Sing Rodgers & Hart

[antceleb12]

I just wanted to take a moment to throw some appreciation to not only one of my favorite Supremes albums, but one of my favorite of Motown's "themed" albums, Sing Rodgers & Hart. It's truly one of the group's greatest and most masterful efforts and so many of the tracks from the sessions showcase the group's harmony. Florence has never sounded better, Diana's readings are quite tasteful and delicious, and Mary delivers a wonderful lead vocal.

In 2002 we finally got treated to a complete release of the full R&H sessions that were unfortunately paired down to a single album upon its original release. There are just a couple of things I would like to have seen, and that is maybe some alternate mixes to bring up Flo and Mary a little more, and maybe some extended fades. I know R&H has been reissued in different forms over the years, but largely the mixes have remained the same. I recently came across this version of "Lover," which is one of my favorite tracks on the albums, and the fade is extended by an additional 15 seconds, revealing further delicious interplay between Flo/Mary and Diana.

My question is two-fold: does anyone happen to know on which release or compilation this may have been included on, and are there any other alternate/extended mixes of these sessions that were not included on the Complete Recordings release?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9icn002GdOw

And as a bonus, let's also talk about their brilliant performance of "Falling in Love with Love" with Bobby Darin. Listen to them soar - particularly Florence - on "such a juvenile fancy." The girls were really at their peak at this time!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nhRUw7DYq_c

[carlo]

Thanks for sharing, antceleb12. This extended alternate version of "Lover" is also new to me! Not sure how I missed that after all of these years, but it's a nice surprise! Perhaps this has been discussed in the past on this forum, but it definitely missed my radar. Doing some quick research by looking at time lengths of tracks on Discogs between the different versions of this album, it looks like this particular version of Lover was included on the 1987 CD release of the Rodgers and Hart album, which explains why I missed this, as I only have the 2002 reissue on CD.

[carlo]

...and looking at the booklet credits on Discogs, it says that our George Solomon was a production assistant for the 1987 release, so knowing him and his naughty ways, it doesn't surprise me that he likely sneaked this alternate version onto this particular release :)

[aarondillon2011@gmail.com]

...and looking at the booklet credits on Discogs, it says that our George Solomon was a production assistant for the 1987 release, so knowing him and his naughty ways, it doesn't surprise me that he likely sneaked this alternate version onto this particular release :)

I believe that version of Lover was also released on the Love CD collection.

[Jaap]

<< In 2002 we finally got treated to a complete release of the full R&H sessions that were unfortunately paired down to a single album upon its original release. >>

As Carlo already pointed out, all unreleased songs [[except "I Could Write A Book") were released in 1987 as "The Rodgers and Hart Collection".

18379
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[Laurent]

The mixes on the CDs The Rodgers and Hart Collection [[1987) and the "Complete Recordings" [[2002) are not the same and are also different than the original LP.
Also, other tracks differ by their lengh.
It's all listed here :

http://dianarosssupremes.free.fr/DiscoLP-Supremes-1.htm#26%20Rodgers%20and%20Hart

[JohnnyB]

The mixes on the CDs The Rodgers and Hart Collection [[1987) and the "Complete Recordings" [[2002) are not the same and are also different than the original LP.
Also, other tracks differ by their lengh.
It's all listed here :

http://dianarosssupremes.free.fr/DiscoLP-Supremes-1.htm#26%20Rodgers%20and%20Hart


The 1987 collection quickly became a favorite of mine and yes, the extended fades on Lover, My Heart Stood Still and Lover were a welcomed surprise. My only copy of R&H was a used mono LP until this release. I was amazed at the sound quality of the remastered CD; I was able to hear M/F and instrumentation I’d not heard previously. This made me love the collection even more. I actually prefer the sequencing of the 1987 release which gradually moves from the ballads to the more uptempo selections.

[RanRan79]

Never was a particular fan of this album. Half the songs I still skip. I find the outtakes from the album to, for the most part, be superior to what made the album. Cuts like "Blue Room", "Manhattan", "There's a Small Hotel", absolutely dope stuff that I would've added to the original album and canned some of the tracks that made it. However, vocally the entire session is among some of the group's best work, and as a fan of the group's sound, the album sessions are a real treat to dive into, including "Lover".

The performance with Bobby Darin is why I love the Supremes. Diana may be the "all" for some of y'all when it comes to the group's appeal, but the entirety of the entity is why I dig them so much and they continue to bring me so much musical joy. The vocal chemistry between the three of them is on full display in this clip, as is their three very different and distinctive voices, and the personality contained within. Plus, if you listen closely, Flo ad libs a couple of times and for me that's always a treat.

[antceleb12]

Thanks for sharing, antceleb12. This extended alternate version of "Lover" is also new to me! Not sure how I missed that after all of these years, but it's a nice surprise! Perhaps this has been discussed in the past on this forum, but it definitely missed my radar. Doing some quick research by looking at time lengths of tracks on Discogs between the different versions of this album, it looks like this particular version of Lover was included on the 1987 CD release of the Rodgers and Hart album, which explains why I missed this, as I only have the 2002 reissue on CD.

THANK YOU Carlo! Your wealth of Supremes knowledge is truly invaluable. I did not realize the 1987 release included alternate mixes, but knowing that George was in on it I'm not at all surprised! He always does phenomenal, pain-staking work at giving us truly remarkable repackaging of already classic albums.

[antceleb12]

<< In 2002 we finally got treated to a complete release of the full R&H sessions that were unfortunately paired down to a single album upon its original release. >>

As Carlo already pointed out, all unreleased songs [[except "I Could Write A Book") were released in 1987 as "The Rodgers and Hart Collection".



Thank you Jaap. I completely forgot about this release. I think the 2002 reissue eclipsed all previous re-issues. I can't say I'm at all a fan of this "new" cover art though...

[antceleb12]

The 1987 collection quickly became a favorite of mine and yes, the extended fades on Lover, My Heart Stood Still and Lover were a welcomed surprise. My only copy of R&H was a used mono LP until this release. I was amazed at the sound quality of the remastered CD; I was able to hear M/F and instrumentation I’d not heard previously. This made me love the collection even more. I actually prefer the sequencing of the 1987 release which gradually moves from the ballads to the more uptempo selections.

It sounds like the 1987 collection seems to be the definitive version of the album. I'll have to hunt down a copy of this.

[antceleb12]

Never was a particular fan of this album. Half the songs I still skip. I find the outtakes from the album to, for the most part, be superior to what made the album. Cuts like "Blue Room", "Manhattan", "There's a Small Hotel", absolutely dope stuff that I would've added to the original album and canned some of the tracks that made it. However, vocally the entire session is among some of the group's best work, and as a fan of the group's sound, the album sessions are a real treat to dive into, including "Lover".

The performance with Bobby Darin is why I love the Supremes. Diana may be the "all" for some of y'all when it comes to the group's appeal, but the entirety of the entity is why I dig them so much and they continue to bring me so much musical joy. The vocal chemistry between the three of them is on full display in this clip, as is their three very different and distinctive voices, and the personality contained within. Plus, if you listen closely, Flo ad libs a couple of times and for me that's always a treat.

I would tend to agree with you that the "deep cuts" not included on the original release are far meatier than what we were originally given, in great part due to that what they included tended to be material that had more Diana and less group. "Blue Room" and "Manhattan" are absolute gems.

Absolutely agree with you as well on FILWL. This performance in particular [[as well as the other performances from the R&H special) is probably the best example of the group's power as a trio. Diana shines in her interpretation of the lyric, Mary has such presence, and Florence's vocals really shine through. A tight performance from all three.

[George Solomon]

I asked Deke Richards to come in and remix the entire Rodgers & Hart sessions. It was his first trip back to Motown in many years. I was with him the entire time and it was a total pleasure for me. We extended every fade as long as possible and brought up Mary and Flo whenever possible. I wanted the CD to start slow and have the tempo build. I don't remember specifically why "I Could Write A Book" was left off. It could have been we were out of room. CD's were shorter then. I also remember it was John Silva's least favorite as he thought it was too similar to "This Can't Be Love" and "Johnny One Note."
Ted LeMaster was an artist who loved Diana and The Supremes. He did that black and white portrait you often see in Mary's house [[the classic 3 faces together). He was also known for doing portraits of Marilyn Monroe, Bette Davis and Barbra Streisand. I asked him to do a new portrait for this collection. It was a huge piece of art. I thought it was going to be the entire cover. The art department didn't like it and used a tiny version surrounded by the artwork that you see.
This was an exciting time as we were finally getting material we never knew existed. Starting with the 25th Anniversary, The Rodgers and Hart Collection and then Never Before Released Masters.

[sup_fan]

I asked Deke Richards to come in and remix the entire Rodgers & Hart sessions. It was his first trip back to Motown in many years. I was with him the entire time and it was a total pleasure for me. We extended every fade as long as possible and brought up Mary and Flo whenever possible. I wanted the CD to start slow and have the tempo build. I don't remember specifically why "I Could Write A Book" was left off. It could have been we were out of room. CD's were shorter then. I also remember it was John Silva's least favorite as he thought it was too similar to "This Can't Be Love" and "Johnny One Note."
Ted LeMaster was an artist who loved Diana and The Supremes. He did that black and white portrait you often see in Mary's house [[the classic 3 faces together). He was also known for doing portraits of Marilyn Monroe, Bette Davis and Barbra Streisand. I asked him to do a new portrait for this collection. It was a huge piece of art. I thought it was going to be the entire cover. The art department didn't like it and used a tiny version surrounded by the artwork that you see.
This was an exciting time as we were finally getting material we never knew existed. Starting with the 25th Anniversary, The Rodgers and Hart Collection and then Never Before Released Masters.

i was thrilled to find this cd when it first came out. of course i already had 25th Anniv so had heard Blue and Manhat. and we all knew so many were cut. so getting them was so exciting.

Same with NBRM. bought that up the instant i found it. and it was heavy on Disney cuts so that was great to get most of that album too

[sup_fan]

I just wanted to take a moment to throw some appreciation to not only one of my favorite Supremes albums, but one of my favorite of Motown's "themed" albums, Sing Rodgers & Hart. It's truly one of the group's greatest and most masterful efforts and so many of the tracks from the sessions showcase the group's harmony. Florence has never sounded better, Diana's readings are quite tasteful and delicious, and Mary delivers a wonderful lead vocal.

In 2002 we finally got treated to a complete release of the full R&H sessions that were unfortunately paired down to a single album upon its original release. There are just a couple of things I would like to have seen, and that is maybe some alternate mixes to bring up Flo and Mary a little more, and maybe some extended fades. I know R&H has been reissued in different forms over the years, but largely the mixes have remained the same. I recently came across this version of "Lover," which is one of my favorite tracks on the albums, and the fade is extended by an additional 15 seconds, revealing further delicious interplay between Flo/Mary and Diana.

My question is two-fold: does anyone happen to know on which release or compilation this may have been included on, and are there any other alternate/extended mixes of these sessions that were not included on the Complete Recordings release?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9icn002GdOw

And as a bonus, let's also talk about their brilliant performance of "Falling in Love with Love" with Bobby Darin. Listen to them soar - particularly Florence - on "such a juvenile fancy." The girls were really at their peak at this time!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nhRUw7DYq_c

also i believe two of the songs on the 02 release were different versions from the 87 version. Bewitched and You Took Advantage

[Bluebrock]

also i believe two of the songs on the 02 release were different versions from the 87 version. Bewitched and You Took Advantage

Maybe we need an expanded expanded edition!. It's a wonderful album. Up there with their very best. Over to you George.....

[carlo]

THANK YOU Carlo! Your wealth of Supremes knowledge is truly invaluable. I did not realize the 1987 release included alternate mixes, but knowing that George was in on it I'm not at all surprised! He always does phenomenal, pain-staking work at giving us truly remarkable repackaging of already classic albums.

Glad to help, antceleb12 :) I agree with you. George and Andy have always worked hard to give us fans what we want.

Thanks for that history, George, on the 1987 release. I didn't know about Deke remixing the album, as well as the neat factoid on the cover art!

[daviddh]

Love this collection.one of their best albums

[antceleb12]

I asked Deke Richards to come in and remix the entire Rodgers & Hart sessions. It was his first trip back to Motown in many years. I was with him the entire time and it was a total pleasure for me. We extended every fade as long as possible and brought up Mary and Flo whenever possible. I wanted the CD to start slow and have the tempo build. I don't remember specifically why "I Could Write A Book" was left off. It could have been we were out of room. CD's were shorter then. I also remember it was John Silva's least favorite as he thought it was too similar to "This Can't Be Love" and "Johnny One Note."
Ted LeMaster was an artist who loved Diana and The Supremes. He did that black and white portrait you often see in Mary's house [[the classic 3 faces together). He was also known for doing portraits of Marilyn Monroe, Bette Davis and Barbra Streisand. I asked him to do a new portrait for this collection. It was a huge piece of art. I thought it was going to be the entire cover. The art department didn't like it and used a tiny version surrounded by the artwork that you see.
This was an exciting time as we were finally getting material we never knew existed. Starting with the 25th Anniversary, The Rodgers and Hart Collection and then Never Before Released Masters.

Thank you George! It's wonderful to get the history of the project from you. It's funny, I've been a Motown and Supremes fan for a couple decades and I'm somehow just stumbling across the '87 release after all these years. I guess I assumed that the 2002 repackaging was the definitive version, but after stumbling across the extended fade on "Lover" I knew I was missing something. Thank you for putting together such a wonderful package; based off of what I'm reading here it sounds like my wishes from the 2002 edition were taken care of in the 1987 edition. :D

[nomis]

Apparently both Diana and Florence pushed to have "Manhattan" included on the original release...

[Bluebrock]

Apparently both Diana and Florence pushed to have "Manhattan" included on the original release...
Not 100% sure about Florence, but there is every reason to think she did, and i do know for sure that Diana most certainly did.

[antceleb12]

Apparently both Diana and Florence pushed to have "Manhattan" included on the original release...

Oh really? Where did did you hear this?

[Ollie9]

Not 100% sure about Florence, but there is every reason to think she did, and i do know for sure that Diana most certainly did.

I wonder why Diana she liked this particular song so much?. Was it not intended as a Florence solo, or is that perhaps just speculation?.

[Bluebrock]

I wonder why Diana she liked this particular song so much?. Was it not intended as a Florence solo, or is that perhaps just speculation?.
It's all down to personal choice Ollie. There doesn't have to be a particular reason why someone would prefer one particular song to another.
I have heard the speculation regarding it originally being slated as a Flo lead, but i honestly do not know if there was any truth in the story, but i do recall Diana telling me how both she and Flo asked Berry to include it on the original release. I recall being surprised by this revelation because Diana was never one to discuss vaulted tracks or even released tracks in any detail.
I don't think i asked her why she so liked it, or if i did i foolishly did not write in my journal at the time, but i can certainly confirm how much she loved that song.

[Bluebrock]

Not 100% sure about Florence, but there is every reason to think she did, and i do know for sure that Diana most certainly did.
Having re-read my journal i did indeed write that both Diana and Flo did push for it's inclusion.
Those journals are much more reliable than my memory! Thank heavens i spent so many hours writing them. When i look back at them i read things i had totally forgot about!

[nomis]

Bluebrock - thats wonderful you kept journals of information

[SatansBlues]

Having re-read my journal i did indeed write that both Diana and Flo did push for it's inclusion.
Those journals are much more reliable than my memory! Thank heavens i spent so many hours writing them. When i look back at them i read things i had totally forgot about!
Hey Bluebrock- do you know if Diana has kept up with the release of all these unreleased Supreme tracks or solo tracks? Has UM been sending her copies of these releases?

[Bluebrock]

Hey Bluebrock- do you know if Diana has kept up with the release of all these unreleased Supreme tracks or solo tracks? Has UM been sending her copies of these releases?
I do believe George and Co have provided her with copies of the expanded editions but she remains none too keen on publicly commenting on them. I'm sure George will correct me if this is not the case.

[SatansBlues]

I do believe George and Co have provided her with copies of the expanded editions but she remains none too keen on publicly commenting on them. I'm sure George will correct me if this is not the case.
Any idea why she doesn't comment on them? Is it like some movie actors who don't watch their own movies once they're complete?

[sup_fan]

It's all down to personal choice Ollie. There doesn't have to be a particular reason why someone would prefer one particular song to another.
I have heard the speculation regarding it originally being slated as a Flo lead, but i honestly do not know if there was any truth in the story, but i do recall Diana telling me how both she and Flo asked Berry to include it on the original release. I recall being surprised by this revelation because Diana was never one to discuss vaulted tracks or even released tracks in any detail.
I don't think i asked her why she so liked it, or if i did i foolishly did not write in my journal at the time, but i can certainly confirm how much she loved that song.

it is a wonderful track. as for the flo solo, while it would seem logical to me to have that way, i certainly don't know for sure. There appear to be a couple odd edits of where Flo's vocal cuts off. that's part of my rationale. they had a full Flo lead and decided [[perhaps due to the tenuous nature of the group at that time) to go ahead and have Di do a lead too. they then edited Flo's part as a duet. most of the sessions were in late Oct although a few were done in Jan 67, like Dancing on the ceiling and You Took advantage. Also there's the odd edit at the end where Flo holds her note much longer than Diana.

again this is all speculation

very interesting that both F and D pushed for it's inclusion. not to stir the pot, but especially around Diana. and she [[according to Randy's book) pushed for mary to sing the Falling in Love part. assuming both of these are true, this paints a far more inclusive and diplomatic Diana than other stories have created. she seems to have wanted a group presentation with this album.

As for timing, the album was released on 5/22/67. especially given the problems in April of that year, i'm not the least bit surprised Manhattan was cut. be interesting to see if there were alt lineups for the album as they toyed with the double disc set and then cut it to one

[Ollie9]

it is a wonderful track. as for the flo solo, while it would seem logical to me to have that way, i certainly don't know for sure. There appear to be a couple odd edits of where Flo's vocal cuts off. that's part of my rationale. they had a full Flo lead and decided [[perhaps due to the tenuous nature of the group at that time) to go ahead and have Di do a lead too. they then edited Flo's part as a duet. most of the sessions were in late Oct although a few were done in Jan 67, like Dancing on the ceiling and You Took advantage. Also there's the odd edit at the end where Flo holds her note much longer than Diana.

again this is all speculation

very interesting that both F and D pushed for it's inclusion. not to stir the pot, but especially around Diana. and she [[according to Randy's book) pushed for mary to sing the Falling in Love part. assuming both of these are true, this paints a far more inclusive and diplomatic Diana than other stories have created. she seems to have wanted a group presentation with this album.

As for timing, the album was released on 5/22/67. especially given the problems in April of that year, i'm not the least bit surprised Manhattan was cut. be interesting to see if there were alt lineups for the album as they toyed with the double disc set and then cut it to one

I agree there exists some odd edits, making the song sound a ‘tad disjointed to me. For this reason alone l have never been a huge a fan of the song as perhaps l might. I feel sure there is a complete Flo lead on this one. I now actually think Flo’s vocal style would have been well suited to ‘Manhattan’, perhaps more so then Diana. As you mention, with Flo’s position in the group being a little tenuous at the time it probably made sense for the song to have been given to M’s Ross.

[Bluebrock]

Bluebrock - thats wonderful you kept journals of information

Thank you very much nomis.
I burned the midnight oil on many occasions as i wrote the events of the day whilst they remained fresh in my mind. Sometimes i survived on 2 or 3 hours sleep per night, but it was well worthwhile. I had forgotten so much of what happened. I have been catching up on my journals which are much easier to read now my wonderful grandson has transfered everything to a digital format. In the event of my demise they are safely stored to be used for whatever purpose. I did not go around telling many people about my journals. I had kept a diary since 1974, but it was 1985 that i began to seriously put pen to paper and record just about all of my professional encounters. Some of them make me laugh as i re-read them whilst others genuinely make me cry as i re-live some awful personal tragedies which are not suitable subjects to be discussed on this forum.
Memories last longer than dreams, and i count myself fortunate to have met so many people who had a profound effect upon my life, some in a positive way and others in a very negative way, but has rarely if ever been dull. It's been a blast. Thank you for your interest.

[Bluebrock]

Any idea why she doesn't comment on them? Is it like some movie actors who don't watch their own movies once they're complete?

It is just her way. It wouldn't be my way, but it is easier to get an audience with the Pope than it is to get a quote out of Ms Ross. That situation is unlikely to change.

[sup_fan]

back in the mid 90s, i was in Columbus, OH and attended a record convention. Lots and lots of vendors selling all sorts of collectibles, memorabilia, albums, etc.

there was a booth from some collectible store in Detroit. they had lots of the usual things but they showed me a reel to reel tape of Sups R&H. it appeared to be a studio reel - not the r2r you'd buy in the store of the R&H album. was it real or not - who knows. but it had the front of the box with the label and writing on it. just like we've seen some pics of Andy in the vault with the tapes. I was desperate to buy it but they wanted over $1000 for it which was absolutely WAY beyond anything i could have afforded. perhaps i should have tried to ply some "trade' with them, being that i was young and handsome at the time lolololol

but oh well - no idea what happened with it

[George Solomon]

When Andy gave Miss Ross a copy of A Go Go Expanded after a concert in New York she was very gracious and said "this is beautiful. I want all of these." And when they took the photo, she wasn't asked to do this but she picked up the CD and featured it in the picture. All the expanded editions are sent to her but I'm never sure if she sees them [[or hears them). When I gave her a copy of Touch Me In The Morning Expanded at one of her concerts in Vegas, she was polite and said, "why don't you keep it, I'm sure the kids already have it." Eventually, she did take it. I just think it boils down to some of these things from the past being more prioritized by fans than the artists.

About Rodgers & Hart: I love this album and I know Andy especially would really like to do an Ultimate Edition including everything. It's another on the list. Let's hope we all live long enough!

I don't know if the double album was actually assembled. I do know there is a reel with 11 of the unused tracks mixed in mono. Possibly a planned Rodgers & Hart Volume 2? The sequence on the reel was, Wait Till You See Him, Spring Is Here, I Didn't Even Know What Time It Was, Johnny One Note, It Never Entered My Mind, I Could Write A Book, There's A Small Hotel, Bewitched, Little Girl Blue, The Blue Room, and Manhattan. It seems they didn't mix You Took Advantage Of Me because it wasn't actually finished. You can hear on the 2002 mix a fairly long instrumental break where Diana was to have a spoken passage. She started it but gave it up and said something like, "OK, go back," as if she'd do it again but there doesn't seem to be another take. When Deke mixed it in the 80s, he made an edit and just bypassed that whole section. Perhaps they didn't mix With A Song In My Heart back then because it was already on the Symphony album?

I don't want to rain on anyone's parade [[no plug intended) but with Manhattan, what you're hearing is how it was recorded. There is a lead track with Diana's vocal and a background track with Mary and Florence. Mary is actually singing every line along with Flo. It's just that Florence's voice cuts through in the mix and it sounds more like a Diana, Florence duet. It's the same with the alternate Bewitched Bothered and Bewildered. Mary is also singing in all the same places with Florence but Flo's voice dominates. I think these were very good sessions for Florence and having Mary on Falling In Love With Love was great also. It made this a real "Supremes" album as we were leaving the era of the original trio.

[antceleb12]

I don't want to rain on anyone's parade [[no plug intended) but with Manhattan, what you're hearing is how it was recorded. There is a lead track with Diana's vocal and a background track with Mary and Florence. Mary is actually singing every line along with Flo. It's just that Florence's voice cuts through in the mix and it sounds more like a Diana, Florence duet. It's the same with the alternate Bewitched Bothered and Bewildered. Mary is also singing in all the same places with Florence but Flo's voice dominates. I think these were very good sessions for Florence and having Mary on Falling In Love With Love was great also. It made this a real "Supremes" album as we were leaving the era of the original trio.

You've just confirmed what I've suspected for a long time. I caught what I thought was Mary by happenstance on one of my umpteenth listens and suspected I heard Mary. I never considered this to be a D&F duet anyway, because the only part Flo "solos" on is the long-held note at the end.

For anyone curious, you can catch Mary VERY briefly at 2:50 right at the very end of "aisle of," right before the final "joy" that Flo holds.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oaPYtPN1jBE

[nomis]

Mary & Diana sound fantastic together on "Falling In Love With Love" its the perfect song for their blend..Taraborelli writes how Berry was blown away hearing the finished LP

[floyjoy678]

Speaking of Falling In Love With Love, anyone ever notice Flo is singing the lower harmony on that one? Also is that Diana singing in the background with her for the second verse or is it Flo and Mary like with Come And Get These Memories?

[SatansBlues]

The alternate version of Bewitched, Bothered and Bewildered always sounded like a duet between Diana and Florence, and it's quite beautiful.


https://youtu.be/VioQQbHHpaw

[nomis]

Floyjoy678 - I believe its Diana singing on the second verse

[sup_fan]

When Andy gave Miss Ross a copy of A Go Go Expanded after a concert in New York she was very gracious and said "this is beautiful. I want all of these." And when they took the photo, she wasn't asked to do this but she picked up the CD and featured it in the picture. All the expanded editions are sent to her but I'm never sure if she sees them [[or hears them). When I gave her a copy of Touch Me In The Morning Expanded at one of her concerts in Vegas, she was polite and said, "why don't you keep it, I'm sure the kids already have it." Eventually, she did take it. I just think it boils down to some of these things from the past being more prioritized by fans than the artists.

About Rodgers & Hart: I love this album and I know Andy especially would really like to do an Ultimate Edition including everything. It's another on the list. Let's hope we all live long enough!

I don't know if the double album was actually assembled. I do know there is a reel with 11 of the unused tracks mixed in mono. Possibly a planned Rodgers & Hart Volume 2? The sequence on the reel was, Wait Till You See Him, Spring Is Here, I Didn't Even Know What Time It Was, Johnny One Note, It Never Entered My Mind, I Could Write A Book, There's A Small Hotel, Bewitched, Little Girl Blue, The Blue Room, and Manhattan. It seems they didn't mix You Took Advantage Of Me because it wasn't actually finished. You can hear on the 2002 mix a fairly long instrumental break where Diana was to have a spoken passage. She started it but gave it up and said something like, "OK, go back," as if she'd do it again but there doesn't seem to be another take. When Deke mixed it in the 80s, he made an edit and just bypassed that whole section. Perhaps they didn't mix With A Song In My Heart back then because it was already on the Symphony album?

I don't want to rain on anyone's parade [[no plug intended) but with Manhattan, what you're hearing is how it was recorded. There is a lead track with Diana's vocal and a background track with Mary and Florence. Mary is actually singing every line along with Flo. It's just that Florence's voice cuts through in the mix and it sounds more like a Diana, Florence duet. It's the same with the alternate Bewitched Bothered and Bewildered. Mary is also singing in all the same places with Florence but Flo's voice dominates. I think these were very good sessions for Florence and having Mary on Falling In Love With Love was great also. It made this a real "Supremes" album as we were leaving the era of the original trio.

once again - such wonderful info George. I'll change my theory now and Manhattan is a group tune :)

as for You Took Advantage, according to my nerd spreadsheet of Sup data lol You Took Advantage was NOT recording during the main sessions for R&H.


10/21/66 - 10/24/66 - R&H sessions
1/5/67 - Dancing on the Ceiling lead vocals
1/31/67 - You Took Advantage lead and bg vocals

[antceleb12]

Speaking of Falling In Love With Love, anyone ever notice Flo is singing the lower harmony on that one? Also is that Diana singing in the background with her for the second verse or is it Flo and Mary like with Come And Get These Memories?

I don't think you're wrong here. I've noticed in later DMF recordings, particularly on this album, that Florence takes a lower harmony sometimes [[listen to later live recordings of "I Hear a Symphony" and Flo doesn't blast out the last note like she does in earlier performances). With "FILWL" I've almost found it difficult to distinguish whose voice I was hearing, which is a sign that their blend is reeaalllyyy good.

[sup_fan]

I don't think you're wrong here. I've noticed in later DMF recordings, particularly on this album, that Florence takes a lower harmony sometimes [[listen to later live recordings of "I Hear a Symphony" and Flo doesn't blast out the last note like she does in earlier performances). With "FILWL" I've almost found it difficult to distinguish whose voice I was hearing, which is a sign that their blend is reeaalllyyy good.

i've tried to piece the voices apart too and yes! that is a tight blend!!

There are some other songs where Flo takes the middle note. Especially if the higher note tends to fall [[like at the end of a song) with the melody. Like their arrangement of Somewhere. at the end Flo isn't blasting some stratospheric note. she's singing the middle

[Ollie9]

Other then her superb vocal on “Ain't That Good News”, i personally consider her work on the R &H album to be Florence’s finest hour.
As George points out, this was the last real, collective group effort from the original line up so a DEFINITIVE R&H set seems appropriate, complete with alternate vocal takes etc etc.

[nomis]

some of my very favourite supremes songs are the harmonies from mary & florence - Im in love again", "Mister sandman" "Get Ready" "Baby I need your loving"..i would have thought with todays technology it would be possible to isolate the vocals i would love to hear Diana or Mary & florences vocals acapella so far we had a couple on a Supremes dvd as a dj myself acapella vocals can be added to remixes,stage shows etc..

[sup_fan]

some of my very favourite supremes songs are the harmonies from mary & florence - Im in love again", "Mister sandman" "Get Ready" "Baby I need your loving"..i would have thought with todays technology it would be possible to isolate the vocals i would love to hear Diana or Mary & florences vocals acapella so far we had a couple on a Supremes dvd as a dj myself acapella vocals can be added to remixes,stage shows etc..

i asked a similar question about the Jimmy Webb set. the explanation there probably applied here. with JW, the Blossoms and the Supremes apparently recorded together. so there's no way to remove the non-Sup voices since they're all on the same track.

in the 60s M and F would have been recorded together too so you couldn't separate them from each other but if they later added the A's, of course that could be separated.

And sometimes if the mic was picking up one girl more than the other, you could get the results like Manhattan or even WDOLG. where it's hard to pick up the other

[RanRan79]

I definitely noticed there were times during the R&H cuts that Flo is on the bottom. I suspect it is here that she might have been having some vocal issues. But it all does come across so beautifully.

One of the mysteries for me is "Good News". Why in the world is Diana doing the lower part of the harmony and Mary on top. The backing vocal would've sounded so much better with them reversed. Trying something different maybe? I don't know.

[sup_fan]

I definitely noticed there were times during the R&H cuts that Flo is on the bottom. I suspect it is here that she might have been having some vocal issues. But it all does come across so beautifully.

One of the mysteries for me is "Good News". Why in the world is Diana doing the lower part of the harmony and Mary on top. The backing vocal would've sounded so much better with them reversed. Trying something different maybe? I don't know.

typically parts are written so that there is some logic in the progression of notes a singer sings. Just because Mary is the alto doesn't mean that in every chord of every song she sings the bottom note. to do so would be crazy hard for the singer because they might have to make unusual or especially difficult vocal jumps from note to note. you write out each part so that the 1) have an appropriate progression and 2) the 3 parts form the chords.

There are parts in Back In My Arms Again during the choruses where Diana and Mary sing the same notes, where Mary sings below Diana and where Mary actually sings above Diana. Technically, Flo is singing the "tonic" of the chord during the chorus except she isn't singing it low but rather high. the tonic is the root of the chord, the base. but it isn't always the bass.

[SatansBlues]

Thou Swell - Ed Sullivan Show November 19, 1967. First time seeing this today.


https://youtu.be/K0QM5DdTOfc

[RanRan79]

typically parts are written so that there is some logic in the progression of notes a singer sings. Just because Mary is the alto doesn't mean that in every chord of every song she sings the bottom note. to do so would be crazy hard for the singer because they might have to make unusual or especially difficult vocal jumps from note to note. you write out each part so that the 1) have an appropriate progression and 2) the 3 parts form the chords.

There are parts in Back In My Arms Again during the choruses where Diana and Mary sing the same notes, where Mary sings below Diana and where Mary actually sings above Diana. Technically, Flo is singing the "tonic" of the chord during the chorus except she isn't singing it low but rather high. the tonic is the root of the chord, the base. but it isn't always the bass.

My point being the background vocals on "Good News" aren't among their best. Mary is shouting over Diana, when the harmony would've sounded better the other way around. Not necessarily that Diana should've shouted, but Mary definitely shouldn't have been shouting. I am not a fan of Mary shouting, the Farewell album being another case of this.

[sup_fan]

My point being the background vocals on "Good News" aren't among their best. Mary is shouting over Diana, when the harmony would've sounded better the other way around. Not necessarily that Diana should've shouted, but Mary definitely shouldn't have been shouting. I am not a fan of Mary shouting, the Farewell album being another case of this.

i just listened to Good News again and i don't hear mary on the top note. I do hear Mary louder in the background than Diana. But it definitely sounds like Mary is singing the bottom, Flo's lead lines are in the middle and Diana is above with the soprano background.

Mary's voice is VERY prominent in the bg for Good News. the overall mixing of the song isn't as polished as other sup work at the time. most likely that's the influence of recording this on the west coast.

my understanding of Motown history is that motown engineers jimmyrigged a multi track recording system well ahead of others doing this. that allowed them to control and balance much more of the music

[sup_fan]

I definitely noticed there were times during the R&H cuts that Flo is on the bottom. I suspect it is here that she might have been having some vocal issues. But it all does come across so beautifully.

One of the mysteries for me is "Good News". Why in the world is Diana doing the lower part of the harmony and Mary on top. The backing vocal would've sounded so much better with them reversed. Trying something different maybe? I don't know.

Ran - i stand corrected. was chatting with George and you're right. Diana IS singing the bottom harmony. I swear it sounds the other way around but he confirmed that on the tapes you can really tell. odd but hey - always fun to learn these types of things

so have an early christmas present hehehehe you were right and i was wrong :D

[kenneth]

I just wanted to mention that this thread is a perfect example of how valuable the input is on this forum, from not only fellow music fans but our expert professionals, engineers and producers as well. What a wealth of great information.

I remember finding the 1987 CD version of the album long before I had any idea there were any such things left in the vault. I was thrilled to have it. I do agree that the CDs length is probably an issue regarding the one song that didn’t make it, as my recollection is that even the “Dead space“ between the tracks was very very brief, I’m sure to fit as much music on the CD as possible.

But how fascinating it is to learn of these variations of an album I’ve really come to love a great deal. Of course when I was young I never played it; now the concept albums of the Supremes are amongst my very favorites.

And just on a more somber note. I must say I do miss Marv’s input on many of these questions. I think he was a bigger part of the forum than I even realized before. Let’s all remember those we’ve lost this year and treasure those who are still with us.

Thanks all of you for making this forum such a great place.

[RanRan79]

so have an early christmas present hehehehe you were right and i was wrong :D

Admitting it now is the first step to admitting it the other 364 days of the year when this occurs. Good luck on your journey.:cool:

[sup_fan]

Admitting it now is the first step to admitting it the other 364 days of the year when this occurs. Good luck on your journey.:cool:

lololol at least I'll have the music to help be through the dark days LOL

[Bluebrock]

I just wanted to mention that this thread is a perfect example of how valuable the input is on this forum, from not only fellow music fans but our expert professionals, engineers and producers as well. What a wealth of great information.

I remember finding the 1987 CD version of the album long before I had any idea there were any such things left in the vault. I was thrilled to have it. I do agree that the CDs length is probably an issue regarding the one song that didn’t make it, as my recollection is that even the “Dead space“ between the tracks was very very brief, I’m sure to fit as much music on the CD as possible.

But how fascinating it is to learn of these variations of an album I’ve really come to love a great deal. Of course when I was young I never played it; now the concept albums of the Supremes are amongst my very favorites.

And just on a more somber note. I must say I do miss Marv’s input on many of these questions. I think he was a bigger part of the forum than I even realized before. Let’s all remember those we’ve lost this year and treasure those who are still with us.

Thanks all of you for making this forum such a great place.

I think the forum is in a good place at the moment. It is generally a peaceful and respectful place to visit. Some members are more active than others, and some members prefer to read the posts rather than pass comment. We are all here for the love of the music, and in these dark and depressing times it is important we are here to inform, entertain and support fellow members. It is up to us to ensure it stays that way.

[RanRan79]

lololol at least I'll have the music to help be through the dark days LOL

"Let the music play...":p