Mary & Cindy-The Supremes

[jim aka jtigre99]

I did not become a fan until the new Supremes but still as a very young child only remembered Mary and Cindy as the Supremes, it was not until years later that I saw the original trio. To me, during that time I always thought of Mary & Cindy as the Supremes-no disrespect to those who loved the original trio with Florence. They each performed with Diana Ross, Jean Terrell and Scherrie Payne. Each incarnation was something different. With Diana, they were newer together and clearly focused on Diana but still Mary and Cindy clicked, looked and sounded great together. With Jean, they seemed more prominent and visually they became much more of a focus, they even sang a lead line here and there. With Scherrie, Cindy came back but her blend with Mary seemed stronger and with Scherrie such a team player the group look and feel seemed stronger as did their harmonies and look. Which pairing did you prefer, I felt with Scherrie seemed the best although they were all great. I am going to post some You Tube videos after showing them and it reflects how I felt.

[jim aka jtigre99]

With Diana Ross[[funny how Diana looks at Mary when she says she doesn't bother with folks that she hates):[[
https://youtu.be/doR5ZTuUYYM

[sup_fan]

i agree that vocally, M and C had probably the best blend. especially live. visually they also complemented one another beautifully.

the DMF lineup is, of course, classic. the girls' blend was also very strong similar to why mary said - their three unique voices really complemented one another. Mary's dusty alto, diana's nasality and piercing voice [[meaning this is a good way) and flo's vibrant and bright soprano. also prior to it really becoming 'the diana show' you had three very intriguing personalities and onstage characters. so the lineup was exciting to watch

vocally, i think the MSS studio work is probably the strongest. mary was at her best during this phase and S and S are both just masters. plus all vocals were ONLY supremes

the MJC lineup is also very close, in terms of studio work. but so often additional voices were added so makes the comparison a bit more challenging

[jim aka jtigre99]

Here they are with Jean on Flip Wilson and each has a lead line:
https://youtu.be/v9ESK28DTsM

[sup_fan]

With Diana Ross[[funny how Diana looks at Mary when she says she doesn't bother with folks that she hates):[[
https://youtu.be/doR5ZTuUYYM

yeah they did this as part of the routine. similar to what the DMF lineup did in the Copa recording. Flo's ad lib response is 'well she must love us then!"

also in Queen of House, Diana makes funny motions and all to make it come across that M and F are the expecting ones.

and in Love Child, Diana would do a head nod to M And C during the line "so afraid that others knew i had no name"

always enjoyed when there was this level of group interaction in the music

[jim aka jtigre99]

Finally with Scherrie on Sonny & Cher in Scherrie's debut where each had a lead spot. Don't care for the outfits but they look and sound so great together
https://youtu.be/bafHBEoI9hA

[sup_fan]

i agree that in the 70s it was great to see M and C taking on more of a role within the group and it's performances. I still think Jean [[and later Scherrie) were best as the primary lead singers. but Mary was able to add more and it was great when Cindy stepped out on occasion.

[TheMotownManiac]

I prefer The original trio because I think they had the best sound, were visually the best looking, and Flos‘s personality was a gigantic asset to the group. I think each girl should have always had a solo in the show and when they took people out in 1967, they should have found something else for Florence to do as a solo if she was going to stay. I think by that time, Barry Gordy had kind of given up on her.

my next favorite is JML. Lynda was essential to the group because she was the only one that can speak on stage handle dialogue and converse without sounding slightly amateurish. And I loved their voices together. I hate to say this about Cindy because she’s the sweetest person on the planet, but I absolutely do not care for her Voice. To me, there’s just not enough there - hence the use of extra voices.

I did like the sound of MSC and MSS when they sang together, But often when they were trading lines they seem to be in competition with each other and not working as a unit musically and visually it’s a shame because they had a good sound.

[sup_fan]

I prefer The original trio because I think they had the best sound, we’re visually the best looking, and Flos‘s personality was a gigantic asset to the group. I think each girl should have always had a solo in the show and when they took people out in 1967, they should have found something else for Florence to do as a solo if she was going to stay. I think by that time, Barry Gordy had kind of given up on her.

my next favorite is JML. Lynda was essential to the group because she was the only one that can speak on stage handle dialogue and converse without sounding slightly amateurish. And I loved their voices together. I hate to say this about Cindy because she’s the sweetest person on the planet, but I absolutely do not care for her Voice. To me, there’s just not enough there - hence the use of extra voices.

I did like the sound of MSC and MSS when they sang together, But often when they were trading lines they seem to be in competition with each other and not working as a unit musically and visually it’s a shame because they had a good sound.

with MSS live, it was too much. trying to sing everything in 3 part harmony, the endless tossing around of lines, everyone always singing the melody in unison. it's like they were worried that all 3 had to have tons and tons of stage time. frankly it was too much of a good thing. some 3 part is beautiful and effective. endless 3 part is taxing on the ears

[mwmr]

Here they are with Jean on Flip Wilson and each has a lead line:
https://youtu.be/v9ESK28DTsM

mary and Cindy move and sound great here but Jean sounds terrible .. totally over singing it. Ouch

[TYK1986]

I like the Scherrie, Mary and Susaye on record but like you don't like them live. It's easier to get a blend on record than it is live on stage. Unlike many I like the Mary and Cindy combo the most. Their blend did not take over from whomever was singing lead. I think Florence sounded better live during their earlier years up till roughly '65. I like her voice on the Copa LP but find it a bit difficult to listen to her on the Roostertail set from the I hear a symphony expanded CD. I think Cindy should have been given the opportunity to try to find the right songs for her to sing. Same with Florence because she didn't sound good at all on some of the songs she recorded after she left Motown. Lynda seems to had a good stage presence but as background singer she is just too loud. She does a rather good job on the Stoned Love version that has been circulating on youtube for years.

[TYK1986]

mary and Cindy move and sound great here but Jean sounds terrible .. totally over singing it. Ouch

You are right. I love this song from their duet album with the tops but live it always sounded a bit like a mess. If they stuck a bit more to the recorded version I think it would have been far more enjoyable.

[sup_fan]

this clip of LTOYW on Flip is an example of how Jean sometimes didn't approach things the right way. I do enjoy most of her singing with the sups and agree she's an amazing talent. so many fans have said that jean would basically never sing the same song the same way twice. which is commendable. to a degree

her riffs and ad libs here totally destroy the melody of the song. she's just going on and on with no apparent direction. I find that she did that with a lot of the live tracks i have. one of the worst examples is Stoned Love on the Japan lp.

there's the old cliche about if you have class and money, you don't really need to flaunt it or tell people about it. you're rich so you have nothing to prove.

Jean was a talented singer but her never ending effort to PROVE that she could riff and improvise and do this and do that actually make her look like less of an accomplished singer. not every song requires wild runs. not every song requires her to go on with things. sometimes a straightly sung melody is the most beautiful.

[TYK1986]

Thing is that sometimes it works and sometimes not. I've heard live versions of Stones Love and they sounded better than the released version and others well....not so good. With Stoned Love live in Japan the biggest problem is the backing band. It sounds too weak and it feels as if they are rushing through the song.

[BobbyC]

A singer can improvise and that's fine up to a point. I stopped listening to Patti Labelle when she started to overdo things. One time I listened to her singing You Are My Friend, a song I owned and was very familiar with, and two minutes into the song I didn't even recognize it. I was never a Jean Terrell fan. Don't get mad--I just found her voice screechy on a lot of songs although she did fine on songs like Stoned Love. I love Scherrie Payne too, but live [[I never saw them live), on various Youtube videos, she totally over sings IMO. When she plays it straight, she was amazing!

[TYK1986]

I prefer them to sing the song as they do on the record. Not a huge fan of the improvising etc but on rare occasions it works. I do feel it rather distracts and I then I just stop listening. Like the song or not but Jean does sound good on Everybody's got the right to love and Mary and Cindy are blending very well on the background.

[antceleb12]

I think DMF had the best blend and the best group unity, hands-down. Listen to their Country, Western & Pop album, songs like "People," or some of their other standards that weren't necessarily pop hits. And their blend really matured over the years. I think the finest example of their blend is on the Rodgers & Hart album. One of my all-time favorite albums from the group.

When Cindy came along, Mary essentially became what Florence was in the beginning, that is to say the one who overshadowed the other Supreme vocally. I'm not sure if Cindy was feeling intimidated by having graduated up to a more high-profile [[and highly intense) group, but I don't feel like Cindy came into her own until Diana left.

Studio-wise, I believe JMC were the best following Diana, but live they were a bit all over the place live on multiple occasions, which I believe was due to a lack of proper arrangements and Jean going over the top with ad-libbing.

And while I appreciate the recordings from the final Supremes line-ups, their live acts just did not hold up, in my opinion.

Say what you want about Motown's almost militant adherence to their refinement school, but without people like Cholly, Maxine, and Maurice, the iconic polish of Motown acts' live appearances would not exist. The peak of the Supremes' prowess is 1964-1970. However, the peak of the group as a singular unit [[as opposed to a lead singer and backup singers) has to be 1959-1967 - yes, even at the very beginning as the "no-hit Supremes." I firmly believe that although Diana was clearly on her way to a solo career by 1966, both HDH and Flo's departures significantly increased Motown's ability to separate Diana from the "Supremes" as a whole.

Although I love Cindy, I rarely listen to recordings - either studio or live - from the DMC era. It just doesn't feel like a group to me at this point, aside from some recordings with the Temptations. Even on the Disney recordings Motown utilized outside help on the backing vocals - not even the Andantes were used. And while I love songs like "Love Child" and "Someday We'll Be Together," I do not consider them to be Supremes efforts. Despite the polish of the latter-years Diana-led Supremes recordings, the group unity was lacking and the in-house familial atmosphere of group effort - singers, Funk Bros, and producers - was long gone. To me, DMF will always reign 'Supreme' - although I have significant fondness for the records of the seventies-era Supremes, as well.

[Ollie9]

I think DMF had the best blend and the best group unity, hands-down. I think the finest example of their blend is on the Rodgers & Hart album. One of my all-time favorite albums from the group.
When Cindy came along, Mary essentially became what Florence was in the beginning, that is to say the one who overshadowed the other Supreme vocally. I'm not sure if Cindy was feeling intimidated by having graduated up to a more high-profile [[and highly intense) group, but I don't feel like Cindy came into her own until Diana left

Agree. As a group effort, the Rogers & Hart album for me represents the Supremes at their very best. Flo and Mary augment each song perfectly, sounding slick and assured on every track. The personality in Flo’s voice adds considerably to the final result.
Cindy was always the complete professional, but her voice might have been one of a billion other singers. That’s why the DMF lineup will always reign Supremes in my mind.
MS&S come a close second, but as you mention their live performances did not always compare favourably with the sophisticated recordings.

[sup_fan]

Agree. As a group effort, the Rogers & Hart album for me represents the Supremes at their very best. Flo and Mary augment each song perfectly, sounding slick and assured on every track. The personality in Flo’s voice adds considerably to the final result.
Cindy was always the complete professional, but her voice might have been one of a billion other singers. That’s why the DMF lineup will always reign Supremes in my mind.
MS&S come a close second, but as you mention their live performances did not always compare favourably with the sophisticated recordings.

the R&H set is truly a masterpiece release for the group. one of the finest of their entire discography.

my only [[and small) issues are 1) the backing vocals are a bit too low and 2) most 3 part harmony and group work would have been great.

you do get a bit more of that on the 13 tracks NOT included in the original album. clearly when they cut it to 1 disc, they picked the best Diana tunes.

but overall the set is marvelous and when you think that they recorded it in just a handful of days and when the girls were so young, it's amazing.

I'm a huge fan of the Ella Fitzgerald songbooks and the Sup albums stands up wonderful alongside those

[sup_fan]

i think the problem with the groupings is that DMF created a very popular presence on records and also a very popular yet different presence on stage. their pop hits were cute and fun and wonderful - perfect for the mid 60s. their stage act was classy and Vegas-y. Perfect for the time too.

each subsequent grouping continued to try and achieve the balance and the problem is public tastes change. the cutesy songs of the early 60s were no longer relevant by the late 60s. so ditties like In and out, Composer and Somethings just seem to pale when compared to other material being released. And while the DRATS were able to conquer the mega clubs, their live act was definitely something that would eventually have been an issue. but Diana left before this could happen

in the early 70s, it's almost as if the group needed 3 personas. record, Vegas clubs and younger concerts. i don't think they were able to really align these. certainly didn't succeed with the younger concerts - the girls still came across phony in their wigs and sequins and singing Cabaret

in the Scherrie years, they were a Vegas act and trying to push Mary as a solo. the show was constructed mostly around her vocals which wasn't a good idea. from Sup 75, in their shows and on tv they promoted HMM, This Is Why, Early Morning and Where is it i belong. None of the amazing Ivy Woodford tracks with scherrie leads [[color my world, give out, can't stop a girl) were ever promoted live. even Where Do I Go From Here wasn't. then on top of that you have the silly dream sequence, The Way We Were, etc. it was too broadway/vegas and not hip or relevant.

[Bluebrock]

i think the problem with the groupings is that DMF created a very popular presence on records and also a very popular yet different presence on stage. their pop hits were cute and fun and wonderful - perfect for the mid 60s. their stage act was classy and Vegas-y. Perfect for the time too.

each subsequent grouping continued to try and achieve the balance and the problem is public tastes change. the cutesy songs of the early 60s were no longer relevant by the late 60s. so ditties like In and out, Composer and Somethings just seem to pale when compared to other material being released. And while the DRATS were able to conquer the mega clubs, their live act was definitely something that would eventually have been an issue. but Diana left before this could happen

in the early 70s, it's almost as if the group needed 3 personas. record, Vegas clubs and younger concerts. i don't think they were able to really align these. certainly didn't succeed with the younger concerts - the girls still came across phony in their wigs and sequins and singing Cabaret

in the Scherrie years, they were a Vegas act and trying to push Mary as a solo. the show was constructed mostly around her vocals which wasn't a good idea. from Sup 75, in their shows and on tv they promoted HMM, This Is Why, Early Morning and Where is it i belong. None of the amazing Ivy Woodford tracks with scherrie leads [[color my world, give out, can't stop a girl) were ever promoted live. even Where Do I Go From Here wasn't. then on top of that you have the silly dream sequence, The Way We Were, etc. it was too broadway/vegas and not hip or relevant.

I was at their 1975 show in Manchester. I know you have a bootleg of that show. I was greatly disappointed by the show. Mary did the majority of the leads and did not perform them at all well. They were promoting the comeback album, but they totally ignored the far superior Scherrie led tracks and concentrated on the Mary led songs. It was almost like a throwback to the DRATS era with Scherrie and Cindy pretty much relegated to the Mary and Cindy roles. The problem with that was Mary lacked Diana's charisma and stage presence and it was a woeful show. They even performed the abysmal Where is it i belong which has got to be hands down the worst song ever recorded by the Supremes in any era. None of the excellent Scherrie leads were performed. I was amazed by this and bitterly disappointed. I vowed never to see the girls live ever again, but of course i was there again the following year when Susaye had replaced Cindy. It was a superior show vocally because Scherrie was given more leads, but the show itself was a hot mess and a visual disaster.
I saw Jean Scherrie and Lynda as the Flo's in the 80's and that was much better.

[TYK1986]

I've heard that performance on Youtube and was disappointed too. Too much Mary. Thats not a bad thing but the songs are only so so and the Dream things, is to me, a complete disaster and too long. I also recall that no Jean era songs were sung and only a quick hits medley of the Diana led songs. Although I like most of the songs from the Scherrie years, the live shows were/are hard to follow and I hardly ever listen to them. Same with Jean and the live in Japan album. Something is missing for me and the song choices are not so good.

[sup_fan]

after diana left, the new show with Jean was a refreshing change. they shifted a bit from the MOR standards. for instance the show closer was O Happy Day i believe and they sort of did a revival style approach. perfect for jean

they seemed to work this show concept through 71 - have a bootleg of the Central Park show. it included:

Feeling Good/Loving Country/Together we can make
we've only just begun
60s hits
Love Story
River Deep
Love the one you're with
can't take my eyes/quiet nights
everybody's got the right
nathan jones
people
stoned love
revival/o happy day

between the opening medley, Love the one you're with, everybody's got the right, stoned love and the ending, they had a solid concept of peace, love, humanity with a good dose of Jean soul! lol

not sure how the show evolved with Cindy or the early Lynda shows. but by just a little over a year later, we go the Temps tour which broke back so many of the DRATS songs.

When Scherrie joined and that early show taped in Japan, it's sort of just a greatest hits show - the 60s medley, 70s medley, stoned love, bad weather, touch, can't take my eyes, love train.

with Sup 75, they brought in Geoffrey Holder and he redid the act. introduced the Dream segment, Body Heat and the new numbers from the album. but yes, the show was structured far too heavily around mary and, even worse, around Mary-led songs that simply weren't all that great. the best tracks from the Sup 75 album are completely ignored including Mary's lovely You Turn Me Around lead. the content and approach from GEoffrey was just too Broadway.

[TYK1986]

I like the in Japan with Scherrie. It's a good show and mostly just their songs. I actually get a bit sick of hearing Mary singing can't take my eyes lol. I think she should have tried another song earlier during her tenure with the Supremes and ditched that song when Jean joined. It's a nice song but just out of place, especially when they more or less just did their greatest and latest songs in that Japan performance in 74 or 75. The love train closing number in that show was very good as well, and Cindy even gets a few lines.

I agree and would love to hear her sing, You turn me around, live. It's, for me, by far the best Mary lead song on their 75 Album.

[RanRan79]

With Scherrie, Cindy came back but her blend with Mary seemed stronger

Studio wise, I believe that's because Scherrie was singing backup with them, as opposed to Cindy and Mary singing alone.

[RanRan79]

the DMF lineup is, of course, classic. the girls' blend was also very strong similar to why mary said - their three unique voices really complemented one another. Mary's dusty alto, diana's nasality and piercing voice [[meaning this is a good way) and flo's vibrant and bright soprano... you had three very intriguing personalities

This was, in a sense, an example of the gospel influence on the Supremes. Group harmony in pop music and even gospel at first was usually approached with the idea of every voice blending together to almost make one voice. Roberta Martin was one of the first to pioneer the idea of background singers having their place, retaining their individualism, and allowing each singer's voice to be picked out in the harmony. Now I'm not saying that any of the Supremes thought about it in this way or that deeply, but having been trained by various people during the Primettes days, and no doubt having been exposed to various gospel groups during the golden age of gospel, this could be why there was always this easily picked out personality whenever the group sang, a lot of times even when they were singing backup for someone else.

Of course that's just my opinion. Don't wanna ruffle feathers.

[RanRan79]

I prefer them to sing the song as they do on the record. Not a huge fan of the improvising etc but on rare occasions it works. I do feel it rather distracts and I then I just stop listening. Like the song or not but Jean does sound good on Everybody's got the right to love and Mary and Cindy are blending very well on the background.

I'm the opposite. Well not so much opposite, but my viewpoint is different. I look at singers as artists. Sure, they perform, but it's all an art. I wouldn't expect a painter or a writer to paint the same picture or write the same book twice. The end result is a product of the feeling in any given moment. That's the way I see music, for the most part. I don't think it makes a singer any less an artist if they sing the same song the same way every time, but I do think a singer has to have room for artistic expression in any given moment. Now the result of any of those moments may have a varying effect on the listeners. Sometimes it'll work, sometimes it won't. Personally I prefer Jean's approach. My opinion only.

[RanRan79]

i think the problem with the groupings is that DMF created a very popular presence on records and also a very popular yet different presence on stage.

I once offered the opinion that all the subsequent groupings would forever live in the shadow of the original trio, and because of that, just about everything they did would pale in comparison, even it were something great. I still feel that way. Now there are very clear inferiorities with each grouping, but ultimately I think the public would always see them as imposters, a term I use very loosely here. For a great many people the Supremes would always be Diana, Florence and Mary. When it gets to the point that only Mary is left, everyone starts checking out. To be fair, I think had Mary left the group before Diana and she was replaced, the public would've thought of the Diana only Supremes as second rate also. The truth is that the Supremes were probably too big to survive losing two original members. Imagine the Beatles continuing with just Ringo. Who would have accepted them, no matter how good they were? The Supremes name probably should've been retired in January 1970. Let JMC continue under a new name.

Just my thoughts.

[TYK1986]

I'm the opposite. Well not so much opposite, but my viewpoint is different. I look at singers as artists. Sure, they perform, but it's all an art. I wouldn't expect a painter or a writer to paint the same picture or write the same book twice. The end result is a product of the feeling in any given moment. That's the way I see music, for the most part. I don't think it makes a singer any less an artist if they sing the same song the same way every time, but I do think a singer has to have room for artistic expression in any given moment. Now the result of any of those moments may have a varying effect on the listeners. Sometimes it'll work, sometimes it won't. Personally I prefer Jean's approach. My opinion only.

I don't think Jean always did a good job with it. She did on some occasions. Her Stoned Love performance in Central Park 1971, if I'm correct, was different but very good. There are others where I find her intro good and others are so so. I actually think it's very good if they can sing the song as they recorded it. I can't sing if my life depended on it lol so maybe that's why.

[antceleb12]

I once offered the opinion that all the subsequent groupings would forever live in the shadow of the original trio, and because of that, just about everything they did would pale in comparison, even it were something great. I still feel that way. Now there are very clear inferiorities with each grouping, but ultimately I think the public would always see them as imposters, a term I use very loosely here. For a great many people the Supremes would always be Diana, Florence and Mary. When it gets to the point that only Mary is left, everyone starts checking out. To be fair, I think had Mary left the group before Diana and she was replaced, the public would've thought of the Diana only Supremes as second rate also. The truth is that the Supremes were probably too big to survive losing two original members. Imagine the Beatles continuing with just Ringo. Who would have accepted them, no matter how good they were? The Supremes name probably should've been retired in January 1970. Let JMC continue under a new name.

Just my thoughts.

You hit the nail on the head. People sometimes forget that when Flo left, people noticed. Some people wrote into papers, I think as long afterward as when Diana was leaving, if Flo could come back. Unlike other groups at the time, it wasn't just Diana and her backup singers. Each Supreme was a household name in their own right, and losing one original member in their heyday was big enough news, let alone losing two. It's a very interesting "what if" to imagine if Mary had left either with Florence or after and before Diana. Would the group have fallen apart? Remember, Berry reportedly had to bribe people off the street to Diana's first solo show, and for a brief period of time the new Supremes eclipsed Diana on the charts.

[RanRan79]

I don't think Jean always did a good job with it. She did on some occasions. Her Stoned Love performance in Central Park 1971, if I'm correct, was different but very good. There are others where I find her intro good and others are so so. I actually think it's very good if they can sing the song as they recorded it. I can't sing if my life depended on it lol so maybe that's why.

I can understand that. Of course one man's junk is another man's art. I think Jean felt she had to do what she had to do artistically. As listeners it's up to us to judge whether it lands correctly or not. Lol

As a huge Jean fan, the only consistent problem I have with her voice really isn't even her problem. It's the fact that so much of the live stuff is nearly 50 year old bootlegs. And chances are they are copies of bootlegs, which make the sound mostly extremely inferior. Some of this stuff does give Jean's already natural high voice an even shriller sound, but one can never know whether that's Jean singing too high, or the horrible audio. But typically, Jean can hardly ever do any wrong in my book. She's one of my "can sing the phone book" singers. I can listen to her live or studio all day.

[Ollie9]

I once offered the opinion that all the subsequent groupings would forever live in the shadow of the original trio, and because of that, just about everything they did would pale in comparison, even it were something great. I still feel that way. Now there are very clear inferiorities with each grouping, but ultimately I think the public would always see them as imposters, a term I use very loosely here. For a great many people the Supremes would always be Diana, Florence and Mary. When it gets to the point that only Mary is left, everyone starts checking out. To be fair, I think had Mary left the group before Diana and she was replaced, the public would've thought of the Diana only Supremes as second rate also. The truth is that the Supremes were probably too big to survive losing two original members. Imagine the Beatles continuing with just Ringo. Who would have accepted them, no matter how good they were? The Supremes name probably should've been retired in January 1970. Let JMC continue under a new name.

Just my thoughts.

An interesting scenario to ponder Ran. To suggest the group would be thought second rate had Mary also decided to leave would be underestimating Diana’s appeal and charisma.
Remember, it was the Ross voice that the public fell in love with and her voice that turned those songs into hits. Flo and Mary contributed much to the overall appeal of the group, but it was Diana’s voice that made them special and separated them from the pack. It’s worth noting that from 67 to 70 the majority of recordings featured Diana with various backing singers. Admittedly the public were not aware of this at the time.
Having said that, people do like continuity, and to lose two members that record buyers were familiar with would undoubtedly have had a huge impact on live performances and how they were perceived as a group.
Essentially the records would have sounded much the same, so for me it all comes down to the music. With strong material l think it might have been possible to whether the storm.

[RanRan79]

You hit the nail on the head. People sometimes forget that when Flo left, people noticed. Some people wrote into papers, I think as long afterward as when Diana was leaving, if Flo could come back. Unlike other groups at the time, it wasn't just Diana and her backup singers. Each Supreme was a household name in their own right, and losing one original member in their heyday was big enough news, let alone losing two. It's a very interesting "what if" to imagine if Mary had left either with Florence or after and before Diana. Would the group have fallen apart? Remember, Berry reportedly had to bribe people off the street to Diana's first solo show, and for a brief period of time the new Supremes eclipsed Diana on the charts.

I think had Mary left at the same time as Flo, Gordy would've cut his losses and just sent Diana out as a solo. But until now I had never pondered a situation such as the Martha and the Vandellas, where Betty was gone one year, replaced, and then Roz gone the next. Would Gordy have replaced Mary with a third girl to join Diana and Cindy? I think that scenario is possible, but believe just ending the group at that point more probable.

But yeah, losing any two ladies from the group during the 60s would've been bad news. DRATS worked because at least there were still two very familiar members. But once Jean comes in, it does feel less like the Supremes and more like something else. Not that the Jean led Supremes were worse, just different. Diana was an obvious huge presence, so her absence was going to trigger a change in dynamic any way you slice it. Same with Flo, but in a different way because Flo wasn't the lead singer. When she left, DRATS didn't have the same feel. I think that's why it's so easy for some of us to even refer to that period of the group as Diana Ross and the Supremes without gagging.:D Flo left and she took much of what made the original Supremes so likeable with her. Diana wasn't even the same Diana from before. She really was officially the star attraction within the group. So it's kind of fitting that this grouping has a slightly different moniker.

Once Diana left, I think JMC might have found it "easier" to stay consistently successful if they were their own thing and not Supremes. Of course this opinion doesn't seek to address every issue that the new Supremes had. Gordy's abandonment of the group would've still occurred. Motown's sometimes irrational album and single releases [[both scheduling and actual choice in albums and singles) would've still occurred. But might it have been easier to brand JMC with a new name and image? Sup is right that some of the stuff within the 70s Supremes was just old fashioned and never going to go across well with some people. On the other hand, moving in a completely different direction might have caused others to avoid the group as they had become used to a certain look and sound with a name like Supremes.

All of this is hindsight and Monday morning quarterbacking of course, but looking back I really feel strongly that retiring the Supremes name in 1970 and branding JMC something different entirely might have changed the history of Mary's groups.

[jim aka jtigre99]

To be honest, if Mary had left with Flo or prior to Diana leaving I think it would have been a serious blow to the group. The public may have wondered why both of her singing partners left and even with PR, people would think is Diana difficult and it may have hurt her. Consider the PR when Flo left, she wanted to not travel and settle down yet she went to another record company for a solo career. Once DRATS hit and HDH left, some of the winning formula had lost its appeal except for Love Child and Someday which both were super focuses of the company. The public may not have been aware of the Supremes being replaced in backing vocals but with a new member some might have thought that this was how they now sounded. If Diana was the only voice they fell in love with she would have overrode this and that wasn't true. Even her solo recordings had sporadic chart action at times, much like the Ross-less Supremes. Ross has a distinctive voice but had her singing partners both left maybe the public would not have followed. Mary went along with Diana using the Supremes as a springboard for her solo career during DRATS and at the time of DRATS it was less about recordings and more about pushing Ross as a solo and becoming entrenched in the overall entertainment industry.

[reese]

I always wondered what might have happened if Mary decided to leave as well when Flo was dismissed. Berry probably would have done all he could to keep Mary in the group because she was less argumentative and more importantly, the public probably would have called major BS if two girls left at once. It would have also looked bad for Diana and their plans for her future solo career.

[TYK1986]

If Diana left it meant some people might not follow the Supremes anymore. But in the 70's it was Mary who held the Supremes together and some sort of familiarity with the group. I'm not from the 60/70's but I guess that the casual listener only knew Diana, Mary, Florence and maybe Cindy because they were doing a lot of tv stuff in the late 60's.

[sup_fan]

I'm the opposite. Well not so much opposite, but my viewpoint is different. I look at singers as artists. Sure, they perform, but it's all an art. I wouldn't expect a painter or a writer to paint the same picture or write the same book twice. The end result is a product of the feeling in any given moment. That's the way I see music, for the most part. I don't think it makes a singer any less an artist if they sing the same song the same way every time, but I do think a singer has to have room for artistic expression in any given moment. Now the result of any of those moments may have a varying effect on the listeners. Sometimes it'll work, sometimes it won't. Personally I prefer Jean's approach. My opinion only.

the artistry of singing goes beyond intonation and pitch, beyond how many runs or vocal gymnastics you can do. being able to convey the emotional message of the lyric and the melody is also important. some would say its the MOST important.

Diana excelled that this. she was always able to find the nuances of the lyric and melody. Jean also excelled at this, at times. her studio recordings are amazing. and often live she was wonderful too. but sometimes she got carried away

there's another comparison with music. piano and instrumental soloist often go after the huge concertos with the massive pyrotechnics and bombast. big complex Rachmaninov or Tchaikovsky pieces. and yes those are wonderful. they cram millions of notes, runs, trills and the like in. but some of the most difficult music to play and play RIGHT is Mozart. it's might not have the crazy chordal passages or things like that. but if you don't capture the emotion and interpretation correctly, which is very challenging, it's lost.

another example - the over singing of the National Anthem. You get some young pop star at a sporting event adding all sorts of nonsense. they have a finger swinging up in the air, they're being all dramatic and whatnot. Then go listen to Miss Whitney Houston.

there ya go! ;) lol

[lucky2012]

I think had Mary left at the same time as Flo, Gordy would've cut his losses and just sent Diana out as a solo.

...losing any two ladies from the group during the 60s would've been bad news. DRATS worked because at least there were still two very familiar members. But once Jean comes in, it does feel less like the Supremes and more like something else. Not that the Jean led Supremes were worse, just different. Diana was an obvious huge presence, so her absence was going to trigger a change in dynamic any way you slice it. Same with Flo, but in a different way because Flo wasn't the lead singer. When she left, [the group] didn't have the same feel. I think that's why it's so easy for some of us to even refer to that period of the group as Diana Ross and the Supremes without gagging.:D Flo left and she took much of what made the original Supremes so likeable with her. Diana wasn't even the same Diana from before. She really was officially the star attraction within the group. So it's kind of fitting that this grouping has a slightly different moniker.

Once Diana left, I think JMC might have found it "easier" to stay consistently successful if they were their own thing and not Supremes. But might it have been easier to brand JMC with a new name and image?... Sup is right that some of the stuff within the 70s Supremes was just old fashioned and never going to go across well with some people. On the other hand, moving in a completely different direction might have caused others to avoid the group as they had become used to a certain look and sound with a name like Supremes.

All of this is hindsight and Monday morning quarterbacking of course, but looking back I really feel strongly that retiring the Supremes name in 1970 and branding JMC something different entirely might have changed the history of Mary's groups.

I agree with a lot you are saying, RanRan. JMC was definitely a new, different group. I'm thinking now that The New Supremes might have been a good way to move forward. I had thought about this from when Diana left the group, but I think I wanted to hold on to the continued existence of "The Supremes" in my universe. The "New Supremes" would have acknowledged the new start and direction for the legendary group and put a spotlight on new lead singer Jean Terrell.

[sup_fan]

An interesting scenario to ponder Ran. To suggest the group would be thought second rate had Mary also decided to leave would be underestimating Diana’s appeal and charisma.
Remember, it was the Ross voice that the public fell in love with and her voice that turned those songs into hits. Flo and Mary contributed much to the overall appeal of the group, but it was Diana’s voice that made them special and separated them from the pack. It’s worth noting that from 67 to 70 the majority of recordings featured Diana with various backing singers. Admittedly the public were not aware of this at the time.
Having said that, people do like continuity, and to lose two members that record buyers were familiar with would undoubtedly have had a huge impact on live performances and how they were perceived as a group.
Essentially the records would have sounded much the same, so for me it all comes down to the music. With strong material l think it might have been possible to whether the storm.

you're right that it was diana's voice. given the number of singles and albums sold, it really was about diana. M and F most certainly added to the act but that was more their stage show. even tv appearances were mostly diana since Berry could help direct and control the camera angles and shots.

most people didn't actually see the Sups on stage. most heard them on the radio, tv and records. those 3 outlets were all, for the most part, 100% Diana.

By the time flo left, Motown was already heavily shifting things to focus primarily on Diana. Cindy's appearance was also quite similar to flo, so the change was much less disruptive than if they had brought in, let's say, Susaye. a totally different look and sound. To the average public, it was quite seamless. Even here on the board, if there's a slightly blurry pic of the era, we ourselves sometimes have to look very very closely to see if it's flo or cindy. especially when the pic of them in the gowns during that transition period. once we get to the super glam sequins, we all know it's cindy by then.

[sup_fan]

I agree with a lot you are saying, RanRan. JMC was definitely a new, different group. I'm thinking now that The New Supremes might have been a good way to move forward. I had thought about this from when Diana left the group, but I think I wanted to hold on to the continued existence of "The Supremes" in my universe. The "New Supremes" would have acknowledged the new start and direction for the legendary group and put a spotlight on new lead singer Jean Terrell.

while they didn't FORMALLY change their name to the "New Supremes" that is how they were often positioned on tv, radio and in print. sure the label copy still read "supremes" but the marketing was "new supremes"

[RanRan79]

An interesting scenario to ponder Ran. To suggest the group would be thought second rate had Mary also decided to leave would be underestimating Diana’s appeal and charisma.
Remember, it was the Ross voice that the public fell in love with and her voice that turned those songs into hits. Flo and Mary contributed much to the overall appeal of the group, but it was Diana’s voice that made them special and separated them from the pack. It’s worth noting that from 67 to 70 the majority of recordings featured Diana with various backing singers. Admittedly the public were not aware of this at the time.
Having said that, people do like continuity, and to lose two members that record buyers were familiar with would undoubtedly have had a huge impact on live performances and how they were perceived as a group.
Essentially the records would have sounded much the same, so for me it all comes down to the music. With strong material l think it might have been possible to whether the storm.

It was Ross' voice coupled with those incredible HDH compositions, the Funk Brothers' incredible musicianship and the beautiful harmony of Flo and Mary that gripped the public. The Supremes were never just about Diana, and there were several times when Gordy- and I suspect Ross- were annoyed to find out that reality. The Supremes were a huge machine. They were a force beyond simply singing. Their story was one of the interesting aspects of their image, and that story and image were strictly tied to the three original Supremes. When Flo leaves and Cindy comes in, the dynamic is different because the history is different. Replace Flo and Mary, and yes, the group becomes second rate. The replacements might be consummate professionals and talented singers, but the initial magic of three friends from humble beginnings striking it big against all odds...is gone. This Diana only group would never have been seen as better than the original trio, thus making them second rate. Sure, just like with DRATS, they might have a few big hits and Diana could continue to test run her solo career, but the DRATS-less Mary grouping would live in the shadow of the original trio, just like all the other incarnations that came after the originals, including DRATS. Second rate.

[RanRan79]

the artistry of singing goes beyond intonation and pitch, beyond how many runs or vocal gymnastics you can do. being able to convey the emotional message of the lyric and the melody is also important. some would say its the MOST important.

Diana excelled that this. she was always able to find the nuances of the lyric and melody. Jean also excelled at this, at times. her studio recordings are amazing. and often live she was wonderful too. but sometimes she got carried away

there's another comparison with music. piano and instrumental soloist often go after the huge concertos with the massive pyrotechnics and bombast. big complex Rachmaninov or Tchaikovsky pieces. and yes those are wonderful. they cram millions of notes, runs, trills and the like in. but some of the most difficult music to play and play RIGHT is Mozart. it's might not have the crazy chordal passages or things like that. but if you don't capture the emotion and interpretation correctly, which is very challenging, it's lost.

another example - the over singing of the National Anthem. You get some young pop star at a sporting event adding all sorts of nonsense. they have a finger swinging up in the air, they're being all dramatic and whatnot. Then go listen to Miss Whitney Houston.

there ya go! ;) lol

The artistry of singing is nothing more than the art of singing, and that art's cultivation- or production- is defined by the artist. That's not to say that everybody's art is everybody's art. As I said before, one man's junk is another man's treasure. That's the way it works with art. There isn't a painting, a book, a song, or a singer that everyone who hears agrees about. So if Jean felt that a particular piece in a particular moment calls for deviating from the original, I don't think there's anyway to measure the "wrong" of that interpretation. The "like" or "dislike" of it, sure. But not the wrong.

[RanRan79]

I agree with a lot you are saying, RanRan. JMC was definitely a new, different group. I'm thinking now that The New Supremes might have been a good way to move forward. I had thought about this from when Diana left the group, but I think I wanted to hold on to the continued existence of "The Supremes" in my universe. The "New Supremes" would have acknowledged the new start and direction for the legendary group and put a spotlight on new lead singer Jean Terrell.

Lucky even this I find fault with. I think the name Supremes should've been completely abandoned. Perhaps the closest I would have gone is maybe calling the new group Supreme, but even that's just too close for comfort. Maybe give them a name that's not The XXX. Something along the lines of Glass House or Honey Cone or New Birth. Call them New Ways or something.

"Ladies and gentlemen, here they are, the ladies you've been waiting for...New Ways!"

[sup_fan]

Lucky even this I find fault with. I think the name Supremes should've been completely abandoned. Perhaps the closest I would have gone is maybe calling the new group Supreme, but even that's just too close for comfort. Maybe give them a name that's not The XXX. Something along the lines of Glass House or Honey Cone or New Birth. Call them New Ways or something.

"Ladies and gentlemen, here they are, the ladies you've been waiting for...New Ways!"

see i disagree about the name. that brand of The Supremes was firmly established and that alone attracted record buyers and ticket sales.

Every group and artist is going to have peaks and valleys in their popularity and sales. the earlier years of the supremes would always be the "peak" years and the group would forever be compared to this. and they would also always enjoy the halo effect of this. The fact that it was the lead singer that left would always be a challenge since only Diana Ross can sound like Diana Ross.

the New Supremes were still successful for a couple years after Diana's departure. i don't think it was the name or group history that really caused the decline. partially, the decline was nature and would have happened regardless due to public tastes. also motown and group management didn't properly continue to evolve and update the group. poor management decisions were more responsible for declining sales than the group name

[sup_fan]

The artistry of singing is nothing more than the art of singing, and that art's cultivation- or production- is defined by the artist. That's not to say that everybody's art is everybody's art. As I said before, one man's junk is another man's treasure. That's the way it works with art. There isn't a painting, a book, a song, or a singer that everyone who hears agrees about. So if Jean felt that a particular piece in a particular moment calls for deviating from the original, I don't think there's anyway to measure the "wrong" of that interpretation. The "like" or "dislike" of it, sure. But not the wrong.

very valid point. beauty is definitely in the eye of the behold. or listener as is this case

i do appreciate Jean's desire to be inventive and explorative.

[TYK1986]

It's all about personal taste when it comes to a lot of things. I don't really like the use of second rate either which is also an opinion. Yes Flo. Mary and Diana might have had all the big hits but I skip many of their album songs and I don't even like some of their number 1 hits. I can't stand Love is here for example. Whereas I can listen to most of the Jean led Albums and High Energy. MSS all the way through. Yes the sales and hits dried up but just because of what the majority thinks doesn't make them second rate for me. I do think without Mary the Supremes wouldn't have been the Supremes, for me. I would like to know how Florence would have sound on some of the Drats records. But I have to say that her voice on all her solo recordings, after she left, were not to my liking.

Fleetwood Mac the same. Every line up without Stevie and Lindsay is second rate. I hear it so often. It's an opinion but not mine. I love loads of the songs they recorded before they joined in 75. Abba's final LP, second rate compared to Arrival. I never listen to Arrival and have their last album, the visitors, in my car all the time.

And back to the Supremes. Ran you are right. Nothing wrong with how Jean sings a song. It's how she feels she should sing it. Some like it and some don't. I don't always like it, like I mentioned earlier. Diana tended to stick more to the original but after hearing it a thousand times I think it can get a bit boring. With Jean you just never knew what was coming.

[Ollie9]

It was Ross' voice coupled with those incredible HDH compositions, the Funk Brothers' incredible musicianship and the beautiful harmony of Flo and Mary that gripped the public. The Supremes were never just about Diana, and there were several times when Gordy- and I suspect Ross- were annoyed to find out that reality. The Supremes were a huge machine. They were a force beyond simply singing. Their story was one of the interesting aspects of their image, and that story and image were strictly tied to the three original Supremes. When Flo leaves and Cindy comes in, the dynamic is different because the history is different. Replace Flo and Mary, and yes, the group becomes second rate. The replacements might be consummate professionals and talented singers, but the initial magic of three friends from humble beginnings striking it big against all odds...is gone. This Diana only group would never have been seen as better than the original trio, thus making them second rate. Sure, just like with DRATS, they might have a few big hits and Diana could continue to test run her solo career, but the DRATS-less Mary grouping would live in the shadow of the original trio, just like all the other incarnations that came after the originals, including DRATS. Second rate.

Second rate suggests inferior which might not have been the case.
The point being would those HDH songs have become the hits they did without the unique and extremely radio friendly Ross voice. I think the Supremes would have been just as successful had Flo and Mary been two other female singers.
Take Diana out of the equation and what are you left with. I say that not to down play Flo and Mary’s contribution for l think they were great at what they did.
Having said that it was Diana’s voice alone that was uniquely special. Like many other artists she needed good song writers and a strong support team behind her.
When all is said and done, she was the key to it all.

[sup_fan]

Second rate suggests inferior which might not have been the case.
The point being would those HDH songs have become the hits they did without the unique and extremely radio friendly Ross voice. I think the Supremes would have been just as successful had Flo and Mary been two other female singers.
Take Diana out of the equation and what are you left with. I say that not to down play Flo and Mary’s contribution for l think they were great at what they did.
Having said that it was Diana’s voice alone that was uniquely special. Like many other artists she needed good song writers and a strong support team behind her.
When all is said and done, she was the key to it all.

i do think F and M made more than an important contribution to the group. Diana certainly had a unique voice and stage presence. If you look at other girl group singers of the era, their faces and expressions are usually pretty dead. even the leads sometimes aren't super engaging. The Crystals, Ronettes, Marvelettes, even MRATV.

if Diana had been paired with the two other Ronettes, for instance, the Come See About Me episode on Sullivan would have been quite different. Sure diana would pop but the other two are yawns. Also DMF had a better live blend than the Marvelettes or MRATV.

in 1965, the girls were only 21 yet they handled a very complex and sophisticated stage debut at the Copa. no other girl group could have handled that. and the reason they GOT to the Copa was because of their incredible sales, radio success AND tv success.

diana with two other girls would certainly have been successful. But they may or may not have become THE SUPREMES or they may not have gone quite as far as quickly as they did. Diana developed considerably through 64 and 65. she grew so much as a stage performer. M and F also had very engaging stage presence with made the act so appealing. plus they were a superbly solid foundation for Diana to be able to experiment and practice and grow on. the consistent performing quality of M and F gave D the freedom to grow.

[RanRan79]

see i disagree about the name. that brand of The Supremes was firmly established and that alone attracted record buyers and ticket sales.

Every group and artist is going to have peaks and valleys in their popularity and sales. the earlier years of the supremes would always be the "peak" years and the group would forever be compared to this. and they would also always enjoy the halo effect of this. The fact that it was the lead singer that left would always be a challenge since only Diana Ross can sound like Diana Ross.

the New Supremes were still successful for a couple years after Diana's departure. i don't think it was the name or group history that really caused the decline. partially, the decline was nature and would have happened regardless due to public tastes. also motown and group management didn't properly continue to evolve and update the group. poor management decisions were more responsible for declining sales than the group name

But that's just it, the Supremes branding occurred during the original trio's reign. Diana and Mary together were able to stay on brand because they helped create it. Cindy was "forced" into it, as was Jean. So as the years went by and it seems like the groupings kept removing what made the Supremes THE SUPREMES, it's like what's the point of them being the Supremes anymore? I think if Motown had spearheaded a PR event where Diana leaves the Supremes for solo success and Mary and Cindy join Jean in a brand new musical force- New Ways for the sake of this convo:p- things might have gone a bit smoother. Jean might have been happier because she'd be a founding member as opposed to the new girl joining an existing group recently vacated by a huge talent. Even Mary and Cindy may have found their positions as singers increase, considering that first album was once again a lead singer and two backing singers.

In other words, the value of the name Supremes decreased where the public was concerned. They never kept that thing that made the name a household name in the first place. Compare them to the Tempts, who also had a revolving door of singers. They too had lulls in the career, but they were always an automatic entertainment fav because even though at a certain point three of the original big five were gone, leaving just Melvin and Otis, the Tempts still kept that thing that made them exciting from day one. The Jean years kept some of the 60s momentum going. By the time Scherrie comes in, the group name should've definitely been changed. There is absolutely no resemblance between MSC and MSS to FDM at all. No value in the name at that point.

[RanRan79]

It's all about personal taste when it comes to a lot of things. I don't really like the use of second rate either which is also an opinion. Yes Flo. Mary and Diana might have had all the big hits but I skip many of their album songs and I don't even like some of their number 1 hits. I can't stand Love is here for example. Whereas I can listen to most of the Jean led Albums and High Energy. MSS all the way through. Yes the sales and hits dried up but just because of what the majority thinks doesn't make them second rate for me. I do think without Mary the Supremes wouldn't have been the Supremes, for me. I would like to know how Florence would have sound on some of the Drats records. But I have to say that her voice on all her solo recordings, after she left, were not to my liking.

Fleetwood Mac the same. Every line up without Stevie and Lindsay is second rate. I hear it so often. It's an opinion but not mine. I love loads of the songs they recorded before they joined in 75. Abba's final LP, second rate compared to Arrival. I never listen to Arrival and have their last album, the visitors, in my car all the time.

And back to the Supremes. Ran you are right. Nothing wrong with how Jean sings a song. It's how she feels she should sing it. Some like it and some don't. I don't always like it, like I mentioned earlier. Diana tended to stick more to the original but after hearing it a thousand times I think it can get a bit boring. With Jean you just never knew what was coming.

Second rate might be a poor choice of wording. So I'll say they would always fall short in the general public's eye when it came to the original trio. Yes, second rate implies inferior, and one thing about the talent, the Supremes never lacked it, from beginning to end. So second rate isn't particularly accurate here. Well, it isn't accurate for every instance. I'm sorry, but the MSC and MSS stage shows didn't hold a candle to the original trio's shows. My opinion of course.

[RanRan79]

Second rate suggests inferior which might not have been the case.
The point being would those HDH songs have become the hits they did without the unique and extremely radio friendly Ross voice. I think the Supremes would have been just as successful had Flo and Mary been two other female singers.
Take Diana out of the equation and what are you left with. I say that not to down play Flo and Mary’s contribution for l think they were great at what they did.
Having said that it was Diana’s voice alone that was uniquely special. Like many other artists she needed good song writers and a strong support team behind her.
When all is said and done, she was the key to it all.

To be honest Ollie, I think this is always a strange conversation to have because one question leads to another. Would those HDH songs have become the hits they did without Diana? Maybe, considering HDH had huge hits and equally incredible classics with other singers besides Diana. Interesting to note that Diana's voice was on at least seven flops before getting a hit, a couple of which showcase the beauty of her voice as much as the classics, and yet they went "nowhere". A hit song is a hit song often for many reasons. Diana's lead on "Where Did Our Love Go" is often pointed out as a reason why the song was such a big hit. But honestly, I've seen just as many so called music pundits point out the hypnotic background of Mary [[and Flo?), and that new phase of the Motown Sound coming together to create an incredible song. I would add my own opinion that any other two singers with Diana on "Come See About Me" or "You Keep Me Hanging On" might have made for an "inferior" product. If Diana's voice is the be all for you, it is what it is. For me, as a lover of music, there are any number of reasons why I love a song, and the lead singer may or may not be it. There are certainly times when I love everything but the lead singer. For me Flo and Mary's contributions to what made the Supremes THE SUPREMES is immeasurable and nothing to sneeze at. Of the three of them, Diana was the key to the door that led to superstardom. But the Supremes were more than just recording artists. It took all three of them to keep that ship moving, hence what happened whenever one of them rocked the boat. One might even consider what may have happened had Diana been in a group with two other girls who, instead of having a like mind of "success or nothing", instead the other two girls were like "fuck this shit" after three or four failed recordings. Sometimes disenchantment can be contagious, especially for young people. Diana might have decided that she too was sick of it and decided to do something else, and we'd have nothing to talk about here.:p

For the record, I'm a fan of the Supremes because of Florence. Without her, I would've never gotten hooked on the group and thus hooked on Motown. I didn't start out being wowed by Diana Ross' voice, although I always had a healthy respect for it and liked it.

[milven]

........ By the time Scherrie comes in, the group name should've definitely been changed. There is absolutely no resemblance between MSC and MSS to FDM at all. No value in the name at that point.

This story has been told before but when High Energy came out, and it was not selling in a record shop because the group was "played out", they put masking tape over the Supremes name on the cover and promoted the album as a new group called High Energy. Back then they played albums in the store and the customers liked what they heard from the new group and bought the record.

So perhaps you are right

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/3/35/High-energy.jpg

[Ollie9]

To be honest Ollie, I think this is always a strange conversation to have because one question leads to another. Would those HDH songs have become the hits they did without Diana? Maybe, considering HDH had huge hits and equally incredible classics with other singers besides Diana. Interesting to note that Diana's voice was on at least seven flops before getting a hit, a couple of which showcase the beauty of her voice as much as the classics, and yet they went "nowhere". A hit song is a hit song often for many reasons. Diana's lead on "Where Did Our Love Go" is often pointed out as a reason why the song was such a big hit. But honestly, I've seen just as many so called music pundits point out the hypnotic background of Mary [[and Flo?), and that new phase of the Motown Sound coming together to create an incredible song. I would add my own opinion that any other two singers with Diana on "Come See About Me" or "You Keep Me Hanging On" might have made for an "inferior" product. If Diana's voice is the be all for you, it is what it is. For me, as a lover of music, there are any number of reasons why I love a song, and the lead singer may or may not be it. There are certainly times when I love everything but the lead singer. For me Flo and Mary's contributions to what made the Supremes THE SUPREMES is immeasurable and nothing to sneeze at. Of the three of them, Diana was the key to the door that led to superstardom. But the Supremes were more than just recording artists. It took all three of them to keep that ship moving, hence what happened whenever one of them rocked the boat. One might even consider what may have happened had Diana been in a group with two other girls who, instead of having a like mind of "success or nothing", instead the other two girls were like "fuck this shit" after three or four failed recordings. Sometimes disenchantment can be contagious, especially for young people. Diana might have decided that she too was sick of it and decided to do something else, and we'd have nothing to talk about here.:p

For the record, I'm a fan of the Supremes because of Florence. Without her, I would've never gotten hooked on the group and thus hooked on Motown. I didn't start out being wowed by Diana Ross' voice, although I always had a healthy respect for it and liked it.

To coin a well used phrase it’s all subjective Ran lol. I certainly think in those early, transitional years Diana needed her fellow Supremes. I think it’s difficult for us as Supremes fans to ponder the original grouping not including Flo and Mary. Our knee jerk response will always be it couldn’t possibly have been as good without them. The response derives as much from sentiment as subjective opinion.
It’s worth remembering that even on some of those early hits, Flo or Mary may possibly have been absent. In some cases it’s really hard to tell.
I do find it strange that Diana’s unique sound was not the first thing that attracted you to the group. Out of interest what was the first Supremes song you ever heard that made you think, lead singer ok but who is that singing background?.. I can’t say for sure, but guess you would be in the minority on that one.

[RanRan79]

This story has been told before but when High Energy came out, and it was not selling in a record shop because the group was "played out", they put masking tape over the Supremes name on the cover and promoted the album as a new group called High Energy. Back then they played albums in the store and the customers liked what they heard from the new group and bought the record.

So perhaps you are right

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/3/35/High-energy.jpg

Very interesting anecdote! I think it says a lot.

[floyjoy678]

For me it wasn't necessary Diana's voice as I saw them rather than heard them. And I was drawn to them by how theatrical they were and the glamor.

[sup_fan]

But that's just it, the Supremes branding occurred during the original trio's reign. Diana and Mary together were able to stay on brand because they helped create it. Cindy was "forced" into it, as was Jean. So as the years went by and it seems like the groupings kept removing what made the Supremes THE SUPREMES, it's like what's the point of them being the Supremes anymore? I think if Motown had spearheaded a PR event where Diana leaves the Supremes for solo success and Mary and Cindy join Jean in a brand new musical force- New Ways for the sake of this convo:p- things might have gone a bit smoother. Jean might have been happier because she'd be a founding member as opposed to the new girl joining an existing group recently vacated by a huge talent. Even Mary and Cindy may have found their positions as singers increase, considering that first album was once again a lead singer and two backing singers.

In other words, the value of the name Supremes decreased where the public was concerned. They never kept that thing that made the name a household name in the first place. Compare them to the Tempts, who also had a revolving door of singers. They too had lulls in the career, but they were always an automatic entertainment fav because even though at a certain point three of the original big five were gone, leaving just Melvin and Otis, the Tempts still kept that thing that made them exciting from day one. The Jean years kept some of the 60s momentum going. By the time Scherrie comes in, the group name should've definitely been changed. There is absolutely no resemblance between MSC and MSS to FDM at all. No value in the name at that point.

so i don't think it was the name itself that needed to change but the group and managerial approach. while obviously the group was always going to represent class and elegance, they and their managers could and should have done more to keep up with the times. they evolved nicely in 70 with Jean and a more soulful sound. plus the whole peace and love image/tone of their music.

in 72 they could have evolved into more of the Quiet Storm sound and style. but the name The Supremes could have still worked perfectly fine.

with Scherrie joining in 74, the pop tunes on Sup 75 were perfect 70s pop fare. and could have charted had the management at the time pushed it. again it wasn't the name The Supremes that was the barrier there but inept management and promotion

with the disco era the name The Supremes could have been a big asset. the group was synonymous with glamour and that fit perfectly with the ethos of disco. again, had there been better management decisions and approaches during this time, things could have been different

it wasn't the name The Supremes that was the problem. poor management, lack of willingness to evolve their style and sound was the issue.

now you're right that once they were out of touch with things, the name The Supremes sort of became a joke. they weren't relevant. they had mismanaged the brand

[RanRan79]

To coin a well used phrase it’s all subjective Ran lol. I certainly think in those early, transitional years Diana needed her fellow Supremes. I think it’s difficult for us as Supremes fans to ponder the original grouping not including Flo and Mary. Our knee jerk response will always be it couldn’t possibly have been as good without them. The response derives as much from sentiment as subjective opinion.
It’s worth remembering that even on some of those early hits, Flo or Mary may possibly have been absent. In some cases it’s really hard to tell.
I do find it strange that Diana’s unique sound was not the first thing that attracted you to the group. Out of interest what was the first Supremes song you ever heard that made you think, lead singer ok but who is that singing background?.. I can’t say for sure, but guess you would be in the minority on that one.

I agree with Sup fan on this one. Would the Supremes have succeeded with Diana and two other women? Sure. Would they have achieved the same success? From my perspective, nope, because each individual component brought something special to the mix. Remove it and you're left with something completely different. The fortunes of many have been changed by a decision. In other words, how different the story of any entity, be it music group, record label, Coca Cola, if not for all the ingredients that came together to create it. As I said before, these kinds of conversations end up in a stream of questions. So if not for HDH, would we even know Diana Ross? Something to ponder.

Regarding the background singing of the singles, I thought the issue had kind of been put to bed. Flo and Mary are on everything up until "Hurry Love", when it appears that Flo may have been replaced with Marlene. The Andantes are added to "Stop". I would say "Symphony" and "My World" are the two singles where the backing vocals get a bit muddled into the mix, but everything else was pretty much a group effort. [[And then there's the mystery of why no audible Flo on "Where Did Our Love Go". I would really love for George or someone to address this.)

Unique doesn't mean automatic attraction. Lol As a kid I knew the Supremes' big hits and felt about them the same as I did the big hits of the Tempts, the Tops, Martha and the Vandellas, and the other Motown and 60s soul groups. I was that 80s/90s kid that enjoyed that kind of stuff as much as I did whatever was on contemporary radio. But I wasn't any more knocked out by Diana's voice than I was anyone else's, certainly not to the point where I wanted to collect everything she or the Supremes ever did. But then I read Dreamgirl when I was 13. Mary spoke so highly of Flo's voice that I decided to hear it as lead singer for myself and found a copy of Meet the Supremes. I loved "Buttered Popcorn" on first listen. Still today Flo's lead singing [[and backing) voice is one of my all time favorites. Anyway, of course I didn't just listen to "Buttered Popcorn" but the rest of the Meet album. A couple of the numbers do Diana no real favors, but "Your Heart", "Right Way", and "Time Changes Things", in particular show the group at their early best. I found that I really dug this group in a way that I didn't for some of their contemporaries. So from there I started collecting the other albums, which not only gave me an increased appreciation for Flo and Mary's contributions, but also the overall artistry of Diana Ross, who suddenly became more than the lead singer of some of those overplayed big hits like "Baby Love" and "Stop In the Name Of Love". [[I also knew Diana from stuff like "Swept Away" and "Missing You", both of which got constant airplay in Chicago, and songs that I loved.) Eventually Diana became one of my all time favorite vocalists period. And because of collecting the Supremes, my collecting eventually stretched to Marvin, and the Tempts, and Martha and the Vandellas, and to Motown in general. And it can all be traced back to Flo.

[sup_fan]

i think the issue with WDOLG is that they had Flo stand quite a ways back from the mic. i guess they wanted a deeper sound and Flo's soprano had a brightness to it.

[sup_fan]

This story has been told before but when High Energy came out, and it was not selling in a record shop because the group was "played out", they put masking tape over the Supremes name on the cover and promoted the album as a new group called High Energy. Back then they played albums in the store and the customers liked what they heard from the new group and bought the record.

So perhaps you are right

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/3/35/High-energy.jpg

very interesting story. hadn't heard this one before. agree that by this time the brand name had degraded some in the general public's mind. but again, that was the result of poor decisions and actions in the years preceding

[Ollie9]

I agree with Sup fan on this one. Would the Supremes have succeeded with Diana and two other women? Sure. Would they have achieved the same success? From my perspective, nope, because each individual component brought something special to the mix. Remove it and you're left with something completely different. The fortunes of many have been changed by a decision. In other words, how different the story of any entity, be it music group, record label, Coca Cola, if not for all the ingredients that came together to create it. As I said before, these kinds of conversations end up in a stream of questions. So if not for HDH, would we even know Diana Ross? Something to ponder.

Regarding the background singing of the singles, I thought the issue had kind of been put to bed. Flo and Mary are on everything up until "Hurry Love", when it appears that Flo may have been replaced with Marlene. The Andantes are added to "Stop". I would say "Symphony" and "My World" are the two singles where the backing vocals get a bit muddled into the mix, but everything else was pretty much a group effort. [[And then there's the mystery of why no audible Flo on "Where Did Our Love Go". I would really love for George or someone to address this.)

Unique doesn't mean automatic attraction. Lol As a kid I knew the Supremes' big hits and felt about them the same as I did the big hits of the Tempts, the Tops, Martha and the Vandellas, and the other Motown and 60s soul groups. I was that 80s/90s kid that enjoyed that kind of stuff as much as I did whatever was on contemporary radio. But I wasn't any more knocked out by Diana's voice than I was anyone else's, certainly not to the point where I wanted to collect everything she or the Supremes ever did. But then I read Dreamgirl when I was 13. Mary spoke so highly of Flo's voice that I decided to hear it as lead singer for myself and found a copy of Meet the Supremes. I loved "Buttered Popcorn" on first listen. Still today Flo's lead singing [[and backing) voice is one of my all time favorites. Anyway, of course I didn't just listen to "Buttered Popcorn" but the rest of the Meet album. A couple of the numbers do Diana no real favors, but "Your Heart", "Right Way", and "Time Changes Things", in particular show the group at their early best. I found that I really dug this group in a way that I didn't for some of their contemporaries. So from there I started collecting the other albums, which not only gave me an increased appreciation for Flo and Mary's contributions, but also the overall artistry of Diana Ross, who suddenly became more than the lead singer of some of those overplayed big hits like "Baby Love" and "Stop In the Name Of Love". [[I also knew Diana from stuff like "Swept Away" and "Missing You", both of which got constant airplay in Chicago, and songs that I loved.) Eventually Diana became one of my all time favorite vocalists period. And because of collecting the Supremes, my collecting eventually stretched to Marvin, and the Tempts, and Martha and the Vandellas, and to Motown in general. And it can all be traced back to Flo.

My first experience is a little different,. As a very young kid l heard “Stop In The Name Of Love” radiating from the radio in our kitchen for the first time. I remember being totally enthralled with the Ross voice, which sounded so very different from anyone else. I was hooked from that moment on and have never really looked back.
I of course eventually came to learn of Mary and Flo, but it was that lead voice trilling out the notes with an edge of profound despair that first caught my imagination.

[Circa 1824]

My first experience is a little different,. As a very young kid l heard “Stop In The Name Of Love” radiating from the radio in our kitchen for the first time. I remember being totally enthralled with the Ross voice, which sounded so very different from anyone else. I was hooked from that moment on and have never really looked back.
I of course eventually came to learn of Mary and Flo, but it was that lead voice trilling out the notes with an edge of profound despair that first caught my imagination.

Ditto !!!!!

[lucky2012]

My first experience is a little different,. As a very young kid l heard “Stop In The Name Of Love” radiating from the radio in our kitchen for the first time. I remember being totally enthralled with the Ross voice, which sounded so very different from anyone else. I was hooked from that moment on and have never really looked back.
I of course eventually came to learn of Mary and Flo, but it was that lead voice trilling out the notes with an edge of profound despair that first caught my imagination.

I had the same experience, Ollie9, here in California [[LA)! I was 11, riding in the car with my family, and Stop! comes on the radio. That voice captivated me from the start. It was truly like no other singer or voice. I didn't know who Ross was but I soon learned about the Supremes. Mary & Flo of course became important on television and record covers, because the Supremes were truly a group [[then). But you just knew you were hearing a new Supremes record every time because of that unmistakable voice. She could have been singing with any two other girls [[as was apparently so at times).

I first heard Mary & Flo on Meet The Supremes. Although I was put-off by the "primitiveness" of the songs and much of Diana's singing on that album, I still knew and understood why she'd been chosen to lead later. Your Heart Belongs To Me was the [[only) highlight of that album. I still love that song and vocal performance.

I thought Mary's and Flo's leads were unremarkable, although I did like the fun and energy of Buttered Popcorn. [[This 11 year old had no idea of double meanings!) I was disappointed because I had expected all three Supremes to be special and remarkable singers.

[Ollie9]

I had the same experience, Ollie9, here in California [[LA)! I was 11, riding in the car with my family, and Stop! comes on the radio. That voice captivated me from the start. It was truly like no other singer or voice. I didn't know who Ross was but I soon learned about the Supremes. Mary & Flo of course became important on television and record covers, because the Supremes were truly a group [[then). But you just knew you were hearing a new Supremes record every time because of that unmistakable voice. She could have been singing with any two other girls [[as was apparently so at times).

I first heard Mary & Flo on Meet The Supremes. Although I was put-off by the "primitiveness" of the songs and much of Diana's singing on that album, I still knew and understood why she'd been chosen to lead later. Your Heart Belongs To Me was the [[only) highlight of that album. I still love that song and vocal performance.

I thought Mary's and Flo's leads were unremarkable, although I did like the fun and energy of Buttered Popcorn. [[This 11 year old had no idea of double meanings!) I was disappointed because I had expected all three Supremes to be special and remarkable singers.

Its nice to learn other fans experiences of hearing the Supremes for the first time lucky. I would go as far to say that for the majority [[not all) Supremes fans it was the kittenish , pleading dulcet tones of Diana’s voice that made those records special and the reason we are still discussing the group today.
As regards “Buttered Popcorn”, the first time l ever heard it l thought it sounded a bit rude. So glad I’m not the only one lol.

[Bluebrock]

I had the same experience, Ollie9, here in California [[LA)! I was 11, riding in the car with my family, and Stop! comes on the radio. That voice captivated me from the start. It was truly like no other singer or voice. I didn't know who Ross was but I soon learned about the Supremes. Mary & Flo of course became important on television and record covers, because the Supremes were truly a group [[then). But you just knew you were hearing a new Supremes record every time because of that unmistakable voice. She could have been singing with any two other girls [[as was apparently so at times).

I first heard Mary & Flo on Meet The Supremes. Although I was put-off by the "primitiveness" of the songs and much of Diana's singing on that album, I still knew and understood why she'd been chosen to lead later. Your Heart Belongs To Me was the [[only) highlight of that album. I still love that song and vocal performance.

I thought Mary's and Flo's leads were unremarkable, although I did like the fun and energy of Buttered Popcorn. [[This 11 year old had no idea of double meanings!) I was disappointed because I had expected all three Supremes to be special and remarkable singers.
I have to agree with you. I didn't hear anything special in Mary and Flo's voices that made me sit up and think they could have found any notable success as solo artists. I have always found Mary's voice to be dull and bland, and whilst Flo undoubtably had a loud voice it never moved me any shape or form, and was not distinctive in any positive way. I do think Mary and Flo were excellent backing vocalists, which is in itself an accomplishment, but as lead vocalists they left me underwhelmed. I think Berry knew this from the onset and wisely concentrated on the girl who could make him seriously wealthy, and boy didn't she do just that.

[sup_fan]

I have to agree with you. I didn't hear anything special in Mary and Flo's voices that made me sit up and think they could have found any notable success as solo artists. I have always found Mary's voice to be dull and bland, and whilst Flo undoubtably had a loud voice it never moved me any shape or form, and was not distinctive in any positive way. I do think Mary and Flo were excellent backing vocalists, which is in itself an accomplishment, but as lead vocalists they left me underwhelmed. I think Berry knew this from the onset and wisely concentrated on the girl who could make him seriously wealthy, and boy didn't she do just that.

agreed although i do think both M and F could have excelled as lead singers in more specific genres. I think Mary could have [[with practice and training) excelled as a jazz and blues singer. and Flo really had a way of conveying humor through song. again with training, she could have found a niche too. neither though had the wide versatility of Diana. frankly no other female artist at Motown did.

[TYK1986]

Not sure if either of them would have been good as lead singer. Like I mentioned a few times earlier is that Florence sounded, not going to say bad, but just not very good on her solo records after she left in '67. I do tend to like a few of Mary's leads but I couldn't listen to a whole album with just Mary. I think I tend to like their voices because it's often just 1 song that breaks up Diana's voice throughout the whole album. Same with Cindy. As much as I like her I don't think she was up to sing lead. I like her voice on the background and when she does a verse here and there.

Background in the early years sounded just like any other girl group background. Stop in the name on where the action is has a very good blend of how Mary and Florence could blend perfectly. The harmony and especially at the end is very good. It's the only version that I think sounds better than the released single. But then Florence and Mary sounded pretty bad on the alternate version of Stop.

[sup_fan]

Not sure if either of them would have been good as lead singer. Like I mentioned a few times earlier is that Florence sounded, not going to say bad, but just not very good on her solo records after she left in '67. I do tend to like a few of Mary's leads but I couldn't listen to a whole album with just Mary. I think I tend to like their voices because it's often just 1 song that breaks up Diana's voice throughout the whole album. Same with Cindy. As much as I like her I don't think she was up to sing lead. I like her voice on the background and when she does a verse here and there.

Background in the early years sounded just like any other girl group background. Stop in the name on where the action is has a very good blend of how Mary and Florence could blend perfectly. The harmony and especially at the end is very good. It's the only version that I think sounds better than the released single. But then Florence and Mary sounded pretty bad on the alternate version of Stop.

i agree that neither of the had the versatility to make a full album exciting. at least not without more training and development.

now on the positive side, flo's Good News is wonderful. and a song or two with that attitude and sass would be great. Also, although a brief line, i adore her lines in Breathtaking Guy. just a beautifully smooth soprano. curious how that could have be developed into a full song.

on the other hand, i find People to be difficult to get through. but part of that is the funeral dirge pace of the song!! if they'd picked it up a bit and let her have a bit more movement with it, it might have worked better. same with the 2 holiday leads.

so i think they could have done something with Flo but needed work

Mary had some excellent moments too. her lead snippets in Christmas Song are fabulous. she FINALLY really works the lyric and adds some emotion into it. many of her other leads are just too bland. I'd have liked to hear her tackled a bit more of the CW album.

[floyjoy678]

i agree that neither of the had the versatility to make a full album exciting. at least not without more training and development.

now on the positive side, flo's Good News is wonderful. and a song or two with that attitude and sass would be great. Also, although a brief line, i adore her lines in Breathtaking Guy. just a beautifully smooth soprano. curious how that could have be developed into a full song.

on the other hand, i find People to be difficult to get through. but part of that is the funeral dirge pace of the song!! if they'd picked it up a bit and let her have a bit more movement with it, it might have worked better. same with the 2 holiday leads.

so i think they could have done something with Flo but needed work

Mary had some excellent moments too. her lead snippets in Christmas Song are fabulous. she FINALLY really works the lyric and adds some emotion into it. many of her other leads are just too bland. I'd have liked to hear her tackled a bit more of the CW album.

I love Flo's line in Breathtaking Guy as well. It actually took me a while to realize it was her! Lol I had always thought it was Diana. I wonder if it might have worked had Diana and Flo traded lines during the verses as well.

[Ollie9]

I would have loved for Mary and particularly Flo to have been given a couple of solo songs on the R & H album. Their background work on this set is exemplary and for me the best of their Supremes career. They certainly add to to the enjoyment of the entire album with each of their personalities shining through.
Flo might have led on This Can’t Be Love” and perhaps a duet with Diana on “I Could Write A Book”. “Thou Swell” would have made another great duet for Diana and Mary.
The only song l think Diana sounds weak on is “Spring Is Here”, which perhaps would have been better suited to Mary’s voice.

[Circa 1824]

I would have loved for Mary and particularly Flo to have been given a couple of solo songs on the R & H album. Their background work on this set is exemplary and for me the best of their Supremes career. They certainly add to to the enjoyment of the entire album with each of their personalities shining through.
Flo might have led on This Can’t Be Love” and perhaps a duet with Diana on “I Could Write A Book”. “Thou Swell” would have made another great duet for Diana and Mary.
The only song l think Diana sounds weak on is “Spring Is Here”, which perhaps would have been better suited to Mary’s voice.

Are there any Vandella songs that one of the backup Vandellas should have sung rather than Martha? Should one of the Tops or Miracles have taken a couple leads from Levi or Smokey?

[Ollie9]

Are there any Vandella songs that one of the backup Vandellas should have sung rather than Martha? Should one of the Tops or Miracles have taken a couple leads from Levi or Smokey?

Not so sure regarding MR&V as am not really a huge fan. Certainly I would have like to have heard Lawrence Payton featured on more of the Four Tops albums. He had such a beautiful, smooth tone to his voice in contrast to the more strident, ear grabbing sound of Levi.

[sup_fan]

I would have loved for Mary and particularly Flo to have been given a couple of solo songs on the R & H album. Their background work on this set is exemplary and for me the best of their Supremes career. They certainly add to to the enjoyment of the entire album with each of their personalities shining through.
Flo might have led on This Can’t Be Love” and perhaps a duet with Diana on “I Could Write A Book”. “Thou Swell” would have made another great duet for Diana and Mary.
The only song l think Diana sounds weak on is “Spring Is Here”, which perhaps would have been better suited to Mary’s voice.

i agree. while the R&H set is stellar, i think i would have liked it even more if it was approached with more of group concept. compare it to the There's A Place For Us album which has more group interplay, more 3part harmonies, etc.

as for This Can't Be Love - i don't know about Flo on that one. based on her solo lp, i don't find her work on bouncy little pop tunes to be appealing. of all the tracks in R&H, Johnny One Note is the one i hear her singing - it's fast but has the comic lyrics that i think she could have had fun with. of the released tracks, what about a big power ballad like Where or When?

for Mary, i love FAlling in Love. it's fun as a duet but wonder if they could have structured the song differently. Mary sing the first verse totally solo. Diana joins and they duet on the second verse and then have Flo come in for the ending. it's almost how they did the song - just giving mary the first verse. of the unreleased tracks, Mary would have been lovely on Spring is Here.

[Ollie9]

i agree. while the R&H set is stellar, i think i would have liked it even more if it was approached with more of group concept. compare it to the There's A Place For Us album which has more group interplay, more 3part harmonies, etc.

as for This Can't Be Love - i don't know about Flo on that one. based on her solo lp, i don't find her work on bouncy little pop tunes to be appealing. of all the tracks in R&H, Johnny One Note is the one i hear her singing - it's fast but has the comic lyrics that i think she could have had fun with. of the released tracks, what about a big power ballad like Where or When?

for Mary, i love FAlling in Love. it's fun as a duet but wonder if they could have structured the song differently. Mary sing the first verse totally solo. Diana joins and they duet on the second verse and then have Flo come in for the ending. it's almost how they did the song - just giving mary the first verse. of the unreleased tracks, Mary would have been lovely on Spring is Here.

‘Johnny One Note’ quite possibly, but l can’t really hear Flo on ‘Where Or When’.
I find the 2002 edition of the complete recordings a little chilly sounding. I longed for the warmth of the vinyl LP on this one.

[sup_fan]

‘Johnny One Note’ quite possibly, but l can’t really hear Flo on ‘Where Or When’.
I find the 2002 edition of the complete recordings a little chilly sounding. I longed for the warmth of the vinyl LP on this one.

the lyrics of Johnny remind me of Mame and even [[to a degree) Good News. obviously totally different story line but there's lyrical wit in all three songs which i think Flo really could capture

another Flo tune might be Lover

[Ollie9]

the lyrics of Johnny remind me of Mame and even [[to a degree) Good News. obviously totally different story line but there's lyrical wit in all three songs which i think Flo really could capture

another Flo tune might be Lover

Nah, l love Diana’s lead on “Lover”, complete with Flo’ and Mary’s superb background vocals. I do agree that Flo’s voice might have been better suited to ‘JON’ as Diana’s voice is a little overextended on that one. All songs are superb, but ‘Thou Swell’ remains my favourite from the original album. Of songs not included on the original release, l would definitely have kept “Blue Room”.
Proving something of a revelation for me was Diana’s mature and sensitive vocal on “My Funny Valentine”. Her vocal growth is amazing.

[sup_fan]

Blue Room is a favorite of mine too. an excellent recording and an excellent performance by the girls

[RanRan79]

The attraction to music is, as Ollie pointed out, subjective. Of course Diana's voice, as lead vocalist, is always going to be a star of the show, but for many folks, the singer's voice can only carry the song so far. There's a lot that goes into making a song popular. I'd opine that thoughts regarding any of these songs might change if the lyrics weren't written by HDH or music played by the Funk Brothers, both of which are often integral to the popularity of many of the Supremes hits. I wonder what the thoughts would be if Diana were singing songs at Stax written by Isaac Hayes or David Porter and being backed up by Booker T and the MGs.

In any case, perhaps I'm the minority in this forum on this one, so I'll just have to wear that crown. Diana Ross is icing on a Supremes cake for me, but I've never been a fan of icing alone, so it's the combo of the icing and the cake that make this group my favorite. To add, I also find the Funk Bros to be an ingredient of the cake. I find the Supremes a tad less appealing when not fronting that marvelous band. [["Love Is Here and Now You're Gone", not a Funk Bros cut, is easily in my top 5 favorite Supremes hits, go figure.)

[reese]

The attraction to music is, as Ollie pointed out, subjective. Of course Diana's voice, as lead vocalist, is always going to be a star of the show, but for many folks, the singer's voice can only carry the song so far. There's a lot that goes into making a song popular. I'd opine that thoughts regarding any of these songs might change if the lyrics weren't written by HDH or music played by the Funk Brothers, both of which are often integral to the popularity of many of the Supremes hits. I wonder what the thoughts would be if Diana were singing songs at Stax written by Isaac Hayes or David Porter and being backed up by Booker T and the MGs.

In any case, perhaps I'm the minority in this forum on this one, so I'll just have to wear that crown. Diana Ross is icing on a Supremes cake for me, but I've never been a fan of icing alone, so it's the combo of the icing and the cake that make this group my favorite. To add, I also find the Funk Bros to be an ingredient of the cake. I find the Supremes a tad less appealing when not fronting that marvelous band. [["Love Is Here and Now You're Gone", not a Funk Bros cut, is easily in my top 5 favorite Supremes hits, go figure.)

Diana on Stax? That's an interesting one. I could hear Diana doing some of Carla Thomas' material like COMFORT ME, B-A-B-Y, and SOMETHING GOOD IS GONNA HAPPEN TO YOU.

[RanRan79]

Diana on Stax? That's an interesting one. I could hear Diana doing some of Carla Thomas' material like COMFORT ME, B-A-B-Y, and SOMETHING GOOD IS GONNA HAPPEN TO YOU.

Wouldn't that be something? I once offered in the forum that Diana vocally matured to the point that I think it's a mistake to suggest that she wouldn't have been able to fit in over at Stax. Remember, the vocal approach that Diana took during the hitmaking years was often far different from what she walked through the door with. She tore through "Right Way" with a force that rivals some of the other ladies at Motown who are considered so called more "soulful". Had Diana, for whatever reason, gone to Stax around that time, it's an interesting thought to ponder what she may have accomplished there. Obviously doubtful she would've become what she eventually became, as I don't think anyone at Stax was thinking like Gordy, but we may have still known her name. Flo and Mary for sure would've probably benefitted more as lead singers at a place like Stax. All conjecture, of course.

[reese]

Wouldn't that be something? I once offered in the forum that Diana vocally matured to the point that I think it's a mistake to suggest that she wouldn't have been able to fit in over at Stax. Remember, the vocal approach that Diana took during the hitmaking years was often far different from what she walked through the door with. She tore through "Right Way" with a force that rivals some of the other ladies at Motown who are considered so called more "soulful". Had Diana, for whatever reason, gone to Stax around that time, it's an interesting thought to ponder what she may have accomplished there. Obviously doubtful she would've become what she eventually became, as I don't think anyone at Stax was thinking like Gordy, but we may have still known her name. Flo and Mary for sure would've probably benefitted more as lead singers at a place like Stax. All conjecture, of course.

Interesting conjecture, though.

Ironically, Stax president Al Bell has said on a few occasions that he had hopes that Carla could gain the kind of success that Diana did, thinking that the Stax sound might have been too rough for her voice. To that end, her recordings seemed to become more pop-ish as the years went by. And the label also went all out, arranging a showcase for Carla at the Bohemian Caverns, where she recorded a live set with standards, songs like MAS QUE NADA, but few of her own hits. Unfortunately, the set remained unreleased for 30 years or more, which must have been a huge disappointment for Carla.

[Ollie9]

Wouldn't that be something? I once offered in the forum that Diana vocally matured to the point that I think it's a mistake to suggest that she wouldn't have been able to fit in over at Stax. Remember, the vocal approach that Diana took during the hitmaking years was often far different from what she walked through the door with. She tore through "Right Way" with a force that rivals some of the other ladies at Motown who are considered so called more "soulful". Had Diana, for whatever reason, gone to Stax around that time, it's an interesting thought to ponder what she may have accomplished there. Obviously doubtful she would've become what she eventually became, as I don't think anyone at Stax was thinking like Gordy, but we may have still known her name. Flo and Mary for sure would've probably benefitted more as lead singers at a place like Stax. All conjecture, of course.

I never thought those early Supremes singles such as “Let Me Go The Right Way” captured the essence or beauty of the Ross voice. Possibly the reason why they never took off. For that reason alone l can’t imagine Diana and Stax being a musical match made in heaven.

[Bluebrock]

I never thought those early Supremes singles such as “Let Me Go The Right Way” captured the essence or beauty of the Ross voice. Possibly the reason why they never took off. For that reason alone l can’t imagine Diana and Stax being a musical match made in heaven.
Agreed. I don't think her voice would have been a good fit for Stax. Motown eventually played to Diana's vocal strengths and i am not sure Stax would have been so careful and patient in developing her raw but obvious potential.
Motown was the perfect home for her in those crucial early days of her development.

[RanRan79]

Interesting conjecture, though.

Ironically, Stax president Al Bell has said on a few occasions that he had hopes that Carla could gain the kind of success that Diana did, thinking that the Stax sound might have been too rough for her voice. To that end, her recordings seemed to become more pop-ish as the years went by. And the label also went all out, arranging a showcase for Carla at the Bohemian Caverns, where she recorded a live set with standards, songs like MAS QUE NADA, but few of her own hits. Unfortunately, the set remained unreleased for 30 years or more, which must have been a huge disappointment for Carla.

Interesting regarding Carla. Never knew that. I'm guessing though, that without Diana and the Supremes as a blueprint, Al may not have thought of Carla in those terms.

[RanRan79]

I never thought those early Supremes singles such as “Let Me Go The Right Way” captured the essence or beauty of the Ross voice. Possibly the reason why they never took off. For that reason alone l can’t imagine Diana and Stax being a musical match made in heaven.

For me "Right Way" is one of her best vocal moments. Shows just how versatile she is. She really could sing just about anything. A shame that Gordy attempted to coach the more forceful side of her voice out. I listen to "Right Way" and then I listen to "Honey Boy" and think "what a waste".

[sup_fan]

For me "Right Way" is one of her best vocal moments. Shows just how versatile she is. She really could sing just about anything. A shame that Gordy attempted to coach the more forceful side of her voice out. I listen to "Right Way" and then I listen to "Honey Boy" and think "what a waste".

Let Me Go has a definite stronger R&B vibe to it. While there's nothing wrong with that, that wasn't Gordy's goal. he had stated that from the beginning, he wanted to find a female pop singer that could appeal to whites and blacks, that could sing MOR songs and move into high $ club work. That's part of the reason why Mabel John [[a close personal friend before during and after her tenure at Motown) left the label. she just wasn't quite the right sound for him

Let Me Go is a great tune and fun early song for the girls. I actually listen to it quite a bit, along with You Bring Back. But both are a much rougher sound than even Lovelight. much less Baby Love.

this rougher sound IMO fit Martha's or Gladys' vocal styles better.

[RanRan79]

But he was the one who produced "Let Me Go the Right Way". So if his goal was always this fabled crossover female, and he had set his sights on Diana for the job, why cut and release and apparently heavily promote it?

He did obviously push her in a different direction later on vocally, but she didn't always do a "Honey Boy" style vocal. Her lead on "You Can't Hurry Love" is as soulful as anything else they had done. She ripped the shit out of those lyrics.

[sup_fan]

But he was the one who produced "Let Me Go the Right Way". So if his goal was always this fabled crossover female, and he had set his sights on Diana for the job, why cut and release and apparently heavily promote it?

He did obviously push her in a different direction later on vocally, but she didn't always do a "Honey Boy" style vocal. Her lead on "You Can't Hurry Love" is as soulful as anything else they had done. She ripped the shit out of those lyrics.

i think the idea in 62 was to just get SOMETHING to click with the Supremes. It wasn't that Berry would never product anything but vanilla MOR. i just thing long term, the sound and aggressiveness of LMGTRW wasn't what he was looking for. apparently, according to his bio, he mixed and mixed and mixed that single. continually tinkering with it.