The Wiz wasn’t so wonderful for Black cinema

[marv2]

https://www.thestar.com/entertainment/movies/opinion/2018/03/21/the-wiz-wasnt-so-wonderful-for-black-cinema.html

[carlo]

In my opinion, to compare the 1978 film version of The Wiz to the Black Panther film from 2018 is not really fair, as they were making this comparison in the article. The writer is entitled to his/her opinion on the movie. Even though it didn't do as well as hoped back in 1978, I get the sense that it has continued to sell very well on the home viewing market, as we've seen it reissued countless times in different DVD and Blu-ray packages over the years. I feel that the film has become more legendary and appreciated over time, for the most part.

[jobeterob]

It’s quite strange but I think The Wiz may now be the movie she is best known for

[carlo]

It’s quite strange but I think The Wiz may now be the movie she is best known for

I also sense the same.

[Circa 1824]

Why didn’t they slap some makeup on Ross and a nice wig? She looked horrible. So did Michael Jackson.

[midnightman]

It’s quite strange but I think The Wiz may now be the movie she is best known for

That's because black audiences keep playing it lmao

Also the songs from the original musical are timeless and I think that's the real reason they watch the film because without it, the film was a hot mess.

Nothing looked right. Even the songs performed on the film compared to the play was off. Of the film, I really only liked Ted Ross, Mabel King and Richard Pryor. Diana's Dorothy was a little too depressed and Michael's Scarecrow was trying too hard to be clumsy all while doing his famous dance moves [[which you don't see much of because the camera kept zooming him out lmao).

The musical from a few years ago on NBC actually righted a lot of wrongs from the film. Like Dorothy was just meant to be a 12-year-old girl from Kansas, not a streetwise twentysomething schoolteacher from Harlem. LOL

I looked at the film in recent years and...it doesn't hold up at all. I wouldn't compare it to Black Panther though... weird comparison.

Wanna see Diana at her finest as an actor? Watch Lady Sings the Blues, not The Wiz.

[Ollie9]

The article raises some really valid points.
In my own opinion the film was pretty awful then and is much the same now. I only ever watch it because it’s Diana, though i think M.J the best thing in it.
As far as musicals go it was the Xanadu of the 70’s. The musics great, but the films s—t.

[jim aka jtigre99]

I know The Wiz is now the most watched and popular of her films but its lack of success hurt her film career at the time. It did not do well and Gordy did not include it in the Motown 25 show because of that. Whatever reason it resonates with audiences now it didn't back then. It wasn't the hip, updated version it could have been. Diana Ross is an excellent actress. Her work in her first film was superb and she nearly won the Oscar for Lady Sings the Blues. Mahogany was not nearly as good but Ross acted very well in it. I remember reading that she was very good and critics felt it was a Modern day "Womans" picture much like the ones headlined by Bette Davis and Joan Crawford in the 1930-40's. Ross was heralded for designing the costumes herself, some which are quite memorable. The theme song was nominated for an Oscar. The Wiz reviews felt she was miscast and too old to play Dorothy, her acting choices of playing scared and downbeat were stating she did not project the talent of Diana Ross onscreen. Her television movies were similar as Out of Darkness , which was about mental illness showed again what she could do with a well written, weighty role. She was nominated for a Golden Globe for her performance. Double Platinum with Brandy was escapist fare much like Mahogany was. She didn't have as meaty a role to sink her teeth into but it was enjoyable fare with many enjoyable songs on it. Still, The Wiz at the time was heralded as finally having a big Hollywood movie featuring a black cast that wasn't "blaxploitation" films which was a phrase coined at that time. The studios were hoping the musical would usher in a new and different era with black casts in different kind of fares. Yet, the film did not catch on at the time. The only positive thing that came out of it that critics considered was the pairing of Michael Jackson and Quincy Jones for Jackson's upcoming outstanding musical career. I may be wrong on what I wrote-so forgive me-it was just what I remember reading in the media at the time. I still think it is a shame that Ross hasn't been in more films as she is a good actress. In fact, I also think Mary Wilson could have been an actress after seeing her in some films. Cindy Birdsong had appeared in plays but did not go that route. Florence Ballard, I remembered reading, was considered to be cast in Hello Dolly and that would have been perfect casting. Still, I find The Wiz enjoyable enough but the least liked of her films for me and I wonder if anyone younger could share the insight as to why it is so popular now.

[RanRan79]

Growing up, most of my peers and myself loved The Wiz, and I imagine for most of us that love hasn't gone anywhere. We did not sit down to The Wiz with the expectations that our parents did. Stephanie Mills was the lady on the cover of my mother's I've Got the Cure album, she was not Dorothy to us. All we saw were great musical numbers and of course Michael Jackson. As an adult I still hold the movie in high regard, but will concede that it probably would've been ten times better in the hands of a different director. And while Black Panther had this overt Black experience narrative, The Wiz wasn't without some covert messages. I once read that the cabs constantly reading out of service and pulling off when the characters approached, was a nod to the experience of Black people attempting to hail a cab and being passed by.

What I found interesting about this review is that the reviewer seems to justify Hollywood's reluctance to finance more films with Black casts after the failure of The Wiz rather than call it what it was which was racism. So one Black casted movie fails and it means people don't want to see Black people in films and that line of thinking is okay? FOH.

The Wiz rocks!

[captainjames]

REALLY ? The Black Panthers film compared to the Wiz ?? Why ?
Believe it or not, The Wizard of Oz was a box office bomb when it was released in 1939..
It was re-released The Wizard of Oz in 1949 for its 10th anniversary and it eventually became a profitable film for the studio, and it added $1.5 million to its box office.
I would say the Wiz is probably more comparable to that.

[jobeterob]

REALLY ? The Black Panthers film compared to the Wiz ?? Why ?
Believe it or not, The Wizard of Oz was a box office bomb when it was released in 1939..
It was re-released The Wizard of Oz in 1949 for its 10th anniversary and it eventually became a profitable film for the studio, and it added $1.5 million to its box office.
I would say the Wiz is probably more comparable to that.

That’s what you always read - it’s a “cult classic” say the most recent liner notes

[midnightman]

Ran, I think this person definitely was being a bit racist. Black films definitely make bread. WAITING TO EXHALE proved that in 1995!

[Ollie9]

Perhaps the film is best compared to Marmite.... You either love it or you hate it lol.
I do remember that here in the UK it received mostly, if not entirely negative reviews with Diana taking the brunt of most of the criticism.
After the fun but camp nonsense of Mahogany, she really needed a meaty role to build on the huge acclaim and momentum generated by her captivating performance in LSTB. Sadly The Wiz brought everything to a grinding halt.
The film is saved for me by the wonderful score with Diana’s voice is in fine fettle. She turns out some really moving and powerful vocal performances.

[marv2]

Another problem it had is that Motown and Universal hyped it so much that everyone was expecting a masterpiece. When turned out to be dud, people were disappointed and radio stopped with the constant playing of "Ease On Down the Road".

[Jimi LaLumia]

my young niece who is now a brilliant school teacher, when she finally found out that my obsessions were Diana Ross and David Bowie, told me that she loved them.. Her pop music growing up was the 90's Britney Spears, Backstreet Boys etc.. so I asked how could she love them..like millions of kids her age, cable movies helped to 'baby sit ' her,and her two go to classics of cable were box office bombs that young America grew up watching over and over..Ross in The Wiz and Bowie in Labyrinth neither of which I was able to sit through from start to finish.. about a decade ago at work, a young man of color was sitting at a table with a few of us older folks, and when I started to talk about ' when Diana Ross left The Supremes.." he said, "Diana Ross was in The Supremes?" and a handful of us looked at each other and laughed.. Yes, he knew her primarily as The Wiz!! what can I tell ya? [[like my niece, he loved it./.)

[captainjames]

Diana had some strong vocals in the movie especially with home but I always relate to the song " A Brand New Day" from the Wiz. Quincy, Diana, Michael, Ted and Nipsey were at the top of their game on this one.


https://youtu.be/zy8dUJEOqos?t=82

[Boogiedown]

my young niece who is now a brilliant school teacher, when she finally found out that my obsessions were Diana Ross and David Bowie, told me that she loved them.. Her pop music growing up was the 90's Britney Spears, Backstreet Boys etc.. so I asked how could she love them..like millions of kids her age, cable movies helped to 'baby sit ' her,and her two go to classics of cable were box office bombs that young America grew up watching over and over..Ross in The Wiz and Bowie in Labyrinth neither of which I was able to sit through from start to finish.. about a decade ago at work, a young man of color was sitting at a table with a few of us older folks, and when I started to talk about ' when Diana Ross left The Supremes.." he said, "Diana Ross was in The Supremes?" and a handful of us looked at each other and laughed.. Yes, he knew her primarily as The Wiz!! what can I tell ya? [[like my niece, he loved it./.)

Ha ! That is funny!

Have to admit there are solo artists that emerged from groups that I didn't realize the evolution. why just this day :p in fact, I learned that SEASONS IN THE SUN singer Terry Jacks , fifty years ago was a member of the Poppy Family and on the chart with:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hBbmD20FuSE

oh and that the Poppies weren't a family at all...

[midnightman]

Perhaps the film is best compared to Marmite.... You either love it or you hate it lol.
I do remember that here in the UK it received mostly, if not entirely negative reviews with Diana taking the brunt of most of the criticism.
After the fun but camp nonsense of Mahogany, she really needed a meaty role to build on the huge acclaim and momentum generated by her captivating performance in LSTB. Sadly The Wiz brought everything to a grinding halt.
The film is saved for me by the wonderful score with Diana’s voice is in fine fettle. She turns out some really moving and powerful vocal performances.

If she was giving the greenlight for the Josephine Baker film, that might've worked.

[BobbyC]

Black Panther is the biggest grossing solo super hero film ever made--in the top ten of all movies, on top of that

[Ollie9]

If she was giving the greenlight for the Josephine Baker film, that might've worked.

For all Diana’s bravado regarding filming The Wiz, i think the tidal wave of negative, critical comment she received really burnt her. She was simply not use to failure.
I have always thought this was one of the reasons she was reluctant to commit to any further film projects.
The proposed JB biopic was different as being very personal to her. Perhaps her insistence that she at least co-produce the film stems from insecurities regarding how The Wiz turned out.

[TheMotownManiac]

For all Diana’s bravado regarding filming The Wiz, i think the tidal wave of negative, critical comment she received really burnt her. She was simply not use to failure.
I have always thought this was one of the reasons she was reluctant to commit to any further film projects.
The proposed JB biopic was different as being very personal to her. Perhaps her insistence that she at least co-produce the film stems from insecurities regarding how The Wiz turned out.

I think it made her more careful, but it did not stop Hollywood from giving her offers…… On the offer she wanted to make we’re not involved.

[TheMotownManiac]

I can’t watch it I can’t watch it I can’t watch it I can’t watch it I can’t watch it and I’m jealous jealous jealous jealous jealous of those who like it.

The two biggest entertainment disappointments of my life R in order:

1) The Lucy Show - I couldn’t believe that Lucy was coming back to television I was so excited I couldn’t stand it, until I saw the first episode and couldn’t stand THAT. she was like some old bitch had taken over the role of Lucy Ricardo and turned her into a braying harridan With not one clever line of dialogue in the entire series to say. As the credits rolled at the end of that first episode, I was sick to my stomach.

2) The Wiz. I couldn’t imagine how they were going to film the story to begin with because the fantasy element from the stage would be very very difficult to transfer it to the screen. I couldn’t imagine that a 33-year-old woman would be playing the part of a 12-year-old girl. MGM was afraid that Judy Garland looked too old when they released the Wizard of Oz in 1939 because she was 16 when they filmed it. But I figured that universal knew what they were doing, they knew they had cast a 33-year-old, they knew they were spending twice with any musical head ever cost, they knew they were casting Michael Jackson even though he had absolutely no idea how to say a line of dialogue up until then, and they knew they had to redeem themselves after mahogany. So I put all my reservations aside and happily eagerly went to the sneak preview with a bunch of friends. The minutes flew by like hours. I knew from the opening credits it was going to be a disaster. I knew from the opening scene it’s going to be a disaster. I knew when I saw the snow storm in those awful special effects it was going to be a disaster. I knew that when the lighting was going to be so awful and hard to see any of the songs were going to be like funeral dirges It was going to be a disaster. The few little bright spots in it meant nothing to me and still don’t. I’m glad that it has found eager eyes and ears - I cannot watch it.

[jim aka jtigre99]

I can’t watch it I can’t watch it I can’t watch it I can’t watch it I can’t watch it and I’m jealous jealous jealous jealous jealous of those who like it.

The two biggest entertainment disappointments of my life R in order:

1) The Lucy Show - I couldn’t believe that Lucy was coming back to television I was so excited I couldn’t stand it, until I saw the first episode and couldn’t stand THAT. she was like some old bitch had taken over the role of Lucy Ricardo and turned her into a braying harridan With not one clever line of dialogue in the entire series to say. As the credits rolled at the end of that first episode, I was sick to my stomach.

2) The Wiz. I couldn’t imagine how they were going to film the story to begin with because the fantasy element from the stage would be very very difficult to transfer it to the screen. I couldn’t imagine that a 33-year-old woman would be playing the part of a 12-year-old girl. MGM was afraid that Judy Garland looked too old when they released the Wizard of Oz in 1939 because she was 16 when they filmed it. But I figured that universal knew what they were doing, they knew they had cast a 33-year-old, they knew they were spending twice with any musical head ever cost, they knew they were casting Michael Jackson even though he had absolutely no idea how to say a line of dialogue up until then, and they knew they had to redeem themselves after mahogany. So I put all my reservations aside and happily eagerly went to the sneak preview with a bunch of friends. The minutes flew by like hours. I knew from the opening credits it was going to be a disaster. I knew from the opening scene it’s going to be a disaster. I knew when I saw the snow storm in those awful special effects it was going to be a disaster. I knew that when the lighting was going to be so awful and hard to see any of the songs were going to be like funeral dirges It was going to be a disaster. The few little bright spots in it meant nothing to me and still don’t. I’m glad that it has found eager eyes and ears - I cannot watch it.
I actually liked The Lucy Show very much especially when Vivian Vance was still on the show. They certainly couldn't remake I Love Lucy but the Lucy Show held up until Viv left and then Gale Gordon took over what essentially was the Ricky role which made Lucy Carmichael more into a scatterbrain getting him all riled up. Here's Lucy was the one that was disappointing to me. The Wiz was just not directed properly and as much as I love Diana Ross and see her est intentions, she was miscast and was not directed properly-she was so sad, scared and down that it was hard to really root for her character like you did with Judy Garland's Dorothy. I get it was 2 different concepts, but it just didn't work artistically nor did it find a huge audience until later[[which was also true of the Wizard of Oz, which really took off after yearly television showings).

[Circa 1824]

The proposed JB biopic was different as being very personal to her. Perhaps her insistence that she at least co-produce the film stems from insecurities regarding how The Wiz turned out.

Oh my Lord, she wanted to coproduce a major motion picture???? What a delusional woman.

[monicarivers]

Oh my Lord, she wanted to coproduce a major motion picture???? What a delusional woman.

Good lord I hope this is sarcasm. Diana was the executive producer of Out of Darkness which holds a 7.7/10 rating on IMDB and garnered her a Golden Globe nomination.

[midnightman]

For all Diana’s bravado regarding filming The Wiz, i think the tidal wave of negative, critical comment she received really burnt her. She was simply not use to failure.
I have always thought this was one of the reasons she was reluctant to commit to any further film projects.
The proposed JB biopic was different as being very personal to her. Perhaps her insistence that she at least co-produce the film stems from insecurities regarding how The Wiz turned out.

I can only imagine what she was going through. After so many years of success... I mean after slowly climbing to the top with the Supremes, she experienced, like, almost 15 years of unprecedented success only for "The Wiz" to be her first real flop since becoming a superstar. You're right, that probably did play a part in how she found herself burnt out from Hollywood at that time. I still argue she probably shouldn't have taken the role. I can see it being a hit if the cast was Stephanie Mills, Michael Jackson, Nipsey Russell and Ted Ross. Not that I'm blaming Diana for the failure either but I just don't think she fit the role.

That's not to say she didn't have great vocal moments in it. I love her version of "Home" [[though I prefer Stephanie and Whitney's versions over her, still her version is a showstopper too, that goes into how great the song is and how great all three were as singers) and, like you mentioned, "A Brand New Day" was really good. I need to listen to her solo version.

[midnightman]

Good lord I hope this is sarcasm. Diana was the executive producer of Out of Darkness which holds a 7.7/10 rating on IMDB and garnered her a Golden Globe nomination.

Oh shock, Circa is not as big a Diana Ross fan as he let on... lol
Diana was also the executive producer of Double Platinum and, I think, the Motown 40 ABC documentary [[I think anyway).

[khansperac]

"A Brand New Day" was really good. I need to listen to her solo version.

Regarding the “Diana Ross sings songs from the Wiz” project. Although production was unfinished, I thought her interpretations were brilliant. I was most looking forward to “Brand new day” because it’s one of my favorites, and if I must say, one of the best musical production numbers of all time. I was so disappointed in her solo attempt. I know it was unfinished, but she totally missed the mark. There was no excitement, it was very lackluster. It really needed background voices. But even if she had background voices, it still wouldn’t have been much better.

[midnightman]

Regarding the “Diana Ross sings songs from the Wiz” project. Although production was unfinished, I thought her interpretations were brilliant. I was most looking forward to “Brand new day” because it’s one of my favorites, and if I must say, one of the best musical production numbers of all time. I was so disappointed in her solo attempt. I know it was unfinished, but she totally missed the mark. There was no excitement, it was very lackluster. It really needed background voices. But even if she had background voices, it still wouldn’t have been much better.

Aww that sucks...

[khansperac]

Aww that sucks...

Have you never heard this project 🤔 lol. If not, give it a listen. It is fascinating. She does something I didn’t think was possible. She out sung herself on “be a lion”. It’s better than the movie/soundtrack version believe it or not. IMO. Just keep in mind, most of the tracks are unfinished/ no background parts. But what’s there is some of the most creative stuff she’s done. She sings them in character instead of just singing them.

[monicarivers]

Have you never heard this project 🤔 lol. If not, give it a listen. It is fascinating. She does something I didn’t think was possible. She out sung herself on “be a lion”. It’s better than the movie/soundtrack version believe it or not. IMO. Just keep in mind, most of the tracks are unfinished/ no background parts. But what’s there is some of the most creative stuff she’s done. She sings them in character instead of just singing them.

“The Feeling That We Have” is incredible- reminds me of the vocal highs from her 1979 Caesars Palace show.

[TheMotownManiac]

I actually liked The Lucy Show very much especially when Vivian Vance was still on the show. They certainly couldn't remake I Love Lucy but the Lucy Show held up until Viv left and then Gale Gordon took over what essentially was the Ricky role which made Lucy Carmichael more into a scatterbrain getting him all riled up. Here's Lucy was the one that was disappointing to me. The Wiz was just not directed properly and as much as I love Diana Ross and see her est intentions, she was miscast and was not directed properly-she was so sad, scared and down that it was hard to really root for her character like you did with Judy Garland's Dorothy. I get it was 2 different concepts, but it just didn't work artistically nor did it find a huge audience until later[[which was also true of the Wizard of Oz, which really took off after yearly television showings).

I’m glad you like The Lucy Show I know another person who does also. I like the ones with Ann sothern and Ethel Merman, other than that,……. I like here’s Lucy better because Desi Junior was so hot. But Lucy Junior was so annoying. I think Miss Ross should stick to acting. The scenes they printed that Tony Richardson did in mahogany were very impressive. There’s a difference between being allowed to do some thing, and doing it well. I don’t consider diana ross a visionary when it comes to film or music. She certainly was a visionary as far as the appearance of the supremes went. She knows how to work a stage as well or better than anyone anywhere but that doesn’t make her a movie producer. Being the executive producer of something generally means you didn’t have any hands-on creative decisions, but maybe help put the production together. I always believed the reason why Josephine Baker didn’t get made was her insistence on producing the film. I can’t imagine meetings with Barry Diller trying to have a savvy conversation about movie production with Diana Ross. Well, actually I can, but don’t to. She just didn’t have enough experience and her instincts were iffy at best. It’s like when Desi left the Lucy show, in my opinion it went from bad to unwatchable. Soon Gary Martin was producing Lucy and it was their cool cooperative genius that brought the disaster of disasters, Life With Lucy. Lucy was an actress, and nothing more. She mined that character for all it was worth And milked it dry, but there’s a reason You never see them and no one ever talks about them.

[midnightman]

Have you never heard this project �� lol. If not, give it a listen. It is fascinating. She does something I didn’t think was possible. She out sung herself on “be a lion”. It’s better than the movie/soundtrack version believe it or not. IMO. Just keep in mind, most of the tracks are unfinished/ no background parts. But what’s there is some of the most creative stuff she’s done. She sings them in character instead of just singing them.

I heard about it. Just hadn't listened to many tracks from it.

I'm gonna listen to her version of "The Feeling We Once Had" and "Be a Lion" right afterwards.

[RanRan79]

REALLY ? The Black Panthers film compared to the Wiz ?? Why ?
Believe it or not, The Wizard of Oz was a box office bomb when it was released in 1939..
It was re-released The Wizard of Oz in 1949 for its 10th anniversary and it eventually became a profitable film for the studio, and it added $1.5 million to its box office.
I would say the Wiz is probably more comparable to that.

Excellent point about the Wizard Of Oz.

[RanRan79]

Ran, I think this person definitely was being a bit racist. Black films definitely make bread. WAITING TO EXHALE proved that in 1995!

The Color Purple was even earlier than that.

[RanRan79]

my young niece who is now a brilliant school teacher, when she finally found out that my obsessions were Diana Ross and David Bowie, told me that she loved them.. Her pop music growing up was the 90's Britney Spears, Backstreet Boys etc.. so I asked how could she love them..like millions of kids her age, cable movies helped to 'baby sit ' her,and her two go to classics of cable were box office bombs that young America grew up watching over and over..Ross in The Wiz and Bowie in Labyrinth neither of which I was able to sit through from start to finish.. about a decade ago at work, a young man of color was sitting at a table with a few of us older folks, and when I started to talk about ' when Diana Ross left The Supremes.." he said, "Diana Ross was in The Supremes?" and a handful of us looked at each other and laughed.. Yes, he knew her primarily as The Wiz!! what can I tell ya? [[like my niece, he loved it./.)

The Wiz and Labyrinth. My childhood.:cool:

[RanRan79]

Diana had some strong vocals in the movie especially with home but I always relate to the song " A Brand New Day" from the Wiz. Quincy, Diana, Michael, Ted and Nipsey were at the top of their game on this one.


https://youtu.be/zy8dUJEOqos?t=82

That's my favorite scene in the movie. There's a point where Diana is letting loose vocally during this scene that I thought for a time that it was Stephanie Mills given a crumb of participation until I realized, nope, that's Ross tearing it up.

[RanRan79]

For all Diana’s bravado regarding filming The Wiz, i think the tidal wave of negative, critical comment she received really burnt her. She was simply not use to failure.
I have always thought this was one of the reasons she was reluctant to commit to any further film projects.
The proposed JB biopic was different as being very personal to her. Perhaps her insistence that she at least co-produce the film stems from insecurities regarding how The Wiz turned out.

I've participated in the various discussions in this forum that have popped up from time to time regarding the lack of Diana's acting career, but I don't believe I've ever contemplated the aspect you present here Ollie. It's an excellent point to consider. I'm thinking this is exactly what happened.

[RanRan79]

Regarding the “Diana Ross sings songs from the Wiz” project. Although production was unfinished, I thought her interpretations were brilliant. I was most looking forward to “Brand new day” because it’s one of my favorites, and if I must say, one of the best musical production numbers of all time. I was so disappointed in her solo attempt. I know it was unfinished, but she totally missed the mark. There was no excitement, it was very lackluster. It really needed background voices. But even if she had background voices, it still wouldn’t have been much better.

I was impressed with the ballads. She sung the hell out of "Feeling We Once Had", "Be A Lion", and "Wonder, Wonder Why". "Believe In Yourself" is a pleasant listen, although I hope that a final vocal would've eventually been cut where she gives the song the same intensity as she did the other ballads I mentioned. "He's the Wizard" has this really sexy vibe that, without the silly vocals, might- might- have worked as a single. But some of the cuts it's glaringly obvious they were demos and needed more work. But she turned in some fantastic vocal performances on others.

[midnightman]

The Color Purple was even earlier than that.

Dag, I forgot about The Color Purple! You're right.

[khansperac]

Dag, I forgot about The Color Purple! You're right.

Don’t forget “Purple Rain” which was released before that.

[midnightman]

Don’t forget “Purple Rain” which was released before that.

Lol when I think of certain times black films dominate, I can forget lol but yeah Purple Rain raked in the bucks when it came out in 1984... how Prince pulled that off is astonishing looking back!

[Jimi LaLumia]

the young ones who grew up with The Wiz [[and Labyrinth) watched the films with no knowledge or expectations or knowledge of Ross [[or Bowie) they just watched the films at face value and loved them..the older fans came with the grocery lists of expectations which just could not be met..welcome to the world of aging..

[sup_fan]

it's not uncommon for films that were minimally successful at time of release [[or even flops) to find second lives.

Rocky Horror Picture Show
Mommie Dearest
Xanadu
The Wiz

If you look at any of these, and in this case The Wiz, there's typically a long list of "problems" when comparing the work to a traditionally successful film. The cinematography might be for shit, over-the-top acting, insane directorial decisions. Sometimes you gotta just wonder if the producers, director and staff were simply working through mountains of cocaine to come up with this degree of lunacy.

But people don't always expect celluloid masterpieces with everything they watch.

Escapism, fantasy, goofy fun. all of these can make for an enjoyable experience

[RanRan79]

But people don't always expect celluloid masterpieces with everything they watch.

Escapism, fantasy, goofy fun. all of these can make for an enjoyable experience

You would think this is a radical concept. That's why I rarely- if ever- pay attention to professional critics when it comes to movies. Sometimes a movie is just a movie. Lose yourself in it for about 90 or so minutes and then move on. The musical scenes in the movie are among the best I've seen in any movie musical.

[sup_fan]

exactly. there's a huge range of categories and genres and each has their value.

Mommie Dearest - was built out as a "serious" drama but is loved today as high camp. it's provided so much fan and audience fun

Xanadu - what a train wreck, when viewed as a traditional musical like Singing In The Rain or Sound of Music. But holy fuck lolol what a hysterical rainy-day, lounge out on the couch with a pizza and wine and laugh your head off at the clearly cocaine induced nonsense lol

[midnightman]

All four of them are seen as camp films because there were SOME redeeming qualities about these films. I guess in The Wiz's case, it was the music, choreography and the costumes [[especially in the Emerald scene). The LGBT community in particular are fond of The Wiz film for this very reason [[not to mention Diana starred in the film, which was a BIG get for why it's lasted).

Rocky Horror, I never got what was so bad about it, I actually thought the acting was well done, as over the top as it was, plus I'm probably biased because even though I wasn't born when it came out, it was always my favorite film to watch during Halloween season when VH1 would air it [[I do think the script could've been more fleshed out though especially with Frank).

Xanadu was just too over the top lol plus Olivia Newton John! That's almost enough for that film to be campy.

Mommie Dearest was Faye Dunaway's best role. It was as much comedy as it was drama though the subject matter of child abuse is pretty real.

I think in a sense, Whatever Happened to Baby Jane also falls in that camp category.

What separates The Wiz from the others mentioned is probably the acting. Like I said, they had Diana's Dorothy looking like a frightened animal the whole time lol even in scenes where she wasn't supposed to be frightened. I kept thinking "someone really didn't like Diana doing this and just decided to make her look more and more miserable".

Shanice Williams and Stephanie Mills in the original musical were more animated, as was Judy Garland when they played Dorothy.

[khansperac]

In the black community, the Wiz is not a camp classic. It is just a classic.

[midnightman]

In the black community, the Wiz is not a camp classic. It is just a classic.

I just mentioned LGBT lol

I know it's considered a classic in the black community. I mean, it's The Wiz. One of the few musicals where many blacks actually proved they love to see a Broadway play.

I'm sorry but I have to post Stephanie Mills' Broadway version of Home here lol

This is how important The Wiz is to black people:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GXUigiTOVQM

[Ollie9]

exactly. there's a huge range of categories and genres and each has their value.

Mommie Dearest - was built out as a "serious" drama but is loved today as high camp. it's provided so much fan and audience fun

Xanadu - what a train wreck, when viewed as a traditional musical like Singing In The Rain or Sound of Music. But holy fuck lolol what a hysterical rainy-day, lounge out on the couch with a pizza and wine and laugh your head off at the clearly cocaine induced nonsense lol

I tend to think of Mommie-Dearest as a kind of Whatever Happened To Baby Jane. Both have huge camp appeal in being extremely theatrical.
Xanadu is indeed a train wreck. It’s so bad it’s good lol. Music is great though.
Fans have posted about 70’s audience expectations of The Wiz. I think the main expectation was the hope of seeing a decent movie. I remember showing the film to my nieces in the 90’s when they were young. They lost interest after the first 30 mins. There was simply no magic.

[RanRan79]

In the black community, the Wiz is not a camp classic. It is just a classic.

Absolutely, although it would be interesting to learn if this opinion falls within a certain age range. Growing up I don't remember too many of the adults being fond of the movie, but us kids were wowed by it, and continue to be so.

[RanRan79]

I just mentioned LGBT lol

I know it's considered a classic in the black community. I mean, it's The Wiz. One of the few musicals where many blacks actually proved they love to see a Broadway play.

I'm sorry but I have to post Stephanie Mills' Broadway version of Home here lol

This is how important The Wiz is to black people:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GXUigiTOVQM

Stephanie's version of "Home" from 1989 is to Black folks what "My Country Tis Of Thee" or "God Bless America" is to the US. Where "Lift Ev'ry Voice And Sing" is the Black National Anthem, "Home" is that second place winner.:)

The version she sings in the posted clip from the play isn't doing it for me, though. That same year she sang "Home" on a TV show, I think it was hosted by Sammy Davis Jr. She. Tore. It. Up. Stephanie Mills' voice is definitely one of our country's natural resources.

[RanRan79]

Fans have posted about 70’s audience expectations of The Wiz. I think the main expectation was the hope of seeing a decent movie. I remember showing the film to my nieces in the 90’s when they were young. They lost interest after the first 30 mins. There was simply no magic.

While the rest of us were mesmerized. I guess people see magic in different ways.

[Ollie9]

While the rest of us were mesmerized. I guess people see magic in different ways.

As regards the film, i can only share my own personal feelings and the reactions of friends and loved ones that i know.
The rest of us sounds like an awful lot of people, so perhaps i’m the one who has it wrong.

[Boogiedown]

As regards the film, i can only share my own personal feelings and the reactions of friends and loved ones that i know.
The rest of us sounds like an awful lot of people, so perhaps i’m the one who has it wrong.
lol!
Why Ollie, you don't purport your opinion to represent some entire 'community'!! :rolleyes:

I can say , for myself, I'm ambivalent about The Wiz. I'm not big on musicals in general though , with an exception here and there.
I'm ready to watch it again. If it were making the rounds on the big screen, I would definitely go. That would be cool in fact...watching with an audience...if we ever get back to being able to do such things....:[[

[jobeterob]

I was embarrassed that Diana was in The Wiz when it came out. How could that actress be in Lady Sings the Blues and descend to The Wiz. But then she goes back to Out of Darkness and a remarkable performance and then more fluff like Double Platinum.

But The Wiz has turned out to be the most recognizable Diana Ross movie and the music and her singing and memorable and the movie is loved by many.

I’m still not sure I understand why

[khansperac]

So after reading the recent comments in this thread, I started channel surfing and as I type, The Wiz is playing on the Starz movie channel. It’s been playing regularly lately. Here’s what I think. So many times people are so focused on the negatives. They are blinded to what people [[black People specifically) find so charming about it. Yes it may not be perfect, but there is so much more to celebrate than the negatives. The timeless story, The great music, the wonderful costumes, the talented dancers and choreography, and the LEGENDARY cast. Lena Horne, Diana Ross, Michael Jackson, Richard Pryor, Ted Ross, Nipsey Russell, Mabel King. So much black talent all around to marvel at.

[RanRan79]

As regards the film, i can only share my own personal feelings and the reactions of friends and loved ones that i know.
The rest of us sounds like an awful lot of people, so perhaps i’m the one who has it wrong.

Yes, you have it wrong.:p

Based on the comments that make up this entire thread, I think it's safe to say that reaction to The Wiz is varied from one extreme to the other. "The rest of us" is an awful lot of people, as I too can only state my personal opinion about the film and add in the reactions of the people I personally know [[and once knew) who enjoyed it. That's who "the rest of us" referenced. Did you really think I was suggesting you and your nieces were alone in your opinion after everything others have said in this thread?

[RanRan79]

So after reading the recent comments in this thread, I started channel surfing and as I type, The Wiz is playing on the Starz movie channel. It’s been playing regularly lately. Here’s what I think. So many times people are so focused on the negatives. They are blinded to what people [[black People specifically) find so charming about it. Yes it may not be perfect, but there is so much more to celebrate than the negatives. The timeless story, The great music, the wonderful costumes, the talented dancers and choreography, and the LEGENDARY cast. Lena Horne, Diana Ross, Michael Jackson, Richard Pryor, Ted Ross, Nipsey Russell, Mabel King. So much black talent all around to marvel at.

But I'm not sure I would say Black people in general. I still believe it's based on age; how old a person was at the time of the original release, or whether the person was even born yet [[as in my case). I'd also be curious to know if the movie is popular among other races using the same age criteria. I honestly don't know.

Focusing on the negative[[s) of a movie is just natural. That's how we as individuals ultimately pan a movie. While I never really watch The Wiz with a critical eye, I will say that after comments in this thread, as well as the article that prompted the thread's creation, I did begin to think more deeply about the movie and any flaws it may have. I must admit, as I said previously, I definitely agree that Lumet as director was probably a big mistake. I think one of the things that ultimately endeared the 1939 Wizard Of Oz to the public was the beautiful transition from black and white to color, and how the color portion of the film just...POPS. It's so beautiful. Contrast that to The Wiz's dark and drab filming. In studying some aspects of filmmaking, one of the first things one learns is that proper lighting is essential. It can definitely set a mood, and I don't think the lighting of The Wiz sets the mood of this fantastical movie going experience. It's lit more like the film might be lit if the entire focus of the film was Dorothy's life back in Harlem, where she never goes anywhere or does anything. I can see where this would lessen the experience of the point of film, where you're supposed to lose yourself in the fiction of it all.

Diana's look is another problem. And honestly, even as a kid, I always thought something was off here. She does look a bit older than 24. I think the afro has a lot to do with that. I know why they went with that decision, but either they should've styled the fro differently or given her an altogether different hairstyle that still screamed "Black". That drab colored dress...again colors should've been popping on the screen. Diana as Dorothy could not have been dressed as Diana Ross. Dorothy was supposed to be a timid, disappear in the background, "I hope no one notices me", young lady, so her dress wasn't meant to turn heads. But she could've had a dress that had color and looked great on screen yet still conveyed the same message regarding her style. And the silver slippers. Had they called the shoes "diamond slippers" I could probably let this go. But silver? Apparently the original story [[as in the book) had them as silver and they were only changed to ruby in the 1939 film. Again, I think the better decision would've been to change them back to ruby or another colored jewel as the color would come across more appealing than silver.

If I'm being critical, those are my critiques. Now the positives. The musical numbers. Aside from the darkness, I'd be interested in hearing the opinions about why anyone found the musical numbers boring. Diana was in fine vocal form. Michael was captivating. Nipsey Russell was nobody's singer IMO, but "What Would I Do If I Could Feel" is a gorgeous song. Lena Horne tore her song up. The others spotlights were equally as brilliant. Everything was well choreographed. What's not to love?

The criticism has been brought up that Diana looks scared all of the time: well she was supposed to be. Remember, back home Dorothy's life is school teaching and coming home to help Aunt Em. Nothing about her says she does any living beyond school, home, the grocery store and probably church. Hell, she's even afraid to go south of 125th Street. Now all of a sudden she's in this weird new world with shit talking that shouldn't be talking and moving and dancing and singing, plus there's a big fat ass witch trying to kill her. I'd look frightened all of the time too.

Finally there's the criticism that the movie is about a young girl. I personally LOVE the twist of The Wiz being about a young woman afraid of independence. Tons of young people go through this, are down right frightened by it, and so it would seem the story should have been able to resonate with people who understood Dorothy's fear. This wasn't a story about a kid trying to find her way. That had been done before. This was about a young woman on a self discovery journey. And by movie's end she discovered she could make it on her own, rely on herself, and kick the ass of fear. What more was there to want from the film?

[khansperac]

Ran I agree. Didn’t mean to imply all black people. Just black people that enjoy it. My criticism of the film is the same as yours. The lighting is off. I also feel they made Diana look older than she did in real life. Just take a look at how young and how good she looks on the cover of the “Diana sings song from the Wiz” project. The lighting is much better and she looks great. As great as Mabel King was, I feel the witch would have been much better with a different costume. Something more witchy. Also why only one appearance? In the original, the witch was featured several times. This lead to the suspense.

Like I mentioned earlier, I get over all of this looking at all the gifted black dancers and performances. The music is top notch, and these legendary actors/singers are wonderful. For me I could watch the “Brand new Day” part of the film over and over. Just excellence all around. One of the best cinematic musical numbers of all time.

[RanRan79]

Ran I agree. Didn’t mean to imply all black people. Just black people that enjoy it. My criticism of the film is the same as yours. The lighting is off. I also feel they made Diana look older than she did in real life. Just take a look at how young and how good she looks on the cover of the “Diana sings song from the Wiz” project. The lighting is much better and she looks great. As great as Mabel King was, I feel the witch would have been much better with a different costume. Something more witchy. Also why only one appearance? In the original, the witch was featured several times. This lead to the suspense.

Like I mentioned earlier, I get over all of this looking at all the gifted black dancers and performances. The music is top notch, and these legendary actors/singers are wonderful. For me I could watch the “Brand new Day” part of the film over and over. Just excellence all around. One of the best cinematic musical numbers of all time.

Agree 1000 percent. And you're right about the witch, both the costume and the limited appearance, although Mabel's number stops the show. Also like you, I'm of the opinion that "Brand New Day" is one of the best musical numbers of any musical movie ever.

I used to watch The Wiz at Thanksgiving. I haven't done that tradition in a few years, although I intended to do it in 2018 but it got lost in the shuffle of holiday festivities and I made it a point to remember to do it in 2019 but ended up going back home for the holiday. I'm going to write a note to myself to revive the tradition this year and fight off the urge to watch my dvd right now.:D

[sansradio]

The scene in the film that captured my imagination was the Emerald City Sequence. It's a campy, flashy Ebony-Fashion-Fair-meets-drag-ball extravaganza with a zest, energy and color that I wish the rest of the film had matched. The music is funky and inspired; Quincy should be proud of his work here. And it's proven to be hella influential; no less than Beyoncé borrowed its fanfare for her Homecoming tour. It's a cultural moment cherished by so many, particularly in the Black/queer/intersectional communities.

[midnightman]

The Emerald City monologue and the Brand New Day part are my favorite scenes in the movie too!

[RanRan79]

The scene in the film that captured my imagination was the Emerald City Sequence. It's a campy, flashy Ebony-Fashion-Fair-meets-drag-ball extravaganza with a zest, energy and color that I wish the rest of the film had matched. The music is funky and inspired; Quincy should be proud of his work here. And it's proven to be hella influential; no less than Beyoncé borrowed its fanfare for her Homecoming tour. It's a cultural moment cherished by so many, particularly in the Black/queer/intersectional communities.

Quincy should definitely be proud. I wonder how he views the entire project today?

[Ollie9]

lol!
Why Ollie, you don't purport your opinion to represent some entire 'community'!! :rolleyes:

I can say , for myself, I'm ambivalent about The Wiz. I'm not big on musicals in general though , with an exception here and there.
I'm ready to watch it again. If it were making the rounds on the big screen, I would definitely go. That would be cool in fact...watching with an audience...if we ever get back to being able to do such things....:[[

I have seen it on the big screen Boogie, but in truth would probably not rush to see it again unless I was enticed. Having said that, A sing-a-long might just be fun......After a bottle of wine or two lol.

[Ollie9]

Yes, you have it wrong.:p

Based on the comments that make up this entire thread, I think it's safe to say that reaction to The Wiz is varied from one extreme to the other. "The rest of us" is an awful lot of people, as I too can only state my personal opinion about the film and add in the reactions of the people I personally know [[and once knew) who enjoyed it. That's who "the rest of us" referenced. Did you really think I was suggesting you and your nieces were alone in your opinion after everything others have said in this thread?

Well to be quite honest, referencing the rest of us does rather sound like everybody but me, but there you go. I believe a good or bad film is the same no matter what age you happen to be.
You mention it was natural for Diana to look scared in the movie. One of the films main failures as noted by most critics of the time was that in many of her scenes Dorothy acts like a five year old. Her reactions are those of a small child, as opposed to a scared and introverted adult.
I agree about the lighting. A good friend of mine who happens to be a lighting technician told me that who ever lit the film should be shot. Diana in particular was very badly lit on a couple of her early solos which made her look so much older.
I find the Brand New Day sequence and What Would I Do the best scenes in the film but that’s about it. Perhaps at some point in the future musical historians will be including The Wiz on their best of all time lists. I for one wont be holding my breath. :eek:

[RanRan79]

Well to be quite honest, referencing the rest of us does rather sound like everybody but me, but there you go.

I can see now how it might have come across that way. I could've worded it better. My apologies.


I believe a good or bad film is the same no matter what age you happen to be.

Each individual person is the arbiter of what good and bad in a film is. The point I made about age is that people of a certain age often cite the casting of Diana Ross in the role as a major turnoff. Many people expected Stephanie Mills to reprise the role she originated. For people like me, who were born after the film [[and from what I can tell, people who were children at the time of the film) didn't watch the movie with any expectations regarding casting. And of course we didn't watch the movie going "the lighting is off" and nitpicking issues. For us The Wiz was like the The Wizard Of Oz, a fantasy, something to get lost in. And for those of us who enjoy good music, The Wiz had plenty of that. So from my perspective there is a breakdown in how the movie is viewed between people of a certain age. Of course there were people who were adults at the time of original release who loved the movie, just like there are people born after the movie's release who loathe it. There isn't an absolute here.


You mention it was natural for Diana to look scared in the movie. One of the films main failures as noted by most critics of the time was that in many of her scenes Dorothy acts like a five year old. Her reactions are those of a small child, as opposed to a scared and introverted adult.

In what way specifically? I just don't see it the way it's been criticized. I imagine myself in the same position, and I'm not sorry to say but if there were talking scarecrows and tin men, lions bursting out of sculptures, flying, funky monkeys, some weird dude with inflatable pink jesters, pillars breaking off from the rest of the building to swallow me up, singing, dancing graffiti, and I had killed- even accidentally- someone I had never met, even if she was a witch, I'd be somewhere curled up crying for my mama. No lie. No joke. And did I mention there was a big ass witch chasing after her? I don't understand what fault there was in her reaction. If anything it wasn't as realistic as it should have been, which would have definitely been to react as a five year old.



Perhaps at some point in the future musical historians will be including The Wiz on their best of all time lists. I for one wont be holding my breath. :eek:

I wouldn't ask you to hold your breath, but I would remind you that the way history is viewed often changes. And if my theory is correct, that the love/hate ratio of The Wiz is broken down by year of birth, in the future there will be a great many musical/movie historians who hold The Wiz in high regard. Not to mention that they all have opinions and assholes like the rest of us. One weighs no more than any other.

[Ollie9]

I can see now how it might have come across that way. I could've worded it better. My apologies.



Each individual person is the arbiter of what good and bad in a film is. The point I made about age is that people of a certain age often cite the casting of Diana Ross in the role as a major turnoff. Many people expected Stephanie Mills to reprise the role she originated. For people like me, who were born after the film [[and from what I can tell, people who were children at the time of the film) didn't watch the movie with any expectations regarding casting. And of course we didn't watch the movie going "the lighting is off" and nitpicking issues. For us The Wiz was like the The Wizard Of Oz, a fantasy, something to get lost in. And for those of us who enjoy good music, The Wiz had plenty of that. So from my perspective there is a breakdown in how the movie is viewed between people of a certain age. Of course there were people who were adults at the time of original release who loved the movie, just like there are people born after the movie's release who loathe it. There isn't an absolute here.



In what way specifically? I just don't see it the way it's been criticized. I imagine myself in the same position, and I'm not sorry to say but if there were talking scarecrows and tin men, lions bursting out of sculptures, flying, funky monkeys, some weird dude with inflatable pink jesters, pillars breaking off from the rest of the building to swallow me up, singing, dancing graffiti, and I had killed- even accidentally- someone I had never met, even if she was a witch, I'd be somewhere curled up crying for my mama. No lie. No joke. And did I mention there was a big ass witch chasing after her? I don't understand what fault there was in her reaction. If anything it wasn't as realistic as it should have been, which would have definitely been to react as a five year old.



I wouldn't ask you to hold your breath, but I would remind you that the way history is viewed often changes. And if my theory is correct, that the love/hate ratio of The Wiz is broken down by year of birth, in the future there will be a great many musical/movie historians who hold The Wiz in high regard. Not to mention that they all have opinions and assholes like the rest of us. One weighs no more than any other.

To be honest, i’m really glad that there are folks out there who do get enjoyment from the film. As such, the project was not an entirely wasted opportunity.
Regarding her acting, i really do agree with the critics here. From the moment that naughty dog runs out of the apartment and throughout the entire playground scene with Miss One, her persona is more akin to a frightened five year old then a scared and shy introverted woman. There is a VAST difference between the two and it really should have been portrayed accordingly. For me it veers very close to being comical.
I agree in that there are no absolutes, but concur that it is possible the timeline it’s viewed in could possibly influence certain expectations of the movie.
The music of course is wonderful and certain scenes when taken out of context are actually rather good.
I don’t quite share your confidence that time will lend enchantment to the view, with the film one day being regarded as a musical classic. Never say never though.

[Boogiedown]

I have seen it on the big screen Boogie, but in truth would probably not rush to see it again unless I was enticed. Having said that, A sing-a-long might just be fun......After a bottle of wine or two lol.
Ha !
Not likely to happen anyway I reckon. Boy remember when there were theatres that just ran assorted films from the past....

[Ollie9]

Ha !
Not likely to happen anyway I reckon. Boy remember when there were theatres that just ran assorted films from the past....

There is a cinema quite near to where i live that screens films one might have missed during the year, [[nothing older) which is rather useful. I do remember LSTB & Mahogany being shown together during the late 80’s. There is a tv channel devoted to showing old, mostly black and white films which I love.
With the revival of interest in The Wiz, i’m surprised there has never been a special dvd edition featuring scenes that never made the final cut. Dorothy singing “Is This What Feeling Gets” being one. Dorothy killing Toto with a crossbow another........Just kidding. ;)

[vgalindo]

I remember being so excited at the time. With all the publicity and promotion. I could hardly wait to see it. I remember going with 6 of my friends from high school. I went to the first showing in my town. The lines at the theatre were long and wrapped around the block. It was sold out. It was so exciting!! Everyone at the theatre including my friends who went with me seemed to love it. But I was disappointed. I loved the music but was disappointed on the way Diana Ross looked. Instead of making her look younger she looked older. I really feel they had the wrong director. My aunt who also saw the Broadway show, loved the movie as well.

[RanRan79]

I don’t quite share your confidence that time will lend enchantment to the view, with the film one day being regarded as a musical classic. Never say never though.

Time has already changed the way the movie is viewed. I would say two generations have appeared since the movie's release. Doing a quick google search:

Rotten Tomatoes has the film at 42 percent official critic rating [[on 33 reviews), which puts it at a "rotten" rating. It's audience score, which is basically you and I and all the regular folks with opinions but don't receive pay checks to give them:p, is at 65 percent on 35,129 user reviews.

Metacritic has the film at 53 percent favorable, with 5 positive, 4 mixed, 2 negative reviews from critics.

IMDB has 5.4 rating on 13,439 user rating, which is broken down into: 15.9 percent for the highest rating of 10, 4.7 for 9, 8.5 for 8, 11.7 for 7, 14.6 for 6, 14.5 for 5, 10.1 for 4, 6.6 for 3, 5.4 for 2 stars, and 8.0 for the lowest rating of one.

And finally, 87 percent of Google users "liked this movie", according to Google.

So the paid critics raked this movie over the coals, yet today, the average viewer [[if one can conflate the average viewer with the average online user rater) finds the movie favorable. I'd say there has been a shift from 1978 to 2020.

And to tweak my original thoughts, I have to point out that even though people thought Dorothy was miscast, lots of people were still willing to give the film a chance, hence why it's opening night was jammed packed with people across the country willing to pay to see it. So I would say, to your point about the good or bad of the film, that watching the film was more of a negative for people than whatever reservations they had to Diana as Dorothy. At the time lots of people saw the movie and didn't like it.

[RanRan79]

With the revival of interest in The Wiz, i’m surprised there has never been a special dvd edition featuring scenes that never made the final cut. Dorothy singing “Is This What Feeling Gets” being one.

The Wiz has been popular enough that is has been released on every available home viewing method from VHS to Laserdisk to DVD to Bluray. Interest has only grown, not waned, I would think. But the 30th anniversary DVD release has extras, but no cut scenes. I assume any extra footage was lit on fire by Berry Gordy when he realized that the film was a financial and critical disaster.:cool:

[RanRan79]

I remember being so excited at the time. With all the publicity and promotion. I could hardly wait to see it. I remember going with 6 of my friends from high school. I went to the first showing in my town. The lines at the theatre were long and wrapped around the block. It was sold out. It was so exciting!! Everyone at the theatre including my friends who went with me seemed to love it. But I was disappointed. I loved the music but was disappointed on the way Diana Ross looked. Instead of making her look younger she looked older. I really feel they had the wrong director. My aunt who also saw the Broadway show, loved the movie as well.

My mother went to see it at the time of release. She didn't like it.

[khansperac]

Here is the Siskel and Ebert review of "The Wiz".

Starts at 16:55


https://youtu.be/ATvfHwi4ppc?t=1015

[Roberta75]

The Wiz has been popular enough that is has been released on every available home viewing method from VHS to Laserdisk to DVD to Bluray. Interest has only grown, not waned, I would think. But the 30th anniversary DVD release has extras, but no cut scenes. I assume any extra footage was lit on fire by Berry Gordy when he realized that the film was a financial and critical disaster.:cool:

It sure made money on VHS and DVD and Bluray release.

[vgalindo]

My mother went to see it at the time of release. She didn't like it.
My mother didn’t either. Lol.

[vgalindo]

Here is the Siskel and Ebert review of "The Wiz".

Starts at 16:55


https://youtu.be/ATvfHwi4ppc?t=1015
Thank you for sharing. Never saw this review before. It was nice to see a positive review.

[Ollie9]

So the paid critics raked this movie over the coals, yet today, the average viewer [[if one can conflate the average viewer with the average online user rater) finds the movie favorable. I'd say there has been a shift from 1978 to 2020.

And to tweak my original thoughts, I have to point out that even though people thought Dorothy was miscast, lots of people were still willing to give the film a chance, hence why it's opening night was jammed packed with people across the country willing to pay to see it. So I would say, to your point about the good or bad of the film, that watching the film was more of a negative for people than whatever reservations they had to Diana as Dorothy. At the time lots of people saw the movie and didn't like it.

Some interesting figures. Percentage wise, i do wonder how many of those people who left a review watched the movie the entire way through. :rolleyes:
Way back in ole 1978, Diana Ross’s star power was such that it would have been the main reason the vast majority of people went to see The Wiz in the first place. Her being miscast would never have kept people away.
The films main failing for me should be aimed at its director. He was not a musical director and filmed most scenes like you would a play. For me it ruined what should have been a magical experience.

[Ollie9]

My mother didn’t either. Lol.

My mother never saw it as it was not really her type of film. I wish she had.

[Ollie9]

I I loved the music but was disappointed on the way Diana Ross looked. Instead of making her look younger she looked older. I really feel they had the wrong director.

I rather was to . Being one of the worlds most glamorous women at the time, Dorothy/Diana looked for the most part awful in the film. Allowing for the fact this was not a glamour role, not only does she look older then her years, but unattractive as well. The bad lighting is a lot to blame, but then also the very unflattering hair style and dowdy costume. Surely this would have been evident during screen tests?.

[RanRan79]

Way back in ole 1978, Diana Ross’s star power was such that it would have been the main reason the vast majority of people went to see The Wiz in the first place. Her being miscast would never have kept people away.
The films main failing for me should be aimed at its director. He was not a musical director and filmed most scenes like you would a play. For me it ruined what should have been a magical experience.

Nothing to argue here. I agree with you 100 percent.

[vgalindo]

I rather was to . Being one of the worlds most glamorous women at the time, Dorothy/Diana looked for the most part awful in the film. Allowing for the fact this was not a glamour role, not only does she look older then her years, but unattractive as well. The bad lighting is a lot to blame, but then also the very unflattering hair style and dowdy costume. Surely this would have been evident during screen tests?.
I agree with you 💯 percent.

[jobeterob]

I remember it as being the darkest movie - all filmed at night or in the dark. Strange.

[midnightman]

Some interesting figures. Percentage wise, i do wonder how many of those people who left a review watched the movie the entire way through. :rolleyes:
Way back in ole 1978, Diana Ross’s star power was such that it would have been the main reason the vast majority of people went to see The Wiz in the first place. Her being miscast would never have kept people away.
The films main failing for me should be aimed at its director. He was not a musical director and filmed most scenes like you would a play. For me it ruined what should have been a magical experience.

Yeah Sidney Lumet wasn't cutting it.

[Ollie9]

It’s been a while, but i attempted to watch the film last night. Sadly i only lasted until Dorothy meets the lion as I was quite simply and utterly bored. It did remind me that one of the more fun scenes in the film is “Slide Some Oil”. Other then “Brand New Day”, its one of the very few times that Diana looks animated and actually smiles. It’s interesting that the Tin Man was given two solo numbers in succession. I find “I’m A Mean Ole Lion” the only tedious song in the film.
I agree with Job in that far to many scenes were filmed at night.
Fast forward, and John Badham’s instincts proved spookily prophetic indeed.

[RanRan79]

I won't be pulling it out until Thanksgiving. I'm going to try to remember to tell myself to watch with a critical eye instead of a nostalgic one.

[Ollie9]

I won't be pulling it out until Thanksgiving. I'm going to try to remember to tell myself to watch with a critical eye instead of a nostalgic one.

Don’t do that my friend...... Just continue to enjoy it as much as you always have. As you recently pointed out, “We all find magic in different places”. :)

[midnightman]

Ollie, that was my problem with the film overall. It just DRAGGED. I always changed the channel until it got to my favorite parts.

[Ollie9]

Ollie, that was my problem with the film overall. It just DRAGGED. I always changed the channel until it got to my favorite parts.

I read something online recently that totally sums the movie up for me. It read “The Wiz is a great musical but a lousy movie”. It’s the bits between the musical numbers that lets the film down dreadfully.
Out of curiosity what are your favourite parts?.

[midnightman]

I read something online recently that totally sums the movie up for me. It read “The Wiz is a great musical but a lousy movie”. It’s the bits between the musical numbers that lets the film down dreadfully.
Out of curiosity what are your favourite parts?.

The Emerald sequence [[I don't know if that's the right name)
Brand New Day scene after Evilene is "flushed down"
Diana singing "Home" at the end

[grangertim]

Ah, The Wiz.

Look, I love me my Miss Ross, but she was horribly miscast in this. The problem is that she played Dorothy as scared and timid; I suppose, "being 24", she had to. But Dorothy isn't just scared, she's meant to be inexperienced, and, sure, fear is part of that inexperience, but she's also supposed to have youthful optimism and curiosity, and it's this optimism and curiosity - pluck, if you will - that wins over and eventually gets her back to Kansas/Harlem. That youthful optimism and curiosity is completely lacking in Diana's performance.

I hadn't considered the direction in the movie before as being the cause of the movie to fail, the article calls the direction 'wooden'; it's an interesting point. I'll have to rewatch it and see [[I have not watched it for years).

But Diana's Sing Songs from The Wiz is magical. Her rendition of The Feeling That We Have is jaw-dropping, and has been in my favourites list ever since I downloaded the album. Imagine what an even older Miss Ross could do with it! Beyond that, I love how she characterises the delivery of each song on the album; you can almost picture her playing the characters.

[LoveSupreme]

I saw The Wiz on a holiday outing to the movies back in 1978. I was 10 years old and even at that age I knew a stinker when I saw one - - - and this was it. The film was so overblown and overproduced that obliterated the heart and core of the original story. It also didn't help that they changed "Dorothy" into a 24 year old virgin school teacher who is so scared of the world that she hasn't ventured south of 125th street. Say what? She wasn't just scared, she was downright having a hysterical tear filled nervous breakdown in every damn scene!! This adaptation was just wrong, wrong, wrong on most every single level except the score which was masterfully adapted by Mr. Quincy Jones. I love the soundtrack album - it's a winner. The film? Not so much.

[sup_fan]

part of what made the Wiz a dud IMO is the excessive self-help jargon and nonsense. some reviewer said instead of landing on and killing the Wicked Witch of the East, the house should have killed the Wicked Witch of EST.

Joel Schumacher did the screenplay and both he and Diana were big followers of Werner Erhard and EST. the film turned out too preachy for my taste

This is also a side of Diana's career that isn't my favorite - this "you're so wonderful i love you" theme. in the 70s, you really only had Reach Out and Touch and then Wiz. and in the 80s there wasn't too much of it. but gag - so many of 90s songs are in this vein:

You've given me the best years of my life
force behind the power
take me higher
one shining moment
if we hold on together
let's make every moment count
it's a wonderful life

the songs just get a bit too syrupy. And i tire of her doing I Will Survive. I get it - she likes these emotional, feeling songs. but i prefer other aspects of her career and styles of songs that she's done.

[SatansBlues]

part of what made the Wiz a dud IMO is the excessive self-help jargon and nonsense. some reviewer said instead of landing on and killing the Wicked Witch of the East, the house should have killed the Wicked Witch of EST.

Joel Schumacher did the screenplay and both he and Diana were big followers of Werner Erhard and EST. the film turned out too preachy for my taste

This is also a side of Diana's career that isn't my favorite - this "you're so wonderful i love you" theme. in the 70s, you really only had Reach Out and Touch and then Wiz. and in the 80s there wasn't too much of it. but gag - so many of 90s songs are in this vein:

You've given me the best years of my life
force behind the power
take me higher
one shining moment
if we hold on together
let's make every moment count
it's a wonderful life

the songs just get a bit too syrupy. And i tire of her doing I Will Survive. I get it - she likes these emotional, feeling songs. but i prefer other aspects of her career and styles of songs that she's done.
I think Diana has an overlooked spiritual side to her that people seem to miss. I grew up in a Baptist church in Michigan during the 80's, and right before our benediction, we would sing a verse of Reach Out and Touch while holding hands with people sitting around us so that everyone in the church is connected at that moment in service. Diana is not and has never been a gospel diva like Aretha or Patti, but she gets her point across with songs that touch upon her spirituality side.

[Ollie9]

This is also a side of Diana's career that isn't my favorite - this "you're so wonderful i love you" theme. in the 70s, you really only had Reach Out and Touch and then Wiz. and in the 80s there wasn't too much of it. but gag - so many of 90s songs are in this vein:
You've given me the best years of my life
force behind the power
take me higher
one shining moment
if we hold on together
let's make every moment count
it's a wonderful life

the songs just get a bit too syrupy. And i tire of her doing I Will Survive. I get it - she likes these emotional, feeling songs. but i prefer other aspects of her career and styles of songs that she's done.

I do find the “go for your dreams” thing a bit tiresome at times, but that’s Diana.
I’m surprised you consider “Force Behind The Power” and “Take Me Higher” as being syrupy. For me their two solid inspirational songs. Coming from an animated movie, “If We Hold On” is bound to be a little calorific
Personally i really dig a good message song. “All For One” and Voice Of The Heart” being just two. Gladys knights last two albums were very much in that inspirational vein and work very well.
I agree in that some of those 90’s ballads did tend to fall on the sugary side. Not quite rot your teeth standard, but sweet all the same.

[sup_fan]

I do find the “go for your dreams” thing a bit tiresome at times, but that’s Diana.
I’m surprised you consider “Force Behind The Power” and “Take Me Higher” as being syrupy. For me their two solid inspirational songs. Coming from an animated movie, “If We Hold On” is bound to be a little calorific
Personally i really dig a good message song. “All For One” and Voice Of The Heart” being just two. Gladys knights last two albums were very much in that inspirational vein and work very well.
I agree in that some of those 90’s ballads did tend to fall on the sugary side. Not quite rot your teeth standard, but sweet all the same.

i'm probably just a bit too cynical! lolol And i think my problem with these songs is that they were used as "big" single in many cases. Especially when Diana was in a bit of a more precarious position [[in terms of US sales and chart performance). when they released Take Me Higher, i think the title track was too "inspirational" to really hit with the US record buying public. A more traditional song might have worked better.

[Ollie9]

i'm probably just a bit too cynical! lolol And i think my problem with these songs is that they were used as "big" single in many cases. Especially when Diana was in a bit of a more precarious position [[in terms of US sales and chart performance). when they released Take Me Higher, i think the title track was too "inspirational" to really hit with the US record buying public. A more traditional song might have worked better.

Can anything ever be to inspirational lol. In truth, Diana could have recorded the most commercial song in the history of music and it would not have hit in America. At that point they were simply not interested in playing or buying her music. I think she should have focussed all her promotional efforts on Europe where she was still musically relevant and scoring hits.

[sup_fan]

Can anything ever be to inspirational lol. In truth, Diana could have recorded the most commercial song in the history of music and it would not have hit in America. At that point they were simply not interested in playing or buying her music. I think she should have focussed all her promotional efforts on Europe where she was still musically relevant and scoring hits.

i think there might have been some opportunities. she might have been able to get some chart action with I Will Survive.

if not that, then i think she definitely should have done Carry On from her final motown album. that was right when Cher had hit big with Believe and so i think she might have been able to ride the coattails of that a bit. carry On is a very different sound but still a "hot dance song from an old legend" idea. and Diana sings the HELL out of the song.

and, ironically, lol it has an inspirational message too lol

[Rafalle]

After « Workin’ Overtime », both because it bombed and because Diana made it worse by insisting on the title track [[just plain horrible to listen to) being the lead single, rather than the only actual decent tune on the album « Bottom Line », Motown stopped servicing her new releases to any radio stations other than R&B/Black and AC. So, two years later, « When You Tell Me... » was chosen as the lead single of « The Force Behind The Power » album, thankfully ahead of the, once again, ghastly title track. It charted on the AC chart in the US and of course, hit no2 on the pop charts in England, Scotland and Ireland! Motown were quite simply not expecting or even hoping that Diana could return to the pop charts in the US. All her albums thru the rest of the 90s were, sad to say, completely ignored by mainstream radio. She didn’t help matters by deciding to, more or less, not ever appear to promote her latest single. Motown were not interested in pushing her and she wasn’t interested in pushing herself. As far as the general public we’re concerned, she had married a Norwegian billionaire, had the two boys, tried to come back with « Workin’ Overtime », failed, failed again when she popped up again for the « Return To Love » fiasco, got busted, and then retired! Phew!

[sup_fan]

the whole marketing and release schedule around Force was a clusterfuck. I saw her show in Columbus Ohio with her tour but you couldn't get the album yet!! there was some delay with getting it out there and so the tour schedule didn't sync with the cd release

then in Randy's book he talks about the fact they would release a song then abandon it and release another one.

i completely agree with you regarding WO. MAYBE had the used Bottom Line as the lead single, the project could have been somewhat salvaged. it's still a bad album but she probably would have at least charted with BL. I definitely think top 40, maybe squeak into the top 20. and dance and r&b would have done well. She wouldn't have been enjoying chart hits like in 1980 and 81 but at least she would have bombing.

[Rafalle]

When I first heard the album, WO, « Bottom Line » had me humming along on the first listen. It was catchy. It was sassy. A real follow up to « Upside Down ». And if it had been given a bit of a dance-disco remix especially... I would imagine it might have reached the top 20 US Pop chart. Diana was still current at that point, and so many people, in the industry and with the general public, wanted her to come back with a bang. The actual lead single killed the whole thing.

[Ollie9]

Motown were not interested in pushing her and she wasn’t interested in pushing herself. As far as the general public we’re concerned, she had married a Norwegian billionaire, had the two boys, tried to come back with « Workin’ Overtime », failed, failed again when she popped up again for the « Return To Love » fiasco, got busted, and then retired! Phew!

Perhaps that should read as far as the AMERICAN public were concerned Rafalle. Throughout Europe Diana was still clocking up the hits and much in demand. Other then with WO, i don’t think she can really be accused of not promoting her latest singles. She worked hard promoting “Take Me Higher” on American tv but still the USA refused to bite.

[sup_fan]

in the US there is a sort of "shelf life" to an artist. It's one thing for an artist that was popular with your big brother or sister to reinvent themselves and appeal to the younger siblings.

it's another thing though for someone your PARENTS listened to [[or worse your grandparents!!) to break through with the current teen market. not impossible but very very challenging. especially for women

[Ollie9]

in the US there is a sort of "shelf life" to an artist. It's one thing for an artist that was popular with your big brother or sister to reinvent themselves and appeal to the younger siblings.

it's another thing though for someone your PARENTS listened to [[or worse your grandparents!!) to break through with the current teen market. not impossible but very very challenging. especially for women

Its interesting to compare the different mindsets of both countries. The UK seems always to have remained loyal to veteran artists.
Having said that, in this instance the American public suddenly turning cold on Diana may not have been entirely an age thing. During the early 80’s and just prior to the DG book she was generally clocking up more hits in America then in the UK. It’s a well trodden road, but given her enduring popularity at the time, i have never really believed that age was that big a factor in the sudden and dramatic turnaround of her popularity.

[George Solomon]

I had a discussion with a friend at RCA back in 1985 when they were initially having a hard time promoting "Missing You" to the pop market. He said, "She's like 40 years old!" When I said, it shouldn't matter because she sounds and looks great. He agreed but said, "that might be the case but she's been around forever and it's getting harder to sell her to pop radio." Imagine that... 40 years old. I'd kill for 40! LOL.

[Rafalle]

Tina, Barbra, Cher, Patti all managed it thru’ the 80s. When RCA dropped her from their Pop promo list, after « Eaten Alive », awful song, unnecessarily smutty, ruined by Barry Gibb’s horrendous screeching, it was an admission that there was no point in carrying on. Diana kept on making terrible artistic decisions, no one could tell her otherwise, and she wouldn’t get out there and sell herself as a sweetie anymore. Part of her success in the early 70s was due to the fact that she was America’s first Black sweetheart: she was gorgeous, just so nice and sexy too. By 85, when she did appear on TV, she had her mane of unbrushed hair and her strident replies to questions. The only real exception was TMH: perfect lead single, cool video, Beautiful hair and oh so sexy little black dress, super hot appearance on Letterman. And Motown did promote it on the dance charts, with no1 success. But they didn’t bother pushing it to pop radio. There had been too many years of arguing for them to want it to do well.

[Roberta75]

I had a discussion with a friend at RCA back in 1985 when they were initially having a hard time promoting "Missing You" to the pop market. He said, "She's like 40 years old!" When I said, it shouldn't matter because she sounds and looks great. He agreed but said, "that might be the case but she's been around forever and it's getting harder to sell her to pop radio." Imagine that... 40 years old. I'd kill for 40! LOL.

Its a real sexist world. Nobody called Mick Jagger old or said hes been around forever.

[Ollie9]

I had a discussion with a friend at RCA back in 1985 when they were initially having a hard time promoting "Missing You" to the pop market. He said, "She's like 40 years old!" When I said, it shouldn't matter because she sounds and looks great. He agreed but said, "that might be the case but she's been around forever and it's getting harder to sell her to pop radio." Imagine that... 40 years old. I'd kill for 40! LOL.

Its funny, but I remember when 40 seemed very old indeed lol. Time waits for no man.
Regarding age and pop appeal, it’s worth noting that the previous year at a very mature [[in pop years) 39, Diana managed one top ten and two top twenty USA single hits. “Telephone” reached 13 on the R&B chart and “Swept Away”managed a very respectable top thirty placing.
Given the fact that Diana was not just another singer, but in fact an esteemed American music icon, then surely her sudden fall from grace encompassed a lot more then just hitting the big four ‘O’.

[midnightman]

Its funny, but I remember when 40 seemed very old indeed lol. Time waits for no man.
Regarding age and pop appeal, it’s worth noting that the previous year at a very mature [[in pop years) 39, Diana managed one top ten and two top twenty USA single hits. “Telephone” reached 13 on the R&B chart and “Swept Away”managed a very respectable top thirty placing.
Given the fact that Diana was not just another singer, but in fact an esteemed American music icon, then surely her sudden fall from grace encompassed a lot more then just hitting the big four ‘O’.

Diana was 40-41 during the "Swept Away" era. She was 39 when "Ross", a flop, came out.

She was also dealing with the fallout of Motown 25, the PR baggage after doing the second Central Park concert and other issues. When Eaten Alive came out, RCA had a hard time selling it because folks were growing tired of the Bee Gees, a little tired of MJ and didn't know what to do with Diana.

Maybe if Lionel Richie had fully produced "Eaten Alive" and released it under a different title, it would've continued her success in the '80s. Like it was said, Tina, Barbra, Cher, Patti [[and Aretha) managed to survive the changing times in ways Diana didn't.

[Ollie9]

Diana was 40-41 during the "Swept Away" era. She was 39 when "Ross", a flop, came out.

She was also dealing with the fallout of Motown 25, the PR baggage after doing the second Central Park concert and other issues. When Eaten Alive came out, RCA had a hard time selling it because folks were growing tired of the Bee Gees, a little tired of MJ and didn't know what to do with Diana.

Maybe if Lionel Richie had fully produced "Eaten Alive" and released it under a different title, it would've continued her success in the '80s. Like it was said, Tina, Barbra, Cher, Patti [[and Aretha) managed to survive the changing times in ways Diana didn't.

Yes, she was 40 in 84, a veteran artist but still racking up hit singles. That was my point. “Chain Reaction’ was a smash hit all over the world. Even as the second single after the fluff of EA it still managed to reach the top position in the UK. It was simply that good. After SA, the American record buying public turned their collective backs on her and never stopped to look back. For a music icon it was a drastic turnaround. I have never really thought it was just an age thing.

[Circa 1824]

I’ve said it before, Diana forgot what made her famous in the first place. She mistakenly thought it was only and all about her. When she began to figure it out, it was too late. It was over.

Ross traveled the road as a superstar, a has-been, and now a classic artist.

[RanRan79]

I think Diana has an overlooked spiritual side to her that people seem to miss. I grew up in a Baptist church in Michigan during the 80's, and right before our benediction, we would sing a verse of Reach Out and Touch while holding hands with people sitting around us so that everyone in the church is connected at that moment in service. Diana is not and has never been a gospel diva like Aretha or Patti, but she gets her point across with songs that touch upon her spirituality side.

Her grandfather was a preacher. She has said that she saw herself going into the ministry at some point. I think she's always had it in her to inspire. There's no telling how much good she might do if she actually did pursue this, especially if she were willing to be honest and forthright about her own life and experiences. There are a lot of young women she may be able to reach. Until then, Diana has always seemed to gravitate toward inspirational messages in her songs. While there was a point in time when I personally didn't care for these types of songs [[I remember when I used to hate "Reach Out and Touch", now it's one of my absolute favs), I love many of them today.

[RanRan79]

Its funny, but I remember when 40 seemed very old indeed lol. Time waits for no man.
Regarding age and pop appeal, it’s worth noting that the previous year at a very mature [[in pop years) 39, Diana managed one top ten and two top twenty USA single hits. “Telephone” reached 13 on the R&B chart and “Swept Away”managed a very respectable top thirty placing.
Given the fact that Diana was not just another singer, but in fact an esteemed American music icon, then surely her sudden fall from grace encompassed a lot more then just hitting the big four ‘O’.

Yeah, it's called "Her music stinks, she's been around for 20 years, and there are younger, more relevant women taking up the slack Diana's suck years have left us with.".

Remember, until 1964, Diana [[and the Supremes) were irrelevant to the world of music, and then BOOM! 1964 comes and they tiptoe into relevancy with "Lovelight" and then explode with "Where". From 1964-1970, there was never a year when Diana's voice wasn't on a number one record. Motown basically bungled the singles for 1971, but the following year she had a hit movie and a hit soundtrack to go along with it. 1973 brought her success with the Marvin duets and TMITM, including another #1. She managed another hit with "Last Time" later that year, but the album wasn't well received. 1975 brings another hit movie and a #1 hit to go along with it. The following year brings "Love Hangover" and then the launching of a major stage show that eventually makes it way to television and Broadway. While Baby It's Me ended up a critical success but was devoid of hit records, and Ross 78 was almost unnecessary, The Boss took off. And then of course, the year after that, 1980, saw diana80 and it's huge success, in addition to the success of "It's My Turn". In 1981 Diana left Motown with one of the biggest selling songs of the year in "Endless Love". At RCA, Diana largely allowed her talents to be misused on songs that did not fit her [[my opinion, but I stand by it), yet she still managed to have hit records in 1981, 1982, 1984 and 1985, with two or three major selling albums. Most women in the industry would have killed for this kind of resume. But then EA happens, and she follows that up with RHRAB, whose album contents didn't exactly live up to the title of the album. She takes the largest break of her career and then reappears with WO. Meanwhile, during that break, Whitney and Janet and Jody and Madonna and a slew of other younger, trendsetting ladies were ruling the charts. Diana's goose was cooked.

So was it "40" pushing her out? I think it's a combo of that. Had she been ten years younger, I think the industry and the public may have forgiven her duds and absence and accepted her if she was making music that the public found generally good. But she wasn't 30, she was over 40, and the music wasn't largely well thought of. EA could have been forgiven had she rebounded with a much more relevant type album than RHRAB, working with current hitmaking producers, and then from there it would've been interesting to see how long Diana could prolong her relevancy. But she was way past the point where she could be forgiven 2 dud albums, horrible singles, a long break, and then rebound with another dud album and questionable singles. While Sup is exactly right, the US has a weird thing about shelf life for most artists, Diana's shelf life was shortened by her own horrible career decisions.

I still maintain Mary Wilson's book had nothing to do with it.

[RanRan79]

Tina, Barbra, Cher, Patti all managed it thru’ the 80s.

And they all did so by keeping themselves relevant and staying true to themselves at the same time. At RCA Diana floated between her normal lane and trying to compete with the new kids. One can forgive her trying to compete- it's a business after all- but where Patti found producers who could give her relevant music and still keep her Patti, Diana didn't do that. Sometimes she was almost unrecognizable. I don't know if the four women you mention were managing themselves, but Diana was making all of her creative decisions. Contrast that to the period of her career when she wasn't totally in charge of decisions and you get an idea of what really went wrong. Some people have no business managing themselves.

[Rafalle]

She had no business managing herself! It’s true. But we all love her so much, and we could see that if Berry hadn’t been so abusive - emotionally, psychologically and financially, then she most probably wouldn’t have needed to or wanted to. By the time that she stopped worrying about costs and micromanaging everything and started leaving decisions to others, say by 1991, the record industry, at RCA and then Motown had decided she was a goner. It must have been a very tough time for her. Over in the U.K, EMI always treated her like the pop royalty she is and the chart results speak for themselves.

[sup_fan]

i think it was a combination of things that impacted her sales 1984 and on

1. poor quality of music - let's face it. the SA album is only so-so and after that, she released 3 that are questionable. yes, yes. Some people really enjoyed EA but even they can recognize that many don't.

2. Image issues: vulnerability and humility - people are willing to stick with someone they feel has some degree of humility. Cher, Tina, Dolly all have a loyal fan following partially because of their personality. they've certainly had their share of public struggles and so fans respond positively to this and root them on. Diana most certainly has had struggles too. Ablack woman in the 60s can't became one of the biggest pop without facing insurmountable pushback, racism and headwinds. But Diana has a very structured facade and doesn't really allow vulnerability to show through.

3. Image issues: being a bitch - again, i don't really believe this but her "Wicked Witch" public persona has probably come back to haunt her. she's demanding. she can be tough with employees and staff. she started that whole "Confidentiality Agreement" concept. etc. And then she's on the stage compelling people to hold hands, sway back and forth, spreading love. Some people can take that as insincerity or fake. Frankly i'm sure if you went into Tina's or Cher's organization, there's high pressure and stress too. It's just that people have made it into a major issue with Diana, for instance Mary's book DreamGirl.

4. all pop music in the US has a lifespan - as i mentioned above, the US is very, very fickle with it's pop entertainment. Older stars rarely get the same treatment they did when younger, especially women. yes it's unfair. yes it's ageist. yes it's sexist. But yes it's the reality.

5. AIDS - i've always wondered about this element. Diana always had a huge gay following. A year or so ago i saw a heart wrenching picture of the San Francisco Gay Men's Chorus. The choir was all dressed in black except 2 or so guys. the guys not in black represented the few that are still alive. chilling. And friends in the music industry mention how whole swaths of the creative world were simply decimated. The choreography and dance industries. A huge amount of the men that studied and played organ. it's just appalling. So given her popularity with the gay audience and especially with african american gay men [[which as a population faced higher rates of death from AIDS), i wonder how that impacted things. sure Cher, Tina, Barbra had huge gay followings too. Cher has mentioned how the gay population was critical to her long-term success. how even in her "dark years" the gays were still there buying her records and attending her shows. With a generation severely reduced by a pandemic, did that impact her following?

[Circa 1824]

i think it was a combination of things that impacted her sales 1984 and on

1. poor quality of music - let's face it. the SA album is only so-so and after that, she released 3 that are questionable. yes, yes. Some people really enjoyed EA but even they can recognize that many don't.

2. Image issues: vulnerability and humility - people are willing to stick with someone they feel has some degree of humility. Cher, Tina, Dolly all have a loyal fan following partially because of their personality. they've certainly had their share of public struggles and so fans respond positively to this and root them on. Diana most certainly has had struggles too. Ablack woman in the 60s can't became one of the biggest pop without facing insurmountable pushback, racism and headwinds. But Diana has a very structured facade and doesn't really allow vulnerability to show through.

3. Image issues: being a bitch - again, i don't really believe this but her "Wicked Witch" public persona has probably come back to haunt her. she's demanding. she can be tough with employees and staff. she started that whole "Confidentiality Agreement" concept. etc. And then she's on the stage compelling people to hold hands, sway back and forth, spreading love. Some people can take that as insincerity or fake. Frankly i'm sure if you went into Tina's or Cher's organization, there's high pressure and stress too. It's just that people have made it into a major issue with Diana, for instance Mary's book DreamGirl.

4. all pop music in the US has a lifespan - as i mentioned above, the US is very, very fickle with it's pop entertainment. Older stars rarely get the same treatment they did when younger, especially women. yes it's unfair. yes it's ageist. yes it's sexist. But yes it's the reality.

5. AIDS - i've always wondered about this element. Diana always had a huge gay following. A year or so ago i saw a heart wrenching picture of the San Francisco Gay Men's Chorus. The choir was all dressed in black except 2 or so guys. the guys not in black represented the few that are still alive. chilling. And friends in the music industry mention how whole swaths of the creative world were simply decimated. The choreography and dance industries. A huge amount of the men that studied and played organ. it's just appalling. So given her popularity with the gay audience and especially with african american gay men [[which as a population faced higher rates of death from AIDS), i wonder how that impacted things. sure Cher, Tina, Barbra had huge gay followings too. Cher has mentioned how the gay population was critical to her long-term success. how even in her "dark years" the gays were still there buying her records and attending her shows. With a generation severely reduced by a pandemic, did that impact her following?

of course AIDS hurt all of the entertainment industry and killed many great artists. I lived through that era, and was so disappointed Ross stayed silent for years on an illness that directly impacted a core segment of her loyal fan base. The older Ross likes and appreciates her fans, but I never got the impression the younger Ross did.

[Ollie9]

Yeah, it's called "Her music stinks, she's been around for 20 years, and there are younger, more relevant women taking up the slack Diana's suck years have left us with.".

Remember, until 1964, Diana [[and the Supremes) were irrelevant to the world of music, and then BOOM! 1964 comes and they tiptoe into relevancy with "Lovelight" and then explode with "Where". From 1964-1970, there was never a year when Diana's voice wasn't on a number one record. Motown basically bungled the singles for 1971, but the following year she had a hit movie and a hit soundtrack to go along with it. 1973 brought her success with the Marvin duets and TMITM, including another #1. She managed another hit with "Last Time" later that year, but the album wasn't well received. 1975 brings another hit movie and a #1 hit to go along with it. The following year brings "Love Hangover" and then the launching of a major stage show that eventually makes it way to television and Broadway. While Baby It's Me ended up a critical success but was devoid of hit records, and Ross 78 was almost unnecessary, The Boss took off. And then of course, the year after that, 1980, saw diana80 and it's huge success, in addition to the success of "It's My Turn". In 1981 Diana left Motown with one of the biggest selling songs of the year in "Endless Love". At RCA, Diana largely allowed her talents to be misused on songs that did not fit her [[my opinion, but I stand by it), yet she still managed to have hit records in 1981, 1982, 1984 and 1985, with two or three major selling albums. Most women in the industry would have killed for this kind of resume. But then EA happens, and she follows that up with RHRAB, whose album contents didn't exactly live up to the title of the album. She takes the largest break of her career and then reappears with WO. Meanwhile, during that break, Whitney and Janet and Jody and Madonna and a slew of other younger, trendsetting ladies were ruling the charts. Diana's goose was cooked.

So was it "40" pushing her out? I think it's a combo of that. Had she been ten years younger, I think the industry and the public may have forgiven her duds and absence and accepted her if she was making music that the public found generally good. But she wasn't 30, she was over 40, and the music wasn't largely well thought of. EA could have been forgiven had she rebounded with a much more relevant type album than RHRAB, working with current hitmaking producers, and then from there it would've been interesting to see how long Diana could prolong her relevancy. But she was way past the point where she could be forgiven 2 dud albums, horrible singles, a long break, and then rebound with another dud album and questionable singles. While Sup is exactly right, the US has a weird thing about shelf life for most artists, Diana's shelf life was shortened by her own horrible career decisions.

I still maintain Mary Wilson's book had nothing to do with it.

Interesting posts from everyone. From 81/83 and as a veteran artist, the public did forgive her quite a few stinkers. Those first two RCA albums were salvaged only by a couple of decent songs.
I still don’t understand why “Chain Reaction” was ignored. It was her most ultra commercial sounding song in quite some time. The video is questionably her most exciting ever and it was a major hit all around the globe. The fact that the silly EA single proceeded it seemed to matter little elsewhere. The USA had suddenly fallen out of love with her with an axe to grind. I don’t see age as being to much of an issue as Swept Away and it’s subsequent singles did rather well. All at the grand old age of 40.
I cant quire remember if the book was released prior to the Eaten Alive album.

[Rafalle]

RCA had fallen out of love with her. When MTV were unenthusiastic about adding « Eaten Alive » to their playlists RCA could have called in a few favours. They didn’t. After all the arguments they had had with Diana about SE, R, SA and now EA, they decided to call it quits. She could see out her contract and go. There was no point in throwing good money after bad. « Eaten Alive » was the first lead single by Diana that was not serviced to pop radio. From then on, the American public didn’t, generally, know when she had a new record out. They were no longer played. And she was almost never on TV. RCA got her back for messing with them.

[midnightman]

Yes, she was 40 in 84, a veteran artist but still racking up hit singles. That was my point. “Chain Reaction’ was a smash hit all over the world. Even as the second single after the fluff of EA it still managed to reach the top position in the UK. It was simply that good. After SA, the American record buying public turned their collective backs on her and never stopped to look back. For a music icon it was a drastic turnaround. I have never really thought it was just an age thing.

It wasn't age that got Diana. It was probably the fact that she managed herself after leaving Motown. When you're as ambitious running your own company, it could either be great or tragic.

[RanRan79]

Interesting posts from everyone. From 81/83 and as a veteran artist, the public did forgive her quite a few stinkers. Those first two RCA albums were salvaged only by a couple of decent songs.
I still don’t understand why “Chain Reaction” was ignored. It was her most ultra commercial sounding song in quite some time. The video is questionably her most exciting ever and it was a major hit all around the globe. The fact that the silly EA single proceeded it seemed to matter little elsewhere. The USA had suddenly fallen out of love with her with an axe to grind. I don’t see age as being to much of an issue as Swept Away and it’s subsequent singles did rather well. All at the grand old age of 40.
I cant quire remember if the book was released prior to the Eaten Alive album.

Age wasn't an issue at the time of Swept Away because Diana had maintained relevancy every year since 1964. I don't think anyone is suggesting that the industry, or more importantly the US public, woke up on the day Diana turned 40something and said "Well that's that. She's 40+ now. Time to move on." The fear for a lot of artists is that if they're out of the public's mind for too long, it becomes "out of sight, out of mind", and it's more of a bet that if an artist reaches "out of sight, out of mind" status, it is hella difficult to come back from that, at least here in the states. One false move for most artist will relegate them to "has been" status. Usually the biggest stars are given grace, and for a long time that's what Diana was given whenever she released something like "Pieces Of Ice". But grace doesn't last forever.

After Swept Away lp, and the two big hits she had from that project, she released two albums that added nothing positive to her legacy. While "Eaten Alive" was a big hit on the R&B charts [[probably because of the combo of Ross and MJ more than anything), the EA project as a whole sunk quickly. RHRAB didn't do much either. Then there was the break. Now no one can criticize her for taking time off here. The lady had two children in a ten month period for goodness sakes. But when she came back it was with WO. The title track was big with R&B audiences, but she couldn't duplicate that success with any other track on the album. And pop audiences ignored the song, the album, the whole comeback.

Diana's return to Motown was not treated with the fanfare it deserved. She should have been hellbent on returning to the public, back at home, with an album that would blow people's minds. She didn't do that and the public rolled their eyes and turned their attention to other ladies in the game who were serving up what the public wanted. Again, if Diana was even ten years younger, she may have been allowed to rebound from this. But at 40something? No way. She would've needed a miracle, and honestly I think she was in position to get herself one but she didn't go after it. Personally I feel that had she eventually done an album with Babyface, Narada, Jam and Lewis, definitely recorded more Masser, people who could craft the kinds of cuts that scream Diana but to a new generation, she may have been able to get over the hump. And then there's my theory that had she gone the route that Natalie Cole did in the 90s, she would've definitely continued to score.

I don't know why "Chain Reaction" died not one death, but two in the US. The only thing I can come up with is what some others suggests, which is that it's too much Gibb. However, to my ears the song is so solidly commercial that even too much of that whine shouldn't have been enough to kill it. Perhaps the biggest mystery of Ross' solo career.

[midnightman]

And they all did so by keeping themselves relevant and staying true to themselves at the same time. At RCA Diana floated between her normal lane and trying to compete with the new kids. One can forgive her trying to compete- it's a business after all- but where Patti found producers who could give her relevant music and still keep her Patti, Diana didn't do that. Sometimes she was almost unrecognizable. I don't know if the four women you mention were managing themselves, but Diana was making all of her creative decisions. Contrast that to the period of her career when she wasn't totally in charge of decisions and you get an idea of what really went wrong. Some people have no business managing themselves.

Tina had Roger Davies. Patti had her husband Armstead, who without her, her career wouldn't have really took off after she left Labelle. I don't know who was managing Barbra or Cher.

[midnightman]

RCA had fallen out of love with her. When MTV were unenthusiastic about adding « Eaten Alive » to their playlists RCA could have called in a few favours. They didn’t. After all the arguments they had had with Diana about SE, R, SA and now EA, they decided to call it quits. She could see out her contract and go. There was no point in throwing good money after bad. « Eaten Alive » was the first lead single by Diana that was not serviced to pop radio. From then on, the American public didn’t, generally, know when she had a new record out. They were no longer played. And she was almost never on TV. RCA got her back for messing with them.

I did recall Diana and RCA bumping heads. As Rick Bueche said, when Diana was at Motown, she got the preferential treatment and was the preferred artist. At RCA, she was just another recording artist. Diana and Motown would bump heads but they would always come through with her. Even as Motown was "falling", they were able to give her the best producers. At RCA, Diana wanted who she wanted and wouldn't settle for less, even going so far to produce herself on some songs [[first two RCA albums).

Also I agree that as albums, Eaten Alive and Red Hot Rhythm & Blues didn't tickle anyone's fancy. Diana's career dropped like an anvil with those songs, surprisingly after the success of "Swept Away". I didn't get why "Chain Reaction" DIDN'T become a hit in the U.S. though. But maybe RCA wanted that song to be the leading single and Diana wanted "Eaten Alive" to be one. Usually, if you're arguing over the leading single, that's a sign your album's not gonna go well.

[SatansBlues]

What happened to Diana is the same thing that happens to EVERY artist after a certain age, plain in simple, male and female.

[sup_fan]

if the music Diana had been releasing at RCA had been truly magical AND had it been megahuge hit-wise, PERHAPS things would have played out differently in the mid 80s for her

SA did pretty good. better than Ross but i wouldn't exactly label it a MEGA HIT. it charted in the US at #26 which is ok but not a smash. it was released in Sept 84 just before Madonna released the Virgin album. that was such a hot new artist and sound and that album was MASSIVE.

during 84 you also had Prince breaking into big time, Cyndi Lauper, Van Halen, Culture Club. Duran Duran. so many new, interesting artists.

The in Feb 85 you have Whitney's debut album

so here's DR doing a decent album with SA and then two mediocre albums with EA and RHRAB. and there's any wonder or question about why the US public drifted away from her?

the only way DR could have stood her ground against this onslaught of extremely popular and influential music is if she was releasing true masterpieces.

[midnightman]

For those who think it was just her age, which songs from 1985-95 would've hit for y'all in the United States?

[SatansBlues]

For those who think it was just her age, which songs from 1985-95 would've hit for y'all in the United States?

You could ask the same question to Tina Turner, Aretha Franklin, Gladys Knight, Patti Labelle, Paul McCartney, Bruce Springfield, Stevie Wonder, Smokey Robinson, Barbara Streisand....

[RanRan79]

the only way DR could have stood her ground against this onslaught of extremely popular and influential music is if she was releasing true masterpieces.

Exactly. Why she didn't understand this is anyone's guess. For someone so competitive, she was beating herself instead of looking to beat the competition. I don't get it.

[RanRan79]

For those who think it was just her age, which songs from 1985-95 would've hit for y'all in the United States?

I'm not the target of your question, but I'm gonna answer anyway: Almost None. As I said before, I'm a bit surprised that "Chain Reaction" in the US didn't mirror the success of the song from around the world. And I also think that had "Take Me Higher" been recorded and released in the 1991-93 period, it may have done very well. But by 1995 those kinds of songs were not in favor with the general public. "If We Hold On Together" was apparently some kind of special release, but had it been pushed as a real single, I think it could have become a pop hit, especially tying it to The Land Before Time which was a box office hit. But were any of these "sure things"? Nah. Diana needed a certain kind of attention from producers who knew their shit. She didn't connect.

[RanRan79]

You could ask the same question to Tina Turner, Aretha Franklin, Gladys Knight, Patti Labelle, Paul McCartney, Bruce Springfield, Stevie Wonder, Smokey Robinson, Barbara Streisand....

Tina and Patti reinvented themselves and had uber successful careers post 40. Tina released an album in 1999 that went gold...and she was 60 freakin years old. Patti was gold through the 90s. Aretha had this unique ability to flop several times before bouncing back. Stevie's last album in 2005 went gold and top 5. Smokey Robinson was 47 or 48 when he had his last two big hits. Bruce Springsteen had a platinum album as late as 2009. All of these folks were her musical contemporaries, and most of them were around her age, yet they were able to extend their success, in most cases, further than Diana did. Now of course when I say further, I'm talking about at the point that Diana stopped. Obviously from start to finish Diana Ross is one of the all time most successful recording artist.

[SatansBlues]

Tina and Patti reinvented themselves and had uber successful careers post 40. Tina released an album in 1999 that went gold...and she was 60 freakin years old. Patti was gold through the 90s. Aretha had this unique ability to flop several times before bouncing back. Stevie's last album in 2005 went gold and top 5. Smokey Robinson was 47 or 48 when he had his last two big hits. Bruce Springsteen had a platinum album as late as 2009. All of these folks were her musical contemporaries, and most of them were around her age, yet they were able to extend their success, in most cases, further than Diana did. Now of course when I say further, I'm talking about at the point that Diana stopped. Obviously from start to finish Diana Ross is one of the all time most successful recording artist.
I'm not sure why people hold Diana Ross's career to a different standard when it comes to her career- singles, albums. No artist stays in the top 10 forever, popular/current music is never static, new music and artists enter the scene everyday, people love the latest and the greatest. Most artists today can only dream of the success and longevity of Diana Ross's musical career. But you cannot deny the fact that the Top 100 charts and Album charts is and has been for the longest of time, been dominated by the newer artists and songs that appeal to a younger record buying/downloading/streaming artists. Look at what just happened to Celine Dion last album, it debuted at #1 on the chart it's first week, and by the second week it had dropped out of the TOP 200!!!

[sup_fan]

i would have ditched EA except Chained Reaction could have been saved for RHRAB

the vast majority of the EA set was garbage IMO. the songs have promise but the production and execution were dreadful. So taek Chained and toss the rest

in 86 and 87, there was a resurgence in 50s/60s pop with Stand By Me, Dirty Dancing and other movies. Ferris Bueller danced to Twist and Shout. etc.

I realize that Diana's biggest nightmare was to be considered an "oldies" but fact remains she was in her early to mid 40s at this time. so if the general public was reflecting on the past, she should have used this as an opportunity to reach back and also look forward. had the RHRAB set really been about the history of influential black artists, she could have maybe played that up. do a few of her fav tunes [[like There Goes My Baby), some classics [[like Tell Mama) and then some appropriate modern songs. Dirty Looks is not one of those lol. Shockwaves and Chain Reaction are though. So you have her doing a bit of a retrospective [[which was timely), reinterpreting some wonderful songs from the past and then releasing CR as a modern take on classic R&B

not sure that would have been a mega hit here in the states but MAYBE it would have worked.

[sup_fan]

then in the early 90s, i think she needed to ditch the sentimental/inspirational garbage. I already listed some of the songs i'd skip - Force, One Shining Moment, Best Years of my Life, etc.

I call these the Oprah singalong songs. DR was on that damn show all the time to debut another one of this drek and there you have Oprah lifting her arms in the air, swaying along

looking over the #1 hits of 1991, i think it would be VERY challenging for Diana to break through. You had tons of HUGE Mariah songs at the time, Madonna's Justify My Love, some Whitney, Janet Jackson was will getting hits from Rhythrn Nation. None of those songs would have really fit DR. The one female #1 that i think could have worked was Rush Rush by Paula Abdul. Paula is mediocre vocalist but her songs were pretty good. Rush is quite lovely and if a real singer, like DR, did it, wow. I could also hear DR doing Straight Up. these are modern songs but not so far removed from DR's sound or approach

[SatansBlues]

then in the early 90s, i think she needed to ditch the sentimental/inspirational garbage. I already listed some of the songs i'd skip - Force, One Shining Moment, Best Years of my Life, etc.

I call these the Oprah singalong songs. DR was on that damn show all the time to debut another one of this drek and there you have Oprah lifting her arms in the air, swaying along

looking over the #1 hits of 1991, i think it would be VERY challenging for Diana to break through. You had tons of HUGE Mariah songs at the time, Madonna's Justify My Love, some Whitney, Janet Jackson was will getting hits from Rhythrn Nation. None of those songs would have really fit DR. The one female #1 that i think could have worked was Rush Rush by Paula Abdul. Paula is mediocre vocalist but her songs were pretty good. Rush is quite lovely and if a real singer, like DR, did it, wow. I could also hear DR doing Straight Up. these are modern songs but not so far removed from DR's sound or approach
It's hard to believe, but 1991 was 29 years ago! And of those artists that you mentioned - Madonna, Janet, Whitney, Mariah, Paula Abdul, NONE of them, except Mariah with a 20 year old Christmas song, has had a top 10 single in like 10-15 years!!! Like I said in an earlier post, chasing hits is a younger artists game.

[sup_fan]

Actually Madonna has held up but has become a bit more erratic. She was still super hot through Music in 2000. then had a dud with American Life. but Confessions on a Dance floor [[2005) gave us the huge hit Hung UP. Then Hard Candy [[2008) gave us the hit of 4 Minutes. MDNA [[2012) had a top 10 with Give Me All Your Luvin'.

but you're right that others have struggled. Whitney's final album was a travesty. Paula and Mariah are no longer pumping out hits. Janet got totally shafted by the industry due to that nipple-gate incident

[SatansBlues]

Actually Madonna has held up but has become a bit more erratic. She was still super hot through Music in 2000. then had a dud with American Life. but Confessions on a Dance floor [[2005) gave us the huge hit Hung UP. Then Hard Candy [[2008) gave us the hit of 4 Minutes. MDNA [[2012) had a top 10 with Give Me All Your Luvin'.

but you're right that others have struggled. Whitney's final album was a travesty. Paula and Mariah are no longer pumping out hits. Janet got totally shafted by the industry due to that nipple-gate incident

Interesting to look at Madonna album sales recently,

Hard Candy 2008 750K
MDNA 2012 539K
Rebel Heart 2015 238 K
Madame X 169 K

I wonder how much of her album sales decline is due to age vs streaming services

[RanRan79]

I'm not sure why people hold Diana Ross's career to a different standard when it comes to her career- singles, albums. No artist stays in the top 10 forever, popular/current music is never static, new music and artists enter the scene everyday, people love the latest and the greatest. Most artists today can only dream of the success and longevity of Diana Ross's musical career. But you cannot deny the fact that the Top 100 charts and Album charts is and has been for the longest of time, been dominated by the newer artists and songs that appeal to a younger record buying/downloading/streaming artists. Look at what just happened to Celine Dion last album, it debuted at #1 on the chart it's first week, and by the second week it had dropped out of the TOP 200!!!

A legend of Diana's caliber could never be held to the same standards as most of the rest. After what she did from 1964 [[along with Flo, Mary, and later Cindy) thru about 1984/85, she cannot be considered run of the mill. I think that has to be established before I address anything else.

I think most of us agree that age was an issue, and in the US age is a typical culprit when an established artist fails to find continued success. If you notice, Ollie opined that age wasn't the issue and backed his assertion up with points about Diana having success at 40/41 and then falling off a cliff, sort of. As I said before, no one woke up one morning and decided Diana Ross was too old to be a relevant artist. That lack of success was achieved by Diana Ross releasing music that no one cared about, for the most part. I contend that, while age factored, ultimately Diana recording and releasing dud albums and singles kicked her out of the relevant group. Had she released an incredible album with radio friendly singles in 1986, 1989, 1991, she may have prolonged her success. But this idea that all of a sudden everybody in the United States held a meeting and decided Diana Ross was too old for anyone to care about artistically, is for the birds.:p

[RanRan79]

i would have ditched EA except Chained Reaction could have been saved for RHRAB

the vast majority of the EA set was garbage IMO. the songs have promise but the production and execution were dreadful. So taek Chained and toss the rest

in 86 and 87, there was a resurgence in 50s/60s pop with Stand By Me, Dirty Dancing and other movies. Ferris Bueller danced to Twist and Shout. etc.

I realize that Diana's biggest nightmare was to be considered an "oldies" but fact remains she was in her early to mid 40s at this time. so if the general public was reflecting on the past, she should have used this as an opportunity to reach back and also look forward. had the RHRAB set really been about the history of influential black artists, she could have maybe played that up. do a few of her fav tunes [[like There Goes My Baby), some classics [[like Tell Mama) and then some appropriate modern songs. Dirty Looks is not one of those lol. Shockwaves and Chain Reaction are though. So you have her doing a bit of a retrospective [[which was timely), reinterpreting some wonderful songs from the past and then releasing CR as a modern take on classic R&B

not sure that would have been a mega hit here in the states but MAYBE it would have worked.

The 80s really saw a plethora of hit songs with a throwback feel. Think Wham's "Wake Me Up", Katrina and the Sunshines "Walking On Sunshine", Phil Collins' "Two Hearts", New Edition's "Mr. Telephone Man", etc. Not that Diana should have been doing songs meant for a teenager or young adult, but it's the sound and style. Diana was one of the voices that made the 60s what it is musically, so pairing her up with something that was fresh yet reminiscent probably would've worked. She could have done this in place of Ross83, EA, or RHRAB, but probably best when she returned to Motown. I have to wonder how much better she would've been received had her arrival back at the label that made her famous had been promoted hugely with an album that was kind of throwback but very "now". Perhaps a television special to go along with it.

After the success of "Missing You", Diana should've been in Lionel's face about producing her next album. Skip the Gibbs, replace with Lionel and I bet the 1985 album would've been a hit. RHRAB could've worked as a throwback album of cover songs, but she would've needed better production. While I enjoy a couple songs on the album, most of them lack superior production skills, IMO. But honestly, I think a Luther produced album at this point might have been a good idea. Or maybe a combo of Luther, Narada, Masser.

[RanRan79]

looking over the #1 hits of 1991, i think it would be VERY challenging for Diana to break through. You had tons of HUGE Mariah songs at the time, Madonna's Justify My Love, some Whitney, Janet Jackson was will getting hits from Rhythrn Nation. None of those songs would have really fit DR. The one female #1 that i think could have worked was Rush Rush by Paula Abdul. Paula is mediocre vocalist but her songs were pretty good. Rush is quite lovely and if a real singer, like DR, did it, wow. I could also hear DR doing Straight Up. these are modern songs but not so far removed from DR's sound or approach

Challenging? Perhaps. Impossible? I don't think so. I looked over the Hot 100 number ones for 1991 and I think if Diana had done something worthy, she could've fit in. There's a nice variety of cuts that hit the top that year, although it is worth pointing out that I don't think anyone was anywhere near Diana's age at the time.

I think you may be right about "Rush". Maybe the song would've worked for Ross. But I don't hear anything else Paula did that would have fit. My money is still on Jody Watley as the young artist that I think Diana would've best fit her material, with a bit of tweaking of course.

[RanRan79]

Like I said in an earlier post, chasing hits is a younger artists game.

On this we can agree. However, there's no excuse for mediocre music. Even those artists I named before, that were extending their "shelf life" when Diana had expired, mostly did so through albums that were well received, and not necessarily through hit singles. The last time Diana Ross released a gold selling non compilation album was in 1984. Nineteen freaking eighty four. When I hear her singing throughout the 90s, to me it's a travesty that the still glorious voice wasn't paired up with a ton of great music, and the few times she was, it was past the point people cared.

Janet's career was derailed by the Superbowl shenanigans, the throwing under the bus by her punk ass accomplice, and the subsequent blackballing. Whitney had a very public substance abuse issue as well as long periods with no musical releases. Paula Abdul was in her early 30s or so when she last had a hit, so really she doesn't belong in this conversation.

Madonna went gold as late as 2012 when she was 54. Her last album hit number one. She was 61.

[midnightman]

You could ask the same question to Tina Turner, Aretha Franklin, Gladys Knight, Patti Labelle, Paul McCartney, Bruce Springfield, Stevie Wonder, Smokey Robinson, Barbara Streisand....

I didn't ask about them though.

I can EASILY tell you why SOME of Aretha's records flopped [[more due to awful music than her age; most of Through the Storm and What You See Is What You Sweat were pretty awful but she rebounded beautifully with A Rose Is Still a Rose). Tina, the same thing [[her last good album was 1996's Wildest Dreams). Gladys always had subpar material as a soloist [[sorry, she just did). Patti LaBelle musically wise was unstoppable until 2000. Stevie's music suffered from commercial subpar quality though still had some good moments [["So What the Fuss" definitely would've been a top 40 hit if there was more promotion). Smokey is in the same category with Gladys. Except for the Quiet Storm album and some highlights [["Cruisin'", "Baby Come Close", "Being With You", etc.), Smokey never really hit me as a solo artist.

But this is about Diana. LOL

[midnightman]

I'm not the target of your question, but I'm gonna answer anyway: Almost None. As I said before, I'm a bit surprised that "Chain Reaction" in the US didn't mirror the success of the song from around the world. And I also think that had "Take Me Higher" been recorded and released in the 1991-93 period, it may have done very well. But by 1995 those kinds of songs were not in favor with the general public. "If We Hold On Together" was apparently some kind of special release, but had it been pushed as a real single, I think it could have become a pop hit, especially tying it to The Land Before Time which was a box office hit. But were any of these "sure things"? Nah. Diana needed a certain kind of attention from producers who knew their shit. She didn't connect.

And to be fair, not too many producers really gel with what she was going for. Only HDH, Ashford & Simpson, Hal Davis, Michael Masser and CHIC knew how to produce her. IMHO. Though I could argue with promotion on the adult R&B market, EDIAND could've had some staying power. I love those Mark Middleton productions. But the promo was hardly there. At all.

[sup_fan]

The 80s really saw a plethora of hit songs with a throwback feel. Think Wham's "Wake Me Up", Katrina and the Sunshines "Walking On Sunshine", Phil Collins' "Two Hearts", New Edition's "Mr. Telephone Man", etc. Not that Diana should have been doing songs meant for a teenager or young adult, but it's the sound and style. Diana was one of the voices that made the 60s what it is musically, so pairing her up with something that was fresh yet reminiscent probably would've worked. She could have done this in place of Ross83, EA, or RHRAB, but probably best when she returned to Motown. I have to wonder how much better she would've been received had her arrival back at the label that made her famous had been promoted hugely with an album that was kind of throwback but very "now". Perhaps a television special to go along with it.

After the success of "Missing You", Diana should've been in Lionel's face about producing her next album. Skip the Gibbs, replace with Lionel and I bet the 1985 album would've been a hit. RHRAB could've worked as a throwback album of cover songs, but she would've needed better production. While I enjoy a couple songs on the album, most of them lack superior production skills, IMO. But honestly, I think a Luther produced album at this point might have been a good idea. Or maybe a combo of Luther, Narada, Masser.

completely agree that Lionel should have done an album with her. EA is really the only RCA album that was handled by 1 producer, thus having a cohesive and singular voice. And while in the 70s there were some of her albums that held together pretty well with multiple producers, it was clear that her strongest work resulted from having a focused approach with 1 production team. amazing that she didn't approach things this way in the 80s.

given that Missing was the biggest hit of the SA set, it does seem most logical to then follow up with a full album by that producer, Lionel. Unless perhaps there was some barrier because he was at Motown. not sure

Also agree that the tracks we did get for Red Hot were not sensational. and some of the better tunes were left off the lp! 99 and a half, tell mama, etc. At this point in her career, i think she needed broader exposure to help keep her name out there. She did the tv special, which appears to have generated decent ratings. if she had timed it to also appear in a big budget and successful movie, then that could have worked.

i realize her ego wouldn't allow her to really be part of a strong ensemble or take second billing. but had she, i think she would have rocked in Witches of Eastwick or Broadcast News.

or given how many other projects she was in, rather than starring and carrying a movie, she could have had sensational "guest appearance" roles that would have been highly memorable. I'm sure they could have found ways to incorporate her into something like Three Men and a Baby, Wallstreet, Baby Boom or other huge hits.

And she could have worked to have her music incorporated into films - Dirty Dancing, Adventures in Babysitting, Good Morning Vietnam, Can't buy me love.

[midnightman]

Actually Madonna has held up but has become a bit more erratic. She was still super hot through Music in 2000. then had a dud with American Life. but Confessions on a Dance floor [[2005) gave us the huge hit Hung UP. Then Hard Candy [[2008) gave us the hit of 4 Minutes. MDNA [[2012) had a top 10 with Give Me All Your Luvin'.

but you're right that others have struggled. Whitney's final album was a travesty. Paula and Mariah are no longer pumping out hits. Janet got totally shafted by the industry due to that nipple-gate incident

It took a while but Madonna, I think, has finally fallen off. She had a steadier run than most. Like how many artists you knew had top tens stretching nearly 30 years [[28 years to be exact)? But I would think it was due to marketing efforts [[GMAYL was released primarily for the Super Bowl and to pull pre-release orders on iTunes and Amazon, 4 Minutes was weeks or months after she got inducted into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame - which is why Justin Timberlake inducted her, I think Madonna's last legitimate top ten that didn't need any push was Hung Up from Confessions because Madonna just knew how to create a good song). Madonna also relied on controversy for sales but the controversy that surrounded MDNA, Rebel Heart and Madame X caused her sales to drop. Plus, her streaming units are HORRIBLE compared to Whitney and MJ. They're not as bad as Janet's but they're not exactly healthy.

[Ollie9]

A legend of Diana's caliber could never be held to the same standards as most of the rest. After what she did from 1964 [[along with Flo, Mary, and later Cindy) thru about 1984/85, she cannot be considered run of the mill. I think that has to be established before I address anything else.

I think most of us agree that age was an issue, and in the US age is a typical culprit when an established artist fails to find continued success. If you notice, Ollie opined that age wasn't the issue and backed his assertion up with points about Diana having success at 40/41 and then falling off a cliff, sort of. As I said before, no one woke up one morning and decided Diana Ross was too old to be a relevant artist. That lack of success was achieved by Diana Ross releasing music that no one cared about, for the most part. I contend that, while age factored, ultimately Diana recording and releasing dud albums and singles kicked her out of the relevant group. Had she released an incredible album with radio friendly singles in 1986, 1989, 1991, she may have prolonged her success. But this idea that all of a sudden everybody in the United States held a meeting and decided Diana Ross was too old for anyone to care about artistically, is for the birds.:p

I think it relevant to mention that as Diana continued to reap further success in Europe, she must have doing something right.
EA reached UK 11 with a number 1 hit single. WO 23, FBTP 11 with hit singles a plenty. TMH UK 10 with hit single. To add to this, her “One Woman”commemorative collection went multi platinum with another sprinkling of hit singles. Two Christmas albums also sold very well.
Admittedly the USA is rather a large market lol, but it wasn’t all gloom and doom me thinks.

[kenneth]

Diana had some strong vocals in the movie especially with home but I always relate to the song " A Brand New Day" from the Wiz. Quincy, Diana, Michael, Ted and Nipsey were at the top of their game on this one.


https://youtu.be/zy8dUJEOqos?t=82

This is an interesting clip, by turns both entertaining and yet still seems poorly conceived.

First, how they managed to make Diane look so plain - not that those costumes didn't help any - is a feat in itself. Yeah, yeah, I know that was supposedly the point, but seriously...?

Second, the number has good staging and choreography and at least seems a bit more "Ozlike" than some of the other numbers that are staged in the subway or other venues. Still, at 1:05, it looks like Ross almost stumbles and falls so you kind of wonder, couldn't they have shot it again? Kind of cheesy, IMHO.

I just don't think the entire project did Ross justice. The casting was just too jarring. Granted, I've only seen it once and I know it has a very strong following now. I'll have to see it again with fresh [[?) eyes [[40 years later?).

[mowsville]

And a sweaty armpit lol

[Circa 1824]

musically I really like the film. Visually, it is one of the worst musicals ever made. Visually, it is dark and ugly.

[Circa 1824]

The above video clip shows how bad the choreography was. At 15 seconds, they are clearly waiting for the music to build so they can start to move. Music should follow the Movement, not the other way around. Also, Diana is NOT dancing. She is just awkwardly moving with arms flying everywhere. At 52 seconds she bumps into another dancer and almost stumbled. Who the hell was the choreographer?

[SatansBlues]

RCA had fallen out of love with her. When MTV were unenthusiastic about adding « Eaten Alive » to their playlists RCA could have called in a few favours. They didn’t. After all the arguments they had had with Diana about SE, R, SA and now EA, they decided to call it quits. She could see out her contract and go. There was no point in throwing good money after bad. « Eaten Alive » was the first lead single by Diana that was not serviced to pop radio. From then on, the American public didn’t, generally, know when she had a new record out. They were no longer played. And she was almost never on TV. RCA got her back for messing with them.
Well MTV was known not to play a lot of videos by black artists. Even Michael Jackson and Prince had difficulties even getting their videos played. There was an interesting discussion about MTV a couple years back where I believe it was Michael Jackson's music label Epic threatened to pull all of their videos from MTV before they agreed to play his videos.

[SatansBlues]

I think it relevant to mention that as Diana continued to reap further success in Europe, she must have doing something right.
EA reached UK 11 with a number 1 hit single. WO 23, FBTP 11 with hit singles a plenty. TMH UK 10 with hit single. To add to this, her “One Woman”commemorative collection went multi platinum with another sprinkling of hit singles. Two Christmas albums also sold very well.
Admittedly the USA is rather a large market lol, but it wasn’t all gloom and doom me thinks.

I agree. None of Diana Ross's musical contemporaries had the pop chart success as DR. Not Aretha, not Dionne, not Gladys, not Tina, not Barbara, not Roberta. Were they all hugely successful? Absolutely. And while they may have all had more chart success than DR after 1985, it wasn't a sustained success, meaning multiple years and multiply hits. Nor would I say that any of those hits were really "career defining" hits [[not to take anything away from their success).

I think folks are being way too critical of DR's music from later in her career. Is it my favorite musical period of hers? No, but I still bought every single one of her albums. Some were more musically successful than others, every album had two or three songs on them that were excellent - except EA. I won't go into EA, I've made my thoughts known about this album more than enough times in other threads. Some folks seem to think that the shelf life of a top pop star is forever, when I think on average it fades fairly quickly. I've heard several artists of this generation say that commercial radio just do not play their new material. Which I think is very true. I just think its hard for most artists out of their twenties to be able to create music that relates to or interests young record buyers who are in their teens to their twenties. As an artists ages, so does their fan base, and I tend to believe that the older most people get the less records that they buy. The older you get the more your income goes to more pressing things like housing, student loans, children, cars...and less on things like what were once singles, albums, cds, concerts, etc, etc..

Another thing that folks overlook is the fact that DR remarried in the mid-80s and had two sons! DR was never going to be on the road and recording and promoting her material like she did when she was a Supreme. For goodness sake she was a mother to FIVE children! It wasn't long after her two songs were born that her older three daughters were leaving for college.

[Circa 1824]

Perhaps that should read as far as the AMERICAN public were concerned Rafalle. Throughout Europe Diana was still clocking up the hits .

I was living in Paris during this period. I never once heard her on the radio. Her music was DOA in France as it was in America. In the UK she had more success.

[Ollie9]

I agree. None of Diana Ross's musical contemporaries had the pop chart success as DR. Not Aretha, not Dionne, not Gladys, not Tina, not Barbara, not Roberta. Were they all hugely successful? Absolutely. And while they may have all had more chart success than DR after 1985, it wasn't a sustained success, meaning multiple years and multiply hits. Nor would I say that any of those hits were really "career defining" hits [[not to take anything away from their success).

I think folks are being way too critical of DR's music from later in her career. Is it my favorite musical period of hers? No, but I still bought every single one of her albums. Some were more musically successful than others, every album had two or three songs on them that were excellent - except EA. I won't go into EA, I've made my thoughts known about this album more than enough times in other threads. Some folks seem to think that the shelf life of a top pop star is forever, when I think on average it fades fairly quickly. I've heard several artists of this generation say that commercial radio just do not play their new material. Which I think is very true. I just think its hard for most artists out of their twenties to be able to create music that relates to or interests young record buyers who are in their teens to their twenties. As an artists ages, so does their fan base, and I tend to believe that the older most people get the less records that they buy. The older you get the more your income goes to more pressing things like housing, student loans, children, cars...and less on things like what were once singles, albums, cds, concerts, etc, etc..

Another thing that folks overlook is the fact that DR remarried in the mid-80s and had two sons! DR was never going to be on the road and recording and promoting her material like she did when she was a Supreme. For goodness sake she was a mother to FIVE children! It wasn't long after her two songs were born that her older three daughters were leaving for college.

Good post with some interesting observations. Children aside, Diana was indeed on the road promoting the hell out of WO, FBTP and TMH. Allowing for the delayed release of “Force”, the American sales of those albums must have been a huge disappointment for her. I’m sure it must have been with some relief that Europe remained so loyal.

[Ollie9]

I was living in Paris during this period. I never once heard her on the radio. Her music was DOA in France as it was in America. In the UK she had more success.

How lovely...Paris remains one of my favourite cities. During which period were you living there Circa?.. To be somewhat sure her music was never being played, you would need to be listening to the radio 24/7. Allowing for bathroom breaks, was this the case?.
The french have always adored Diana.

[reese]

Good post with some interesting observations. Children aside, Diana was indeed on the road promoting the hell out of WO, FBTP and TMH. Allowing for the delayed release of “Force”, the American sales of those albums must have been a huge disappointment for her. I’m sure it must have been with some relief that Europe remained so loyal.

The release of TAKE ME HIGHER in the US also didn't align with Diana's tour schedule. I saw her twice that August and the show was full of new material from TMH. I even remember talking with a stranger after one show about how good it all sounded. But the album wasn't out yet, which probably cancelled out casual buyers who might have gone looking for it after the concert. I was surprised one day to hit my local Tower and finding the import version. Of course, I snatched it up right away since the US version wasn't out yet.

[Ollie9]

The release of TAKE ME HIGHER in the US also didn't align with Diana's tour schedule. I saw her twice that August and the show was full of new material from TMH. I even remember talking with a stranger after one show about how good it all sounded. But the album wasn't out yet, which probably cancelled out casual buyers who might have gone looking for it after the concert. I was surprised one day to hit my local Tower and finding the import version. Of course, I snatched it up right away since the US version wasn't out yet.

I didn't realise it was the same with TMH as it had been with FBTP. As you say, she would have lost have lost out on the casual buyers market. Just appalling scheduling.
She did work hard promoting it on American tv to little avail, so perhaps it might not have made that much of a difference. Not good all the same.

[RanRan79]

The "shelf life" of a huge star is often predicated on a number of things. The suggestion that age is the only factor is, IMO, inaccurate. Sometimes artists release great music and the public passes them by. This is usually an indication that the "shelf life" has expired, that said artist is a victim of a fickle industry. That's not what happened to Diana Ross. She did not release great music. She didn't do anything that even the critics really liked until TMH, at which point she was already in the garbage bin with the general public, and on top of that, she was even older than she was in the late 80s, early 90s. There are some legends whose lack of success leaves us scratching our heads and wondering why nobody bought X album, and then from there we conclude that people are stupid and willing to pass over good music simply because the artist is over a certain age.

Diana Ross is not that legend. Working Overtime and Force Behind the Power, are not those albums.

[Ollie9]

The "shelf life" of a huge star is often predicated on a number of things. The suggestion that age is the only factor is, IMO, inaccurate. Sometimes artists release great music and the public passes them by. This is usually an indication that the "shelf life" has expired, that said artist is a victim of a fickle industry. That's not what happened to Diana Ross. She did not release great music. She didn't do anything that even the critics really liked until TMH, at which point she was already in the garbage bin with the general public, and on top of that, she was even older than she was in the late 80s, early 90s. There are some legends whose lack of success leaves us scratching our heads and wondering why nobody bought X album, and then from there we conclude that people are stupid and willing to pass over good music simply because the artist is over a certain age.

Diana Ross is not that legend. Working Overtime and Force Behind the Power, are not those albums.

FBTP did incredibly well here in England’s green and pleasant land. We tend to have always liked old people. :D

[midnightman]

I prefer TMH over WO and FBTP any day lol

[Ollie9]

I prefer TMH over WO and FBTP any day lol

I much prefer TMH and...”shock horror” WO over FBTP. During the 90’s and in Europe at least, Diana appears to have had a lot more success with pop orientated material then with r & b.

[sup_fan]

i'd rank Diana's Motown 2 albums as such, from best to worst:

Everyday
Stolen moments
Christmas in Vienna
Take me higher
Force behind the power
Making spirits bright
voice of love
WO
Extended
Forever
Greatest hits live

[Ollie9]

I agree in that “Greatest Hits Live” would most definitely find its way bottom of the pile on my own personal list of RTM albums. Why Oh Why?.
Looking for positives, it did provide Diana impersonators the world over the opportunity to refresh their acts with more recent songs...... :)

[Rafalle]

I remember reading a review at the time of release of « Greatest Hits Live » in 1989, and the reviewer asked, « Why is she singing like this? ». I wondered too. Now, of course, I know, she was in a hurry! She was rushing thru her set so she could finish, get out, get on a private jet, and get home. All that mattered was getting home to her kids, at that time her boys were both toddlers. She put motherhood first. And thirty years later, watching Tracey at the Democratic Convention, we can all see what a great job she made of it. As I said before, I just wish she had told me at the time, so I would have known what she was up to! She made the right choice.

[sup_fan]

it's not just a rush job that's a problem. she just doesn't sound good. her voice is really weak here on many of the tracks.

oh plus is that we do at least get live versions of some of her WO songs. while not my fav album of hers by any stretch of the imagination, i do enjoy having lots of live versions of her songs. many times, and this is one, the live versions can improve on the original.

[Ollie9]

I remember reading a review at the time of release of « Greatest Hits Live » in 1989, and the reviewer asked, « Why is she singing like this? ». I wondered too. Now, of course, I know, she was in a hurry! She was rushing thru her set so she could finish, get out, get on a private jet, and get home. All that mattered was getting home to her kids, at that time her boys were both toddlers. She put motherhood first. And thirty years later, watching Tracey at the Democratic Convention, we can all see what a great job she made of it. As I said before, I just wish she had told me at the time, so I would have known what she was up to! She made the right choice.

With all due respect, how on earth would you know that??. For the two nights i was in the audience at the Wembley Arena, Diana appeared to be having a great time and most certainly not in a rush to get off stage. On the contrary, they were rather long shows
and rank amongst her best.
I agree with Sup in that her voice sounds rather weak and tired on the album. It should never have been released.

[reese]

it's not just a rush job that's a problem. she just doesn't sound good. her voice is really weak here on many of the tracks.

oh plus is that we do at least get live versions of some of her WO songs. while not my fav album of hers by any stretch of the imagination, i do enjoy having lots of live versions of her songs. many times, and this is one, the live versions can improve on the original.

Aside from Diana not being in great voice on the album, it also suffered from weird editing. Why shorten MIRROR, MIRROR but include the instrumental break afterwards when she is changing her clothes? Or including her dropping the mike right before ENDLESS LOVE? It was cute to see that moment on the HBO special but it made no sense on the album.

[Ollie9]

The one thing I do love about the Greatest Hits Live album is the cover artwork. With that huge, billowing red dress, it would have made a terrific cover for her “A Very Special Season” album.
I remember being surprised at just how cheap and dull looking the design of that seasonal album really was. Most unusual for Diana at that point in time.

[Rafalle]

I saw her in March 89 in Glasgow. I’m guessing that after the show she would have gone straight to the airport [[ 15 minutes by car) and flown back to London where Arne and the boys were.

[Ollie9]

I saw her in March 89 in Glasgow. I’m guessing that after the show she would have gone straight to the airport [[ 15 minutes by car) and flown back to London where Arne and the boys were.

Are you saying it was a review of the concert as opposed to the album??. Your post indicates it was an album review as you mention it was around the time of its release.
The Greatest Hits Live album was recorded at Wembley Arena, not Glasgow. There really is no indication at all that Diana was racing through to get home ASAP. As the concert was being recorded for possible release it would have been an extremely odd thing for her to do.

[Boogiedown]

This must be what you're discussing :


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=geDL4WZCuFs

I'm not aware of this recording and I don't recall reading of it being discussed here at SD ....I must have missed it !

What jumps out right away is that her voice cracks upon first speaking the first lines of the night : "thank you ! thank you very much!"

The source for the video at youtube says it is from three nights of singing at Wembley, so from that I would conclude that they extracted the best versions from each night ? [[?) Either that or they picked the worst night for her voice to record ...perhaps the last night , thinking she'd be well rehearsed and the most comfortable at that point , not factoring in the notion that by then her voice could be stretched to its limit.
That strikes me as likely plausible , as its a loud , long, strenuous show to do three nights in a row. Pitchers in baseball don't do that !!

And performing in an arena is a whole different ballgame than smaller more intimate ones. You have to keep a lot of people, most sitting far away, engaged , which means amping it up [[louder faster) to suit the size of the crowd.

And to top it off Diana is doing it all alone !! [[Except the non-featured back up singers).
It's kind of a shocking, the nondescript staging. The style of the day is lots of flash, energetic dancers dominating, with lots of orchestrated lighting, and any other array of theatrics stuck in , pyrotechnics, etc.. . No dancers here at all , the lights are but spot lights and generic ambiences of red , blue, .. is there even a large screen ?? Very clever, the two costume changes , perhaps the one thing the most thought was put into.... but even at that , were the first and last looks too similar?? and to continue being picky, she changes out of a slinky tight sequinned Supremes type gown into an exaggerated broad and flowing ball gown .... to then do a Supremes medley!


Very surprising , [[and I'm guessing disappointing to the audience). Diana's performing a rather lengthy intro to LOVEHANGOVER only to truncate it right when it kicks in. [[that would've been a good time to let a dance instrumental take charge for a few minutes while taking a break, beyond the quick costume change).
Also I bet when she started singing the slow and vocally taxing ENDLESS LOVE , she was thinking , "Damn why did I just run around throughout this entire arena like that !" lol!!

Overall , I get the impression she's in over her head. But, she is one tough cookie , out there on her own taking on the crowd like that !:cool:

oh and WONDERFUL WORLD is ......wonderful ....

[Rafalle]

The reviewer was commenting on how rushed and breathless she sounded on tracks like « Upside Down ». Recorded, as you say, at Wembley. And in person, in Glasgow, she sounded even more rushed. She sang for over two hours, with an interval, so there was no need to hurry, but she did. Why, I don’t know. I can only speculate that she wanted to get the job done and get home. Maybe she was bored... it was around the same time she said, on stage, after singing « Baby Love », « I been singing these fucking songs for over 20 years now. ». She didn’t say much in Glasgow, other than to introduce four songs from WO - which wouldn’t be released for two months, a marketing own goal. I do remember she slowed down to do a note perfect rendition of « Missing You ». Maybe she hadn’t tired of it at that point.

[reese]

This must be what you're discussing :


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=geDL4WZCuFs

I'm not aware of this recording and I don't recall reading of it being discussed here at SD ....I must have missed it !

What jumps out right away is that her voice cracks upon first speaking the first lines of the night : "thank you ! thank you very much!"

The source for the video at youtube says it is from three nights of singing at Wembley, so from that I would conclude that they extracted the best versions from each night ? [[?) Either that or they picked the worst night for her voice to record ...perhaps the last night , thinking she'd be well rehearsed and the most comfortable at that point , not factoring in the notion that by then her voice could be stretched to its limit.
That strikes me as likely plausible , as its a loud , long, strenuous show to do three nights in a row. Pitchers in baseball don't do that !!

And performing in an arena is a whole different ballgame than smaller more intimate ones. You have to keep a lot of people, most sitting far away, engaged , which means amping it up [[louder faster) to suit the size of the crowd.

And to top it off Diana is doing it all alone !! [[Except the non-featured back up singers).
It's kind of a shocking, the nondescript staging. The style of the day is lots of flash, energetic dancers dominating, with lots of orchestrated lighting, and any other array of theatrics stuck in , pyrotechnics, etc.. . No dancers here at all , the lights are but spot lights and generic ambiences of red , blue, .. is there even a large screen ?? Very clever, the two costume changes , perhaps the one thing the most thought was put into.... but even at that , were the first and last looks too similar?? and to continue being picky, she changes out of a slinky tight sequinned Supremes type gown into an exaggerated broad and flowing ball gown .... to then do a Supremes medley!


Very surprising , [[and I'm guessing disappointing to the audience). Diana's performing a rather lengthy intro to LOVEHANGOVER only to truncate it right when it kicks in. [[that would've been a good time to let a dance instrumental take charge for a few minutes while taking a break, beyond the quick costume change).
Also I bet when she started singing the slow and vocally taxing ENDLESS LOVE , she was thinking , "Damn why did I just run around throughout this entire arena like that !" lol!!

Overall , I get the impression she's in over her head. But, she is one tough cookie , out there on her own taking on the crowd like that !:cool:

oh and WONDERFUL WORLD is ......wonderful ....

This show originally aired on HBO. So one must remember the entire performance was edited down to fit a 60-minute tv timeslot. Many of the songs were edited down [[LOVE HANGOVER was amongst them) or left out of the telecast completely.

I saw the show in person a few weeks before this tv special aired and it was great. It was also done end-stage as opposed to in the round. And most important for me, Diana called me on stage to dance during WORKIN' OVERTIME. ;)

Re the staging, after leaving Motown, Diana left the big-budgeted spectacles behind. For the most part, her shows were in the round. For me, it really showed how great an entertainer she is to just get up alone on a small stage in the center of a sports arena and use only her talent to hold thousands of people enraptured for a couple of hours. She brought back dancers during the TAKE ME HIGHER era and again during RTL, but I honestly don't think they were needed.

[Ollie9]

Re the staging, after leaving Motown, Diana left the big-budgeted spectacles behind. For the most part, her shows were in the round. For me, it really showed how great an entertainer she is to just get up alone on a small stage in the center of a sports arena and use only her talent to hold thousands of people enraptured for a couple of hours. She brought back dancers during the TAKE ME HIGHER era and again during RTL, but I honestly don't think they were needed.

As you point out, this was a no frills presentation that proved Diana really didn’t need all those other distractions to prop up the show. She looked stunning in that short dress and moved like a teenager during the WO segment.
For the two nights I was there the audience fed off her incredible energy level and dazzling charisma. I was not there for the final night at WA so am unable to comment.
Did you dance holding Diana or was it a solo bop?.
.

[reese]

As you point out, this was a no frills presentation that proved Diana really didn’t need all those other distractions to prop up the show. She looked stunning in that short dress and moved like a teenager during the WO segment.
For the two nights I was there the audience fed off her incredible energy level and dazzling charisma. I was not there for the final night at WA so am unable to comment.
Did you dance holding Diana or was it a solo bop?.
.

We danced together but I didn't hold her. She did kiss me when the song was over and her backup singer Bobby Glenn gave me a thumbs-up.

[Ollie9]

We danced together but I didn't hold her. She did kiss me when the song was over and her backup singer Bobby Glenn gave me a thumbs-up.

Just as well it was Diana. To some that would mean practically engaged!!.

[sup_fan]

As you point out, this was a no frills presentation that proved Diana really didn’t need all those other distractions to prop up the show. She looked stunning in that short dress and moved like a teenager during the WO segment.
For the two nights I was there the audience fed off her incredible energy level and dazzling charisma. I was not there for the final night at WA so am unable to comment.
Did you dance holding Diana or was it a solo bop?.
.

actually it was prior to leaving motown that she radically changed her show. The clips from the 1980 tv special at the LA Forum show her in a simple "stage in the round" presentation. no gimmicks, no mimes, no dancers, no laser light shows.

I do have to say that i think it's effective. of course we can speculate how/why the change came about. was she thinking of leaving motown and looking to trim fat? did she have sticker shock from the price tag of The Boss tour? now that she was running her own business [[albeit still within the overall motown corporation) did she discover just how crazy expensive her shows were and cut back?

[Ollie9]

actually it was prior to leaving motown that she radically changed her show. The clips from the 1980 tv special at the LA Forum show her in a simple "stage in the round" presentation. no gimmicks, no mimes, no dancers, no laser light shows.

I do have to say that i think it's effective. of course we can speculate how/why the change came about. was she thinking of leaving motown and looking to trim fat? did she have sticker shock from the price tag of The Boss tour? now that she was running her own business [[albeit still within the overall motown corporation) did she discover just how crazy expensive her shows were and cut back?

76 to 79 were what I think of as the razzmatazz concert years. From 81 of course there appeared the more simplistic in the round presentations. The Boss as we know was a very expensive tour, so i’m sure budget was a huge consideration. Perhaps also she felt the inclusion of dancers, movie screens etc had been done to death and felt a simpler, less constrained staging was the way to go.
It was surprising that the RTL tour was augmented with additional backing singers and dancers when she had already proved they were not really necessary.

[Boogiedown]

This show originally aired on HBO. So one must remember the entire performance was edited down to fit a 60-minute tv timeslot. Many of the songs were edited down [[LOVE HANGOVER was amongst them) or left out of the telecast completely.

I saw the show in person a few weeks before this tv special aired and it was great. It was also done end-stage as opposed to in the round. And most important for me, Diana called me on stage to dance during WORKIN' OVERTIME. ;)

Re the staging, after leaving Motown, Diana left the big-budgeted spectacles behind. For the most part, her shows were in the round. For me, it really showed how great an entertainer she is to just get up alone on a small stage in the center of a sports arena and use only her talent to hold thousands of people enraptured for a couple of hours. She brought back dancers during the TAKE ME HIGHER era and again during RTL, but I honestly don't think they were needed.

Wow reese !! How lucky for you !! [[ I hope ! Are you a good dancer ? lol!) How did that happen? Were you pushing for yourself to get called up? Were you at the stage? Did she point at you in your seat? Do you think you had made some kind of contact with her already? [[ eyes met ?) ?

I will say it would seem awkward to be asked to dance up there to a song yet unknown to you .....??? .....


Very cool though !

[reese]

Wow reese !! How lucky for you !! [[ I hope ! Are you a good dancer ? lol!) How did that happen? Were you pushing for yourself to get called up? Were you at the stage? Did she point at you in your seat? Do you think you had made some kind of contact with her already? [[ eyes met ?) ?

I will say it would seem awkward to be asked to dance up there to a song yet unknown to you .....??? .....


Very cool though !

I was sitting in the front row and having a very good time, mouthing the lyrics to everything, even the flops. When she pointed at me, I was shocked. I'm still surprised that I actually went up there as I'm basically rather shy and dancing in front of 15,000 people isn't my idea of fun. But when Diana calls, you come.

She called me up during WORKIN' OVERTIME which was a #3 hit on the r&b chart that summer so it wasn't unknown.

[Boogiedown]

I was sitting in the front row and having a very good time, mouthing the lyrics to everything, even the flops. When she pointed at me, I was shocked. I'm still surprised that I actually went up there as I'm basically rather shy and dancing in front of 15,000 people isn't my idea of fun. But when Diana calls, you come.

She called me up during WORKIN' OVERTIME which was a #3 hit on the r&b chart that summer so it wasn't unknown.

Ha ! She spotted you! She could tell you'd come through ! She knew you better than you knew yourself!

[Ollie9]

As regards The Wiz, does anyone know for sure if “Home” was ever considered for single release?. If so, was it the soundtrack or studio version?. Ive always thought the studio version should have definitely been included on the “Ross” album. It would surely have proved more successful then “What You Gave Me”, if harder to dance to.
It seems fitting as it’s pretty much regarded as a Diana classic.

[RanRan79]

As regards The Wiz, does anyone know for sure if “Home” was ever considered for single release?. If so, was it the soundtrack or studio version?. Ive always thought the studio version should have definitely been included on the “Ross” album. It would surely have proved more successful then “What You Gave Me”, if harder to dance to.
It seems fitting as it’s pretty much regarded as a Diana classic.

Ross78 and The Wiz soundtrack were released in the same month. The movie was about a month after that. It's my understanding that the studio version of "Home" and the accompanying sessions for Diana Sings Songs From were intended for release after the movie came out and was a success. When that didn't happen, the plans were shelved. So I don't think it was ever up for consideration for Ross78, although with hindsight it would have made a very nice addition.

While I certainly love Diana's version of "Home", I'm not sure I subscribe to the thought that it would've done well as a single. I think it makes a helluva standout performance in the movie, on the soundtrack, and, had the collection been released, on the proposed Diana Sings album it would have been a highlight of the album. But I hear the commercial potential in "What You Gave Me" and feel "Home" lacks that potential. Although for the record, I LOVE Diana's version of "What You Gave Me" [[I also LOVE Marvin and Tammi's too), I think it was a poor choice of single.

As far as "Home" being a Diana classic, she's surely associated with the song, and usually in a positive way. But the song belongs to Stephanie Mills. I remember one time back in the 90s, on Showtime At the Apollo, a young lady walked onto the stage during the amateur night competition and said she was going to sing "Home" by Diana Ross. The audience wasn't having it. The host- I think it was Steve Harvey at the time, but might be mistaken- had to remind the audience that Diana did it too. LOL

[Ollie9]

Ross78 and The Wiz soundtrack were released in the same month. The movie was about a month after that. It's my understanding that the studio version of "Home" and the accompanying sessions for Diana Sings Songs From were intended for release after the movie came out and was a success. When that didn't happen, the plans were shelved. So I don't think it was ever up for consideration for Ross78, although with hindsight it would have made a very nice addition.

While I certainly love Diana's version of "Home", I'm not sure I subscribe to the thought that it would've done well as a single. I think it makes a helluva standout performance in the movie, on the soundtrack, and, had the collection been released, on the proposed Diana Sings album it would have been a highlight of the album. But I hear the commercial potential in "What You Gave Me" and feel "Home" lacks that potential. Although for the record, I LOVE Diana's version of "What You Gave Me" [[I also LOVE Marvin and Tammi's too), I think it was a poor choice of single.

As far as "Home" being a Diana classic, she's surely associated with the song, and usually in a positive way. But the song belongs to Stephanie Mills. I remember one time back in the 90s, on Showtime At the Apollo, a young lady walked onto the stage during the amateur night competition and said she was going to sing "Home" by Diana Ross. The audience wasn't having it. The host- I think it was Steve Harvey at the time, but might be mistaken- had to remind the audience that Diana did it too. LOL

With the resurgence in popularity of the film version of The Wiz, it might possibly be all a younger generation are familiar with. So for them to associate “Home” with Diana seems a natural. As we all know, Mills was the original stage star, but movies are far wider reaching then stage productions. It would be interesting to know if ever a poll was conducted as to who’s name would feature the most.

[midnightman]

For black audiences, "Home" will always be Stephanie Mills' song. For younger people of all races though, it belongs to either Diana or Whitney.

I remember going to kindergarten hearing Stephanie's R&B studio version [[from her 1989 album of the same name) and thought Stephanie was covering Diana lol

I didn't know the real truth until a couple years later!

[RanRan79]

Yeah, nobody I know thinks of Diana when "Home" comes up. And since you opened the door...The young lady on Apollo was white. Clearly a fan of The Wiz but not exposed to Stephanie's number one cover of her own originating song. Lol I remember in 1989/90 you couldn't go down the street without that song either being played on the car radio or blasting out of someone's house. I love Diana's versions, but Stephanie took "Home" in the late 80s, tore it down, and built a mansion in it's place. My mama still bumps it on the regular. [[As do I. I play Stephanie's version 10 times more than Diana's.)

[SatansBlues]

Yeah, nobody I know thinks of Diana when "Home" comes up. And since you opened the door...The young lady on Apollo was white. Clearly a fan of The Wiz but not exposed to Stephanie's number one cover of her own originating song. Lol I remember in 1989/90 you couldn't go down the street without that song either being played on the car radio or blasting out of someone's house. I love Diana's versions, but Stephanie took "Home" in the late 80s, tore it down, and built a mansion in it's place. My mama still bumps it on the regular. [[As do I. I play Stephanie's version 10 times more than Diana's.)

I do! The first time I ever heard anyone sing the song is when Diana Ross performed it on her tv special in 1981. I didn't get to hear Stephanie Mills's version until over 10 years later. As a young kid I was in awe of how long DR held the last note of the song, tilted her head back and it sounds like her mic cuts out for a couple seconds and then tilts her head back and is still holding the note. It was EPIC.

[vgalindo]

I do! The first time I ever heard anyone sing the song is when Diana Ross performed it on her tv special in 1981. I didn't get to hear Stephanie Mills's version until over 10 years later. As a young kid I was in awe of how long DR held the last note of the song, tilted her head back and it sounds like her mic cuts out for a couple seconds and then tilts her head back and is still holding the note. It was EPIC.
Yes. I agree. It was sensational. But the first time I heard “Home” was by Diana Ross on her 1977 “Big Event“ TV special and I loved it. This was before she filmed The Wiz. I recorded the TV special with a portable cassette recorder. I wore that tape out. Lol. I was only 15 years old. Never heard it by Stephanie until years later. It will always be a Diana Ross song to me.

[reese]

I never really thought of HOME as Diana's song even though it was the one I was most familiar it.

In the 70s, I knew that Stephanie was doing it on Broadway and I saw her sing it on a few television shows but it didn't make a big impression on me. By comparison, my aunt bought me THE WIZ soundtrack for Christmas 1978 and I wore that album out, particularly HOME. Subsequent performances of it on her 1981 tv special and various concerts that I attended made the song even more special for me.

But when Stephanie remade the song in 1989, I was shook. That soaring voice backed up by Take 6 just took the song somewhere else. I've seen her sing that version in concert many times and she never fails to hit it out of the ball park. By comparison, in the 90s I finally Stephanie reprise her role of Dorothy in a touring version of "THE WIZ" and the version she sang paled considerably.

[midnightman]

Yeah, nobody I know thinks of Diana when "Home" comes up. And since you opened the door...The young lady on Apollo was white. Clearly a fan of The Wiz but not exposed to Stephanie's number one cover of her own originating song. Lol I remember in 1989/90 you couldn't go down the street without that song either being played on the car radio or blasting out of someone's house. I love Diana's versions, but Stephanie took "Home" in the late 80s, tore it down, and built a mansion in it's place. My mama still bumps it on the regular. [[As do I. I play Stephanie's version 10 times more than Diana's.)

"Home" was a huge R&B hit that year. Went all the way to number one there for, I don't know how many weeks.

I think she gave the greatest vocal performance of any singer at the Apollo when she performed the song live on "Showtime at the Apollo" the week the album came out:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZCCq2MnYxwE

[Ollie9]

I think Stephanie’s version of “Home” worked extremely well in the context of the stage musical. As a one off performance i personally prefer Diana’s version.
SM is an all out, full throttle Patti Labelle type performance. Diana’s a little more wistful/poignant . It’s not necessarily a look what I can do type performance.
Don’t get me wrong, i think Mills does a fantastic job with the song giving it her all. I just think Diana’s interpretation has the edge.
As regards association, it was Mills who first originated the song on stage before a film version was even considered. As such, it seems fitting if it’s her name that were the first to be associated with it.

[lucky2012]

I think Stephanie’s version of “Home” worked extremely well in the context of the stage musical. As a one off performance i personally prefer Diana’s version.
SM is an all out, full throttle Patti Labelle type performance. Diana’s a little more wistful/poignant . It’s not necessarily a look what I can do type performance.
Don’t get me wrong, i think Mills does a fantastic job with the song giving it her all. I just think Diana’s interpretation has the edge.
As regards association, it was Mills who first originated the song on stage before a film version was even considered. As such, it seems fitting if it’s her name that were the first to be associated with it.

Agree with all of this!

[midnightman]

I think Stephanie’s version of “Home” worked extremely well in the context of the stage musical. As a one off performance i personally prefer Diana’s version.
SM is an all out, full throttle Patti Labelle type performance. Diana’s a little more wistful/poignant . It’s not necessarily a look what I can do type performance.
Don’t get me wrong, i think Mills does a fantastic job with the song giving it her all. I just think Diana’s interpretation has the edge.
As regards association, it was Mills who first originated the song on stage before a film version was even considered. As such, it seems fitting if it’s her name that were the first to be associated with it.

I agree. I also see your point about Diana's version. She truly made it her own too. I loved her live version from her 1979 concert at Caesar's Palace. That's probably my favorite version of Diana's.

[RanRan79]

I think she gave the greatest vocal performance of any singer at the Apollo when she performed the song live on "Showtime at the Apollo" the week the album came out:


Oh, she tore it up on the Apollo. Another one of my favorite performances is the one from Sinbad's Summer Jam, I think from the late 90s. Stephanie was hoarse, but she evoked every emotion of that song possible. Sinbad's commentary at the end sums up the way many of us "hear" "Home" by Stephanie Mills. Diana's versions can't compare, for my taste.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gpVB7yqV20o

[RanRan79]

I do! The first time I ever heard anyone sing the song is when Diana Ross performed it on her tv special in 1981. I didn't get to hear Stephanie Mills's version until over 10 years later. As a young kid I was in awe of how long DR held the last note of the song, tilted her head back and it sounds like her mic cuts out for a couple seconds and then tilts her head back and is still holding the note. It was EPIC.

Meh. Lol I can't argue against how great Diana's versions are. But if we're gonna talk notes, that "like HOOOOMMMMEEEE" Stephanie does in her hit version from 89 is so long, I can run to the store, grab a few things, stop to chitchat with someone [[socially distancing, of course), come home and cook the meal, before she's finished.:p

If we're gonna talk Diana and notes held, I love what she does with that last one on "Somewhere" from the Albert Hall performance in 1973. Absolutely fantastic.

[RanRan79]

But when Stephanie remade the song in 1989, I was shook. That soaring voice backed up by Take 6 just took the song somewhere else.

Accurate description for how I feel.

[Boogiedown]

HOME was the song chosen to introduce Whitney Houston to the world :


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yf9P-_zvplo

[midnightman]

Oh, she tore it up on the Apollo. Another one of my favorite performances is the one from Sinbad's Summer Jam, I think from the late 90s. Stephanie was hoarse, but she evoked every emotion of that song possible. Sinbad's commentary at the end sums up the way many of us "hear" "Home" by Stephanie Mills. Diana's versions can't compare, for my taste.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gpVB7yqV20o

I remember watching this with my parents lmao

To say Stephanie stole the show is an understatement. I think Kool and the Gang [[with JT) came after her LOL

Hard to follow that up [[though they did their best, who can beat Celebration? HELLO! Lol)

[midnightman]

HOME was the song chosen to introduce Whitney Houston to the world :


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yf9P-_zvplo

What an introduction to the world. Seeing that performance of her at just 19 years old, you can tell Whitney was destined to be where she eventually got to... singing "Home" like THAT?! I wonder how Stephanie and Diana felt watching that lol

I loved Whitney's 1994 live performance of it in South Africa as well.

[midnightman]

Meh. Lol I can't argue against how great Diana's versions are. But if we're gonna talk notes, that "like HOOOOMMMMEEEE" Stephanie does in her hit version from 89 is so long, I can run to the store, grab a few things, stop to chitchat with someone [[socially distancing, of course), come home and cook the meal, before she's finished.:p

If we're gonna talk Diana and notes held, I love what she does with that last one on "Somewhere" from the Albert Hall performance in 1973. Absolutely fantastic.

Oh man, I know you heard the 1974/75 studio version Stephanie gave of this song. I don't know how long she held the note at the end. Maybe 17 seconds?!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=taNKf24_cZw

As for Diana, yeah, that Somewhere performance from '73 was spell binding. Diana can hold some notes too!

[RanRan79]

I remember watching this with my parents lmao

To say Stephanie stole the show is an understatement. I think Kool and the Gang [[with JT) came after her LOL

Hard to follow that up [[though they did their best, who can beat Celebration? HELLO! Lol)

Oh yeah, there's no following that. You put all your hope into people forgetting about "Home" and just celebrating. Lol

[RanRan79]

What an introduction to the world. Seeing that performance of her at just 19 years old, you can tell Whitney was destined to be where she eventually got to... singing "Home" like THAT?! I wonder how Stephanie and Diana felt watching that lol


I've always loved this performance of "Home". I even ripped the audio years ago. Whitney killed it. Yet, I honestly think it lacks the "soul" of both Diana and Stephanie's versions. I'm not talking "soul" as in "she aint Black enough", but instead that thing that really connects to the song. Whitney comes across technically proficient, but it also comes across like a high school girl performing in the school's talent show. She kills it, elicits a standing ovation, all the kids talk about it the next day, but it was just a performance. To me Diana and Stephanie sing the song like they're living it and thus their versions are preferable for my taste. Just my opinion. But like I said, I was wowed enough by Whitney's version to rip the audio. Definitely a great performance.

[RanRan79]

Oh man, I know you heard the 1974/75 studio version Stephanie gave of this song. I don't know how long she held the note at the end. Maybe 17 seconds?!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=taNKf24_cZw

As for Diana, yeah, that Somewhere performance from '73 was spell binding. Diana can hold some notes too!

Oh of course! I bought the soundtrack back in the 90s. Stephanie was impressive throughout. And on "Be A Lion"...oh man. I wonder if Stephanie ever performed "And I Am Telling You I'm Not Going"? I was initially disappointed in Gladys Knight's version, but it eventually grew on me. I was very disappointed in Whitney's version. I was expecting to lose my breath but came away with a "meh" feeling. I always wanted to hear Aretha cover it. But Stephanie? I have to believe that's a song she could've stretched out on.