Supreme Marlene

[marybrewster]

Forgive me if this has been asked before:

We know of at least one instance where Marlene filled in for Flo. I assume Marlene had a contract as an Andante, but how do you suppose she was compensated as a Supreme? Did she get 1/3 of the performance fee? Was she paid an hourly rate? Or was she even compensated at all?

[reese]

I'm sure she didn't get a 1/3. More than likely, Berry gave her bonuses for being able to step in so quickly.

[BobbyC]

I've never read anything about how much she got paid. Sorry.

[BobbyC]

I'd guess she was on retainer for her time at Motown--both as a background vocalist and as a replacement for Florence--but as Reese said,I'd imagine she got a little extra for being able to fill in on the fly.

[floyjoy678]

When exactly did Marlene sub for Flo? These are the times that I know of:

June 1965
-That country club appearance
July 1965
-Filled in for multiple one nighters right before the Copa debut [[Flo had the flu)
July 1966
-Filled in on recording sessions
April 1967
-Filled in for Flo for a couple dates after the New Orleans fiasco
May 1967
-Possibly, most likely, filled in for the Reflections session

Am I missing any? I think she may have filled in for some early 1966 shows but I think those may have been confused with the 1965 dates.

[floyjoy678]

I would have love to have witnessed the Diana and Mary duet show. According to Diana they both did the show holding their hand mics and abandoned the choreography.

[BobbyC]

I'd like to see that clip too--if it exists.

[sup_fan]

When exactly did Marlene sub for Flo? These are the times that I know of:

June 1965
-That country club appearance
July 1965
-Filled in for multiple one nighters right before the Copa debut [[Flo had the flu)
July 1966
-Filled in on recording sessions
April 1967
-Filled in for Flo for a couple dates after the New Orleans fiasco
May 1967
-Possibly, most likely, filled in for the Reflections session

Am I missing any? I think she may have filled in for some early 1966 shows but I think those may have been confused with the 1965 dates.

if you think about it, that's quite a bit. Imagine if you blew off your job that many times for that period of time. You'd be fired too

as for pay, i don't recall anything in the Andantes book about what Marlene might have gotten. Of course she wouldn't have received Flo's cut of the engagement but then again - maybe she did? i certainly wouldn't have paid it to flo. not sure how they did all of that.

[sup_fan]

I'd like to see that clip too--if it exists.

or even to read a newspaper review of it. a duet act is very different from a lead and 2 backgrounds. Mary's part was so intricately tied with Flo's that it would be odd to simply have her singing her bgs by herself. So did she make up more harmony notes to accompany Diana? talk about an incredibly stressful moment for the group

[jobeterob]

Surprised at the number of times Flo missed engagements; yes, that would give cause for dismissal. I'm sure Marlene got a very basic pay - probably what she normally got as an Andante plus something extra - and meals and hotels etc.

Good work on this floyjoy.

[BobbyC]

Sup-fan--that's a good question. It would be interesting to hear how they pulled off a two woman show!

[khansperac]

I’d imagine that it would have sounded like the “Talk of the Town” concert. I don’t really hear Cindy at all. Only Diana and Mary.

[TYK1986]

Maybe they sang for an audience who didn't even know there were supposed to be three girls. But like khansperac I don't hear Cindy hardly at all on the Talk of the Town. They must have been very nervous performing without Florence/ or another third girl. Wonder how they felt before/ during and after the show. As for Marlene I think she got paid extra but not 1/3. But if she didn't get paid that 1/3 where did that money go to?

[reese]

There's a thread here where I believe Supremestar recounted an interview he had with Gil Askey about the time Diana and Mary had to appear as a duo. I don't recall all of it but he mentioned how at a meeting beforehand, the girls were terribly nervous and afraid. But then they started strategizing and getting creative.

On a related note, someone who attended the taping of Diana's first Oprah appearance stated that Oprah mentioned she had attended a show where Flo wasn't present. Since it didn't make it to the final show, I don't know if they were a duo again or if Marlene stepped in. But it would be interesting to hear from an audience member, something that I've never seen or read.

[khansperac]

Could she have meant that she saw Diana, Mary, Cindy? Because in the show they do have her saying she never really accepted Cindy.

[reese]

Could she have meant that she saw Diana, Mary, Cindy? Because in the show they do have her saying she never really accepted Cindy.

I just looked at the original source, a REACH OUT! fan club newsletter. It says that Oprah mentioned she had been to a show with just Diana and Mary, as Flo had not shown up.

[thommg]

Didn't Diana mention on the Tonight Show [[I think) that there was a standby for Mary & Flo but not for her? My guess is that Marlene already had some kind of deal worked out after Flo missed her first gig.

[reese]

Didn't Diana mention on the Tonight Show [[I think) that there was a standby for Mary & Flo but not for her? My guess is that Marlene already had some kind of deal worked out after Flo missed her first gig.

She did, although some speculated she might have said that because there were rumors abut Flo leaving after she didn't appear at the Hollywood Bowl.

Mary has mentioned that she didn't know there was a stand-in for her as well. If there was, no one has ever identified who it was. Maybe Marlene would have stood in for Mary if needed but I don't think Mary ever missed a gig during the 60s.

[marybrewster]

I guess I always assumed that Flo and Mary EACH had a fill in, but I guess it makes more sense that Marlene would have been on retainer to fill in for either? What would have been the chances both would have been out for the same show.

Makes you wonder if Marlene was still on tap from 67 to 69/70?

Another thought, think about how many performances Diana and Mary did from 64 to 69 and neither missed any? Or minimal at best.

[floyjoy678]

Did some more research...

A tour was planned in early 1966 overseas that was cancelled due to Flo being sick.

Diana never missed a show but a series of shows were cancelled in the spring of 1966 after she collapsed on stage for a couple of shows and then had her infamous breakdown on stage resulting in her being hospitalized.

[floyjoy678]

Oh and a benefit show was cancelled in the fall of '66 as well due to Flo having walking pneumonia.

[JohnnyB]

Oh and a benefit show was cancelled in the fall of '66 as well due to Flo having walking pneumonia.

These missed performances listed in one thread certainly paint a picture of someone who may have been deemed unreliable in comparison to Diana and Mary. Right or wrong, I can only imagine the stress Motown was under—as well as D & M, and Flo perhaps feeling responsible for the chaos—with ticket holders, full auditoriums and performance contracts at risk.

[jim aka jtigre99]

I remember a television interview where Mary jokingly said she sang all the ooh's by herself in the show Flo did not show up for. Didn't they offer Marlene the job of replacing Flo earlier before Cindy and she declined, I wonder why. I also wonder who they had waiting in the wings for Mary if it wasn't Marlene for both. That does seem quite a number of times that Flo missed concerts, etc. I know when Ross became ill, they cancelled performances as well as when her dogs died. It seems Mary always showed up until the Copa where she "fell ill "once after Jean was off ill and replaced by Lynda who was replaced by a very pregnant Cindy. Just curious as to why Marlene declined since she already had done gigs and recordings with Mary and Diana. Anyone know the 411?

[floyjoy678]

I remember a television interview where Mary jokingly said she sang all the ooh's by herself in the show Flo did not show up for. Didn't they offer Marlene the job of replacing Flo earlier before Cindy and she declined, I wonder why. I also wonder who they had waiting in the wings for Mary if it wasn't Marlene for both. That does seem quite a number of times that Flo missed concerts, etc. I know when Ross became ill, they cancelled performances as well as when her dogs died. It seems Mary always showed up until the Copa where she "fell ill "once after Jean was off ill and replaced by Lynda who was replaced by a very pregnant Cindy. Just curious as to why Marlene declined since she already had done gigs and recordings with Mary and Diana. Anyone know the 411?

I seem to remember Marlene saying that she didn't think she'd be able to keep up with the heavy touring. If anyone knows the exact quote, please correct me.

I also remember her saying Diana was cold towards her.

[reese]

I remember a television interview where Mary jokingly said she sang all the ooh's by herself in the show Flo did not show up for. Didn't they offer Marlene the job of replacing Flo earlier before Cindy and she declined, I wonder why. I also wonder who they had waiting in the wings for Mary if it wasn't Marlene for both. That does seem quite a number of times that Flo missed concerts, etc. I know when Ross became ill, they cancelled performances as well as when her dogs died. It seems Mary always showed up until the Copa where she "fell ill "once after Jean was off ill and replaced by Lynda who was replaced by a very pregnant Cindy. Just curious as to why Marlene declined since she already had done gigs and recordings with Mary and Diana. Anyone know the 411?

In Vickie Wright's book on the Andantes, Marlene never mentions a definite offer to join the group. She says she knew it was a temporary situation to complete dates while they were negotiating to have Cindy join. She mentioned some of the places that they played and that Mary taught her the routines. She also said that Diana was more private but that she didn't have a problem with either of them. Marlene concluded by saying her loyalty was to the Andantes and to her young son.

I think Marlene's timeline might be off by a year as some of the dates she mentioned seem to be in 1966. I don't think Cindy was approached until early 1967. In any event, in the book, she seems clear that it was a temporary situation.

[sup_fan]

I’d imagine that it would have sounded like the “Talk of the Town” concert. I don’t really hear Cindy at all. Only Diana and Mary.

true - but that's the lp. while M and C were certainly lowered on their mics, in a live performance it would have most likely been different from what we hear on vinyl. For the recording, they would have had the various mics [[Diana's, the backgrounds, the orchestra, etc) tracked so that in the studio they could mix things.

[sup_fan]

There's a thread here where I believe Supremestar recounted an interview he had with Gil Askey about the time Diana and Mary had to appear as a duo. I don't recall all of it but he mentioned how at a meeting beforehand, the girls were terribly nervous and afraid. But then they started strategizing and getting creative.

On a related note, someone who attended the taping of Diana's first Oprah appearance stated that Oprah mentioned she had attended a show where Flo wasn't present. Since it didn't make it to the final show, I don't know if they were a duo again or if Marlene stepped in. But it would be interesting to hear from an audience member, something that I've never seen or read.

that could be possible. she had subbed before so maybe Oprah caught one of those shows

the NOLA event was on 4/23. they were scheduled to appear at the Loyola Field House. then on 4/29 they did the hollywood bowl.

now according to sources, the meeting at Berry's house occurred between NOLA and Hollywood Bowl. so that's all just within a week's time!

[BobbyC]

The version of the story I've heard is the same as Floyjoy's. Diana did not want Marlene in the group and mostly refused to even talk to her. Who knows why? Maybe DR didn't like Marlene's vocals being over-dubbed on Supreme's records when they used to be done by the real group. Or maybe DR thought Marlene was competition. I know that DR knew Cindy already from touring, and liked her. She wanted Cindy in. But the reaction to Marlene remains a mystery.

[sup_fan]

I just looked at the original source, a REACH OUT! fan club newsletter. It says that Oprah mentioned she had been to a show with just Diana and Mary, as Flo had not shown up.

Oprah was born in 1954 so she would have been 13 at the time. She did have a troubled youth, having a baby at age 14 and having run away from home. It's possible she was in NOLA at the time. Prior to the NOLA performance, the girls played Univ of Tennessee on the 21st. Oprah was living in TN at the time - so maybe she was there. still being a runaway, i'd imagine buying a ticket for a Supremes' show would have been financially challenging

[BobbyC]

Another possibility is that Berry was trying to force Marlene on Diana, and DR was just bucking his authority. I think Diana was more loyal to Florence than she is given credit for. Up to a point.

[reese]

Oprah was born in 1954 so she would have been 13 at the time. She did have a troubled youth, having a baby at age 14 and having run away from home. It's possible she was in NOLA at the time. Prior to the NOLA performance, the girls played Univ of Tennessee on the 21st. Oprah was living in TN at the time - so maybe she was there. still being a runaway, i'd imagine buying a ticket for a Supremes' show would have been financially challenging

Oprah has often told the story of how as a young runaway, she happened upon Aretha sitting in a limo outside her hotel. She invented a sob story about being deserted by her family and by the time they reached the hotel entrance, Aretha had pulled $100 out of her purse and given it to her.

[captainjames]

The version of the story I've heard is the same as Floyjoy's. Diana did not want Marlene in the group and mostly refused to even talk to her. Who knows why? Maybe DR didn't like Marlene's vocals being over-dubbed on Supreme's records when they used to be done by the real group. Or maybe DR thought Marlene was competition. I know that DR knew Cindy already from touring, and liked her. She wanted Cindy in. But the reaction to Marlene remains a mystery.

I think Diana was just trying to hold on to Flo as long as she could.

[floyjoy678]

Another possibility is that Berry was trying to force Marlene on Diana, and DR was just bucking his authority. I think Diana was more loyal to Florence than she is given credit for. Up to a point.

Its been alluded that Diana most likely vouched for Flo or she would have been out of the group a lot sooner than she was. I think after the New Orleans disaster, she washed her hands of her.

[captainjames]

Its been alluded that Diana most likely vouched for Flo or she would have been out of the group a lot sooner than she was. I think after the New Orleans disaster, she washed her hands of her.

Agreed and I believe that is why Diana has made comments like never really accepting Cindy and sometimes wanting to just shake Flo. Of course when these things are said with a negative vibe people take it to the extreme and books are written to create a villain. Flo has even been quoted as saying she felt like she messed things up. However, Flo needed help and no one knew how to help her so a lot of Motown folks avoided her. Berry had little patience so in comes Marlene and the show must go on according to him.

[BobbyC]

Hey guys--if you read Tarroborelli's last book on Diana, there is a story in there about Florence doing something bad, like not showing up for a show [[wish I could remember the details)--and DR just slumped to the ground, saying something like "Why is she doing this to us?" It was a rare glimpse into DR's vulnerable side. DR was working herself half to death, losing weight when she couldn't afford to, always trying to get better etc. My interpretation of this incident was that Flo was F'ing things up, putting a target on her own back, and DR just couldn't grasp the self-sabotage at all. It's my opinion that DR didn't want Flo to be ousted, but at the same time she knew where it was all headed and couldn't do a damned thing about it. No wonder she wanted to shake her. Oh well, ancient history.

[TYK1986]

Maybe Jackie or Louvain can clarify this one day. They must have know what deal Marlene made with, I guess, Berry Gordy. It must have been very stressing and tense for both Diana and Mary to not know if Florence would show up or not. I think we all know that neither really wanted Florence out. But if I was in their shoes i'd probably would have done the same. As a nervous person I wouldn't be able to cope with someone not showing up which would add to the anxiety. Just putting yourself in their shoes sometimes changes your view about a person. Most bosses will call you into the office when you call in sick several times a year. It's not pleasant but it happens.

[sup_fan]

I think Diana was just trying to hold on to Flo as long as she could.

i think you're right. there have been stories on here shared from Gil and others that both M and D really wanted to keep the group intact and definitely cared about Flo. they were such young girls and just trying to do the best they could. But after awhile, enough is enough.

[sup_fan]

Hey guys--if you read Tarroborelli's last book on Diana, there is a story in there about Florence doing something bad, like not showing up for a show [[wish I could remember the details)--and DR just slumped to the ground, saying something like "Why is she doing this to us?" It was a rare glimpse into DR's vulnerable side. DR was working herself half to death, losing weight when she couldn't afford to, always trying to get better etc. My interpretation of this incident was that Flo was F'ing things up, putting a target on her own back, and DR just couldn't grasp the self-sabotage at all. It's my opinion that DR didn't want Flo to be ousted, but at the same time she knew where it was all headed and couldn't do a damned thing about it. No wonder she wanted to shake her. Oh well, ancient history.

exactly. look at how they'd gone from nothing to everything. they had worked and worked and it had paid off. and there was even more they could accomplish if they wanted to. I bet the idea that Flo couldn't see that frustrated Diana greatly. that drive to keep pushing and pushing.

Diana [[IMO) wanted the group to continue because that framework was allowing her to grow in amazing ways. she could do that because F and M were excellent talented partners and great showmen. Because of that, D was able to experiment and push herself to new levels. She certainly could recognize the winning formula they had going so why oh why would someone want to sabotage it?

[Ollie9]

The version of the story I've heard is the same as Floyjoy's. Diana did not want Marlene in the group and mostly refused to even talk to her. Who knows why? Maybe DR didn't like Marlene's vocals being over-dubbed on Supreme's records when they used to be done by the real group. Or maybe DR thought Marlene was competition. I know that DR knew Cindy already from touring, and liked her. She wanted Cindy in. But the reaction to Marlene remains a mystery.

I think your mixing Marlene up with Barbara Randolph Bobby. I have never heard of any animosity between Diana and Marlene.