Mirror Mirror- your thoughts

[WaitingWatchingLookingForAChance]

So please forgive if this song has been discussed before, but I've always wondered how others felt about this one. I could not explain for the life of me why, but this one has always been a favorite. In general, I'm one of those bullheaded folks who seems to be stuck only on 60's Motown/60's Diana Ross. But this one really captured my soul. I wouldn't even say it's representative of Diana's best 80's work [[but maybe others will say I'm wrong. I'll happily eat plenty of crow!) Maybe it's because this song came out during an especially happy time in my teenage years. They were playing this night and day in Houston, Texas at the time so I heard it a lot and loved it instantly. So what are your thoughts about this one?

[JohnnyB]

So please forgive if this song has been discussed before, but I've always wondered how others felt about this one. I could not explain for the life of me why, but this one has always been a favorite. In general, I'm one of those bullheaded folks who seems to be stuck only on 60's Motown/60's Diana Ross. But this one really captured my soul. I wouldn't even say it's representative of Diana's best 80's work [[but maybe others will say I'm wrong. I'll happily eat plenty of crow!) Maybe it's because this song came out during an especially happy time in my teenage years. They were playing this night and day in Houston, Texas at the time so I heard it a lot and loved it instantly. So what are your thoughts about this one?

I immediately loved Mirror, Mirror from the first time I played the WDFFIL album; it was the standout track for me. And Diana always rocked this song in concert in the eighties. BTW, it was also being played night and day in Dallas...

[daviddh]

I loved it and it was kind of cool hearing Diana singing rock....at least since you keep me hanging on

[reese]

One of the best songs from her RCA years and definitely a standout on that WDFFIL album. I knew it would be a hit the first time I heard it. She doesn't perform it in concert often nowadays and I miss it. Her performance of it in Central Park was one of her best that day.

[Circa 1824]

I never loved Mirror Mirror.

Also, “knew how she felt, same as me,”....... for years and years I thought she said “A new Chevette, same as me.”

[WaitingWatchingLookingForAChance]

I immediately loved Mirror, Mirror from the first time I played the WDFFIL album; it was the standout track for me. And Diana always rocked this song in concert in the eighties. BTW, it was also being played night and day in Dallas...

Good to know I'm in good company on this one! I never tire of listening to it! Also didn't know she did this in her concerts.

[JohnnyB]

Good to know I'm in good company on this one! I never tire of listening to it! Also didn't know she did this in her concerts.

Mirror, Mirror typically closed the first act of Diana’s eighties concerts, with the band continuing the groove as Diana exited the stage leaving the audience up, dancing and ready for more. Search YouTube for the Central Park Mirror, Mirror performance and you’ll get a good idea...

[Albator]

This is a great song, great lyrics and great performance by Diana. She did it like a crazy woman in CP, I love how she treated her microphone badly.

The single cut could have been better produced

[rovereab]

I have always liked the song but felt that it would have been improved by being a bit more up tempo.

A great vocal performance by Diana though!

[Ollie9]

I remember reading a review where they said the songs was just a hair to slow. I think it went well with the new image Diana was trying to create at the time, eager to reveal a more raunchy persona.
From a personal perspective il think it rather boring, although one of the better songs from a rather uninspiring album.

[Rafalle]

At the time the WDFFIL album was not well received. Coming straight after the wonderful ballads of late 80, early 81, « It’s My Turn » and « Endless Love », the first two singles, « Why Do Fools » and « Mirror Mirror », couldn’t have been worse. A cheesy cover and a silly pop rock effort. But everyone accepted that she had had to put something, anything out, with only three months to do it [[June 81, when she signed the RCA deal and September, when she was obliged to hand over the masters and cover art). If she had followed it up with something properly produced, by either Michael Jackson or Quincy Jones, all would have been forgiven. Little did we know, she had decided that the days of a man telling her what to do in the studio were over!

[jim aka jtigre99]

One of my favorite songs of Ross' RCA years. She sings the song very well with a strong voice, some of her songs in the RCA years were not as a good and her voice could sound muddy and muted in the mix[[like Muscles). Very exciting song. It could perhaps be slightly tweaked but nonetheless one of her better efforts during that period, reminiscent of No One Gets The Prize a few years earlier in how she attacks it vocally. I liked the song.

[benross]

The lyrics stink. They are too abstruse and pretentious. How does a mirror convert someone's life into a paperback novel? How does a mirror nail someone's heart to the wall? I don't understand or relate to whatever it is the lyrics describe. Maybe the composer had just listened to The Beatles' Paperback Writer or just read Oscar Wilde's The Portrait of Dorian Gray. Maybe the composer was angry and embarrassed, having just slipped on a banana peel in full view of the town's know-it-all. Maybe the composer's next-door neighbor complained that she missed seeing that tumble as her eyes are old and tired. It's a compendium of random nothingness and clumsy cliche. If the composer happened to have had an eggplant calzone for lunch, there may have been mention of Humpty Dumpty's cracked shell. If that morning another of the composer's neighbors had tossed out trash including a week-old bouquet from her beau, the composer might have tossed off a line about tears cascading like dead rose petals down someone's withered cheeks. If the composer had had no deadline to meet, that paperback novel might have had more than two chapters. Whatever. On a positive note, there is no mention of long entropic nights.

[Circa 1824]

The lyrics stink. On a positive note, there is no mention of long entropic nights.

lololololololol

[Bluebrock]

I remember reading a review where they said the songs was just a hair to slow. I think it went well with the new image Diana was trying to create at the time, eager to reveal a more raunchy persona.
From a personal perspective il think it rather boring, although one of the better songs from a rather uninspiring album.
It's a decent song but no classic. The album itself was very mediocre, and it stands to reason any decent song on such a bland album would stand out somewhat. It certainly would not get anywhere near my top 50 favorite Ross songs.

[Bluebrock]

At the time the WDFFIL album was not well received. Coming straight after the wonderful ballads of late 80, early 81, « It’s My Turn » and « Endless Love », the first two singles, « Why Do Fools » and « Mirror Mirror », couldn’t have been worse. A cheesy cover and a silly pop rock effort. But everyone accepted that she had had to put something, anything out, with only three months to do it [[June 81, when she signed the RCA deal and September, when she was obliged to hand over the masters and cover art). If she had followed it up with something properly produced, by either Michael Jackson or Quincy Jones, all would have been forgiven. Little did we know, she had decided that the days of a man telling her what to do in the studio were over!
RCA should have given her more time with the album. Quincy was pencilled in to produce it, but delays in finishing Patti Austin's Every Home Should Have One meant he was unable to reach the deadline demanded by RCA. The whole album was a rush job, and that's why it turned out so dull and turgid along with it's equally unsatisfying follow up Silk Electric.

[Ollie9]

It's a decent song but no classic. The album itself was very mediocre, and it stands to reason any decent song on such a bland album would stand out somewhat. It certainly would not get anywhere near my top 50 favorite Ross songs.

Mine neither Bluebrock. Perhaps 51 lol.
I suppose the song proved useful in providing a complete change of pace during live performances.
Diana’s voice sounds strong and assured on the recording, but for for me it’s just a ‘tad to slow to create any real excitement. Other then her performance on the Carson show, i find she often shouts her way through the song.
Have you any ideas what happened on the Carson show?. It appeared to me she was trying so very hard to assimilate a rock chick persona that she totally forgot about song lyrics.

[reese]

Other then her performance on the Carson show, i find she often shouts her way through the song.
Have you any ideas what happened on the Carson show?. It appeared to me she was trying so very hard to assimilate a rock chick persona that she totally forgot about song lyrics.

On Carson, I think she was just unprepared and forgot the lyrics, as sometimes happens. She repeated some lines, did a few shimmys, and made it through. But I will say that I watched it with some folks who didn't know the lyrics and until I pointed it out, they really couldn't tell she messed up.

It was rather fascinating to watch her during this period. She totally reinvented herself. I almost couldn't believe this was the same woman who was singing BIG MABLE MURPHY seven years earlier.

That said, I still think the best performance of the song was at Central Park. IMO, the show had sort of hit a lull at that point, with the long LADY SINGS THE BLUES segment. When she started MIRROR, MIRROR, the energy level changed and it seemed that she was really feeling the lyrics. The mike toss at the end was classic.

[sup_fan]

i like her first two RCA efforts, somewhat. I enjoy the albums and many of the songs but realize 1) some of the productions needed a revamp and 2) agree these aren't groundbreaking albums and are lackluster when launching a new career with a new label.

that said, I think Mirror is a very strong track and holds up very well. What she needed in order to make a truly remarkable album for her debut was a new and exciting sound. I think a bit more of a rock sound would have worked beautifully and been so on trend for the 80s. but it needed her sophistication and polish.

each year she had come up with something totally new and different from before: 1979 The Boss was sophisticated glamorous gospel-infused disco, 1980 the Chic set was sophisticated steely-cool urban, 1981 saw her with sophisticated lush mega-ballads.

So here we're about to enter 1982

I think the backing track to Work That Body was hot and the title could have been so sexy, provided the lyrics weren't the silly nonsense we got. And Mirror Mirror was cold and sexy. i think she could have done more with that sound and approach

[Bluebrock]

Mine neither Bluebrock. Perhaps 51 lol.
I suppose the song proved useful in providing a complete change of pace during live performances.
Diana’s voice sounds strong and assured on the recording, but for for me it’s just a ‘tad to slow to create any real excitement. Other then her performance on the Carson show, i find she often shouts her way through the song.
Have you any ideas what happened on the Carson show?. It appeared to me she was trying so very hard to assimilate a rock chick persona that she totally forgot about song lyrics.

The Carson performance was prior to me getting involved with her so i have no inside knowledge. I think she was just so busy around this time and perhaps had insufficient time to rehearse. Her tv performances were usually very well rehearsed. When i was with her she would rehearse for several hours before the taping of the show took place. She always took it in her stride and never got nervous prior to recording, whereas i was often a nervous wreck. She would say something along the lines of "if i cannot get it right after all these years i may as well retire and go and live on a desert island". Her professionalism was breathtaking.

[sup_fan]

I also think it would be very interesting to have the recording and studio dates for all of the Why and Silk tracks. Many fans find the later DRATS albums to be too much of a hodge podge but many, if not most, of the songs are actually fairly strong. but when they're dumped together without and regard to a sound or approach, you get the mish mash of Cream of Crop, Reflections and Sunshine. I'd even put LC in there although i'll admit the overall song quality on LC is better so it does make it a bit more enjoyable.

Anyway, you might be able to re-package Why and Silk and re-arrange the song linesups and you might have some stronger sets. of course i'm ignoring the poorly produced and lazily sung vocals.

[WaitingWatchingLookingForAChance]

One of my favorite songs of Ross' RCA years. She sings the song very well with a strong voice, some of her songs in the RCA years were not as a good and her voice could sound muddy and muted in the mix[[like Muscles). Very exciting song. It could perhaps be slightly tweaked but nonetheless one of her better efforts during that period, reminiscent of No One Gets The Prize a few years earlier in how she attacks it vocally. I liked the song.

When you say the song could have been tweaked, I think that is one of the reasons I find myself asking for opinions on this. There are songs that just "have it right" from the music, vocals and mix. Everything perfect. "Mirror Mirror" for me is like a song that maybe isn't perfect in every way; can't put your finger on it but like you said, you feel it could have been done just a weeee bit better. Still, I love this song to pieces.

[WaitingWatchingLookingForAChance]

It's a decent song but no classic. The album itself was very mediocre, and it stands to reason any decent song on such a bland album would stand out somewhat. It certainly would not get anywhere near my top 50 favorite Ross songs.

And that's the thing about it. Not a classic and yet oddly it grabbed my attention. I wouldn't say it's an all-time favorite but I always end up playing this a few times in a row.

I really like reading everyone's opinion on this song. One of those rare times that someone could tell me they hate the song and it wouldn't bother me. [[That is SO not like me lol!)

[Circa 1824]

The Carson show appearance made me uncomfortable to watch. My recollection was she was trying too hard and was a bit manic. Her clothes were horrible .... nothing of the former glamorous Ross.

She lost much of the glamour chic from her Motown years. She looked hard and bizarre on certain RCA album covers. Chalk all this up to her zero willingness to hire the right people and trust their judgment. I’ll say it again, she forgot what made her famous in the first place. She falsely believed it was all about her.

[sup_fan]

keep in mind though, that she was largely instrumental to the revolutionary look of the Supremes. she was always fascinated by high fashion and glamor. But she certainly didn't have a traditional "black" look, given how incredibly thin she was and her angular features.

and meanwhile, there were not blacks in Vogue or on the runways. As Randy mentions in his books, she essentially created her own look and it became an iconic image of the 60s. the ultra glam DRATS look too was largely her doing. her excessive fashion imagination being developed

then in the early to mid 70s, she evolved multiple times - glamorous solo star, movie star, new mother

by the mid 70s it was sort of back to the excesses of the DRATS era but now as a solo star. clowns and dancers and mimes and jugglers and sequins and excess. this was extreme Bob Mackie. and both she and bob has an excessive glam aesthetic.

starting with The Boss she striped away the bugle beads and the marabou feathers. the album images [[and the unreleased alt images) show a more down to earth sophistication. she expanded this with diana 80. she was an 80s woman - still beautiful but less Vegas-y and more no-nonsense.

so by 81 and 82 she's once again looking at fashion forward and playing with boundaries. that weird jumpsuit is one interpretation of this.

[Rafalle]

It was one of her first live TV performances after she left Motown. With no Berry there, notepad in hand to jot down all his corrections, it looks like she didn’t rehearse the lyrics, didn’t choreograph her moves, but DID have a couple too many glasses of champagne. She was, effectively, a teenager, away from home for the first time.

[sansradio]

But she certainly didn't have a traditional "black" look, given how incredibly thin she was and her angular features.

Wait...what??? What is a "traditional '[B]lack' look"?

[khansperac]

so by 81 and 82 she's once again looking at fashion forward and playing with boundaries. that weird jumpsuit is one interpretation of this.

If you are referring to that black catsuit she wore on the Carson show- that was hot hot hot. She was giving sexy superstar rockstar. Young divas of today, are wearing what Diana was wearing 40 years ago.

Back to the song, I like the live version tempo more than the recorded version. Almost how I like the live version tempo of “I ain’t been licked” over the recorded version. But I still have no problem with the recorded versions. If anyone doubts how much the song was liked, just watch the audience in Central Park. They loved it. I just heard this song on the radio the other day. It is a Diana Ross 80’s classic.

[sup_fan]

Wait...what??? What is a "traditional '[B]lack' look"?

i'm referring to the cliche that has been described multiple times in multiple books. Diana was bone thin versus a more curvy and voluptuous look. Same with the revolutionary look of Twiggy in the 60s versus the more Marilyn Monroe curves.

Also Diana quickly picked up on many of the fashion forward elements of the time, like crazy heavy eye makeup. Or the mega wigs and dark, dark eyebrows popularized by Annette Funicello and others. There were next to 0 high profile black models at the time and most designers were not use blacks in their runways or in their photo spreads. Of course some black publications were but generally those ads utilized a very MOR look.

Diana, Flo and Mary frankly were the first [[or among the very first) where the general public noticed their glamorous looks, began to anticipate what they'd wear next and would adapt their looks accordingly.

[sansradio]

i'm referring to the cliche that has been described multiple times in multiple books. Diana was bone thin versus a more curvy and voluptuous look. Same with the revolutionary look of Twiggy in the 60s versus the more Marilyn Monroe curves.

I see. Well, that’s a slippery slope. I didn’t get a sense of “cliché” from the way you phrased it. Surely you didn’t mean to suggest that the African diaspora, with its close to 3,000 tribes and millennia of intermixing, has a distinct body type or set of features.

As for the revolutionary nature of Diana’s appearance, she was by no means among the first in the public eye who influenced fashion or style. Joséphine [[who sparked an international and multicultural rage of copycats with her hairstyle and body type)? Lena? Dorothy? Diahann? Not to be combative, just food for thought.

[sup_fan]

I see. Well, that’s a slippery slope. I didn’t get a sense of “cliché” from the way you phrased it. Surely you didn’t mean to suggest that the African diaspora, with its close to 3,000 tribes and millennia of intermixing, has a distinct body type or set of features.

As for the revolutionary nature of Diana’s appearance, she was by no means among the first in the public eye who influenced fashion or style. Joséphine [[who sparked an international and multicultural rage of copycats with her hairstyle and body type)? Lena? Dorothy? Diahann? Not to be combative, just food for thought.

open up the different books by Randy. in a nutshell he describes the fact that diana didn't nearly match up with the more traditional "tits and ass" look as Flo or some of the other women at motown.

I agree it's a slippery slope and my intention isn't to broadly stereotype black women or what their definitions of beauty were at the time. it was more to highlight how Diana was always redefining standards in her own way.

And you're right about other leading black women that were blazing a trail ahead of her. But Diana was the first that was truly nationwide in the US. Josephine had to leave the US to really emerge and the fabulous star she deserved to be. Lena and Dorothy were shamelessly overlooked by Hollywood. all three of these women were marvelously talented, glamorous and gorgeous but during those decades prior to the mid 60s, they were simply not given the visibility across general America as the supremes did later. So they may have [[especially Josephine) done some revolutionary things and pushed fashion boundaries. But their impact was limited compared to Diana's.

to put it bluntly, fans, teens and people across America were not racing to catch when they'd be on Ed Sullivan next so that they could see "what on earth will she look like now"

[sansradio]

open up the different books by Randy. in a nutshell he describes the fact that diana didn't nearly match up with the more traditional "tits and ass" look as Flo or some of the other women at motown.

I agree it's a slippery slope and my intention isn't to broadly stereotype black women or what their definitions of beauty were at the time. it was more to highlight how Diana was always redefining standards in her own way.

And you're right about other leading black women that were blazing a trail ahead of her. But Diana was the first that was truly nationwide in the US. Josephine had to leave the US to really emerge and the fabulous star she deserved to be. Lena and Dorothy were shamelessly overlooked by Hollywood. all three of these women were marvelously talented, glamorous and gorgeous but during those decades prior to the mid 60s, they were simply not given the visibility across general America as the supremes did later. So they may have [[especially Josephine) done some revolutionary things and pushed fashion boundaries. But their impact was limited compared to Diana's.

to put it bluntly, fans, teens and people across America were not racing to catch when they'd be on Ed Sullivan next so that they could see "what on earth will she look like now"

Thanks for this thoughtful response and lively discussion! I'd argue that among Black American communities [[especially femme/queer cohorts), the impact that Diana's forerunners had [[forgot to mention Eartha!) was pretty seismic. Your point about their mainstream acceptance compared to Diana's is well taken, though.

[sup_fan]

Thanks for this thoughtful response and lively discussion! I'd argue that among Black American communities [[especially femme/queer cohorts), the impact that Diana's forerunners had [[forgot to mention Eartha!) was pretty seismic. Your point about their mainstream acceptance compared to Diana's is well taken, though.

i love these discussions too! :) the only challenge is making sure people read your posts with the same inflections and all that you're thinking as you type it. it's hard to always interpret things

Oh and you're absolutely correct about the influence these ladies like Eartha, Etta, Josephine and more had. While i've not studied them or immersed myself in their history like have had the Sups, my opinion is that Dorothy and Lena were presenting a more typically "hollywood" image - a starlet so to speak. Josephine created something a bit more unique which her lavish stage presentations. So if i were to compare, i'd maybe put what Diana was doing more inline with what Josephine did, mostly due to the sheer originality of it. again, lena and dorothy were wonderful but maybe following more of the trends rather than breaking out into their own.

but again, i'm not super familiar with all of their work

[vgalindo]

I love “Mirror Mirror”. One of my favorites. And I thought she looked super hot on the Carson show!

[Ollie9]

The Carson show appearance made me uncomfortable to watch. My recollection was she was trying too hard and was a bit manic..

An honest assessment of which I agree with. Much of it made for uncomfortable viewing.

[Ollie9]

The Carson performance was prior to me getting involved with her so i have no inside knowledge. I think she was just so busy around this time and perhaps had insufficient time to rehearse. Her tv performances were usually very well rehearsed. When i was with her she would rehearse for several hours before the taping of the show took place. She always took it in her stride and never got nervous prior to recording, whereas i was often a nervous wreck. She would say something along the lines of "if i cannot get it right after all these years i may as well retire and go and live on a desert island". Her professionalism was breathtaking.

Thats reassuring to know. The song was never particularly popular here in the UK. Even with Diana at her popularity peak it only managed 36. In fact It did only marginally better then “So Close” which alone is quite telling.
On the plus side, I think Diana did a good job in reinventing herself. Her body was in great shape and those sexy catsuits showed it off to full affect. It’s just a shame the Carson performance of “Mirror” ended up so shambolic.

[Bluebrock]

Thats reassuring to know. The song was never particularly popular here in the UK. Even with Diana at her popularity peak it only managed 36. In fact It did only marginally better then “So Close” which alone is quite telling.
On the plus side, I think Diana did a good job in reinventing herself. Her body was in great shape and those sexy catsuits showed it off to full affect. It’s just a shame the Carson performance of “Mirror” ended up so shambolic.

I shall have to watch the Carson appearance. It is a long time since i last viewed it. I cannot even recall the quality of the performance. She worked damned hard to keep in shape. In fact i would say she was the hardest working star i ever worked with. She certainly put the likes of Mariah and Whitney to shame when it came to rehearsing and behaving in a professional manner.

[Ollie9]

I shall have to watch the Carson appearance. It is a long time since i last viewed it. I cannot even recall the quality of the performance. She worked damned hard to keep in shape. In fact i would say she was the hardest working star i ever worked with. She certainly put the likes of Mariah and Whitney to shame when it came to rehearsing and behaving in a professional manner.

How would you say her work ethic compares with that of Streisand’s Bluebrock?.

[Bluebrock]

How would you say her work ethic compares with that of Streisand’s Bluebrock?.

Fairly similar. Barbra is not comfortable singing on stage. She was very nervous before taking to the stage at Hyde Park which surprised me. Diana is the total opposite. She loves performing live whereas Barbra prefers the recording studio, but both ladies take their art very seriously indeed. Other artists would turn up [[ or would not turn up in some cases) and be totally unprepared. Diana and Barbra were in a different class.

[jobeterob]

That’s what I would have expected

[Ollie9]

Fairly similar. Barbra is not comfortable singing on stage. She was very nervous before taking to the stage at Hyde Park which surprised me. Diana is the total opposite. She loves performing live whereas Barbra prefers the recording studio, but both ladies take their art very seriously indeed. Other artists would turn up [[ or would not turn up in some cases) and be totally unprepared. Diana and Barbra were in a different class.

As a lifelong Diana fan that’s comforting to hear.
Through my ex i have previously met industry peeps who have worked with Bab’s and have never heard any negatives about her.
Could it be that during the early 80’s Diana’s increased focus on making money led to a temporary drop in standards?.. The Carson performance, first two RCA albums, Gary Katz recollections of recording ross 83 and the fact that “Missing You” was considered unfinished suggest that could be the case.

[Bluebrock]

As a lifelong Diana fan that’s comforting to hear.
Through my ex i have previously met industry peeps who have worked with Bab’s and have never heard any negatives about her.
Could it be that during the early 80’s Diana’s increased focus on making money led to a temporary drop in standards?.. The Carson performance, first two RCA albums, Gary Katz recollections of recording ross 83 and the fact that “Missing You” was considered unfinished suggest that could be the case.

Perhaps you have a point. I think she only found the inner peace and happiness she craved when she became Mrs Arne in 86 was it? I first met her in 88 and she radiated happiness. Prior to that i was told she was rather difficult to say the least. I witnessed a few memorable tantrums but nothing too serious until the marriage hit the buffers. She treated me with kindness and respect, and was especially loyal and understanding when my son passed away very suddenly. I will never forget her kindness and friendship at that time. Her critics are not at all interested in hearing about her acts of kindness. She is a remarkable lady in many ways, and even now i would do anything for her.
I don't claim to know Barbra anywhere near as well, but that one week i spent in her company was very memorable, and it was memorable for only positive reasons. Two truly inspiring ladies. I adore them both.

[Ollie9]

Perhaps you have a point. I think she only found the inner peace and happiness she craved when she became Mrs Arne in 86 was it? I first met her in 88 and she radiated happiness. Prior to that i was told she was rather difficult to say the least. I witnessed a few memorable tantrums but nothing too serious until the marriage hit the buffers. She treated me with kindness and respect, and was especially loyal and understanding when my son passed away very suddenly. I will never forget her kindness and friendship at that time. Her critics are not at all interested in hearing about her acts of kindness. She is a remarkable lady in many ways, and even now i would do anything for her.
I don't claim to know Barbra anywhere near as well, but that one week i spent in her company was very memorable, and it was memorable for only positive reasons. Two truly inspiring ladies. I adore them both.

That really is a heart warming post Bluebrock. I’m kinda the same. Even if a person is proving difficult, i never forget a past kindness.
You only have to look at photos from that period to see how happy and in love she was. Diana herself has been honest in mentioning before that at one stage she became big headed. Perhaps it’s the 81 - 86 period she refers to. Funnily enough that coincides with my least favourite period of her career.

[sup_fan]

Perhaps you have a point. I think she only found the inner peace and happiness she craved when she became Mrs Arne in 86 was it? I first met her in 88 and she radiated happiness. Prior to that i was told she was rather difficult to say the least. I witnessed a few memorable tantrums but nothing too serious until the marriage hit the buffers. She treated me with kindness and respect, and was especially loyal and understanding when my son passed away very suddenly. I will never forget her kindness and friendship at that time. Her critics are not at all interested in hearing about her acts of kindness. She is a remarkable lady in many ways, and even now i would do anything for her.
I don't claim to know Barbra anywhere near as well, but that one week i spent in her company was very memorable, and it was memorable for only positive reasons. Two truly inspiring ladies. I adore them both.

wonderful memories that you shared Blue. one thing i enjoyed in Randy's latest book was several of these touching stories by employees of moments of extreme care and support. It appears that she does know her close associates lives and what's going on [[good and bad) in them. she isn't this cold and totally self-absorbed diva. it's a shame more of these lovely stories aren't aired more

[Rafalle]

It’s a real shame. Those « biographies » fixed her temperament as a bitch, as far as the general public were concerned. But hopefully now there is a whole new younger generation who see her as, primarily, a legendary performer who walked away from the Hollywood A list to concentrate on raising five lovely children.

[Levi Stubbs Tears]

Mirror Mirror is certainly one of the tracks that I would be keeping if I could go back in time and hypnotize Diana into getting proper producers to helm her RCA albums.

Even without the time-travelling, I'd much prefer this song to be in her live sets than 'why do fools fall in love'.

[khansperac]

Mirror remained in her shows till the late 90’s/ early 2000’s. She revisited the song last year at her birthday concert I believe.

[Albator]

I like her Tonight show appearance.
It's just that she forgot the words, but it was perfectly rehearsed.
It's also obvious she was more interested in showing her outfits and her body than anything else. And she did it very well.
When she exits the studio set, it's a pure glamorous moment

[khansperac]

When she exits the studio set, it's a pure glamorous moment

That’s my favorite moment. Such a superstar moment. She worked that. As far as the performance, shit happens sometimes. It was a new song, she forgot the words. No biggie. We should be talking about her legendary performance of that song in Central Park. It was an outstanding performance.

[PeaceNHarmony]

Fairly similar. Barbra is not comfortable singing on stage. She was very nervous before taking to the stage at Hyde Park which surprised me. Diana is the total opposite. She loves performing live whereas Barbra prefers the recording studio, but both ladies take their art very seriously indeed. Other artists would turn up [[ or would not turn up in some cases) and be totally unprepared. Diana and Barbra were in a different class.Yes, indeed they are. And when all the rivers of bile finally run dry the truth will remain - that Streisand and Ross dominated those around them as a result of talent, readiness and determination.

[Bluebrock]

Yes, indeed they are. And when all the rivers of bile finally run dry the truth will remain - that Streisand and Ross dominated those around them as a result of talent, readiness and determination.
For sure! There are many great female singers out there that have/had talent but did not think it necessary to put the work ethic in, and there are a great many others who were less gifted talent wise, but had a wonderful work ethic. There are very few who had that almost unique combination of both. Maybe Dionne Warwick and possibly Gladys Knight are the only possibilities that immediately spring to mind.

[Ollie9]

Yes, indeed they are. And when all the rivers of bile finally run dry the truth will remain - that Streisand and Ross dominated those around them as a result of talent, readiness and determination.

And whoever doth speak a word against Diana Ross shall be cast into the fiery furnace to remain unforgiven in this age and the age to come. The testament of truth shall finally be revealed.
Bottom line being, any Ross fans who consider her less then perfect better watch out. :mad:

[sup_fan]

And whoever doth speak a word against Diana Ross shall be cast into the fiery furnace to remain unforgiven in this age and the age to come. The testament of truth shall finally be revealed.
Bottom line being, any Ross fans who consider her less then perfect better watch out. :mad:

lol no Ollie - you have to give us SOME leeway in order to discuss her 80s material ;)

but i agree, personal shots on Miss Ross are not appropriate

[Bluebrock]

lol no Ollie - you have to give us SOME leeway in order to discuss her 80s material ;)

but i agree, personal shots on Miss Ross are not appropriate
We can criticise her music until the cows come home. Much of her 80's output deserves nothing less, but i think people's perspectives have changed over the past few months. The world is in turmoil, and we all have a duty to be kinder and more considerate. That can be the only way forward. Ralph took swift and appropriate action at Monica Carver's tasteless post the other day which was welcomed by the vast majority of members on here. That was a hugely positive step forward and i think the forum will prove to be a most pleasant diversion from the worries and problems we are all enduring at the moment. Onwards and upwards!

[Ollie9]

but i agree, personal shots on Miss Ross are not appropriate

Would personal shots include not liking a particular performance sup?. Of course not. We all have our likes and dislikes. It’s what makes things fun and interesting. :D
I just find it a ‘tad annoying when someone tries to put others down for having contrasting opinions. It’s been proven to shut down threads and chase fans off faster then you can say M’s Ross.
As was once pointed out by another poster. “You can be a fan without having to worship in the church of Diana”. The majority of fans appreciate this which is why the DR&S forum has been a much happier place of late.
As Diana once proclaimed “It’s all for one....and one for all”.

[Bluebrock]

Would personal shots include not liking a particular performance sup?. Of course not. We all have our likes and dislikes. It’s what makes things fun and interesting. :D
I just find it a ‘tad annoying when someone tries to put others down for having contrasting opinions. It’s been proven to shut down threads and chase fans off faster then you can say M’s Ross.
As was once pointed out by another poster. “You can be a fan without having to worship in the church of Diana”. The majority of fans appreciate this which is why the DR&S forum has been a much happier place of late.
As Diana once proclaimed “It’s all for one....and one for all”.

I could find fault with much of her 80's music and have not attempted to hide that in the past. I have also been critical of some of her actions and decisions. I love her many indiscretions. It makes me respect her all the more. I think Sup Fan was referring to personal and uncalled for attacks on her personal appearance and her family. It is perfectly fine to criticise a sub standard performance, or a ghastly song that she should never have recorded. Anything akin to that is fine and makes for a lively discussion, but we must leave the gutter stuff in the gutter where it belongs, and that goes for any performer, not just Diana.

[sup_fan]

Would personal shots include not liking a particular performance sup?. Of course not. We all have our likes and dislikes. It’s what makes things fun and interesting. :D
I just find it a ‘tad annoying when someone tries to put others down for having contrasting opinions. It’s been proven to shut down threads and chase fans off faster then you can say M’s Ross.
As was once pointed out by another poster. “You can be a fan without having to worship in the church of Diana”. The majority of fans appreciate this which is why the DR&S forum has been a much happier place of late.
As Diana once proclaimed “It’s all for one....and one for all”.

exactly - i'm all for respectful and intelligent dialog about what we do and don't like regarding their careers. i welcome the opposing viewpoints and find it great fun to hear differing opinions.

[Ollie9]

We can criticise her music until the cows come home. Much of her 80's output deserves nothing less, but i think people's perspectives have changed over the past few months. The world is in turmoil, and we all have a duty to be kinder and more considerate. That can be the only way forward. Ralph took swift and appropriate action at Monica Carver's tasteless post the other day which was welcomed by the vast majority of members on here. That was a hugely positive step forward and i think the forum will prove to be a most pleasant diversion from the worries and problems we are all enduring at the moment. Onwards and upwards!

Absolutely, i couldn’t agree more. To be perfectly honest i’m a little confused as to why we are even discussing such points. As far as I’m aware, up until the “rivers of bile crack”from the usual suspect this had been a perfectly civilised discussion lol.

[sup_fan]

i missed this Monica drama. not sure what happened but sounds exciting!! lol

so back to the original topic here

Mirror Mirror - i think the general consensus is that it's a fairly good DR song. maybe a few adjustments could have helped

my question is, do you think this was a new "sound" that could have been further developed on the launch lp for her new label? was this something that could have been worth of the debut?

[Ollie9]

Mirror Mirror - i think the general consensus is that it's a fairly good DR song. maybe a few adjustments could have helped

my question is, do you think this was a new "sound" that could have been further developed on the launch lp for her new label? was this something that could have been worth of the debut?

Quite possibly. I’m not crazy on the song, but Mirror Mirror” for me was most certainly one of the better songs on the album. I would rather there had been more songs of that genre then pop fluff such as ”Two Can Make It” or “It’s Never To Late”. It would have been a risky move to suddenly devote herself completely to rock/funk but who knows.

[sup_fan]

now i kinda like It's Never Too Late lol. but it is fluff. Two Can Make It is kinda useless.

here's an idea for the album:

1. a more rock version of WDFFIL - give it a bit more of an edge, reinterpret it and make it more exciting, harder
2. sweet surrender - as is
3. mirror mirror - i say keep as is, unless you want to do a longer lp version vs the 45
4. sweet nothings - i like this one! lolol i know others don't but it's fun and funky
5. work that body - keep the track and the title but make it not aerobic. make it steamy and sexy. a DIFFERENT kind of working that body lol
6. Think i'm in love - i say keep as is

Endless Love, two can make it and never too late - i guess ditch these. unless Never could somehow be reworked into less disco/pop and more pop/rock

then you need to get a couple new songs. I think a big power rock ballad and another pop/rock tune.

[Bluebrock]

now i kinda like It's Never Too Late lol. but it is fluff. Two Can Make It is kinda useless.

here's an idea for the album:

1. a more rock version of WDFFIL - give it a bit more of an edge, reinterpret it and make it more exciting, harder
2. sweet surrender - as is
3. mirror mirror - i say keep as is, unless you want to do a longer lp version vs the 45
4. sweet nothings - i like this one! lolol i know others don't but it's fun and funky
5. work that body - keep the track and the title but make it not aerobic. make it steamy and sexy. a DIFFERENT kind of working that body lol
6. Think i'm in love - i say keep as is

Endless Love, two can make it and never too late - i guess ditch these. unless Never could somehow be reworked into less disco/pop and more pop/rock

then you need to get a couple new songs. I think a big power rock ballad and another pop/rock tune.
Keep Sweet Nothings? Oh hell no! It's truly awful and in my all time bottom 5 of Ross songs. Sadly she liked it. She is a big fan of Brenda Lee and i think it would have been included even if Quincy had been at the helm. I like most of your other ideas for the album. Work that body could have worked had it been given a more sexy and funky approach. Even Two can make it and it's never too late could have turned out well had better production and arranging been utilised, but the solo Endless Love should not have made the cut. Singing it solo on stage is one thing, but she should have left the studio version at the front door and closed it firmly in it's face.

[Ollie9]

Keep Sweet Nothings? Oh hell no! It's truly awful and in my all time bottom 5 of Ross songs. Sadly she liked it. She is a big fan of Brenda Lee and i think it would have been included even if Quincy had been at the helm.
The solo Endless Love should not have made the cut. Singing it solo on stage is one thing, but she should have left the studio version at the front door and closed it firmly in it's face.

Many thanks for providing my first chuckle of the day. ;) I think a slightly more rock arrangement of “Sweet Nothings” might have worked better. It would have been in keeping with the vibe of “Mirror Mirror. As it is, it comes across as being pretty tepid.
Regarding her solo version of “Endless Love”, i am in complete and utter agreement.
Totalling Diana’s entire recording career, there are only three songs i am unable to sit through. In order they are, Number 1 “Ave Maria”. 2. “Girls”. 3. Solo “Endless Love”.
Not bad when you consider she’s been recording for sixty years.

[Circa 1824]

I have never heard the solo Endless Love in its entirety. I just couldn’t.

I am also a fan of Brenda Lee. Out of Brenda’s great catalogue, she picks Sweet Nothings? Good gracious .....

[Bluebrock]

Many thanks for providing my first chuckle of the day. ;) I think a slightly more rock arrangement of “Sweet Nothings” might have worked better. It would have been in keeping with the vibe of “Mirror Mirror. As it is, it comes across as being pretty tepid.
Regarding her solo version of “Endless Love”, i am in complete and utter agreement.
Totalling Diana’s entire recording career, there are only three songs i am unable to sit through. In order they are, Number 1 “Ave Maria”. 2. “Girls”. 3. Solo “Endless Love”.
Not bad when you consider she’s been recording for sixty years.

That's not at all bad Ollie. Sadly i have a few more on my list that i am unable to listen to.
I am me, Fool for your love, old funky rolls and a couple from I love you. Your choices are also on my list.
Only too happy to give you a chuckle in these dark dismal times! Have a good day.

[Bluebrock]

I have never heard the solo Endless Love in its entirety. I just couldn’t.

I am also a fan of Brenda Lee. Out of Brenda’s great catalogue, she picks Sweet Nothings? Good gracious .....

I am also a fan of Brenda, and i also found it incredible she would choose Sweet Nothings when you consider what a fine catalogue of gems she had to choose from.
Maybe it held some personal significance for her. There is no other logical explanation.

[Ollie9]

That's not at all bad Ollie. Sadly i have a few more on my list that i am unable to listen to.
I am me, Fool for your love, old funky rolls and a couple from I love you. Your choices are also on my list.
Only too happy to give you a chuckle in these dark dismal times! Have a good day.

I remembered “Fool For Your Love” only after posting.
Old Funky is a strange one. Was it not released as a single?. I have a memory of hearing it played on the radio around that time. Probably Tony Blackburn. As a one off i don’t really mind it. Perhaps the plan was to show just how versatile Diana can be. Her acting skills are such that she does create a fun atmosphere on the song. It might have found a place on the Last Time I Saw Him album.... Then again, perhaps not lol.

[Ollie9]

I am also a fan of Brenda Lee. Out of Brenda’s great catalogue, she picks Sweet Nothings? Good gracious .....

I’m not overly familiar with the Brenda Lee back catalogue as it’s not really my kind of music. I quite like Peggy Lee. Which of M’s Lee’s songs do you think would have been a better fit for the Why Do Fools album?.

[Bluebrock]

I remembered “Fool For Your Love” only after posting.
Old Funky is a strange one. Was it not released as a single?. I have a memory of hearing it played on the radio around that time. Probably Tony Blackburn. As a one off i don’t really mind it. Perhaps the plan was to show just how versatile Diana can be. Her acting skills are such that she does create a fun atmosphere on the song. It might have found a place on the Last Time I Saw Him album.... Then again, perhaps not lol.

It was released as a single in the UK around the time she left Motown, but thankfully failed to chart.

[Circa 1824]

I’m not overly familiar with the Brenda Lee back catalogue as it’s not really my kind of music. I quite like Peggy Lee. Which of M’s Lee’s songs do you think would have been a better fit for the Why Do Fools album?.

Ollie try these:

break it to me gently
too many rivers
I’m sorry
fool number one

[sup_fan]

That's not at all bad Ollie. Sadly i have a few more on my list that i am unable to listen to.
I am me, Fool for your love, old funky rolls and a couple from I love you. Your choices are also on my list.
Only too happy to give you a chuckle in these dark dismal times! Have a good day.

haha i like old funky rolls too! while it's not a career highlight i do think it's fun and light.

but the solo Endless Love is ghastly

[sup_fan]

Many thanks for providing my first chuckle of the day. ;) I think a slightly more rock arrangement of “Sweet Nothings” might have worked better. It would have been in keeping with the vibe of “Mirror Mirror. As it is, it comes across as being pretty tepid.
Regarding her solo version of “Endless Love”, i am in complete and utter agreement.
Totalling Diana’s entire recording career, there are only three songs i am unable to sit through. In order they are, Number 1 “Ave Maria”. 2. “Girls”. 3. Solo “Endless Love”.
Not bad when you consider she’s been recording for sixty years.

lolol i like Girls too! again not a masterpiece. but it's fun. and imagine an 80s era video for it! yes it could have been better with someone besides Ross producing. but I'll take it, I Am Me and Funky Rolls over much of the EA album. or many of the WO tracks

[Boogiedown]

I'm surprised to hear Ross fans are turned off by her solo interpretation, what is it about the solo that makes it so unbearable??


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JwO-QrVpjM8

Is it because its so perfect as a duet?

Also right off .... does ENDLESS LOVE as a solo seem a bit tooo endless?

[Boogiedown]

Ollie try these:

break it to me gently
too many rivers
I’m sorry
fool number one

good stuff !


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5eJ-f1S-VqU


Love her twangy country hits of the seventies too:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DasrqlK02VA

[sup_fan]

I'm surprised to hear Ross fans are turned off by her solo interpretation, what is it about the solo that makes it so unbearable??


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JwO-QrVpjM8

Is it because its so perfect as a duet?

Also right off .... does ENDLESS LOVE as a solo seem a bit tooo endless?

i think it's a few reasons:

1. the original is perfect
2. she sounds really strained on it
3. the backing track just isn't nearly as pretty as original.

[lucky2012]

Keep Sweet Nothings? Oh hell no! It's truly awful and in my all time bottom 5 of Ross songs. Sadly she liked it. She is a big fan of Brenda Lee and i think it would have been included even if Quincy had been at the helm. I like most of your other ideas for the album. Work that body could have worked had it been given a more sexy and funky approach. Even Two can make it and it's never too late could have turned out well had better production and arranging been utilised, but the solo Endless Love should not have made the cut. Singing it solo on stage is one thing, but she should have left the studio version at the front door and closed it firmly in it's face.

Lol. We all have such differences about Ross likes/dislikes. I like this about SDF!

I was underwhelmed with Ross' Sweet Nothings. Maybe more disappointed. I think it's probably a sentimental favorite for her. It was a hit in 1959 for Brenda Lee, the same year as the Drifters' There Goes My Baby. Diana has always spoken fondly of those teen-age street-corner singing doo wop days. WDFFIL and Mr. Lee are from around the same time.
I didn't know she was a big fan of Brenda Lee. Good taste! I do recall reading in Lee's autobiography that when she was on a 60's television program that included the Supremes, Diana was more aloof or reserved than the other girls. But Lee went on to comment that Ross must have noticed or known because she covered Sweet Nothings years later.

I think Sweet Nothings is in the same fun vein as WDFFIL and Old Funky Rolls [[which I rather like). It could have been punchier, though.

Brenda Lee songs I love and would have liked to hear Diana Ross interpret would be I Want To Be Wanted, Break It To Me Gently and I'm Sorry. Too Many Rivers would be an ironic contrast to Ain't No Mountain High Enough. It also would have been fun to hear Ross or the [[original, classic, DMF) Supremes sing Rockin' Around The Christmas Tree, one of my favorite Christmas holiday songs.

I'm okay with Endless Love solo and Work That Body. I think I've played I Am Me and Girls maybe once or twice ever, which may mean I'm not a fan of Diana Ross' songwriting skills.

[Boogiedown]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JwO-QrVpjM8


i think it's a few reasons:

1. the original is perfect
2. she sounds really strained on it
3. the backing track just isn't nearly as pretty as original.

Got it! And I'll still add as a 4. - the track has a bit of endlessness about it...

Btw, listening to it I hear a couple of odd spots. At 1:38 mid-word Diana's voice drops, [["begun" becomes begu-un) , which to me suggests that's a point of a tape edit between two takes,

then at 3:14 she vocalizes a sound that is a non-word [[ or, what is the word? ) "chi-your" ?


????

[Ollie9]

Ollie try these:

break it to me gently
too many rivers
I’m sorry
fool number one

I don’t think any of these songs really suit Diana’s vocal style Circa. I can kind of see why she went with “Sweet Nothings”. The arrangement just needed a little more oomph.

[Ollie9]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JwO-QrVpjM8



Got it! And I'll still add as a 4. - the track has a bit of endlessness about it...

Btw, listening to it I hear a couple of odd spots. At 1:38 mid-word Diana's voice drops, [["begun" becomes begu-un) , which to me suggests that's a point of a tape edit between two takes,

then at 3:14 she vocalizes a sound that is a non-word [[ or, what is the word? ) "chi-your" ?


????

Interesting. My reasons are as follows.

1.The background music belongs in an elevator. It really is just awful.
2. Her voice is so strained it becomes uncomfortable to listen to.
3. A couple of times she sounds flat or slightly off key.
By contrast, Her vocals on the duet are crisp and engaging. Bottom line is she really needed a good producer.

[Bluebrock]

Interesting. My reasons are as follows.

1.The background music belongs in an elevator. It really is just awful.
2. Her voice is so strained it becomes uncomfortable to listen to.
3. A couple of times she sounds flat or slightly off key.
By contrast, Her vocals on the duet are crisp and engaging. Bottom line is she really needed a good producer.

Totally agree on all counts Ollie. Quincy could possibly salvaged something from this ship wreck, but without the guidance of an experienced producer she was literally all at sea, but at least it is consistent in quality with the rest of the album.
.

[sup_fan]

Interesting. My reasons are as follows.

1.The background music belongs in an elevator. It really is just awful.
2. Her voice is so strained it becomes uncomfortable to listen to.
3. A couple of times she sounds flat or slightly off key.
By contrast, Her vocals on the duet are crisp and engaging. Bottom line is she really needed a good producer.

hahaha - love the elevator comment! yes!

[Boogiedown]

... interesting that both Michael and Diana had songs centered around checking themselves out in the mirror, [[did anybody else?) not sure what that suggests .... [[ cue in Marv , sigh).....

MIRROR MIRROR was a good choice imo for Diana to make it clear she was now no longer a sound of Motown artist , save for maybe Rick James. It's too loud [[harsh) with too much of Sembello's guitar for my tastes, but I think the lyrics are what leave me even colder, vague but not in a clever way , this hard-ass adult sound paired with these childish storybook lyrics, for me is a mix that makes for a disjointed concept.
Written by Michael Sembello , would be interested if there's a story there [[again, Marv? , sigh) given he's a bit of a flash [[dance) in the pan, this song, MANIAC, and then curiously enough, a song for Michael Jackson....

Did Diana meet this manly hunk through Stevie?

Now, before someone accuses me of looking for a story where there is none:rolleyes::p, would we agree that this was a >heck of an odd choice< of a song by Diana to perform in Central Park:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yymiAJ_LXQM

Impressive well-rehearsed choreography :) [[The budget perhaps allowing for the one dancer?)

[khansperac]

Maniac was one of those “songs of the Summer”. It was written by Michael Sembello who also wrote her hit song “Mirror Mirror”. I’m assuming that’s why she sang them back to back. That “dancer” with her is world renowned choreographer Michael Peters who was the hottest choreographer around thanks to MJ and his video for “Beat it” which was another popular song that year- and another song Diana partially sang at this concert.

[Boogiedown]

Yes on all that khansperac. That lone "dancer" certainly was choreographer Michael Peters . Having him on stage with her for five minutes , that likely busted the show's choreography budget lol!

[reese]

Yes on all that khansperac. That lone "dancer" certainly was choreographer Michael Peters . Having him on stage with her for five minutes , that likely busted the show's choreography budget lol!

And to make it even all the more curious ----- Michael Sembello is actually performing at that concert.
She performs his huge hit of the summer , he's right there, yet she doesn't have him come out to share a little spotlight concerning his own song. Sort of a slap in the face of a complement , "I'm gonna sing your song! ....come play on it .... in the background":p
....not sure what she was hiding [[not revealing) [[??) [[ marv ....? sigh )

....oh .....mirror mirror on the wall.... tell me, tell me!!!:p

I gather you haven't seen the Central Park concert in its entirety. The show opened with a youthful dance troupe from which Diana emerged. A bit later, a young boy and girl danced during her performance of HOME. Still later, she danced with a group of dancers costumed as various animals as she performed her current single PIECES OF ICE.

Re the covers, I was actually surprised that Diana was doing some outside material in concert as she really hadn't done so in quite a while. Besides MANIAC, she also performed BEAT IT, RIBBON IN THE SKY, and FAMILY [[from DREAMGIRLS). All of these were recent and the latter was a real surprise as it was known that Diana wasn't too fond of DREAMGIRLS. She sang all of these in concert when I saw her a few weeks later.

[Circa 1824]

Bottom line is she really needed a good producer.

A tip-top producer is the key to any great song.

Today, I was in a restaurant, and Cher’s If I Could Turn Back Time came on. That was one hell of a produced song. The entire song, from first note to last note, was perfect! Cher sounded awesome as did everything else. Give it a listen.

Ross is a sh*t producer. And, it shows in her music. Sad......

[WaitingWatchingLookingForAChance]

And whoever doth speak a word against Diana Ross shall be cast into the fiery furnace to remain unforgiven in this age and the age to come. The testament of truth shall finally be revealed.
Bottom line being, any Ross fans who consider her less then perfect better watch out. :mad:

I have to thank you. This brought such a great smile to my face just now and a nice laugh. I love the Bible and maybe that's why it hit me just right! Absolutely love it! Should be canonized in The Book of Ross!

[Ollie9]

I have to thank you. This brought such a great smile to my face just now and a nice laugh. I love the Bible and maybe that's why it hit me just right! Absolutely love it! Should be canonized in The Book of Ross!

Your more then welcome. Sometimes i think it all gets just a little tooo serious. The fact that most of us are able to step back and see the funny side of things is a reason the forum has been a much happier place of late.

p.s I was raised a good catholic boy.

[Ollie9]

A tip-top producer is the key to any great song.

Today, I was in a restaurant, and Cher’s If I Could Turn Back Time came on. That was one hell of a produced song. The entire song, from first note to last note, was perfect! Cher sounded awesome as did everything else. Give it a listen

I like Cher Circa, but am not a massive fan. I love the sentiments of IICTBT and consider it one of her very best.. I took a listen and yes, the production is clean and crisp.
I think the remix of Diana’s Until We Meet Again” could have been done for her what “Believe” did for Cher.

[benross]

After considering the comments here, I reread several reviews from the New York papers at the time of the album's release. None was overly enthusiastic, to say the least, and while some songs [[Endless Love and the various oldies) were mentioned, there was no description of what was good or bad about them. The most memorable thing in any of the reviews was The New York Times' very quick summary of Diana's career to date, mentioning the Motown years and the "Billy Holiday" period. Yes, folks, the Times' actually spelled Billy that way. I'm sure I noticed the spelling when I read the review for the first time, back in the day, and thought to myself then that the mistake took some of the luster off the Times' reputation, and the album took some of the luster off of Diana's can-do-no-wrong overall reputation, as far as I was concerned.

[Levi Stubbs Tears]

A tip-top producer is the key to any great song.

Ross is a sh*t producer. And, it shows in her music. Sad......

Funny isn't it. For almost all of her career, particularly the early years, Ross is considered the ultimate professional in terms of her preparation and performance.

Yet when she was finally in control of her career at RCA, the word I would use to describe her is 'lazy'.

Was it 'Missing You' that wasn't really a finished track but Diana said 'it'll do' or words to that effect? Other tracks like 'Work That Body' never really seem finished to me either and the choice of a 'Why do Fools' cover as the lead single to launch her post-Motown career is the ultimate in laziness as far as I'm concerned.

[Circa 1824]

Funny isn't it. For almost all of her career, particularly the early years, Ross is considered the ultimate professional in terms of her preparation and performance.

Yet when she was finally in control of her career at RCA, the word I would use to describe her is 'lazy'.

Was it 'Missing You' that wasn't really a finished track but Diana said 'it'll do' or words to that effect? Other tracks like 'Work That Body' never really seem finished to me either and the choice of a 'Why do Fools' cover as the lead single to launch her post-Motown career is the ultimate in laziness as far as I'm concerned.

Lionel said he also wanted to further perfect their duet of Endless Love. She refused. It was a great cut, but can you imagine how fine it might have been with a touch up or two?

Lazy is a good word to describe Ross since her exit from Motown.

[Albator]

I don't know if she was lazy or if she had an unadapted reaction to her days under Gordy harsh guidance.
"Missing you" is a splendid performance, and I don't think Ritchie is a better singer than Diana.
Maybe he is in a technical way, but certainly not in connecting soul and voice to the lyrics of a tune. Diana out-sang him at the Oscar.
I had the same feelings after I saw him sings with Streisand last year in London. He have a preserved voice, but he was bland, mechanical.

[Ollie9]

As has been discussed before, Diana was all about making money during this period. In fairness to her, it must have come as a huge shock when she discovered just how little she was worth upon leaving Motown. That of course is when she made the decision to learn more about the business side of things. Kudos to her for that as it made her a very rich woman.
From a fans perspective, i would have loved to have seen a little more of that new found wealth and independence invested into releasing better quality music.

[Albator]

As has been discussed before, Diana was all about making money during this period. In fairness to her, it must have come as a huge shock when she discovered just how little she was worth upon leaving Motown. That of course is when she made the decision to learn more about the business side of things. Kudos to her for that as it made her a very rich woman.
From a fans perspective, i would have loved to have seen a little more of that new found wealth and independence invested into releasing better quality music.

This assertion surprises me in the sense that I don’t know if being cheap with studio costs made her a richer woman.
She sold less records, less concert seats, she loose RCA contract and she had a whole new generation passing in front of her. Back at Motown, the damages were done. So, I don’t think she was richer because of bad records.

[Ollie9]

This assertion surprises me in the sense that I don’t know if being cheap with studio costs made her a richer woman.
She sold less records, less concert seats, she loose RCA contract and she had a whole new generation passing in front of her. Back at Motown, the damages were done. So, I don’t think she was richer because of bad records.

The fact being she must have saved a substantial amount by self producing her first two efforts for rca. That was the point I was making about investing in her music. Diana herself has that she enrolled in business classes to learn more about the financial side of the industry. Following this she went on to make some very shrewd investments and ultimately proved herself a talented business woman.

[Bluebrock]

The fact being she must have saved a substantial amount by self producing her first two efforts for rca. That was the point I was making about investing in her music. Diana herself has that she enrolled in business classes to learn more about the financial side of the industry. Following this she went on to make some very shrewd investments and ultimately proved herself a talented business woman.

Correct on all counts Ollie.

[Bluebrock]

Your more then welcome. Sometimes i think it all gets just a little tooo serious. The fact that most of us are able to step back and see the funny side of things is a reason the forum has been a much happier place of late.

p.s I was raised a good catholic boy.

I too have noticed what a much happier place this forum has been of late. I had a lengthy enforced absence, and i have spent some time looking through some of the posts i missed due to being incapacitated. I noticed there was one major drama involving Mary Wilson's involvement on the BBC History of Soul series.There was some fighting on that particular post, but other than a minor spat between two members over something so trivial i can barely recall it, the forum seems to have become a peaceful and respectful place to visit, and that can only be a positive thing. Long may it continue.

[sup_fan]

i think lazy is a bit harsh of a description. maybe frugal and preoccupied might be better

i completely agree that in 81, she was focusing on money and as she rightly should have. typically in the professional world, your 30s are where you ramp up your career and earnings so that in your 40s and into your 50s, you're maximizing your salary. These are typically your highest earning years. It might continue into late 50s and into 60s. but some start to back down during those years. of course it all depends on the person and work

but Diana is no different. in 81 she was 37 years old. i'm assuming she basically had no Social Security since Motown didn't withhold it. they weren't required to by law since the artists were earning Royalties and not a Salary. tax withholding differ by the source of your income. She had $100K in bank and maybe a bit more here and there. after 20 years of grueling work.

she also had 3 young children and was very concerned about caring for them.

now let's face it. if Diana was a 'normal' person and in 81 had $100K+ in the bank, she could have easily afforded a nice, normal house in a suburb, maybe gotten a job earning $40K a year and lived happily ever after.

But Diana had no college education. What career path would she go into - music teaching? she had no teaching training or certificate, had not studied anything about vocal pedagogy. She really didn't have many options.

Gene Simmons was a perfect influence at this time - get every penny you can today because in this business you never know what tomorrow will bring.

[reese]

i think lazy is a bit harsh of a description. maybe frugal and preoccupied might be better

i completely agree that in 81, she was focusing on money and as she rightly should have. typically in the professional world, your 30s are where you ramp up your career and earnings so that in your 40s and into your 50s, you're maximizing your salary. These are typically your highest earning years. It might continue into late 50s and into 60s. but some start to back down during those years. of course it all depends on the person and work

but Diana is no different. in 81 she was 37 years old. i'm assuming she basically had no Social Security since Motown didn't withhold it. they weren't required to by law since the artists were earning Royalties and not a Salary. tax withholding differ by the source of your income. She had $100K in bank and maybe a bit more here and there. after 20 years of grueling work.

she also had 3 young children and was very concerned about caring for them.

now let's face it. if Diana was a 'normal' person and in 81 had $100K+ in the bank, she could have easily afforded a nice, normal house in a suburb, maybe gotten a job earning $40K a year and lived happily ever after.

But Diana had no college education. What career path would she go into - music teaching? she had no teaching training or certificate, had not studied anything about vocal pedagogy. She really didn't have many options.

Gene Simmons was a perfect influence at this time - get every penny you can today because in this business you never know what tomorrow will bring.

In Lear's magazine, Diana also mentioned that during this period, she actually had to go to a bank and borrow money to pay her taxes, something she thought had already been done.

[Albator]

As far as we know she wanted Quincy Jones to produce her first LP, and it’s because of schedule impossibilities she went to produce WDFFIL by herself. Who says it’s because Quincy was expensive she decided to do without him. This LP was probably expensive to produce, maybe more than diana. So I’m not saying that money issues were not important for her at that time, but I have a hard time accepting the idea that she is wealthy because she saved money in the making of this LP. It’s a mediocre one because she had no capacity or ethic to do the job. Lazy vocals are not less expensive to record than crisp one.

[sup_fan]

As far as we know she wanted Quincy Jones to produce her first LP, and it’s because of schedule impossibilities she went to produce WDFFIL by herself. Who says it’s because Quincy was expensive she decided to do without him. This LP was probably expensive to produce, maybe more than diana. So I’m not saying that money issues were not important for her at that time, but I have a hard time accepting the idea that she is wealthy because she saved money in the making of this LP. It’s a mediocre one because she had no capacity or ethic to do the job. Lazy vocals are not less expensive to record than crisp one.

now that use of the word lazy i'll agree with. many of her self-produced vocals are lazy. she just didn't have the passion or drive as she did when a great and strong producer was at the helm.

[Ollie9]

As far as we know she wanted Quincy Jones to produce her first LP, and it’s because of schedule impossibilities she went to produce WDFFIL by herself. Who says it’s because Quincy was expensive she decided to do without him. This LP was probably expensive to produce, maybe more than diana. So I’m not saying that money issues were not important for her at that time, but I have a hard time accepting the idea that she is wealthy because she saved money in the making of this LP. It’s a mediocre one because she had no capacity or ethic to do the job. Lazy vocals are not less expensive to record than crisp one.

I agree, it would be rather silly to suggest she became a rich woman simply by cutting down on recording costs. As already mentioned, a 20 million dollar recording contract and wise investments took care of that. She could I’m sure have easily found another producer for WDFIL but chose not to. Silk Electric was comprised mostly of rejects from the WDFFIL sessions. It’s lack of quality speaks volumes, yet it was released. To me that would indicate that on occasion she was happy to cut costs when the opportunity presented itself. The casualty being the quality of the music.

[Ollie9]

i think lazy is a bit harsh of a description. maybe frugal and preoccupied might be better

I agree. Lazy is not a word I would ever associate with Diana Ross.

[Albator]

I agree, it would be rather silly to suggest she became a rich woman simply by cutting down on recording costs. As already mentioned, a 20 million dollar recording contract and wise investments took care of that. She could I’m sure have easily found another producer for WDFIL but chose not to. Silk Electric was comprised mostly of rejects from the WDFFIL sessions. It’s lack of quality speaks volumes, yet it was released. To me that would indicate that on occasion she was happy to cut costs when the opportunity presented itself. The casualty being the quality of the music.Yes, I agree. But this tend to show that she had little idea about what her fans wanted at that time, or that she over estimated her capacities, or both.
Maybe she was in this Manhattan Super Woman mood and thought she could do it all. Sing, perform, produce, sell perfumes, ready to wear, be an actress, a mother and all...

[khansperac]

Is it a known fact that many tracks for Silk Electric were rejects from Fools?

[sup_fan]

I agree, it would be rather silly to suggest she became a rich woman simply by cutting down on recording costs. As already mentioned, a 20 million dollar recording contract and wise investments took care of that. She could I’m sure have easily found another producer for WDFIL but chose not to. Silk Electric was comprised mostly of rejects from the WDFFIL sessions. It’s lack of quality speaks volumes, yet it was released. To me that would indicate that on occasion she was happy to cut costs when the opportunity presented itself. The casualty being the quality of the music.

i've wondered about SE being rejects from WDFFIL. I'd love to get the data on the recording dates and see what was done when.

I believe Bluebrock has mentioned that there are a couple of tunes from Ross 83 that were unreleased. What about the others? Fight For It missed the SA album but was on the 45. did EA or Red Hot have many canned tracks? in the interest of being spend thrift, i'm not surprised that there aren't lots of canned materials. that's wasted studio expenses

also i wouldn't be surprised if there weren't many takes of the songs. clearly many of her self-produced vocals as less than inspired. i can't image her doing them again and again.

[reese]

i've wondered about SE being rejects from WDFFIL. I'd love to get the data on the recording dates and see what was done when.

I believe Bluebrock has mentioned that there are a couple of tunes from Ross 83 that were unreleased. What about the others? Fight For It missed the SA album but was on the 45. did EA or Red Hot have many canned tracks? in the interest of being spend thrift, i'm not surprised that there aren't lots of canned materials. that's wasted studio expenses

also i wouldn't be surprised if there weren't many takes of the songs. clearly many of her self-produced vocals as less than inspired. i can't image her doing them again and again.

In the Discography of J. Randy's last book on Diana, he mentioned that Tom Dowd produced a track for TRY A LITTLE TENDERNESS that he wanted Diana to do for RHRAB but she wasn't happy with it and didn't finish the vocal. I don't recall him mentioning any other unreleased material from the RCA years.

I would suspect that after Diana became in control of her finances and realized how much she had to pay for all of those unreleased sessions at Motown that she wouldn't be prone to make such a mistake at RCA.

[Ollie9]

Yes, I agree.
Maybe she was in this Manhattan Super Woman mood and thought she could do it all. Sing, perform, produce, sell perfumes, ready to wear, be an actress, a mother and all...

With the exception of trying her hand at producing, i would say she did rather well.

[Ollie9]

In the Discography of J. Randy's last book on Diana, he mentioned that Tom Dowd produced a track for TRY A LITTLE TENDERNESS that he wanted Diana to do for RHRAB but she wasn't happy with it and didn't finish the vocal. I don't recall him mentioning any other unreleased material from the RCA years.

I would suspect that after Diana became in control of her finances and realized how much she had to pay for all of those unreleased sessions at Motown that she wouldn't be prone to make such a mistake at RCA.

I agree 100% reese.