1981 - would a different label have made a difference?

[sup_fan]

in Randy's book he mentions how several labels made strong offers to Diana in 81:

Neil Bogart offered $15M to sign with Boardwalk

David Geffen offered $15M to sign with Geffen

Polygram also made a substantial offer

at RCA, Diana demanded total control yet she wasn't really equipped to handle things. and the RCA execs were too deferential to stand up to her. and eventually both sides grew to dislike one another

did these other labels have execs or producers that might have made a difference? I'm just not as familiar with each of these other labels

also where was Clive Davis at this time - was Arista ever a contender for her?

[reese]

I think executives like Neil Bogart and David Geffen would have requested more input into Diana's recordings for their labels. I recall reading how Geffen actually canned Donna Summer's intended second album for his label because he wasn't pleased with it and then enlisted Quincy Jones to produce a new one for her.

I believe Clive Davis would have done the same. But in 1981, Clive had both Aretha and Dionne to keep on the charts. It might have been too much to add another diva to his list.

I don't think RCA had that type of figurehead on deck. And at that point, creative control probably wasn't something Diana wanted to give up. I think she might have even been quoted as saying as much around this time.

[Circa 1824]

RCA + Diana Ross = Malignant Cancer

[sup_fan]

I think executives like Neil Bogart and David Geffen would have requested more input into Diana's recordings for their labels. I recall reading how Geffen actually canned Donna Summer's intended second album for his label because he wasn't pleased with it and then enlisted Quincy Jones to produce a new one for her.

I believe Clive Davis would have done the same. But in 1981, Clive had both Aretha and Dionne to keep on the charts. It might have been too much to add another diva to his list.

I don't think RCA had that type of figurehead on deck. And at that point, creative control probably wasn't something Diana wanted to give up. I think she might have even been quoted as saying as much around this time.

interesting! didn't know about Clive, Aretha and Dionne. you're right. Diana would not have worked there

[TNSUN]

Diana Ross' song "I Am Me" explains it all. For me as a fan, every album is still a listening adventure. I do especially like "Summertime". Was it released as a single song? My favorite albums of all remain, film soundtrack, "Lady Sings The Blues" and "Touch Me in the Morning".

[Bluebrock]

in Randy's book he mentions how several labels made strong offers to Diana in 81:

Neil Bogart offered $15M to sign with Boardwalk

David Geffen offered $15M to sign with Geffen

Polygram also made a substantial offer

at RCA, Diana demanded total control yet she wasn't really equipped to handle things. and the RCA execs were too deferential to stand up to her. and eventually both sides grew to dislike one another

did these other labels have execs or producers that might have made a difference? I'm just not as familiar with each of these other labels

also where was Clive Davis at this time - was Arista ever a contender for her?

I do not believe Clive Davis ever officially approached her to join the Arista roster. He already had three needy divas in Aretha, Dionne and Phyllis Hyman to please as well as the less needy but wonderfully talented Angela Bofill. Diana would not have appreciated all those Diva's competing with her for Clive's attention. She always wants to be Queen Bee. Of course a certain Whitney Houston would also later add to the competition at poor Phyllis's expense. It would never have worked, but he did try to sign her up to his fledgling J label in the noughties. Strangely enough she resisted his advances.

[Bluebrock]

I think executives like Neil Bogart and David Geffen would have requested more input into Diana's recordings for their labels. I recall reading how Geffen actually canned Donna Summer's intended second album for his label because he wasn't pleased with it and then enlisted Quincy Jones to produce a new one for her.

I believe Clive Davis would have done the same. But in 1981, Clive had both Aretha and Dionne to keep on the charts. It might have been too much to add another diva to his list.

I don't think RCA had that type of figurehead on deck. And at that point, creative control probably wasn't something Diana wanted to give up. I think she might have even been quoted as saying as much around this time.
Quite correct. Diana would not have been given the free reign she demanded at RCA.That could only have been a good thing in my opinion. We would have been treated to better quality albums.
Can you imagine the likes of Clive Davis, Neil Bogart and David Geffen giving the green light to release garbage like Why do Fools and Silk Electric? No.Neither can i.

[sup_fan]

Quite correct. Diana would not have been given the free reign she demanded at RCA.That could only have been a good thing in my opinion. We would have been treated to better quality albums.
Can you imagine the likes of Clive Davis, Neil Bogart and David Geffen giving the green light to release garbage like Why do Fools and Silk Electric? No.Neither can i.

nor would Clive ever have allowed the hideous Eaten Alive to be released lol ;)

so basically half [[or more lol) of her RCA output wouldn't have made it lol

[Bluebrock]

nor would Clive ever have allowed the hideous Eaten Alive to be released lol ;)

so basically half [[or more lol) of her RCA output wouldn't have made it lol

Clive is a friend of Barry Gibb's so i think he would have approved the project. He would probably have insisted on a few tweaks here and there, and he would hopefully have binned the title track, or at the very least insisted upon a radical remix.

[midnightman]

I couldn't see Diana being with another label. She was so omnipresent at Motown that when she left, it seemed like the company went with it... I always wondered what would've happened had she demanded Berry give her a better contract but I guess when a label stays in the red, you have no choice but to leave?

[jobeterob]

I believe a different label with a stronger head would have made some difference.

Arista had too many hot headed females but if they coped with Aretha Franklin, they probably could have coped with Diana - but those two on the same label would make no sense.

[Bluebrock]

RCA + Diana Ross = Malignant Cancer

What a horrible description. However disappointing the RCA years may have been i find your comparison with cancer to be in very bad taste. There is no need to stoop so low to make your point. Not nice.

[Roberta75]

RCA + Diana Ross = Malignant Cancer

What a vile statement.

[PeaceNHarmony]

Quite correct. Diana would not have been given the free reign she demanded at RCA.That could only have been a good thing in my opinion. We would have been treated to better quality albums.
Can you imagine the likes of Clive Davis, Neil Bogart and David Geffen giving the green light to release garbage like Why do Fools and Silk Electric? No.Neither can i.In my opinion the Clive Davis string of karaoke lps [[I'm still waiting for 'Pia Zadora Sings The Best of Anita Bryant') are far, far worse and more artistically bereft lps! That Aretha's last studio lp was the dismal 'Diva' covers makes me sad.

[PeaceNHarmony]

What a vile statement.There are some vile posters on this forum, that's for sure.

[sup_fan]

to bring us back to the original question, what about the other labels then? Sounds like Clive and Arista were never even in the mix. So what about Geffen or Broadwalk or Polydor?

[vgalindo]

What a vile statement.
I agree. Such a bad statement. But I happen to love the RCA years.

[jobeterob]

I don't think the RCA years were all that bad - just maybe don't measure up to classics like More Hits by the Supremes, diana, and Lady Sings the Blues. I liked Eaten Alive, Fools and Red Hot R & B. Songs like Summertime, how can that not be seen as superlative. There were lots of strong cuts on Eaten Alive - just not the first single. And the song, Why Do Fools, while not amongst my favorites, is a "must sing" for Diana concerts - the average joe loves that.

[JohnnyB]

[QUOTE=jobeterob;594477]I don't think the RCA years were all that bad - just maybe don't measure up to classics like More Hits by the Supremes, diana, and Lady Sings the Blues. I liked Eaten Alive, Fools and Red Hot R & B. Songs like Summertime, how can that not be seen as superlative. There were lots of strong cuts on Eaten Alive - just not the first single. And the song, Why Do Fools, while not amongst my favorites, is a "must sing" for Diana concerts - the average joe loves that.[/QUOTE

Diana’s sales began to slip as the eighties progressed, but I’m not convinced a different label would have made much difference. The changes in the music industry would have still occurred along with Diana’s sound needing to evolve with the times. She still would have “aged out” of the pop market just as most of her peers had. The introductions of MTV, Madonna and Whitney and the publications of Those Books would still have occurred. The albums may have been stronger, but may not have garnered stronger sales results.

[Albator]

Maybe Diana bluffed tremendously well, and at RCA, Bob Summer thought he had signed an artist like Barbra Streisand. It was 1981, Diana had just had a lot of hits, from R&B to symphonic ballads.


At Geffen, her fate would have been disastrous. Geffen confessed that he couldn't promote Donna Summer on rock radio, where he wanted her to go. With Diana, it would have been the same.

[captainjames]

I think if Diana was not allowed to grow by this time she may have ended up going back home to raise her family or something. I think she had outgrown Berry Gordy so to speak and wanted to grow as Diana Ross thinks not Diana Ross robot. I remember Gordy saying something to the fact that he could not compete with the other offer and didn't have the money.

Let's think about this for a moment when she left she was given like $200,000 for her work as a Supreme and as a solo. Remember now she paid her share for gowns, recording studio time, musicians, travel etc. By the way how many of those gowns did she keep ? 3 maybe ? Same deal with Florence but let's move on.

She wanted creative control and production rights from what I remember. She was hot off her last singles so most companies would have made an offer to collect some of that stardust. She was no longer Motown's puppet as people around her were probably saying. She had to know if she could do it and I get that. None of those companies were going to make it any better it had to come from within her and what she wanted to express.

I enjoyed it because it was Diana telling us this is Diana. I always thought Dirty Looks had a deeper meaning.

[Ollie9]

I think if Diana was not allowed to grow by this time she may have ended up going back home to raise her family or something. I think she had outgrown Berry Gordy so to speak and wanted to grow as Diana Ross thinks not Diana Ross robot. I remember Gordy saying something to the fact that he could not compete with the other offer and didn't have the money.

She wanted creative control and production rights from what I remember. She was hot off her last singles so most companies would have made an offer to collect some of that stardust. She was no longer Motown's puppet as people around her were probably saying. She had to know if she could do it and I get that. None of those companies were going to make it any better it had to come from within her and what she wanted to express.

I enjoyed it because it was Diana telling us this is Diana. I always thought Dirty Looks had a deeper meaning.

I really can’t imagine Diana would have hung up her heels at that point in time no matter what her position She was at the peak of her popularity and was keen to make the Josephine Baker movie. Perhaps tighter reigns on creative control from another record label might have made for better quality albums that were worthy of her talents. Financially she of course did the right thing.
I would have loved to have been a fly on the wall to hear the reaction of RCA execs upon hearing those self produced efforts for the first time. :eek:

[Bluebrock]

I really can’t imagine Diana would have hung up her heels at that point in time no matter what her position She was at the peak of her popularity and was keen to make the Josephine Baker movie. Perhaps tighter reigns on creative control from another record label might have made for better quality albums that were worthy of her talents. Financially she of course did the right thing.
I would have loved to have been a fly on the wall to hear the reaction of RCA execs upon hearing those self produced efforts for the first time. :eek:

Me too Ollie! I was told of the reaction from EMI UK upon receiving the finished albums of Fools and Silk Electric. To say they were disappointed is something of an understatement. A very good friend of mine who worked there told me of the crushing disappointment throughout the Company, but they insist they did their utmost to make the best of a bad situation. I would have made some different decisions had i been in charge but it is true to say you cannot polish a turd so we cannot be too harsh on them!

[RanRan79]

I really can’t imagine Diana would have hung up her heels at that point in time no matter what her position She was at the peak of her popularity and was keen to make the Josephine Baker movie. Perhaps tighter reigns on creative control from another record label might have made for better quality albums that were worthy of her talents. Financially she of course did the right thing.
I would have loved to have been a fly on the wall to hear the reaction of RCA execs upon hearing those self produced efforts for the first time. :eek:

I agree Ollie. If Diana were ever going to give music up and focus on something else, it would've been right before the Supremes made it big. Once she became a singing sensation, she wasn't giving that up. Only other scenario I could see is if she felt being at home with her children 24/7 for one reason or another was necessary. At that point I think she would've found someway to do that because it appears she prioritized her children and worked her career around them.

Another label would've made a huge difference. For whatever reason RCA was willing to put up with Diana's crap. Surely there were other labels who would've found a way to ensure that Diana made good on that 20 million dollar return investment. As was pointed out in another thread, it's the music business, so what good business did it make to hand this lady 20 million and then allow her to carve out an inferior career chapter at the new label compared to what she accomplished at Motown? A strong label head would've squashed at least half- and I'm being generous to Diana by saying half- of Diana's output at RCA.

I also agree with Captain's point about Diana needing to stretch her wings. It's the same thing I say about Mary Wilson. These ladies were under the umbrella of Motown and "Daddy" Gordy since they were 16 years old. At 30 something, they are bound to desire something different, something more. They are going to want to venture out and see what they can do. For Diana, that growth first came with leaving the Supremes and making it. Next, it was time to take over her own career, be her own woman. Because of their personal relationship, Gordy should've understood this.

Maybe Gordy couldn't match the offers Diana was getting, but had he sat down with her, offered her as much money as he could get as close to the other offers, agreed to hand over any and all business obligations that Motown still controlled for this nearly 40 year old woman and gave in to her desire to have more creative control, she probably would've stayed. And honestly, I like quite a bit of Motown's 80s output, and feel that Diana could've been as relevant as long as Stevie was. Diana remixing that Chic album shows that she wasn't completely clueless to the production side of music, but with a label like Motown hovering, I think we would've been spared a ton of crap. And some of the RCA cuts that were good to great, may have been even better.

[RanRan79]

Diana’s sales began to slip as the eighties progressed, but I’m not convinced a different label would have made much difference. The changes in the music industry would have still occurred along with Diana’s sound needing to evolve with the times. She still would have “aged out” of the pop market just as most of her peers had. The introductions of MTV, Madonna and Whitney and the publications of Those Books would still have occurred. The albums may have been stronger, but may not have garnered stronger sales results.

I disagree. With actual good music, maybe some tweaks to the image, I think the momentum of the early 80s could've been prolonged throughout the entire decade. However, back to Captain's suggestion that Diana would've hung it up, I think had she stared in the face a reality where music was not going to keep her on top, she would've focused on movies and maybe even fashion. Perhaps the big mistake was Diana returning to Motown. Maybe at that point she should've made acting her job priority and maybe do an album every few years, perhaps the soundtrack to one of her movies, or a specialty project like Stolen Moments.

[sup_fan]

[QUOTE=jobeterob;594477]I don't think the RCA years were all that bad - just maybe don't measure up to classics like More Hits by the Supremes, diana, and Lady Sings the Blues. I liked Eaten Alive, Fools and Red Hot R & B. Songs like Summertime, how can that not be seen as superlative. There were lots of strong cuts on Eaten Alive - just not the first single. And the song, Why Do Fools, while not amongst my favorites, is a "must sing" for Diana concerts - the average joe loves that.[/QUOTE

Diana’s sales began to slip as the eighties progressed, but I’m not convinced a different label would have made much difference. The changes in the music industry would have still occurred along with Diana’s sound needing to evolve with the times. She still would have “aged out” of the pop market just as most of her peers had. The introductions of MTV, Madonna and Whitney and the publications of Those Books would still have occurred. The albums may have been stronger, but may not have garnered stronger sales results.

Diana, Smokey, Lionel, Stevie all declined as the 80s went on. very very very few artists or acts can maintain broad public interest and appeal for multiple decades [[and speaking about the US audience). If someone was 15 in 1965 and 25 in 1975, they would still be strong candidates for buying the artist's product. if they had a younger sibling, they could extend that for another 5 - 10 years simply because the younger sibling is often influenced by the older.

but by 85, that 60s era teenage is now 35 and could have a 10 or 12 year old child themselves! kids are not typically interested in following musicians that their PARENTS listened to. Mega stars can sometimes swing a few additional years. but they fade as tastes change

Madonna struck it big at the end of 84 and into 85. huge hits followed through the 90s and into the early 00s. Music sold 11 million. but hard candy sold 4 million. MDNA sold less.

Mariah - huge in the late 80s, 90s and into 00s but not so today.

Justin, Beyonce, Whitney, ARetha, Cher and many many more tend to follow the same pattern.

[PeaceNHarmony]

In a word: No.

[Ollie9]

Me too Ollie! I was told of the reaction from EMI UK upon receiving the finished albums of Fools and Silk Electric. To say they were disappointed is something of an understatement. A very good friend of mine who worked there told me of the crushing disappointment throughout the Company, but they insist they did their utmost to make the best of a bad situation. I would have made some different decisions had i been in charge but it is true to say you cannot polish a turd so we cannot be too harsh on them!

I can well imagine. I’m curious as to what they did to make the best of a bad situation lol. “Why Do Fools” and “Mirror Mirror saved the day day I guess. The down side being that the record company then allowed her another shot at producing with even worse results.

[Ollie9]

Another label would've made a huge difference. For whatever reason RCA was willing to put up with Diana's crap. Surely there were other labels who would've found a way to ensure that Diana made good on that 20 million dollar return investment. As was pointed out in another thread, it's the music business, so what good business did it make to hand this lady 20 million and then allow her to carve out an inferior career chapter at the new label compared to what she accomplished at Motown? A strong label head would've squashed at least half- and I'm being generous to Diana by saying half- of Diana's output at RCA

Maybe Gordy couldn't match the offers Diana was getting, but had he sat down with her, offered her as much money as he could get as close to the other offers, agreed to hand over any and all business obligations that Motown still controlled for this nearly 40 year old woman and gave in to her desire to have more creative control, she probably would've stayed. And honestly, I like quite a bit of Motown's 80s output, and feel that Diana could've been as relevant as long as Stevie was. Diana remixing that Chic album shows that she wasn't completely clueless to the production side of music, but with a label like Motown hovering, I think we would've been spared a ton of crap. And some of the RCA cuts that were good to great, may have been even better.

What might have been huh. Starting with ‘The Boss’, it appeared Diana enjoyed a fair amount of freedom at Motown regarding who was to produce her records and what songs she wanted to sing. The company handed her complete freedom and control when she chose to remix the entire ‘diana’ album which they originally had doubts about. I also think this was proved when she vetoed any further Masser productions for the ‘To Love Again’ set.
Perhaps at the end of the day it more to do with money then anything else.
God only knows what Motown would have made of WDFFIL.

[Bluebrock]

What might have been huh. Starting with ‘The Boss’, it appeared Diana enjoyed a fair amount of freedom at Motown regarding who was to produce her records and what songs she wanted to sing. The company handed her complete freedom and control when she chose to remix the entire ‘diana’ album which they originally had doubts about. I also think this was proved when she vetoed any further Masser productions for the ‘To Love Again’ set.
Perhaps at the end of the day it more to do with money then anything else.
God only knows what Motown would have made of WDFFIL.
Much as i dislike WDFFIL Berry did sanction the release of Last time i saw him which i regard as her weakest and most uneven Motown album. Many of the outtakes were stronger than the released album. Whatever possessed Berry to press ahead with such an underwhelming album especially when the infinitely superior Touch me in the Morning had other potential singles yet was basically abandoned to make way for LTISH and Diana and Marvin. LTISH should have at the very least been delayed for at least six months. We had a long wait for the Black album so it would have made sense to have spaced the releases out better.
Diana did seize control of her career towards the end of her Motown tenure, but it was financial security that she desired, and Motown could not or as Diana claimed would not enter a bidding war for her services. Money trumped artistic integrity.

[TheMotownManiac]

I agree Ollie. If Diana were ever going to give music up and focus on something else, it would've been right before the Supremes made it big. Once she became a singing sensation, she wasn't giving that up. Only other scenario I could see is if she felt being at home with her children 24/7 for one reason or another was necessary. At that point I think she would've found someway to do that because it appears she prioritized her children and worked her career around them.

Another label would've made a huge difference. For whatever reason RCA was willing to put up with Diana's crap. Surely there were other labels who would've found a way to ensure that Diana made good on that 20 million dollar return investment. As was pointed out in another thread, it's the music business, so what good business did it make to hand this lady 20 million and then allow her to carve out an inferior career chapter at the new label compared to what she accomplished at Motown? A strong label head would've squashed at least half- and I'm being generous to Diana by saying half- of Diana's output at RCA.

I also agree with Captain's point about Diana needing to stretch her wings. It's the same thing I say about Mary Wilson. These ladies were under the umbrella of Motown and "Daddy" Gordy since they were 16 years old. At 30 something, they are bound to desire something different, something more. They are going to want to venture out and see what they can do. For Diana, that growth first came with leaving the Supremes and making it. Next, it was time to take over her own career, be her own woman. Because of their personal relationship, Gordy should've understood this.

Maybe Gordy couldn't match the offers Diana was getting, but had he sat down with her, offered her as much money as he could get as close to the other offers, agreed to hand over any and all business obligations that Motown still controlled for this nearly 40 year old woman and gave in to her desire to have more creative control, she probably would've stayed. And honestly, I like quite a bit of Motown's 80s output, and feel that Diana could've been as relevant as long as Stevie was. Diana remixing that Chic album shows that she wasn't completely clueless to the production side of music, but with a label like Motown hovering, I think we would've been spared a ton of crap. And some of the RCA cuts that were good to great, may have been even better.

her deal was 20+ million for 7 years, to deliver one album per year. RCA to control exploitation for the first 5 releases with no creative input whatsoever in any aspect of the product itself. She did, give in to their begging for a solo Endless Love. Not my fave, but it surely helped it go platinum. In short, their hands were tied, but they did manage one coup: refusal to release Diana LIVE In Central Park. She delivered it, they refused it, and she put together Swept Away. That’s why only 6 albums. Ross was wise enough not to let 1984 go by without product as Ross 83 - was a qualified mega-failure considering the Global Central PArk exposure. What a hot mess that thing was! Folks may dig it now, but it was just awful for the radio at the time.

[TheMotownManiac]

Much as i dislike WDFFIL Berry did sanction the release of Last time i saw him which i regard as her weakest and most uneven Motown album. Many of the outtakes were stronger than the released album. Whatever possessed Berry to press ahead with such an underwhelming album especially when the infinitely superior Touch me in the Morning had other potential singles yet was basically abandoned to make way for LTISH and Diana and Marvin. LTISH should have at the very least been delayed for at least six months. We had a long wait for the Black album so it would have made sense to have spaced the releases out better.
Diana did seize control of her career towards the end of her Motown tenure, but it was financial security that she desired, and Motown could not or as Diana claimed would not enter a bidding war for her services. Money trumped artistic integrity.

I agree with your read on LTISH - what a disappointment. Gordy shelved WeNeed You Because he was so anal about following up a big hit from the same producer, so anal that he took a Dixie land novelty song and followed up a torchy pop ballad like touch me in the morning. It’s been 47 years and I’m still angry every time I think about it. I remember the first time I heard the album, my heart sank when I heard the title cut and for the next 25 minutes nothing that sounded even remotely like a hit. From the sublime to the ridiculous in five months.

[sup_fan]

I can well imagine. I’m curious as to what they did to make the best of a bad situation lol. “Why Do Fools” and “Mirror Mirror saved the day day I guess. The down side being that the record company then allowed her another shot at producing with even worse results.

i think SE came about because Why sold very very well. I doubt that the RCA execs were all that worried about "waxing a masterpiece" as opposed to simply selling records.

the heavy-duty fan reaction to Why is probably stronger than the execs. it was released in the fall, in plenty of time for the holiday sales blitz. the single was released around the same time and flew up the charts.

based on this success, i think they were ok with moving ahead with SE. although the final result is definitely weaker. but at that point they needed the release

[Bluebrock]

I agree with your read on LTISH - what a disappointment. Gordy shelved WeNeed You Because he was so anal about following up a big hit from the same producer, so anal that he took a Dixie land novelty song and followed up a torchy pop ballad like touch me in the morning. It’s been 47 years and I’m still angry every time I think about it. I remember the first time I heard the album, my heart sank when I heard the title cut and for the next 25 minutes nothing that sounded even remotely like a hit. From the sublime to the ridiculous in five months.

TMITM was better exploited in the UK where All of my life became a top 10 hit. We need you or I won't last a day without you could have followed it but Motown USA wanted them to concentrate on LTISH. Utter madness.

[sup_fan]

Much as i dislike WDFFIL Berry did sanction the release of Last time i saw him which i regard as her weakest and most uneven Motown album. Many of the outtakes were stronger than the released album. Whatever possessed Berry to press ahead with such an underwhelming album especially when the infinitely superior Touch me in the Morning had other potential singles yet was basically abandoned to make way for LTISH and Diana and Marvin. LTISH should have at the very least been delayed for at least six months. We had a long wait for the Black album so it would have made sense to have spaced the releases out better.
Diana did seize control of her career towards the end of her Motown tenure, but it was financial security that she desired, and Motown could not or as Diana claimed would not enter a bidding war for her services. Money trumped artistic integrity.

when i first read your post, i though WDFFIL was Where Did Our Love Go! lololol i was like - what the hell!?!?

I do like the song, Last Time but agree there was MUCH untapped potential on the Touch Me album. they should have gone with at least a 2nd, if not a 3rd, single

the duet album is lackluster across the board. a decent album for an average singer but you have f-ing DIANA ROSS and MARVIN GAYE here!!!! both coming off of major hit singles and lps [[Touch Me and Let's Get It On). the project should have been much much better

the song Last Time could been easily held for post-duets. it's funny, catchy, lightweight. excellent for radio and just feels good. is it a career milestone - not of course not. But it and a collection of the various released & canned tracks from this time, could make up an enjoyable lp. Let Masser and Miller handle the majority of the tracks and you have a solid album. the Gaudio ones are ok but so out of place, as are the Baby tracks.

[sup_fan]

TMITM was better exploited in the UK where All of my life became a top 10 hit. We need you or I won't last a day without you could have followed it but Motown USA wanted them to concentrate on LTISH. Utter madness.

agreed - get a second single out of the album. and i would have released the To The Baby lp too. of course that would have required some rejiggering of tracks between the two sets but you could have had a lovely TMITM album sans the Baby tracks [[it's just Brown Baby, Imagine and Save) and used up a few more Blue sessions or even pull in No One's Gonna be a Fool which was her first Masser recording. that would have fit and actually given a bit more variety in tracks too.

[TheMotownManiac]

TMITM was better exploited in the UK where All of my life became a top 10 hit. We need you or I won't last a day without you could have followed it but Motown USA wanted them to concentrate on LTISH. Utter madness.

I think leave a little room, after we need you and all of my life would have hit. However, I’d have been SO tempted to release a 4:49 edit of brown baby/save the children and push it hard after the side one ballads had been exhausted. I’ve always felt Brown baby would have been an interesting experiment worth the effort. It certainly would have hit on the black chart and easy listening.

[BobbyC]

Why would Geffen complain that he couldn't promote Donna Summer on "rock radio?" Why would he need to do that? Summer was the biggest female singer of the 70's/early 80's, she had #1 hits on the pop, dance, black and AC charts. She needed more? Sounds to me like Garth Brooks complaining he wasn't on the dance charts. When Donna was huge, disco had taken over all or most of the pop charts and older, traditionally rock artists like Rod Stewart, Kiss and even The Stones started making dance music. Summer never made any rock records anyway so what was there to promote?

[nomis]

it was only a deal with RCA in some territories - in the UK she was still signed to EMI..it was a clever deal - she had two of the biggest labels promoting her across the globe..I personally love lots of stuff from the 80s era ..the shadow cast by her Motown catalog was always going to loom large

[carlo]

Why would Geffen complain that he couldn't promote Donna Summer on "rock radio?" Why would he need to do that? Summer was the biggest female singer of the 70's/early 80's, she had #1 hits on the pop, dance, black and AC charts. She needed more? Sounds to me like Garth Brooks complaining he wasn't on the dance charts. When Donna was huge, disco had taken over all or most of the pop charts and older, traditionally rock artists like Rod Stewart, Kiss and even The Stones started making dance music. Summer never made any rock records anyway so what was there to promote?

The Wanderer was Donna's first album for Geffen in 1980 and it has a rock-sound to it [[The Wanderer, Cold Love, Stop Me, Nightlife etc), which is what the label wanted from her. By 1980, the popularity of disco and dance music had fallen significantly and rock/new wave was where radio and the industry was heading, so Geffen's comment does not surprise me. She was unfortunately fighting an uphill battle almost the entire time she was on his label.

[nomis]

Diana was furious Geffen finacially backed "Dream Girls" stage show..she told Andy Warhol it was a betrayal...all label heads ultimatley have to answer to the shareholders I dont think Geffen would have agreed to the EMI/Capitol joint distribution deal he is notorious for causing artist feuds with other labels or managers [[Joni Mitchell,Michael Jackson and Madonna for starters) if Diana had signed with him his investment a yr later in "that show" would have soured things badly..one reason Ross chose RCA was she had no personal friendships or connections with ts staff - Diana told Warhol her and Geffen were "nearly intimates" [[whatever that means) she at the time was dating one of Cher's ex boyfriend another as The Geffen head may have made her resist the offer she was good friends at the time with Cher so might of known of chers trials and business strife when Geffen freed her of Sonny Bono's control..who knows

[sup_fan]

The Wanderer was Donna's first album for Geffen in 1980 and it has a rock-sound to it [[The Wanderer, Cold Love, Stop Me, Nightlife etc), which is what the label wanted from her. By 1980, the popularity of disco and dance music had fallen significantly and rock/new wave was where radio and the industry was heading, so Geffen's comment does not surprise me. She was unfortunately fighting an uphill battle almost the entire time she was on his label.

even prior to The Wanderer, Summer was pushing into a more rock and roll sound. The Bad Girls album is a prime example of this. while still disco, it definitely had r&r influences

[RanRan79]

What might have been huh. Starting with ‘The Boss’, it appeared Diana enjoyed a fair amount of freedom at Motown regarding who was to produce her records and what songs she wanted to sing. The company handed her complete freedom and control when she chose to remix the entire ‘diana’ album which they originally had doubts about. I also think this was proved when she vetoed any further Masser productions for the ‘To Love Again’ set.
Perhaps at the end of the day it more to do with money then anything else.
God only knows what Motown would have made of WDFFIL.

I suspect Motown's "Fools" would've been far more funkier than the karaoke crap that ended up at RCA. I think I might deem "Why Do Fools Fall In Love" to be Diana's worst single ever, even worst than "Pieces Of Ice".

[RanRan79]

her deal was 20+ million for 7 years, to deliver one album per year. RCA to control exploitation for the first 5 releases with no creative input whatsoever in any aspect of the product itself. She did, give in to their begging for a solo Endless Love. Not my fave, but it surely helped it go platinum. In short, their hands were tied, but they did manage one coup: refusal to release Diana LIVE In Central Park. She delivered it, they refused it, and she put together Swept Away. That’s why only 6 albums. Ross was wise enough not to let 1984 go by without product as Ross 83 - was a qualified mega-failure considering the Global Central PArk exposure. What a hot mess that thing was! Folks may dig it now, but it was just awful for the radio at the time.

But that just goes to show that RCA leadership was apparently on a constant 80s coke binge. The first day of Central Park has gone down in music and television history. I'm still confused about what it was with the second day that was a downer. Yet still, Diana's Central Park concert was a huge deal. I think it possible that it could've sold very well, so why veto that?

[reese]

But that just goes to show that RCA leadership was apparently on a constant 80s coke binge. The first day of Central Park has gone down in music and television history. I'm still confused about what it was with the second day that was a downer. Yet still, Diana's Central Park concert was a huge deal. I think it possible that it could've sold very well, so why veto that?

I have to admit that I agree with RCA on this one. There are things that work visually but on audio, not so much. IMO, there were many moments when the concert dragged, in particular the LADY SINGS THE BLUES segment and the segment after the first costume change. There were quite a few moments where Diana wasn't singing or was dancing around instead of singing.

If it were released as an album, I think it would need some heavy editing. Not having heard what Diana presented to RCA, she might not have done much of that. If nothing else, I think Diana should have put out a live version of RIBBON IN THE SKY. To me, that along with ENDLESS LOVE was her best vocal performance of the day.

Or maybe if she had taken highlights from the second day and released it as an album along with some new studio sides. There were rumors that Ashford & Simpson were producing some sides for this.

[khansperac]

Years ago on another forum, I recall a conversation about RCA. I think someone wrote a book, possibly an artist. They mentioned the big deals RCA did at that time and how after the guy responsible for the deals was gone, the higher ups pretty much sabotaged the artists by not promoting them. For some reason I’m thinking it was Kenny Rogers. Can anyone confirm the story, or who the RCA executive was?

[carlo]

even prior to The Wanderer, Summer was pushing into a more rock and roll sound. The Bad Girls album is a prime example of this. while still disco, it definitely had r&r influences

Yes, exactly. "Hot Stuff" is very much both a rock and dance song.

[reese]

Years ago on another forum, I recall a conversation about RCA. I think someone wrote a book, possibly an artist. They mentioned the big deals RCA did at that time and how after the guy responsible for the deals was gone, the higher ups pretty much sabotaged the artists by not promoting them. For some reason I’m thinking it was Kenny Rogers. Can anyone confirm the story, or who the RCA executive was?

I don't remember the name of the RCA executive but I do recall hearing this story. In addition to Diana and Kenny Rogers, I think Barry Manilow was another artist mentioned.

[BobbyC]

I can add this to the discussion: Back in the mid 80's, I was good friends with a pretty well known DJ in the Buffalo area. He knew I was a big Nona Hendryx fan and he gave me a promo copy of one of her records that came out at the time. I complained to him that nobody played her music and I didn't understand why. My DJ friend explained to me that RCA records only really serviced Hall and Oates--it was as if the other artists just didn't exist. He called the company RCA Victim because if you weren't Hall and Oates, you weren't going anywhere, basically.

[BobbyC]

Sorry guys but I have yet to hear a Donna Summer record I'd call rock. I've heard Hot Stuff and the Wanderer, but wouldn't call either rock music. When I think of rock, I think of Bruce Springsteen, Heart, AC/DC and stuff like that. I can't see any of those bands recording Hot Stuff, frankly.

[sup_fan]

But that just goes to show that RCA leadership was apparently on a constant 80s coke binge. The first day of Central Park has gone down in music and television history. I'm still confused about what it was with the second day that was a downer. Yet still, Diana's Central Park concert was a huge deal. I think it possible that it could've sold very well, so why veto that?

listening to the audio of a concert is a very different experience. the Central Park concerts are iconic because we can SEE Diana on stage, menacing clouds all around. her chiffon cape and hair blowing dramatically in the wind. the CP stuff is really more about the visual than the audio. her performances are ok but nothing magical. given the stunning quality of her vocals on the Evening With lp or the HBO special which eventually ended up on VHS, the CP concert isn't her strongest.

[florence]

I don't know why everyone is so down on Last Time I Saw Him.

The single didn't get great airplay which is why it "only"went top 20 and hindered the album and then the hideous Sleepin' finished it off.

But the single was massive in Adult Contemporary finishing #1 for the year in this genre and it was one of Diana's bigger selling singles.

IMO aside from the title track Turn Around, Stone Liberty, I Heard A Love Song, No-Ones Gonna Be A Fool Forever and Behind Closed Doors are all great songs.

The big shock was that the Last Time single did so badly in the UK - it sounds at the very least Top 20 to me.

Maybe Motown was smarting from being forced to rein back on the Touch Me album and didn't promote it - I have nt real knowledge of that period.

We Need You was apparently earmarked as the follow-up to All Of My Life although I'm not sure the lyrics weren't too deep for the mass public.

In retrospect Leave A Little Room probably had the better prospects.

[Levi Stubbs Tears]

Summer never made any rock records anyway

Hot Stuff won the 1979 Grammy for best female rock vocal and Donna received further nominations in this category in 1982 [[Cold Love) & 1983 [[Protection).


I have yet to hear a Donna Summer record I'd call rock. When I think of rock, I think of Bruce Springsteen

So like the Springsteen song Protection which he wrote for Donna? He'd actually written 'Cover Me' [[which later went US top ten) for Donna but was persuaded by his manager to keep it for himself.

[BobbyC]

All I can say is that to me, it's the production, how the song is crafted, that makes it sound like rock vs some other genre--rather than who wrote it. Donna's version of MacArthur Park was 100% disco/dance music, but the original hit version by Richard Harris was almost a ballad. To my ears, Fire by the Pointer Sisters was pop bordering on country, even though Springsteen wrote it. Does that make sense?

[Bluebrock]

Sorry guys but I have yet to hear a Donna Summer record I'd call rock. I've heard Hot Stuff and the Wanderer, but wouldn't call either rock music. When I think of rock, I think of Bruce Springsteen, Heart, AC/DC and stuff like that. I can't see any of those bands recording Hot Stuff, frankly.

What about Cold Love?

[BobbyC]

I don't know Cold Love--I'll give it a listen. I just listened to Protection for the first time--and to me, it sounds like dance music.

[BobbyC]

OMIGOD--just listened to Cold Love for the first time. That hook is almost identical to the guitar hook in Michael Jackson's Black or White!! Shocking!

[TheMotownManiac]

I don't know why everyone is so down on Last Time I Saw Him.

The single didn't get great airplay which is why it "only"went top 20 and hindered the album and then the hideous Sleepin' finished it off.

But the single was massive in Adult Contemporary finishing #1 for the year in this genre and it was one of Diana's bigger selling singles.

IMO aside from the title track Turn Around, Stone Liberty, I Heard A Love Song, No-Ones Gonna Be A Fool Forever and Behind Closed Doors are all great songs.

The big shock was that the Last Time single did so badly in the UK - it sounds at the very least Top 20 to me.

Maybe Motown was smarting from being forced to rein back on the Touch Me album and didn't promote it - I have nt real knowledge of that period.

We Need You was apparently earmarked as the follow-up to All Of My Life although I'm not sure the lyrics weren't too deep for the mass public.

In retrospect Leave A Little Room probably had the better prospects.

i don’t think folks are down on LTISH as a song, but as a single - especially as a follow-up to TMITM. It’s insane. The song may be fun, and appeal to a very niche market, but ultimately, widespread pop audiences were very unlikely to flock to a Dixieland novelTy tune. Album buyers often make their decisions on whether or not they want to buy an album by how a single sounds, and I can’t imagine very many people hearing that song and having them think that I would like a whole album of that. Since there was nothing else really to release on that album except maybe Stone liberty that’s all the public really had to go on, so the album sold to her hard-core fans only. There was always a copy or two in used record store bins not that long after it was released.
I like the song just fine, but it broke my heart that it showed none of the promise and magic of its predecessor. By all accounts, it was a stupid,stupid,stupid move.

as far as we need you versus leave a little room, I would have to flip a coin I certainly think we need you is a wonderful wonderful record and if it caught on to go to number one and get a Grammy nod. It has that kind of quality. Or, it could Miss of course. LALR is a nice easy track, it starts off a little Mamby-pamby and slow, but really has a great build and payoff. I think both would hit, but WNY has that potential to go the next level of respect.

[Glenpwood]

I’ve told the general story of why Diana’s career at RCA petered out in the past. For some reason I couldn’t find it in the archives here so I’ll quote myself from a different website to give some general context to the goings on at the label circa 85-88...

‘“Catching back up on the thread and saw this so I'll fill in the details as I've learned them from Kenny's memoir and a few other industry books. When Bob Buziak replaced Bob Summers as head of RCA around 84-85, he found the label was in a major drought thanks to massive overpressing of titles, poor A&R, rampant overspending by the prior regime, and overpriced contracts. Diana Ross was signed for $20 million for example and would only score 1 platinum & 2 gold sellers out of 6 releases in 7 years. Kenny was guaranteed 4 million per album no matter how well it did. Even the album with Islands In The Stream only did a million. The follow up and the Dolly Xmas projects in 84 did as well and then he went off the cliff until his contract ended in 88. Rogers requested a sitdown with Buziak when his sales and pop chart action went south. There he was told that no matter what product he turned in the label had no real interest in marketing him anymore. Buziak added that if they did, it would make the folks that hired him wonder why they fired Summers. It was rumored this logic also applied to Ross. He was only going to only promote his signings. He also considered Barry Manilow's deal unrecoupable so he cut him from the label after a year and 2 releases to let him run back to Clive Davis. This may also help explain why Hall & Oates and the Pointer Sisters also suddenly stopped having consistent hits and a slew of new signings took off culminating in a mega Soundtrack we'll discuss in a bit that netted RCA $150 million.

[Glenpwood]

I’ll also clarify Geffen Records did struggle to get rock airplay for The Wanderer. In general, that format wasn’t looking to add Donna or the Pointer Sisters similarly themed work to their playlists in 80. There was mild accusations of racism attached as no one batted an eye lash at playing white females like Chrissie Hynde or Pat Benatar’s current efforts. Billboard covered this plight back then. It also didn’t help Geffen as a label suddenly stopped promoting Donna’s album the moment they had to figure out how to get tons of copies of their second release, John Lennon & Yoko Ono’s “Double Fantasy” pressed to meet the sudden demand after his murder. You can see Donna’s album crash 20 some places the next week if you pull the chart. It gave the whole project a whiff of failure that even a great single like Cold Love couldn’t overcome.

[PeaceNHarmony]

I’ll also clarify Geffen Records did struggle to get rock airplay for The Wanderer. In general, that format wasn’t looking to add Donna or the Pointer Sisters similarly themed work to their playlists in 80. There was mild accusations of racism attached as no one batted an eye lash at playing white females like Chrissie Hynde or Pat Benatar’s current efforts. Billboard covered this plight back then. It also didn’t help Geffen as a label suddenly stopped promoting Donna’s album the moment they had to figure out how to get tons of copies of their second release, John Lennon & Yoko Ono’s “Double Fantasy” pressed to meet the sudden demand after his murder. You can see Donna’s album crash 20 some places the next week if you pull the chart. It gave the whole project a whiff of failure that even a great single like Cold Love couldn’t overcome.I haven't read all of each-and-every post, but an extra irony as you, Glenpwood, may remember, is that Lennon chatted up 'Cold Love'.

[nomis]

one plus for the RCA years rarely mentioned was Diana's early awareness of the music video a fair amount are glossy expensive and hold up today - "Mirror Mirror" is a tour de force with Diana giving her all Eaten Alive Missing You Chain Reaction All Of You and a few aimed very much at the Gay dollar - Muscles,Swept Away..other artists such as Dionne Gladys or Striesand and their labels just didnt step up to new medium Chain Reaction reached no.1 in the UK largely due to the videos appeal..Geffen refused Chera budget for 1987s' " I Found Someone" so she paid for the video herself..Geffen for Ross would have been a mistake

[Bluebrock]

OMIGOD--just listened to Cold Love for the first time. That hook is almost identical to the guitar hook in Michael Jackson's Black or White!! Shocking!
And it came out several years prior to Black or White.

[Ollie9]

i don’t think folks are down on LTISH as a song, but as a single - especially as a follow-up to TMITM. It’s insane. The song may be fun, and appeal to a very niche market, but ultimately, widespread pop audiences were very unlikely to flock to a Dixieland novelTy tune. Album buyers often make their decisions on whether or not they want to buy an album by how a single sounds, and I can’t imagine very many people hearing that song and having them think that I would like a whole album of that. Since there was nothing else really to release on that album except maybe Stone liberty that’s all the public really had to go on, so the album sold to her hard-core fans only. There was always a copy or two in used record store bins not that long after it was released.
I like the song just fine, but it broke my heart that it showed none of the promise and magic of its predecessor. By all accounts, it was a stupid,stupid,stupid move.

as far as we need you versus leave a little room, I would have to flip a coin I certainly think we need you is a wonderful wonderful record and if it caught on to go to number one and get a Grammy nod. It has that kind of quality. Or, it could Miss of course. LALR is a nice easy track, it starts off a little Mamby-pamby and slow, but really has a great build and payoff. I think both would hit, but WNY has that potential to go the next level of respect.

Excellent analysis except , l would have released “Won’t Last A Day” as the second single in the USA and third in the UK.

[Ollie9]

I’ve told the general story of why Diana’s career at RCA petered out in the past. For some reason I couldn’t find it in the archives here so I’ll quote myself from a different website to give some general context to the goings on at the label circa 85-88...

‘“Catching back up on the thread and saw this so I'll fill in the details as I've learned them from Kenny's memoir and a few other industry books. When Bob Buziak replaced Bob Summers as head of RCA around 84-85, he found the label was in a major drought thanks to massive overpressing of titles, poor A&R, rampant overspending by the prior regime, and overpriced contracts. Diana Ross was signed for $20 million for example and would only score 1 platinum & 2 gold sellers out of 6 releases in 7 years. Kenny was guaranteed 4 million per album no matter how well it did. Even the album with Islands In The Stream only did a million. The follow up and the Dolly Xmas projects in 84 did as well and then he went off the cliff until his contract ended in 88. Rogers requested a sitdown with Buziak when his sales and pop chart action went south. There he was told that no matter what product he turned in the label had no real interest in marketing him anymore. Buziak added that if they did, it would make the folks that hired him wonder why they fired Summers. It was rumored this logic also applied to Ross. He was only going to only promote his signings. He also considered Barry Manilow's deal unrecoupable so he cut him from the label after a year and 2 releases to let him run back to Clive Davis. This may also help explain why Hall & Oates and the Pointer Sisters also suddenly stopped having consistent hits and a slew of new signings took off culminating in a mega Soundtrack we'll discuss in a bit that netted RCA $150 million.

Interesting stuff Glenpwood.

[RanRan79]

i don’t think folks are down on LTISH as a song, but as a single - especially as a follow-up to TMITM. It’s insane. The song may be fun, and appeal to a very niche market, but ultimately, widespread pop audiences were very unlikely to flock to a Dixieland novelTy tune. Album buyers often make their decisions on whether or not they want to buy an album by how a single sounds, and I can’t imagine very many people hearing that song and having them think that I would like a whole album of that. Since there was nothing else really to release on that album except maybe Stone liberty that’s all the public really had to go on, so the album sold to her hard-core fans only. There was always a copy or two in used record store bins not that long after it was released.
I like the song just fine, but it broke my heart that it showed none of the promise and magic of its predecessor. By all accounts, it was a stupid,stupid,stupid move.

as far as we need you versus leave a little room, I would have to flip a coin I certainly think we need you is a wonderful wonderful record and if it caught on to go to number one and get a Grammy nod. It has that kind of quality. Or, it could Miss of course. LALR is a nice easy track, it starts off a little Mamby-pamby and slow, but really has a great build and payoff. I think both would hit, but WNY has that potential to go the next level of respect.

I'm definitely not hearing what some of the rest of you are hearing in terms of additional singles on TMITM. To my ears the album's success is in the cohesiveness of the tracks; a perfect example of the term "long playing record". I do think that either "All Of My Life" or "I Won't Last A Day" were the most likely to have a chance as follow up hits. But "We Need You"? "Leave A Little Room"? I have almost zero faith in either of these hitting as singles. Great songs within the album, but they lack the ear catching sound of the title cut. Even "I Won't Last" would probably need a different mix. On the other hand, your earlier suggestion about "Brown Baby" is intriguing. It's my favorite cut on the album and one of my all time favorite Diana vocals ever. But I'm not convinced it was a surefire hit either.

I'm unbothered by the release of "Last Time I Saw Him" as a single. It's novelty for sure, but I think it works for Diana. And had she promoted it on television, it may have gone further than it did. The problem is that the song should've been a single only cut. Motown put together an album to capitalize off of the song and ended up with a non-cohesive group of cuts that was highly disappointing considering how fantastic TMITM had been. They could've saved it for the eventual Greatest Hits release.

LTISH was just a boring album. To me the only cuts that have any sparkle are the Guadio cuts. I think if Gordy had allowed Bob to tackle the TMITM followup album, we would've ended up with a better product. Bring Ashford and Simpson back in. Deke too. Masser mostly makes great singles. I think a Masser album would bore me to tears.

[RanRan79]

one plus for the RCA years rarely mentioned was Diana's early awareness of the music video a fair amount are glossy expensive and hold up today - "Mirror Mirror" is a tour de force with Diana giving her all Eaten Alive Missing You Chain Reaction All Of You and a few aimed very much at the Gay dollar - Muscles,Swept Away..other artists such as Dionne Gladys or Striesand and their labels just didnt step up to new medium Chain Reaction reached no.1 in the UK largely due to the videos appeal..Geffen refused Chera budget for 1987s' " I Found Someone" so she paid for the video herself..Geffen for Ross would have been a mistake

Good point about the videos. I remember loving the "Swept Away" and "Eaten Alive" videos as a kid.

[Ollie9]

A
Good point about the videos. I remember loving the "Swept Away" and "Eaten Alive" videos as a kid.

They stand up well even today. Regarding “Eaten Alive”, i just bought a posh new music system where the clarity is incredible. Thirty five years after its original release and i was taken aback at just how much of MJ voice is featured on the song lol. Bits I thought we’re Diana prove to me Michael. She is almost a guest on her own record. :eek:

[Bluebrock]

A

They stand up well even today. Regarding “Eaten Alive”, i just bought a posh new music system where the clarity is incredible. Thirty five years after its original release and i was taken aback at just how much of MJ voice is featured on the song lol. Bits I thought we’re Diana prove to me Michael. She is almost a guest on her own record. :eek:

Good to know Ollie. I am thinking of updating my outdated system. You will have to let me know which particular system you decided upon, and i may even follow suit if the results are so impressive.

[Ollie9]

Good to know Ollie. I am thinking of updating my outdated system. You will have to let me know which particular system you decided upon, and i may even follow suit if the results are so impressive.

Its a Naim Uniti Star All In One Audio Player. :)

[sup_fan]

I'm definitely not hearing what some of the rest of you are hearing in terms of additional singles on TMITM. To my ears the album's success is in the cohesiveness of the tracks; a perfect example of the term "long playing record". I do think that either "All Of My Life" or "I Won't Last A Day" were the most likely to have a chance as follow up hits. But "We Need You"? "Leave A Little Room"? I have almost zero faith in either of these hitting as singles. Great songs within the album, but they lack the ear catching sound of the title cut. Even "I Won't Last" would probably need a different mix. On the other hand, your earlier suggestion about "Brown Baby" is intriguing. It's my favorite cut on the album and one of my all time favorite Diana vocals ever. But I'm not convinced it was a surefire hit either.

I'm unbothered by the release of "Last Time I Saw Him" as a single. It's novelty for sure, but I think it works for Diana. And had she promoted it on television, it may have gone further than it did. The problem is that the song should've been a single only cut. Motown put together an album to capitalize off of the song and ended up with a non-cohesive group of cuts that was highly disappointing considering how fantastic TMITM had been. They could've saved it for the eventual Greatest Hits release.

LTISH was just a boring album. To me the only cuts that have any sparkle are the Guadio cuts. I think if Gordy had allowed Bob to tackle the TMITM followup album, we would've ended up with a better product. Bring Ashford and Simpson back in. Deke too. Masser mostly makes great singles. I think a Masser album would bore me to tears.

i definitely think you have a point out the Touch me album. it's a wonderful piece in it's entirety. We Need You is a stunning song but i think as a stand-alone single it's a no. the lyric are too down. All of My Life probably was the most pop-radio friendly.

I do agree that Last Time is an odd follow up to Touch Me. while i like the song a lot, it isn't the magic of TMITM.

as we've all discussed with the sup/tops duets, the M/D duets also played havoc with the released. TMITM was released as a single on 5/3/73 but didn't peak on the charts until 12 weeks later!! that's an incredibly long time to reach your peak chart position. after reaching #1 [[for 1 week) it remained in the Top 10 for a further 5 weeks.

Motown then released You're a Special Part of Me in Sept 73 and it started it's chart run in early Oct. And in Oct it released the duets album. It charted pretty quickly and was moving up the chart. but then...

Motown released both the single and album for LTISH in Dec. this clearly cut into the sales and momentum for the duets album.

frankly while i think the duet album never really lives up to what could have happened with this pairing, it isn't a bad album. it does have some lush and lovely songs on it and, sonically at least, it follows the TMITM album perfectly. And frankly it also is a fine follow up to Marvin's Let GEt it On.

my speculation is that Diana was hot here in 73 and there was no way Motown wasn't going to have a new stand-alone Diana Ross album ready for Christmas. So they quickly threw together the LTISM package. while the front cover art is fun they clearly lacked any degree of creativity with the back cover graphics. IMO this was about money, not artistic statement

[sup_fan]

I’ve told the general story of why Diana’s career at RCA petered out in the past. For some reason I couldn’t find it in the archives here so I’ll quote myself from a different website to give some general context to the goings on at the label circa 85-88...

‘“Catching back up on the thread and saw this so I'll fill in the details as I've learned them from Kenny's memoir and a few other industry books. When Bob Buziak replaced Bob Summers as head of RCA around 84-85, he found the label was in a major drought thanks to massive overpressing of titles, poor A&R, rampant overspending by the prior regime, and overpriced contracts. Diana Ross was signed for $20 million for example and would only score 1 platinum & 2 gold sellers out of 6 releases in 7 years. Kenny was guaranteed 4 million per album no matter how well it did. Even the album with Islands In The Stream only did a million. The follow up and the Dolly Xmas projects in 84 did as well and then he went off the cliff until his contract ended in 88. Rogers requested a sitdown with Buziak when his sales and pop chart action went south. There he was told that no matter what product he turned in the label had no real interest in marketing him anymore. Buziak added that if they did, it would make the folks that hired him wonder why they fired Summers. It was rumored this logic also applied to Ross. He was only going to only promote his signings. He also considered Barry Manilow's deal unrecoupable so he cut him from the label after a year and 2 releases to let him run back to Clive Davis. This may also help explain why Hall & Oates and the Pointer Sisters also suddenly stopped having consistent hits and a slew of new signings took off culminating in a mega Soundtrack we'll discuss in a bit that netted RCA $150 million.

Glen - thank you so much for sharing this!! that definitely does seem to be a logical explanation of things. Buziak needed to prove himself. And lets face it - Diana's music during this time wasn't the level of quality she really needed anyway. some sold well enough but none were masterpieces. plus the public was ready for new sounds and artists.

[Bluebrock]

Its a Naim Uniti Star All In One Audio Player. :)

Thank you for that. I shall look into it.

[Ollie9]

For me, even weak albums such as LTISH are infinitely better then the majority of her recordings for RCA. They were of a certain quality.
Had Motown continued to plunder TMITM for hit singles i think it would generally be a better known album today. It certainly contains some of Dianas best vocal performances ever. I personally love the sensual sophistication of the album.

[Bluebrock]

i definitely think you have a point out the Touch me album. it's a wonderful piece in it's entirety. We Need You is a stunning song but i think as a stand-alone single it's a no. the lyric are too down. All of My Life probably was the most pop-radio friendly.

I do agree that Last Time is an odd follow up to Touch Me. while i like the song a lot, it isn't the magic of TMITM.

as we've all discussed with the sup/tops duets, the M/D duets also played havoc with the released. TMITM was released as a single on 5/3/73 but didn't peak on the charts until 12 weeks later!! that's an incredibly long time to reach your peak chart position. after reaching #1 [[for 1 week) it remained in the Top 10 for a further 5 weeks.

Motown then released You're a Special Part of Me in Sept 73 and it started it's chart run in early Oct. And in Oct it released the duets album. It charted pretty quickly and was moving up the chart. but then...

Motown released both the single and album for LTISH in Dec. this clearly cut into the sales and momentum for the duets album.

frankly while i think the duet album never really lives up to what could have happened with this pairing, it isn't a bad album. it does have some lush and lovely songs on it and, sonically at least, it follows the TMITM album perfectly. And frankly it also is a fine follow up to Marvin's Let GEt it On.

my speculation is that Diana was hot here in 73 and there was no way Motown wasn't going to have a new stand-alone Diana Ross album ready for Christmas. So they quickly threw together the LTISM package. while the front cover art is fun they clearly lacked any degree of creativity with the back cover graphics. IMO this was about money, not artistic statement
I would tend to agree. LTISH was a blatant attempt to cash in on the lucrative Christmas market. Diana herself was bemused that Motown kind of pushed the TMITM album aside when it was a proud artistic moment for her, but she was immersed in family matters at this time and had already agreed an extended hiatus to spend time with her growing family, and of course she was interested in continuing her fledgling movie career. Marvin was also said to be unhappy about the timing of the duets album - an album that he was forced into doing against his will. Berry's decision making around this time was questionable to say the very least.

[sup_fan]

well i think it's questionable from an ARTISTIC standpoint. but this was a monetary decision [[most likely). even if they had released a second single from the TMITM set, the album had been out since June and peaked on the charts in Sept. sure they could have scraped up a few more sales of the album during the holidays. it would still have been in release either way so it still had sales.

But to market a BRAND NEW DIANA ROSS ALBUM for the holidays would generate much, much, much more sales than trying to squeeze a bit more juice out of TMITM.

Motown was a business, first and foremost.

[George Solomon]

There is an unreleased remixed single edit of Brown Baby from 1973. It's 3:26. I thought we used it on Touch Me Expanded but just checked and discovered we didn't. It would be a nice addition to a compilation.

[sansradio]

When I think of rock, I think of Bruce Springsteen, Heart, AC/DC and stuff like that

It's very telling that your list doesn't include Tina Turner or Nona Hendryx [[not to mention Jimi Hendrix, Chuck Berry, or Little Richard), but, by all means, let's blather on about how Black women in the music industry have experienced no special discrimination. Give me a break.

[Bluebrock]

well i think it's questionable from an ARTISTIC standpoint. but this was a monetary decision [[most likely). even if they had released a second single from the TMITM set, the album had been out since June and peaked on the charts in Sept. sure they could have scraped up a few more sales of the album during the holidays. it would still have been in release either way so it still had sales.

But to market a BRAND NEW DIANA ROSS ALBUM for the holidays would generate much, much, much more sales than trying to squeeze a bit more juice out of TMITM.

Motown was a business, first and foremost.

But LTISH hardly set the album charts alive. They could have squeezed another single or two from TMITM, and then concentrated on the duets album, and then leave the LTISH album until the following fall. There were no other studio albums from Diana until the Black album. I'm sure the fans would have responded better to LTISH having been deprived of new material for a while.
However we will never know for sure will we?

[BobbyC]

Sansradio I have no idea what you are whining about. I just mentioned those three bands off the top of my head, but in your mind I was dismissing Tina Turner and Nona Hendryx. That's just insane. Nona's first solo album was definitely rock. The other albums were funk/R&B as Nona herself has said. Tina Turner is rock live, but on record, she is pop. The Pointer Sisters' Priority was rock. Mother's finest sometimes did rock as well as pop/funk. Have I left anyone out, god forbid? You clearly have some sort of victim mentality that I find ridiculous.

[sup_fan]

But LTISH hardly set the album charts alive. They could have squeezed another single or two from TMITM, and then concentrated on the duets album, and then leave the LTISH album until the following fall. There were no other studio albums from Diana until the Black album. I'm sure the fans would have responded better to LTISH having been deprived of new material for a while.
However we will never know for sure will we?

while i completely agree with your timeline, i think the idea was 'hey - diana is super hot. at the beginning of 73 we had the Academy Awards, then in spring she released TMITM and both album and single did great. here in the fall she's back on the charts with the duets" so strike while the iron is hot. so they quickly tossed out the LTISH album and single. Agree that it didn't set the charts afire but it was something in the stores.

the album was released prior to the single by almost a month. that probably didn't help things - to not have a lead single helping push the album.

[LoveSupreme]

to bring us back to the original question, what about the other labels then? Sounds like Clive and Arista were never even in the mix. So what about Geffen or Broadwalk or Polydor?

As far as Geffen is concerned that would have been interesting but back in 1981 David Geffen was the main producer of the Broadway musical, "Dreamgirls" and he released the cast album so I don't think Diana would have accepted any offers from him or his label.

[PeaceNHarmony]

while i completely agree with your timeline, i think the idea was 'hey - diana is super hot. at the beginning of 73 we had the Academy Awards, then in spring she released TMITM and both album and single did great. here in the fall she's back on the charts with the duets" so strike while the iron is hot. so they quickly tossed out the LTISH album and single. Agree that it didn't set the charts afire but it was something in the stores.

the album was released prior to the single by almost a month. that probably didn't help things - to not have a lead single helping push the album.Reasonable deduction. I didn't remember the single following the lp release; I do remember the single being 'enough' of a hit on NYC top 40 radio and a popular sing-along song, at lease in my social circles!

[Ollie9]

What with the excellent, but totally non commercial “Sleepin” as the second single and having to compete with Diana & Marvin tracks, the LTISH album was up against it from the off.
Had it been released a year later it might have done rather well.