Did they ever test record Cindy for background?

[TYK1986]

I know this sound funny but did they ever record Cindy just to get an idea what she would sound like on a song? I was listening to Then from the Reflections album and Heaven must have sent you. I can't seems to hear Mary in the mix and wondered if these song were recorded to test Cindy's voice as background for Diana. When Cindy and Mary do background or blend together, I think, Mary is normally the more prominent one so that's why I wonder about this.

[sup_fan]

the story goes that Cindy met with D, M, Berry and a couple others to audition and talk. She sang You Keep Me Hangin' On.

I think between all of this and her years of singing with the Bluebelles [[a group they had performed with and watched) was sufficient. This was all happening at a breakneck pace

the infamous New Orleans duet performance was on April 23, 1967. the hollywood bowl show was April 29. I don't know how much of the search occurred earlier. Surely they had initially met with Cindy prior. But the meeting at Berry's house and decision to use Cindy at Hollywood Bowl happened swiftly after NOLA. I don't know of any performance dates in between NOLA and Hollywood.

[TYK1986]

I meant more immediately after she officially joined in July. Unlike the Vandellas and Marvelettes, who were mostly replaced by the Andantes or who ever was available, the Supremes seemed to still sing their own background, although we know not on all songs. Didn't Jean record a few demo's just to get a feel of how she would sound.

[blackguy69]

Actually the vandellas were still recording going into 68 until I can’t Dance. The marvelettes were replaced starting in 66. It seems that once HDH left is when Mary and Cindy started to record less.

I meant more immediately after she officially joined in July. Unlike the Vandellas and Marvelettes, who were mostly replaced by the Andantes or who ever was available, the Supremes seemed to still sing their own background, although we know not on all songs. Didn't Jean record a few demo's just to get a feel of how she would sound.

[WaitingWatchingLookingForAChance]

Actually the vandellas were still recording going into 68 until I can’t Dance. The marvelettes were replaced starting in 66. It seems that once HDH left is when Mary and Cindy started to record less.

you guys need to listen more closely to those albums. If anything, at least with the Marvelettes, there were producers who were still opting to use a blend of the Andantes and the Marvelettes on recordings. Not always, but it seems if anything, The Marvelettes were featured more times on recordings than the Vandellas or Supremes. Everyone has gotten used to the "they couldn't harmonize so they were left off the records" mentality when it comes to The Marvelettes that few realize they were actually there more that people realize. By contrast, after 66, it seems the Vandellas were featured less on albums with each passing year and ditto for the Supremes.

[TYK1986]

I can clearly hear the Marvelettes on the Pink Album but after that I struggle with the exception of a few songs. Besides that I do like the Marvelettes on the background. It always gives that more down to earth and group sound. Same with the Vandellas after Watch Out. Never really been able to pick out Lois on any song. The background vocals on Honey Chile for example are way too soft. Cindy seems to have recorded background mostly during late '67 and early '68 during the timeframe of the recording for songs for Reflections. But does anyone hear Mary on the Heaven Must have sent you and Then? You can hear both Cindy and Mary at the end of Stay in my lonely arms when the Andantes are not in the mix anymore very clearly. Because I can't hear Mary on the two songs mentioned I was wondering if they were like test for Cindy on background. I would assume that if Cindy was singing background that Mary would be there too.

[blackguy69]

I can hear Mary on both songs you mentioned. On Honey Chile I can hear Roz. As far as for the Marvelettes, I do know they blend both the Andantes and the Marvelettes vocals together.
I can clearly hear the Marvelettes on the Pink Album but after that I struggle with the exception of a few songs. Besides that I do like the Marvelettes on the background. It always gives that more down to earth and group sound. Same with the Vandellas after Watch Out. Never really been able to pick out Lois on any song. The background vocals on Honey Chile for example are way too soft. Cindy seems to have recorded background mostly during late '67 and early '68 during the timeframe of the recording for songs for Reflections. But does anyone hear Mary on the Heaven Must have sent you and Then? You can hear both Cindy and Mary at the end of Stay in my lonely arms when the Andantes are not in the mix anymore very clearly. Because I can't hear Mary on the two songs mentioned I was wondering if they were like test for Cindy on background. I would assume that if Cindy was singing background that Mary would be there too.

[sup_fan]

I meant more immediately after she officially joined in July. Unlike the Vandellas and Marvelettes, who were mostly replaced by the Andantes or who ever was available, the Supremes seemed to still sing their own background, although we know not on all songs. Didn't Jean record a few demo's just to get a feel of how she would sound.

i think the difference is that background singing is more "standard" from song to song, group to group. of course there are some unique differences but the real key is about excellent harmonizing and blend.

you bring up Jean and i don't think that's an apples to apples comparison. by definition, the lead is going to have very different styles and tones. Gladys Horton, Diana Ross, Gladys Knight and Jean Terrell might all approach a song very differently. but frankly they could have all utilized the same backing tracks

now this isn't to downplay or minimize the contributions of the backing vocals. If you can't harmonize well, it's gonna be awful. and BG singers have the additional task of having to carry the harmony notes versus the melody. that too makes it more complex.

So i think they probably didn't "test" Cindy like the did with Jean because it's two totally different types of singing. I'm sure they at least tried to figure out her range and not arrange vocals that were too high.

[jim aka jtigre99]

I believe I read in Mary's book that when she was rehearsing Cindy that she had to make adjustments in her singing to accommodate the proper background blend. She stated that Florence was a louder first soprano but that Cindy was a much softer, lower second soprano. I believe since Cindy was was lower that Mary not only had to change her range but also how loudly she sang to give the backgrounds strength. Mary also wrote that Cindy was a fast study and they were pleased with her progress. Mary had to make a number of adjustments depending on who her partners were-Flo, Cindy, Lynda, Scherrie and Susaye. I think by this time BG had planned to focus on Diana and if Cindy was good at concerts and the routines he was fine with that and would just have the in house Andantes used on recordings since he was focusing on making Diana the sound and not the Supremes. It was a pleasure by 1975 when Scherrie joined Mary and Cindy and they were the ones used, by this time Mary and Cindy had perfected their blend and sounded wonderful together along with Scherrie who provided a great blend live and on recordings as well.

[TYK1986]

Sup-fan didn't mean to compare Jean and Cindy lol. I mean I assume that any company wouldn't just put any person on a record. Even background has to sound right for a song to work. So assume they did some test recordings for when they would use Mary and Cindy. I will have to listen to the songs I mentioned with other headphones and see if I can hear Mary in the mix. Another 2 songs where I can clearly hear both Mary and Cindy are Will this be the day and I'll set you free.

[sup_fan]

Sup-fan didn't mean to compare Jean and Cindy lol. I mean I assume that any company wouldn't just put any person on a record. Even background has to sound right for a song to work. So assume they did some test recordings for when they would use Mary and Cindy. I will have to listen to the songs I mentioned with other headphones and see if I can hear Mary in the mix. Another 2 songs where I can clearly hear both Mary and Cindy are Will this be the day and I'll set you free.

lol oh i know. i just wonder if you're giving motown more credit. they pretty clearly had identified that BG vocals were just instrumentation. look at how easily and freely they shifted vocalists around. motown wasn't looking to create a DRATS sound. they needed vocal augmentation to create backing tracks for Diana Ross. I'd guess that since they knew Cindy could sing, they knew she was a soprano - fine. get her in the studio

I do see your point though and maybe with later groupings that should have been more of a consideration. IMO the JML lineup suffered from 2 very distinct voices [[J and L) and the blend of the 3 didn't work as well. Also when Susaye joined, she had such a unique voice and vocal abilities that the Hollands experimented with all sorts of ways to embellish the tracks with her.

but no, i don't think in 67 they were approaching things in that manner

[SatansBlues]

IMO looks were more important than "sound". Sure all the background singers had to be able to hold a note, or harmonize or blend but in my observation looks -skin complexion - were more important. Look at who Annette Sterling/Beard of the Martha & the Vandellas was replace with: Betty Kelly. Both ladies are stunningly beautiful and both have near identical skin complexion. When Wanda Rogers went out on maternity leave early on who did Motown get to replace her on tour? Florence Ballard. Both ladies are of a fairer/lighter skin complexion. When Gladys Horton was replace in '67, who did they find to replace her? Ann Bogan, both of a similar skin complexion. When Betty Kelly left, also in '67, who did they find to replace her? Lois Reeves... you should get the point by now..
I remember years ago reading that one of the reasons that Cindy was picked to replace Florence was because of their resemblance. I, personally, don't think Florence and Cindy look anything alike, aside from having a lighter skin complexion, but I don't think they're similar at all.

[sup_fan]

i think the Flo resemblance was one issue and then the fact that Cindy was just so damn nice. after all of the problems, that must have been a breath of fresh air. plus cindy really seemed to click with mary - they're possibly among the most glamorous pairings of Supreme backgrounds.

[khansperac]

i think the Flo resemblance was one issue and then the fact that Cindy was just so damn nice.

Not putting Cindy down at all, but was she really that nice or innocent? I know it may be almost criminal to ask this. At some point neither Flo, Diana, Patti, or Nona thought she was that nice.

[SatansBlues]

Not putting Cindy down at all, but was she really that nice or innocent? I know it may be almost criminal to ask this. At some point neither Flo, Diana, Patti, or Nona thought she was that nice.
What exactly did Cindy do to make anyone think that she wasn't nice? Was it because she took advantage of a once in a life time opportunity to join one of the hottest and most popular groups at the time? Most people could hardly find fault with that.

[JohnnyB]

What exactly did Cindy do to make anyone think that she wasn't nice? Was it because she took advantage of a once in a life time opportunity to join one of the hottest and most popular groups at the time? Most people could hardly find fault with that.

Leaving Patti Labelle and The Bluebelles to join the Supremes most-likely wasn’t the reason her former partners were angered. I believe she negotiated, signed and began rehearsals without telling her current group partners. She jumped ship...

[SatansBlues]

Leaving Patti Labelle and The Bluebelles to join the Supremes most-likely wasn’t the reason her former partners were angered. I believe she negotiated, signed and began rehearsals without telling her current group partners. She jumped ship...
I'm sure Cindy would have been under strict instructions from Motown to not say a word to anyone until things were finalized. Didn't Motown have to negotiate a deal with Atlantic Records to get Cindy out of her contract? How much did Motown have to pay Atlantic Records? And who was that cost charged to; Motown, the Supremes or Cindy herself? I'm sure Motown instructed Cindy not to break the news to the other Bluebelles because it wasn't known publicly that Florence was on her way out of the Supremes. And I'm sure Atlantic would have double the cost of breaking her contract.

[PeaceNHarmony]

I'm sure Cindy would have been under strict instructions from Motown to not say a word to anyone until things were finalized. Didn't Motown have to negotiate a deal with Atlantic Records to get Cindy out of her contract? How much did Motown have to pay Atlantic Records? And who was that cost charged to; Motown, the Supremes or Cindy herself? I'm sure Motown instructed Cindy not to break the news to the other Bluebelles because it wasn't known publicly that Florence was on her way out of the Supremes. And I'm sure Atlantic would have double the cost of breaking her contract.Absent of verifiable facts I think your presentation makes lots of sense, knowing what we do about Motown, competitiveness in the music business, and business practices in general.

[TYK1986]

Makes a lot of sense SatansBlues. I would have done the same joining the biggest girl group ever if I could hold a note lol. I know some people might say be loyal to your group, and i can understand that, but what input did Cindy have in the Bluebelles? She didn't have much to say in the Supremes either but at least she was getting more income, better dresses [[so important lol), a lot more travelling and if you like that sort of thing go for it. Didn't one of the Bluebelles mention that Cindy sounded bland. So why make a fuzz of her leaving.

[blackguy69]

Sarah said she had a monotone voice
Makes a lot of sense SatansBlues. I would have done the same joining the biggest girl group ever if I could hold a note lol. I know some people might say be loyal to your group, and i can understand that, but what input did Cindy have in the Bluebelles? She didn't have much to say in the Supremes either but at least she was getting more income, better dresses [[so important lol), a lot more travelling and if you like that sort of thing go for it. Didn't one of the Bluebelles mention that Cindy sounded bland. So why make a fuzz of her leaving.

[TYK1986]

Thanks Blackguy69. My brains don't always wanna work along 100% ;).

[sup_fan]

it was publicly stated [[although not super loudly) that Cindy Birdsong appeared with the Supremes on stage at the Hollywood Bowl. that was in April 67. my understanding is that she had had a few discussions with them and just a few days of rehearsal before going on stage. it wasn't a long simmering process

once she appeared with them, it's Patti's and the rest of the group's problem if they were "surprised." if their label or management was that blind or stupid to have totally missed the reports of Cindy being on stage then shame on Patti, Nona and Sarah for employing stupid managers. someone, somewhere, at sometime would have released a singer signed to Atlantic and part of the Bluebelles had appeared onstage with another group.

yes - they had every right to be shocked in April

no - they had no right to be shocked in July

[sup_fan]

Not putting Cindy down at all, but was she really that nice or innocent? I know it may be almost criminal to ask this. At some point neither Flo, Diana, Patti, or Nona thought she was that nice.

no one is saying she was infallible. i think there's certainly some issues with how she handled the departure from the Bluebelles [[at least what i've learned and understood about it).

Flo's dislike for Cindy would have been tied to the fact that cindy replaced her. not because of any specific action Cindy did herself. Flo was bitter about the whole situation.

Diana's conflicts with Cindy would have arisen out of the strains and heavy stress they were all under but especially what Diana was under. all 3 girls struggled with the problems and pressures. there's a wonderful story though in Randy's book about Diana visiting MCJ after one of their shows and talking in the dressing room with them. and how the 3 of them had grown and matured and seemed closer then [[in 71) than in 69. that shows to me that the internal problems within the DRATS weren't necessarily or always personal. it was just a very tough situation

[khansperac]

Flo's dislike for Cindy would have been tied to the fact that cindy replaced her. not because of any specific action Cindy did herself. Flo was bitter about the whole situation.



Wasn’t it said that Cindy would sit out in the audience, right in Flo’s face and study her moves?

[reese]

it was publicly stated [[although not super loudly) that Cindy Birdsong appeared with the Supremes on stage at the Hollywood Bowl. that was in April 67. my understanding is that she had had a few discussions with them and just a few days of rehearsal before going on stage. it wasn't a long simmering process

once she appeared with them, it's Patti's and the rest of the group's problem if they were "surprised." if their label or management was that blind or stupid to have totally missed the reports of Cindy being on stage then shame on Patti, Nona and Sarah for employing stupid managers. someone, somewhere, at sometime would have released a singer signed to Atlantic and part of the Bluebelles had appeared onstage with another group.

yes - they had every right to be shocked in April

no - they had no right to be shocked in July

When Patti tells the story of Cindy leaving the Bluebelles, I think she gets the timeline wrong. Or some of us assume that she's talking about July because that was when Flo was fired at the Flamingo.

In her book, Patti mentions that Cindy called saying that she was going to miss a show but that she wasn't sick and not to worry. She then said the next call came from Motown, saying Cindy was joining the Supremes.

I don't think this happened in July. More than likely, it was April. Cindy missed that Bluebelles' show because she was in Detroit, meeting with the group before appearing at the Bowl. The Bowl show was reported in the press so it is unlikely that the Bluebelles' didn't hear about it. Not to mention that Cindy was then showing up at dates watching Flo from the audience. She couldn't have done that while still traveling with the Bluebelles, who had their own gigs.

[TYK1986]

Cindy or not but someone had to do it eventually. The music industry is a hard environment and the hours are often hours most of us probably wouldn't want to do. The Supremes, Florence in this case, was not the only one who was replaced. Betty of the Vandellas also missed shows, says on Wikipedia so if anyone knows if this is true please let me know, and was replaced by Lois. David of the Temptations for other reasons I think, never been a huge fan of the Temps so don't know what happened etc. But I think Cindy did study the routines and they had the extra set of dresses but I'm not sure where I read that. Probably on the forum here :rolleyes:. As for Florence disliking Cindy?? Not sure about that. I've seen photo's of them together and I think if she really didn't like Cindy she wouldn't even bother to pose with her. I don't think Florence is a person who would really dislike people but is more disappointed in them. Even in her 1975 interview she mentioned that her and Diana are like sisters and that friction, like with real brothers and sisters, happens.

[floyjoy678]

I've never heard about Betty missing shows with the Vandellas. I do know her firing was very abrupt and Lois had to step in rather quickly. In fact it was just a few weeks after Flo was fired. I wonder if Martha figured the Supremes could do it, so could she.

[TYK1986]

Yes I've only read about it on Wikipedia [[terrible source for many things) and that they had altercations on stage. I was thinking about buying Martha's book but bought a Beach Boys book instead :confused:. I think Martha's book wasn't in my price range on Amazon. I do hear some sort of altercation on their live album and Martha say something like "you call that singing?" and then the sound muffles a bit.

[sup_fan]

according to Martha's book Betty was starting to date a guy in the band [[i think) and becoming friends with Winnie Brown - flo's cousin. animosity was growing between M and B and it got to the point where Betty would make snips on stage or do things that threw martha off.

in regards to Rosalind, martha doesn't say as much. just that things soured and was asked to leave

keep in mind Martha was hardly a stable figure during this time. lots of issues with drugs, guy trouble, etc.

I've not heard stories from others so don't know about different POVs

[TYK1986]

Yes Martha and the Vandellas always confuses me as to when some of the members left. I read from different sources that Rosalind left in '68 and other '69. Then some articles [[MTV for example) that she choose to leave and others that she was asked to leave.

[floyjoy678]

Yes Martha and the Vandellas always confuses me as to when some of the members left. I read from different sources that Rosalind left in '68 and other '69. Then some articles [[MTV for example) that she choose to leave and others that she was asked to leave.

Yeah I had always thought Rosalind left in the spring of '69 but I think it may actually been the fall of '68. I believe she said she was called into Motown one day and was told Martha no longer wants to work with her.

[TYK1986]

On classic.motown.com [[just one the articles I've read) they say she left towards the end of '69 and then on youtube there clips of Sandra performing with them on the mike Douglas show in '68. I have heard that story about being called into Motown too.

[reese]

On classic.motown.com [[just one the articles I've read) they say she left towards the end of '69 and then on youtube there clips of Sandra performing with them on the mike Douglas show in '68. I have heard that story about being called into Motown too.

In an issue of A TOUCH OF CLASSIC SOUL, Rosalind said that she was called into Motown and told that Martha no longer wanted to sing with her. She said she tried to contact Martha but wasn't able to as Martha was ill.

In her book, Martha mentioned that Rosalind filed a lawsuit against her afterwards, which Motown settled.

[PeaceNHarmony]

Makes a lot of sense SatansBlues. I would have done the same joining the biggest girl group ever if I could hold a note lol. I know some people might say be loyal to your group, and i can understand that, but what input did Cindy have in the Bluebelles? She didn't have much to say in the Supremes either but at least she was getting more income, better dresses [[so important lol), a lot more travelling and if you like that sort of thing go for it. Didn't one of the Bluebelles mention that Cindy sounded bland. So why make a fuzz of her leaving.I love Love LOVE my Labelle [[group) but have always had the feeling that the women just 'get along' out of necessity. Probably goes back to the PL&tB days as well. At least, perhaps. And we know that our beloved Miss Patti is not the most ... benigant ... woman ever.

[BobbyC]

I think Patti and Nona are completely opposite in terms of personality. And Sarah has changed a lot too and isn't a peacemaker anymore. All three just grew in different directions, and once that happens it's hard to go back to the roles they played in Labelle 30 years ago. It's normal.

[marybrewster]

Totally unrelated: were Flo and Cindy the same shoe size?

[floyjoy678]

Totally unrelated: were Flo and Cindy the same shoe size?

Lol I think there's an interview where Diana says Florence's clothes and shoes fit Cindy.

[blackguy69]

Actually Cindy was slightly smaller than Flo. Now Flo wasn’t fat but for these dresses a pound or two gained can make a difference.
Lol I think there's an interview where Diana says Florence's clothes and shoes fit Cindy.

[TYK1986]

Flo was indeed not fat and like you say it was the dresses. I have never seen a photo where she looked over weight up till she left the Supremes. Cindy was more the same height as Mary and Diana but during her second run in the mid 70's she always looked a bit taller than Mary to me.

[sup_fan]

you can definitely see Flo's weight gain when comparing early and later pics during her Supremes' tenure.

was she obese? no of course not. look at the pics of her in the dark blue sequins, around Jan 67 vs the pics of her and the girls on tv in the red fringe gowns. you can definitely see her face is heavier.

she also had a very different figure and body type from Diana. some of the outfits frankly weren't as flattering on Flo - the empire waist chiffon gowns like the pink ones on Sullivan, made her figure look much larger than Diana's. it's not that flo was necessarily fat, just that she curvaceous figure would have been better suited to other looks

Also as someone mentioned, these gowns were NOT forgiving in any way or form. a few pounds gained would mean costly alterations. Plus they spent a LOT of money on these gowns and to have recently purchased and expensive outfits not wearable because someone gained weight would be a problem

[Ollie9]

I never really understood what all all the hyperbole was about regarding Florence being overweight. On her very last photo shoot with the group in the Nevada Desert 67 she looks pretty trim. Diana on the contrary looks skin and bone.

[blackguy69]

Those dresses weren’t exactly form fitting, they were very loose
I never really understood what all all the hyperbole was about regarding Florence being overweight. On her very last photo shoot with the group in the Nevada Desert 67 she looks pretty trim. Diana on the contrary looks skin and bone.

[TheMotownManiac]

Not putting Cindy down at all, but was she really that nice or innocent? I know it may be almost criminal to ask this. At some point neither Flo, Diana, Patti, or Nona thought she was that nice.

Cindy really is THAT nice. She got caught up in the group politics for a time and wasn’t proud of it, but, she’s really a kind, gentle, unselfish person. One of the most genuinely nice people I’ve ever met. She’s totally without guile, so she was easily led astray by others - think Betty White on Golden Girls but not as naive. I can’t imagine anyone not liking her unless they had an agenda that didn’t mesh well with her good nature.

[TheMotownManiac]

Flo may not have been “fat” to some folks, but she was heavier than what was desired and, what I think the issue was, that she was on a trajectory to get huge. Her body weight increased by at least 25% in 3 years - that’s a horrible trend. She couldn’t fit into some stage wear and looked awful on Her last Ed Sullivan. Diana was scary thin, and Mary, with stuffed bra and butt, was perfect. Take 15 pound off Flo, add to Diana and they’d all be amazing.

[Ollie9]

Flo may not have been “fat” to some folks, but she was heavier than what was desired and, what I think the issue was, that she was on a trajectory to get huge. Her body weight increased by at least 25% in 3 years - that’s a horrible trend. She couldn’t fit into some stage wear and looked awful on Her last Ed Sullivan. Diana was scary thin, and Mary, with stuffed bra and butt, was perfect. Take 15 pound off Flo, add to Diana and they’d all be amazing.

Do you think Flo looked overweight on her last Ed Sullivan appearance?. She looks just fine to me. I have never seen a video clip or photo of Flo where i have thought she really did need to lose weight. I cannot say the same of Cindy Birdsong, who on occasion looked like she really did need to lose a few pounds.
Personally, i don’t think Flo’s weight made her stand out or look less attractive and appealing when performing with the group. Dance steps yes. Weight no. Just my opinion.

[sup_fan]

and being overweight wasn't the specific reason for her dismissal. yeah they might have nagged her about trimming down but the real problem was her behavior.

what's interesting is if you listen to the alt versions of the Supremes interview from 65, D and M give her some pretty snarky punches about weight!! the version on the 25th Anniversary set isn't so interesting but listen to the others that were put out on the More Hits EE and then DRATS singles package. Mary said Flo looks like a ham. Diana says she's a 3 and Mary chimes in that Flo is a 9! lol obviously they're being silly and goofy.

[blackguy69]

Lol I read the 65 interview in Ebony saying that both Diana and Mary were a size 5?while Flo was a size 8. Fast forward to less than 2 years later Diana was a 3/4 and Mary was 6/7 and Flo was a 12. The more telling story is on the last day Flo was a Supremes when Flo found Cindy ‘s outfit and put it on. This is when you see that they were not the same size. It was tight and looked ill fitting. So I’m assuming that Cindy was around a 9 maybe a 10.


and being overweight wasn't the specific reason for her dismissal. yeah they might have nagged her about trimming down but the real problem was her behavior.

what's interesting is if you listen to the alt versions of the Supremes interview from 65, D and M give her some pretty snarky punches about weight!! the version on the 25th Anniversary set isn't so interesting but listen to the others that were put out on the More Hits EE and then DRATS singles package. Mary said Flo looks like a ham. Diana says she's a 3 and Mary chimes in that Flo is a 9! lol obviously they're being silly and goofy.

[SatansBlues]

I can't believe in October of 2020 that folks are still talking about a woman's weight. I would expect that from someone like Trump, but not here.

[sup_fan]

Not today Satan! lolol ;)

just had to say that hehehe

although we're getting into the weeds on it, i don't think we're simply addressing the size of a woman. If that were the case, we'd also chat about Cindy's yo-yo'ing weight.

The issue here, at least as how i see it, is the broader discussion of Flo's overall decline and unraveling. Some fans try to say Gordy simply fired Flo cuz she was fat. That doesn't seem to really be the issue actually. her general unhappiness seems to have manifested itself in a variety of ways - there were reports about how moody she was and how everyone around never really knew if today would be a good day or bad day, her skipping rehearsals, recordings, appearances, etc, the drinking, the weight gain, etc. So as i see it, we're discussing one element of a complex and intricate situation that did actually have massive implications on the group - the eventual departure of a founding member.

[SatansBlues]

Not today Satan! lolol ;)

just had to say that hehehe

although we're getting into the weeds on it, i don't think we're simply addressing the size of a woman. If that were the case, we'd also chat about Cindy's yo-yo'ing weight.

The issue here, at least as how i see it, is the broader discussion of Flo's overall decline and unraveling. Some fans try to say Gordy simply fired Flo cuz she was fat. That doesn't seem to really be the issue actually. her general unhappiness seems to have manifested itself in a variety of ways - there were reports about how moody she was and how everyone around never really knew if today would be a good day or bad day, her skipping rehearsals, recordings, appearances, etc, the drinking, the weight gain, etc. So as i see it, we're discussing one element of a complex and intricate situation that did actually have massive implications on the group - the eventual departure of a founding member.
How or why is it that no one else's weight gets discussed on SD? I've NEVER seen or read a discussion on any male singer's weight or any other female's weight, only Florence's. Florence left the Supreme's in the summer of 1967. But Gladys Horton also left the Marvelette's in '67 as did Betty Kelly from the Vandellas in the summer of '67. No one ever mentions their departure or why they left or why none of the female lead singers besides Diana Ross were offered solo contracts after leaving their groups: not Cal Gil, not Martha Reeves, not Gladys Horton, not Wanda Rogers. Yet David Ruffin, Eddie Kendricks, Paul Williams, Dennis Edwards were all given contracts. Was it sexism? Now that's a topic worthy of discussion.

[sup_fan]

again i think it's intricately tied into the whole implosion of the Supremes. the weight was 1 issue among many. and us fans love to chat away on so many different topics in regard to the group.

i don't recall the other singers at Motown that had a falling out having quite the drama that the Flo situation did. Ruffin would be a close runner, Paul williams too.

Gladys Horton wasn't given a solo deal because 1) she wanted to leave to raise her special needs child and 2) no one cared about the marvelettes

Martha and Wanda both [[possibly) had some opportunities for solo work but 1) they would always be in the dark shadows of Diana and 2) they had some very serious drug issues and personal problems.

David and Dennis received solo deals but basically went nowhere. David lucked out with a few hits. Eddie was reasonably successful but he was long since cast as a "motown outside" given his outspokeness. he also didn't have the solo following that Stevie and marvin had. nor had he displayed or fought for the artistic freedom of writing and producing

and you're absolutely right. Motown was hideously chauvinistic. but not so sure that was especially unique to motown. women in all industries and across american society at the time were widely discredited. definitely watch Mrs America on Netflix! [[or was it Amazon Prime??) fascinating show

[Ollie9]

Not today Satan! lolol ;)

just had to say that hehehe

although we're getting into the weeds on it, i don't think we're simply addressing the size of a woman. If that were the case, we'd also chat about Cindy's yo-yo'ing weight.

The issue here, at least as how i see it, is the broader discussion of Flo's overall decline and unraveling. Some fans try to say Gordy simply fired Flo cuz she was fat. That doesn't seem to really be the issue actually. her general unhappiness seems to have manifested itself in a variety of ways - there were reports about how moody she was and how everyone around never really knew if today would be a good day or bad day, her skipping rehearsals, recordings, appearances, etc, the drinking, the weight gain, etc. So as i see it, we're discussing one element of a complex and intricate situation that did actually have massive implications on the group - the eventual departure of a founding member.

Well put sup. Flo’s weight issues remain relevant to the telling of her story.

[TYK1986]

How or why is it that no one else's weight gets discussed on SD? I've NEVER seen or read a discussion on any male singer's weight or any other female's weight, only Florence's. Florence left the Supreme's in the summer of 1967. But Gladys Horton also left the Marvelette's in '67 as did Betty Kelly from the Vandellas in the summer of '67. No one ever mentions their departure or why they left or why none of the female lead singers besides Diana Ross were offered solo contracts after leaving their groups: not Cal Gil, not Martha Reeves, not Gladys Horton, not Wanda Rogers. Yet David Ruffin, Eddie Kendricks, Paul Williams, Dennis Edwards were all given contracts. Was it sexism? Now that's a topic worthy of discussion.

I would like to hear from Betty herself why she left in '67. Same with Rosalind the following year. The Vandellas are shrouded in mystery to me. We had a little conversation earlier in this or another thread. A lot of the Vandellas information seems mixed up. Even how the name Vandellas came about. We have Martha's story and Rosalind/Anette's story. I came to my own conclusion and think Martha came up with the name. She told Berry and then they decided to pretend giving the others the chance to come up with a name. Then Berry came in and the girls didn't come up with anything and then, as Rosalind and Annette said in an interview, Berry said you'll be the Vandellas. It was always going to be the Vandellas. Thats what I think.

[SatansBlues]

Well put sup. Flo’s weight issues remain relevant to the telling of her story.
How exactly is Florence's weight relevant? Was David Ruffin's weight relevant when he was fired from the Temptations? No. How much did Marvin Gaye weight again?

[SatansBlues]

I would like to hear from Betty herself why she left in '67. Same with Rosalind the following year. The Vandellas are shrouded in mystery to me. We had a little conversation earlier in this or another thread. A lot of the Vandellas information seems mixed up. Even how the name Vandellas came about. We have Martha's story and Rosalind/Anette's story. I came to my own conclusion and think Martha came up with the name. She told Berry and then they decided to pretend giving the others the chance to come up with a name. Then Berry came in and the girls didn't come up with anything and then, as Rosalind and Annette said in an interview, Berry said you'll be the Vandellas. It was always going to be the Vandellas. Thats what I think.
I agree. I would love to hear more details about why both Rosalind and Betty were both unceremoniously dumped by Martha. There's an untold story there. What was their financial payout? Did I just read last week that Rosalind sued Motown after she was fired? Did she get a full accounting of the groups earnings? Is this when Martha started asking questions of Motown about where all the group's money was going?

[floyjoy678]

I agree. I would love to hear more details about why both Rosalind and Betty were both unceremoniously dumped by Martha. There's an untold story there. What was their financial payout? Did I just read last week that Rosalind sued Motown after she was fired? Did she get a full accounting of the groups earnings? Is this when Martha started asking questions of Motown about where all the group's money was going?

Rosalind sued Martha. This happened right after Martha was hospitalized and had become paranoid. She felt like she couldn't trust Rosalind and thought she was out to get her. Betty was fired because she was getting fed up with Martha's issues and they started fighting. I think Betty started showing up at their shows after being fired and would heckle Martha from the audience.

[floyjoy678]

These are all Martha's account though. I never seen any quotes or heard directly from Rosalind or Betty about their firings.

[TYK1986]

I think there was also a story about Rosalind's then current boyfriend. Not sure but will have to find it so don't take my word for it. I find it funny how we almost got the exact details up till Florence dismissal but when it comes to the Vandellas not. They more or less just disappeared and were replaced. Did people even realize? Sure they must have even if they didn't know their names.

[BobbyC]

Maybe sexism had some to do with with the way female artists were treated but I'll say this: I know all the original Temptations' names, all the Supremes' names, but after that, I know mostly just the lead singers names of the other major Motown acts. Why is that? I am not entirely sure. Anyway, Florence Ballard was never fat. Anybody would look over-weight next to Diana Ross in those days. Today DR thinks she was probably anorexic, but I think it was just stress. DR didn't know how to relax without fearing she'd lose her position in show biz.All that being said, I recall a lot of people complaining that David Ruffin looked "skeletal." By then his drug problem was well known and I think people looked at his emaciated state and thought mmmm hmmmm, told you so!

[TheMotownManiac]

How or why is it that no one else's weight gets discussed on SD? I've NEVER seen or read a discussion on any male singer's weight or any other female's weight, only Florence's. Florence left the Supreme's in the summer of 1967. But Gladys Horton also left the Marvelette's in '67 as did Betty Kelly from the Vandellas in the summer of '67. No one ever mentions their departure or why they left or why none of the female lead singers besides Diana Ross were offered solo contracts after leaving their groups: not Cal Gil, not Martha Reeves, not Gladys Horton, not Wanda Rogers. Yet David Ruffin, Eddie Kendricks, Paul Williams, Dennis Edwards were all given contracts. Was it sexism? Now that's a topic worthy of discussion.

A) I recall more than one or at least one very lengthy thread about Betty Kelly leaving the Vandellas. In general the reason things aren’t discussed is because no one cares to discuss them.

B) Martha Reeves most certainly was going to be a solo act at Motown until Richard Perry bought out her contract. She had recorded a few tracks intended for solo release.

‘Motown didn’t offer Cal Gil, Wanda Rogers and Gladys Horton solo contracts probably for the same reason no one else in the record industry offered them contracts: they didn’t see any potential profits in these women. The record business is the same as any other business: they will do anything to make a buck and they will go to great lengths not to lose a buck. If somebody thought that they could make money on Cal Gille they certainly would have snapped her app and got behind her and tried to make a go of it. There’s nothing wrong with her, But she’s quite unremarkable. I would guess that there were at least 1000 other women her age in the United States in 1967 who were much better suited for a solo contract that didn’t get solo contracts.

As previously stated, Florences weight is discussed frequently because it was a thorn in the side of the powers that be at Motown. Mary said in her book that sometimes they couldn’t wear a certain outfit because flo couldn’t fit into hers.

Yes, I certainly do believe she looked too heavy on Ed Sullivan. At that rate, in another year, it’s likely to assume she would be obese. She might not have realized all the calories in alcohol, but there’s no denying that she was getting bigger and bigger. You can see her getting bigger from Rogers and Hart, to Andy Williams to Ed Sullivan. That doesn’t make it a hanging offense in my opinion, but it would spoil the look of the group if it remained unchecked. Cindy certainly got too fat, and looked matronly. I’m so glad she slimmed up for the new Supremes on Ed Sullivan.

[Ollie9]

How exactly is Florence's weight relevant? Was David Ruffin's weight relevant when he was fired from the Temptations? No. How much did Marvin Gaye weight again?

The Supremes image was to a large extent built on glamour. The gender correctness of that is another discussion entirely. The manifestation of Flo’s weight problems were most likely linked with her general dissatisfaction about Gordy and what was happening within the group. That is why it is so often mentioned when discussing her downfall.

[TYK1986]

I will have to find them threads about Betty on the forum. It was one of the reasons why I wanted to get Martha's book but it seems her version of events seem to be too one sided. Same as to why Rosalind left and how Lois stepped in. I think Martha can be a very difficult person to be with in a group. Don't say she's a bad person but just difficult to work with. Also as to why Sandra was chosen to replace Rosalind. Am just one of them people who do care to discuss :rolleyes:

[sup_fan]

A) I recall more than one or at least one very lengthy thread about Betty Kelly leaving the Vandellas. In general the reason things aren’t discussed is because no one cares to discuss them.

B) Martha Reeves most certainly was going to be a solo act at Motown until Richard Perry bought out her contract. She had recorded a few tracks intended for solo release.

‘Motown didn’t offer Cal Gil, Wanda Rogers and Gladys Horton solo contracts probably for the same reason no one else in the record industry offered them contracts: they didn’t see any potential profits in these women. The record business is the same as any other business: they will do anything to make a buck and they will go to great lengths not to lose a buck. If somebody thought that they could make money on Cal Gille they certainly would have snapped her app and got behind her and tried to make a go of it. There’s nothing wrong with her, But she’s quite unremarkable. I would guess that there were at least 1000 other women her age in the United States in 1967 who were much better suited for a solo contract that didn’t get solo contracts.

As previously stated, Florences weight is discussed frequently because it was a thorn in the side of the powers that be at Motown. Mary said in her book that sometimes they couldn’t wear a certain outfit because flo couldn’t fit into hers.

Yes, I certainly do believe she looked too heavy on Ed Sullivan. At that rate, in another year, it’s likely to assume she would be obese. She might not have realized all the calories in alcohol, but there’s no denying that she was getting bigger and bigger. You can see her getting bigger from Rogers and Hart, to Andy Williams to Ed Sullivan. That doesn’t make it a hanging offense in my opinion, but it would spoil the look of the group if it remained unchecked. Cindy certainly got too fat, and looked matronly. I’m so glad she slimmed up for the new Supremes on Ed Sullivan.

excellent post Maniac. yeah all of the sups had weight fluctuations, as is normal. every human does. But the group was also selling a very specific image and working towards that. you mention R&H and that's a great example. flo looked shapely and womanly there. very curvaceous but not fat. on the other hand, Diana looked like a refugee, she was that emaciated. there are times when diana turns during their opening segment in the red gowns and she's at an angle to the camera. makes her look sickly thin

Cindy also had ups and downs. i think Cindy looked extremely heavy during GIT, especially in the pink feather chevron gowns. but then she had looked super curvy and wonderful in other appearances.

In some interviews mary talked about the issues of weight gain. we might be making it sound a bit silly and catty here but think of the reality of it with the gowns. there was NO forgiveness in those outfits. they were perfectly fitted to whatever size you were when the outfit was made. a few pounds of Christmas fat could mean that several sets of gowns had to be returned to the designer for alterations. The girls would travel with 6 or so sets of outfits, different styles and outfits. and outfits were also being sent for repairs, rebeading, cleaning, etc. And once they were altered to be larger, if the girl lost weight they'd have be altered back down.

this could quickly add up to hundreds of dollars of expense. so it really isn't a trivial matter

[CoolKatz]

Imo, the issues were not with Flo's weight at all, as she was an average size for a healthy black woman with her height. The belief that in order for a black female artist to crossover they had to be Twiggy thin is a myth. There were many other curvaceous female entertainers out there Mary Wells, Aretha, Etta, Micki Harris of the Shirelles, Tammi Terrell, Wanda Rogers the list goes on and on. Her issues were conflicts with Gordy and her fluctuating weight was used as a weapon. Had she been male it would not have gone as far as it did. I will say again that the Supremes and Flo's story are much more intricate than the surface details that have been fed to the public over the years. At this stage it's all water under the bridge

[sup_fan]

Imo, the issues were not with Flo's weight at all, as she was an average size for a healthy black woman with her height. The belief that in order for a black female artist to crossover they had to be Twiggy thin is a myth. There were many other curvaceous female entertainers out there Mary Wells, Aretha, Etta, Micki Harris of the Shirelles, Tammi Terrell, Wanda Rogers the list goes on and on. Her issues were conflicts with Gordy and her fluctuating weight was used as a weapon. Had she been male it would not have gone as far as it did. I will say again that the Supremes and Flo's story are much more intricate than the surface details that have been fed to the public over the years. At this stage it's all water under the bridge

agreed. no supreme was ever fired for being fat. as we've stated, there are times when Cindy was heavier, Jean, Mary - probably nearly all of them except Diana at some point

if there hadn't been all the other issues at the time, the issues of Flo's weight would have probably simply been something where weight fluctuates a bit and you diet and correct it. no problem, no scandal

[marybrewster]

Martha definitely likes to be the boss of "her" Vandellas. Whether that's right or wrong, that's what it is. I suppose over time it was difficult to get them to "know their place", especially with Roz who started with Martha, so it was easier to replace than have internal conflict. I think that's why Martha has said to the effect that Sandy and Lois were her favorite Vandellas; Martha had them under her thumb.

[sup_fan]

Martha definitely likes to be the boss of "her" Vandellas. Whether that's right or wrong, that's what it is. I suppose over time it was difficult to get them to "know their place", especially with Roz who started with Martha, so it was easier to replace than have internal conflict. I think that's why Martha has said to the effect that Sandy and Lois were her favorite Vandellas; Martha had them under her thumb.

I don't know much about the details of the internal issues with MRATV other than what was in her book. with the supremes you sort of had the idea of a group all working together towards common goals [[although that would sometimes not be the case, like in much of the DRATS years). But with MRATV, the Vs were really just employees. like the band. And sounds like Martha had some very dark periods in the later 60s with the baby, drugs, the breakdown. i can imagine that the situation was rather volatile

[blackguy69]

Problem is when Roz and Nette spoke on the happenings they gave a different story. They said they were signed to Motown not just background to Martha.

I don't know much about the details of the internal issues with MRATV other than what was in her book. with the supremes you sort of had the idea of a group all working together towards common goals [[although that would sometimes not be the case, like in much of the DRATS years). But with MRATV, the Vs were really just employees. like the band. And sounds like Martha had some very dark periods in the later 60s with the baby, drugs, the breakdown. i can imagine that the situation was rather volatile

[marybrewster]

I don't know how Roz and Nettie couldn't have been signed to Motown. God bless her, but Martha likes to tell some tales. No way BG would have let "a secretary" call the shots in his business.

[TYK1986]

I think Rosalind, Anette and Betty were all signed to Motown. Betty was with the Velvelettes. Some of the stories they tell never make any sense and they contradict each other. As much as I like Martha I do think that she likes to tell the stories in her own favour.

[franjoy56]

There was definite conflict in t marvelettes between Wanda and gladys especially when t lead shifted between gladys t Wanda in 65 and Wanda head swelled t t irritation of both gladys and Catherine and it got worse when gladys left.

[TYK1986]

Yes Wanda got worse and Gladys and Catherine were far more group orientated. I read the book a few years ago but forgot a lot. Think it's time to re-read the book. I wonder if Gladys would have stayed longer, despite her giving birth, if Gladys had more input and lead singles. After too many fish it was more or less all Wanda. And Wanda became more problematic.

[grangertim]

Not putting Cindy down at all, but was she really that nice or innocent? I know it may be almost criminal to ask this. At some point neither Flo, Diana, Patti, or Nona thought she was that nice.

"I remember Cindy as a nice, sweet girl, always willing to please" - Diana Ross, Secrets of a Sparrow

[RanRan79]

For me, the truth regarding Martha and the Vandellas is in when the Vandellas sued for back royalties, they went after Motown, not Martha. Hired session singers- which is basically what Martha's "story" of these hired Vandellas is- don't receive royalties, as far as I know. And if the hiring contract was between Martha and the ladies, then any money owed would come from Martha, not Motown, even if the money Martha was owed came from Motown. The Vandellas sued Motown and won, if I'm not mistaken.

[sup_fan]

For me, the truth regarding Martha and the Vandellas is in when the Vandellas sued for back royalties, they went after Motown, not Martha. Hired session singers- which is basically what Martha's "story" of these hired Vandellas is- don't receive royalties, as far as I know. And if the hiring contract was between Martha and the ladies, then any money owed would come from Martha, not Motown, even if the money Martha was owed came from Motown. The Vandellas sued Motown and won, if I'm not mistaken.

good point. were Sandy and Lois receiving royalties too?

my initial point was more about group decisions and direction. it's my understanding that the Vs were not particularly involved in this. realize that frankly none of the motown women really were involved in this, if the truth were told. but during the DMF years, M and F certainly had more voice in what they would wear, sing, do, etc. i don't know that the Vs had this role

[RanRan79]

good point. were Sandy and Lois receiving royalties too?

my initial point was more about group decisions and direction. it's my understanding that the Vs were not particularly involved in this. realize that frankly none of the motown women really were involved in this, if the truth were told. but during the DMF years, M and F certainly had more voice in what they would wear, sing, do, etc. i don't know that the Vs had this role

Oh yeah, I get that the Vandellas weren't structured like the Supremes. Martha was always the queen of that crew, at least from the point that "I'll Have To Let Him Go" was released. I just think her tale of basically being a solo artist with a backup group she hired is pretty much bullshit. Did she call Roz and Annette in for the first session, as the story goes? Probably. They had already sung together as the Del Phis, so why wouldn't she? But did they sign contracts to Martha or Motown? I'm betting Motown.

Regarding Sandy and Lois, I think this might be where Martha may have hired them herself. But even that seems a little strange because Motown packaged them up as official entity on the albums. Would Motown have done this if they weren't officially signed to Motown? I don't know. Of course, if it's true that Jean was salaried and not receiving royalties from her initial hits with the Supremes, this may have been the case with Lois and Sandy also.

[blackguy69]

I think in the case of Lois she was the only one that came from outside Motown so her agreement was different than Roz’s. Sandra was already at motown when she joined so I’m not sure what her agreement was. I’m guessing since both of them did record as the vandellas there had to been some contract with the label.

Oh yeah, I get that the Vandellas weren't structured like the Supremes. Martha was always the queen of that crew, at least from the point that "I'll Have To Let Him Go" was released. I just think her tale of basically being a solo artist with a backup group she hired is pretty much bullshit. Did she call Roz and Annette in for the first session, as the story goes? Probably. They had already sung together as the Del Phis, so why wouldn't she? But did they sign contracts to Martha or Motown? I'm betting Motown.

Regarding Sandy and Lois, I think this might be where Martha may have hired them herself. But even that seems a little strange because Motown packaged them up as official entity on the albums. Would Motown have done this if they weren't officially signed to Motown? I don't know. Of course, if it's true that Jean was salaried and not receiving royalties from her initial hits with the Supremes, this may have been the case with Lois and Sandy also.

[RanRan79]

I think in the case of Lois she was the only one that came from outside Motown so her agreement was different than Roz’s. Sandra was already at motown when she joined so I’m not sure what her agreement was. I’m guessing since both of them did record as the vandellas there had to been some contract with the label.

Yeah, Sandra probably had an official agreement since she had already been a Motown recording artist. It really does make sense that any woman singing with Martha as official Vandellas during Martha's time at Motown, said women would be official Motown recording artists. Is there ever a time when someone officially recorded for Motown without any agreement? Seems like that could get real complicated on either the singer or label's behalf.