Mary Wilson..REALLY.

[mowsville]

Im watching the first part of a 3 part documentary on BBC 4 about Soul music and they had a clip of Mary Wilson talking about The Supremes being more Pop than Soul and she said The Supremes never had a hit on the R&B charts.Jesus Christ they had 30+ hits on the R&B charts how can she not know that.Now if the younger viewers watching a member of one of the BIGGEST selling Groups on the R&B charts hear this they are going to take that as the truth.It really bugs me when things like this happen.

[TYK1986]

Guess I'll have to have a quick look tomorrow on BBC Iplayer. People who will take it as the truth probably don't care or are not really interested. People who are interested will probably go online and look for the charts and find out she was wrong. It is annoying when wrong information comes from performers themselves. You would think she would have said that they were hitting the top of charts on both Billboard and R&B. That's how successful we were!!!

[blackguy69]

Before some of you go on the tirade and post long arguments to prove her wrong think about this, how often do you think she looks at the charts to see how their songs did. Or more than likely they were told how their songs did on the top 100 as opposed to the top r&b charts. It is possible that she didn’t know [[and before anyone says otherwise. I remember an interview with Scherrie saying that she didn’t know that Crumbs off the Table was an r&b too 10 hit). The 60’s Supremes were considered a pop act as the 70’s incarnation were more r&b

[mowsville]

Whether she knew or not is neither here nor there...its a documentary...a little bit of research wouldnt hurt...if I was in one of the biggest groups of all time and was going on film to talk about Soul music and my contribution to R&B I would be a bit intrigued to find out how my group had actually done on the R&B charts and had a little look..it just makes her look a tad silly.

[TYK1986]

Wonder if someone told her after the interview that they had many hits. Just so she knows that they were good on both charts. Very good!!
Makes a lot of sense Blackguy69 she probably doesn't know how well all their singles did on the charts. Only some of us, obsessed fans, know lol. Hope someone corrected her. It's only a good thing for her to know.

[mowsville]

She could have said I dont know how many hits we had on the R&B chart if she didnt know...why say they had none if she didnt know if they had or not...plus I have seen an interview with her where she says their first charting records were hitting higher on the R&B chart than the national chart.

[daviddh]

Wasn't stoned love #1 in 1970

[BayouMotownMan]

In reality, and having studied Motown's impact on the various charts over the years, from 1964 until Diana left, the group scored more successes on the pop chart. It was with Jean and Scherrie that the group did better on the soul charts than the pop charts.

[mowsville]

Im not disputing the fact that the 70s Supremes had more success on the Soul chart at all..all the more reason for Mary to know...when she was told the singles are not doing that good on the national chart dont you think someone would have said BUT they are fairing better on the R&B chart...Nothing But Heartaches,Love Is Like An Itching,Forever Came Today,I'm Living In Shame,I'll Try Something New,The Composer,No Matter What Sign and The Weight all faired better on the R&B chart than the national chart and all the others before did just as well on that chart only one or two places lower than the national chart.

[khansperac]

It’s a great way to spin not being the crossover success they use to be. Did they really have more success on the R&B chart, or were they simply not having the same success on the pop charts?

[blackguy69]

If the girls can get dates wrong on certain songs they recorded, then what makes you think they would know how each song did on various charts. Like it was mentioned earlier, only us obsessed fans know this information. I would not expect Mary or Diana to know how each song charted on every chart,

[Roberta75]

Marys a 76 year old woman and cant be expected to remember everything. Diana couldnt remember what year Reflections was reqcorded when someone ask her at the Wynn last year. She thought is was 1965. Some days I cant remember what I had for breakfast. It happens to everyone. Not a big deal IMO.

[thanxal]

Marys a 76 year old woman and cant be expected to remember everything. Diana couldnt remember what year Reflections was reqcorded when someone ask her at the Wynn last year. She thought is was 1965. Some days I cant remember what I had for breakfast. It happens to everyone. Not a big deal IMO.
I agree completely. Why give Mary a hard time? Celebrate that she's still out there and doing her thang. I can't remember half a dozen things from yesterday, let alone 60 years ago!

[mowsville]

Im not saying she HAS to remember everything...im saying a little research into your own band before going on tv to talk about them wouldnt go a miss.

[TYK1986]

People are all different when it comes to remembering things. Some can't even remember what they had for dinner the previous day. I had a look in her book and noticed in the bit with all the dates of recordings and releases that only the pop chart results were written down.
Thing is that someone should have corrected her on the programme. BBC is just one of them channels where they should not give people wrong information "cough cough". It's just bad in general, not on Mary part because they could have easily told her and edited the programme or like I said correct her immediately. Misleading information, not this as such, is annoying. People ask me questions about the country where I come from and then I ask them where they got that information from. I tell them it's Bullshit and read the article to find out half of it in incorrect. I've been called "that boy who smokes weed" :rolleyes: lol. It get annoying after a while.

[westgrandboulevard]

Hmmmm, I'll need to watch it again....

I have to agree with Mowsville that having a clear, accurate recall of the facts is always the ideal for any of us who takes a keen interest in our career, whatever it may be.

Otherwise, those who are interested in us and our life will think it strange, and feel disappointed, if they think we are being perhaps a little dismissive of the facts.

On the other hand, I think the line of conversation that led to Mary's remark about The Supremes being pop, not R&B, was about Number One hits?

I think Mary would have wished The Supremes to be more R&B [[that is, more soulful), at least at times, but understands 'pop' was what sold them to the world...and this was the point being made in the programme, so she seemed to attempt to confirm it in a 'soundbite' - but which was rather inaccurate in actual facts.

I'm also thinking that it could have been an off the cuff remark, without any added comments [[for example, Mary could have said 'we had no R&B big hits as big as our pop ones').

Yes, it's always possible that some of her remarks were edited?

Finally, isn't it true that some of The Supremes hits [[Number One, or otherwise) did not feature on R&B charts because none were published for a couple of years?

A good programme, I thought - thought Mary was great, also great to see Martha in the 'Snakepit', and to hear Susaye recall her days as a Raelet[[te). :)

[blackguy69]

All of the girls number ones were not number one r&b hits. Only 5 were.

[blackguy69]

And if we’re keeping it real, in all of the interviews she has done, this topic was never asked of her

[BayouMotownMan]

Im not disputing the fact that the 70s Supremes had more success on the Soul chart at all..all the more reason for Mary to know...when she was told the singles are not doing that good on the national chart dont you think someone would have said BUT they are fairing better on the R&B chart...Nothing But Heartaches,Love Is Like An Itching,Forever Came Today,I'm Living In Shame,I'll Try Something New,The Composer,No Matter What Sign and The Weight all faired better on the R&B chart than the national chart and all the others before did just as well on that chart only one or two places lower than the national chart.

Having success on the R&B chart is not the same as having success on the pop chart. A top ten single on the R&B chart back then might have amounted to 50K sales. That same record being top ten pop could have achieved 500K in sales. The R&B chart was just icing on the cake back then. Only medium to large cities had R&B stations, you had entire geographic areas that didn't have R&B stations until the 70s.

[TYK1986]

Can someone give Mary the pop and R&B charts then she can have a look. I think having 5 number 1's and Stoned love so 6, on the R&B chart, is still a massive achievement despite differences in sales for pop and R&B charts.

[midnightman]

The Supremes are getting old, they're not gonna remember everything. Cut Mary some slack lol

Plus, she might be referring to when the Supremes' songs hit the top of the pop charts but never peaked at the top of the R&B charts. Only 5 during the DRATS era and only 1 after DR left. Whereas, everyone knows the group scored 12 number one songs on the POP charts.

[mowsville]

absolutely pointless.

[RanRan79]

I'm with Mows on this. That's a pretty big statement to make. The Supremes were the most successful female group, not just on the Hot 100, but on the R&B chart as well, on Billboard, Cashbox, and Record World. They racked up 8 #1s [[Billboard did not publish an R&B chart from late 1964 to right after the new year of 1965, however "Where Did Our Love Go" and "Baby Love" were both #1 on CB's and RW's R&B charts); 17 non #1 top 10s, including 6 #2's.

With limited research I was able to ascertain that "Stop In the Name Of Love" was kept out of the #1 spot for at least one week by "Shotgun" and then another week by Solomon Burke's "Got To Get You Off My Mind"; "I Hear A Symphony" was kept out of the top spot for at least two weeks by James Brown's "I Feel Good"; and "Love Child" was kept out of the top spot for at least three weeks by "Who's Making Love", and when "Who's" finally dropped from 1 to 2 because Marvin's "Grapevin" hit #1, "Love Child" fell to #6, behind the aforementioned songs as well as "For Once In My Life", "Bring It On Home To Me" [[Eddie Floyd), and "Cloud Nine". That's serious competition.

It's true that during the 70s the Supremes were consistently better on the R&B chart than Hot 100, but during the 60s it was not a rarity either. "Let Me Go the Right Way", "Lovelight", "Run, Run, Run", "Nothing But Heartaches", "Itchin", "Forever Came Today", "I'm Living In Shame", "I'll Try Something New", "The Composer", and "No Matter What Sign You Are" all had better R&B placements than they did on the Hot 100.

In comparison, Martha and the Vandellas had 2 #1s and 8 top 10s; Marvelettes 1 #1 and 10 top 10s; Shirelles zero #1s and 7 top 10s; the Emotions 1 #1 and 4 top 10s; Pointer Sisters 1 #1 and 5 top 10s; TLC 3 #1s and 6 top 10s; and Destiny's Child 4#1s and 7 top 10s. The Supremes dusted everybody. And we won't even get on albums.

Remember, the Hot 100, nicknamed the "pop chart", pop standing for "popular", is a ranking of songs across a broad spectrum of radio and sales. The fact that the Supremes managed 12 #1s against so much vast competition coming from so many directions is incredible. On the R&B chart the competition was less vast because the genre was a bit "specific". That the Supremes did the damage they did even on the R&B chart amid accusations they were somehow "less soulful" [[*eye roll*) in some R&B circles, is still incredible.

That Mary Wilson had no idea her songs ever placed on the R&B chart is laughable IMO. Sometimes I think she just says shit just to see what'll happen. I am no Charlemagne from the Breakfast Club fan, but for this one time I'm going to borrow from him and give Mary Wilson "Donkey Of the Day" for this bullshit.

[blackguy69]

I get what you’re saying but in reality thing that we expect them to know aren’t always what it is. How often do you think she gets asked this question. As far as I know this is the first. I bet if you asked Jean or Diana or Scherrie you might get a similar answer that Mary gave. Only us fans know the answer seeing we study it and regularly quote parts of it. Most of the time if she’s asked she will mention the number ones but d sad she very rarely talk about chart positions on the pop charts so why would I expect her to know how the songs did on the r&b charts. Do we also expect her to know how their songs did on the adult contemporary charts or the Dance charts? I wish she did know but let’s get real how many artists really know how their songs charted on every category?

I'm with Mows on this. That's a pretty big statement to make. The Supremes were the most successful female group, not just on the Hot 100, but on the R&B chart as well, on Billboard, Cashbox, and Record World. They racked up 8 #1s [[Billboard did not publish an R&B chart from late 1964 to right after the new year of 1965, however "Where Did Our Love Go" and "Baby Love" were both #1 on CB's and RW's R&B charts); 17 non #1 top 10s, including 6 #2's.

With limited research I was able to ascertain that "Stop In the Name Of Love" was kept out of the #1 spot for at least one week by "Shotgun" and then another week by Solomon Burke's "Got To Get You Off My Mind"; "I Hear A Symphony" was kept out of the top spot for at least two weeks by James Brown's "I Feel Good"; and "Love Child" was kept out of the top spot for at least three weeks by "Who's Making Love", and when "Who's" finally dropped from 1 to 2 because Marvin's "Grapevin" hit #1, "Love Child" fell to #6, behind the aforementioned songs as well as "For Once In My Life", "Bring It On Home To Me" [[Eddie Floyd), and "Cloud Nine". That's serious competition.

It's true that during the 70s the Supremes were consistently better on the R&B chart than Hot 100, but during the 60s it was not a rarity either. "Let Me Go the Right Way", "Lovelight", "Run, Run, Run", "Nothing But Heartaches", "Itchin", "Forever Came Today", "I'm Living In Shame", "I'll Try Something New", "The Composer", and "No Matter What Sign You Are" all had better R&B placements than they did on the Hot 100.

In comparison, Martha and the Vandellas had 2 #1s and 8 top 10s; Marvelettes 1 #1 and 10 top 10s; Shirelles zero #1s and 7 top 10s; the Emotions 1 #1 and 4 top 10s; Pointer Sisters 1 #1 and 5 top 10s; TLC 3 #1s and 6 top 10s; and Destiny's Child 4#1s and 7 top 10s. The Supremes dusted everybody. And we won't even get on albums.

Remember, the Hot 100, nicknamed the "pop chart", pop standing for "popular", is a ranking of songs across a broad spectrum of radio and sales. The fact that the Supremes managed 12 #1s against so much vast competition coming from so many directions is incredible. On the R&B chart the competition was less vast because the genre was a bit "specific". That the Supremes did the damage they did even on the R&B chart amid accusations they were somehow "less soulful" [[*eye roll*) in some R&B circles, is still incredible.

That Mary Wilson had no idea her songs ever placed on the R&B chart is laughable IMO. Sometimes I think she just says shit just to see what'll happen. I am no Charlemagne from the Breakfast Club fan, but for this one time I'm going to borrow from him and give Mary Wilson "Donkey Of the Day" for this bullshit.

[midnightman]

I have to agree with blackguy... it's not likely many folks keep up with chart information like that. I'm sure the Supremes didn't think about their accomplishments until the dust finally settled. They worked all the time so it wasn't like they could enjoy it. They didn't think much of it. But if someone told Mary or Diana "did you know how many number ones and top tens y'all had?" And mentioned them? They would both have their eyes all out like "YOU'RE KIDDING?!" LOL I get what y'all saying, Mows and Ran, but I don't think it was that simple.

[RanRan79]

I'm with both BG and Midnight on there's no way Mary, or any of them, were keeping up with every move on the charts. They didn't even know they had been nominated for a Grammy! So I definitely get where y'all are coming from on that. But there's a big difference between saying "I don't know what position such and such song hit on the R&B chart" and "We never had a song on the R&B chart". That's a million mile difference. I cannot be convinced that Mary never knew that her songs were hits on the R&B chart. But to clarify, no, I don't believe any of them were reading Billboard and keeping up with chart stats on any given song.

[marybrewster]

Funny how something seemingly insignificant is such drama. Over the years ALL of the Supremes have made faux pas in interviews.

[jim aka jtigre99]

Funny how something seemingly insignificant is such drama. Over the years ALL of the Supremes have made faux pas in interviews.
I so totally agree. I have read this thread with a grain of salt. They are entertainers, not historians and all of them have made errors in interviews. I am sure in the back of Mary's mind was how successful they were in the pop arena and were not considered as R & B as other groups. REALLY.

[mowsville]

like I said a couple of times in this thread if your going on tv to do a programme about Soul music and your importance and input into that paticular genre of music then it wouldnt hurt to do a little bit of RESEARCH and find out how you fared in this particular genre rather than go on tv and kind of dismiss your own group ever having any success on the Soul/R&B chart...its like Dolly Parton being asked to do a programme about Country and Western and then saying shes never had a hit on the Country chart...im sure she wouldnt want to make herself look that stupid...all it takes is a quick flick through a book or ask someone who would know how well you did on the R&B chart to just give yourself a bit of credibility that you know how successful your group was on a chart that to me would be more significant than the Pop chart...plus im sure Mary would love to know that The Supremes were the biggest selling female group on the R&B chart since she always wanted more R&B songs to sing.

[vgalindo]

like I said a couple of times in this thread if your going on tv to do a programme about Soul music and your importance and input into that paticular genre of music then it wouldnt hurt to do a little bit of RESEARCH and find out how you fared in this particular genre rather than go on tv and kind of dismiss your own group ever having any success on the Soul/R&B chart...its like Dolly Parton being asked to do a programme about Country and Western and then saying shes never had a hit on the Country chart...im sure she wouldnt want to make herself look that stupid...all it takes is a quick flick through a book or ask someone who would know how well you did on the R&B chart to just give yourself a bit of credibility that you know how successful your group was on a chart that to me would be more significant than the Pop chart...plus im sure Mary would love to know that The Supremes were the biggest selling female group on the R&B chart since she always wanted more R&B songs to sing.
I agree with you 💯 percent. It wasn’t like she was asked on some random interview. She knew the show was about Soul Music.

[144man]

Maybe over the years Mary has heard so many people say that the Supremes were the least soulful of the Motown groups that she's taken it on board, almost been brainwashed to believe that that was the case. If this is so, it would only take a small step for her to develop a false memory and make the assumption that the Supremes had underperformed on the R&B charts.

[RanRan79]

Funny how something seemingly insignificant is such drama. Over the years ALL of the Supremes have made faux pas in interviews.

What's insignificant to you cannot necessarily be applied to me. I find Mary's statement to be a huge error, one I did not expect her to make. I criticized her and certainly don't see that criticism as "drama". I guess the relative calm around here has caused some of y'all to forget what real drama in this forum looks like. This aint it.

[RanRan79]

its like Dolly Parton being asked to do a programme about Country and Western and then saying shes never had a hit on the Country chart

Boom! Or Dolly participating in a documentary about pop music and saying she's never charted on that chart. Everyone is allowed mistakes and screw ups. A couple months ago I mentioned in a thread about Diana's memory never having been the best, evidenced by her claim on the Farewell album that "Love Is Here and Now You're Gone" was from 1965. You would expect someone so young to know that the song was from 1967. So you definitely have to give them some wiggle room now that they're elderly. [[Feels so weird to refer to the Supremes as "elderly".) But elderly doesn't mean free to just say stupid shit, and what Mary said was stupid. What's next? HDH never wrote a song for them? They never sang with the Temptations or the Four Tops? They were never on Ed Sullivan? And if so, do we let that go, or is that the point that we can officially start "drama"?

Anyway, while Mary get's the first criticism, the final critique has to be whoever was behind the documentary, because when Mary makes that kind of idiotic claim, it's up to the documentarians to make certain that the error is corrected somehow immediately after she says it. Either cut out the obvious erroneous part of her statement, or have the narration or text make it known that the Supremes were indeed the most successful female group on the R&B chart. How can that type of claim go uncorrected?

[Boogiedown]

The BBC didn't have a soul chart:rolleyes: so when the girls were following their success in the UK it would have been concerning the UK pop chart , so maybe that's why Mary's wondering what the heck the BBC interviewer is even talking about.......[[ "R&B chart ? we were on the pop chart")

[mowsville]

Totally agree Ran...the makers of the documentary should have known their stuff too.

[TheMotownManiac]

Mary talks off the top of her head, she is so used to just saying anything that reality and veracity are not great concerns to her. At one time she knew the Supremes sold a lot of R&B records because it was in her books - Maybe she forgot, personally I think she just doesn’t give a shit and she just says stuff. I can’t tell you the number of contradictory phrases I’ve heard her utter over the years. Sometimes she contradicts herself even in the same interview, but I think she gives the best interviews of anybody at Motown

I don’t believe it is the job of the documentary makers to check the truthfulness of what interviewees will say, at least I’ve never seen that done before. Of all the things that Mary has said over the years that are not true in interviews, I’m struck dumb that this would be something that would bring the topic to light.

[blackguy69]

Only the second book ever mentioned r&b charts and even that was just a passing comment

[RanRan79]

I don’t believe it is the job of the documentary makers to check the truthfulness of what interviewees will say, at least I’ve never seen that done before. Of all the things that Mary has said over the years that are not true in interviews, I’m struck dumb that this would be something that would bring the topic to light.

I disagree. If one is doing a doc on soul music, you expect that the subject first be researched heavily. One cannot research soul music without running across the impact of Aretha Franklin, James Brown, Motown, Stax, and yes, even the Supremes, among many others. There's a reason why the Supremes were represented in this doc in the first place. These names actually have history making positions within the genre. So either the doc makers didn't do any research and just decided to interview a bunch of Black artists, or they knew Mary didn't know what she was talking about and chose to ignore it.

Any good documentarian wants a doc with factual information. No facts and it's just a mockumentary.

True, Mary has said some crazy stuff over the years, and she's been called out for it multiple times in this forum. This is only the latest thing to wag our fingers at. Personally I found the statement she made to be disrespectful, intentional or not. But she's Mary Wilson, co founder of the Supremes. She'll be forgiven this and we'll all move on, as usual.

[milven]

Mary talks off the top of her head, she is so used to just saying anything that reality and veracity are not great concerns to her... I think she just doesn’t give a shit and she just says stuff. ... Sometimes she contradicts herself even in the same interview....


Your description of Mary makes her sound like she has the current qualifications to be President :D

By being so accessible for interviews, Mary has kind of been the unofficial spokesperson for Motown and especially the Supremes. As such, maybe she should be a little more prepared for interviews. But look on the bright side. At least she is cutting down a little on the Princess Margaret and Ave Maria bits.

[TheMotownManiac]

I disagree. If one is doing a doc on soul music, you expect that the subject first be researched heavily. One cannot research soul music without running across the impact of Aretha Franklin, James Brown, Motown, Stax, and yes, even the Supremes, among many others. There's a reason why the Supremes were represented in this doc in the first place. These names actually have history making positions within the genre. So either the doc makers didn't do any research and just decided to interview a bunch of Black artists, or they knew Mary didn't know what she was talking about and chose to ignore it.

Any good documentarian wants a doc with factual information. No facts and it's just a mockumentary.

True, Mary has said some crazy stuff over the years, and she's been called out for it multiple times in this forum. This is only the latest thing to wag our fingers at. Personally I found the statement she made to be disrespectful, intentional or not. But she's Mary Wilson, co founder of the Supremes. She'll be forgiven this and we'll all move on, as usual.

I agree with you. In a better world, it would be great to have informative interviews but there’s so little of that anymore. Plus, I know better than to expect anything other than spin from LAMare - so it just doesn’t bother me. She just wants attention and doesn’t really care what the content is… Unless she’s plugging some thing.

but she is beautiful, engaging, funny as hell, the perfect ambassador and I think her interviews that may not be loaded down with truths, still make a better read than hearing about diana ross his grandchildren, as wonderful as they may be,… Yet again.

[TheMotownManiac]

Your description of Mary makes her sound like she has the current qualifications to be President :D

By being so accessible for interviews, Mary has kind of been the unofficial spokesperson for Motown and especially the Supremes. As such, maybe she should be a little more prepared for interviews. But look on the bright side. At least she is cutting down a little on the Princess Margaret and Ave Maria bits.

I would vote for Mary to be the president of RTL and the United States before I would vote for Trump!

[milven]

I would vote for Mary to be the president of RTL and the United States before I would vote for Trump!

Amen to that.

[mowsville]

I went to my mothers today and she had recorded the Soul programme which she watched last night before the second one...we eventually got round to talking about it and the first thing my mother said to me was that she didnt realize that The Supremes were so unpopular with the R&B/black/soul folks...my mum was a teenager in the 60s and had lots of black friends who were absolute nuts about The Supremes so I had to explain to her that what Mary had said was actually not true...then came the question well why would she go on tv and disrespect her culture like that...and that is my whole point about this thread ....its not just about chart statistics its about a lot more than that when you look at it and thats why a silly remark like this can do a lot of damage to The Supremes legacy...remembering what year a song came out or what colour your dress was on a particular show is NOT comparable to this at all.

[marybrewster]

like I said a couple of times in this thread if your going on tv to do a programme about Soul music and your importance and input into that paticular genre of music then it wouldnt hurt to do a little bit of RESEARCH and find out how you fared in this particular genre rather than go on tv and kind of dismiss your own group ever having any success on the Soul/R&B chart...its like Dolly Parton being asked to do a programme about Country and Western and then saying shes never had a hit on the Country chart...im sure she wouldnt want to make herself look that stupid...all it takes is a quick flick through a book or ask someone who would know how well you did on the R&B chart to just give yourself a bit of credibility that you know how successful your group was on a chart that to me would be more significant than the Pop chart...plus im sure Mary would love to know that The Supremes were the biggest selling female group on the R&B chart since she always wanted more R&B songs to sing.

Like when Diana went on Oprah and didn't know when Lynda and Scherrie joined the Supremes? Like that kind of research?

[marybrewster]

What's insignificant to you cannot necessarily be applied to me. I find Mary's statement to be a huge error, one I did not expect her to make. I criticized her and certainly don't see that criticism as "drama". I guess the relative calm around here has caused some of y'all to forget what real drama in this forum looks like. This aint it.

A huge error. I get it. But how will you sleep tonight? Will you need therapy? Hopefully you'll someday be able to move past this.

[marybrewster]

I went to my mothers today and she had recorded the Soul programme which she watched last night before the second one...we eventually got round to talking about it and the first thing my mother said to me was that she didnt realize that The Supremes were so unpopular with the R&B/black/soul folks...my mum was a teenager in the 60s and had lots of black friends who were absolute nuts about The Supremes so I had to explain to her that what Mary had said was actually not true...then came the question well why would she go on tv and disrespect her culture like that...and that is my whole point about this thread ....its not just about chart statistics its about a lot more than that when you look at it and thats why a silly remark like this can do a lot of damage to The Supremes legacy...remembering what year a song came out or what colour your dress was on a particular show is NOT comparable to this at all.

Disrespect her culture? Tell me you're kidding.

[marybrewster]

I would vote for Mary to be the president of RTL and the United States before I would vote for Trump!

Now here's a comment that makes some sense!

#MaryForRTLPrez2020

[RanRan79]

Like when Diana went on Oprah and didn't know when Lynda and Scherrie joined the Supremes? Like that kind of research?

Diana not knowing exactly when two women joined her former group long after she left is one thing. Mary not knowing that her records were huge hits on the r&b charts is another.

[RanRan79]

A huge error. I get it. But how will you sleep tonight? Will you need therapy? Hopefully you'll someday be able to move past this.

Bitch kiss my muthafuckin ass on this Saturday afternoon. You act like somebody accused you of something. Are you personally taking up the banner of Mary Wilson and any criticism that comes her way? If so, it would've been nice if you were up front about that so I could ignore you and focus on the folks who could discuss the issue without the snark. Btw, this is what drama looks like, stupid ass.

[RanRan79]

I went to my mothers today and she had recorded the Soul programme which she watched last night before the second one...we eventually got round to talking about it and the first thing my mother said to me was that she didnt realize that The Supremes were so unpopular with the R&B/black/soul folks...my mum was a teenager in the 60s and had lots of black friends who were absolute nuts about The Supremes so I had to explain to her that what Mary had said was actually not true...then came the question well why would she go on tv and disrespect her culture like that...and that is my whole point about this thread ....its not just about chart statistics its about a lot more than that when you look at it and thats why a silly remark like this can do a lot of damage to The Supremes legacy...remembering what year a song came out or what colour your dress was on a particular show is NOT comparable to this at all.

It was disrespectful. The air about it is that if it's the R&B chart, who cares? The R&B chart charted the success of the songs that were most popular in the genre during any given week. The fact that the Supremes managed to top that chart eight times, and come close half a dozen more times, shouldn't be a stat to sneeze at. Dolly Parton never would've gotten away with such a thing. Hell, Mary Wilson would've never gotten away with it if she said it about the pop charts on a pop music documentary. But if it's R&B, oh well. Who cares about that chart, right?

I saw an interview, or read one, where George Michael was talking about how proud he was when the Faith album hit #1 on the R&B chart. Mary would probably faint if she heard that.:p

But truthfully, I don't think Mary meant any disrespect. I think she just runs off at the mouth without thinking. But her comment, and maybe other comments, set the stage for this idea to be perpetuated by people who don't know any better, that the Supremes were unpopular with an audience made up of people who looked like them and were culturally similar. That couldn't be further from the truth. The Supremes as a group had disbanded by the time I was born, but I've learned enough from listening to older relatives who were part of the Boomer generation to know that the Supremes were a force beyond pop audiences. The doc makers allowed this false information to go unchallenged.

[marybrewster]

Bitch kiss my muthafuckin ass on this Saturday afternoon. You act like somebody accused you of something. Are you personally taking up the banner of Mary Wilson and any criticism that comes her way? If so, it would've been nice if you were up front about that so I could ignore you and focus on the folks who could discuss the issue without the snark. Btw, this is what drama looks like, stupid ass.

Nice mouth. You kiss your mother with that?

You are RIDICULOUS. Black men being killed by white cops. Rioting in the streets. Thousands of people dying of Covid. And your biggest worry is that Mary Wilson shrugged off the R and B charts? Get a life.

[ralpht]

I've received a couple of complaints on this thread. I see a little rudeness coming through. I guess I need to remind everyone that this particular room was formed so those that seem to love fighting about the Supremes can have at it, leaving me out of it. I do wish this wouldn't happen, but that was the deal.Carry on.

[marybrewster]

I've received a couple of complaints on this thread. I see a little rudeness coming through. I guess I need to remind everyone that this particular room was formed so those that seem to love fighting about the Supremes can have at it, leaving me out of it. I do wish this wouldn't happen, but that was the deal.Carry on.

Thanks for checking in Ralph. We certainly got what we asked for?

Thankfully internet warriors that hide behind a keyboard worrying about what a 76 year old woman says about something that happened 50 years ago bothers me zero. I have bigger fish to fry. Although I do request that I'm not called bitch. Most address me as THE bitch.

[ralpht]

Thank you for understanding, Mary.

[ralpht]

I must admit that, in spite of the agreement, this sort of behavior bothers me. It shows disrespect for my forum. Please consider using better manners.

[mowsville]

Ran theres no point in even discussing this one any further...I will just see you in the head teachers office no doubt.

[RanRan79]

Nice mouth. You kiss your mother with that?

You are RIDICULOUS. Black men being killed by white cops. Rioting in the streets. Thousands of people dying of Covid. And your biggest worry is that Mary Wilson shrugged off the R and B charts? Get a life.

Lady quit lying. You don't give a shit about any of that stuff. I can smell the Trump on you. You're concerned about all of those things, but you keep bringing your ass into this thread to be nasty about the criticism of a documentary. How concerned could you possibly be with any of the stuff you mentioned and still be so bothered to disrupt this thread with your bullshit? Suck a dick.

You and I have differing opinions about what Mary said. I have had no problem respecting your right to disagree, on this or anything else. Me and Mows have mostly been in the minority on this issue. Most everyone else in the thread who disagreed with us were able to do so without being condescending or dismissive, all except you and one other person, who didn't linger on it. Again, you seem to have taken my posts in this thread as some kind of personal attack against you. It was never that...until I cussed your ass out. It was criticism of Mary WILSON's words. Perhaps you saw me mention Mary and assumed I meant Brewster. I didn't. I was referring to MARY WILSON, daughter of Sam and Johnnie Mae, co founder of the legendary Supremes. Might you admit this was your mistake?

[RanRan79]

Thanks for checking in Ralph. We certainly got what we asked for?

Thankfully internet warriors that hide behind a keyboard worrying about what a 76 year old woman says about something that happened 50 years ago bothers me zero. I have bigger fish to fry. Although I do request that I'm not called bitch. Most address me as THE bitch.

I just wrote the nastiest response to this and even I had to delete every word. I'll keep it much shorter and simple than what I just erased, and say this: You're 76 years old and you have yet to learn how to respectfully disagree with others. It's not a good look. One of the great things about this forum is that it allows the exchange of thoughts and opinions that may not always align with our own. We should all make a conscious effort to ensure that this space is one in which people are free to say "I didn't like that" without getting responses that seek to insinuate that the opinion holder can't sleep or needs therapy because they didn't like something. Nothing about that came from a place of kindness and at 76 I'm almost certain that you knew that. To then play victim when your negativity elicited a negative reaction speaks to maybe some other type stuff going on with you that's really none of my business.

You and I have corresponded within this forum for years now and I have never had this experience with you. What you did in this thread came out of left field from my POV. If this was the result of some past offense on my part that I might be unaware of, please let me know. But other than that, my words in this forum did not deserve what you gave them.

[RanRan79]

I must admit that, in spite of the agreement, this sort of behavior bothers me. It shows disrespect for my forum. Please consider using better manners.

You may not have liked my response, but it was a response just the same. Respectful posts don't get responses from me like the one I gave in this thread. That is not typical of how I go about interacting with people in this forum, and there's approximately 5 thousand posts that bear witness to this. She [[Brewster) was wrong and she got called out. The end.

[RanRan79]

Ran theres no point in even discussing this one any further...I will just see you in the head teachers office no doubt.

The sad thing is that the subject isn't one that we can go on for much longer, but I hate to give somebody the satisfaction of thinking they forced us into silence. But to purposefully drag it out just to spite takes too much energy and would be time consuming. And life is too short for that. So I'll move on with you. But I aint going into nobody's office.:p

[Ollie9]

Your description of Mary makes her sound like she has the current qualifications to be President :D

By being so accessible for interviews, Mary has kind of been the unofficial spokesperson for Motown and especially the Supremes. As such, maybe she should be a little more prepared for interviews. But look on the bright side. At least she is cutting down a little on the Princess Margaret and Ave Maria bits.

Speaking personally, i kind of miss Mary’s engaging re-enactment of the Princess Margaret incident. It certainly is a classic tale, and one that proves funnier and funnier with each re-telling.
Mary’s own unique take of an English accent is really something rather special. The line “Is that a vig your wearing” gets me every time. :rolleyes:

[marybrewster]

Speaking personally, i kind of miss Mary’s engaging re-enactment of the Princess Margaret incident. It certainly is a classic tale, and one that proves funnier and funnier with each re-telling.
Mary’s own unique take of an English accent is really something rather special. The line “Is that a vig your wearing” gets me every time. :rolleyes:

I'm sure you've seen the clip of Mary telling this story on Letterman? I think he says something like "I didn't know PM was German?" WHOOPS! Cracks me up.

Mary's "Ave Maria" is over the top. Kind of eccentric in a Little Richard sort of way.

[midnightman]

I still don't think it's a big deal what Mary said. The Supremes, as much as y'all hate to hear it, are getting OLD. Virtually every member still alive right now are in their 70s [[Cindy is an anomaly at 80 though Diana, Mary and Jean are fast approaching 80 as well). Are we really expecting these women to remember everything???

To me, what's important is the Supremes changed pop history. Not R&B history. Why is this argument THAT important? They were gonna be in the history books regardless if they made the R&B charts or not. Are we really gonna complain about someone thinking they never made the R&B charts? That's the hill we're gonna die on???

[midnightman]

Mary talks off the top of her head, she is so used to just saying anything that reality and veracity are not great concerns to her. At one time she knew the Supremes sold a lot of R&B records because it was in her books - Maybe she forgot, personally I think she just doesn’t give a shit and she just says stuff. I can’t tell you the number of contradictory phrases I’ve heard her utter over the years. Sometimes she contradicts herself even in the same interview, but I think she gives the best interviews of anybody at Motown

I don’t believe it is the job of the documentary makers to check the truthfulness of what interviewees will say, at least I’ve never seen that done before. Of all the things that Mary has said over the years that are not true in interviews, I’m struck dumb that this would be something that would bring the topic to light.

Someone finally said it. Mary is getting old, she's gonna forget things. How should we hold her accountable to that? That's like people arguing that Diana was dumb for suggesting LIHANYG was released in 1965 lol [[and this was a couple years after it was released). People are gonna say what they think happened, wrong or right. The Supremes are not the only ones that this has happened to but somehow, people like to put them on the microscope. Otis Williams could say the Temptations only made the pop charts ten times and no one would say "what's wrong with him?" But Mary has to be criticized for this? I don't get it.

[midnightman]

Wow... just checked page 1.

Guys, it's not that serious.

It really isn't.

[RanRan79]

I still don't think it's a big deal what Mary said. The Supremes, as much as y'all hate to hear it, are getting OLD. Virtually every member still alive right now are in their 70s [[Cindy is an anomaly at 80 though Diana, Mary and Jean are fast approaching 80 as well). Are we really expecting these women to remember everything???

To me, what's important is the Supremes changed pop history. Not R&B history. Why is this argument THAT important? They were gonna be in the history books regardless if they made the R&B charts or not. Are we really gonna complain about someone thinking they never made the R&B charts? That's the hill we're gonna die on???

It's okay that you're unbothered by the error. Is it really burning your spirit that Mows and I feel differently? I know you about as well as anyone can know someone in a forum such as this, and so I'm pretty sure your spirit isn't burning about it.:p But will someone explain to me at which point are we allowed to have opinions about the Supremes and anything connected to it without it being turned into some kind of drama? I didn't like what Mary Wilson said and I think I did a pretty good job of explaining why. But I keep getting the feeling that folks think I said Mary Wilson should be beheaded or something. Mary Wilson is still my girl, I just feel like she f'd up on this. Is that not allowed anymore?

[RanRan79]

Someone finally said it. Mary is getting old, she's gonna forget things. How should we hold her accountable to that? That's like people arguing that Diana was dumb for suggesting LIHANYG was released in 1965 lol [[and this was a couple years after it was released). People are gonna say what they think happened, wrong or right. The Supremes are not the only ones that this has happened to but somehow, people like to put them on the microscope. Otis Williams could say the Temptations only made the pop charts ten times and no one would say "what's wrong with him?" But Mary has to be criticized for this? I don't get it.

Maybe I've outgrown my time here. I'll be on pins and needles with every opinion I hold on the Supremes from now on, which will make my time in this forum pointless.

[RanRan79]

Wow... just checked page 1.

Guys, it's not that serious.

It really isn't.

On this we can agree. A day later brings a new perspective.

[Ollie9]

On this we can agree. A day later brings a new perspective.

”Can you feel a brand new day”. :D
I can appreciate both sides on this one. Oprah herself has often mentioned the fact that during that turbulent time in history the Supremes were pivotal in promoting black acceptance and recognition in the media. For that reason alone, the groups R&B chart success assumes added relevance.
On the other side Mary, is usually asked to comment on the amount of pop number 1’s the group achieved and records they hold so may not have been quite aware or thinking clearly when she made that comment. Plus she is 76 lol.

[midnightman]

Yeah I never hear too many R&B questions being asked to Mary besides being in that documentary about soul music.

[jobeterob]

The Supremes were absolutely instrumental in popularizing R & B to the white market and they also created a whole style and sound. To have it suggested that it was not successful R & B is just not accurate and it is wrong to suggest that.

Mary doesn’t think enough before she speaks and she really should take more care.

Diana and especially her daughters go out of their way to respect their roots

[marybrewster]

The Supremes were absolutely instrumental in popularizing R & B to the white market and they also created a whole style and sound. To have it suggested that it was not successful R & B is just not accurate and it is wrong to suggest that.

Mary doesn’t think enough before she speaks and she really should take more care.

Diana and especially her daughters go out of their way to respect their roots

Could you give some examples how Diana goes out of her way to respect her roots? I don't mean that as a shitty question or response. I just don't see it. So I'm curious what others see that I don't.

[midnightman]

The Supremes were absolutely instrumental in popularizing R & B to the white market and they also created a whole style and sound. To have it suggested that it was not successful R & B is just not accurate and it is wrong to suggest that.

Mary doesn’t think enough before she speaks and she really should take more care.

Diana and especially her daughters go out of their way to respect their roots

I think I credit Dionne Warwick with popularizing R&B to the white market. Songs like "Don't Make Me Over", "Walk on By" and "Message to Michael" were perfect examples of pop and soul integrating. But Motown definitely pioneered it very well too.

[carlo]

Could you give some examples how Diana goes out of her way to respect her roots? I don't mean that as a shitty question or response. I just don't see it. So I'm curious what others see that I don't.

I was also wondering the same and had originally written the same question and decided in the end not to post it, as I felt like it was a baseless and baiting comment that was made to turn this into another unnecessary Diana vs Mary debate. Mary forgetting the Supremes' R&B charts statistics is one thing. Trying to infer that she does not respect her roots is a completely different thing, and not only untrue, in my opinion, but also irrelevant to this topic. As a white male, I would first of all never feel inclined to make a statement about a black person "not acknowledging their roots", whether true or not. Also, we are talking about two legendary women here [[Diana and Mary, since Jobeterob brought them both into this with his comment), who made music history in a civil rights context. So to try and infer whether someone is actively and publicly "respecting their roots", when they themselves are an integral part of black history, is ludicrous.

I can understand the frustration in this thread, because we as fans and even historians, want to ensure historical accuracy. At the end of the day, Mary made a mistake and as we all know, very few, if any, of the Supreme ladies, remember all of the historical details as perfectly as we do. We've heard and read inaccuracies in various interviews over the years. At this point, this thread has become more of a "I'm right, dammit" type of argument, instead of a respectful discussion, which I guess is cool, if that's what you're all about. Not sure how that's helping anyone though.

[Bluebrock]

I was also wondering the same and had originally written the same question and decided in the end not to post it, as I felt like it was a baseless and baiting comment that was made to turn this into another unnecessary Diana vs Mary debate. Mary forgetting the Supremes' R&B charts statistics is one thing. Trying to infer that she does not respect her roots is a completely different thing, and not only untrue, in my opinion, but also irrelevant to this topic. As a white male, I would first of all never feel inclined to make a statement about a black person "not acknowledging their roots", whether true or not. Also, we are talking about two legendary women here [[Diana and Mary, since Jobeterob brought them both into this with his comment), who made music history in a civil rights context. So to try and infer whether someone is actively and publicly "respecting their roots", when they themselves are an integral part of black history, is ludicrous.

I can understand the frustration in this thread, because we as fans and even historians, want to ensure historical accuracy. At the end of the day, Mary made a mistake and as we all know, very few, if any, of the Supreme ladies, remember all of the historical details as perfectly as we do. We've heard and read inaccuracies in various interviews over the years. At this point, this thread has become more of a "I'm right, dammit" type of argument, instead of a respectful discussion, which I guess is cool, if that's what you're all about. Not sure how that's helping anyone though.

This particular thread was seriously derailed a few days ago, but thankfully things appear to have calmed down. I am just about to watch the episode in question .A very good friend of mine was involved in the production of this programme and he was amazed when i told him the fury and vitirol Mary's comments had caused, but he said it was not his place to correct Mary or edit her comments. Only a very small fraction of Mary's contribution was used for the programme, and maybe the full footage would have told a different story.
At the end of the day it is hardly a life and death matter. People are losing their lives everyday, and that really is a life and death matter. Let's keep it real folks, and let's keep it positive.
Much love to you all.

[jobeterob]

A couple of people asked about Diana and her daughters connection to their roots; here is a Tracee post from Facebook:



Tracee Ellis Ross
13 hrs ·
“Our spirits, I promise you, are bigger than the systems we face; and I promise you our purpose is greater than the oppression that tries to grab hold of us. Those systems, they may have stolen Breonna’s life but but they will never steal her light. That oppression may have taken her life but it will never steal her legacy because we will fight for that.” ~ @mspackyetti

I feel at a loss with language right now, but please go to @mspackyetti’s page and watch her latest IGTV about #breonnataylor

Rhonda posts similarly and perhaps even often than Tracee.

Now it is the daughters, not Diana - but they are all family and also quite connected to the Obamas.

As a side note, my recollection is Mary Wilson supported Hilary who would have been a great president whereas the Ross's supported Obama.

[midnightman]

Both Diana and Mary are Democrats, last I checked.