Jean Terrell's "illness"

[BobbyC]

Hey guys--in Mary's book Supreme Faith, she alludes to the fact that Jean missed a few performances due to "illness" and said that she felt guilty for what she was thinking about Jean's illness. Mary never comes out and says what she was thinking. I noticed on anther thread on this forum that Jean's "illness" is in quotation marks like she wasn't really sick. What do people think was going on with her?

[sup_fan]

i thought someone on here once said it was high blood pressure

[BobbyC]

Didn't seem like Mary and others believed that

[sup_fan]

i know other sources like Randy's books talk about Jean being ill and the MLC lineup for a few shows. But other than Mary's 1 book, what sources have stated speculation about Jean's reasons for being absent?

[reese]

From what I recall Mary writing in SUPREME FAITH, no one ever told her what Jean's illness was and in Mary's opinion, it seemed to occur when she was unhappy. So that's why she was suspicious.

In one of the Motown books, Cindy mentioned something about Jean having a headache in Vegas one night and it being almost impossible to get her to go on stage. She went on to say that she and Mary weren't used to that, even saying that Diana was the type who could have a major operation and still be on stage that night.

[BobbyC]

Reese--I remember Cindy saying that, although I forgot about it until you reminded me. Anyway--I can't say for sure, but I think Jean was very difficult and if she didn't feel like going onstage, she didn't. I think JT, after a while, had just had it with the whole Supremes thing.

[sup_fan]

yeah i think she was really not happy and i think she realized early on that this might not have been the right gig for her. or that at least she'd never really be able to do what she wanted with the role.

i think the political and superficial aspects of show business were not to her liking. she was more interested in making an artistic statement

[khansperac]

You can be both artistic and professional.

[detmotownguy]

yeah i think she was really not happy and i think she realized early on that this might not have been the right gig for her. or that at least she'd never really be able to do what she wanted with the role.

i think the political and superficial aspects of show business were not to her liking. she was more interested in making an artistic statement
Maybe Berry was right. Seriously, there never has been much said abt his phone call to Mary saying Jean wasn’t right for the group. But she did one helluva job as lead. Didn’t they let already record much of Right On? And that voice!!!!

[BobbyC]

The additional problem is that there was never any master plan in terms of what this new group of Supremes was going to be. Now that I've seen so many old clips, it is clear to me that Motown really didn't have a plan for them--they wanted to milk any residual income that they could out of the group before they fizzled out. But that isn't a plan, it's not a bold new idea on how to stay on top. Just the fact that they were wearing the same old gowns shows that nobody at Motown knew or cared what happened to them. If only they had found younger management--people who were seeing how things were changing in musical tastes and presentations. I remember in the 70's thinking groups like Labelle, P Funk and Rufus all looked "cool"--and those old school gowns looked dated and cheesy. By the time Scherrie came on board, the Supremes seemed to be headed in the right direction--they started wearing less makeup, sexier dresses, and dropped the fake stage banter. Too bad the momentum was long gone.

[blackguy69]

The signs were there about Jean if anyone caught it. Listen to the interview on Merv fron Jan 1972
Reese--I remember Cindy saying that, although I forgot about it until you reminded me. Anyway--I can't say for sure, but I think Jean was very difficult and if she didn't feel like going onstage, she didn't. I think JT, after a while, had just had it with the whole Supremes thing.

[sup_fan]

The additional problem is that there was never any master plan in terms of what this new group of Supremes was going to be. Now that I've seen so many old clips, it is clear to me that Motown really didn't have a plan for them--they wanted to milk any residual income that they could out of the group before they fizzled out. But that isn't a plan, it's not a bold new idea on how to stay on top. Just the fact that they were wearing the same old gowns shows that nobody at Motown knew or cared what happened to them. If only they had found younger management--people who were seeing how things were changing in musical tastes and presentations. I remember in the 70's thinking groups like Labelle, P Funk and Rufus all looked "cool"--and those old school gowns looked dated and cheesy. By the time Scherrie came on board, the Supremes seemed to be headed in the right direction--they started wearing less makeup, sexier dresses, and dropped the fake stage banter. Too bad the momentum was long gone.

that's a great point. Berry had VERY clear plans for Diana and nothing was left to chance or approached randomly. And that was the same approach with DRATS and even the DFM Supremes. look at all of the wonderful content that was recorded or prepared for recording and then scrapped.

Once Diana left the Sups, the Sups absolutely did become just like every other motown group in the fact that they had pretty basic career management. after the initial success of market cross over and getting into the supper clubs, Motown had a very short range vision for nearly all acts. Sure they'd support new ideas that were brought to them - like the Temps pushing to evolve into the psychedelic soul image. And then some of the solo artists like Stevie and Marvin had very clear ideas of where their careers should go and they had to fight for that.

the supremes and other motown acts benefited from the early and strong vision of Berry's which was to be a classy label that would appeal to a broad audience - teens with hot dance songs, MOR albums, supper clubs, etc. But they never really evolved from there. and much of that was frankly based around Berry's idea of having a black female superstar to take to the world.

[PeaceNHarmony]

An attack of chronic homophobia? Yeah. Went there.

[marv2]

i know other sources like Randy's books talk about Jean being ill and the MLC lineup for a few shows. But other than Mary's 1 book, what sources have stated speculation about Jean's reasons for being absent?

In one of Lynda Laurence's "concert" videos she mentions that Jean was ill or thinking about becoming ill is what gave her a chance to sing lead for the Supremes.

[captainjames]

If the boss tells you he washes his hand of the new group, I would take that as you are on your own.....good luck.

[marv2]

yeah i think she was really not happy and i think she realized early on that this might not have been the right gig for her. or that at least she'd never really be able to do what she wanted with the role.

i think the political and superficial aspects of show business were not to her liking. she was more interested in making an artistic statement

It wasn't even that complicated. It had to do with Berry Gordy, money and promotion!

[RanRan79]

Or could it be- and I realize this is a radical concept here- that Jean was simply, uh, ya know, sick. I hate that I have to constantly point this out, but I'm hoping at some point that it sticks: the Supremes were human beings. It's not like they were all human at birth and then once becoming Supremes they turn into these superhuman superheroes where the normality of life, such as grief, heartbreak, disappointment, and yes physical and mental illness, has no effect. Maybe Jean had a stomach bug, or the flu, or a nasty cold, or female issues. Is that really any less likely than Jean being unprofessional or mad about the direction of her career?

[BobbyC]

Ran--I think people understand that, we're grown ups. I was simply curious as to what Mary was alluding to when she said she felt guilty about what she was thinking about Jean's "illness." Other people have said Jean wouldn't go on stage because she got in a fight with Mary--but the public line was always that J was sick.

[jim aka jtigre99]

Berry Gordy was no longer on the road with them. As Mary stated, he expected them all to have the kind of dedication of going on no matter what. Before the Copa, Florence was ill and they made a big deal about that. Jean had a wonderful voice but it has been stated she had no real dedication to the group as Mary, Diana and Cindy did. She very well may have been ill and it could have been triggered when she was unhappy. Motown was just making money off of the name at this point, they didn't really push Jean. I am sure Mary was happy to have a group group again but has stated that Jean grew weary of answering questions about the past Supremes. Motown's vision on how to promote the group was shortsighted and helped whatever momentum they had to slow down. Berry didn't like stoned love and they only released one song from the NWBLS LP. The group was even seeming to hit the top 20 more than DRATS did with some of their hit and miss releases. Still, on television Mary was coming across as dynamic, happy and bubbly while Cindy was coming off as sweet,demure and happy. Jean was confident in singing but was not as dazzling in her stage personae as Ross or even Wilson,Birdsong or Ballard. As the new lead singer , there should have been a plan in place to find what would work with her personality and to present that more strongly onstage. After all, she was taking on the lead of Motown's former #1 group. Another thing, Terrell I have read was salaried and this could also color how she felt with dedication. She was going to be paid the same salary regardless of how dedicated she was and if she felt Motown wasn't behind her than what point was there other than showing off your singing talent? I think they all would have been happier had Motown called NWBLS Stoned Love and stuck with the original cover art. If Berry changed his mind about Jean and washed his hands of the group and did not like their biggest hit, that should tell you something about what promotion they were going to get. I certainly had a lot of hope when Scherrie joined and split leads with Mary, the group seemed so energized and ready to reign supreme in the new disco era. Unfortunately, that did not go as well as it should have. It also should say something that after all of these years that Mary and Scherrie are still out there determined and dedicated. I really loved Jean's solo LP but that also did not have promotion because I have read Terrell did not want to promote it the way A&M asked. Perhaps, she had the amazing talent but as Mary said she stated it's okay for you to do what they ask but not for me when Mary wanted her to try and go along with the company. If Jean had an illness, hopefully she had and still has good health.

[RanRan79]

It would be interesting to know what Gordy saw in Jean in Miami that sold him on the idea of her being the perfect replacement for Diana. Vocally Jean is perfect for the role. Her voice has personality, is versatile, easily recognizable. Visually, as Jim points out, she lacked Diana's dazzling onstage persona. I think it's a bit jarring to go from Diana's liveliness to Jean's more laidback and demure, regal state of being. Jean would've made a perfect edition to Motown as a soloist. With Diana moving into movies, the company could've gotten behind Jean's music. The Supremes needed a lead singer who still gave off a dynamic visual vibe.

I think Tammi Terrell, had she not been ill, would've been perfect for the job. Freda Payne was already having some success over at Invictus, but she too would've been a great replacement. Edna Wright, had Honey Cone not been a thing, would've been perfect. And honestly I think Brenda Holloway, had she [[a) desired to be a part of a group, and [[b) desired to return to Motown, would've made an excellent replacement for Ross. These ladies had personality, youthfulness, vivaciousness that came through visually, like Diana, but which Jean seemed to mostly lack.

I'm not arguing against Jean, as she is one of my all time favorite singers PERIOD. And where during the Flo years I'm enraptured by the totality of the group [[which is why it does matter to me who is singing background, even if it ultimately doesn't disrupt how I feel about any given song), I really couldn't care less who is singing backup when Jean is in the group because that's just how much in love with her voice I am. Yet, the more I think about it, the more I start to conclude that Jean might have been all wrong for this particular job and it begs the question how might the 70s Supremes story have changed if someone else had been given the job?

[jim aka jtigre99]

I agree, Jean has an amazing voice that is distinct. I heard Gordy saw her perform in Miami and decided on her. All of those ideas are good ones but didn't Gordy want Syreeta? I have heard her on music but not visual performances. I think Mary admits gordy saw something in Jean and realized it would not really work as he had thought. I loved Scherrie Payne as she has sparkle, glamour and a big voice-I wonder if it would have been too different from Diana in 1970. Jean always struck me as vocally a cross between Diana Ross and Dionne Warwick. Some folks that are friends have heard me play her and felt she was too nasal and shrill at times. I just wonder if Gordy was so wrapped up in Diana that his carelessness caused him to replace her without putting in as much thought as he used to with the group as he did when Diana was with them. Surely, he should have looked at stage and television presence since that was a big part of their success. Diana,Mary,Florence and Cindy all projected great presence-not saying Jean is not an amazing singer but that part of her personae alone should have not put her in a group, let alone Motown's #1 group.

[Circa 1824]

For all intents and purposes, Diana Ross was the Supremes. It was her voice and face and personality that was identified as the Supremes. The Supremes after Diana Ross were still associated with Ross’s persona and magnetism.

Jean was fine. She did as well as anyone could have done. It was an impossible task to replace Ross. They were given decent songs and they plugged away until memory of Diana Ross as being The Supremes faded. Then, they were just 3 gals on stage acting wildly manic.

[marv2]

For all intents and purposes, Diana Ross was the Supremes. It was her voice and face and personality that was identified as the Supremes. The Supremes after Diana Ross were still associated with Ross’s persona and magnetism.

Jean was fine. She did as well as anyone could have done. It was an impossible task to replace Ross. They were given decent songs and they plugged away until memory of Diana Ross as being The Supremes faded. Then, they were just 3 gals on stage acting wildly manic.

She was not! That's why RTL bombed so bad and stunk to high Heaven!

[Circa 1824]

She was not! That's why RTL bombed so bad and stunk to high Heaven!

She was in 1970!!!!! You can not compare 1970 with 2000. Thirty years had passed.

By 2000, RTL, Ross was lukewarm and the Supremes ice cold. Most didnt care much about either one. Maybe Ross, Wilson, and the RTL promoters forgot it was 30 years since Someday We’ll Be Together.

[captainjames]

She was in 1970!!!!! You can not compare 1970 with 2000. Thirty years had passed.

By 2000, RTL, Ross was lukewarm and the Supremes ice cold. Most didnt care much about either one. Maybe Ross, Wilson, and the RTL promoters forgot it was 30 years since Someday We’ll Be Together.

I would agree with you on this. However, I think something happen that evening at the Frontier hotel between Gordy and Terrell that made him say Jean is out. Just my two cents on the whole thing for him to go that far and want to pull the plug.

[BobbyC]

Captain you might be right. Think about it--that Farewell show was the first time anybody heard of Jean Terrell and it was the first time people saw her. Some people didn't think she had the right girlie image that the rest of the group had. Things were so hectic that night that I doubt that there was any time to have an altercation with Jean but there was plenty of time for Berry to hear what people thought about his Diana replacement. I would wager that was what happened.

[marv2]

Captain you might be right. Think about it--that Farewell show was the first time anybody heard of Jean Terrell and it was the first time people saw her. Some people didn't think she had the right girlie image that the rest of the group had. Things were so hectic that night that I doubt that there was any time to have an altercation with Jean but there was plenty of time for Berry to hear what people thought about his Diana replacement. I would wager that was what happened.

If you wager that, you'd lose! When it comes to men and women and that thing, there is always time........

[BobbyC]

Just a theory. I wasn't there and neither were you, Marvypoo

[TheMotownManiac]

yeah i think she was really not happy and i think she realized early on that this might not have been the right gig for her. or that at least she'd never really be able to do what she wanted with the role.

i think the political and superficial aspects of show business were not to her liking. she was more interested in making an artistic statement

There is occasional tendency I’m by one person or so who likes to demonize the players involved. I don’t hold it against Jean that this gig was just not for her and I got agree with those who feel that way. I’m sure she resented being told By frank wilson to sing it like Diana And the incessant questions about it. It’s possible that Jean didn’t have that much respect for Diana as a singer and this was an insult to her. And remember, Jean was going from a rather laid-back working atmosphere to going full force into the Supremes machine without any warm up. In 64, the girls popularity happened overnight but there work load built and built and built and built until it was the crazy System they had. Jean had to step in to that at full of pace and that might’ve been difficult also. Additionally, by several accounts, Jean and Barry didn’t get along all that well as far as her performance was going. He was working directly with the group until he felt that it wasn’t going to work out, and Mary, right or wrong, demanded Jean and Barry said OK fine I’m done with the group. There’s no villain here. If mary wanted to continue to work with Barry, she could’ve called him back and said OK let’s go ahead and go with Syreeta but she didn’t. It was her choice to not have Berry involved. It’s possible that Jean could’ve been a little more malleable to conform to Barry’s wishes, after all, he’s the one that got her this gig. And I don’t think anyone can blame Barry Gordy for not wanting to spend time with a singer that wasn’t doing what he wanted.

as far as Jean being ill, I think it’s quite possible that she was, but personally I think it was a power-play that she ultimately lost. I don’t think there is any professional excuse, regardless how much they were not getting along, For Jean to of left New York for LA without telling Mary. That was a rotten unprofessional thing to do. And I would fault Linda for not telling Mary sooner except she probably assumed Jean had told her.

I also disagree with those who feel that Motown was content to let the Supremes die. To me, if that were the case, Barry and Shelley would not have chosen such a fine singer to replace diana. I also don’t believe that Barry would have been working with the group in the studio and in the rehearsal hall if he didn’t have a vested interest in it because he had plenty on his plate launching diana ross, the Jackson 5, The Temptations exploding popularity and imploding personnel problems, the dismal sales of Martha and the four tops, and Marvin Gaye’s break down. That’s a lot for the executive of any company to have to deal with. If Jean was not following what he wanted, which is what he was used to, and she wasn’t going to be replaced, he had every reason to say all right fine you do it. Shelley burger was still managing them, so it’s not like they weren’t being cared for.

I also disagree with the notion that Motown had no plan for the group. I believe Motown did have a plan for the group, but I think that plan included better acceptance by the public instead of instantly decreasing album and ticket sales. I think the plan was to develop Jean so that they could do TV specials and bigger gigs, but they couldn’t do a special with that group because there was no one to deal with the public. Perhaps they could’ve done another special with the Temptations in the fall of 1970 to lighten the burden on Jean, but there’s many reasons why that might not have worked out even if Motown wanted to. In my opinion there’s no way to say that there was no plan for the group.

[TheMotownManiac]

Captain you might be right. Think about it--that Farewell show was the first time anybody heard of Jean Terrell and it was the first time people saw her. Some people didn't think she had the right girlie image that the rest of the group had. Things were so hectic that night that I doubt that there was any time to have an altercation with Jean but there was plenty of time for Berry to hear what people thought about his Diana replacement. I would wager that was what happened.

I couldn’t agree more! Barry Gordy had a ton of family, industry people, stars, Motown family and diana ross’ last good nerve to deal with that night. And I believe it is quite possible that when Jean got up on stage between Diana and Mary, she very much might have looked like yesterday’s mashed potatoes standing next to one of the most charismatic singers of the century. Who knows how many people saw the same thing And shared that?

[sup_fan]

I don’t buy the idea that Berry or Motown plotted and schemed for the Sups to fail. I think he heard jean in Miami and was highly impressed like everyone was that would hear her. With their small family band she probably came across as sincere and strong.

It was later as he was working with her, IMO, that he started to have second thoughts. He knew he’d only be spending a small amount of time w the Sups anyway but if they weren’t in alignment w his managerial vision then screw em. That’s why he washed his hands. He wanted to work w acts that followed his orders

Now why the hell he waited until the final farewell to make the decision, who knows. Cindy mentions that when they got back to LA from the farewell there was a big blowup. Maybe some of this was starting to rear it’s head in the weeks leading up. Who knows.

[BobbyC]

Motown had no reason to actively kill the Supremes--that's one of the dopey theories that has floated around since the 70's. I just think that after a good start, Motown just didn't see Jean as being able to carry them to that super star realm again. As one Motowner once said "Motown had to work very hard" to keep the Supremes alive for even a year or two. There was still money to be made and much of the public didn't even know Ross was gone. As one poster on this thread already pointed out--when Ross went solo, she got all new wardrobe, a new updated look, a whole new show, the works. You didn't see her waddling around on stage in Vegassy gowns from five years before. Nope. DR was pushed as a brand new package, whereas the Supremes were stuck in neutral.Again, when Scherrie came along it was obvious to anyone paying attention that the group knew it was past time for a whole new direction, vocally and visually

[RanRan79]

Berry Gordy was the boss. Had he really cared about the Supremes post Diana, when, for whatever reason, he deemed Jean the wrong move, Jean would've been out on her ass and there would've been nothing Mary could do about it. Berry Gordy was a control freak where his female acts were concerned. I can't think of a single moment where any of them ever had a say so in their careers, particularly if it was something Gordy wanted and they didn't. Between 1961 and 1969 Berry Gordy probably consulted Mary Wilson about one Supremes related issue: what to do about Florence. And as we all know, although some fans prefer to become selective amnesiacs at this point, that Mary's answer was that Flo had to go. Now I'd like to see a show of hands of those who believe that had Mary's response been "Flo stays", that Flo's Supremes story would've ended any differently. Anybody? Somebody? Nobody? Yeah, I didn't think so. Gordy would've reminded Mary to be careful lest she find her ass out right next to Florence.

Perhaps the only power play the Supremes had was Diana siding with them. Gordy might have been willing to give in on some things in order to keep the ship righted. Flo being unhappy made for a rocky ship. Diana being unhappy could've sunk the ship. With Diana out, who did Gordy really have to keep happy in the Supremes? Gordy had been telling Mary what to do for almost a decade of her life. Cindy had been in this thing for about two and a half years, but Gordy surely didn't have any loyalty to her. So if he really didn't want Jean, if Jean really was a breaking point for him with the group, he'd have fired her, called Mary that morning to tell her of his decision and then hung up on her ass before she could say another word.

I think Berry always knew that, Jean or no Jean, he was out of the Supremes business when Diana was out of it. And if Mary's story is to be believed, this made for a great response to the question of "Why aren't you in our corner like you were when Diane was in the group?" Easy answer: "You refused to make the change, so now you deal with the group on your own." It makes the entire situation Mary's fault and Gordy's hands, well, they're washed clean.

Gordy was a man of the streets. He knew how to do this shit.

[marv2]

Just a theory. I wasn't there and neither were you, Marvypoo

No I wasn't. I was 9 going on 10 at that time. Years later, someone who was standing right there, an eyewitness told me what really happened. What are you basing your claims on Bobbygirl?

[BobbyC]

I'm not a girl, Marvipoo. I realize that you must be gender fluid but I'm a man.

[marv2]

I'm not a girl, Marvipoo. I realize that you must be gender fluid but I'm a man.

You don't realize shit, but think you are being a smart ass. I had never called you out of your name before and you do not know me or anything about most shit you talk about on here. So off to the ignore field with you.

[jim aka jtigre99]

I don't think Motown actively killed the Supremes, I think Berry was too preoccupied with Diana to split equally the care needed to make Ross the first superstar of the 70's and to continue the success of the Supremes. He found a great voice in Jean Terrell but perhaps not the right fit for the Supremes image. When he changed his mind, he didn't actively put in as much care as he had in the past to give them a solid image. He was focused on Diana Ross, the Supremes were not the only group to lose his attention because of that. If he wanted Syreeta, he should have put her in the group. Refitting gowns while they were going forward with a new concept was all cost conscious. All they wanted to do was make as much money on the Supremes' name while they could. Slipping in someone with a great voice was a plus, but not realizing a new image or promoting Jean Terrell and her image did not bode well for longevity. As hard as it was for Terrell, it had to be harder for Wilson to see the company no longer make them a top priority. The push they gave was just to make money for the name recognition and reputation. Having to fight for the group and then deal with a new member who did not agree with you must have been very hard.

[marv2]

I don't think Motown actively killed the Supremes, I think Berry was too preoccupied with Diana to split equally the care needed to make Ross the first superstar of the 70's and to continue the success of the Supremes. He found a great voice in Jean Terrell but perhaps not the right fit for the Supremes image. When he changed his mind, he didn't actively put in as much care as he had in the past to give them a solid image. He was focused on Diana Ross, the Supremes were not the only group to lose his attention because of that. If he wanted Syreeta, he should have put her in the group. Refitting gowns while they were going forward with a new concept was all cost conscious. All they wanted to do was make as much money on the Supremes' name while they could. Slipping in someone with a great voice was a plus, but not realizing a new image or promoting Jean Terrell and her image did not bode well for longevity. As hard as it was for Terrell, it had to be harder for Wilson to see the company no longer make them a top priority. The push they gave was just to make money for the name recognition and reputation. Having to fight for the group and then deal with a new member who did not agree with you must have been very hard.

It was not as hard on Mary in the beginning because she, Cindy Birdsong and Jean Terrell were united. Later on, when Jean became disenchanted with how Motown was treating them, it became very hard on her.

[Roberta75]

Berry Gordy was the boss. Had he really cared about the Supremes post Diana, when, for whatever reason, he deemed Jean the wrong move, Jean would've been out on her ass and there would've been nothing Mary could do about it. Berry Gordy was a control freak where his female acts were concerned. I can't think of a single moment where any of them ever had a say so in their careers, particularly if it was something Gordy wanted and they didn't. Between 1961 and 1969 Berry Gordy probably consulted Mary Wilson about one Supremes related issue: what to do about Florence. And as we all know, although some fans prefer to become selective amnesiacs at this point, that Mary's answer was that Flo had to go. Now I'd like to see a show of hands of those who believe that had Mary's response been "Flo stays", that Flo's Supremes story would've ended any differently. Anybody? Somebody? Nobody? Yeah, I didn't think so. Gordy would've reminded Mary to be careful lest she find her ass out right next to Florence.

Perhaps the only power play the Supremes had was Diana siding with them. Gordy might have been willing to give in on some things in order to keep the ship righted. Flo being unhappy made for a rocky ship. Diana being unhappy could've sunk the ship. With Diana out, who did Gordy really have to keep happy in the Supremes? Gordy had been telling Mary what to do for almost a decade of her life. Cindy had been in this thing for about two and a half years, but Gordy surely didn't have any loyalty to her. So if he really didn't want Jean, if Jean really was a breaking point for him with the group, he'd have fired her, called Mary that morning to tell her of his decision and then hung up on her ass before she could say another word.

I think Berry always knew that, Jean or no Jean, he was out of the Supremes business when Diana was out of it. And if Mary's story is to be believed, this made for a great response to the question of "Why aren't you in our corner like you were when Diane was in the group?" Easy answer: "You refused to make the change, so now you deal with the group on your own." It makes the entire situation Mary's fault and Gordy's hands, well, they're washed clean.

Gordy was a man of the streets. He knew how to do this shit.

I think a lot of the downfall of the 70s Supremes was Pedro Ferrer. None of the ladies liked him being involved in the group and being women they probably despised the way he beat up Mary Wilson. A true POS who wasnt a real man. Real men dont beat up women.

[Roberta75]

An attack of chronic homophobia? Yeah. Went there.

Why would you join the most famous girl group in the world knowing they had a real huge Gay following if you dissapproved of homosexuality? When I heard that Jean didnt care for Gay people I was soooo done with her.

[captainjames]

Why would you join the most famous girl group in the world knowing they had a real huge Gay following if you dissapproved of homosexuality? When I heard that Jean didnt care for Gay people I was soooo done with her.

I agree with you Roberta. It was like one of those things that make you say HUH ?

[Circa 1824]

Why would you join the most famous girl group in the world knowing they had a real huge Gay following if you dissapproved of homosexuality? When I heard that Jean didnt care for Gay people I was soooo done with her.

why would anyone care so much about another person’s political or religious views??? If I like someone, I like them and accept their diversity. I don’t do a litmus test on everyone else.

[BobbyC]

I think it makes perfect sense, regarding Jean and gay people. I sincerely doubt Jean even knew that the Supremes had a gay following back when she joined. People just didn't talk about gay people back then, and if anyone did mention gay people, it was like a dirty joke that you didn't tell in mixed company. Don't forget that back in 1969, you could get fired from being a teacher, police officer, FBI etc so if you were gay and smart, you hid. At that time people justified their contempt for gays on religious grounds and Jean was very religious.I would imagine Jean was completely blind sided.The first pop/R&B group I ever even heard mention having a gay following was Patti Labelle and the Bluebelles. They were very accepting after years of playing to a large gay following. Later in the 70's Diana Ross came out and said something to the effect of "Yes I have a large gay following and it is my pleasure." I remember choking up when I read that because in those days, that was the first time I heard anybody saying anything positive about gay people.

Now today, most of the fan sites and fan groups of older female entertainers are run by gay men. Many of the people buying tickets to their shows are gay guys. Gay people are very loyal on the whole. We stick by these stars when the general populace have lost interest. I doubt Jean knew any of this when she joined the Supremes but I'll bet she gets it now.

[Roberta75]

why would anyone care so much about another person’s political or religious views??? If I like someone, I like them and accept their diversity. I don’t do a litmus test on everyone else.

You dont do a litmus test. Thats real rich coming from you.

[thanxal]

I think it makes perfect sense, regarding Jean and gay people. I sincerely doubt Jean even knew that the Supremes had a gay following back when she joined. People just didn't talk about gay people back then, and if anyone did mention gay people, it was like a dirty joke that you didn't tell in mixed company. Don't forget that back in 1969, you could get fired from being a teacher, police officer, FBI etc so if you were gay and smart, you hid. At that time people justified their contempt for gays on religious grounds and Jean was very religious.I would imagine Jean was completely blind sided.The first pop/R&B group I ever even heard mention having a gay following was Patti Labelle and the Bluebelles. They were very accepting after years of playing to a large gay following. Later in the 70's Diana Ross came out and said something to the effect of "Yes I have a large gay following and it is my pleasure." I remember choking up when I read that because in those days, that was the first time I heard anybody saying anything positive about gay people.

Now today, most of the fan sites and fan groups of older female entertainers are run by gay men. Many of the people buying tickets to their shows are gay guys. Gay people are very loyal on the whole. We stick by these stars when the general populace have lost interest. I doubt Jean knew any of this when she joined the Supremes but I'll bet she gets it now.
That is a good observation. Things were very different back then. It seems odd from today’s perspective but that’s how they were. We can wish and hope things could have been different but they weren’t. It’s not to say that such behavior was ok, but in historical context it was the circumstances in which people found themselves. Were she still to hold those views today, that would be another story.

[REDHOT]

People ? Jean Terrell had it with Show Business,she wanted out,no matter what,it's fans that wanna believe she was not happy with the way Motown was treating the group,that's why she left, Jean would have left The Supremes if they would have had 5 number 1 singles in a row,she just didn't like Show Business,so she was unhappy,i don't believe Jean was really sick,she'd have a attitude with Mary,just because she didn't want to be there,and with her becoming a Jehovah Witness made it worst, so she left,i don't know how she got her deal at A&M, Jean recorded I Had To Fall In Love,from what i'm told, she never finish the album,and she wouldn't go out and promote the album,so A&M let her go,no one in Show Business is gonna put up with Jean Terrell.I disagree,i think that Jean had the looks the voice,and a great stage presence,what she didn't have was the love for Show Business,if she did,she would have never stop singing.

[RanRan79]

I think a lot of the downfall of the 70s Supremes was Pedro Ferrer. None of the ladies liked him being involved in the group and being women they probably despised the way he beat up Mary Wilson. A true POS who wasnt a real man. Real men dont beat up women.

Pedro didn't do the group any favors, but let's be real, that ship was sinking way before he became involved.

[RanRan79]

People ? Jean Terrell had it with Show Business,she wanted out,no matter what,it's fans that wanna believe she was not happy with the way Motown was treating the group,that's why she left, Jean would have left The Supremes if they would have had 5 number 1 singles in a row,she just didn't like Show Business,so she was unhappy,i don't believe Jean was really sick,she'd have a attitude with Mary,just because she didn't want to be there,and with her becoming a Jehovah Witness made it worst, so she left,i don't know how she got her deal at A&M, Jean recorded I Had To Fall In Love,from what i'm told, she never finish the album,and she wouldn't go out and promote the album,so A&M let her go,no one in Show Business is gonna put up with Jean Terrell.I disagree,i think that Jean had the looks the voice,and a great stage presence,what she didn't have was the love for Show Business,if she did,she would have never stop singing.

Except most of what you say here is factually incorrect. After Jean left the Supremes she did some recording, the details of which escape me, but she recorded "Do You Believe In Love At First Sight" among some other songs. After that she signed with A&M and not only recorded "I Had To Fall In Love", but completed the album of the same name, which was released. And then after that, in the early to mid 80s, she did at least two shows that I suspect can really only be described as showcases, used to elicit interests by record labels. And yet still, when the FLOS were formed, Jean was a founding member. She never "stopped" singing. For somebody whom you claim wanted no part in showbusiness, she sure as hell kept knocking on the door.

In any career there are ups and downs. Sometimes a person goes to work in his/her chosen field, joins a particular company and finds that it's a nightmare working there. I think most of us have had similar experiences. You leave one place and find a home somewhere else. I'm not sure what Jean's real story is in regards to the business. I keep seeing all of these posts about how she felt but rarely does anyone source them. Has Jean gone on the record about her feelings, or is it all conjecture?

I do think it's possible that even with five number ones Jean may have been unhappy if [[a) the money wasn't right, [[b) creatively and artistically she wasn't being heard, [[c) Mary was power trippin'. She wouldn't be the first artist to be annoyed with her record label and the business decisions thereof. Gladys Knight basically gave Motown the finger, and then she left to what is arguably even greater success.

Sometimes it seems like whenever an artist was fed up with Motown some fans jump to the conclusion that said artist was done with the business. Face it, some folks got sick of Motown's bullshit and simply wanted out. If they received better treatment elsewhere, that's where they would rather be. But Jean does strike me as someone who may have been hard to please, so she may have had trouble just about anywhere, especially if someone in control lacked the ability to handle her with care. Today artists go the independent route for these very reasons. Had that been a big thing back then, Jean may have had greater solo success.

[gman]

the entire point of getting a Jean Terrell was NOT to get another Diana Ross...the group didn't need that, and Berry did not need a competitor in his own stable.
the group did not need or want a star within the group setting again...increasing the vocal contributions and visibility of Mary and Cindy was a very noticeable and welcome change.
The scenario of the group having a more successful beginning than Ross chart wise, and the possibility of that continuing must have kept Berry up nights...lets remember in the 70's Diana's singles generally petered out short of the top 10...4 times at #1...but not a top ten hit if it didn't go all the way

[marv2]

the entire point of getting a Jean Terrell was NOT to get another Diana Ross...the group didn't need that, and Berry did not need a competitor in his own stable.
the group did not need or want a star within the group setting again...increasing the vocal contributions and visibility of Mary and Cindy was a very noticeable and welcome change.
The scenario of the group having a more successful beginning than Ross chart wise, and the possibility of that continuing must have kept Berry up nights...lets remember in the 70's Diana's singles generally petered out short of the top 10...4 times at #1...but not a top ten hit if it didn't go all the way

Excellent points gman.

[gman]

I've said before, reading much of what is written about Jean personality wise, she was willing to do what she was willing to do, and nothing more. Seems Jean was unlikely to change her mind once she made a choice regardless of others influence. She worked very hard...especially considering she was coming from a much less visible and demanding entertainment career. She successfully moved the group passed the DRATS era...Assuming that she was a salaried [[and sales royalty receiving) employee, it's understandable that after a years public acceptance she should have had a better deal and % of partnership rites....This, as we all know was not Mary's doing.
When the huge sales on singles started slipping, her bottom line must have taken a big hit...and it was the same workload travel wise, and time away from home....Jean supposedly by nature had a stronger "happy homebody" streak that is hard to satisfy being away most of the time. Maybe when she signed on, she was aware the schedule would be packed for a set period, and then once radio got used to the new sound [[they seemed to be thru River Deep) and the public got used to the new group, the touring would ease up a bit...The groups road money was still off setting recording budgets and feeding the company.
The problem escalated very quickly once Cindy was gone...with Lynda the group of 3 only had 1/3rd die hard dedication to the name, the legacy and the company. The group already experienced one uncooperative and unhappy member with Flo. If Jean and quickly Lynda were that unhappy, best scenario did happen bringing much loved Cindy back and getting Scherrie...MSC was a great group with high potential and appeal...it blew up beating a dead tired, too brassy, too fast paced Vegas act and replacing Cindy a 2nd time. Having her there was important...she added stability and familiarity.

[marv2]

I've said before, reading much of what is written about Jean personality wise, she was willing to do what she was willing to do, and nothing more. Seems Jean was unlikely to change her mind once she made a choice regardless of others influence. She worked very hard...especially considering she was coming from a much less visible and demanding entertainment career. She successfully moved the group passed the DRATS era...Assuming that she was a salaried [[and sales royalty receiving) employee, it's understandable that after a years public acceptance she should have had a better deal and % of partnership rites....This, as we all know was not Mary's doing.
When the huge sales on singles started slipping, her bottom line must have taken a big hit...and it was the same workload travel wise, and time away from home....Jean supposedly by nature had a stronger "happy homebody" streak that is hard to satisfy being away most of the time. Maybe when she signed on, she was aware the schedule would be packed for a set period, and then once radio got used to the new sound [[they seemed to be thru River Deep) and the public got used to the new group, the touring would ease up a bit...The groups road money was still off setting recording budgets and feeding the company.
The problem escalated very quickly once Cindy was gone...with Lynda the group of 3 only had 1/3rd die hard dedication to the name, the legacy and the company. The group already experienced one uncooperative and unhappy member with Flo. If Jean and quickly Lynda were that unhappy, best scenario did happen bringing much loved Cindy back and getting Scherrie...MSC was a great group with high potential and appeal...it blew up beating a dead tired, too brassy, too fast paced Vegas act and replacing Cindy a 2nd time. Having her there was important...she added stability and familiarity.

I think you perfectly characterized the situation with Jean when you said "she was willing to do what she was willing to do, and nothing more....." I remember there was a time where Jean wouldn't even do the choreography on stage to the songs, other times she just stood and sang a song however she felt on a certain day.

[detmotownguy]

I think you perfectly characterized the situation with Jean when you said "she was willing to do what she was willing to do, and nothing more....." I remember there was a time where Jean wouldn't even do the choreography on stage to the songs, other times she just stood and sang a song however she felt on a certain day.

Agree, but she had the voice! The New Sups jumped over the hurdle and made a name for themselves.

[gman]

I keep hoping Jean will resurface...even though I am a huge Scherrie fan, when Jean left the FLO's it was over for me. I think the most recent performance I've seen is her guest spot on Preston Glass' WELCOME HOME...I have also never heard a satisfyingly candid interview with Jean.

[BobbyC]

I know people are going to hate me for this--but I never liked Jean's voice that much. She sounds good on some songs, but on others she screeches. When she's in a lower register she is fine. I know Berry got it in his head that leads singers had to sing soprano, but I don't think that is true at all. Gladys Knight, Anita Baker, Darlene Love, etc are all altos and even Diana Ross finally clicked when she was recorded in her lower register on Where Did Our Love Go.

[marv2]

Agree, but she had the voice! The New Sups jumped over the hurdle and made a name for themselves.

Oh, she most definitely had the voice! Jean sang so well, she could make a grown man cry. No one could ever question her vocal ability. She was one of the best to have recorded for Motown.

[marv2]

I keep hoping Jean will resurface...even though I am a huge Scherrie fan, when Jean left the FLO's it was over for me. I think the most recent performance I've seen is her guest spot on Preston Glass' WELCOME HOME...I have also never heard a satisfyingly candid interview with Jean.
Same here! I saw Jean lead the FLOs in concert in Detroit. Jean had not lost a thing vocally at that time. I was with Esther Gordy Edwards. Every now and then I look over at Mrs. Edwards while Jean was singing and she would be beaming like a proud mother!

Jean has never done a good, in depth interview. It is long overdue.

[BobbyC]

I prefer Scherrie. She never sounded screechy.

[luke]

I think Jean, Gladys and Thelma were arguably the best female vocalists at Motown followed by Brenda.

[BobbyC]

Luke when you say that are you saying you think they were the most innately talented, the most technically skilled, or are you saying you just like their voices the best?This is a sincere question. I love Gladys' voice the best of the women you listed, I just like her sound, but I'd probably say Jean Terrell was more technically skilled.

[RanRan79]

the entire point of getting a Jean Terrell was NOT to get another Diana Ross...the group didn't need that, and Berry did not need a competitor in his own stable.
the group did not need or want a star within the group setting again...increasing the vocal contributions and visibility of Mary and Cindy was a very noticeable and welcome change.
The scenario of the group having a more successful beginning than Ross chart wise, and the possibility of that continuing must have kept Berry up nights...lets remember in the 70's Diana's singles generally petered out short of the top 10...4 times at #1...but not a top ten hit if it didn't go all the way

There was only one Diana Ross. Motown couldn't duplicate that one if they put out an open call around the world. However, the Supremes, to the world, had a certain something that Ross brought to the group that made the group not only audibly pleasing but visually as well. Individually, Florence and Mary brought their own brand of uniqueness to the group which complimented Diana's energy, which is why while Flo was a part of the group, the group had a group essence, even when the focus was sometimes shifted to Diana. By the time DRATS really got going it was primarily a Diana Ross showcase and, IMO, any two women could've supported her from Mary and Cindy's positions, and it's quite possible no one would've minded a whole lot. [[That last statement is a bit extreme but I'm not in the mood to simplify it.) The Supremes as a name had made their mark. To replace Diana Ross with someone who was more than less her opposite was sort of dumb. Now that little bit extra that made the Supremes pop is gone.

Raising Mary and Cindy's visibility was a good move, but there was nothing overly exciting or entertaining about it, from my perspective. You give them Jean and the group lacks a lot of the overall entertainment factor that was present when Diana was still a member, although it's worth pointing out that vocally Jean ushered them into the 70s and the sound was often on point. I do think any replacement for Ross was going to need to be group focused. Gordy wasn't going to get behind any grooming for potential Diana Ross rivals.

[RanRan79]

I keep hoping Jean will resurface...even though I am a huge Scherrie fan, when Jean left the FLO's it was over for me. I think the most recent performance I've seen is her guest spot on Preston Glass' WELCOME HOME...I have also never heard a satisfyingly candid interview with Jean.

Agree 100 percent.

[RanRan79]

I think Jean, Gladys and Thelma were arguably the best female vocalists at Motown followed by Brenda.

What I do love about Motown [[well there are many things I love) is that they signed such varied female vocalists. I never argue "best" as it's subjective and no one ever seems to really be able to define what makes one singer better than another, at least not to my personal satisfaction.:p To me voices fall into two categories: good or bad. No in betweens for me. Diana, Jean, Florence, Martha, Gladys K, Gladys H, Kim, Brenda, Thelma, Hattie, LaBrenda, Wanda, Ann, Yvonne...all so different, yet oh so good at the same time. And that's barely scraping the barrel. I could mention tons more but aint got that kind of time.

[Circa 1824]

I was with Esther Gordy Edwards.....

Translated means Esther Gordy Edwards was somewhere in the same audience.

[sup_fan]

There was only one Diana Ross. Motown couldn't duplicate that one if they put out an open call around the world. However, the Supremes, to the world, had a certain something that Ross brought to the group that made the group not only audibly pleasing but visually as well. Individually, Florence and Mary brought their own brand of uniqueness to the group which complimented Diana's energy, which is why while Flo was a part of the group, the group had a group essence, even when the focus was sometimes shifted to Diana. By the time DRATS really got going it was primarily a Diana Ross showcase and, IMO, any two women could've supported her from Mary and Cindy's positions, and it's quite possible no one would've minded a whole lot. [[That last statement is a bit extreme but I'm not in the mood to simplify it.) The Supremes as a name had made their mark. To replace Diana Ross with someone who was more than less her opposite was sort of dumb. Now that little bit extra that made the Supremes pop is gone.

Raising Mary and Cindy's visibility was a good move, but there was nothing overly exciting or entertaining about it, from my perspective. You give them Jean and the group lacks a lot of the overall entertainment factor that was present when Diana was still a member, although it's worth pointing out that vocally Jean ushered them into the 70s and the sound was often on point. I do think any replacement for Ross was going to need to be group focused. Gordy wasn't going to get behind any grooming for potential Diana Ross rivals.

great points Ran

it's almost like Diana Ross is a drug lolol [[and i mean that in a good way lol). during the DMF era, you did have 3 engaging personalities and within the structure of the group and performances, each still had some opportunity to shine. Obviously Diana shown the brightest and emerged as the star. And her presence and contribution to this thing called The Supremes was so large, dazzling, etc that it was essentially a 'drug.' as the years continued and the group became DRATS, it's like we were being fed even more and more of this drug. until we were addicts and any alternate approach or concept of "The Supremes" would be like going through withdrawal.

all of the women in the group were talented. some were extremely talented vocalists and decently talented entertainers. some were wonderful entertainers and decent vocalists. some were both.

But no other member of The Supremes, no other singer at motown [[male or female) and frankly very, very few other singers in general, have this absolutely magnetic and hypnotic singer/entertainer presence as Diana Ross. it's why she's one of the most successful performers in recorded history.

and anyone that was going to replace had a Mount Everest to climb

[Roberta75]

Translated means Esther Gordy Edwards was somewhere in the same audience.

LMAO or was there the night before.

[Roberta75]

great points Ran

it's almost like Diana Ross is a drug lolol [[and i mean that in a good way lol). during the DMF era, you did have 3 engaging personalities and within the structure of the group and performances, each still had some opportunity to shine. Obviously Diana shown the brightest and emerged as the star. And her presence and contribution to this thing called The Supremes was so large, dazzling, etc that it was essentially a 'drug.' as the years continued and the group became DRATS, it's like we were being fed even more and more of this drug. until we were addicts and any alternate approach or concept of "The Supremes" would be like going through withdrawal.

all of the women in the group were talented. some were extremely talented vocalists and decently talented entertainers. some were wonderful entertainers and decent vocalists. some were both.

But no other member of The Supremes, no other singer at motown [[male or female) and frankly very, very few other singers in general, have this absolutely magnetic and hypnotic singer/entertainer presence as Diana Ross. it's why she's one of the most successful performers in recorded history.

and anyone that was going to replace had a Mount Everest to climb

Diana Ross has the charisma that make legends and superstars imo.

[marv2]

I think Jean, Gladys and Thelma were arguably the best female vocalists at Motown followed by Brenda.

I don't know how anyone could argue with that. Martha in her prime could also give them a run for their money.

[sup_fan]

Diana Ross has the charisma that make legends and superstars imo.

agreed. it's not that others weren't talented. of course they were. but diana was crazy talented. an anomaly

[luke]

Good addition Marv. I agree!

[gman]

If pulling someone already associated with the label was thought of, I am surprised Carolyn Crawford wasn't considered in '69....or even Blinky. I only became aware of CC in the early 90's through a 5 CD Motorcity Ian Levine comp, and Blinky fairly recently. Sound wise, they would have been a better fit than Tammi or Syreeta.

[marv2]

If pulling someone already associated with the label was thought of, I am surprised Carolyn Crawford wasn't considered in '69....or even Blinky. I only became aware of CC in the early 90's through a 5 CD Motorcity Ian Levine comp, and Blinky fairly recently. Sound wise, they would have been a better fit than Tammi or Syreeta.

Carolyn Crawford would have definitely made a good replacement. Good call! Ultimately though, Jean Terrell was the ultimate and perfect candidate in my opinion. Thinking about it, She must have scared the shit out of a certain other singer. Why? Well because Berry Gordy just happen to go out for drinks one night at the Fountainbleu [[sp?) in Miami and without even trying real hard found a superb replacement for Diana Ross in the Supremes [[the biggest female act in the world at that time!). Some concluded that Jean Terrell was even a much better singer. This could not have done Miss Ross' self esteem much good..........LOL!

[sup_fan]

If pulling someone already associated with the label was thought of, I am surprised Carolyn Crawford wasn't considered in '69....or even Blinky. I only became aware of CC in the early 90's through a 5 CD Motorcity Ian Levine comp, and Blinky fairly recently. Sound wise, they would have been a better fit than Tammi or Syreeta.

all interesting candidates

Mary mentions that she was a little surprised that Berry selected Jean so quickly. It's of no surprise that it appears neither M or C were heavily involved in the search. sure they got to meet Jean and see how it worked. and i guess if they were wildly opposed to jean at the start and said so, berry and motown would have kept looking

but mary makes no real mention of the search process or being at all involved in it. so maybe there were internal, corporate discussions about each of these women. sure would be interesting to have some of those memos and meeting notes revealed!!

[RanRan79]

great points Ran

it's almost like Diana Ross is a drug lolol [[and i mean that in a good way lol). during the DMF era, you did have 3 engaging personalities and within the structure of the group and performances, each still had some opportunity to shine. Obviously Diana shown the brightest and emerged as the star. And her presence and contribution to this thing called The Supremes was so large, dazzling, etc that it was essentially a 'drug.' as the years continued and the group became DRATS, it's like we were being fed even more and more of this drug. until we were addicts and any alternate approach or concept of "The Supremes" would be like going through withdrawal.

all of the women in the group were talented. some were extremely talented vocalists and decently talented entertainers. some were wonderful entertainers and decent vocalists. some were both.

But no other member of The Supremes, no other singer at motown [[male or female) and frankly very, very few other singers in general, have this absolutely magnetic and hypnotic singer/entertainer presence as Diana Ross. it's why she's one of the most successful performers in recorded history.

and anyone that was going to replace had a Mount Everest to climb

Flo and Mary were lucky in a sense. Prior to them becoming a global phenomenon, they had approximately five years with Diana, cultivating their image, their sound, their chemistry together. Mary's first book puts Diana's official designation [[ie Gordy's verbal mandate) of lead singer as approximately late 63-early 64. But there's no question that Diana was the unofficial lead singer of the group from 1961-1964, yet there's also no question that they were as much a group as any other group of the day.

So when the girls became the legendary Supremes, there was room for each girl's identity. Sure, one girl got most of the leads and by extension a good amount of attention. It also didn't hurt that she was a little bit "extra" in nearly every way. But they were separate identities that equaled this incredible entertainment entity and as such, Flo and Mary enjoyed their own individual fame.

DRATS was something else entirely. That really was a solo artist with prominent background performers. It's interesting to note just how many TV performances DRATS did where Mary and Cindy are right up under Ross most of the time, like the Fats Waller medley. At first glance one wants to say "Hey, they're still a group here", but if you really pay attention this is all Diana Ross with vocal and dance accompaniment, not the Supremes, a singing group. [[It is, for the record, probably my favorite DRATS performance. Perfect in every way.) My point being, there was no room for Mary and Cindy's individualism the way there was when Flo was in the group. This was a test run. Diana Ross left the Supremes on the same night Florence did.

What set Diana Ross apart from the other Supremes and, even most of the other Motown acts is that she was a total entertainer. She moved on the stage, gracefully. Her smile really could light up a room. She had this ability to pull the audience into her every move, every word, every look. She was a fashionista. She was gorgeous. And she could flat out sing. Back her up with a full orchestra and she'll kill it. Throw her in front of a Funk Brother's groove and she'll knock it out of the park. Throw her a mic and no music and she'll still captivate. She possessed a magic that sometimes may have been difficult to even define. But you knew she had it. [[I think only Michael Jackson was the other Motown star to have that thing. I also think that if David Ruffin had gotten out of his own way, and then had the kind of attention that Diana got from the big guy, the same might be said of him also.)

Diana had the ingredients from day one, it just took someone to help her hone it. Would her full talent have been realized at Stax or Atlantic or Columbia? One might argue no. On the flipside it's always interesting to ponder what might have become of Florence or even Mary had they gone to another label where someone was more interested in their particular skills. But Diana Ross was definitely a diamond in the rough that, to Gordy's credit, he saw the value in and we all reaped the rewards.

[RanRan79]

If pulling someone already associated with the label was thought of, I am surprised Carolyn Crawford wasn't considered in '69....or even Blinky. I only became aware of CC in the early 90's through a 5 CD Motorcity Ian Levine comp, and Blinky fairly recently. Sound wise, they would have been a better fit than Tammi or Syreeta.

I've never seen Carolyn perform so I don't know how good a fit she would have been. Blinky's sound would've been all wrong. That change at lead would've been too jarring for the general public.

[RanRan79]

Carolyn Crawford would have definitely made a good replacement. Good call! Ultimately though, Jean Terrell was the ultimate and perfect candidate in my opinion. Thinking about it, She must have scared the shit out of a certain other singer. Why? Well because Berry Gordy just happen to go out for drinks one night at the Fountainbleu [[sp?) in Miami and without even trying real hard found a superb replacement for Diana Ross in the Supremes [[the biggest female act in the world at that time!). Some concluded that Jean Terrell was even a much better singer. This could not have done Miss Ross' self esteem much good..........LOL!

Yup, Diana was shaking in her boots about a singer who was taking her place in a group that Diana probably secretly wished she could've ditched two years before. I find it hard to believe that Diana was thinking about much of anything that didn't concern her own career. While I think it's possible, maybe even probable, that she raised an eyebrow when her first single didn't do as well as the Jean led Supremes' first single did, I also think it's possible, maybe even probable, that she lowered that eyebrow when none of the Jean led Supremes' subsequent singles- and certainly none of their albums- came close to the enormity that was "Aint No Mountain High Enough" or her first solo album. Although Diana is probably still wondering where Jean's movie career went.:p

In all seriousness, I do think if there was any real concern about who would win the "rivalry", it was more on Gordy's mind than Ross'. And again, at some point any idiot could see who was going to win that race. And as we sit here 50 years later, we can safely answer who the winner ended up.

[RanRan79]

all interesting candidates

Mary mentions that she was a little surprised that Berry selected Jean so quickly. It's of no surprise that it appears neither M or C were heavily involved in the search. sure they got to meet Jean and see how it worked. and i guess if they were wildly opposed to jean at the start and said so, berry and motown would have kept looking

but mary makes no real mention of the search process or being at all involved in it. so maybe there were internal, corporate discussions about each of these women. sure would be interesting to have some of those memos and meeting notes revealed!!

Yeah, I would love to know what exactly went into the search. It's so interesting to me that in this forum we always ponder these "important" Supremes related questions but in all the books that ever end up being published, most of this kind of inside the music or inside the business information never makes it onto the page.

[reese]

all interesting candidates

Mary mentions that she was a little surprised that Berry selected Jean so quickly. It's of no surprise that it appears neither M or C were heavily involved in the search. sure they got to meet Jean and see how it worked. and i guess if they were wildly opposed to jean at the start and said so, berry and motown would have kept looking

but mary makes no real mention of the search process or being at all involved in it. so maybe there were internal, corporate discussions about each of these women. sure would be interesting to have some of those memos and meeting notes revealed!!

I agree that it would be interesting. Scherrie Payne has mentioned that her name came up as a potential replacement for Diana but then someone else said that she was more interested in her schooling. But she doesn't mention who these people were or how they even considered her, albeit briefly.

[marv2]

Yup, Diana was shaking in her boots about a singer who was taking her place in a group that Diana probably secretly wished she could've ditched two years before. I find it hard to believe that Diana was thinking about much of anything that didn't concern her own career. While I think it's possible, maybe even probable, that she raised an eyebrow when her first single didn't do as well as the Jean led Supremes' first single did, I also think it's possible, maybe even probable, that she lowered that eyebrow when none of the Jean led Supremes' subsequent singles- and certainly none of their albums- came close to the enormity that was "Aint No Mountain High Enough" or her first solo album. Although Diana is probably still wondering where Jean's movie career went.:p

In all seriousness, I do think if there was any real concern about who would win the "rivalry", it was more on Gordy's mind than Ross'. And again, at some point any idiot could see who was going to win that race. And as we sit here 50 years later, we can safely answer who the winner ended up.

Look, Diane has always been insecure [[or at least that is the excuse she used for most of her bad behavior towards others in those days.). Berry Gordy is a very smart man. He knew if he could prove that there were countless talented singers out there that just needed a break, he could use that fact as leverage to keep Diane in her place whenever she got too big-headed.[[She told a nationwide audience on the Tonight Show that she couldn't be replace.....HA!) She went further to "secure" her position by getting pregnant the next year and the rest is history!

[marv2]

I agree that it would be interesting. Scherrie Payne has mentioned that her name came up as a potential replacement for Diana but then someone else said that she was more interested in her schooling. But she doesn't mention who these people were or how they even considered her, albeit briefly.

Scherrie's name came up because Mrs. Farley, her mother mentioned her as a possible candidate to the Gordys at the time.

[RanRan79]

Look, Diane has always been insecure [[or at least that is the excuse she used for most of her bad behavior towards others in those days.). Berry Gordy is a very smart man. He knew if he could prove that there were countless talented singers out there that just needed a break, he could use that fact as leverage to keep Diane in her place whenever she got too big-headed.[[She told a nationwide audience on the Tonight Show that she couldn't be replace.....HA!) She went further to "secure" her position by getting pregnant the next year and the rest is history!

I'm sure she was insecure, like most of the girls her age. Shit, who could've been more insecure than Mary Wilson? That doesn't mean at every move, every thought is driven by insecurity. By the time Jean Terrell came into the group Diana was already a firm legend, the lead singer on 12 number one hits and some additional top 10 hits. This wasn't the Diane Ross who's group hadn't gotten a hit yet. I stand firm in my position: Diana Ross probably didn't give much of a second thought to Jean Terrell.

Diana's position in Gordy's life was firmly in place by the time of Rhonda's conception. Gordy's refusal to marry her was because he saw her as a meal ticket above all else. He wasn't pushing her to the side for any reason. He had put in over a decade of hard work in turning that woman into a superstar. Diana wasn't going anywhere. If she secured anything with getting pregnant, then Gordy also secured his position by getting her pregnant. Or has it been so long that you've forgotten it takes two people to create a baby?

[sup_fan]

once the girls were apart, there have been quite a few stories of some goodwill among them. Randy talks about how in 71, Diana and her mother came to the supremes' show and visited them backstage. I think she honestly wanted them to succeed and wished them no ill will. But the reality was she was crazy busy with her own life.

Diana left the group when she wasn't quite 26.

I want every person on this board to think back to their own life. where were you at that age? what successes and failures had you experienced? where you anywhere as mature or thoughtful as you are today [[assuming you're now years beyond the age of 26 lol). These were young and immature girls that were thrown into an adult world of business and profits. it was NOT about sisterly bonds and sentimentality. it was about money and earning more of it. that's a ton of pressure for a young person to carry and any one of you would have fucked it up just as much as Mary and Diana did. myself included!!

[RanRan79]

once the girls were apart, there have been quite a few stories of some goodwill among them. Randy talks about how in 71, Diana and her mother came to the supremes' show and visited them backstage. I think she honestly wanted them to succeed and wished them no ill will. But the reality was she was crazy busy with her own life.

Diana left the group when she wasn't quite 26.

I want every person on this board to think back to their own life. where were you at that age? what successes and failures had you experienced? where you anywhere as mature or thoughtful as you are today [[assuming you're now years beyond the age of 26 lol). These were young and immature girls that were thrown into an adult world of business and profits. it was NOT about sisterly bonds and sentimentality. it was about money and earning more of it. that's a ton of pressure for a young person to carry and any one of you would have fucked it up just as much as Mary and Diana did. myself included!!

Couldn't agree with this post more!! Bravo!!

Sup we've been on a roll here lately with the agreeing. It doesn't feel right. What's happening?:p

[sup_fan]

Couldn't agree with this post more!! Bravo!!

Sup we've been on a roll here lately with the agreeing. It doesn't feel right. What's happening?:p

it's cuz you're not making all sorts of you typical inaccurate posts or insane theories LOLOLOLOLOL :D

[Roberta75]

once the girls were apart, there have been quite a few stories of some goodwill among them. Randy talks about how in 71, Diana and her mother came to the supremes' show and visited them backstage. I think she honestly wanted them to succeed and wished them no ill will. But the reality was she was crazy busy with her own life.

Diana left the group when she wasn't quite 26.

I want every person on this board to think back to their own life. where were you at that age? what successes and failures had you experienced? where you anywhere as mature or thoughtful as you are today [[assuming you're now years beyond the age of 26 lol). These were young and immature girls that were thrown into an adult world of business and profits. it was NOT about sisterly bonds and sentimentality. it was about money and earning more of it. that's a ton of pressure for a young person to carry and any one of you would have fucked it up just as much as Mary and Diana did. myself included!!

Preach friend Preach.

[gman]

None of these ladies were in charge of their own career....Even DR. Signing with Motown meant you showed up and sang, and took direction. Berry made the decisions and delegated to managers to see that it was carried out. Don't want to comply?... FLO was a perfect example...popular group member or not....there was low tolerance for resistance in the Supremes. Even after Jean joined. The company was still watching closely....until Mary and Pedro too over management.
Martha and the Tempts were able to [[and did) fire and vote out independently during their groups peak years.

[sup_fan]

None of these ladies were in charge of their own career....Even DR. Signing with Motown meant you showed up and sang, and took direction. Berry made the decisions and delegated to managers to see that it was carried out. Don't want to comply?... FLO was a perfect example...popular group member or not....there was low tolerance for resistance in the Supremes. Even after Jean joined. The company was still watching closely....until Mary and Pedro too over management.
Martha and the Tempts were able to [[and did) fire and vote out independently during their groups peak years.

yep - exactly right

I think the temps were able to ditch Ruffin because 1) they were men and 2) they had Eddie kendricks too. Plus gordy didn't really have interest in develop Ruffin into a male superstar so who cares. I know the "male" part is a bit blunt but you know sexism was rampant in motown

as for MRATV - i think by the time she started to ditch Vandellas, Martha's drug use was going pretty strong. and Berry's interest in the group was not very strong. Since the vandellas were just backing singers, he probably didn't care that much

I've wondered about the Vandellas situation. with Martha's drug and mental issues, were Rosalind and Betty really the root causes of the problems?

[RanRan79]

it's cuz you're not making all sorts of you typical inaccurate posts or insane theories LOLOLOLOLOL :D

Look, that really is Florence singing lead on "Let Me Go the Right Way" and Diana was given credit for it because it was their best performing single until "Lovelight" and Motown didn't want to say it was Flo. I have family in Detroit and they've told me all about it.:p

[RanRan79]

None of these ladies were in charge of their own career....Even DR. Signing with Motown meant you showed up and sang, and took direction. Berry made the decisions and delegated to managers to see that it was carried out. Don't want to comply?... FLO was a perfect example...popular group member or not....there was low tolerance for resistance in the Supremes. Even after Jean joined. The company was still watching closely....until Mary and Pedro too over management.
Martha and the Tempts were able to [[and did) fire and vote out independently during their groups peak years.

Martha didn't fire anybody during her peak success or otherwise. Both Betty and Roz were signed to Motown. Martha may have gone to Berry or whomever and said she was sick of either of them, but she didn't have the power to let anybody go. Once she hired Lois and then Sandy, Motown was basically past the point of prioritizing Martha anyway, so at that point they probably couldn't have cared less.

[RanRan79]

yep - exactly right

I think the temps were able to ditch Ruffin because 1) they were men and 2) they had Eddie kendricks too. Plus gordy didn't really have interest in develop Ruffin into a male superstar so who cares. I know the "male" part is a bit blunt but you know sexism was rampant in motown

as for MRATV - i think by the time she started to ditch Vandellas, Martha's drug use was going pretty strong. and Berry's interest in the group was not very strong. Since the vandellas were just backing singers, he probably didn't care that much

I've wondered about the Vandellas situation. with Martha's drug and mental issues, were Rosalind and Betty really the root causes of the problems?

I don't know how strong Martha's drug use was at that point. It's been eons since I've read her book but I was under the impression that her drug use became a problem at the very end of the 60s and both Betty and Roz were long gone.

Motown let it's male acts pretty much handle their own business. There were times when Gordy stepped in, especially with Marvin, and of course he famously dragged his heels on allowing Marvin and Stevie to have artistic control. But while Gman speaks truth to a point, those rigid rules seem to only have applied to his female acts and not so much his male acts.

As to why David was allowed to be fired from the group, I think it was three things:

1) While David was a crucial element to the group's success, he wasn't the only focal point. Eddie was right there with him and as much an identifiable component of the sound. I imagine things may have been different if David was the Diana of the group.

2) Things were so bad that someone was bound to get his ass whooped. Had David been forced upon the others, there may have been a showdown that might have even become public. Tension was high.

3) Most importantly, I think Gordy and company saw the possibilities of David Ruffin superstar. Gordy was preoccupied with Diana, so nobody at the company was going to get his hands on attention. [[Only MJ would succeed in that, at least for a time, and as I said previously, MJ was the only other artist at Motown that had superstar written all over him.) But I think the fact that David was signed to the label as a solo artist for many years suggests that someone was waiting for something to click. It never happened, but David was a superstar waiting to happen. Had he been able to get himself together, who knows how his story would've eventually played out. But removing him from the Tempts still meant that Motown made money: the Tempts continue their success, David has solo success. It's not like when Flo was offered a solo deal at Motown. She would've recorded some stuff but it probably wouldn't have been released until a Motown Unreleased compilation.

[BobbyC]

I don't think so, RanRan. Motown knew that David's irresponsible behavior was due to drug use and that put him out of the running for any kind of push by Motown as a solo star. It's not like other Motown singers weren't doing drugs as well but they weren't in your face with it as David was. Berry Gordy didn't care that David was fired--Dennis came in effortlessly and the Tempts never missed a beat. Ruffin's drug problems were legendary and he earned his reputation.

[luke]

Berry Gordy was very interested in the success of Marvin and Stevie.

[BobbyC]

Yeah Berry wanted the money people like Marvin and Stevie were generating, but they were actually ushering in a new way of doing things that Berry resisted. The 70's were the era of the singer/songwriter and that spelled the end of Motown's assembly line approach to making records. It was inevitable. In the 70's kids like me wanted "legit" songs that were written by the artists I followed. We saw rock artists and visionaries and didn't want what we saw as manufactured pop stars

[marv2]

Berry Gordy was very interested in the success of Marvin and Stevie.

....and The Jackson 5!

[marv2]

None of these ladies were in charge of their own career....Even DR. Signing with Motown meant you showed up and sang, and took direction. Berry made the decisions and delegated to managers to see that it was carried out. Don't want to comply?... FLO was a perfect example...popular group member or not....there was low tolerance for resistance in the Supremes. Even after Jean joined. The company was still watching closely....until Mary and Pedro too over management.
Martha and the Tempts were able to [[and did) fire and vote out independently during their groups peak years.

Correct! That was the main reason why Gladys Knight did not want to sign with Motown in the first place. Too many of these guys on this forum give the artists too much power that they never held while with Motown.

[gman]

It's really a shame that the Motorcity project wasn't met with more success...Having the USA launch in Detroit was a very smart move...but it just didn't get enough attention elsewhere save for the UK soul freaks....seems it was too big a project to finance and manage properly.
I was VERY excited to see both Jean and Scherrie actively recording....the JSL unit was a legitimate 70's Supremes reunion. I WANT TO BE LOVED and the duet with the Originals BACK BY POPULAR DEMAND were excellent recordings....as far as the solo work done....I think some of Lynda's tracks had great potential.

[Circa 1824]

Yep, the Motown rule was “you show up and sing.” And the biggest stars in the world were made. When Ross wanted total control and left Motown, everything collapsed. She still demands total control. Such a damn pity because she has no talent in that arena.

I always said that a college course on “how not to manage one’s career” could focus on Ross after leaving Motown. She totally ignored what made her famous in the first place, and falsely believed it was all about her.

[BobbyC]

GMan--I have to say that I have never been a fan of Lynda's until recently. It's not like I ever had anything against her, I just didn't know anything about her. Now that I've seen the old clips I can honestly say she had the personality to carry the lead.

[Ollie9]

Berry knew that for the Supremes to continue as a hit makers, they needed a singer with a radio friendly commercial sounding pop/r& b voice. For that alone Jean was the perfect fit. Her voice is totally unique. You can be as vivacious and charismatic as is possible, but without that special sound it’s going to be much tougher. Top twenty pop hits ended once Jean left.
He also appears to have thought that the new Supremes would be more readily accepted by joe public if their lead singer had a voice quite similar to Diana’s. That’s probably why he opted for Syreeta when he got cold feet about Jean.

[marv2]

Berry knew that for the Supremes to continue as a hit makers, they needed a singer with a radio friendly commercial sounding pop/r& b voice. For that alone Jean was the perfect fit. Her voice is totally unique. You can be as vivacious and charismatic as is possible, but without that special sound it’s going to be much tougher. Top twenty pop hits ended once Jean left.
He also appears to have thought that the new Supremes would be more readily accepted by joe public if their lead singer had a voice quite similar to Diana’s. That’s probably why he opted for Syreeta when he got cold feet about Jean.

Syreeta had been with Motown almost 3 years by 1970, I wonder why they did not try to do anything with her in terms of recording and releasing material by her?

[marv2]

It's really a shame that the Motorcity project wasn't met with more success...Having the USA launch in Detroit was a very smart move...but it just didn't get enough attention elsewhere save for the UK soul freaks....seems it was too big a project to finance and manage properly.
I was VERY excited to see both Jean and Scherrie actively recording....the JSL unit was a legitimate 70's Supremes reunion. I WANT TO BE LOVED and the duet with the Originals BACK BY POPULAR DEMAND were excellent recordings....as far as the solo work done....I think some of Lynda's tracks had great potential.

There were some shady things that went on with the Motorcity project. Some artists were not paid for songs they wrote, along with some recordings. Ian Levine told me that the majority of the recordings and videos were targeted for foreign markets. They did not really push the material here in America.

[gman]

GMan--I have to say that I have never been a fan of Lynda's until recently. It's not like I ever had anything against her, I just didn't know anything about her. Now that I've seen the old clips I can honestly say she had the personality to carry the lead.
I like some of Lynda's work as a solo artist much better than anything with her fronting the group. Like Susaye her voice is a bit too piercing and sharp [[like Florence) for me. I am not a big fan of belty or shrill, and not everything requires a big "run all my notes" treatment. I find in the post-Jean FLO's live work there was a lot of over singing in Lynda's solos. I've often wondered how the issue of "control" was approached for the RTL appearances?....Have you ever heard her performance on John Kydd's 12" of Up The Ladder To The Roof? Scherrie, Cindy and Lynda [[along with Jayne Edwards) all took part in the recording and had solo's...but believe me...This was definitely Lynda's record....I can't find any updated info on John....according to the 12" pic cover text he was a very close buddy of Cindy's son, David.
When she's relaxed and reeled in, she can be a very pleasant listen. Lynda's recordings of Forever Came Today, Living With A Married Man, If This World Were Mine and Forever are the one's I enjoy the most.

[BobbyC]

I haven't heard any of Lynda's solo stuff--I guess I was just referring to Lynda's personality. I just saw an old Soul Train interview with Mary, Lynda and Jean and Lynda came off as confident, bubbly and fun.

[sup_fan]

I don't think so, RanRan. Motown knew that David's irresponsible behavior was due to drug use and that put him out of the running for any kind of push by Motown as a solo star. It's not like other Motown singers weren't doing drugs as well but they weren't in your face with it as David was. Berry Gordy didn't care that David was fired--Dennis came in effortlessly and the Tempts never missed a beat. Ruffin's drug problems were legendary and he earned his reputation.

and when he got kicked out of the Temps, didn't he try and absolve his contract with Motown? took them to court or something?

I think had he NOT done that, motown might have been a bit more interested in his solo capabilities. a bit. but what he did was truly heretical. even Flo didn't do that in public until the 70s!

so i guess they signed him to make the public feel that motown had NOT been wrong. had they immediately canned him, then it really would have looked like the company was an evil, vindictive entity. but they propped up the family myth and signed him after all of that drama. and he had a big hit too. My Whole World Ended is a great tune and it's success is certainly justified. but then they literally did NOTHING for him.

not that he himself isn't to blame. clearly a tormented person and the death of Tammi certainly didn't help. but the drugs and attitude guaranteed he would never be a success longterm at motown

[sup_fan]

I like some of Lynda's work as a solo artist much better than anything with her fronting the group. Like Susaye her voice is a bit too piercing and sharp [[like Florence) for me. I am not a big fan of belty or shrill, and not everything requires a big "run all my notes" treatment. I find in the post-Jean FLO's live work there was a lot of over singing in Lynda's solos. I've often wondered how the issue of "control" was approached for the RTL appearances?....Have you ever heard her performance on John Kydd's 12" of Up The Ladder To The Roof? Scherrie, Cindy and Lynda [[along with Jayne Edwards) all took part in the recording and had solo's...but believe me...This was definitely Lynda's record....I can't find any updated info on John....according to the 12" pic cover text he was a very close buddy of Cindy's son, David.
When she's relaxed and reeled in, she can be a very pleasant listen. Lynda's recordings of Forever Came Today, Living With A Married Man, If This World Were Mine and Forever are the one's I enjoy the most.

i'm not too familiar either with Lynda's work outside of the group. she does have a more piercing tone to her voice and i think that's why she probably fits better in more of a lead role. I never thought she and M achieved a blend even remotely as good as M and C.

as for the LMC temporary lineup, we have a few bootleg recordings that sound pretty good. always hard to really judge the quality of a person's vocals by listening to some ancient 100th generation dubbed cassette tape. I do think Lynda has a fabulous personality and fit well in the group. had it been LMC as an official lineup, that could have been a good one.

[Boogiedown]

There were some shady things that went on with the Motorcity project. Some artists were not paid for songs they wrote, along with some recordings. Ian Levine told me that the majority of the recordings and videos were targeted for foreign markets. They did not really push the material here in America.

I'd love to hear more about those MotorCity projects, Marv. I bet you know a lot more.
Can't blame Ian for targeting the European market , who still seemed to cherish all things Motown. Not sure why there wasn't more American involvement in this project, iows in-house interest from the Motown label especially . Any support from Berry Gordy himself?

Odd that a lone brit was hell bent on acknowledging and resurrecting these fading stars , while most of those closest to them were sort of ho-hum about it. Or do i have it wrong??

[marv2]

I like some of Lynda's work as a solo artist much better than anything with her fronting the group. Like Susaye her voice is a bit too piercing and sharp [[like Florence) for me. I am not a big fan of belty or shrill, and not everything requires a big "run all my notes" treatment. I find in the post-Jean FLO's live work there was a lot of over singing in Lynda's solos. I've often wondered how the issue of "control" was approached for the RTL appearances?....Have you ever heard her performance on John Kydd's 12" of Up The Ladder To The Roof? Scherrie, Cindy and Lynda [[along with Jayne Edwards) all took part in the recording and had solo's...but believe me...This was definitely Lynda's record....I can't find any updated info on John....according to the 12" pic cover text he was a very close buddy of Cindy's son, David.
When she's relaxed and reeled in, she can be a very pleasant listen. Lynda's recordings of Forever Came Today, Living With A Married Man, If This World Were Mine and Forever are the one's I enjoy the most.

Lynda has always had a loud bland voice that I never cared for. No character or warmth to it.

[marv2]

I'd love to hear more about those MotorCity projects, Marv. I bet you know a lot more.
Can't blame Ian for targeting the European market , who still seemed to cherish all things Motown. Not sure why there wasn't more American involvement in this project, iows in-house interest from the Motown label especially . Any support from Berry Gordy himself?

Odd that a lone brit was hell bent on acknowledging and resurrecting these fading stars , while most of those closest to them were sort of ho-hum about it. Or do i have it wrong??

You don't have it wrong and there is a lot more [[that I can't talk about because there was litigation involved and may still be going on). It was startling to see how many artists that Motown left behind in Detroit when Ian began his project. Support from Berry Gordy? HA! We couldn't get him to donate even a minimal amount to the Hitsville Museum back then! LOL!

[BobbyC]

I think you have it exactly right, Boogiedown. Motown artists love playing Europe because people over there appreciate them for their talent, and they don't seem to care if they have current hit records or not. Mary Wilson has said this herself and that's why she loves performing in Europe. I don't blame her! Here in America you either have a huge single or you are invisible and forgotten.

[marv2]

I wished Jean had not left the business altogether. I wished she would have continued to record new music and perhaps market it herself.

[marv2]

and when he got kicked out of the Temps, didn't he try and absolve his contract with Motown? took them to court or something?

I think had he NOT done that, motown might have been a bit more interested in his solo capabilities. a bit. but what he did was truly heretical. even Flo didn't do that in public until the 70s!

so i guess they signed him to make the public feel that motown had NOT been wrong. had they immediately canned him, then it really would have looked like the company was an evil, vindictive entity. but they propped up the family myth and signed him after all of that drama. and he had a big hit too. My Whole World Ended is a great tune and it's success is certainly justified. but then they literally did NOTHING for him.

not that he himself isn't to blame. clearly a tormented person and the death of Tammi certainly didn't help. but the drugs and attitude guaranteed he would never be a success longterm at motown

"Walk Away From Love" was a HUGE hit! I don't understand what you are talking about.

[marv2]

I don't think Motown actively killed the Supremes, I think Berry was too preoccupied with Diana to split equally the care needed to make Ross the first superstar of the 70's and to continue the success of the Supremes. He found a great voice in Jean Terrell but perhaps not the right fit for the Supremes image. When he changed his mind, he didn't actively put in as much care as he had in the past to give them a solid image. He was focused on Diana Ross, the Supremes were not the only group to lose his attention because of that. If he wanted Syreeta, he should have put her in the group. Refitting gowns while they were going forward with a new concept was all cost conscious. All they wanted to do was make as much money on the Supremes' name while they could. Slipping in someone with a great voice was a plus, but not realizing a new image or promoting Jean Terrell and her image did not bode well for longevity. As hard as it was for Terrell, it had to be harder for Wilson to see the company no longer make them a top priority. The push they gave was just to make money for the name recognition and reputation. Having to fight for the group and then deal with a new member who did not agree with you must have been very hard.

He didn't really want Syreeta, neither did Mary or Cindy. Syreeta had been with Motown going on 3 years by the time the spot in the Supremes opened up and the company had not done anything with her in regards to being a recording artist.

[gman]

Loved 75's [[?) Walk Away From Love....it was one of the few singles I really loved at the time and didn't buy...I was 15 and living on Babysitting cash...."reefer money!"

[TheMotownManiac]

Flo and Mary were lucky in a sense. Prior to them becoming a global phenomenon, they had approximately five years with Diana, cultivating their image, their sound, their chemistry together. Mary's first book puts Diana's official designation [[ie Gordy's verbal mandate) of lead singer as approximately late 63-early 64. But there's no question that Diana was the unofficial lead singer of the group from 1961-1964, yet there's also no question that they were as much a group as any other group of the day.

So when the girls became the legendary Supremes, there was room for each girl's identity. Sure, one girl got most of the leads and by extension a good amount of attention. It also didn't hurt that she was a little bit "extra" in nearly every way. But they were separate identities that equaled this incredible entertainment entity and as such, Flo and Mary enjoyed their own individual fame.

DRATS was something else entirely. That really was a solo artist with prominent background performers. It's interesting to note just how many TV performances DRATS did where Mary and Cindy are right up under Ross most of the time, like the Fats Waller medley. At first glance one wants to say "Hey, they're still a group here", but if you really pay attention this is all Diana Ross with vocal and dance accompaniment, not the Supremes, a singing group. [[It is, for the record, probably my favorite DRATS performance. Perfect in every way.) My point being, there was no room for Mary and Cindy's individualism the way there was when Flo was in the group. This was a test run. Diana Ross left the Supremes on the same night Florence did.

What set Diana Ross apart from the other Supremes and, even most of the other Motown acts is that she was a total entertainer. She moved on the stage, gracefully. Her smile really could light up a room. She had this ability to pull the audience into her every move, every word, every look. She was a fashionista. She was gorgeous. And she could flat out sing. Back her up with a full orchestra and she'll kill it. Throw her in front of a Funk Brother's groove and she'll knock it out of the park. Throw her a mic and no music and she'll still captivate. She possessed a magic that sometimes may have been difficult to even define. But you knew she had it. [[I think only Michael Jackson was the other Motown star to have that thing. I also think that if David Ruffin had gotten out of his own way, and then had the kind of attention that Diana got from the big guy, the same might be said of him also.)

Diana had the ingredients from day one, it just took someone to help her hone it. Would her full talent have been realized at Stax or Atlantic or Columbia? One might argue no. On the flipside it's always interesting to ponder what might have become of Florence or even Mary had they gone to another label where someone was more interested in their particular skills. But Diana Ross was definitely a diamond in the rough that, to Gordy's credit, he saw the value in and we all reaped the rewards.

i don’t know if you ever saw DMF OR DMC live, but you are correct when you say they were two different acts. DMF: each was a treat. They were different live because that was their medium where they honed their craft All three were engaging and charismatic. That didn’t really come across on TV especially with Mary. One of the reasons why they worked so well together live is because each was given exactly what they were good at doing, consequently all three shined. of course Diana was the focal point because it was her voice that was selling the records, and she was fantastic live, but Florence and Mary held up their end of the bargain beautifully.

when Florence left, the focus was entirely on Diana because they were grooming her for solo stardom, but also because Cindy was a dullard compared to Flo. Without Florence, Mary did not shine as bright and that had nothing to do with the focus of the group. Flos charisma was so strong that Mary benefited from it. when Cindy came, Mary had to use her lesser light to try to boost Cindy…… And it was nowhere near as good. Diana was growing into a powerhouse star, as evidenced by the fats Waller medley. Mary and Cindy are great in it, and Mary looks stupendous in her close-ups, but that was all icing on the diana ross cake. When diana left, there wasn’t anyone that shined really. Jean had a great voice, but it didn’t translate into sales, record or concert tickets. It takes more than a good voice to make a superstar or carry a group. Jean Mary and Cindy together didn’t have the stage presence or charisma that diana ross had on an off night.

Diana was captivating - an audience sponge. She got rave reviews for their Copa gig in 67 and she was so hoarse that I am shocked Motown made her work it. She could just barely sing and was certainly damaging her voice She was huge in countries that didn’t even speak English, but Still I wish you could’ve seen Mary and Florence in 1965 or 66 - They were perfect for their place in the act and they knew it. They should not have tried to mess with the perfect formula - like Coke did. GO WITH WHAT WORKS AND MADE HISTORY!!!

It was a good time to be a Supremes fan until Hollywood Palace Reflections. then It was a good time to be a diana ross fan.

[TheMotownManiac]

Carolyn Crawford would have definitely made a good replacement. Good call! Ultimately though, Jean Terrell was the ultimate and perfect candidate in my opinion. Thinking about it, She must have scared the shit out of a certain other singer. Why? Well because Berry Gordy just happen to go out for drinks one night at the Fountainbleu [[sp?) in Miami and without even trying real hard found a superb replacement for Diana Ross in the Supremes [[the biggest female act in the world at that time!). Some concluded that Jean Terrell was even a much better singer. This could not have done Miss Ross' self esteem much good..........LOL!

when the Jean albums began to tank in less than a year and concert venues went from arenas to theaters in 6 months, Miss Ross’ self esteem must have felt pretty damn good then by your standards. In pop culture, audiences decide what works and what doesn’t - a car can have a great engine, but if the chassis isn’t right, it won’t sell.

[jim aka jtigre99]

I would have to disagree that Cindy was a dullard in any respect. Each grouping had its own dynamics. Of course, since the original trio was the one that sparked the whole group it is inevitable that they would be the standard all were held up to. I also found Mary to be quite a focal point in the original group while Diana sang lead and was quite charismatic-Mary was quite beautiful and projected an air of certainty, assurance and calm as well as being the most excellent in their choreography while maintaining a beaming smile. Florence had a more girl next door appeal and she seemed a bit off with the choreography but conveyed an endearing and impish personality and while her voice was loud, I wouldn't say she was the total powerhouse pulling Mary along in their dynamics. Cindy was quite endearing and seemed more reserved than Florence but she was quite glamorous and beautiful in her own right. By now, Ross was such a focal point that someone could stand on their head and sing an aria and it still would have not had an impact as her ascendance was set in stone. I think starting with the DRATS period, Mary was feeling uneasy with her place in the group and stated on Donahue that she was even concerned she would be ousted from the group, so she started to project a more bubbly personae to match her million dollar smile. The fact that Cindy seemed to share a look and glamour with Mary made them blend together visually more than the individuality of Flo and Mary. Like I said , Jean was a good singer but she seemed to lack the charisma that even Mary or Cindy projected. It was fine, but not what was expected from the group. Still, musically I prefer the 1970's Supremes and even more so when Scherrie joined and lent her voice as well as her own pizzazz and glamour.

[BobbyC]

Cindy was a "dullard?" LOL where did that come from?

[marv2]

Loved 75's [[?) Walk Away From Love....it was one of the few singles I really loved at the time and didn't buy...I was 15 and living on Babysitting cash...."reefer money!"

Ahhhhh I was 15 too! LOL!!!

[rod_rick]

I would have to disagree that Cindy was a dullard in any respect. Each grouping had its own dynamics. Of course, since the original trio was the one that sparked the whole group it is inevitable that they would be the standard all were held up to. I also found Mary to be quite a focal point in the original group while Diana sang lead and was quite charismatic-Mary was quite beautiful and projected an air of certainty, assurance and calm as well as being the most excellent in their choreography while maintaining a beaming smile. Florence had a more girl next door appeal and she seemed a bit off with the choreography but conveyed an endearing and impish personality and while her voice was loud, I wouldn't say she was the total powerhouse pulling Mary along in their dynamics. Cindy was quite endearing and seemed more reserved than Florence but she was quite glamorous and beautiful in her own right. By now, Ross was such a focal point that someone could stand on their head and sing an aria and it still would have not had an impact as her ascendance was set in stone. I think starting with the DRATS period, Mary was feeling uneasy with her place in the group and stated on Donahue that she was even concerned she would be ousted from the group, so she started to project a more bubbly personae to match her million dollar smile. The fact that Cindy seemed to share a look and glamour with Mary made them blend together visually more than the individuality of Flo and Mary. Like I said , Jean was a good singer but she seemed to lack the charisma that even Mary or Cindy projected. It was fine, but not what was expected from the group. Still, musically I prefer the 1970's Supremes and even more so when Scherrie joined and lent her voice as well as her own pizzazz and glamour.

Jim
I agree with your assessment . While I love Flo I liked Cindy more which also allowed Mary to shine even more. I also notice that Mary and Cindy's blend really complemented Diana's vocals where Diana didn't have to compete with Flo's powerful voice. Sometimes less is more.

[jim aka jtigre99]

Cindy was a "dullard?" LOL where did that come from?
There was a previous post that stated that she was in comparison to Flo. I love all of the members and that was an assessment that I did not agree with.

[jim aka jtigre99]

Jim
I agree with your assessment . While I love Flo I liked Cindy more which also allowed Mary to shine even more. I also notice that Mary and Cindy's blend really complemented Diana's vocals where Diana didn't have to compete with Flo's powerful voice. Sometimes less is more.
I didn't become a fan until 1970. To me the Supremes always were Mary and Cindy whether they were with Diana, Jean or Scherrie. That is not to say that Florence[[obviously), Lynda and Scherrie did not contribute their own uniqueness to the group but the visual and vocal blend of Mary & Cindy were just excellent and complimentary to all involved.

[Ollie9]

Vocally, the blend of Flo and Mary’s voice was for me the best. I think Florence’s full and robust voice added character to many of the groups recordings.Their harmony's on the Sing Rodgers and Hart set are sublime. Cindy has a pretty voice that was adaptable. Sadly she was never really given the chance to show just what she was capable of at Motown. I’ve always thought she sounded a lot like the late Minnie Ripperton.

[luke]

I feel similarly about Mary and Flo blend though when Mary and Cindy let loose as on Up the Ladder, Stoned Love, Time to Breakdown, they were knock outs.

[marv2]

Flo, Mary and Diane produced the best harmonies. Flo's voice gave the group a legit sound.

[TheMotownManiac]

I feel similarly about Mary and Flo blend though when Mary and Cindy let loose as on Up the Ladder, Stoned Love, Time to Breakdown, they were knock outs.

the Andantes are all over Up The Ladder, provide ooooo’s on Stoned Love But other than that I don’t consider Mary and Cindy on Stone love anything more than serviceable……I agree they sound good on Break Down.

there’s a reason producers added to or totally replaced Mary and Cindy in the studio frequently end it wasn’t group politics, it wasn’t favoritism and it wasn’t for punishment or extortion. Mary’s voice is an incredible instrument in the right niche, but I consider Cindy‘s voice to be quite bland.

I think Cindy was a great replacement for Florence because she moved beautifully she was shapely in the beginning and seem to step right in. But when I saw them in person at Illinois state in 1967, Cindy appeared to me to be a non-entity compared to Flos surging personality. She came across better on television.

[BobbyC]

Jim--honestly, when I read the dullard comment I bursted out laughing! Nobody ever says anything bad about Cindy and that comment was so over-the-top that I laughed!

[blackguy69]

Actually according to Brenda Joyce Evans , Billie Rae Calvin and her were on Up the Ladder , they did their vocal parts Early on and Mary and Cindy did theirs after the farewell performance. Truth be told it doesn’t sounds like the andantes on either up the Ladder or Stoned Love we’ve been thru this already it does sound like Jean is singing with them plus an added voice or 2.
the Andantes are all over Up The Ladder, provide ooooo’s on Stoned Love But other than that I don’t consider Mary and Cindy on Stone love anything more than serviceable……I agree they sound good on Break Down.

there’s a reason producers added to or totally replaced Mary and Cindy in the studio frequently end it wasn’t group politics, it wasn’t favoritism and it wasn’t for punishment or extortion. Mary’s voice is an incredible instrument in the right niche, but I consider Cindy‘s voice to be quite bland.

I think Cindy was a great replacement for Florence because she moved beautifully she was shapely in the beginning and seem to step right in. But when I saw them in person at Illinois state in 1967, Cindy appeared to me to be a non-entity compared to Flos surging personality. She came across better on television.

[marv2]

Actually according to Brenda Joyce Evans , Billie Rae Calvin and her were on Up the Ladder , they did their vocal parts Early on and Mary and Cindy did theirs after the farewell performance. Truth be told it doesn’t sounds like the andantes on either up the Ladder or Stoned Love we’ve been thru this already it does sound like Jean is singing with them plus an added voice or 2.

Neither they or the Andantes are not on either of those records. Brenda and them may have done a scratch demo, but that is about all. They are not on any released version of "Up the Ladder to the Roof". A lot of these session singers get confused over that practice of recording demos and thinking they are recording the actual record.

[sup_fan]

the Andantes are all over Up The Ladder, provide ooooo’s on Stoned Love But other than that I don’t consider Mary and Cindy on Stone love anything more than serviceable……I agree they sound good on Break Down.

there’s a reason producers added to or totally replaced Mary and Cindy in the studio frequently end it wasn’t group politics, it wasn’t favoritism and it wasn’t for punishment or extortion. Mary’s voice is an incredible instrument in the right niche, but I consider Cindy‘s voice to be quite bland.

I think Cindy was a great replacement for Florence because she moved beautifully she was shapely in the beginning and seem to step right in. But when I saw them in person at Illinois state in 1967, Cindy appeared to me to be a non-entity compared to Flos surging personality. She came across better on television.

actually i don't think the A's are on Stoned Love. It's just MJC doing 3 part background vocals

as for the ladder, i think the A's [[or some additional singers) are layered in a bit similar to the approach on CW&P. MJC are the predominant backgrounds with the additional ones just filling in the sound. as opposed to songs like Going Down 3rd Time where you can clearly hear one background group doing one part and another doing a different part

[TheMotownManiac]

Jim--honestly, when I read the dullard comment I bursted out laughing! Nobody ever says anything bad about Cindy and that comment was so over-the-top that I laughed!

I knew it wasn’t going to be popular to post, but it’s Honestly how I felt. I don’t think the group was as popular after Flo left. She was very, very popular with the fans. It was a confusing time: Cindy was on the Hollywood palace, Florence was all over the greatest hits album that just came out, and it was diana mary and Florence on the poster for the concert at Illinois State…… But we got Cindy.
don’t get me wrong, Cindy is a sweetheart – probably the nicest of all the Supremes, certainly of the ones I met, but I truly missed Flo’s spark. Greatly missed it.

[TheMotownManiac]

actually i don't think the A's are on Stoned Love. It's just MJC doing 3 part background vocals

as for the ladder, i think the A's [[or some additional singers) are layered in a bit similar to the approach on CW&P. MJC are the predominant backgrounds with the additional ones just filling in the sound. as opposed to songs like Going Down 3rd Time where you can clearly hear one background group doing one part and another doing a different part

Jean said in an interview that she either never or almost never saying a background part with Mary and Cindy or Mary and lynda. She supported that statement by saying something to the effect that she might not even be there the day they did the backgrounds. Perhaps Stoned Love was the rare exception, but it still goes to my point that Mary and Cindy needed augmentation.
Andy said on here that The Andantes were on up the ladder to the roof, but perhaps it was the other singers that he just labeled as the andantes or forgot it was those other girls. It’s still the absolute quintessential new supreme’s debut record…… Nothing they did before or since would’ve been more appropriate or fabulous. It came out just as Sun Gari was evaporating and the new group hit the ground running I still play that 45 to pieces. I wish the person who mixed The Supremes ultimate collection, We do the same thing for the new Supremes.

[TheMotownManiac]

Neither they or the Andantes are not on either of those records. Brenda and them may have done a scratch demo, but that is about all. They are not on any released version of "Up the Ladder to the Roof". A lot of these session singers get confused over that practice of recording demos and thinking they are recording the actual record.

tell that to Andy and George with the session annotations. LOL!

[sup_fan]

Jean said in an interview that she either never or almost never saying a background part with Mary and Cindy or Mary and lynda. She supported that statement by saying something to the effect that she might not even be there the day they did the backgrounds. Perhaps Stoned Love was the rare exception, but it still goes to my point that Mary and Cindy needed augmentation.
Andy said on here that The Andantes were on up the ladder to the roof, but perhaps it was the other singers that he just labeled as the andantes or forgot it was those other girls. It’s still the absolute quintessential new supreme’s debut record…… Nothing they did before or since would’ve been more appropriate or fabulous. It came out just as Sun Gari was evaporating and the new group hit the ground running I still play that 45 to pieces. I wish the person who mixed The Supremes ultimate collection, We do the same thing for the new Supremes.

yeah i sort of use the term Andantes interchangeably. not really sure who all was doing female backing parts on motown tracks. I know there were more than just the actual A's.

if you listen to the songs that have added vocals [[like the FJ album), you can often pick out which group is doing which part based on the channel the sound is coming through. for the FJ set, the A's seem to be clearly in one channel while M and C are in the other

for Jimmy Webb [[unfortunately) it seems that the Blossoms and the supremes recorded together. they're not on separate tracks so there's no wiping out the B's in order to keep just M and L

On Stoned Love, i've wondered if the "say it, say it like it is" part was the A's. but i'm not getting that separate channel distinction and if you listen to karaoke version with no lead, it's just the 3 girls - MCJ.

I don't think jean did a lot of backgrounds but i think she did some early on. Ladder, Stoned. Loving Country. Jean has a higher soprano voice that Cindy so in much of the 3 part harmony work, Jean is singing 1st soprano. Like the real high note in Stoned Love after lead sings "i pray for peace and love, Amen. Woooooo"

[RanRan79]

and when he got kicked out of the Temps, didn't he try and absolve his contract with Motown? took them to court or something?

I think had he NOT done that, motown might have been a bit more interested in his solo capabilities. a bit. but what he did was truly heretical. even Flo didn't do that in public until the 70s!

so i guess they signed him to make the public feel that motown had NOT been wrong. had they immediately canned him, then it really would have looked like the company was an evil, vindictive entity. but they propped up the family myth and signed him after all of that drama. and he had a big hit too. My Whole World Ended is a great tune and it's success is certainly justified. but then they literally did NOTHING for him.

not that he himself isn't to blame. clearly a tormented person and the death of Tammi certainly didn't help. but the drugs and attitude guaranteed he would never be a success longterm at motown

I forgot about David's suit! Duh! Yeah, that didn't do him any favors nor endear him to the top spots at Motown. However, I think David was allowed to hang around all those years because, as I said before, the potential for massive greatness was there. The man didn't just have a great voice, he was a showman. He also had a very interesting look and carried himself with the air of a star. David was David's own worst enemy. Of course the label isn't going to throw it's full weight behind someone they can't trust to stay sober and out of trouble. But no doubt there was hope, at least for a time, that he'd do just that.

It's sickening that when talking about the major stars of Motown, David Ruffin is not among them as solo artists. He should've been HUGE.

[RanRan79]

i'm not too familiar either with Lynda's work outside of the group. she does have a more piercing tone to her voice and i think that's why she probably fits better in more of a lead role. I never thought she and M achieved a blend even remotely as good as M and C.

Oh good, we're back to disagreeing.:cool:

I think Mary and Lynda as backing were the exciting shot in the arm that the Supremes sound needed. For my taste, it gets no better than Flo and Mary. When Cindy comes in, the sound becomes a bit bland, although it does have interesting character. At their best, Mary and Cindy sound absolutely beautiful together. At worse, I wish the producers had decided to go with session singers. Mary and Cindy lacked the energy and gusto that was present when Flo was there. On the MOR stuff, like Funny Girl, Mary and Cindy actually fit in. On the r&b/pop stuff, not so much. I am not of the opinion that Mary and Cindy on "Love Child" would've worked. I just don't think they had it in them to keep up with the energy of Diana's lead, not unless the Andantes were also added to it.

Lynda brought that robust energy that was present when Flo was in the group and Mary stepped her game back up. It's too bad that we never got a full studio album's worth of Lynda with the group without added vocal accompaniment.

[RanRan79]

There were some shady things that went on with the Motorcity project. Some artists were not paid for songs they wrote, along with some recordings. Ian Levine told me that the majority of the recordings and videos were targeted for foreign markets. They did not really push the material here in America.

That stuff wasn't taking off in America because it sucked. I do think Ian's heart was in the right place. Unfortunately he took these incredibly talented folks, most of whom Motown never bothered to really do anything with, and paired them up with the most karaoke, recorded in my cousin's basement on 20 year old equipment, tracks that he could conjure up, and for my taste it doesn't make for a pleasant listening experience. There are some exceptions, of course. The Marvelettes' "Secret Love Affair" I think had the makings, had it been remixed, to become a hit in the clubs, if not a modest one on general radio. I actually play it fairly often.

[RanRan79]

I wished Jean had not left the business altogether. I wished she would have continued to record new music and perhaps market it herself.

Not too many artist had the know how or the financial capability to undertake such a task during that time. I wish wherever she landed that the person[[s) in charge took great care to handle Jean while also giving the public solid product. It only takes one somebody to really be in your corner. Remember 95 percent of success in the music business is luck. How different the stories of our favorite artists- successful and not as successful- might have been if they had run into or avoided a particular person[[s).

[RanRan79]

Admittedly, because I'm such a huge Jean fan, I couldn't care less who's singing backup when she's singing lead. Just a personal opinion.

[khansperac]

When Cindy joined the group, they sounded so different live. I don’t know if Mary was trying to be noticed, or if she was trying to cover for Cindy’s lack of power, but it didn’t sound good. Florence was missed. The Flo, Mary combo was superb- or should I say Supreme.

[RanRan79]

When Cindy joined the group, they sounded so different live. I don’t know if Mary was trying to be noticed, or if she was trying to cover for Cindy’s lack of power, but it didn’t sound good. Florence was missed. The Flo, Mary combo was superb- or should I say Supreme.

I always thought she was trying to cover up for Cindy's different vocal ability. They did achieve a really nice blend in the studio and sometimes live. The Farewell album is not one of those examples though. Diana is the only one who sounds good IMO, except for Cindy's part of "Sunshine". She did a good job with that.

[Ollie9]

I think Mary and Lynda as backing were the exciting shot in the arm that the Supremes sound needed.

Lynda brought that robust energy that was present when Flo was in the group and Mary stepped her game back up. It's too bad that we never got a full studio album's worth of Lynda with the group without added vocal accompaniment.

Absolutely.... Lynda reignited the Supremes flame with a spark that had been missing for a time. She was/is a a dynamic singer who also came across as fresh and exciting both visually as well as vocally. Had she not also decided to hang up her Supreme shoes, she would have been the perfect replacement as lead singer. Vocally i find her voice a ‘tad more commercial sounding then Scherrie.
If Cindy had returned, i think an LMC combo would have been an exciting one with Mary and Cindy being featured to a much larger extent.
M’s Birdsong must surely been frustrated many a time about not being given more to do. Her voice perfectly fits the public perception of what the Supremes sound should be at the time.

[rod_rick]

When Cindy joined the group, they sounded so different live. I don’t know if Mary was trying to be noticed, or if she was trying to cover for Cindy’s lack of power, but it didn’t sound good. Florence was missed. The Flo, Mary combo was superb- or should I say Supreme.

I think Mary was trying to be noticed. If you look at any concert shots of the Supremes with Cindy Birdsong check out how close the other group members sing into the mic compared to Cindy especially Mary. There are times when Cindy is right in the mix. The Hollywood Bowl performance Cindy is right in there but Live at The Talk Of The Town she's not very audible.

[marv2]

yeah i sort of use the term Andantes interchangeably. not really sure who all was doing female backing parts on motown tracks. I know there were more than just the actual A's.

if you listen to the songs that have added vocals [[like the FJ album), you can often pick out which group is doing which part based on the channel the sound is coming through. for the FJ set, the A's seem to be clearly in one channel while M and C are in the other

for Jimmy Webb [[unfortunately) it seems that the Blossoms and the supremes recorded together. they're not on separate tracks so there's no wiping out the B's in order to keep just M and L

On Stoned Love, i've wondered if the "say it, say it like it is" part was the A's. but i'm not getting that separate channel distinction and if you listen to karaoke version with no lead, it's just the 3 girls - MCJ.

I don't think jean did a lot of backgrounds but i think she did some early on. Ladder, Stoned. Loving Country. Jean has a higher soprano voice that Cindy so in much of the 3 part harmony work, Jean is singing 1st soprano. Like the real high note in Stoned Love after lead sings "i pray for peace and love, Amen. Woooooo"

The Andantes are not even on "Stoned Love" . You are hallucinating.

[JimEMack]

All of this thread makes me wonder what life was like at Motown for Jean. I've never seen any comments about how she fit into the Motown Family? Did they see her as the new kid on the block or the DRoss 2? Did Martha Reeves see her as a rival for material and attention? What about Wanda and the Marvelettes? Did her attitude exceed her accomplishments or did people reach out to guide her.

Clay MacMurrray was on record as saying she was a sweetheart in the studio. Have there been any other produce or writer's comments?

[TYK1986]

I too would like to hear more about Jean from other members of Motown. That reminds me to re-read the booklet from the four tops/supremes duet CD. I think Abdul was interviewed for that release.

I don't know how Jean felt but it seems from reading here that Jean was unhappy. I know people and I myself have been very down and unhappy at one point in live. And I'm sure some of you have been too. Being unhappy can cause some to become sick. It can be from not eating, lack of sleep, headaches etc. In my case I just stopped completely what I was doing and started a new chapter in life. I was like a zombie before that lol. Anyway, I think Jean will never share with us about what happened back then. We can all but speculate.

As for Cindy which some talked about on this thread. Don't forget that Cindy came in the group believing that Diana was the leader "according to Mary's book". She had no opportunity to create her own persona on stage because by the time she joined most of their live and tv performances were staged even the in between song jokes. Watch/listen to their live in Amsterdam, Sweden, Talk of Town and others. Diana recites the same sentences over and over. Every show is a different show, our conductor drinks, a sweet song from and more. And everything was staged to highlight Diana. Cindy was only given a few words that Florence used to say like skinny might be in but....

[TYK1986]

From the complete studio duets. For the ones that don't have it.

Duke recalled the high anticipation around the sessions. " Jean Terrell was very, very professional," he said. " She had a smooth way of singing, and a lovely way of presenting those songs. She was very comfortable to be around, and always had a big smile on her face.

[sup_fan]

i've never heard any significant stories from motown employees or artists bad mouthing Jean or criticizing things. Other than the story of Berry wanting to replace here at the farewell.

my understanding from fan stories and feedback is that the bulk of the problems where within the group. Mary and Jean began to have differences rather early on. But IMO these were more differing views of opinion or ideas, not huge blow ups or fights. And i think many times the girls were very happy. just like with DMF, not every minute of every day was bickering and fights.

Jean had had very limited recording and record label experience prior to Motown. and we all know that motown was a business, not a fairy land. Like most people, jean probably bought into the idea of a hip, cool, blackowned label where it's a big family. but the reality was it was a high-pressure business focused on turning a profit. my guess is that the label and Mary were focused on maintaining the glitzy, girly-girl image and jean wanted to evolve that. perhaps she felt that as the lead singer she would have some degree of leadership role within the group and it's direction. that does not appear to have been the case and i'm sure that would have become frustrating. especially as public interest and support for the group waned. Jean probably was saying things like "come on people - let's modernize and move forward." meanwhile they reverted back to DRATS songs like Somewhere and you're nobody.

[jim aka jtigre99]

I really haven't seen too much on how other Motowners felt about Jean. Mary had said in a CD note that her , Cindy and Jean were a good combination of personalities and got along well but in her books she said Jean was very reserved and withdrawn and once the group slipped in popularity she became difficult and would not always be "on" when performing to less and less people. Lynda had worked with her in both the Supremes and FLOs, Cindy had worked with her and Scherrie had worked with her in the FLOs. Just wondering what they had to say, same with A&M who recorded her and then she didn't promote her own work. I wonder if her beliefs may have caused issues with her companies and coworkers. She had a wonderful voice, but her stage personae lacked something. Still, even with Mary, you do not hear anything negative regarding her just a difference of opinions.Still, it would be nice to know how they felt personally especially since she took over for Diana Ross. That alone should have caused major curiosity about her personally.

[marv2]

I really haven't seen too much on how other Motowners felt about Jean. Mary had said in a CD note that her , Cindy and Jean were a good combination of personalities and got along well but in her books she said Jean was very reserved and withdrawn and once the group slipped in popularity she became difficult and would not always be "on" when performing to less and less people. Lynda had worked with her in both the Supremes and FLOs, Cindy had worked with her and Scherrie had worked with her in the FLOs. Just wondering what they had to say, same with A&M who recorded her and then she didn't promote her own work. I wonder if her beliefs may have caused issues with her companies and coworkers. She had a wonderful voice, but her stage personae lacked something. Still, even with Mary, you do not hear anything negative regarding her just a difference of opinions.Still, it would be nice to know how they felt personally especially since she took over for Diana Ross. That alone should have caused major curiosity about her personally.

Jean was popular with the guys at Motown when she first arrived. Frank Wilson liked her a lot. She got along very well with the Four Tops and others. When I met Jean, she was a doll!

[luke]

Mary talked about Jean disrespecting her and how she felt like throttling her or something like that.

[BobbyC]

Jean, after some time went by, started getting defensive in interviews. At one point she said something to the effect of "My joining the group did not diminish its status--maybe in some people's minds it did." I am paraphrasing but that is close to what she said. The shadow of the prior Supremes was long and cold. Idiot journalists couldn't think of anything original to write about these new Supremes so they fell back on comparing the old group to the new--lazy journalism but unsurprising. I would imagine that Jean felt no matter how well she did, it would never be good enough. And it wasn't--not because she didn't have the talent, but because she was plugged into a fading role. The music business changed completely in just a few years--by 1970 it was a new ball game. People didn't want all that Vegas bullsmit. Even the Jacksons complained in 1974 that Vegas was a "glittering graveyard" and didn't want to play there. Diana Ross understood this, and although she still played there, she completely revamped her show to be of the moment. It worked. The Supremes did not evolve until Scherrie came on board but it was too late.

[sup_fan]

i'd say the supremes DIDN'T evolve with Scherrie but regressed. that LA show that was posted here recently shows how much they had not evolved. still very Vegas. Mary even mentions that was a primary complaint when MSC took the act to England in late 75.

not sure who was blocking the idea of evolving the group and clutching onto an old, out dated image. I'm suspecting it was Mary but just my opinion. she was in the group throughout the 70s and by 73, was running the group. If she had wanted a totally new approach, look and sound, then it would have happened.

as for Jean, she too wanted to ditch the old look and approach and do new things. I believe she felt that as the lead singer [[and a sensational singer), she should have a pretty big say in what they did. mary felt that since she'd been around the longest, she got to say what they did. and apparently they couldn't really get aligned

[blackguy69]

It’s more of management than Mary alone. Plus everyone involved had to agree on what they’re presenting.
i'd say the supremes DIDN'T evolve with Scherrie but regressed. that LA show that was posted here recently shows how much they had not evolved. still very Vegas. Mary even mentions that was a primary complaint when MSC took the act to England in late 75.

not sure who was blocking the idea of evolving the group and clutching onto an old, out dated image. I'm suspecting it was Mary but just my opinion. she was in the group throughout the 70s and by 73, was running the group. If she had wanted a totally new approach, look and sound, then it would have happened.

as for Jean, she too wanted to ditch the old look and approach and do new things. I believe she felt that as the lead singer [[and a sensational singer), she should have a pretty big say in what they did. mary felt that since she'd been around the longest, she got to say what they did. and apparently they couldn't really get aligned

[BobbyC]

Sup_fan--I disagree completely. I was a kid when Scherrie came on the scene and frankly from 1975 on I thought the group ditched their old image [[well, kind of) and took on a more up-to-date image and sound. Yeah they still did some Vegassy stuff in concert [[I guess--I was too young to ever see them) but to a kid like me, they were of the moment.

[sup_fan]

Sup_fan--I disagree completely. I was a kid when Scherrie came on the scene and frankly from 1975 on I thought the group ditched their old image [[well, kind of) and took on a more up-to-date image and sound. Yeah they still did some Vegassy stuff in concert [[I guess--I was too young to ever see them) but to a kid like me, they were of the moment.

it's always fun comparing on here! and see, i feel almost the opposite.

Their stage shows continued to rely on the Dream sequence, the opening of "Everyone Gets to go to the moon" or tonight/we've only just begun.

I thought the new outfits were pretty but so not appropriate for disco. like the Tonight Show performance of He's My Man. who the heck can do those complex disco dance steps wearing a giant chiffon ball gown?!?!

[sup_fan]

It’s more of management than Mary alone. Plus everyone involved had to agree on what they’re presenting.

mary was the management. she [[and pedro) were running Supremes Inc. Motown certainly wasn't involved in the look and sound of their live performances. And we asked Susaye years ago on here if she and Scherrie were involved in selecting gowns, song choices, etc. She said they really weren't.

Now i don't know if that means they NEVER had any involvement. when susaye started, she sang He Aint Heavy, pretty much the same arrangement jean used when in the group. now maybe she had the option of picking out of the Supremes' musical songbook. she was also brought in with the idea of maybe writing and/or producing for the group. didn't happen

[blackguy69]

It was more like Pedro was management but they weren’t pre 75 when these problems started to pop up. Jeans arrangement is slower and more of a solo effort as opposed to Susaye’s version which is a little faster and more of a group effort.

mary was the management. she [[and pedro) were running Supremes Inc. Motown certainly wasn't involved in the look and sound of their live performances. And we asked Susaye years ago on here if she and Scherrie were involved in selecting gowns, song choices, etc. She said they really weren't.

Now i don't know if that means they NEVER had any involvement. when susaye started, she sang He Aint Heavy, pretty much the same arrangement jean used when in the group. now maybe she had the option of picking out of the Supremes' musical songbook. she was also brought in with the idea of maybe writing and/or producing for the group. didn't happen

[RanRan79]

i'd say the supremes DIDN'T evolve with Scherrie but regressed. that LA show that was posted here recently shows how much they had not evolved. still very Vegas. Mary even mentions that was a primary complaint when MSC took the act to England in late 75.

not sure who was blocking the idea of evolving the group and clutching onto an old, out dated image. I'm suspecting it was Mary but just my opinion. she was in the group throughout the 70s and by 73, was running the group. If she had wanted a totally new approach, look and sound, then it would have happened.

as for Jean, she too wanted to ditch the old look and approach and do new things. I believe she felt that as the lead singer [[and a sensational singer), she should have a pretty big say in what they did. mary felt that since she'd been around the longest, she got to say what they did. and apparently they couldn't really get aligned

I think Mary was a big part of the issue. I've said before, and it bears repeating, that Mary did not have a risk personality. If you go over everything that has been written and said by the original Supremes and those who knew them at the time, going back to the very beginning, Florence and Diana took charge of everything. Every time someone mentions anything to do with a decision, no one, including Mary, ever names her as a decision maker, outside of something being put to a vote. She followed Flo and Diana into every move of the group. So in my mind, once Mary is the last original standing, I imagine that she held dear the mantra of "play it safe", because she really don't have the skill to be either a leader or an effective leader, and that extends to the vision of the group.

I don't think Mary took any real monumental risks in her career until she made the decision to leave the group, a huge risk indeed. But of course she followed that up by playing it safe again and again and again, until she dropped the first book. And then it was back to the same ole, same ole. Rinse and repeat. I'll always believe that with excellent management Mary Wilson could've been a solo star. Probably not a superstar, but a star. But even if you ignore the fact that she had horrible management in the 80s, I think Mary hindered herself more than anything. She just never seemed to be able to figure out what direction to move in. I wonder if this is what was going on with her in the 70s, knowing she needs to move forward, but couldn't figure out the direction, and so instead of choosing something progressive, she allowed the group to stick to the tried and true, but tired.

[marv2]

Mary talked about Jean disrespecting her and how she felt like throttling her or something like that.

She said that.......ONCE. They are friends to this day. Jean, however, cannot stand to be in the same room as Lynda Laurence to this day!

[luke]

I hear you. Good for Mary and Jean!

[BayouMotownMan]

She said that.......ONCE. They are friends to this day. Jean, however, cannot stand to be in the same room as Lynda Laurence to this day!

Totally false as usual Marv, Jean and Lynda are friends to this day and not too long ago attended a Jehovah Witness convention in Seattle I think it was. Jean still calls Lynda LL. Anymore inside Motown knowledge?

Jean rarely communicates with Mary or any other Supreme

[Roberta75]

Totally false as usual Marv, Jean and Lynda are friends to this day and not too long ago attended a Jehovah Witness convention in Seattle I think it was. Jean still calls Lynda LL. Anymore inside Motown knowledge?

Jean rarely communicates with Mary or any other Supreme

He peddles more BS and lies than Bunker Boy Trump.

[BayouMotownMan]

Troubled minds usually do

[sup_fan]

It was more like Pedro was management but they weren’t pre 75 when these problems started to pop up. Jeans arrangement is slower and more of a solo effort as opposed to Susaye’s version which is a little faster and more of a group effort.

agreed - pedro came after Jean had left

Oh yes, they might have made some slight adjustments to He Aint Heavy. i only heard jean do it solo, not sure if M&C or M&L did backups on it. when susaye did it, S and M were doing backgrounds. Susaye also sang People, which was another Jean solo. clearly they were repurposing the existing materials in their songbook

[sup_fan]

I think Mary was a big part of the issue. I've said before, and it bears repeating, that Mary did not have a risk personality. If you go over everything that has been written and said by the original Supremes and those who knew them at the time, going back to the very beginning, Florence and Diana took charge of everything. Every time someone mentions anything to do with a decision, no one, including Mary, ever names her as a decision maker, outside of something being put to a vote. She followed Flo and Diana into every move of the group. So in my mind, once Mary is the last original standing, I imagine that she held dear the mantra of "play it safe", because she really don't have the skill to be either a leader or an effective leader, and that extends to the vision of the group.

I don't think Mary took any real monumental risks in her career until she made the decision to leave the group, a huge risk indeed. But of course she followed that up by playing it safe again and again and again, until she dropped the first book. And then it was back to the same ole, same ole. Rinse and repeat. I'll always believe that with excellent management Mary Wilson could've been a solo star. Probably not a superstar, but a star. But even if you ignore the fact that she had horrible management in the 80s, I think Mary hindered herself more than anything. She just never seemed to be able to figure out what direction to move in. I wonder if this is what was going on with her in the 70s, knowing she needs to move forward, but couldn't figure out the direction, and so instead of choosing something progressive, she allowed the group to stick to the tried and true, but tired.

I don't know Mary's career well enough as a solo artist but it seems she made some attempts to diversify but always had to fall back to the "oldies but goodies/fake supremes stuff." Girl gotta pay her bills! Mary seems to have tried to sustain this "lifestyle of the rich and famous" image. living high or at least having the public think she was still the uber-rich supreme. That takes a lot of money to sustain

[sup_fan]

Totally false as usual Marv, Jean and Lynda are friends to this day and not too long ago attended a Jehovah Witness convention in Seattle I think it was. Jean still calls Lynda LL. Anymore inside Motown knowledge?

Jean rarely communicates with Mary or any other Supreme

just like he tries to constantly say Mary is perfect, Lynda is in the his doghouse just like Diana. any opportunity to bad mouth either of them is what he's going to do.

[floyjoy678]

Totally false as usual Marv, Jean and Lynda are friends to this day and not too long ago attended a Jehovah Witness convention in Seattle I think it was. Jean still calls Lynda LL. Anymore inside Motown knowledge?

Jean rarely communicates with Mary or any other Supreme

Rick didn't Jean maintain a close friendship with Cindy throughout the years as well? I recall Mary saying a lot of times she had to communicate with Jean through Cindy.

[BayouMotownMan]

Rick didn't Jean maintain a close friendship with Cindy throughout the years as well? I recall Mary saying a lot of times she had to communicate with Jean through Cindy.

Yes Jean bonded more with Cindy and that's a testament to Cindy's sweet personality. Jean's relationship with Mary became increasingly strained especially after Cindy left but in more recent years they have buried the hatchet so to speak. Jean has put show business behind her and lives her life as a mom, a grandmom and is a devout Jehovah Witness. She wants nothing to do with show business and rarely communicates with any of the ladies except for Lynda who is also a JW. She has occasional communications with Lynda.

[RanRan79]

I don't know Mary's career well enough as a solo artist but it seems she made some attempts to diversify but always had to fall back to the "oldies but goodies/fake supremes stuff." Girl gotta pay her bills! Mary seems to have tried to sustain this "lifestyle of the rich and famous" image. living high or at least having the public think she was still the uber-rich supreme. That takes a lot of money to sustain

Mary was all over the place in the 80s. Rocker, songstress, oldies, the lady couldn't make up her mind. And that's what I mean. I think if she had focused on something she may have been successful at it. I wonder too if this was the issue she had with certain record labels. Obviously there was some interests in her, at least to the point where they entertained Mary's interests in them, but I could imagine labels scratching their heads trying to figure out who does this chick want to be? Personally I think had she recorded some Anita Baker type demos and shopped them around, put together an act that mixed the smooth jazz/r&b sound that was doing so well at the time, she'd have found some takers. But I don't think anyone took Mary seriously as a rocker, and there was nothing left but to do old Supremes cuts and take the show on the road. Those oldies weren't going to get Mary a deal either.

[sup_fan]

yeah - rehashing the Supremes stuff continued to pay the bills. and i know Mary did venture out into other forays. like acting and all. by the mid 80s though, i think the idea of a "pop" record deal were pretty much gone. she was in her 40s and it's not very common for a record artist to start a solo career at that age. besides she had shopped every label and none of the came to anything

agree that she should have refocused on other aspects of her talent.

[George Solomon]

A nice moment a few years back in LA at one of the gown exhibits... When asking about Cindy's health, Jean put both hands on her heart and said, "I love her. You know Cindy is my heart."

[marv2]

A nice moment a few years back in LA at one of the gown exhibits... When asking about Cindy's health, Jean put both hands on her heart and said, "I love her. You know Cindy is my heart."

That is wonderful to hear. Thank you George for sharing that.

[BayouMotownMan]

A nice moment a few years back in LA at one of the gown exhibits... When asking about Cindy's health, Jean put both hands on her heart and said, "I love her. You know Cindy is my heart."

When I interviewed Jean in 1978 she said Cindy took more time with her. I think Jean may have stayed with Cindy for a while in the beginning.

[midnightman]

I would agree with you on this. However, I think something happen that evening at the Frontier hotel between Gordy and Terrell that made him say Jean is out. Just my two cents on the whole thing for him to go that far and want to pull the plug.

I agree. Something happened that made Berry thought twice about Jean and decided last minute to have Jean replaced by Syreeta. I think this was when Berry started to lose his Midas touch. Then again, I wonder if Syreeta would've went along with it considering she was working with Stevie... hmm...

[midnightman]

Why would you join the most famous girl group in the world knowing they had a real huge Gay following if you dissapproved of homosexuality? When I heard that Jean didnt care for Gay people I was soooo done with her.

JT being a homophobe broke my heart. Like I get it: if you're religious, be religious, but don't force your beliefs on me smh

[midnightman]

I think Mary was trying to be noticed. If you look at any concert shots of the Supremes with Cindy Birdsong check out how close the other group members sing into the mic compared to Cindy especially Mary. There are times when Cindy is right in the mix. The Hollywood Bowl performance Cindy is right in there but Live at The Talk Of The Town she's not very audible.

I think I read somewhere in one of the Supremes books that after Florence left, Mary tried her best to be the "new Flo" and Cindy was where Mary used to be when Florence was with the group... Mary in the late '60s wanted to be seen and heard versus the Mary in the early-to-mid '60s that was happy to be the middle woman in between two extremes: the soulful, brassy Flo and the daring, enigmatic Diana.

[jim aka jtigre99]

Mary always stood out to me, besides being the most beautiful[[in my opinion) she looked beyond happy performing her voice was smooth as silk and performed their dance routines in undeniable precision. By the late 60's she was more bubbly and animated[[I always thought it was because the focus was so clearly on Diana Ross that she did this to survive as the earlier 60's even though Ross was the lead it was more a group group and each individuality was highlighted more). Cindy and Mary seemed to vocally and visually blend together more which made the Supremes part in Diana Ross and the Supremes more of a group if Ross was pushed to the forefront,Wilson and Birdsong were bonded together and blended together beautifully which made the combo of Mary and Cindy seem perfect to me. It was much more of a group feeling with them rather than one with a feel of every diva for herself. Mary herself in the Let Yourself Go booklet said this about each grouping [[except for the ones with Lynda & Susaye, as she was speaking more of the Mary, Scherrie & Cindy group). Diane, Florence and I were best friends, and that was one dynamic.When the group was "Diana Ross and the Supremes" that became another dynamic. The new grouping Jean, Cindy and I were a good combination of personalities. We got along very well. Jean was very much perfect for the time because she was not the glamour girl image that we had. She was more of the "black is beautiful" image, which really fit the times, because now the public couldn't say we were homogenized. When it came to Scherrie, Cindy and myself, there were no huge egos; it was perhaps the nicest group.

[marv2]

When asked about Cindy Birdsong and Mary Wilson in late 2017, all Diana Ross says is she doesn't keep in touch with them and she doesn't know where they are.........!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aDipKshlcq4

[BobbyC]

I wish fans wouldn't paint Jean as a "homophobe"--a term I hope never to hear again but I know that's a pipe dream. Maybe Jean just doesn't understand gay people. We should be patient and talk to people like her and then, and only then, will they come around. If they don't, then that's their business. But we should try. Calling people names like homophobe and racist are just making people close down and that's when resentment starts to build.

[midnightman]

I wish fans wouldn't paint Jean as a "homophobe"--a term I hope never to hear again but I know that's a pipe dream. Maybe Jean just doesn't understand gay people. We should be patient and talk to people like her and then, and only then, will they come around. If they don't, then that's their business. But we should try. Calling people names like homophobe and racist are just making people close down and that's when resentment starts to build.

Maybe I was harsh, but I just don't like how people say they don't understand people like us. I get that she may think it's weird but I hope she's not that hateful. Otherwise, she does seem lovely.

[RanRan79]

JT being a homophobe broke my heart. Like I get it: if you're religious, be religious, but don't force your beliefs on me smh

What's the evidence for this? I've seen fans make the accusation over the years in this forum but never a Jean quote or anything of the sort.

[RanRan79]

When asked about Cindy Birdsong and Mary Wilson in late 2017, all Diana Ross says is she doesn't keep in touch with them and she doesn't know where they are.........!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aDipKshlcq4

There's a whole other thread about this in the forum for anyone interested. I said it then and I'll repeat it here: regarding Cindy, Diana was either lying or telling the truth. She knew where Cindy was and lied and said she didn't, or she didn't know where Cindy was. Regarding Mary: she was letting the world know that ship has sailed. Mary is none of Diana Ross' business and she wanted everybody to know it. Good for her.

[marv2]

There's a whole other thread about this in the forum for anyone interested. I said it then and I'll repeat it here: regarding Cindy, Diana was either lying or telling the truth. She knew where Cindy was and lied and said she didn't, or she didn't know where Cindy was. Regarding Mary: she was letting the world know that ship has sailed. Mary is none of Diana Ross' business and she wanted everybody to know it. Good for her.

You're goddamned right! F*ck trashy ass Diana Ross! I don't know anyone with a "name" that would want to be associated with that trash seriously!

[jim aka jtigre99]

Mary was asked in an interview by Vivica A Fox about going to see Diana Ross in concert with her and she said no, that she wouldn't do it because she didn't want to upset Diane. Also, Mary is a much more open person than Diana. Ross is very guarded. I think I read here that Ross did not like the fact that Mary had written about Flo being raped, that she felt that she had never really recovered from that and used alcohol to cover her feelings about that and the mistrust it gave her towards people. I think Mary felt it would be good to explain that about Florence rather than having the population feel she was just someone who was angry and bitter towards Diana Ross becoming a star in her group and that she drank and was "heavy". I think Mary felt by clarifying it made Florence's dilemna more relatable and understandable whereas Ross may have wanted everything to be a secret and private. She may have felt the same about Cindy's health issues, whereas Mary only states Cindy has health issues, she also was involved in the HAL Awards for her health issues. Ross may feel it is private and won't discuss anything about anyone's difficulties. It is two very different personalities dealing with issues in two different ways but I honestly feel that both felt the same way towards both-that they care and want to help-but they go about things very differently.

[marv2]

Mary was asked in an interview by Vivica A Fox about going to see Diana Ross in concert with her and she said no, that she wouldn't do it because she didn't want to upset Diane. Also, Mary is a much more open person than Diana. Ross is very guarded. I think I read here that Ross did not like the fact that Mary had written about Flo being raped, that she felt that she had never really recovered from that and used alcohol to cover her feelings about that and the mistrust it gave her towards people. I think Mary felt it would be good to explain that about Florence rather than having the population feel she was just someone who was angry and bitter towards Diana Ross becoming a star in her group and that she drank and was "heavy". I think Mary felt by clarifying it made Florence's dilemna more relatable and understandable whereas Ross may have wanted everything to be a secret and private. She may have felt the same about Cindy's health issues, whereas Mary only states Cindy has health issues, she also was involved in the HAL Awards for her health issues. Ross may feel it is private and won't discuss anything about anyone's difficulties. It is two very different personalities dealing with issues in two different ways but I honestly feel that both felt the same way towards both-that they care and want to help-but they go about things very differently.


Diana Ross told the public about her mother having TB which hurt her mother's feelings that she would do that.

[RanRan79]

You're goddamned right! F*ck trashy ass Diana Ross! I don't know anyone with a "name" that would want to be associated with that trash seriously!

I can't tell. You post about her in this forum like every other day dude. Sometimes the Rossers spend a helluva lot of time coming for Mary Wilson, and they even come for you. Here lately, they haven't had shit to say about Mary yet you pop up daily or almost daily to spout some shit about Diana. You went so far as to start a thread asking what she's up to these days. But you don't know anyone with a "name" that would want to be associated with that trash? Is that your way of saying that Mary is a no name? She's always talking about reuniting with her "friend". Tee hee hee.

[TYK1986]

Hey stop it all! This is a thread about Jean and not Diana versus Mary. Thanks for respecting that. Maybe Jean had enough of people going on and on about Mary, Diana and how successful the Supremes were before she joined. Both Diana and Jean were good singers in their own right.

We have heard for some years now that Cindy isn't very well so maybe it's for the best that not many people know where she is. She is over 80 now so give her some peace. If she's willing and well enough I'm sure we'll hear from her.

[Circa 1824]

You're goddamned right! F*ck trashy ass Diana Ross! I don't know anyone with a "name" that would want to be associated with that trash seriously!

You seriously have a deep seated problem. Maybe you should take a timeout or go find another blog to join. You are polluting this one.

[Roberta75]

You're goddamned right! F*ck trashy ass Diana Ross! I don't know anyone with a "name" that would want to be associated with that trash seriously!

But you associate yourself with her 24/7 365 days a year. If I loathed someone as you loath Diane Ross id seek medical help. Her security kicked you out of a concert almost 40 darned years ago after telling you repeatedkly to stop taking flash photos and your still Miss Bitter Betty. Get over it and get out o0f this here forum if you cant be civil.

[Roberta75]

Diana Ross told the public about her mother having TB which hurt her mother's feelings that she would do that.

Did Ernestine Ross actually tell you face to face that DianE hurt her feelings. NOPE!!!!!! Get help Hon!!!!!

[midnightman]

What's the evidence for this? I've seen fans make the accusation over the years in this forum but never a Jean quote or anything of the sort.

Good question tbh...

[ralpht]

Got a couple of complaints on this thread. I see its getting a little dicey. However the purpose of the DRATS forum was to get the senseless bickering regarding Diane or the Supremes off the main forums and provide an "anything goes" area. And this is what you have. Leave me out of it.

[Ollie9]

What's the evidence for this? I've seen fans make the accusation over the years in this forum but never a Jean quote or anything of the sort.

I to would be very interested.

[BobbyC]

Midnight I can tell you're a good guy. You have to separate people who hate gay people [[and I haven't met one of those in at least 2 decades) from people who just don't get gay people. We should be patient, is all I'm saying. I was petrified the first time a girl I was dating took me to a gay bar so I can hardly be judgemental. We all start somewhere.

[BobbyC]

RanRan--who is "accusing" Jean Terrell of anything? I have several friends who have known Jean to some degree for years and they all got the same impression--that years ago, Jean was a little weirded out by the gay fan base. I get the impression that she just didn't have any experience with gay guys up until she became a Supreme. That's all. No hatred involved at all. Just lack of experience. Did her religion have anything to do with it? I don't know and I really don't care. She is entitled to her POV, regardless.

[TYK1986]

I've read and heard this once before. It's from an article from 2007. Where the interviewer says that when asking Terrell about her strong gay following she replied:" as long as they like my music, that's all that matters." I don't know if it's the name of the interviewer but the name Ernie Alderete appears on the top of the article. Shine on, Jean Terrell in the Bay Area Reporter.

Other than that I've never heard or am able to find anything either. Being gay I thought it was a bit of a weird answer but it didn't make me dislike her.

[jim aka jtigre99]

Like any discussion this has gone off track. Yes, it is a wonder why Jean was ill and it was right for Mary to wonder if she was really ill or just unhappy or using it to show her importance to the group. Like I said, Jean had a wonderful voice but she lacked Diana's charisma. In my opinion, Florence, Mary, Cindy and Scherrie also had amazing charisma. If we look at chart action on the singles there was initial enthusiasm that started to fade once Motown in 1972 was looking at film more than music. DRATS, who was before Jean joined , did have some #1's like Love Child in 1968 and Someday We'll Be Together in 1969 along with #2's Reflections and I'm Gonna Make You Love Me but they also had spotty chart action in between so comparison to the Jean era show some similarities. Forever Came Today was #28, Somethings You Never Get Used To #30,I'm Livin in Shame #9,The Composer #27,No Matter What Sign You Are #31.
In Comparison when Jean joined there was some good chart action and enthusiasm-Up The Ladder To The Roof #10,Everybody's Got The Right To Love #21,Stoned Love #7, River Deep Mountain High #14, Nathan Jones #16,Touch #71,Floy Joy#16,Automatically Sunshine #37 and when Motown moved to movies in 1972 the cahrt action went like this with Jean-Your Wonderful Sweet Sweet Love #59, I Guess I'll Miss The Man #85 and Bad Weather #87.
So, comparing it to DRATS the chart action was similar with highs for songs that caught on and mid numbers for other songs. It seemed once Motown's attention was elsewhere in 1972 that the numbers went down and this was around the time of Jean's "illness" so it was only natural Mary wondered when it seemed Jean got sick because she was unhappy. The Supremes legacy loomed over her through no fault of her own and the numbers were all over the place during DRATS yet this was the time Ross was pushed so heavily and the entire group had a personae on television and concerts that the audience still enjoyed even if they were no longer rushing to buy their records to make them #1. Jean wanted Lynda & Mary to leave, go somewhere else and rename the group. I am just surprised there was no interest in Terrell as she had taken Ross' place and news media would have had curiosity on that alone. Perhaps, she did grow weary of comparisons and was not being recognized for her own talents. I read one book where they said Terrell had a mind of her own and that in Terrell Gordy had another Ballard. Funny, it took until 1978, 5 years after she left the Supremes to go to A&M and then not promote her own work. I know if she was unhappy and was also ill that it could clearly flare up whenever she was frustrated and unhappy. Plus, Terrell was salaried and I know that probably became something she regretted.

[TYK1986]

In a 1973 interview with Mike Douglas he asks if they, the Supremes, get tired of hearing that the group is not the same without Diana Ross. Watch the video on Youtube. Jean mentioned the word exuberant. She says that good singers just want to stand up and sing and not have to be so exuberant. This gives an indication of how she was thinking.

[midnightman]

Jean may have been "sick" of Motown altogether...

[BobbyC]

We've all taken jobs thinking that job was going to be one thing, and it turned out to be something else altogether. I think this was true for Jean Terrell. Show biz isn't for everybody.

[jim aka jtigre99]

In a 1973 interview with Mike Douglas he asks if they, the Supremes, get tired of hearing that the group is not the same without Diana Ross. Watch the video on Youtube. Jean mentioned the word exuberant. She says that good singers just want to stand up and sing and not have to be so exuberant. This gives an indication of how she was thinking.
Yes, I remember that and she even stated that Diana no longer did that anymore. Flash forward to the next groupings of Supremes during the disco era and all three members were exuberantly choreographed, no matter who was singing lead. I can imagine Jean got very frustrated with the comparisons year after year, even though some mentioned they thought she was a better singer.

[marv2]

Yes, I remember that and she even stated that Diana no longer did that anymore. Flash forward to the next groupings of Supremes during the disco era and all three members were exuberantly choreographed, no matter who was singing lead. I can imagine Jean got very frustrated with the comparisons year after year, even though some mentioned they thought she was a better singer.

She also was better looking.

[midnightman]

Yes, I remember that and she even stated that Diana no longer did that anymore. Flash forward to the next groupings of Supremes during the disco era and all three members were exuberantly choreographed, no matter who was singing lead. I can imagine Jean got very frustrated with the comparisons year after year, even though some mentioned they thought she was a better singer.

Jean was probably gonna leave the group sooner than later anyway. Disco was starting to creep into the mainstream in 1973, the year that she left. If she didn't leave in 1973, she would've left in 1974. As it turned out, her leaving the Supremes in 1973 started a nearly two-year, I wanna say entanglement because of recent events lol, with Motown before they could sign new contracts for Mary and Jean and Lynda's replacements: Scherrie Payne and Cindy Birdsong.

It's sad the Supremes didn't take more of an advantage to present a Black Power front after Stone Love [[I refuse to call it STONED Love).

[midnightman]

We've all taken jobs thinking that job was going to be one thing, and it turned out to be something else altogether. I think this was true for Jean Terrell. Show biz isn't for everybody.

I can imagine that was real true with her. She was more of a traditionalist than her Supremes cohorts and probably thought "nah this ain't for me". I mean, it was due to her strong religious beliefs that her 1978 A&M debut didn't go anywhere.

[RanRan79]

RanRan--who is "accusing" Jean Terrell of anything?

If you read through the thread you will see that the accusation of "homophobe" has been leveled at Jean. She's been accused and I asked for sources. Waiting...

[RanRan79]

I've read and heard this once before. It's from an article from 2007. Where the interviewer says that when asking Terrell about her strong gay following she replied:" as long as they like my music, that's all that matters." I don't know if it's the name of the interviewer but the name Ernie Alderete appears on the top of the article. Shine on, Jean Terrell in the Bay Area Reporter.

Other than that I've never heard or am able to find anything either. Being gay I thought it was a bit of a weird answer but it didn't make me dislike her.

Yeah, I'm not seeing the problem with the response. I thought there was some instance where she said something like she doesn't like gay people, or she doesn't want gay people at her shows or buying her music or...

[midnightman]

If that's all she said, then I apologize to her for ASSuming things. She's back up on my list of favorite Supremes.

[Ollie9]

Yeah, I'm not seeing the problem with the response. I thought there was some instance where she said something like she doesn't like gay people, or she doesn't want gay people at her shows or buying her music or...

I must say that’s what I was thinking myself. It does come across as an odd response, but not really compelling enough evidence to pin a homophobe label on her.

[TYK1986]

Off topic but seeing mignightman refusing to call it stoned love I wonder why they made such a big deal of it in the 70's. In 1968 the 5th Dimension released Stoned Soul Picnic which went to number 3 and haven's seen or heard of any problems with that song when it was released. I'm from the 80's so don't know if the meaning of the word had such a change in negativity from 1968 to 1970.

[sup_fan]

Off topic but seeing mignightman refusing to call it stoned love I wonder why they made such a big deal of it in the 70's. In 1968 the 5th Dimension released Stoned Soul Picnic which went to number 3 and haven's seen or heard of any problems with that song when it was released. I'm from the 80's so don't know if the meaning of the word had such a change in negativity from 1968 to 1970.

What i want to know is why did they continue to use the typo in every single printing of every record label sticker and every album track listing.

nowhere in the song itself do they sing "stoned." it is always "stone"

[BobbyC]

Tyk--back before 1968 or so, getting "stoned" meant getting drunk. Weed, acid, etc hadn't really hit the mainstream yet. By the following year, everything changed as drugs became common with hippies, spreading to the wider population as time went on. It really was amazing how fast it happened, looking back. I'm of the 70's and saw my first concerts, Heart and then Rufus/Chaka, during that time. People openly smoked weed in the various venues--it was shocking to me at the time! My generation kind of rebelled against the hippie thing and drugs were not on the menu! Well, not for years, anyway. In the 70's, "stoned" meant drugs, and drunk meant alcohol.

[RanRan79]

Jean was probably gonna leave the group sooner than later anyway. Disco was starting to creep into the mainstream in 1973, the year that she left. If she didn't leave in 1973, she would've left in 1974. As it turned out, her leaving the Supremes in 1973 started a nearly two-year, I wanna say entanglement because of recent events lol, with Motown before they could sign new contracts for Mary and Jean and Lynda's replacements: Scherrie Payne and Cindy Birdsong.

It's sad the Supremes didn't take more of an advantage to present a Black Power front after Stone Love [[I refuse to call it STONED Love).

The public wasn't going to buy a radical Supremes. But it's interesting to ponder what kind of life they would've had if they released a bunch of message songs, like "Stoned Love". The Tempts obviously had great success with this direction. Someone mentioned Norman Whitfield producing the Supremes. I wonder if the opportunity was even presented to Norman. It may have paid off in a big way, allowing the Jean led group to step outside the shadow of the Diana led group, if at all possible. While I don't think Jean, or Mary and Cindy for that matter, would've been a good match for some of Norman's rougher sounds, I do think he could've tailored his style to fit the more sophisticated soul that the Supremes were identified with. Think New Ways But Love Stays on a whole other level.

As it was, the grouping's first three singles fit the message genre. Then comes "River Deep" which has a harder sound than what we usually got from the group. "Nathan Jones" is next. It's not a message song, but there's an element of psychedelia. It's too smooth to be a Whitfield job, but I can hear some influence on the track. "Gott Have Love" is a message cut, but it somehow misses the mark. I like the song, but have often joined the chorus of it was a wrong choice of single. I kind of still think that, however, I wonder if the reason it performed so badly is because of lack of promotion. Maybe it would've sounded better as a Jean solo? Whatever the case, it ultimately was a misstep. Then comes "Touch". I wonder if the group would've rebounded with another message cut. What if the Supremes had "Smiling Faces" instead of the Undisputed Truth. Jean doing most of the lead, Mary coming in a bit. Still a hit?

[RanRan79]

Jean was probably gonna leave the group sooner than later anyway. Disco was starting to creep into the mainstream in 1973, the year that she left. If she didn't leave in 1973, she would've left in 1974. As it turned out, her leaving the Supremes in 1973 started a nearly two-year, I wanna say entanglement because of recent events lol, with Motown before they could sign new contracts for Mary and Jean and Lynda's replacements: Scherrie Payne and Cindy Birdsong.


I think Jean had enough of the group thing because I wonder to myself why Jean wouldn't just get with Lynda and find a third lady, if Mary was adamant that she would never leave Motown, after leaving Motown. JML had all the factors that I believe would have made them a perfect group for the mid to late 70s. Remove Mary, replace with someone in her vocal range, and I think Jean and Lynda would have finally found a formula for success. [[And of course a label's full support and paired with a fantastic writer/producer[[s).)

[midnightman]

Off topic but seeing mignightman refusing to call it stoned love I wonder why they made such a big deal of it in the 70's. In 1968 the 5th Dimension released Stoned Soul Picnic which went to number 3 and haven's seen or heard of any problems with that song when it was released. I'm from the 80's so don't know if the meaning of the word had such a change in negativity from 1968 to 1970.

As sup fan pointed out, the lyrics said "Stone Love", Motown made the mistake of adding "d" at the end and therefore possibly killed any momentum the song hoped to have since some may have thought the Supremes were talking about smoking weed [["Cloud Nine" had the same problem but they managed to make number one and win Motown's first-ever Grammy).

[midnightman]

The public wasn't going to buy a radical Supremes. But it's interesting to ponder what kind of life they would've had if they released a bunch of message songs, like "Stoned Love". The Tempts obviously had great success with this direction. Someone mentioned Norman Whitfield producing the Supremes. I wonder if the opportunity was even presented to Norman. It may have paid off in a big way, allowing the Jean led group to step outside the shadow of the Diana led group, if at all possible. While I don't think Jean, or Mary and Cindy for that matter, would've been a good match for some of Norman's rougher sounds, I do think he could've tailored his style to fit the more sophisticated soul that the Supremes were identified with. Think New Ways But Love Stays on a whole other level.

As it was, the grouping's first three singles fit the message genre. Then comes "River Deep" which has a harder sound than what we usually got from the group. "Nathan Jones" is next. It's not a message song, but there's an element of psychedelia. It's too smooth to be a Whitfield job, but I can hear some influence on the track. "Gott Have Love" is a message cut, but it somehow misses the mark. I like the song, but have often joined the chorus of it was a wrong choice of single. I kind of still think that, however, I wonder if the reason it performed so badly is because of lack of promotion. Maybe it would've sounded better as a Jean solo? Whatever the case, it ultimately was a misstep. Then comes "Touch". I wonder if the group would've rebounded with another message cut. What if the Supremes had "Smiling Faces" instead of the Undisputed Truth. Jean doing most of the lead, Mary coming in a bit. Still a hit?

I could actually the JMC lineup having a hit with Smiling Faces. Mary and Jean singing together. Would've gave Mary the confidence to find her voice as a lead singer sooner than she did.

Norman gave "The Nitty Gritty" to the Supremes during their DRATS phase and from what I heard, Motown wanted to release it but Bubba Knight stopped that, saying "you should give it to us". As soon as Motown heard the Gladys Knight and the Pips' version, the Supremes' version was suddenly put on the back burner.

[RanRan79]

I could actually the JMC lineup having a hit with Smiling Faces. Mary and Jean singing together. Would've gave Mary the confidence to find her voice as a lead singer sooner than she did.

Norman gave "The Nitty Gritty" to the Supremes during their DRATS phase and from what I heard, Motown wanted to release it but Bubba Knight stopped that, saying "you should give it to us". As soon as Motown heard the Gladys Knight and the Pips' version, the Supremes' version was suddenly put on the back burner.

Norman also did "Exception to the Rule" on the group back in 63/64. "Nitty" didn't fit Diana. That was definitely more Gladys' territory.

I agree about "Smiling Faces". "Touch" apparently didn't do the group any favors, but I wonder if "Floy Joy" becoming a hit helped Mary's confidence. That vocal she did on "Can't Take My Eyes Off You" from the Japan live album in 73, she was on fire. It was like that thing had finally woken up.

[sup_fan]

if anyone is looking for a smooth, sexy, silky sound from Norman, just look at Just My Imagination.

I think Frank was the perfect choice for doing the Sups post Diana. it re-established a group sound. and the evolution of that sound was exciting. Right On is an excellent lp. there are some hints towards the girls being these "ethereal sisters of love" with the layered vocals, echo, harmonies and the peace/love themes. But it also contains a bunhc of just solid pop/r&b tunes.

with New ways, you ALMOST have a perfect rock/opera album focused on this theme of peace, god and a higher ideal. just swapping out a song or two on Side B and the title/cover issue and you could have had a mega hit. it would have visually looked incredible on store shelves. the music, the production, etc - all stellar.

the duets really damaged the perception of the group IMO. River was an excellent single but the lp was too MOR. Nathan was excellent but too close to NWBLS and should have been held for a later release

Had Nathan and the Touch lp been the mega hits they deserved to be, then you get a big question - what next? What would Frank have done next with them? we have Tears Left Over which is a good song but not nearly as innovative as SL or NJ. would some of the Eddie Kendricks sound and tunes have found their way to the girls? If Frank had continued with the hits with the girls, odds are they wouldn't have shifted to another producer

Would this have been the time to have Norman come in? Given the gorgeousness of Imagination, i wonder what lush and sensual sound he might have come up with?

[RanRan79]

Great point about "Just My Imagination".

Regarding Frank Wilson, I would love if he had done something like Eddie's "If You Let Me" on the girls. I would hope that kind of direction would've been next.

I think if Norman were going to come in, it would've been at the beginning. Stevie coming in when he did seems like a logical step though.

[jim aka jtigre99]

Hmm, Frank Wilson had the higher ideal/World Peace and Love concept with Up The Ladder and Stoned Love. Smokey reverted to the bouncy, sweet pop sound with Floy Joy and Automatically Sunshine. Bouncing from Frank Wilson to Smokey Robinson and then to Jimmy Webb as an "experiment", wonder if Stevie Wonder was the next logical choice. I wonder if there was someone at Motown who could make Jean happy and artistically fulfilled? Really, would Stevie's experimentation have made Jean happy and artistically fulfilled? Would Marvin Gaye been a good choice for her, assuming he could have been able to? I know that the latter Supremes and Mary approached him but he had too much going on himself to take the Supremes on, from what I have read. Mary said she had a meeting with Ewart and he floated some prospects including some Philly International names. I think, as Mary stated, that Jean felt that as a Cinderella her coach turned into a pumpkin halfway to the ball. Surely, Motown could see her talent but in terms of dealing with Motown execs did Jean do herself any favors by being so outspoken and with the whole Copa drama?

[RanRan79]

Stevie does seem the next logical choice. But it's intriguing to me that the Supremes even took on Smokey in the first place. Not that I'm complaining, because Floy Joy is one of my absolute favorite Supremes albums period, but with Frank the group had 5 big hit singles [[one of which was with the Tops) and two flops [[one of which was with the Tops) in approximately a year and a half. That is not success to sneeze at. So the question is who made the decision to divorce the Supremes and Frank Wilson and pair them with Smokey, and why? It's seems such an odd decision to make when looking at the pairing of Supremes with Frank. I would have kept the relationship going. Maybe if the next project between the two had failed it may have been time to consider the well running dry and parting ways, but this seems so early in the game.

I had never thought about it before, but Smokey does sort of return the ladies to the roots of the Supremes. I wouldn't say there was anything particularly innovative about the FJ set. In fact, for me, one of the selling points is that the songs aren't doing too much. It's really a nice, mellow album. But did the ladies need that at this point or would it have been better for the intensity of their music to increase? I guess ultimately there isn't much to argue against here because they did score a big hit out of it.

Jimmy Webb was just an all around mistake. It's the album that should have never been. Just wrong, wrong, wrong. And it's not that it's a bad album. I like at least half the songs on it, but it was the wrong move career wise for the group. If Smokey wasn't going to do the follow up to Floy Joy, Stevie should've entered the picture at this point, or return the ladies to Frank for another go.

[sup_fan]

i agree Ran. i love the Frank Wilson albums but found Floy Joy a refreshing change. Frank's work was big - big productions, layered vocals. So smokey brought a clean, light sound. i think if Cindy had stayed in the group and 1) they had been able to really promote it with tv appearances and more and 2) if they'd played up more of the tie in with Smokey, Auto Sun would have done much better

in chatting with some fans, it did extremely well in certain markets. it went Top 10 or even 1 in markets like Chicago, DC, LA. But oddly enough, it didn't do a thing in Detroit. Maybe had the group been able to focus on it and promote it rather than jean's illness and training Lynda.

i'm not totally against the idea of the Jimmy Webb project. i think there was definite potential. but some incredibly bad decisions on the part of Jimmy. frankly he approached it as if he was producing a solo album for jean and not thinking about working with a group. I sort of feel that way with Bad Weather too.

[gman]

did Smokey have any fairly recent big hit production ties with others? Maybe giving the Supremes LP to him was to remind people he was a competent producer....The Webb LP suffers from too many unfamiliar songs...there is not one general public / common knowledge Webb composition included. And the use of "The Mormon Taberancle Chior"???....this was a project with so much great potential there. A wasted opportunity to put together a wonderful modern composer songbook LP

[blackguy69]

The last big hit that Smokey produced prior to FJ was I Don’t Blame You At All.

did Smokey have any fairly recent big hit production ties with others? Maybe giving the Supremes LP to him was to remind people he was a competent producer....The Webb LP suffers from too many unfamiliar songs...there is not one general public / common knowledge Webb composition included. And the use of "The Mormon Taberancle Chior"???....this was a project with so much great potential there. A wasted opportunity to put together a wonderful modern composer songbook LP

[sup_fan]

no neither he nor the Miracles had major hits in 71. Tears of Clown was released in Sept 70 in the US, which was a giant hit. so it was a little over a year later that Floy Joy single was released. But i think people still certainly knew him as a producer and performer. the Smokey tv special aired in Dec 70.

he left the Miracles in early summer 72

The girls did Floy Joy on Merv in Jan 72. They did it a year later in March 73 on Soul Train. but were there any other tv appearances? On Merv it would have been fun to have them talk with Merv about working w Smokey and they do a medley. Maybe include My Guy, Don't Mess With Bill, Second that emotion, tracks of my tears, tears of a clown.

and in their shows, they should have acknowledged it too. get the word out there

[sup_fan]

when JMC did FJ on Merv in Jan 72, i don't have the group doing any more tv appearances until the Dick Caveat and David Frost shows with MJL in June. but they were already talking about working with Jimmy Webb in the audio and they performed Tossin and Turning. oddly enough they didn't do Auto Sunshine or any of the smokey material

[blackguy69]

I Don't Blame You At All" was the group's final big hit with Robinson, it reached the Top 20 in the spring of 1971 [[#18) and the the R&B top 10 [[#7).
no neither he nor the Miracles had major hits in 71. Tears of Clown was released in Sept 70 in the US, which was a giant hit. so it was a little over a year later that Floy Joy single was released. But i think people still certainly knew him as a producer and performer. the Smokey tv special aired in Dec 70.

he left the Miracles in early summer 72

The girls did Floy Joy on Merv in Jan 72. They did it a year later in March 73 on Soul Train. but were there any other tv appearances? On Merv it would have been fun to have them talk with Merv about working w Smokey and they do a medley. Maybe include My Guy, Don't Mess With Bill, Second that emotion, tracks of my tears, tears of a clown.

and in their shows, they should have acknowledged it too. get the word out there

[RanRan79]

i'm not totally against the idea of the Jimmy Webb project. i think there was definite potential. but some incredibly bad decisions on the part of Jimmy. frankly he approached it as if he was producing a solo album for jean and not thinking about working with a group. I sort of feel that way with Bad Weather too.

It makes no sense why "Floy Joy" and "Automatically Sunshine" were not promoted more via television. "Floy Joy" did great nationally, obviously, with the limited appearances, so one has to wonder how much better might it have done, especially pop, as it went top 5 r&b, had it had a bit more TV exposure. I don't know what the hell happened with "Automatically". Pulling in great numbers in major markets should have extended to the smaller ones. To my ears it was definitely a ready made hit. The "Happy Together" similarity made it fit in with the throwback market that was producing hits at the time. This should have kept the hit streak going.

Artistically, pairing the Supremes with Jimmy Webb should not be cause for alarm. But at this point in their career, I don't think there was room for such out of the box experimentation. The Supremes needed big hits, and as recorded, nothing on the JW album was going to do it, even though there are some fantastic cuts to be found on it. If I were going to put my money on any one song it would've probably been "5:30 Plane", but I still wouldn't be convinced that it would have been a surefire hit. Plus I think any single from this album would have lost the girls their r&b market, which from "Lovelight" through the end of the group, was the foundation of their success. Remove their Black support, both fans and radio, especially during the 70s, and the Supremes are basically extinct. Jimmy Webb would not have won that crowd over, even with Jean tearing it up on some of those songs.

Obviously Jimmy did not respect the Supremes as a group. I think it's a travesty that the Blossoms were brought in, especially knowing that Jean, Mary and Lynda together were a powerhouse group. "Tossin and Turnin" is the one cut on the album that I do think lead and backup were given equal shine. Sup you've made the same critique of Stevie before, but on that one I disagree. I think Mary and Lynda were given equal shine on "Bad Weather" to Jean's lead. They are an integral part of the song. They also are on full display on "I'll Wait a Lifetime". "Soft Days" sounds like a demo to me, so I don't think it's fair to judge that one. And until the other songs from the sessions see the light of day, I don't think there's enough to go on to suggest that Stevie viewed the group as more of Jean and less Supremes, in the way that Jimmy Webb obviously did.

[BobbyC]

I never liked the Floy Joy album, with the exception of A Heart Like Mine, which I loved and still love. FJ to me was too light, too adult oriented. I prefer harder stuff like Stoned Love or Driving Wheel. Jimmy Webb was better IMO but it still had a bunch of very weak songs, like Tossin' Turning, Once in the Morning, Cheap Lovin', and that abyssmal song they sang on Sonny and Cher. I like Jimmy Webb usually, especially on Earthbound [[5th Dimension)--but those horns at the beginning of All I Want were so derivative of his earlier work.

[sup_fan]

i do at least understand that they were going for a pop sound with a popular singer/songwriter. Jimmy had had a lot of success as had others like Carole King, Joni Mitchell, James Taylor, Laura Nero, Paul Simon. Their sound was mature, interesting, cerebral. And very much on trend in 1972

So the concept of bringing in one of these artists, is actually IMO brilliant. the execution though was terrible

Floy Joy single and album both did fairly well on the charts. the single was gold and performed strongly - though i agree it could have gone a bit higher on the pop charts. And the lp did better than any since Right On. Again had they properly promoted it in the winter and spring of 71/72, it probably would have done better. Auto Sun should have gone much higher and had much more exposure.

this stronger chart performance would probably have set the stage for a more receptive audience to something as experimental as collaborating with an outside producer. it's just that i think the one they picked what about the project 100% wrong. I still love the idea of Carole King working with the group. that would be my very first choice. she was so hot at the time and a woman producer working with the surpemes seems perfect.

with jimmy, i agree that the additional vocalists were all wrong, the song choice was uninspired. Frankly i'm sort of shocked they bothered to release the lp at all. I Guess I'll Miss was released in Sept and did absolutely nothing on the charts. given that auspicious start, you'd think someone at the company would have said "hmmmm maybe we should dump this mess" and start over with the Stevie material

[RanRan79]

Not to mention "Guess" wasn't even a JW production! Yeah, I'm with you at being surprised the project wasn't scrapped eventually.

Carole King's work had a soulfulness about it that I think would've translated well to the Supremes and given them music that would not have alienated most fans. [[Oh how I would've loved to hear Jean's take on "I Feel the Earth Move"!) But straying too far outside of what the group was known for would have been the fatal nail. The JW album nearly did just that. The theory has been bounded about the forum that part of "Bad Weather"'s lack of success was because people officially tuned out when "Guess" and then JW flopped hard. Smokey was a singer/songwriter. Stevie was a singer/songwriter. Hell, Marvin was a singer/songwriter. Why the Supremes, or anyone in their camp, or anyone at Motown would search so far to the extreme as a Jimmy Webb, boggles my mind.

I will say that I think Jean's voice lends itself well to the Supremes doing some experimentation. That's why I think, had it been completed, the Stevie produced album would have been at least artistically speaking fantastic, if not a commercial success. He was really stepping his game up around this time artistically, and was only about to get better. The Supremes could have been a part of that. Syreeta's Stevie album came out the following year. I'm not a fan of Syreeta's voice [[although it's actually starting to grow on me), but I've held her 1974 album in the highest esteem since acquiring it more than a decade ago. I have to wonder how many of those songs might have been given to the Supremes first.

[BobbyC]

Jean one time said of all the records she did with the Supremes, she liked the Jimmy Webb project best because Jimmy wanted to hear their feedback and Ideas. I think I already posted this a while ago, but Jean had her brother deliver a note to him saying he should not force Jean to sing in a key too high for her. I agreed with that, Jean sounds screechy on a few of the songs IMO. I recently read Webb's autobio, and picked out a few things that were interesting. One, he said he just wasn't getting the right vocals from The Supremes, so he hired Darlene Love and others to fill out the backgrounds. Jimmy said it was the best the "Supremes" ever sounded but admitted that the record didn't sound like the Supremes. I thought these were kind of harsh things to say but there ya go. I also noticed in LaMonte McLemore's book, LaMonte said the 5th never, EVER had any additional vocalists on their records. But I recall reading on the liner notes for Earthbound that a Jim Gilstrap [[sp) was a guest vocalist on the album. It could be that Jim was added without the group knowing it, but it is hard for me to imagine what he could add that the various members couldn't.

[sup_fan]

Not to mention "Guess" wasn't even a JW production! Yeah, I'm with you at being surprised the project wasn't scrapped eventually.

Carole King's work had a soulfulness about it that I think would've translated well to the Supremes and given them music that would not have alienated most fans. [[Oh how I would've loved to hear Jean's take on "I Feel the Earth Move"!) But straying too far outside of what the group was known for would have been the fatal nail. The JW album nearly did just that. The theory has been bounded about the forum that part of "Bad Weather"'s lack of success was because people officially tuned out when "Guess" and then JW flopped hard. Smokey was a singer/songwriter. Stevie was a singer/songwriter. Hell, Marvin was a singer/songwriter. Why the Supremes, or anyone in their camp, or anyone at Motown would search so far to the extreme as a Jimmy Webb, boggles my mind.

I will say that I think Jean's voice lends itself well to the Supremes doing some experimentation. That's why I think, had it been completed, the Stevie produced album would have been at least artistically speaking fantastic, if not a commercial success. He was really stepping his game up around this time artistically, and was only about to get better. The Supremes could have been a part of that. Syreeta's Stevie album came out the following year. I'm not a fan of Syreeta's voice [[although it's actually starting to grow on me), but I've held her 1974 album in the highest esteem since acquiring it more than a decade ago. I have to wonder how many of those songs might have been given to the Supremes first.

i don't know that working with Jimmy was totally out of left field. the 5th D had sung a bunch of his songs on their albums, although he didn't produce them. He had also worked at motown briefly before and did produce the stunning album Sunshower with Thelma Houston. so he definitely had some work on his resume that would have made him a reasonable choice.

Many of these singer/songwriters had a more mellow, earthier sound and approach. the lyrics of King, Simon, Webb, Mitchell and all are much more introspective and even somewhat abstract. Far different from the straight-forwardness of HDH or even Smokey's poetic nature. frank wilson at least moved into more complex songs with their themes of god and nature. But this was all in vogue at the time. These were more "Serious" artists

Also we nearly got Bones Howe and Laura Nero for Diana's debut. so when they were looking at what to do to win the public over again with the Supremes, this isn't totally crazy

again, i think it was the execution not the initial idea that was the problem

[sup_fan]

Jean one time said of all the records she did with the Supremes, she liked the Jimmy Webb project best because Jimmy wanted to hear their feedback and Ideas. I think I already posted this a while ago, but Jean had her brother deliver a note to him saying he should not force Jean to sing in a key too high for her. I agreed with that, Jean sounds screechy on a few of the songs IMO. I recently read Webb's autobio, and picked out a few things that were interesting. One, he said he just wasn't getting the right vocals from The Supremes, so he hired Darlene Love and others to fill out the backgrounds. Jimmy said it was the best the "Supremes" ever sounded but admitted that the record didn't sound like the Supremes. I thought these were kind of harsh things to say but there ya go. I also noticed in LaMonte McLemore's book, LaMonte said the 5th never, EVER had any additional vocalists on their records. But I recall reading on the liner notes for Earthbound that a Jim Gilstrap [[sp) was a guest vocalist on the album. It could be that Jim was added without the group knowing it, but it is hard for me to imagine what he could add that the various members couldn't.

part of the job of the producer is to know and understand who you are producing for. that includes understanding their vocal range, their strengths, their weaknesses. Sometimes a song just won't sound good in a certain key so you have to record it as such. but then if that key simply won't work for the singer, frankly you need to ditch that song then and find another.

IMO Jimmy just didn't do his homework well enough to understand who and what he was working with. the group had long since been known for smooth, beautiful singing. you can't simply ditch everything from the past - as a guest producer you need to take what there and build on it through your vision.

Some of the songs are ok enough but not really very special. he used quite a few older cover songs - Tossin, Paradise from the Spector groups like the Ronettes and ShangriLas. Silent Voices was off an old Dionne Warwick album. Joni Mitchell's all i want.

[BobbyC]

Sup_fan-I think Jimmy Webb was not a wise choice. People didn't like Jimmy Webb for whatever reason. Even today, MacArthur Park is still voted as one of the worst songs of all time even though everybody and their mamma recorded it. I had friends growing up who were almost angry with me for liking that song.The era of singer/songwriter was on its way in with people like Stevie and Marvin. People wanted from-the- heart messages in their music. They didn't want a group singing someone else's words and music. This change led to the self contained groups who wrote their own material, Rufus, Labelle, Commodores etc. By 1972 Jimmy Webb was on the descent--again, evidence of Motown's indifference towards these new Supremes. in 1974, when the 5th's Jimmy album Earthbound hit the stores, it bombed.LaMonte said his problem with Earthbound was that it didn't sound like anything else on the radio and hence never fit any format. I personally loved the album, but it was not successful. By then, Up Up and Away was already almost a decade in the rear view mirror and nobody cared about the reunion of Webb and the 5th.

[sup_fan]

Bobby - i don't disagree that other choices might have been more successful. That's why i think the Carole King idea would have been magic. she had a MEGA album with Tapestry.
She had a more feminist viewpoint and the Sups had started to explore that a bit with Jean. with all of the Diana tracks you have her pleading with her man but Jean was telling the dog Nathan to go jump in a lake! lolol

so i think there were definitely other options that would have worked better

but i don't think the decision to pick Jimmy was completely without some rationale. it wasn't as if they just randomly picked his name out of a hat. Also he had his album at the time Letters was critically well received. It also includes the songs Once in the Morning and When Can Brown Begin. and Joni Mitchell collaborates on it too.

[RanRan79]

i don't know that working with Jimmy was totally out of left field. the 5th D had sung a bunch of his songs on their albums, although he didn't produce them. He had also worked at motown briefly before and did produce the stunning album Sunshower with Thelma Houston. so he definitely had some work on his resume that would have made him a reasonable choice.

Many of these singer/songwriters had a more mellow, earthier sound and approach. the lyrics of King, Simon, Webb, Mitchell and all are much more introspective and even somewhat abstract. Far different from the straight-forwardness of HDH or even Smokey's poetic nature. frank wilson at least moved into more complex songs with their themes of god and nature. But this was all in vogue at the time. These were more "Serious" artists

Also we nearly got Bones Howe and Laura Nero for Diana's debut. so when they were looking at what to do to win the public over again with the Supremes, this isn't totally crazy

again, i think it was the execution not the initial idea that was the problem

Jimmy Webb was great at what he did. There's no questioning that. Had he produced Thelma at Motown in 1972, makes sense because she had already had a great album under his direction, and sang that type of music. The Supremes were not known for what Jimmy gave them. They would have lost a chunk of their audience doing his music. It's my understanding that Gordy's decision to nix the initial Bones Howe collaboration in favor of Val and Nick was because he saw the situation in the same way: Diana would've lost a portion of her audience and she couldn't risk that, not that early in her career. In 1972/73 the Supremes needed hits that were going to put them back in their rightful place as the reigning princesses of pop and soul. Jimmy Webb had no presence on the r&b singles chart as far as I can tell, up to that point at least. Even Bones had managed to score on the chart. Pop radio would often accept music that was bone deep r&b. R&B radio rarely- if ever- played the type of music Jimmy brought to the table. So artistically, I can't argue against your position, especially after the beautiful job Jimmy did with Thelma's Sunshower album. But Mary, Jean and Lynda had bills to pay and families to support and thus needed big hit singles that resonated with the public. I don't believe Jimmy was capable of producing that. Best case scenario was if he gave the group an album that sold well but produced no hit singles. Worst case scenario...well, may I present to you The Supremes Produced and Arranged By Jimmy Webb.:p

[RanRan79]

Btw, how refreshing is it to be talking the music right now instead of who did what to whom? I'm enjoying this.

[BobbyC]

Hi Ran Ran. I really enjoy most of Jimmy Webb's work, I really do. But you put it in perspective when you wrote that the Supremes needed hit singles, and Jimmy wasn't really known for that--with some exceptions. After Up Up and Away, Jimmy produced the 5th's second album--The Magic Garden. There were no hit singles on it. Sunshower no hit singles. The Supremes, no hit singles. Yes he had a string of hits with Glenn Campbell, but that didn't last long. Jimmy Webb is a concept album guy. Even so, he had a tendency to pick out some flat out stupid songs for his concept albums--songs like Walk Your Feet in the Sunshine, Paper Cup and Carpet Man.Why cover Tossin' and Turning? That song IMO was just mediocre at best and in no way should have been a single, which it was in the UK. The Supremes needed a fresh new sound--they didn't need to be recording relics of the past that were ancient history. I think Hollands/Beatty understood this, and that's how we got High Energy and MS&S. Those albums had disco cuts--but they were disco when disco was beautiful music, like Barry White's lush, orchestrated dance music. In just a year or two disco got gimmicky and formulaic and it lost me completely. If I could go back in time and pick a producer for the Supremes, it would have been Barry White. Second, maybe Lionel Richie or Maurice White--but they are a distant second behind Barry White.
Carole King? Hmmm--I'd have to think on that. Again, however, popular as King was in the very early 70's, she was of the old school. I'd still go with Barry White. I think he could have captured Mary's voice, in particular, very well.

Glad you are liking this thread. It's kind of all over the place but who cares! Hee hee!

[Ollie9]

Hi Ran Ran. I really enjoy most of Jimmy Webb's work, I really do. But you put it in perspective when you wrote that the Supremes needed hit singles, and Jimmy wasn't really known for that--with some exceptions. After Up Up and Away, Jimmy produced the 5th's second album--The Magic Garden. There were no hit singles on it. Sunshower no hit singles. The Supremes, no hit singles. Yes he had a string of hits with Glenn Campbell, but that didn't last long. Jimmy Webb is a concept album guy. Even so, he had a tendency to pick out some flat out stupid songs for his concept albums--songs like Walk Your Feet in the Sunshine, Paper Cup and Carpet Man.Why cover Tossin' and Turning? That song IMO was just mediocre at best and in no way should have been a single, which it was in the UK. The Supremes needed a fresh new sound--they didn't need to be recording relics of the past that were ancient history. I think Hollands/Beatty understood this, and that's how we got High Energy and MS&S. Those albums had disco cuts--but they were disco when disco was beautiful music, like Barry White's lush, orchestrated dance music. In just a year or two disco got gimmicky and formulaic and it lost me completely. If I could go back in time and pick a producer for the Supremes, it would have been Barry White. Second, maybe Lionel Richie or Maurice White--but they are a distant second behind Barry White.
Carole King? Hmmm--I'd have to think on that. Again, however, popular as King was in the very early 70's, she was of the old school. I'd still go with Barry White. I think he could have captured Mary's voice, in particular, very well.

Glad you are liking this thread. It's kind of all over the place but who cares! Hee hee!

Barry had his Love Unlimited so cannot imagine that he would have been in the least bit interested in producing the Supremes..
What a perfect combination that might have been though. The perfect follow up to FJ. Lush arrangements with great pop hooks. I can almost hear it already. Agree with RanRan in that Produced and Arranged by Jimmie Webb was possibly, make that probably the worst case scenario.

[sup_fan]

enjoying this thread too!


i think the Supremes were more pop than r&b. look at their chart performance - so many more #1 and top ten pop hits versus r&b. it's not that they didn't have a strong black or r&b base. But the majority of their work was definitely more more "white" than "black"

As compared to MRATV or the Temps. both of those groups were more r&b with some pop overtones. so if Jimmy was going to work with anyone at motown, it would have been Diana or the Sups.

by mid 72, the group was definitely struggling. FJ had been a bit of a rebound but a #16 hit isn't a "mega hit". sure it was one of the stronger performing 70s singles but they were needing something much bigger. The frank wilson worked at first but then tapered off. And his albums struggled. the duets didn't do much. the Smokey work with somewhat successful. So management was trying to figure out what to do next.

it was a gamble for sure and i think there were possibilities for this approach to succeed. Again if they used a stronger singer/songwriter such as Carole King. or if Jimmy had taken a MUCH different approach it could have worked.

I do also like the idea of Barry White coming in and doing his Love Unlimited approach with the girls. LU was strong for a while but the group didn't have massive or long-term chart success. Perhaps combining his work and sound with a more established group like the Sups could have made a difference

[sup_fan]

what are people's thoughts on Marvin producing the MJL lineup?

for motown to outside of their producers was quite a surprise.

in 72, Marvin was working on Troubled Man soundtrack. frankly i've never been all that much of a fan of that score and maybe working with the Sups would have been a more fruitful project

[BobbyC]

Ollie--that's what I'm saying. Barry White never fell into the gimmicky disco trap--he was always classy and his style was perfect for the Supremes going into a new musical space. I agree that he probably wouldn't have been interested but I was talking best case scenario.

[BobbyC]

Sup_fan, no I don't think Gaye would have been a good choice. After 1972, his singles chart action was tapering out. In some ways I think Marvin was trapped by the success of What's Going On. How do you compete with that. Marvin was not Stevie Wonder who seemed to crank out hit after hit after hit, along with milestone albums like Innervisions and Songs in the Key of Life. Stevie was diversified but Marvin was not. That being said, why does Marvin need other people to sing his material? He didn't. Stevie was an amazing songwriter but his songs always lent themselves to other people singing them. Susaye sang Knocks Me Off My Feet and nobody said she was trying to copy Stevie. But what if Susaye tried to do What's Going On? I don't think that would work.

[jim aka jtigre99]

I have to say, I am not sure that Marvin Gaye would have been a good choice for the Supremes as a producer. I found the Jimmy Webb project an interesting experiment but really only loved I Keep It Hid. Frank Wilson truly had evolved a great sound with the group but I read they were all disappointed with the chart showings with Right On hitting a solid #25 but New Ways only going to #68 and Touch to #85. I agree that initially Floy Joy as an album felt too light and bouncy to me after such strong vocals on Touch, although I loved hearing Mary Wilson lead or co-lead on a number of tracks and singles on it. With it hitting #54, it was a higher charting album than New Ways was even though New Ways had the top 10 hit on it. I did not care for how screechy Jean sounded on Jimmy Webb, so I am glad to hear that she did stand up and say that vocally those notes were not in her range and a producer who is producing the best of what the group had to offer would have heeded that and also not brought in a chorus of singers for the backgrounds. Stevie may have been able to do something with Jean, but I do wonder if his ideas would have progressed the group further or alienated the fans who were locked into a certain sound for the group. I liked Bad Weather quite a bit, thought it was a great progression in sound but lacked a sound and lyrics to really catch onto in hindsight. Carole King would have been very interesting. I have to say I totally enjoyed the Holland Brothers work on High Energy [[#42) and if you notice the sounds on High Energy are different because they were working with Mary,Scherrie & Cindy with Susaye overdubbed for a lead and adlibs. Their last attempt with MS&S was great but the sound was so different because of the line up and their approach to the music was different and more progressive. Norman Whitfield may or may not have been a good idea. I am unsure. What do you think of another Smokey produced effort? I doubt if Motown would have assigned Ashford & Simpson to the Supremes since they were so linked to Diana Ross. I also do wonder if Floy Joy would have done better with more television exposure and Automatically Sunshine virtually had one yet they hit the top 20 and top 40 respectively while the third single Your Wonderful Sweet Sweet Love was on television quite a bit but only managed to get to #59.

[sup_fan]

yeah i think the likelihood of Marvin producing the girls was slim but in fantasyland, i think it's an interesting option

IMO the MJL lineup was incredibly sexy. Mary has always been one of the prettiest supremes, and Lynda was a knockout too. Jean had this commanding presence too. In 71 and 72, marvin was exploring his options for post-What's Going On music. he'd always been a sex symbol and was exploring that persona with the Let's Get It On album, which was in development and production for some time.

Now i wouldn't ever vote to simply have the Sups do LGIO but what if Marvin took the girls and really played up the sensuality of the women. Certainly Motown [[and probably Jean too lol) would never have gone for anything as direct and controversial as You Sure Love To Ball. but there's a beautiful lushness and sexiness with Marvin's albums - WGO, LGIO and my fav I Want You. Frank Wilson had done a more rock lush sound with the NWBLS and Touch albums. Maybe Marvin would have sort of taken them into Motown's version of Love Unlimited

[RanRan79]

Hi Ran Ran. I really enjoy most of Jimmy Webb's work, I really do. But you put it in perspective when you wrote that the Supremes needed hit singles, and Jimmy wasn't really known for that--with some exceptions. After Up Up and Away, Jimmy produced the 5th's second album--The Magic Garden. There were no hit singles on it. Sunshower no hit singles. The Supremes, no hit singles. Yes he had a string of hits with Glenn Campbell, but that didn't last long. Jimmy Webb is a concept album guy. Even so, he had a tendency to pick out some flat out stupid songs for his concept albums--songs like Walk Your Feet in the Sunshine, Paper Cup and Carpet Man.Why cover Tossin' and Turning? That song IMO was just mediocre at best and in no way should have been a single, which it was in the UK. The Supremes needed a fresh new sound--they didn't need to be recording relics of the past that were ancient history. I think Hollands/Beatty understood this, and that's how we got High Energy and MS&S. Those albums had disco cuts--but they were disco when disco was beautiful music, like Barry White's lush, orchestrated dance music. In just a year or two disco got gimmicky and formulaic and it lost me completely. If I could go back in time and pick a producer for the Supremes, it would have been Barry White. Second, maybe Lionel Richie or Maurice White--but they are a distant second behind Barry White.
Carole King? Hmmm--I'd have to think on that. Again, however, popular as King was in the very early 70's, she was of the old school. I'd still go with Barry White. I think he could have captured Mary's voice, in particular, very well.

Glad you are liking this thread. It's kind of all over the place but who cares! Hee hee!

I personally don't like that the Supremes walked into disco territory at all, although I love some of the cuts they recorded in this direction, as well as the disco genre in general. By the time of the Scherrie years, I feel they would've been better served to record music similar to what the Emotions and HOT were recording. As much as I love a lot of the Supremes stuff at this point, I don't think much of anything they recorded, whether released or vaulted, could've competed with the hot female groups at the time.

I think Barry White producing the Supremes, especially when Jean was in the group, would have been heavenly. I am a HUGE fan of Love Unlimited, a group that is in my top 10 favorite female groups of all time. I'm also a HUGE fan of Barry White in general, one of my favorite male vocalists of all time. [[His voice is so underrated. Sure he get's acclaim for the bass and what it does for a sexy song, but not the acclaim he should get for just being able to tear a song all the way down. Man could that brotha sing.) So pairing the Supremes with him and those lush arrangements...I'm almost sad thinking about it and how it never happened.

Agree about Mary also. Barry's album on Gloria Scott is fantastic and she has a Mary-like voice [[I think Mary has more range, personally), so there's no reason to think his arrangements and Mary's warm voice wouldn't have been a good fit.

[RanRan79]

Agree with RanRan in that Produced and Arranged by Jimmie Webb was possibly, make that probably the worst case scenario.

Well the worst case scenario with Jimmy Webb. The actual worst case scenario involving the Supremes would've been The Supremes Produced and Arranged By Lawrence Welk. It wouldn't have even charted.:p

[RanRan79]

enjoying this thread too!


i think the Supremes were more pop than r&b. look at their chart performance - so many more #1 and top ten pop hits versus r&b. it's not that they didn't have a strong black or r&b base. But the majority of their work was definitely more more "white" than "black"

As compared to MRATV or the Temps. both of those groups were more r&b with some pop overtones. so if Jimmy was going to work with anyone at motown, it would have been Diana or the Sups.

by mid 72, the group was definitely struggling. FJ had been a bit of a rebound but a #16 hit isn't a "mega hit". sure it was one of the stronger performing 70s singles but they were needing something much bigger. The frank wilson worked at first but then tapered off. And his albums struggled. the duets didn't do much. the Smokey work with somewhat successful. So management was trying to figure out what to do next.

it was a gamble for sure and i think there were possibilities for this approach to succeed. Again if they used a stronger singer/songwriter such as Carole King. or if Jimmy had taken a MUCH different approach it could have worked.

I do also like the idea of Barry White coming in and doing his Love Unlimited approach with the girls. LU was strong for a while but the group didn't have massive or long-term chart success. Perhaps combining his work and sound with a more established group like the Sups could have made a difference

The Supremes had more #1 pop hits, but who were they competing against? They were dusting any other female group on the pop charts during those peak years. R&B wise, no other girl group had as many #1 r&b singles, but their competition was much tougher. And when the Supremes almost equaled their five consecutive #1 hit streak in 66/67, they mirrored the pop charts until "The Happening". The Supremes were hugely popular with their original r&b fanbase. The Supremes' albums almost always did much better on the r&b charts than the pop charts, and until "The Happening", starting with "Lovelight" the Supremes' singles always hit the top 10 of the R&B chart, including "Nothing But Heartaches". Their music mostly did better on the R&B chart during the DRATS years as well as the Jean years. So while the goal was always to have the Supremes be a crossover success, there was never a point where Gordy and company were willing to forsake their Black base. To get to 1972 and suddenly decide to ignore what had never been ignored before would've spelled disaster for the group. They were going to need music that would appeal to their core fanbase and the general record buying public and I just don't see any of those Jimmy Webb type singer/songwriters getting the job done on that front.

[RanRan79]

what are people's thoughts on Marvin producing the MJL lineup?

for motown to outside of their producers was quite a surprise.

in 72, Marvin was working on Troubled Man soundtrack. frankly i've never been all that much of a fan of that score and maybe working with the Sups would have been a more fruitful project

Marvin had the capabilities to record himself singing the phone book and I would've loved it. However, I've never been a fan of Trouble Man. With that being said, I think him producing the Supremes in 1972 would've been an interesting concept. In reality, Marvin was focused on his own thing and so I don't think he would've really been too interested. But the results I think would've played up the ladies' sexiness without being overt. The tracks would've no doubt been fantastic. LGIO sessions are eargasmic.

What about Willie Hutch? I love the songs he did with Marvin around this time. He also arranged Suzee Ikeda's version of "I Can't Give Back the Love". While I'm not suggesting that he have taken the song from Suzee and given it to the Supremes, I do think it gives a bit of sense of what the group might have done with Willie.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-Ph8qo28Bs

[RanRan79]

Here is another Willie production around this time, with GC Cameron [[and Syreeta). I think if the group had gone with Willie, it would've been taking Frank's love and peace vibe to another level.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sf6crS6zJzs