Tammi Terrell. Unsung

[luke]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=IKg7yc6H0nE

[daviddesper]

Just saw this and apparently it is being aired for the first time here at 7:00 Eastern time but on what channel? I cannot find it on my cable.

[reese]

Just saw this and apparently it is being aired for the first time here at 7:00 Eastern time but on what channel? I cannot find it on my cable.

UNSUNG airs on the TV-One cable channel but this episode has aired many times before.

[daviddesper]

I have now figured out that this was old news but somewhere earlier tonight I saw a reference to it and it said it was "premiering" in the next 22 minutes. Anyway, once I got my head on straight about that, I watched it and then for good measure watched the ones for Phyllis Hyman and the Marvelettes.

[rovereab]

Sadly a short life but one that is so rich with talent, something that others with a full life are unable to achieve. Magnificent!

[midnightman]

The more I read on her story, the sadder I get but also I admire her free spirited attitude. Imagine if she had lived longer... but I guess you can't tempt fate. :[[

How big you have to be on someone's life that their life starts to fall apart? We'll never know how much Tammi meant to Marvin. They never had a romantic relationship but Marvin, I can tell, really loved Tammi and Tammi loved Marvin.

THAT'S LOVE. RIP Marvin & Tammi.

Also, what a singer... that acapella bit of If This World Were Mine and the way she sang it... oh my God... *heavenly*

[rovereab]

Knowing about Tammi going back into the studio after surgery to record You're All I Need To Get By, together with the ensuing challenges, makes this song even more heartfelt. To think Tammi thought she sounded weak too. For me this is the benchmark duet song for any genre and artists.

[midnightman]

Knowing about Tammi going back into the studio after surgery to record You're All I Need To Get By, together with the ensuing challenges, makes this song even more heartfelt. To think Tammi thought she sounded weak too. For me this is the benchmark duet song for any genre and artists.

I'm sure about everyone knows this, but when it gets to the bridges, you can actually hear Marvin going, "come on baby!" and "come on Tammi!"

I loved their partnership. You can tell they cared for each other.

When it got to the part in Unsung where Ernest Garrett talked about Marvin seeing Tammi at the audience in the Apollo Theater and rushing over to her where they sang "You're All I Need", tears came down my face.

What a tragedy. RIP Tammi.

[rovereab]

I'm sure about everyone knows this, but when it gets to the bridges, you can actually hear Marvin going, "come on baby!" and "come on Tammi!"

I loved their partnership. You can tell they cared for each other.

When it got to the part in Unsung where Ernest Garrett talked about Marvin seeing Tammi at the audience in the Apollo Theater and rushing over to her where they sang "You're All I Need", tears came down my face.

What a tragedy. RIP Tammi.

On the stereo mix you can clearly hear Marvin say "Tammi listen" just before he sings "Like an eagle protects his nest for you I'll do my best......" This really has to be one of the most personal and caring performances ever. Magic!

[SatansBlues]

Does anyone else hear Valerie Simpson on most of YAINTGB?

[marv2]

They are going to air this AGAIN?

[jboy88]

Does anyone else hear Valerie Simpson on most of YAINTGB?
I’d hope this discussion would have been put to rest when this lovingly produced series premiered 10 years ago! Bahahaaaaa, what was I thinking?!

[midnightman]

On the stereo mix you can clearly hear Marvin say "Tammi listen" just before he sings "Like an eagle protects his nest for you I'll do my best......" This really has to be one of the most personal and caring performances ever. Magic!

I sure can. :)
That song moves me more than any other M&T song... maybe just the way they carried each other and Marvin guiding her to belt it out as best as she could...

I consider that song THE masterpiece of the Marvin & Tammi era.

[midnightman]

Does anyone else hear Valerie Simpson on most of YAINTGB?

That wasn't Valerie lol

I'm also not totally convinced anymore that Valerie subbed for Tammi for the "Easy" album. I saw that Unsung and Valerie explained it thoroughly what went down. Marvin probably was so angry about the situation and probably thought Motown was forcing Tammi to sing [[despite Berry Gordy reportedly paying the hospital bills) that he felt guilty of seeing Tammi be a victim of the industry, which is how he interpreted it.

Plus, when you're on drugs as he was, your mind gets all cloudy... plus how was she still able to sing near the end of her life? She sang with Marvin at the Apollo in November '69, just right before she died, so I can believe she did sing all those songs.

But anyway, I know she sang YAINTGB all the way.

[jboy88]

That wasn't Valerie lol

I'm also not totally convinced anymore that Valerie subbed for Tammi for the "Easy" album. I saw that Unsung and Valerie explained it thoroughly what went down. Marvin probably was so angry about the situation and probably thought Motown was forcing Tammi to sing [[despite Berry Gordy reportedly paying the hospital bills) that he felt guilty of seeing Tammi be a victim of the industry, which is how he interpreted it.

Plus, when you're on drugs as he was, your mind gets all cloudy... plus how was she still able to sing near the end of her life? She sang with Marvin at the Apollo in November '69, just right before she died, so I can believe she did sing all those songs.

But anyway, I know she sang YAINTGB all the way.

The only reason why I even believe Tammi didn’t sing on “Easy” was because I was under the impression that Tammi wasn’t even aware there was an “Easy” album. Even then, I still never doubted YAINTGB no matter how many people have speculated. Marvin himself, made no comment about it. I feel the same about “Good Lovin’ Ain’t Easy To Come By”, the last song where they do the Marvin/Tammi exchange [[which is on the stereo mix).

I agree 90% with you. I don’t think Marvin was trying to throw Tammi under the bus [[If anything he was trying to throw Berry under the bus), but Marvin did have a track record of being unstable, especially around the time he made the statement. He also regularly got high while laying down vocals, so that also played a role in his recollections too.

The Apollo story also sealed the deal for me. If Tammi wasn’t keen about being replaced on stage, she would have pitched a fit if they tried to replace her in the studio, even if it was a close friend like Val. The way I see it, Valerie assisted, not replaced Tammi on the album.

[rovereab]

I consider that song THE masterpiece of the Marvin & Tammi era.

Without sounding too dramatic, I regard this song as the benchmark for all duets anywhere. Never has so much feeling been captured in one song. A wonderful legacy to Marvin and Tammi that nobody can take away.

As to Valerie singing on Easy, I think it might be a case of some of her guide vocals being left in the mix to "sweeten", using a word often associated with the Andantes, where Tammi might have been struggling a bit.

[midnightman]

The only reason why I even believe Tammi didn’t sing on “Easy” was because I was under the impression that Tammi wasn’t even aware there was an “Easy” album. Even then, I still never doubted YAINTGB no matter how many people have speculated. Marvin himself, made no comment about it. I feel the same about “Good Lovin’ Ain’t Easy To Come By”, the last song where they do the Marvin/Tammi exchange [[which is on the stereo mix).

I agree 90% with you. I don’t think Marvin was trying to throw Tammi under the bus [[If anything he was trying to throw Berry under the bus), but Marvin did have a track record of being unstable, especially around the time he made the statement. He also regularly got high while laying down vocals, so that also played a role in his recollections too.

The Apollo story also sealed the deal for me. If Tammi wasn’t keen about being replaced on stage, she would have pitched a fit if they tried to replace her in the studio, even if it was a close friend like Val. The way I see it, Valerie assisted, not replaced Tammi on the album.

Agreed on all of this.

[SatansBlues]

That wasn't Valerie lol

I'm also not totally convinced anymore that Valerie subbed for Tammi for the "Easy" album. I saw that Unsung and Valerie explained it thoroughly what went down. Marvin probably was so angry about the situation and probably thought Motown was forcing Tammi to sing [[despite Berry Gordy reportedly paying the hospital bills) that he felt guilty of seeing Tammi be a victim of the industry, which is how he interpreted it.

Plus, when you're on drugs as he was, your mind gets all cloudy... plus how was she still able to sing near the end of her life? She sang with Marvin at the Apollo in November '69, just right before she died, so I can believe she did sing all those songs.

But anyway, I know she sang YAINTGB all the way.

Let me clarify, at the beginning of the song, I believe that it's Tammi singing, but at the 1:20 mark, it sounds like Valerie Simpson to me for the rest of the song. I know this topic has been talked about in the past, but here are a couple other reasons why I think VS subbed in for an ailing TT.
1. Between the time TT collapsed on stage with Marvin until the time of her death TT had NINE different brain operation. NINE. I cannot imagine what that was like, but what condition would she have been in to travel to Detroit to record?
2. If you listen to all of TT's solo material then you have a great sense of her voice and the nuances of her voice. According to her Motown Anthology Tammi stopped recording solo material in Oct/November 1967, there are no solo recordings after that date.
3. In an interview with Ebony magazine published in late 1969 TT states that she had not been in Detroit for over a year in a half!
4 Why would Marvin lie about TT not being on the recordings? What would he have to gain?
5. Look at the number of solo songs that TT recorded that later were made into duets with Marvin, especially on the Easy album.
6. Valerie Simpson has been very cagey about subbing in for an ailing TT, saying that she only provided a vocal guide for TT, but again I ask the question, why would Marvin Gaye lie about what happened? What would he stand to gain from this?

[jboy88]

Let me clarify, at the beginning of the song, I believe that it's Tammi singing, but at the 1:20 mark, it sounds like Valerie Simpson to me for the rest of the song. I know this topic has been talked about in the past, but here are a couple other reasons why I think VS subbed in for an ailing TT.
1. Between the time TT collapsed on stage with Marvin until the time of her death TT had NINE different brain operation. NINE. I cannot imagine what that was like, but what condition would she have been in to travel to Detroit to record?
2. If you listen to all of TT's solo material then you have a great sense of her voice and the nuances of her voice. According to her Motown Anthology Tammi stopped recording solo material in Oct/November 1967, there are no solo recordings after that date.
3. In an interview with Ebony magazine published in late 1969 TT states that she had not been in Detroit for over a year in a half!
4 Why would Marvin lie about TT not being on the recordings? What would he have to gain?
5. Look at the number of solo songs that TT recorded that later were made into duets with Marvin, especially on the Easy album.
6. Valerie Simpson has been very cagey about subbing in for an ailing TT, saying that she only provided a vocal guide for TT, but again I ask the question, why would Marvin Gaye lie about what happened? What would he stand to gain from this?

1. TT NEVER mentioned not having recorded in 18 months. The article mentioned she had 6 of her 8 operation over a span of 18 months. She had one prior to the session for YAINTGB and 5 more throughout 1968.

2. Even when Tammi Terrell was healthy, they still dubbed Marvin Gaye on a couple of songs [[including “Ain’t No Mountain High Enough”) the reduce the amount of studio time.

3 Again Marvin had beef with Berry Gordy and was furious about him having Tammi continue to work. [[Even if Tammi was all for it. After all she was anxious to continue her music career) And as I mentioned before, Marvin would smoke weed during the sessions and likely had a blurry memory about most of his recordings.

A few more tidbits which might be helpful.

1. According to Jackie Jackson, Tammi Terrell was present at the Jackson 5’s performance at the Gordy mansion. Which occurred in March of ‘69 the same time most of “Easy” was recorded.
2. Tammi also made a brief appearance with James Brown, also in March of ‘69.

Marvin Gaye was a complicated man, so I’m sure in his own way, he was trying to defend Tammi. Given the album’s poor sales, they might have made an “it never happened” pact that Nick & Val wasn’t in on. Just something to think about.

[midnightman]

^ WHOA! Stop the press!

Tammi was seen with James Brown in '69? Roughly five years after that violent fight? She's a stronger person than I am 'cause had that been me being thrown down the stairs and beaten up, I wouldn't have entertained a brief reunion.

Tammi truly had a heart of gold, I guess. WOW.

Marvin definitely was defending Tammi in his own way.

We have to understand when Tammi died, Marvin changed, many say for the worse [[he smoked more weed than he had ever done before and he was already a heavy weed smoker; he started to delve deeper into cocaine, he was already battling depression after Tammi's collapse at their Virginia concert). He was REALLY affected deeply by Tammi's passing that he just began lashing out about the industry and of Motown in particular. Tammi's mother shared the same sentiment, only sending Marvin to the funeral in Philly while every other Motown act/executive [[Berry included) was not given any invitation.

[midnightman]

Let me clarify, at the beginning of the song, I believe that it's Tammi singing, but at the 1:20 mark, it sounds like Valerie Simpson to me for the rest of the song. I know this topic has been talked about in the past, but here are a couple other reasons why I think VS subbed in for an ailing TT.
1. Between the time TT collapsed on stage with Marvin until the time of her death TT had NINE different brain operation. NINE. I cannot imagine what that was like, but what condition would she have been in to travel to Detroit to record?
2. If you listen to all of TT's solo material then you have a great sense of her voice and the nuances of her voice. According to her Motown Anthology Tammi stopped recording solo material in Oct/November 1967, there are no solo recordings after that date.
3. In an interview with Ebony magazine published in late 1969 TT states that she had not been in Detroit for over a year in a half!
4 Why would Marvin lie about TT not being on the recordings? What would he have to gain?
5. Look at the number of solo songs that TT recorded that later were made into duets with Marvin, especially on the Easy album.
6. Valerie Simpson has been very cagey about subbing in for an ailing TT, saying that she only provided a vocal guide for TT, but again I ask the question, why would Marvin Gaye lie about what happened? What would he stand to gain from this?

I'm not saying Marvin lied. I think for the most part, he told the truth. Valerie did do guide vocals with him but they would always bring in Tammi. I think both Marvin and Valerie told the truth.

Here's how I now see it:
Marvin would be brought in to sing with Valerie.

Valerie in turn would bring Tammi in the studio when she was able and have her record over her guide vocal.

Also, her ninth operation came in January 1970 [[the final one was not to get rid of the cancerous tumor but to alleviate Tammi's pain and suffering, afterwards, she relapsed into a coma and died that March). The most consecutive operations she had were 6 and all occurred between October 1967 and fall 1968. The other two must've been after the "Easy" sessions.

Also, yeah, Tammi didn't record anymore solo recordings. She didn't have that much energy to do anything else anymore especially after so many operations. BUT I do believe Tammi willed herself to finish the "Easy" sessions. It wasn't easy but she was able to do it. How else did she find the strength to not only come to the Apollo Theater in November 1969 and sing with Marvin while she sat with the audience?

So to clarify, I'm not saying Marvin lied. But I'm also saying Valerie Simpson didn't lie. They both told the truth. Marvin was too bitter about how Motown was carrying on with M&T records while Tammi was understandably sick. Tammi and Marvin weren't present in the studio at the same time in the "Easy" sessions as they had been for the songs "Your Precious Love", "Ain't Nothing Like the Real Thing", "You've Got What It Takes" and "You're All I Need to Get By" and when Tammi got too sick to do any new songs on "Easy", they had Marvin vocally overdub on some of Tammi's solo recordings.

I blame David Ritz for this. He misinterpreted what Marvin told him. David Ritz is why all this confusion happened.

[rovereab]

My views are completely aligned with those expressed by midnightman above.

Looking at this thread positively, isn't it marvellous that we all still enthused by M&T's recordings to show such interest after so many years.

[midnightman]

For real. Their music is timeless.

[SatansBlues]

[QUOTE=midnightman;582712]I'm not saying Marvin lied. I think for the most part, he told the truth. Valerie did do guide vocals with him but they would always bring in Tammi. I think both Marvin and Valerie told the truth.

Here's how I now see it:
Marvin would be brought in to sing with Valerie.

Valerie in turn would bring Tammi in the studio when she was able and have her record over her guide vocal.

Also, her ninth operation came in January 1970 [[the final one was not to get rid of the cancerous tumor but to alleviate Tammi's pain and suffering, afterwards, she relapsed into a coma and died that March). The most consecutive operations she had were 6 and all occurred between October 1967 and fall 1968. The other two must've been after the "Easy" sessions.

Also, yeah, Tammi didn't record anymore solo recordings. She didn't have that much energy to do anything else anymore especially after so many operations. BUT I do believe Tammi willed herself to finish the "Easy" sessions. It wasn't easy but she was able to do it. How else did she find the strength to not only come to the Apollo Theater in November 1969 and sing with Marvin while she sat with the audience?

So to clarify, I'm not saying Marvin lied. But I'm also saying Valerie Simpson didn't lie. They both told the truth. Marvin was too bitter about how Motown was carrying on with M&T records while Tammi was understandably sick. Tammi and Marvin weren't present in the studio at the same time in the "Easy" sessions as they had been for the songs "Your Precious Love", "Ain't Nothing Like the Real Thing", "You've Got What It Takes" and "You're All I Need to Get By" and when Tammi got too sick to do any new songs on "Easy", they had Marvin vocally overdub on some of Tammi's solo recordings.

I blame David Ritz for this. He misinterpreted what Marvin told him. David Ritz is why all this confusion happened.[/Q



Marvin explains to David Ritz what happened with Tammi and Valerie and actually pulls out the Easy album and plays it for him and talks about the tracks that Tammi is singing on and the tracks that Valerie is singing on! Again, I do not doubt the veracity of Marvin's statements, weed or not. Marvin states why he went along with this because Berry Gordy convinced him that it would help provide income to TT. Motown was successful at using background singers [[Andantes) for ALL of the "girl groups", including the Supremes. Why would Motown be above replacing Tammi Terrell?

I heard directly from a former SD member who heard the actual tapes where Tammi was attempting to sing and they walked away convinced that it was Valerie singing on those duets and described TT's voice as very frail and weak and no way possible that she was able to sing those duets with Marvin.

Lastly, Motown recorded their artists not just in Detroit, but also Chicago, NYC and Los Angeles, why would they have an ailing TT travel all the way to Detroit to record and not in Philly to record while she was under treatment and recovery?

[midnightman]

[QUOTE=midnightman;582712]I'm not saying Marvin lied. I think for the most part, he told the truth. Valerie did do guide vocals with him but they would always bring in Tammi. I think both Marvin and Valerie told the truth.

Here's how I now see it:
Marvin would be brought in to sing with Valerie.

Valerie in turn would bring Tammi in the studio when she was able and have her record over her guide vocal.

Also, her ninth operation came in January 1970 [[the final one was not to get rid of the cancerous tumor but to alleviate Tammi's pain and suffering, afterwards, she relapsed into a coma and died that March). The most consecutive operations she had were 6 and all occurred between October 1967 and fall 1968. The other two must've been after the "Easy" sessions.

Also, yeah, Tammi didn't record anymore solo recordings. She didn't have that much energy to do anything else anymore especially after so many operations. BUT I do believe Tammi willed herself to finish the "Easy" sessions. It wasn't easy but she was able to do it. How else did she find the strength to not only come to the Apollo Theater in November 1969 and sing with Marvin while she sat with the audience?

So to clarify, I'm not saying Marvin lied. But I'm also saying Valerie Simpson didn't lie. They both told the truth. Marvin was too bitter about how Motown was carrying on with M&T records while Tammi was understandably sick. Tammi and Marvin weren't present in the studio at the same time in the "Easy" sessions as they had been for the songs "Your Precious Love", "Ain't Nothing Like the Real Thing", "You've Got What It Takes" and "You're All I Need to Get By" and when Tammi got too sick to do any new songs on "Easy", they had Marvin vocally overdub on some of Tammi's solo recordings.

I blame David Ritz for this. He misinterpreted what Marvin told him. David Ritz is why all this confusion happened.[/Q



Marvin explains to David Ritz what happened with Tammi and Valerie and actually pulls out the Easy album and plays it for him and talks about the tracks that Tammi is singing on and the tracks that Valerie is singing on! Again, I do not doubt the veracity of Marvin's statements, weed or not. Marvin states why he went along with this because Berry Gordy convinced him that it would help provide income to TT. Motown was successful at using background singers [[Andantes) for ALL of the "girl groups", including the Supremes. Why would Motown be above replacing Tammi Terrell?

I heard directly from a former SD member who heard the actual tapes where Tammi was attempting to sing and they walked away convinced that it was Valerie singing on those duets and described TT's voice as very frail and weak and no way possible that she was able to sing those duets with Marvin.

Lastly, Motown recorded their artists not just in Detroit, but also Chicago, NYC and Los Angeles, why would they have an ailing TT travel all the way to Detroit to record and not in Philly to record while she was under treatment and recovery?

It would be interesting if we can get these audio tapes? Doubt Berry would want these to come out if they exist. I did read that part of the book where Marvin played the songs from "Easy" to David...

[SatansBlues]

Look at the song Baby I Need Your Loving, produced by Ashford and Simpson on the Easy album, DFTMC list it as having been completed on March 17, 1969 and recorded at Hitsville/GW. By TT's own account in the Ebony interview she had not been in Detroit to record in a year and a half. How is this possible? Same for the tracks What You Gave Me, How You Gonna Keep It, The Onion Song, California Soul, Love Woke Me Up This Morning and I'm Your Puppet, all completed the same day. This Poor Heart of Mine March 18, 1969. Interesting note to I'm Your Puppet on DFTM the notes say that the fem lead is done by VS.

[jboy88]

Look at the song Baby I Need Your Loving, produced by Ashford and Simpson on the Easy album, DFTMC list it as having been completed on March 17, 1969 and recorded at Hitsville/GW. By TT's own account in the Ebony interview she had not been in Detroit to record in a year and a half. How is this possible? Same for the tracks What You Gave Me, How You Gonna Keep It, The Onion Song, California Soul, Love Woke Me Up This Morning and I'm Your Puppet, all completed the same day. This Poor Heart of Mine March 18, 1969. Interesting note to I'm Your Puppet on DFTM the notes say that the fem lead is done by VS.

The J5 show took place on March 11, and the VS note only appears on the one song. Also there’s “Dark Side of the World” which was recorded a week after but only Marvin layed down vocals. Also the liner notes to TCMS ‘69 list Marvin cutting his vocals in New York City [[ a 2 hour drive from Philly in those days), Tammi likely recorded there too.

One thing that struck me as odd about Marvin’s claim. He stated it MIGHT be Tammi on “I Can’t Believe You Love Me”, when that was done well before they were paired together.

And Tammi NEVER said she hadn’t been to Detroit in a year and a half.

[jboy88]

Frankly, I’m convinced that some people just aren’t comfortable with the idea of an ailing Tammi continuing to work. Which is why they dismiss any bit of info that suggests she might have so much as blow into a mic on the “Easy” album.

[motony]

I loved "The Onion Song" when I first heard it on the radio and bought the 45, but the more I listened to it the more I thought it was Valerie Simpson singing in place of Tammi. As big as Marvin & Tammi records had been it was like all promotion had been pulled beginning with "Good Lovin Ain't Easy to Come By". Differnt little blips had come out at the time that Tammi was seriously ill.

[SatansBlues]

I ran across this thread on the topic. Great discussion here, if you're into that sort of things...

https://soulfuldetroit.com/showthread.php?4223-Valerie-on-the-Tammi-vocals-question-At-last!!!!!!!&highlight=Marvin+Gaye+Tammi+Terrell

[midnightman]

I loved "The Onion Song" when I first heard it on the radio and bought the 45, but the more I listened to it the more I thought it was Valerie Simpson singing in place of Tammi. As big as Marvin & Tammi records had been it was like all promotion had been pulled beginning with "Good Lovin Ain't Easy to Come By". Differnt little blips had come out at the time that Tammi was seriously ill.

That would make sense why suddenly those records only were modestly successful. Interesting... but I guess when someone becomes too ill to perform, promotion becomes hard to do.

[rovereab]

The Onion Song was a big hit in the UK, I wonder where it could have reached in the chart with a Top Of The Pops promotion of the two singing it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Onion_Song

[midnightman]

The Onion Song was a big hit in the UK, I wonder where it could have reached in the chart with a Top Of The Pops promotion of the two singing it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Onion_Song

Probably between #3-5.

[TammiTerrellFan]

Watched this again today. Sure makes my heart ache to know how much Tammi went through. A true soldier, God Bless Her.