Carol Kaye and Motown Unreleased

[mysterysinger]

A balanced article by Brian Wright from 2019 indicates that much of Kaye's known West Coast bass work remains unreleased. He also provides a detailed record of every Motown Los Angeles Musician's Union contract that lists Carol Kaye as a performer.

Without going over the various arguments [[Jamerson v Kaye), there does appear to be a sizeable number of Kaye tracks listed that may still remain unreleased. Would be good to get an opinion from those in the know as to the possibility that any of the unreleased tracks may see the light of day soon [[some have obviously already been made available).

https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/journal-of-the-society-for-american-music/article/reconstructing-the-history-of-motown-session-musicians-the-carol-kayejames-jamerson-controversy/57ACC9F2F2411AF36EB905769E1E53C3/core-reader

[jboy88]

I can’t read any of that!

[mysterysinger]

Try the article - Appendix A refers/

[Roger Polhill]

This is why so many were unreleased, her sound was wooden compared to Jamerson and most were standards, covers and remakes.She is a great player but the whole LA. sound to me was too poppy and didn`t groove like the Funks. "I Got A Feeling" by Barbara Randolph is really good but it ain`t got the mood of the Tops.How much better would "You`ve Made Me So Very Happy" been had it been recorded in Detroit. It`s why I`ve not been a fan of "Do I Love You [[Deed I Do) the bass pattern.

[jboy88]

Also, “Someday, We’ll be Together” was cut in Detroit and even then, Carole Kaye wouldn’t have played on it since she was no longer with the company by then. Most of LA produced tracks at that point had Wilton Felder on bass [[his style was much more close to Jamerson than Kaye could ever dream).

[Levi Stubbs Tears]

I too dislike 'revisionist history'.

On one hand I feel a bit sorry for Carol as the memory does play tricks at times and it may have not been clear to her that her playing was for a cover or other non-original track. I mean Mary Wilson could hardly remember if she sang on some Supremes hits or not.

On the other hand, I do dislike new 'revelations' when many of those involved at the time are no longer with us to prove or dispute these new 'facts'.

A very interesting article - thanks for posting, Mystery!

[mysterysinger]

I'm mostly interested in Appendix A though which is a Detailed Record of Every Motown Los Angeles Musician's Union Contract That Lists Kaye as a Performer. So that seems to provide the documentary evidence but moreover lists tracks that I think have still to see the light of day. For example, what about a DRATS version of "You're All I Need To Get By" from 1968?

[paul_nixon]

I'm mostly interested in Appendix A though which is a Detailed Record of Every Motown Los Angeles Musician's Union Contract That Lists Kaye as a Performer. So that seems to provide the documentary evidence but moreover lists tracks that I think have still to see the light of day. For example, what about a DRATS version of "You're All I Need To Get By" from 1968?

Tempts and Supremes no vocal recorded...

[mysterysinger]

That's a shame.

[snakepit]

This topic is being discussed on another forum.
It is clear to me that Carol Kaye is very talented and played on many great recordings.
It is also clear that she is on many Motown recordings cut in LA.
However she is clearly mistaken/ confused as to what recordings she is on. Apparently she kept a 'diary' listing her work.
Unfortunately ,in relation to her claims to be on classic 'Motown Hits' the recordings she quotes are cover versions [[ eg Supremes a go-go) , NOT the original hit records.
She clearly recorded tracks on many Motown artists...but these tracks are lp tracks and projects like DRATS Disney, Christmas...MOR sets etc.
The problem is that her incorrect insistence that she os on the hit versions had brought upon herself ridicule, anger and some abuse.
Now...is she just confused or deliberately making false claims .
By making these claims, despite all evidence to the contrary, she has brought unwarranted claims about Jamerson's legacy. That has brought reprisals.
IMO she is confused and in error.
Sadly this is a case of "if the truth clashes with the myth...print the myth'

[WaitingWatchingLookingForAChance]

This topic is being discussed on another forum.
It is clear to me that Carol Kaye is very talented and played on many great recordings.
It is also clear that she is on many Motown recordings cut in LA.
However she is clearly mistaken/ confused as to what recordings she is on. Apparently she kept a 'diary' listing her work.
Unfortunately ,in relation to her claims to be on classic 'Motown Hits' the recordings she quotes are cover versions [[ eg Supremes a go-go) , NOT the original hit records.
She clearly recorded tracks on many Motown artists...but these tracks are lp tracks and projects like DRATS Disney, Christmas...MOR sets etc.
The problem is that her incorrect insistence that she os on the hit versions had brought upon herself ridicule, anger and some abuse.
Now...is she just confused or deliberately making false claims .
By making these claims, despite all evidence to the contrary, she has brought unwarranted claims about Jamerson's legacy. That has brought reprisals.
IMO she is confused and in error.
Sadly this is a case of "if the truth clashes with the myth...print the myth'

I think I like Carol. I want to like Carol. I certainly respect her as a musician. So I want to believe she is just confusing herself about what tracks she's played on. The Easy way to verify her claims, you'd think, would have been to have her play those iconic bass lines when this initially started and see if she actually COULD play those lines.

As fas as being confused about her own work, it reminds me of something that happened to friends of mine once. The wife saw a picture of her husband with another woman. He denied it over and over until she blew sky high. She demanded to know how he could sit there and deny it. He took out a magnifying glass and had her look at the picture again. The other woman was no other woman. It was her. Wearing an outfit she forgot she even owned.

See how the mind can trick us?

[StuBass1]

The thing about CK is that at some point, she realized that it was not her on the classic recordings, and instead of "fading gracefully" she doubled down without even realizing that the songs she played on [[if at all) were not the original recordings that were released to the radio stations and the public... They could have been demos or different arrangements for TV or covers for other artists or whatever...but she was a guitar and bass player earning more than she probably ever imagined in those days during the 60's & 70's and didn't really understand the business, and likely just remembered song titles, sessions, and on to the next...CK was a very good player and a very busy West Coast session player... It's always been fairly easy for me to decipher the bass player on the primary hits she claimed credit on [[Bernadette, I Was Made To Love Her being the main two)...but a close listen indicates that the bass on those tracks were played fingerstyle...Carol played with a plectrum, and a pick, no matter how they hide it, has a slightly more "clicky" sound versus fingers... She also claimed credit on her discography on a couple otherwise recognized as Joe Osborn tracks, and obviously, I'm inclined to take Joes word over hers...Finally, I've heard interviews and read articles where she absolutely disrespected the memory of James Jamerson, bringing forth things we all now know and people back then also realized, that James was going through some personal difficulties and challenges, however, Kaye seemed to bring that up and just toss it out there when pressed on the issue of credit on the songs...Actually, last I heard, CK was living in a Senior Retirement Center somewhere in my community... No plans to stop in for a visit though... Wish her peace in her advancing years...

[snakepit]

That is the problem here.
Nobody doubts her talent and all acknowledge that she played on many hits.
Also, she recorded many tracks for Motown [[ most went unissued, or ended up on albums. Her " big hits" are very few...a handful).

Her repeated false claims have brought ridicule and negative comments about her, mainly from Motown employess who were rightly angered by her dismissals of Jamerson, and the idea that Motown was fooling the public.
She has turned this around...to claim that SHE is the victim, whereas she brought this problem onto herself.
Now the myth....the conspiracy..takes over, rather than the truth.
She has turned it into a man bites dog stry