Nothing But Heartaches [[Second Version)

[rovereab]

I wonder if anyone knows the background to this version on the song please.

To my ears it is a preferable mono mix to that originally released as the single mix. It has more "sparkle" to it with Flo and Mary much clearer in the background.

Thanks.

[sup_fan]

which version are you referring to? the longer one issued on More Hits EE?

IMO part of the reason NBH "failed" is that it's a bit too much. the song starts out like a bat out of hell and never lets up. there isn't any build between verses or chorus - meaning all instruments and all parts are all playing all the time. the listen never gets a moment to pause.

i think the lyrics are also a little less catchy. Back In My Arms Again told such as clear story and maybe that's lacking here a bit

also "Failed" is very very relative. it's a good song and #11 is a perfectly fine chart position.

There was also stiff competition on the charts. Stones were #1 during July w Satisfaction. I Got You Babe during August and Help in Sept. plus all of the other big songs reaching into the Top 10 during these weeks like Unchained Melody, Like a rolling stone and California Girls. It could be that NBH just wasn't unique enough from the Supremes. the girls had done the impossible with 5 #1 and so a 6th would have had to really push things into new ground. Not sure NBH does that

also they skipped singing it on sullivan when they were again reduced from 2 to 1 songs. Berry decided it was more important to sing You're Nobody rather than NBH

[rovereab]

I'm referring to the song on The Complete Motown Singles Volume 5.

[BayouMotownMan]

I'm referring to the song on The Complete Motown Singles Volume 5.

Motown usually did second and third mixes when a record's sales are lower than expected. To my ears the original mono mix of NBH is rather muddy. It got off to a slow start, for a Supremes single anyway, so HDH did a crisper second mix.

It's one of my all time fav Supremes songs and I never tire of listening to it. Perhaps one of the problems was that the girls were now into their 20s and a song of teenage angst was a bit behind them at that point. And also the structure of the track was too similar to the previous record.

[sup_fan]

I'm referring to the song on The Complete Motown Singles Volume 5.

oh i didn't know that! never got the CMS sets. surprised they didn't include on the Sup singles set

[Bluebrock]

Motown usually did second and third mixes when a record's sales are lower than expected. To my ears the original mono mix of NBH is rather muddy. It got off to a slow start, for a Supremes single anyway, so HDH did a crisper second mix.

It's one of my all time fav Supremes songs and I never tire of listening to it. Perhaps one of the problems was that the girls were now into their 20s and a song of teenage angst was a bit behind them at that point. And also the structure of the track was too similar to the previous record.

I also love it . I prefer it to a few of their no.1's but i recall another member [[prob Sup Fan) listing the top 10 for the week that NBH peaked at 11, and it was a very strong top 10. Sup Fan has got to be the biggest Supremes geek ever [[Hi Sup Fan). This guy has forgotten more than i will ever know about the girls.
I love the simplicity of the song, and i think an Ed Sullivan performance would have pushed it into the top 5, but probably not another no.1.

[BayouMotownMan]

I also love it . I prefer it to a few of their no.1's but i recall another member [[prob Sup Fan) listing the top 10 for the week that NBH peaked at 11, and it was a very strong top 10. Sup Fan has got to be the biggest Supremes geek ever [[Hi Sup Fan). This guy has forgotten more than i will ever know about the girls.
I love the simplicity of the song, and i think an Ed Sullivan performance would have pushed it into the top 5, but probably not another no.1.

I think the Billboard charts misrepresented the song, it made the lower top 10 in almost all the other charts. Sales were disappointing, I think it sold like 250K copies. A successful single but not stellar.

The same is true for Forever Came Today. Barely scraped into Billboard's Top 30, went into the upper top 20 on other charts and even landed at No. 10 on newspaper charts.

[Bluebrock]

I think the Billboard charts misrepresented the song, it made the lower top 10 in almost all the other charts. Sales were disappointing, I think it sold like 250K copies. A successful single but not stellar.

The same is true for Forever Came Today. Barely scraped into Billboard's Top 30, went into the upper top 20 on other charts and even landed at No. 10 on newspaper charts.

I love Forever came today also. Wonderful experimental song

[rovereab]

Motown usually did second and third mixes when a record's sales are lower than expected. To my ears the original mono mix of NBH is rather muddy. It got off to a slow start, for a Supremes single anyway, so HDH did a crisper second mix..

That's interesting, thanks. Are there any other singles that had the slow sales/remix treatment that you can think of please?

#learnsomethingeveryday

[SatansBlues]

That's interesting, thanks. Are there any other singles that had the slow sales/remix treatment that you can think of please?

#learnsomethingeveryday
Shop Around.

[johnjeb]

also they skipped singing it on Sullivan when they were again reduced from 2 to 1 songs. Berry decided it was more important to sing You're Nobody rather than NBH

I think the song that may have been cut would have been Symphony, which was completed by September 30th but not released until October 6th. Heartaches was already off the Billboard chart by the time this Sullivan appearance was aired Live on October 10, 1965.

However, it could be that NBH was rehearsed for the October Sullivan show during mid-September with Motown thinking it would be the group's latest #1 hit. So, plans to sing NBH might have been scrapped when it dropped off the charts and radios rather quickly. [[I recall when The Supremes were at Blinstrub's in Boston in November 1966, Diana mentioned, during a radio interview, that they were "rehearsing" for their upcoming December Sullivan appearance. I thought it interesting that they would already be rehearsing for a TV appearance that was still a few weeks away.)

They did sing NBH on Hullabaloo on September 13, 1965 when the song had just dropped from #11 to #16 on September 11th. If the song was to be given a shot in the arm by a TV appearance this would have been the time.

Hullabaloo was teen-oriented whereas Sullivan was not, especially in 1965. I definitely knew about, and watched, the Hullabaloo show at the time but I knew nothing about this particular Sullivan appearance until almost 20 years later, despite combing the TV listings regularly.

I felt NBH was too similar to BIMAA. I liked it but it didn't grab my attention like BIMAA. I can see why it didn't get to #1, although I was disappointed.

Note: In addition to my Billboard chart books, I referenced Laurent's wonderful Diana Ross site, which saved me time from searching other references in my collection.
http://dianarosssupremes.free.fr/index.htm#Ancre%20Top

[BayouMotownMan]

Bad Weather was remixed three times. The second mix, which I have, brings out Lynda and Mary. The third remix was quite different but was never issued because Jean announced she was leaving

[daviddh]

#11 is not a failure.
Great song but if they did it on sullivan...it would have jumped into top ten.bad decision by bg

[daviddh]

I also remember on several shows they sang mother dear instead. What!

[Circa 1824]

Nbh is a great radio song. Diana sounds great as does the backup vocal.

Maybe an instrumental break might have made it even better. Maybe a remix of it today could add that touch.

[mowest]

Nbh is a great radio song. Diana sounds great as does the backup vocal.

Maybe an instrumental break might have made it even better. Maybe a remix of it today could add that touch.

The alternate version on the expanded “More Hits” album has an instrumental break. Worth checking out.

[TYK1986]

Bad Weather was remixed three times. The second mix, which I have, brings out Lynda and Mary. The third remix was quite different but was never issued because Jean announced she was leaving

Are any of the mixes or other versions of this song released on any of the compilations or 70's Anthology or This is the story set? Or are they all the same? Always think this could have been a good song but something is missing. I love the soul train performance of this song and Jean adds more soul.

As for Nothing but Heartaches. The song is so so. The previous 5 singles seems to have a little story to them and the pace, to me, seems a bit slower and then comes Nothing but Heartaches. It's a nice song but definitely not number 1 material. Same with Mother dear and I think I Hear a Symphony was the perfect choice to get the girl back to the top spot. Not my fave of the number 1's but a good choice.

[144man]

I also remember on several shows they sang mother dear instead. What!

"Mother Dear" was intended to be the next single but was switched to "Nothing But Heartaches" at the last minute. [TCMS]

[daviddh]

Would love to hear this.
Took me a while to like it.not the same sparkle as the others but good.
Always thought it was missing something

[daviddh]

Love the 2nd version on more hits expanded.
Funk bros rocking it

[benross]

Forever Came Today was an interesting song and might have done better had it been the follow-up to Reflections. But it was hampered by two things: First, the background lyrics were impossible to decipher and even then the vocals did not sound like Mary and Cindy [[or Mary and Florence); the backgrounds seemed to have a mechanical, processed sound. Second, one lyric did not scan correctly; when Diana sings "I want the world to see how gently love has shined on me, with everlasting love..." I sometimes want to scream, well, what would you expect love to shine with, ice cream? It would have made more sense if the line had been "how gently you have shined on me..." or "how gently life has shined on me..." or maybe if the line had been reworked entirely. With a few simple [[?) changes, it could have been so much better and could have been remembered with more fondness.

That said, I still like it quite much, and it remains as the only song I dedicated to someone on a call-in radio show where the fifth caller or some such was allowed to give a brief statement along the lines of "Hi, it's Ben, and I want you to play [insert song title] for [insert person's name] and me." [[I wonder whatever happened to Kathy!)

[antceleb12]

I've never been wild about NBH, and I think part of the reason [[and part of the reason why it didn't hit higher) is that there is no hook to it; as sup_fan mentioned there's no ebb and flow between verse and chorus, nor is there a bridge. There underlying beat is very similar to that of their previous #1's such as "Stop" and "BIMAA," but I think HDH did a little too much with this one. The interplay between Diana, Flo & Mary, and the Funk Bros is a bit like they're all competing for attention rather than playing off and complimenting each other.

[RanRan79]

Love "Heartaches". One of my favs.

[sup_fan]

I think the Billboard charts misrepresented the song, it made the lower top 10 in almost all the other charts. Sales were disappointing, I think it sold like 250K copies. A successful single but not stellar.

The same is true for Forever Came Today. Barely scraped into Billboard's Top 30, went into the upper top 20 on other charts and even landed at No. 10 on newspaper charts.

Bayou - do you know what the recording history is of Forever? some fans have claimed that it was unfinished when HDH left motown and so others finished it up. or was it mostly [[or totally) complete by HDH? wonder if the final product is actually what HDH intended?

it's an experimental song but just lacks several of the basics that Gordy typically insisted on. The lyrics are more vague than traditional songs. there isn't a story to the lyric either. the melody isn't as "whistle-able" and the structure of the song isn't as clear so it feels as the the tune just rambles a bit.

compare it to YCHL:

you have two clear verses, bookended by very clear choruses. the song builds to the bridge [[both from an instrumental and a story stand point) and then after the bridge there is a wonderful re-building. the bass kicks off, diana and guitar re-enter. then horns and bg vocals. and then finally everything is cooking again at the final choruses.

[sup_fan]

I also love it . I prefer it to a few of their no.1's but i recall another member [[prob Sup Fan) listing the top 10 for the week that NBH peaked at 11, and it was a very strong top 10. Sup Fan has got to be the biggest Supremes geek ever [[Hi Sup Fan). This guy has forgotten more than i will ever know about the girls.
I love the simplicity of the song, and i think an Ed Sullivan performance would have pushed it into the top 5, but probably not another no.1.

thanks for the callout Blue but i can't take credit for this info. just for trying to document it :) Bayou, Randy, Andy, George and many others [[including you!!) have been so gracious to share their information, stories, histories. i love hearing those and try to remember the fascinating info shared.

many of the stories have ended up in the beautiful EE booklets. all i've done is simply aggregate all of those into 1 excel document and then added in the Billboard data from the charts.

[sup_fan]

Love "Heartaches". One of my favs.

of course you do Ran!!! lolol if for no other reason than it's NOT one of my favs :p lol

[sup_fan]

I've never been wild about NBH, and I think part of the reason [[and part of the reason why it didn't hit higher) is that there is no hook to it; as sup_fan mentioned there's no ebb and flow between verse and chorus, nor is there a bridge. There underlying beat is very similar to that of their previous #1's such as "Stop" and "BIMAA," but I think HDH did a little too much with this one. The interplay between Diana, Flo & Mary, and the Funk Bros is a bit like they're all competing for attention rather than playing off and complimenting each other.

i just re-read his discussion of Nothing on the Diana Ross Project website. Paul agrees it's a solid song and great beat. But his description really sums it up - there's no breathing room. the intro, the verses, the choruses etc are all at 110%. it makes things a bit overwhelming to sit and listen to. your ear becomes tired

maybe this is why it might not have clicked as strongly with the average teen. maybe heavy duty fans bought it because they bought EVERYTHING by the girls. but the average Joe Q Public didn't

[RanRan79]

of course you do Ran!!! lolol if for no other reason than it's NOT one of my favs :p lol

Duh!:cool:

Actually, "Heartaches" really was one of my absolute favs for the longest time and then it sort of fell out of favor with me. I suspect that it may have had something to do with my go to mix [[which was probably whatever compilation I had purchased last) being inferior to whatever album I originally played "Heartaches" [[I'm pretty sure it was the 1967 Greatest Hits first). Anyway, when the alternate made it onto the More Hits expanded, I was hooked again. That's the version I always play. I almost don't remember what the original version sounds like.:o

[TheMotownManiac]

I wonder if anyone knows the background to this version on the song please.

To my ears it is a preferable mono mix to that originally released as the single mix. It has more "sparkle" to it with Flo and Mary much clearer in the background.

Thanks.

i remember the day this came out. I loved it immediately. I was STILL crazy in love with and blasting Back In My Arms Again hourly, but I dug this new one very much. My take on it’s failure:

1) The album came out right after the single, so hundreds of thousands of folks just got the album - that hurt chart positioning, yet still it hit #8 on the sales only Cash Box Pop chart.

2) No TV exposure until it had already peaked didn’t help.

3) melodically, the verse is unimaginative and kind of mundane morphing into redundant by the end of the song. This is in spite of the fact that, IMHO, this is one of Ross’ best vocals - this is not an easy song to bring to life and she excels brilliantly- HDH took a lot of liberties with beat/syllable/note pairings and no one eased those sometimes awkward situations than Ross. The shadings and inflections on NBH are superb.

[daviddh]

Funk bros rock this one.
Love it.still a fav

[144man]

I can't agree that "Nothing But Heartaches" has no hook.
Out of all the Supremes' repertoire, I am more likely to find myself singing the "I can't break away from his arms..." part than anything else they ever recorded.

[SatansBlues]

I loved this song before I knew what the chart position was or the history behind the record. This is pure magical Motown to me. Diana has "that cry" in her voice on this song. In both this song and in Reflections, Diana has "this cry" in her voice that no other singer could sing [[outside of Brenda Holloway).

[TheMotownManiac]

I can't agree that "Nothing But Heartaches" has no hook.
Out of all the Supremes' repertoire, I am more likely to find myself singing the "I can't break away from his arms..." part than anything else they ever recorded.

I agree that the hook is exactly what you mentioned, and her pleading and cooing on the Beautifully crafted chorus is just stupendous. My fave mix is on The ultimate collection CD, and damn it’s good!

I think I was a little rough on the verse melody, but it does get repetitive by the third verse. Still, if this peaked at 11, I feel mother dear would have been lucky to crack the top 20. I just can’t imagine it grabbing ears back in 1965. STIFF Competition was there, get ready, some thing about you, shake me wake me, tracks of my tears… Those seem like top 10 records to me! [[Especially tracks of my tears for heaven’s sake) I’m not surprised that itching didn’t go higher, as much as I love it, It just didn’t come across clear enough on the radio. This is why I don’t think going down for the third time whatever hit as hard as a lot of us think it would. It would need a cleaner mix, and I think this also hurt no matter what sign you are also.

[benross]

My recollection is that Nothing But Heartaches and the first Coke ads were released at the same time. Frequently, the DJ would play a Coke ad, then say, "hey Supremes, stick around and do another song..." and would segue immediately into Nothing But Heartaches; maybe some people thought it was a two-part Coke ad. Or maybe some, like I, bought the More Hits album instead of investing in the 45, then the LP.

As for the instrumental break on More Hits' disc two, I got the impression that it was a bit long because HDH had two ideas and were not sure which part to include; I think that had they decided to use an instrumental break, HDH would have edited out either the first half or the second half of what was there [[much as the extra choruses in the extended version of Reflections on Number 1s were edited, perfectly, after the recording was completed; the longer versions gave HDH several options as they considered the precise tight construction they desired).

[sup_fan]

3 #1 singles from 1 lp is a challenge. many albums don't even release 3 singles, period!
yes they did it with WDOLG but that was also right when the group, quite literally, exploded onto the scene. by summer of 65 they were hugely popular but also established. some of the newness had worn off a little.

I think you're right that the sales of More Hits eroded some of the sales potential for NBH. they were released within a week of each other. Plus More Hits come out nearly a year after the WDOLG album. yes you had Liverpool and those other concept albums. but now you had an lp of just Sup songs! the album sold well over 1,000,000 so i think fans switched to the lp