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zani57
06-21-2020, 02:41 AM
Added to "Ed Sullivan Show" YouTube channel on June 20 --


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lXrP3wFfBrM

marv2
06-21-2020, 10:31 AM
I remember this particular appearance got talked about a lot in school the next morning.

detmotownguy
06-21-2020, 10:38 AM
Added to "Ed Sullivan Show" YouTube channel on June 20 --


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lXrP3wFfBrM
Mary and Cindy were dancing up a storm on “Losing You”. I have always wondered how much Rehearsal time is involved for something like this? David had an incredible voice. Thanks for posting.

nathanj06
06-21-2020, 12:05 PM
I always enjoyed this performance. Ahh, the days of superior talent...It wasn't long after this that David was gone I think?

captainjames
06-21-2020, 04:57 PM
One of the best things Motown finally did was to pair the two groups up.

DWSheffer
06-21-2020, 10:49 PM
I was so glad to see this one enhanced and I added it to my favorites before the video even started! I just love to watch Diana groove in this performance and her head movements, which are only accentuated by the large wig, which is among my overall favorite looks for Miss Ross.
Darin

Soulmusic4life
06-24-2020, 12:30 AM
David absolutely blows her away. The clip looks the same. Nothing enhanced.

luke
06-24-2020, 11:14 AM
Wasn’t David unhappy because songs arranged too high in Diana’s key?

marv2
06-24-2020, 03:18 PM
David absolutely blows her away. The clip looks the same. Nothing enhanced.

He was vocally murdering her. She complained about it at rehearsal.

marv2
06-24-2020, 03:19 PM
Wasn’t David unhappy because songs arranged too high in Diana’s key?

He was, but Diana was upset that he was singing circles around her and went to Mr. Gordy to have the key raised.

SatansBlues
06-24-2020, 06:51 PM
Two of the Greatest Groups of All Time.

gman
06-24-2020, 08:39 PM
David just out a out SLAYED that Baby Baby I'm A-WHERE lyric!...and he looks almost as skinny as Diana.

monicarivers
06-24-2020, 08:40 PM
David absolutely blows her away. The clip looks the same. Nothing enhanced.

Riveting. Like anyone with two ears and a brain wouldn’t have acknowledged the fact that David Ruffin had a more powerful, soulful voice than Diana Ross. Next week, please enlighten us with your infinite wisdom and let us know that Earth is larger than Mars.

monicarivers
06-24-2020, 08:42 PM
David just out a out SLAYED that Baby Baby I'm A-WHERE lyric!...and he looks almost as skinny as Diana.

I love David’s voice - not as much as Eddie [[I’m a falsetto kinda gal) but the misogynists around here give him a hall pass for his drug addiction and abusive behavior. Meanwhile, we’re still slamming Diana for getting a DUI twenty years ago. Look who’s still standing.

Roberta75
06-24-2020, 08:44 PM
Wasn’t David unhappy because songs arranged too high in Diana’s key?

Asked with the innocence of Shirley Temple. LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

Ollie9
06-25-2020, 04:37 AM
Asked with the innocence of Shirley Temple. LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

That’s a good one Roberta. Thank you for helping me start the day with a chuckle ;). Beautiful day here in the UK.

Ollie9
06-25-2020, 07:02 AM
Wasn’t David unhappy because songs arranged too high in Diana’s key?

So legend has it. Whether that’s true or false i have never been quite sure. I think both singers do a really good job using their own individual singing styles.

Soulmusic4life
06-25-2020, 07:58 AM
Riveting. Like anyone with two ears and a brain wouldn’t have acknowledged the fact that David Ruffin had a more powerful, soulful voice than Diana Ross. Next week, please enlighten us with your infinite wisdom and let us know that Earth is larger than Mars.
Whatever. Go piss off asshole

captainjames
06-25-2020, 08:25 AM
Again, I applaud Motown for putting these two groups together finally. I think both groups benefited regarding the fan base who surrounded the groups. Also, with everything that was going in the 60's they kind of knocked down doors with this.

lucky2012
06-25-2020, 10:36 AM
So legend has it. Whether that’s true or false i have never been quite sure. I think both singers do a really good job using their own individual singing styles.

I'm not sure, either, and at this point I don't really care. I loved seeing the two groups together [[and on Ed Sullivan!). I thought both Diana and David performed admirably in their own distinct and different styles. I think the vast majority of Ed Sullivan's TV audience didn't compare and contrast "styles". It was a national, far-reaching, diverse audience.

Roberta75
06-25-2020, 10:57 AM
That’s a good one Roberta. Thank you for helping me start the day with a chuckle ;). Beautiful day here in the UK.

Enjoy your day dear Ollie.

Fondly,

Roberta

jobucats
06-25-2020, 12:46 PM
I'm not sure, either, and at this point I don't really care. I loved seeing the two groups together [[and on Ed Sullivan!). I thought both Diana and David performed admirably in their own distinct and different styles. I think the vast majority of Ed Sullivan's TV audience didn't compare and contrast "styles". It was a national, far-reaching, diverse audience.

I agree. Most folk view such performances to be entertained although there are always going to be people who don't view or listen for musical entertainment, but to analyze and compare. Both Diana and David, indeed, were very good in their presentations. But it's human nature, I guess, that die hard fans look more into a situation than what is really there and suggest some 'conspiracy' theories as to what was really going on in the artists' minds at the time.

Ollie9
06-25-2020, 12:49 PM
I'm not sure, either, and at this point I don't really care. I loved seeing the two groups together [[and on Ed Sullivan!). I thought both Diana and David performed admirably in their own distinct and different styles. I think the vast majority of Ed Sullivan's TV audience didn't compare and contrast "styles". It was a national, far-reaching, diverse audience.

Agree. Having said, i would still like to know if the incident did happen. Its all part of Motown history after all.
If indeed it did, then i don’t really blame Diana at all. If I had the clout and a key change was going to make me sound a lot better i would probably have done the exact same thing. In a nice a way as possible....of course. :)

RanRan79
06-25-2020, 02:45 PM
One of the best things Motown finally did was to pair the two groups up.

There was also their appearance on Mike Douglas together in 1966, but I think their performance together was more impromptu than an elaborately put together act, such as this Sullivan performance and the television specials. But I agree, absolutely fantastic decision.

RanRan79
06-25-2020, 02:47 PM
So legend has it. Whether that’s true or false i have never been quite sure. I think both singers do a really good job using their own individual singing styles.

I agree. They both sound fantastic. I really hate that David was fired before the Join sessions took place. I would've loved to hear how he and Diana sounded in the studio.

RanRan79
06-25-2020, 02:54 PM
I agree. Most folk view such performances to be entertained although there are always going to be people who don't view or listen for musical entertainment, but to analyze and compare. Both Diana and David, indeed, were very good in their presentations. But it's human nature, I guess, that die hard fans look more into a situation than what is really there and suggest some 'conspiracy' theories as to what was really going on in the artists' minds at the time.

I'll add to this, that another component of the gossip are the books that have been released over the last 35 or so years. As soon as a book publishes a story, some fans commit it to memory and repeat as though it's scripture. It would be interesting if we had the ability to remix history and see how differently a forum such as this plays out without information culled from gossipy books having been available.

Of course that probably still wouldn't stop certain people who's great aunt's neighbor was the postman for somebody else's cousin who's boyfriend's grandfather used to cut the hair of the nephew of a woman who once heard Diana Ross tell Mary Wilson to shut up.:rolleyes:

RanRan79
06-25-2020, 02:58 PM
Agree. Having said, i would still like to know if the incident did happen. Its all part of Motown history after all.
If indeed it did, then i don’t really blame Diana at all. If I had the clout and a key change was going to make me sound a lot better i would probably have done the exact same thing. In a nice a way as possible....of course. :)

I find the story questionable. Why would Motown send it's two biggest acts onto one of the most popular shows of the time and allow either one to come across as inferior? Again, I think this is a JRT book story, as I can't recall seeing it documented anywhere else. It makes more sense that a key was found that complimented Diana and David, a key which was probably a little lower for her and a little higher for him. The fact that neither singer sounds any better or worse than they normally do squashes the conspiracy theory in my mind.

milven
06-25-2020, 03:06 PM
...Of course that probably still wouldn't stop certain people who's great aunt's neighbor was the postman for somebody else's cousin who's boyfriend's grandfather used to cut the hair of the nephew of a woman who once heard Diana Ross tell Mary Wilson to shut up.:rolleyes:
https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcQiITyPtAB4YFQRp1fApDBD_fP9oRz T1oHd5A&usqp=CAU

sup_fan
06-25-2020, 03:38 PM
I agree. Most folk view such performances to be entertained although there are always going to be people who don't view or listen for musical entertainment, but to analyze and compare. Both Diana and David, indeed, were very good in their presentations. But it's human nature, I guess, that die hard fans look more into a situation than what is really there and suggest some 'conspiracy' theories as to what was really going on in the artists' minds at the time.

i'm not quite so sure about this legend either.

both the temps and four tops were recorded in keys that made the male lead vocalist [[both David and Levi are baritones) strain into the upper reaches of their range. the upper reaches of a baritone are right in line with an alto female singer.

When the musical arrangers pulled this medley together, odds are they would NOT have significantly changed the keys of each tune from the original. So these would be perfectly within Diana's range.

plus you REALLY think the musical arrangers at motown [[ie Maurice King) wouldn't have know what keys Diana sounds good in? and wouldn't said musical arranger frankly be more focused on Diana than any of the others, seeing as how that was the typical way of things at motown?

now i COULD imagine that there were various little prima donna moments from both Diana and David. probably Eddie too. they all had huge egos. so someone might not have liked one bit of staging and someone else felt another singer had too many more measure of song to sing, etc etc.

sup_fan
06-25-2020, 03:39 PM
I find the story questionable. Why would Motown send it's two biggest acts onto one of the most popular shows of the time and allow either one to come across as inferior? Again, I think this is a JRT book story, as I can't recall seeing it documented anywhere else. It makes more sense that a key was found that complimented Diana and David, a key which was probably a little lower for her and a little higher for him. The fact that neither singer sounds any better or worse than they normally do squashes the conspiracy theory in my mind.

agreed! we much have been typing at the same time lolol Said pretty much the same thing

Ollie9
06-25-2020, 03:40 PM
I find the story questionable. Why would Motown send it's two biggest acts onto one of the most popular shows of the time and allow either one to come across as inferior? Again, I think this is a JRT book story, as I can't recall seeing it documented anywhere else. It makes more sense that a key was found that complimented Diana and David, a key which was probably a little lower for her and a little higher for him. The fact that neither singer sounds any better or worse than they normally do squashes the conspiracy theory in my mind.

It does seem a little odd i agree. The only possible I can think of is if Diana sprung the key change out of the blue at the eleventh hour. Even if it were true, i personally don’t find it that big a deal. Does anyone know if any of the Temptations have ever mentioned it?.

sup_fan
06-25-2020, 04:58 PM
the only indepth info on the Temps is Otis' book. at least that i'm aware of. of course you can pull out Deliver Us From Temptation by Miss Tonita Turner lolol. that's another source, so to speak lol

otis doesn't mention this at all in his book

marv2
06-25-2020, 05:13 PM
This appearance aired on Easter or around Easter that year I recall.

Roberta75
06-25-2020, 05:27 PM
of course that probably still wouldn't stop certain people who's great aunt's neighbor was the postman for somebody else's cousin who's boyfriend's grandfather used to cut the hair of the nephew of a woman who once heard diana ross tell mary wilson to shut up.:rolleyes:

lolololololololololololololol

reese
06-25-2020, 07:55 PM
It does seem a little odd i agree. The only possible I can think of is if Diana sprung the key change out of the blue at the eleventh hour. Even if it were true, i personally don’t find it that big a deal. Does anyone know if any of the Temptations have ever mentioned it?.

Otis mentioned it in his book. He said during rehearsals everyone was giving their all and David's best was always fantastic. But Diana thought the key was too low for her. Maurice King told the Tempts not to worry because she was just pissed because "you guys are giving her hell." But Diana told Berry and Berry instructed Maurice to raise the key so that it was barely within David's range. In the meantime, Diana devoted hours to rehearsing and was in great form by showtime.

Now old memories aside, I think the medley as performed here is perfect. So if it had been done in a lower key, it probably wouldn't have sounded as good as it does. Both Diana and David shine.

marv2
06-25-2020, 08:13 PM
This is not the Supremes and Temptations first television appearance together despite what Ed Sullivan said. They appeared together on The Mike Douglas Show together a few years earlier.

khansperac
06-25-2020, 08:16 PM
To my ears Eddie, David, and Diana are singing in the same keys they always did. They literally sound like they always did.

sup_fan
06-25-2020, 10:57 PM
Otis mentioned it in his book. He said during rehearsals everyone was giving their all and David's best was always fantastic. But Diana thought the key was too low for her. Maurice King told the Tempts not to worry because she was just pissed because "you guys are giving her hell." But Diana told Berry and Berry instructed Maurice to raise the key so that it was barely within David's range. In the meantime, Diana devoted hours to rehearsing and was in great form by showtime.

Now old memories aside, I think the medley as performed here is perfect. So if it had been done in a lower key, it probably wouldn't have sounded as good as it does. Both Diana and David shine.

i flipped through the book looking for that and couldn't find it. But i certainly didn't read every page. i thought the Maurice King story was from the Tony Turner sagas and not Otis'. but could have them mixed up

i completely agree with your point that the medley sounded excellent! and none of the songs sound radically changed, in terms of key, from the originals.

Does anyone know what the groups sang on Mike Douglas? The pic of the groups together looks rather casual. The girls are in day clothes not matching gowns or outfits. Did they all interview together?

reese
06-25-2020, 11:42 PM
i flipped through the book looking for that and couldn't find it. But i certainly didn't read every page. i thought the Maurice King story was from the Tony Turner sagas and not Otis'. but could have them mixed up

i completely agree with your point that the medley sounded excellent! and none of the songs sound radically changed, in terms of key, from the originals.

Does anyone know what the groups sang on Mike Douglas? The pic of the groups together looks rather casual. The girls are in day clothes not matching gowns or outfits. Did they all interview together?

Just for reference, the story is on pp. 107–108 in the hardcover edition of Otis' book, released 1988. Otis had been talking about how Shelly Berger had recently began managing both the Supremes and the Tempts and one of the first things he did was team them for concert [[Forest Hills Stadium) and tv appearances. Then he tells the story of the Sullivan appearance. IMO, he didn't tell it with any bitterness. Just the way he saw it.

The next year, J. Randy put it in his book and made it a shade darker, although somewhat sad as well. Randy mentioned how during one rehearsal, Mary and Cindy and the Tempts gathered around a piano and sang old doo-wop standards to each other. In a corner, Diana sat alone observing, singing along and bopping her head to the beat, obviously wanting to join in but feeling left out.

Tony Turner also included it in his book on the Tempts and of course, put his patented spin on it

Re the Mike Douglas appearance, I think there was first some sort of dance demonstration, a photo of which is in the booklet for the Tempts' anthology. I could swear someone mentioned on here what the groups sang together but I can't find that info.

RanRan79
06-25-2020, 11:54 PM
agreed! we much have been typing at the same time lolol Said pretty much the same thing

Great minds, my friend!

RanRan79
06-25-2020, 11:58 PM
Otis mentioned it in his book. He said during rehearsals everyone was giving their all and David's best was always fantastic. But Diana thought the key was too low for her. Maurice King told the Tempts not to worry because she was just pissed because "you guys are giving her hell." But Diana told Berry and Berry instructed Maurice to raise the key so that it was barely within David's range. In the meantime, Diana devoted hours to rehearsing and was in great form by showtime.

Now old memories aside, I think the medley as performed here is perfect. So if it had been done in a lower key, it probably wouldn't have sounded as good as it does. Both Diana and David shine.

Thanks Reese! Now noted that Otis confirms the story. Or originates it, as the case may be. I agree, they sound perfect.

zani57
06-26-2020, 01:16 AM
The article below from The Detroit Free Press explains why all of these videos are re-surfacing again now. For that person who said that they are not enhanced, the video quality looks much better to me than what I have seen in other formats --

https://amp.freep.com/amp/5338761002 [[https://amp.freep.com/amp/5338761002)

marv2
06-26-2020, 01:28 AM
The article below from The Detroit Free Press explains why all of these videos are re-surfacing again now. For that person who said that they are not enhanced, the video quality looks much better to me than what I have seen in other formats --

https://amp.freep.com/amp/5338761002 [[https://amp.freep.com/amp/5338761002)

Great article. We were one of those families that watched it every Sunday night. Thanks Zani57!

Ollie9
06-26-2020, 04:42 AM
Otis mentioned it in his book. He said during rehearsals everyone was giving their all and David's best was always fantastic. But Diana thought the key was too low for her. Maurice King told the Tempts not to worry because she was just pissed because "you guys are giving her hell." But Diana told Berry and Berry instructed Maurice to raise the key so that it was barely within David's range. In the meantime, Diana devoted hours to rehearsing and was in great form by showtime.

Now old memories aside, I think the medley as performed here is perfect. So if it had been done in a lower key, it probably wouldn't have sounded as good as it does. Both Diana and David shine.

Many thanks for the info reese. I agree that both singers do a great job. My only complaint being the performance it is all to short. I would have loved to have seen a little more. :cool:

TheMotownManiac
06-26-2020, 05:09 AM
So legend has it. Whether that’s true or false i have never been quite sure. I think both singers do a really good job using their own individual singing styles.

well I will never understand about this legend is this, I think everyone will admit that David Ruffin is doing a great job in the Medley in the key that it is in. If that is acknowledged by all as it seems to be here, what purpose would there be to have a medley in a lower key that he could sing in and diana could not? Are some of you suggesting that this television appearance would’ve been better served if the key were lower than one Diana could vocalize in?

David had two or three minutes on this show singing, Diana had the whole medley, green sleeves, thou swell, plus in and out of love. Miss Ross had things to do that day! Singing in the wrong key with David Ruffin was not going to be one of them.

this is another whiny, bitchy, flimsy piece of idiocy prattled on by those who are so quick to judge and shame, they don’t think of the practical reason for the key change. Evidently Otis felt that a key serving both was not preferable. It’s so childish. I much prefer the horror story of diana sleeping on the couch and mary sleeping on the floor, or how mean mean mean Diana was to accuse Mary of stealing the prize money and then spending freely at the amusement park after.

Ollie9
06-26-2020, 06:35 AM
well I will never understand about this legend is this, I think everyone will admit that David Ruffin is doing a great job in the Medley in the key that it is in. If that is acknowledged by all as it seems to be here, what purpose would there be to have a medley in a lower key that he could sing in and diana could not? Are some of you suggesting that this television appearance would’ve been better served if the key were lower than one Diana could vocalize in?

David had two or three minutes on this show singing, Diana had the whole medley, green sleeves, thou swell, plus in and out of love. Miss Ross had things to do that day! Singing in the wrong key with David Ruffin was not going to be one of them.

this is another whiny, bitchy, flimsy piece of idiocy prattled on by those who are so quick to judge and shame, they don’t think of the practical reason for the key change. Evidently Otis felt that a key serving both was not preferable. It’s so childish. I much prefer the horror story of diana sleeping on the couch and mary sleeping on the floor, or how mean mean mean Diana was to accuse Mary of stealing the prize money and then spending freely at the amusement park after.

I was really not aware anyone was suggesting anything. I’ve repeatedly mentioned I think both singers do a great job so find it strange you attach this to my post.
As far as I can make out the thread is merely a discussion about an incident that according to a least one original Temptation actually happened. Whether one chooses to believe it or not or considers it a complete irrelevance is most certainly personal choice. For me personally it’s no big a deal. Are you saying Otis made the whole thing up to be nasty?. Perhaps if he had written Diana spent an hour after the show distributing funds to the sick and needy it might be more readily accepted??.
Im a little confused here. :confused:

RanRan79
06-26-2020, 06:55 AM
I much prefer the horror story of diana sleeping on the couch and mary sleeping on the floor,

I know that story was written in Mary's first book to illustrate the portrayal of a selfish Diana Ross, but I always thought it made Mary look like more of an idiot. There's no way I'm sleeping on the floor every night at my relative's house while you get the couch every night. I'm not waiting on you to suggest we alternate nights, I'm telling you we're alternating nights. Diana Ross in all likelihood was a selfish young lady, but I can see how tempting it might have been for her to pay someone like Mary no mind if you wait 20 years to say you wanted to sleep on the couch.

blackguy69
06-26-2020, 07:31 AM
Sometimes life is more stranger than fiction.

I know that story was written in Mary's first book to illustrate the portrayal of a selfish Diana Ross, but I always thought it made Mary look like more of an idiot. There's no way I'm sleeping on the floor every night at my relative's house while you get the couch every night. I'm not waiting on you to suggest we alternate nights, I'm telling you we're alternating nights. Diana Ross in all likelihood was a selfish young lady, but I can see how tempting it might have been for her to pay someone like Mary no mind if you wait 20 years to say you wanted to sleep on the couch.

khansperac
06-26-2020, 09:28 AM
What key does David usually sing in, and what key is he singing here? Is it a major difference?

sup_fan
06-26-2020, 11:13 AM
Just for reference, the story is on pp. 107–108 in the hardcover edition of Otis' book, released 1988. Otis had been talking about how Shelly Berger had recently began managing both the Supremes and the Tempts and one of the first things he did was team them for concert [[Forest Hills Stadium) and tv appearances. Then he tells the story of the Sullivan appearance. IMO, he didn't tell it with any bitterness. Just the way he saw it.

The next year, J. Randy put it in his book and made it a shade darker, although somewhat sad as well. Randy mentioned how during one rehearsal, Mary and Cindy and the Tempts gathered around a piano and sang old doo-wop standards to each other. In a corner, Diana sat alone observing, singing along and bopping her head to the beat, obviously wanting to join in but feeling left out.

Tony Turner also included it in his book on the Tempts and of course, put his patented spin on it

Re the Mike Douglas appearance, I think there was first some sort of dance demonstration, a photo of which is in the booklet for the Tempts' anthology. I could swear someone mentioned on here what the groups sang together but I can't find that info.

good call reese! i stand corrected. :) and that's what i love about this forum and sharing info and learning more!

I've seen a pic of the sups and temps on Douglas. they appear to be dancing, singing, having fun. no idea if they're singing one of their tunes, some pop or MOR song, who knows

sup_fan
06-26-2020, 11:18 AM
I know that story was written in Mary's first book to illustrate the portrayal of a selfish Diana Ross, but I always thought it made Mary look like more of an idiot. There's no way I'm sleeping on the floor every night at my relative's house while you get the couch every night. I'm not waiting on you to suggest we alternate nights, I'm telling you we're alternating nights. Diana Ross in all likelihood was a selfish young lady, but I can see how tempting it might have been for her to pay someone like Mary no mind if you wait 20 years to say you wanted to sleep on the couch.

i agree that some of the stories in Mary's book frankly come off a little petty. i mean - seriously!! who's gonna bring up something as trivial as who slept on what surface in 1959?!?! and bringing it up 25 years later. they were young kids - all pre-teens do idiotic things

if mary's goal was to paint diana as a conniving scheming bitch, she should have focused on more specifics that occurred within the group. not ordering pizza late at night or arriving at an interview with snazzy earrings and outfit.

blackguy69
06-26-2020, 11:49 AM
Actually I get why it was mentioned. It does seem petty if it was a isolated incident or two but it’s showing a bigger picture starting with smaller stuff and working It’s way up.
i agree that some of the stories in Mary's book frankly come off a little petty. i mean - seriously!! who's gonna bring up something as trivial as who slept on what surface in 1959?!?! and bringing it up 25 years later. they were young kids - all pre-teens do idiotic things

if mary's goal was to paint diana as a conniving scheming bitch, she should have focused on more specifics that occurred within the group. not ordering pizza late at night or arriving at an interview with snazzy earrings and outfit.

sup_fan
06-26-2020, 11:58 AM
but it's very one-sided. Mary doesn't acknowledge any idiot things she did as a teen. and her books fails to highlight the many positive things Diana did to accelerate the group's career. That Diana was willing to do spend MUCH more time in the studio than mary or flo, that diana worked tirelessly to perfect her components of the stage show, etc.

yet every little slight diana committed to mary, flo and/or cindy seems to be present in the books

blackguy69
06-26-2020, 12:24 PM
Its her book so what were you expecting? As far as the studio. That can be a positive and a negative. It would show she will work hard but on the flip side it shows that they wouldn’t be bothered having Mary and Flo coming into the studio.
but it's very one-sided. Mary doesn't acknowledge any idiot things she did as a teen. and her books fails to highlight the many positive things Diana did to accelerate the group's career. That Diana was willing to do spend MUCH more time in the studio than mary or flo, that diana worked tirelessly to perfect her components of the stage show, etc.

yet every little slight diana committed to mary, flo and/or cindy seems to be present in the books

blackguy69
06-26-2020, 12:42 PM
Actually all of us in here are being Very judgmental in regards to the girls lives on and off the stage. None of us were on the road with them or in their lives 24/7 when these events occurred. The girls are the only ones that truly know what really happened and of course they will spin it to their favor. All second and third hand stories are just that , rehashed stories with something added or left off. Always remember 5 of us can see an incident and give 5 different stories on what happened. Doesn’t mean they’re lying , it just means they saw it from their angle.

RanRan79
06-26-2020, 12:46 PM
i agree that some of the stories in Mary's book frankly come off a little petty. i mean - seriously!! who's gonna bring up something as trivial as who slept on what surface in 1959?!?! and bringing it up 25 years later. they were young kids - all pre-teens do idiotic things

if mary's goal was to paint diana as a conniving scheming bitch, she should have focused on more specifics that occurred within the group. not ordering pizza late at night or arriving at an interview with snazzy earrings and outfit.

I believe Mary's point was to illustrate that even way back then [[this story, if memory serves me correctly, was actually in 1962 when Flo was a temp Marvelette and Mary and Diana decided to head to Chicago for a bit) Diana was self centered. And if the story is true, it certainly makes Diana look exactly like that. But what nut would let her do it? Can you imagine if they were at a Ballard relative's home? Flo would've been like "Bitch get yo ass on the floor. You had the couch last night. Who you supposed to be, Queen Diane?":cool:

And sadly, because since the time of the book, other things have been proven false, one has to wonder if in reality Mary's relatives may have told Mary "Let your friend have the sofa" in order to be hospitable to someone who wasn't family and then Mary remixed the story for her book as Diana took the couch without any regard for Mary's feelings. Not saying this is how it was, just that I'm wondering if it's a possibility.

RanRan79
06-26-2020, 12:48 PM
Actually I get why it was mentioned. It does seem petty if it was a isolated incident or two but it’s showing a bigger picture starting with smaller stuff and working It’s way up.

Agreed. The suggestion throughout the book is that there was a pattern of behavior that went back longer than their first hit song.

RanRan79
06-26-2020, 12:56 PM
but it's very one-sided. Mary doesn't acknowledge any idiot things she did as a teen. and her books fails to highlight the many positive things Diana did to accelerate the group's career. That Diana was willing to do spend MUCH more time in the studio than mary or flo, that diana worked tirelessly to perfect her components of the stage show, etc.

yet every little slight diana committed to mary, flo and/or cindy seems to be present in the books

Yes!! I've been saying this all along. We get all these stories about bad, mean Diana, but not about Mary. Even the story Mary writes about Diana accusing Brenda Holloway of stealing her shoes or a hairspray or a brush or something stupid [[although stealing shoes isn't something stupid, that's pretty serious), Mary's story is all Diana. Mean Diane went off on this little girl and then turned out to be wrong about whatever it was. Yet when Brenda tells the story, Mary is right behind Diana egging it on.

We get almost a crash course in Diana's love life. Meanwhile Mary's love life gets mostly a paragraph 200 pages apart. There's no way Mary could avoid writing about Diana and Berry because of it's impact on the group. The passages about that relationship are fair game. But the story about Diana and the white guy from DC, Diana and Brian Holland, even Diana and the football player she was apparently seeing briefly in the late 60s, this was necessary because...?

Mary's life appears to me to be far more interesting than some are willing to give credit for. It's a pity we get very little of it in her first book because of the choice to focus on Diana, and to a lesser extent Florence.

RanRan79
06-26-2020, 01:07 PM
Its her book so what were you expecting? As far as the studio. That can be a positive and a negative. It would show she will work hard but on the flip side it shows that they wouldn’t be bothered having Mary and Flo coming into the studio.

Yeah it's her book, so I think somebody like me was expecting her to write about, oh I don't know, herself.:p

I do agree about the studio. I don't think Diana was willing to spend any more time in the studio than Flo or Mary. The producers decided who they wanted to sing lead and they recorded the lead singer. Sure, most of the time they wanted the actual Supremes to sing backup, and apparently that's what they got. But one has to wonder how demoralizing it was when Flo and/or Mary would discover they weren't on a track, for whatever reason. [[And yet still being charged for the studio time.) I can imagine at a certain point there wasn't always an incentive to do as they were told. Can you imagine how Diana's work ethic might have suffered if she started finding out her leads were replaced with Flo or Mary? Yikes.

Even the Christmas album debacle is a bit strange. Diana says she recorded the album all by herself while Flo and Mary went on a break, but Flo and Mary recorded leads for the album during the same time Diana was laying down leads, so something doesn't make sense.

RanRan79
06-26-2020, 01:13 PM
Actually all of us in here are being Very judgmental in regards to the girls lives on and off the stage. None of us were on the road with them or in their lives 24/7 when these events occurred. The girls are the only ones that truly know what really happened and of course they will spin it to their favor. All second and third hand stories are just that , rehashed stories with something added or left off. Always remember 5 of us can see an incident and give 5 different stories on what happened. Doesn’t mean they’re lying , it just means they saw it from their angle.

True, but if you put a story out there, you gotta expect for people to formulate thoughts and opinions. Mary wrote a book because she wanted her version of the story out there. It's impossible to read a book and not form an opinion. At least I think it's impossible. I can only speak for myself, but I do think I'm being a bit judgmental with my criticism of Mary not speaking up about the couch. While Flo was probably the type to say something, Mary hasn't always proven to be someone willing to speak up for herself or others. That's life. But my opinion about the story remains the same. While I don't think Dreamgirl was as harsh on Diana as some fans seem to think, it's clear this book was supposed to be more or less a hatchet job on the woman Mary once turned to for help when no one else would, and then IMO, ushered in the nonsense we see in this forum between those who worship at the feet of Mary and those who worship at the feet of Diana.

sup_fan
06-26-2020, 01:56 PM
Actually all of us in here are being Very judgmental in regards to the girls lives on and off the stage. None of us were on the road with them or in their lives 24/7 when these events occurred. The girls are the only ones that truly know what really happened and of course they will spin it to their favor. All second and third hand stories are just that , rehashed stories with something added or left off. Always remember 5 of us can see an incident and give 5 different stories on what happened. Doesn’t mean they’re lying , it just means they saw it from their angle.

i completely agree! well said

and you're right about mary's book. of course she wasn't going to include much that might put her in a negative light.

there were stories from Gil that were wonderfully balanced about the girls and how both mary and diana were really, really anguished over Flo's decline. both really wanted to help and tried to keep things together.

I guess Diana finally said "look - we've tried and enough is enough. this isn't working." seems that mary was in agreement with that.

luke
06-26-2020, 02:01 PM
Mary is a pretty nice person. Not perfect but a peacekeeper and didn’t like conflict so she wasn’t usually difficult.

sup_fan
06-26-2020, 02:04 PM
Yeah it's her book, so I think somebody like me was expecting her to write about, oh I don't know, herself.:p

I do agree about the studio. I don't think Diana was willing to spend any more time in the studio than Flo or Mary. The producers decided who they wanted to sing lead and they recorded the lead singer. Sure, most of the time they wanted the actual Supremes to sing backup, and apparently that's what they got. But one has to wonder how demoralizing it was when Flo and/or Mary would discover they weren't on a track, for whatever reason. [[And yet still being charged for the studio time.) I can imagine at a certain point there wasn't always an incentive to do as they were told. Can you imagine how Diana's work ethic might have suffered if she started finding out her leads were replaced with Flo or Mary? Yikes.

Even the Christmas album debacle is a bit strange. Diana says she recorded the album all by herself while Flo and Mary went on a break, but Flo and Mary recorded leads for the album during the same time Diana was laying down leads, so something doesn't make sense.

in my timeline work, i've listed out the session dates for the Xmas lp. It isn't as if the girls dedicated weeks and weeks to rehearsal, studio time, experimentation. it really was a factory assembly line. when their part was needed, they got into the studio. that was it. because everything was recorded separately, it seems they would have blocks of time for lead vocals and blocks for background. plus all of the other musicians. i doubt the producers often had the entire band and orchestra all there. they'd record the funk bros, then set time to record strings, then start layering it all together, then decide they needed more strings or revised backing vocals or a harmonica or more ooomph on the percussion, or whatever. so all of these would have had separate recording times

then add in all of the different producers - HDH, mickey stevenson, smokey, norman, clarence paul, berry and many many others.

an act or two would be off the road and available. obviously that had to take precedent for recording session prioritization. get diana or martha or levi or whomever into that studio and crank out as much stuff as you can. then all of those others i just mentioned had to be scheduled around that. I think that's why the A's were used on the Supremes stuff. given the volume of content being recorded, there's just no way to manage that PLUS all of the public appearances and performances.

Roberta75
06-26-2020, 02:08 PM
Mary is a pretty nice person. Not perfect but a peacekeeper and didn’t like conflict so she wasn’t usually difficult.

Hmmmm. Your fearless leader thinks Saint Mary of Wilson walks on water. Reftreshing that youve given a slightly different but fairly safe viewpoint.

luke
06-26-2020, 02:09 PM
Wasn’t it at at rehearsal for this show that Diana yelled at Vandellas and others for having a sing a long and slapped Eddie Kendricks across the face ?

sup_fan
06-26-2020, 02:13 PM
Wasn’t it at at rehearsal for this show that Diana yelled about at Vandellas and others for having a sing a long and slapped Eddie Kendricks across the face ?

supposedly those stories were part of the TCB timeline

And as another poster here said, we weren't there so we don't know. it's very possible diana did smack eddie. i don't think anyone here is completely absolving diana of any blame or diva-ness

but mary offers up a VERY sanitized version of herself through the books. to the point where it can lead the reader to discredit her. sure diana made mistakes but at least acknowledge that you're also fallible.

let's not forget that Mary wanted to install mirrors on her bedroom ceiling of her new house in 1965. she was all of 21 years old and yet already considering such a design choice. interesting... lol

TheMotownManiac
06-26-2020, 04:04 PM
I was really not aware anyone was suggesting anything. I’ve repeatedly mentioned I think both singers do a great job so find it strange you attach this to my post.
As far as I can make out the thread is merely a discussion about an incident that according to a least one original Temptation actually happened. Whether one chooses to believe it or not or considers it a complete irrelevance is most certainly personal choice. For me personally it’s no big a deal. Are you saying Otis made the whole thing up to be nasty?. Perhaps if he had written Diana spent an hour after the show distributing funds to the sick and needy it might be more readily accepted??.
Im a little confused here. :confused:

I have no reason to think it’s not true, but I know that if it was in a lower key, Diana would’ve had trouble with the verse if I’m losing you because it’s already low for her… Not low necessarily I guess but on the lower side of her comfort range.

my problem with this story is because it is mentioned to imply that David Ruffin was making diana ross look bad and so she wanted to change that, and that it is implying a selfish diva behavior that a few children on this board are rolling around like pigs in shit in. The fact is that the key used is one that both sound good in, and as such, I can’t even understand why Otis Williams or anyone would bother to say we change the keys to the both lead singers could sing in it. There’s no story there. There’s no reason to mention a key change for musical groups that deal with musical charts every single day for years and years and years. It’s as common place as yes if he had said “diana dropped a bobby pin in the dressing room. “Only this particular chart is mentioned in Otis’ book or any of the books And it is to throw shade. It’s a desperate attempt to get a little Diana dirt into any book because that’s what sells the books. If dream girl had made diana ross look like a sand, it probably would’ve done half the business it did more like supreme faith.

At the time, clearly, the biggest star on that stage that night was diana ross. Her group has sold twice as many records as the Temptations, five times as many concert tickets and currently have the number one album in the country. More people were tuning in to see her than anyone else if we’re going to start putting people against each other. It would make sense to have things in her key even if it didn’t work out for the other person.

The folks that are saying that David is singing circles around diana ross I don’t agree with. He is the great David Ruffin and I bow down to him, but he is to soul music as diana ross is to pop music and comparing the two is absurd. You’re not comparing apples and apples so why bother? Compare Diana to Petula Or Cher or other pop divas of the day - not Mahalia Jackson. Manny Manny Manny Manny people that day, I did not appreciate the sound of Mahalia Jackson, would have sent ross saying circles around her. It’s all about where your focus is. But folks try to throw shade, use these Donald Trumpian Comparatives to prove a point that Actually cannot be made.

TheMotownManiac
06-26-2020, 04:24 PM
I know that story was written in Mary's first book to illustrate the portrayal of a selfish Diana Ross, but I always thought it made Mary look like more of an idiot. There's no way I'm sleeping on the floor every night at my relative's house while you get the couch every night. I'm not waiting on you to suggest we alternate nights, I'm telling you we're alternating nights. Diana Ross in all likelihood was a selfish young lady, but I can see how tempting it might have been for her to pay someone like Mary no mind if you wait 20 years to say you wanted to sleep on the couch.

HA! I just had my first, true LOL today - thank you for that.

In Mary’s books, she doesn’t mention much about having friends prior to the group. It’s very possible that diana ross was her very first close friend, and I could see where as Diana grew into adulthood and changed and moved away from Mary some white that Mary had might have felt like a jilted lover. She’s certainly writes like one. I have never read an autobiography that has so much Information… Personal information about other people who are not the subject matter. And I imagine that diana ross at any age was quite a handful no matter how you look at it - but that same whatever it is, is what put the group over.

luke
06-26-2020, 04:26 PM
Mary wasn’t typically mean to people.

marv2
06-26-2020, 05:11 PM
Wasn’t it at at rehearsal for this show that Diana yelled at Vandellas and others for having a sing a long and slapped Eddie Kendricks across the face ?

Yeah, Mary said [[she was there) that someone had brought food back for Eddie during a break. Diane seemed to be offended by that for some reason and slapped Eddie across the face.

marv2
06-26-2020, 05:12 PM
Mary wasn’t typically mean to people.

Mary's not mean. She can be plenty tough though when need be.......

lucky2012
06-26-2020, 05:33 PM
The folks that are saying that David is singing circles around diana ross I don’t agree with. He is the great David Ruffin and I bow down to him, but he is to soul music as diana ross is to pop music and comparing the two is absurd. You’re not comparing apples and apples so why bother? Compare Diana to Petula Or Cher or other pop divas of the day - not Mahalia Jackson. Manny Manny Manny Manny people that day, I did not appreciate the sound of Mahalia Jackson, would have sent ross saying circles around her. It’s all about where your focus is. But folks try to throw shade, use these Donald Trumpian Comparatives to prove a point that Actually cannot be made.

Amen, MotownManiac! My feelings exactly. A singer "singing circles" around another is always only an individual's opinion.

sup_fan
06-26-2020, 05:59 PM
HA! I just had my first, true LOL today - thank you for that.

In Mary’s books, she doesn’t mention much about having friends prior to the group. It’s very possible that diana ross was her very first close friend, and I could see where as Diana grew into adulthood and changed and moved away from Mary some white that Mary had might have felt like a jilted lover. She’s certainly writes like one. I have never read an autobiography that has so much Information… Personal information about other people who are not the subject matter. And I imagine that diana ross at any age was quite a handful no matter how you look at it - but that same whatever it is, is what put the group over.

Randy includes a story of Mary and Diana meeting in Vegas backstage where mary asked if Diana will call her regarding being interviewed for her book. as the story goes, mary says "well no one wants to read about me. it's a book about us. the supremes"

that pretty much sums it up. without heavyduty Diana content, there would never have been anything published.

i've heard earlier drafts were different - not sure now if they were heavier on the tea and she toned it down or if it was too light and she was told to make it more juicy

the book came out in 86 i think. so not quite 10 years after she left the Supremes. and although some crazed fans go on and on about all of the "interest" different labels had in her, she had no contract and hadn't had anything significant since motown dropped her. there's considerable speculation that her writing the book was a last-ditch effort to drum up interest in her and sign a mega recording deal. that too didn't happen

sup_fan
06-26-2020, 06:02 PM
Mary wasn’t typically mean to people.

maybe mean isn't the word to describe it. but there was pretty much non-stop conflict between the girls in the 70s. Jean, Lynda, Scherrie, cindy and susaye.

at a certain point you can't only blame the "other" people. The common thread is mary. if every person within the group in the 70s is having problems, don't you think the answer at least partially lies with the one person that was in every single lineup?

marv2
06-26-2020, 06:16 PM
maybe mean isn't the word to describe it. but there was pretty much non-stop conflict between the girls in the 70s. Jean, Lynda, Scherrie, cindy and susaye.

at a certain point you can't only blame the "other" people. The common thread is mary. if every person within the group in the 70s is having problems, don't you think the answer at least partially lies with the one person that was in every single lineup?

Replace the name "Mary Wilson" with "Diana Ross" and I might believe what you are saying. As it stands now, you are completely lying! But that's cool, you do it so much on here that people outside of those that read your posts seriously don't realize it. Mary was not mean to any of those women.

How about you give examples of how Mary Wilson was mean to each one of those women, maybe throw in a link or two while you're at it?

marv2
06-26-2020, 06:21 PM
Randy includes a story of Mary and Diana meeting in Vegas backstage where mary asked if Diana will call her regarding being interviewed for her book. as the story goes, mary says "well no one wants to read about me. it's a book about us. the supremes"

that pretty much sums it up. without heavyduty Diana content, there would never have been anything published.

i've heard earlier drafts were different - not sure now if they were heavier on the tea and she toned it down or if it was too light and she was told to make it more juicy

the book came out in 86 i think. so not quite 10 years after she left the Supremes. and although some crazed fans go on and on about all of the "interest" different labels had in her, she had no contract and hadn't had anything significant since motown dropped her. there's considerable speculation that her writing the book was a last-ditch effort to drum up interest in her and sign a mega recording deal. that too didn't happen

Look, see here you go lying again. Mary Wilson went to see Diana Ross in Vegas with her family and asked Diane if she would agree to be interviewed for her book. Diane responded "Is it a good book or a bad book Mary?". Mary told her it was a book about them, The Supremes. Diane said, I will not have time for that. Mary told her to just call her when they were back in LA. Diane then becomes flippant and goes "Call you? Call you for what?" and then brushes Mary off. I have always said at that point Mary should have just A). Beat Diane's ass right there for being disrespectful or B.) Blast her good with all the dirt in her book, which she did not do after all!

marv2
06-26-2020, 06:23 PM
maybe mean isn't the word to describe it. but there was pretty much non-stop conflict between the girls in the 70s. Jean, Lynda, Scherrie, cindy and susaye.

at a certain point you can't only blame the "other" people. The common thread is mary. if every person within the group in the 70s is having problems, don't you think the answer at least partially lies with the one person that was in every single lineup?

When just about everyone at Motown and in the music industry in the 60s were hating Diana Ross' guts, you said nothing.......

Roberta75
06-26-2020, 07:25 PM
Look, see here you go lying again. Mary Wilson went to see Diana Ross in Vegas with her family and asked Diane if she would agree to be interviewed for her book. Diane responded "Is it a good book or a bad book Mary?". Mary told her it was a book about them, The Supremes. Diane said, I will not have time for that. Mary told her to just call her when they were back in LA. Diane then becomes flippant and goes "Call you? Call you what" and then brushes Mary off. I have always said at that point Mary should have just A). Beat Diane's ass right there for being disrespectful or B.) Blast her good with all the dirt in her book, which she did not do after all!

Were you a lady wrestler in another life or do you aspire to be a female wrestler. You seem obessed with women rolling around fighting and beating each others asses?.

captainjames
06-26-2020, 09:15 PM
LOL................... that seems like so long ago but what I remember it seems like Mary took her daughter with her to see if she could talk with Diana. Mary as hoping Diana would embrace her daughter and that would give her a chance to talk to Diana. Diana saw right through it.

Ollie9
06-27-2020, 04:33 AM
My feelings exactly. A singer "singing circles" around another is always only an individual's opinion.

Couldn't agree more lucky with the point being everyone is entitled to their own opinion.
Will the person who said that David Ruffin was singing circles around Diana Ross please stand up. Your wanted for detention later. :eek:

Ollie9
06-27-2020, 04:53 AM
And Mary did this and Diana said that!! This is why we ended up with a separate DR&S forum in the first place.
Like the rest of us both women have made mistakes in life, but are now older and wiser individuals.

Circa 1824
06-27-2020, 08:09 AM
I watched the show live, and was soooo thrilled by Ross and the entire segment that I could hardly breathe. Ross and Ruffin were both awesome that night.

lucky2012
06-27-2020, 09:07 AM
Couldn't agree more lucky with the point being everyone is entitled to their own opinion.
Will the person who said that David Ruffin was singing circles around Diana Ross please stand up. Your wanted for detention later. :eek:

Yes, but I will spare him/her/them any lashes with my wet noodle. Just wanted them to know my opinion of their opinion. :eek:

Ollie9
06-27-2020, 10:13 AM
Yes, but I will spare him/her/them any lashes with my wet noodle. Just wanted them to know my opinion of their opinion. :eek:

I’m a little afraid to ask on a public forum, but what’s a wet noodle?. Was it a slip of the finger and you meant to type p instead of n. :eek:

milven
06-27-2020, 11:42 AM
I’m a little afraid to ask on a public forum, but what’s a wet noodle?. Was it a slip of the finger and you meant to type p instead of n. :eek:

And I am a little afraid to answer on a public forum, in case you are asking in jest. But it is an old term that younger people may not have heard so here goes the explanation.

It means you deserve to be punished, but not very badly--how much damage can you do by hitting someone with a wet noodle, after all?

It's the equivalent of saying "Naughty, naughty!" to someone. It's all in jest. My mom said it to me when I did or said something silly or a little off color

Ollie9
06-27-2020, 01:20 PM
And I am a little afraid to answer on a public forum, in case you are asking in jest. But it is an old term that younger people may not have heard so here goes the explanation.

It means you deserve to be punished, but not very badly--how much damage can you do by hitting someone with a wet noodle, after all?

It's the equivalent of saying "Naughty, naughty!" to someone. It's all in jest. My mom said it to me when I did or said something silly or a little off color

Many thanks for the explanation milven. So glad it needed up as being something wholesome. I have never heard this expression before. That’s what’s so great about SD, you learn something new all the time lol.

lucky2012
06-27-2020, 01:31 PM
Many thanks for the explanation milven. So glad it needed up as being something wholesome. I have never heard this expression before. That’s what’s so great about SD, you learn something new all the time lol.

Sorry, I didn't mean to be wholesome :p

sup_fan
06-27-2020, 03:30 PM
I watched the show live, and was soooo thrilled by Ross and the entire segment that I could hardly breathe. Ross and Ruffin were both awesome that night.

nice!! i'm assuming you were another fan that waited with baited breath for the Sups next tv appearance.

what was your fav one back in the day? was there one where you just gasped because it was so fabulous or their outfits were so over the top shocking? love hearing these fan memories :)

RanRan79
06-29-2020, 01:58 PM
HA! I just had my first, true LOL today - thank you for that.

In Mary’s books, she doesn’t mention much about having friends prior to the group. It’s very possible that diana ross was her very first close friend, and I could see where as Diana grew into adulthood and changed and moved away from Mary some white that Mary had might have felt like a jilted lover. She’s certainly writes like one. I have never read an autobiography that has so much Information… Personal information about other people who are not the subject matter. And I imagine that diana ross at any age was quite a handful no matter how you look at it - but that same whatever it is, is what put the group over.

Mary does write that she had close friends before meeting Flo or Diana. It's interesting because you basically hit on something that I once opined in a thread a couple years ago. Friendships at that young age are formed by all sorts of things: housing proximity, school, class, job, mutual friends, and in the case of Flo, Diana and Mary, a singing group. But when you're that young, a lot of times the friends you make at 12, 13, 14, eventually you grow apart. Sometimes new friends come in the picture, different interests begin to take over, and the gulf between old friends becomes wide. There's seldom animosity because it's usually a mutual thing.

In the case of the Supremes, were it not for the group, they may have eventually grown apart and moved on, they were forever bonded because of the Supremes. Now they were being forced to be together when they no longer had friendship in common. I think Mary always wanted the relationship to stay the way it was when they were Primettes, but Diana wasn't that girl anymore, and honestly neither was Florence. By the time Flo left the group, things had soured so that there was no longer a friendship between Flo and Diana, and the one between Flo and Mary was hanging on by the thinnest of strings. [[The argument might be made that Flo and Mary held on post Flo's firing because they no longer had to work together.) By the time Diana left the group, there was nothing there for her and Mary. They were two old friends still dealing with each other when naturally they probably would've parted ways at least a few years before. Now that's not to say there was no longer affection there. I think the one thing all three Supremes agree[[d) on in post Supremes interviews is that they still loved one another very much. This meant the occasional visit, phone call, or gesture of care, so in a sense they may have become more like family members. I think both Flo and Diana were realistic about this kind of thing.

Mary had rejection issues stemming from her childhood. It's possible that where Diana "easily" moved on, Mary found it harder to do so. Not that she didn't want to be rid of Diana in the group. I think by the time Diana left, Mary was ready for her to be gone. But she didn't necessarily want her out of her life, and to Mary, over the coming decade, I think she felt like Diana had not just left the Supremes but also their friendship, or whatever friendship they had left. But again, there was a familial feel to their relationship, so Mary might have eventually become content with sporadic visits from and with Diana, as Diana apparently didn't mind sporadic contact herself. But when Diana showed her ass at Motown 25, treating Mary as though she were less than worthy of respect, Mary had enough. And instead of Mary putting her big girl drawz on and saying "fuck her" and never bothering with Diana Ross ever again, Mary instead decided to write a book, and then feigned shock when the one thing Mary really didn't want- completely alienating Diana- happened, and Diana never bothered with Mary again until that moment when the love you have for someone trumps your "fuck 'em" attitude, like when Diana reached out when Mary lost her son.

RanRan79
06-29-2020, 02:02 PM
Mary's not mean. She can be plenty tough though when need be.......

You keep trying to paint this picture of a big, tough Mary Wilson. How come you're the only person who has ever seen this side of Mary? Well, you and Brenda Holloway.

RanRan79
06-29-2020, 02:11 PM
Look, see here you go lying again. Mary Wilson went to see Diana Ross in Vegas with her family and asked Diane if she would agree to be interviewed for her book. Diane responded "Is it a good book or a bad book Mary?". Mary told her it was a book about them, The Supremes. Diane said, I will not have time for that. Mary told her to just call her when they were back in LA. Diane then becomes flippant and goes "Call you? Call you for what?" and then brushes Mary off. I have always said at that point Mary should have just A). Beat Diane's ass right there for being disrespectful or B.) Blast her good with all the dirt in her book, which she did not do after all!

That's from "Call Her Miss Ross". It's interesting that for someone who is supposedly so disinterested in Diana Ross that you can quote a passage from a book about her. Marv either you're a closet Diana lover or...well the alternative is frightening so I prefer to think of you as a closet Diana lover.:p Anyway, CHMR also has some other interesting anecdotes in it about Mary Wilson. If what you quoted actually took place, then those other Mary moments did too, and boy, it sure didn't make her look good.

Nobody except you believes Mary Wilson would beat Diana's butt. In fact, wasn't it Mary that writes about how Diana had to be peeled off of her back in the early days? Mary didn't say after Diana was pulled away that Mary had to be held back. Keep it real, Mary wasn't that chick. Not to say Mary wouldn't fight if she had to, or that she couldn't win a fight, but again...Mary wasn't that chick. Please stop. She also wasn't so low that she would physically assault someone because she didn't like what they had to say. Why would you want Mary to be that type of person at 45 years old? Yikes!

RanRan79
06-29-2020, 02:15 PM
LOL................... that seems like so long ago but what I remember it seems like Mary took her daughter with her to see if she could talk with Diana. Mary as hoping Diana would embrace her daughter and that would give her a chance to talk to Diana. Diana saw right through it.

That was a separate incident. That supposedly took place after Dreamgirl had been out for a couple years. Personally, I think Diana should've sent someone out to pull Mary aside and tell her that Turkessa was free to come back for a visit but Mary was not. So if Mary decided "Well if she won't see me, she can't see my daughter", then that call was Mary's to make. I wouldn't have turned the girl away. But you're right, Diana saw through the ploy and didn't fall for it. Mary had made her bed, so now she had to lie in it. Or rather she had written her book, now she had to read it.

RanRan79
06-29-2020, 02:16 PM
And Mary did this and Diana said that!! This is why we ended up with a separate DR&S forum in the first place.
Like the rest of us both women have made mistakes in life, but are now older and wiser individuals.

Unfortunately, not everyone grows up. As evidenced by this separate forum.:p

TomatoTom123
06-29-2020, 09:18 PM
Added to "Ed Sullivan Show" YouTube channel on June 20 --


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lXrP3wFfBrM

i LOVE IT, EVERYONE AND EVERYTHING ABOUT IT IS GREAT, LOVE IT LOVE IT LOVE IT :D

jobeterob
06-30-2020, 12:06 AM
Excellent, no wonder they were popular

jobeterob
06-30-2020, 07:23 PM
There were a couple of spots where the background singers were more than just dancers which was nice to hear.