High Energy vs Mary, Scherrie & Susaye albums

[BobbyC]

Okay I am a bit bored so I thought I would share with you all some of my observations on the late 70's Supremes. I was a kid coming up in the 70's--I missed the 60's era Motown completely and only knew the songs as oldies. For some reason I bought High Energy in the 9th grade, and later purchased Mary Scherrie and Susaye, but I pretty much didn't know who the Supremes were until then. Anyway I played both albums for my friends who also didn't know the Supremes and I was really surprised at how differently they reacted to these two albums.

High Energy: All my friends who heard this album, really, really liked it. It sounded current and the songs were good. Nobody knew who was singing lead on any of the songs, it could have been the same person on all of them for all we knew, so there was no bias towards one group member or another. You know what song, unanimously, was their favorite? Don't Let My Teardrops Bother You. Every single person I played that song for loved it. Even later in the 80's in college, if I played the High Energy album for people, they tended to gravitate towards Don't Let My Teardrops Bother You. Based on these experiences, I really wonder if Motown had released that song as a single, maybe it would have been the hit they needed. People say that Motown had to release disco due to the disco hysteria at that time, but isn't true. Lots of ballads made it during that time period. Sarah Smile, Kiss and Say Goodbye, and Misty Blue are just a few that come to mind.

Now--How did my non Supremes fan friends react to Mary Scherrie and Susaye? They All, every single one of them, even the ones who loved High Energy, HATED this record. It was shocking to me. I loved MS&S--I liked every song on it. It was, however, more of a straight up funk/dance record than HE. Why it got such a bad reaction from my friends is an open question but I definitely heard the term "screeching" more than once. The only song most people seemed to be able to tolerate was We Should be Closer Together but even that didn't get the same positive reaction as DLMTDBY on the previous record.

Thoughts? I have only one more thing to add. In the late 80's my friend Michael, who was ten or twelve years older than I was, came over to my house and noticed a stack of albums on the floor of my bedroom. The first in the stack was Mary Scherrie and Susaye for whatever reason, and he busted out laughing when he saw the cover! Being older, he was very familiar with the original Supremes. he said something to the effect of "none of those people are Supremes!" I was taken back a bit. By that time I knew who Mary Wilson was and he didn't even know who she was in that photo! He saw the whole thing as a complete joke! I wonder how many people had the same reaction?

Thoughts?

[marv2]

Well I, fortunately, was a little kid when the Supremes got their first major, national hit and had heard some of their music before that hit. That means I grew up with the Supremes on the radio and on TV. I loved both "High Energy" and "Mary, Scherrie & Susaye" I was in high school when both albums came out. I bought "High Energy" right after their American Bandstand appearance and my girlfriend gave me "Mary, Scherrie & Susaye" as a Christmas gift. I never thought to compare them. I really liked them both, although High Energy, I liked it immediately. Mary, Scherrie & Susaye grew on me after several listens. I did not care for "You're My Driving Wheel" as the first single when I heard it,but liked it more later one. "DLMTDBY" was a standout, along with "High Energy" and "I'm Gonna Let My Heart Do the Walking" from High Energy. "We Should Be Closer Together", Sweet Dream Machine, and probably my favorite Supreme song of them all, "You Are the Heart of Me were my favorite cuts from "Mary, Scherrie & Susaye".

[BobbyC]

I never thought about comparing them either until I got that reaction from friends. Stylistically, those albums were very different from each other. For me, High Energy was a pop record with some dance cuts. MS&S was harder dance music, and more in line, vocally, with Labelle. Susaye was very much a Srah Dash type presence on that record, particularly Come Into my Life.

[luke]

For me High Energy is miles ahead of MS and S, though similar to Marv it has grown on me somewhat.

[BobbyC]

Luke--but why? Better songs? Production? Vocals?

[sup_fan]

I would actually recommend look at all 3 Scherrie albums as they form a sort of creative arc

Sup 75 - not only is this record a hodge podge of producers but also of styles and sounds. As Mary described it "something for everyone." IMO it's 2 albums crammed into 1. There's the more pop sounds of the Ivey Woodson tracks [[Color My World Blue, Can't stop a girl, etc) and then generic disco [[He's My Man, Early MOrning, etc). The pop tracks are nice and display some strong vocals. While not extremely memorable [[there are no Up the Ladders or Stop in the name of love) they could have been released and done fine. reintroduce the girls to the general population. The disco tracks just seem ok. nothing more. Also those songs could have been done by any female act. they just don't strike me as anything special or "Supremes"

HE - I like the quote in the 2000 Sup box set booklet from one of the HE producers - how they were really inspired by the full, lush symphonic sound. Clearly they used that as a basis for many of the tracks as you've got oboes, bells and percussion, bassoons, strings, etc. The Sups were beginning to find a "sound" here with IGLMHDTW. it's an aggressive, you-go-girl, high flying song. great vocals and something different. Some of the other dance songs are borderline generic like Sup 75 but they're better here. Title track is definitely unique and begins to hint at the experimental approach they'd be following with next lp

MS&S - IMO this album is the best. a much more cohesive product than either of the prior two. It definitely has some dated sounds though which could certainly help explain your 80s friends not finding it appealing. Here the Hollands take the experimentation from the HE track and the girl power sound and style from Walking and created a whole album. Susaye's contribution is expanded and the trio is just that - a trio.

[BobbyC]

I loved the Mary Scherrie and Susaye album too. A feeling not shared by anybody I knew. They hated Patti Labelle's voice too.

[jobeterob]

High Energy looked like there was a possibility of the Supremes continuing with some degree of success. And then came MSS - and it didn't even chart on the Top 200. I bought it and forgot it. I don't think it's as bad now as I did back then. My thought was it was just another disco album or an attempt to buy into that sound because that is what was selling at the time. It's no wonder that Mary bailed after how poorly it did.

[marv2]

I never thought about comparing them either until I got that reaction from friends. Stylistically, those albums were very different from each other. For me, High Energy was a pop record with some dance cuts. MS&S was harder dance music, and more in line, vocally, with Labelle. Susaye was very much a Srah Dash type presence on that record, particularly Come Into my Life.

"Mary, Scherrie & Susaye" contained a cut that could have beaten The Emotions, "Don't Ask My Neighbors" which came out the following year in 1977. "We Should Be Closer" was every bit as good if not better in my opinion.

[marv2]

High Energy looked like there was a possibility of the Supremes continuing with some degree of success. And then came MSS - and it didn't even chart on the Top 200. I bought it and forgot it. I don't think it's as bad now as I did back then. My thought was it was just another disco album or an attempt to buy into that sound because that is what was selling at the time. It's no wonder that Mary bailed after how poorly it did.

Kind of like how Motown dumped Diana Ross after all those poor-selling albums of the late 80s and 90s, huh? The difference is Ross' albums were hugely promoted as tie-ins to some pretty major events,i.e. TV movie, The Super Bowl, and television guest spots of some of the most popular shows at the time.

[marv2]

Luke--but why? Better songs? Production? Vocals?


For me, it came out too soon after High Energy. "Mary,Scherrie & Susaye" should have been released in 1977.

[sup_fan]

I think part of the problems with MS&S was the lead single.

Driving Wheel was not the right first single. and could argue it should never have been a single. they should have led with Let Yourself Go. Wheel was VERY different in sound from Walking whereas LYG has much more similarities. Wheel might be great for a dance club but perhaps too heavy and banging for radio. LYG is just less noisy lol

the HE project has some very interesting chart performances.

the lp was released in April and by late May had entered the charts and entered at #78! that is the highest chart entrance since Right On and frankly nearly all Sup lps entered in the 100s. so HE entered much higher. it then pretty quickly moved up to 42.

Walking was released in mid March and didn't begin to chart on the pop charts until late May. that's a long period to wait typically. and then it was on the charts for a long time even though it only maxed out at #40.

During this time, Walking was ALL OVER the regional disco charts. and on those charts for a long time. clearly the song was a big big hit with club djs. Motown should have issued a 12" to capitalize on the club play. It finally made the jump to the pop charts and moved quickly but then fizzled.

You could speculate that a 2nd single release from the lp could have sparked more sales and interest, possibly pushing the lp chart higher.

But IMO Walking was the big standout on HE and the only song that might have worked as a strong follow up would be HE. But no way Mary and pedro were gonna release a Susaye lead. Plus with the buzz around Walking, the Hollands and everyone probably thought "let's jump back into the studio fast and really crank out a follow up"

IMO the album MS&S is better than HE. Wheel was a poor single and was released in late Sept. Peaked on the charts in early Dec just as their disastrous Caesar's appearance happened and Mary announced her departure. The lp had been released in October and would have been most likely getting ready to chart in Dec. but seems like the group just imploded

the released LYG for some reason in Jan but with Mary leaving, it got 0 promotional push.

[marv2]

Both albums were very good to excellent. The Holland Brothers and the ladies did an excellent job. Motown did a C- job in promoting them.

[BobbyC]

Well I used to think that some of the album's I loved as a kid didn't sell because nobody played them on the radio [[5th Dimension Earthbound, for instance) but maybe that's only part of the story. My friends' reactions to HE vs MS&S were stark almost to the point of being shocking. And HE sold five times the number of records that MS&S did. At least. So maybe it was the product that made people not want to play it.
RE: Driving Wheel. I absolutely loved that song, still do, but all of my friends hated it. Was it the fact that on DW you had three strong voices singing in almost unison, whereas the songs my friends enjoyed all had one clear lead singer, whether it was Mary or Scherrie [[mostly Mary), where the background is clearly way in the background? To me this is just like how people react differently to a metal guitar vs an acoustic or alt rock guitar. I absolutely HATE metal guitar. I find it boring, loud and ridiculous--but acoustic guitar or alt rock guitar, I really LOVE. With vocals--it seems like people get overwhelmed with too much power, too much volume. I personally love powerhouse female vocals like Chaka Khan, Natalie Cole, Patti and nona--voices like that. But most people seem to prefer a subtler approach. I mean look at today's singers. Very few have vocal power like the previously mentioned singers, or if they have that, they don't use it on record.

[BobbyC]

Sup_fan I never once heard any 70's Supremes songs on the radio [[Buffalo mostly) with the exception of Stoned Love. Never heard Nathan, Up the Ladder or Floy Joy until I bought The Supremes At Their Best. I was way too young to go to clubs. I first heard I'm Gonna Let---Walking on that album and I thought it was good but not exceptional.

[daviddh]

I liked 75 Supremes album but prefer more leads my Scherrie......I would have included..bend a little and Sha la bandit.
Mary's solo can we love again is lovely and could have been I highlight compared to what was actually released.
HE. Love Gonna let my Heart and Teardrops .both highlights.tremendous return to form. Side 2 .boring Mary solos
Lifeless.
But overall nice pop feel. Personally would have gone with original mixs ...but not the Symphony meets disco feel.
miss.straight disco but good gems here.
Sweet dream machine
Let yourself go
You are the heart of me
We should be closer


Not in favor of come into my life or driving wheel

At this point Motown was screwing up everybody including DR....baby it's me!
How did the go from being on point to totally missing the mark.
BG just wanted to make movies.he totally lost his touch.
Bad mgmt

[BobbyC]

David--interesting takes. I never heard Can We Love Again until recently and was hugely disappointed in Mary's vocal. For me she sounded breathy, unsure and just okay. The song was just okay to me too. Mary, to my ears, is incredibly frustrating as a vocalist. There are times she is incredibly strong vocally, like on Teardrops Bother You, Walk the Line, I am Changing etc but other times it's like she isn't even trying, almost whispering. I have always felt this was a mental thing, rather than a vocal chords issue. The woman who sang Teardrop Bother You isn't the same vocalist who sang Love Again even though it is. Scherrie sounds the same ALWAYS.

[jobeterob]

You're My Driving Wheel was a poor choice for a first single - it's just not that good or catchy a song and it appeared to be part of a decision to jump on the disco bandwagon - which failed.

High Energy would have been the new lease on life - a new sound and a very good song.

I think Susaye every so often publicly alludes to "what could have been" and "opportunities lost" and I believe she thinks the Supremes had a chance at that point - but politics were not going to let that happen. And again when Mary left, they might have had a chance to resurrect. But again politics intervened and Mary again interfered, got Diana to influence Berry and together, they all made the choice to "off" the group.

Those two decisions weren't smart.

[BobbyC]

Jobete--well people of my age group mostly didn't know or care who the supremes were in the late 70's. So they would have been starting Tabula Rasa, a blank slate, in those days. If Scherrie and Susaye carried on, I would argue that in terms of name value, most older people would have viewed using that name as a joke or novelty, no matter how talented the women were. It wouldn't have helped them much, maybe it would have been a net drag. But the right song can rescue any group from anonymity, even if that rescue was short lived. The Miracles proved that with Love Machine.

[marv2]

Well I used to think that some of the album's I loved as a kid didn't sell because nobody played them on the radio [[5th Dimension Earthbound, for instance) but maybe that's only part of the story. My friends' reactions to HE vs MS&S were stark almost to the point of being shocking. And HE sold five times the number of records that MS&S did. At least. So maybe it was the product that made people not want to play it.
RE: Driving Wheel. I absolutely loved that song, still do, but all of my friends hated it. Was it the fact that on DW you had three strong voices singing in almost unison, whereas the songs my friends enjoyed all had one clear lead singer, whether it was Mary or Scherrie [[mostly Mary), where the background is clearly way in the background? To me this is just like how people react differently to a metal guitar vs an acoustic or alt rock guitar. I absolutely HATE metal guitar. I find it boring, loud and ridiculous--but acoustic guitar or alt rock guitar, I really LOVE. With vocals--it seems like people get overwhelmed with too much power, too much volume. I personally love powerhouse female vocals like Chaka Khan, Natalie Cole, Patti and nona--voices like that. But most people seem to prefer a subtler approach. I mean look at today's singers. Very few have vocal power like the previously mentioned singers, or if they have that, they don't use it on record.

With "You're My Driving Wheel" you had reverse call and response which is generally a no, no in Soul music.

[BobbyC]

Not sure what you mean

[marv2]

David--interesting takes. I never heard Can We Love Again until recently and was hugely disappointed in Mary's vocal. For me she sounded breathy, unsure and just okay. The song was just okay to me too. Mary, to my ears, is incredibly frustrating as a vocalist. There are times she is incredibly strong vocally, like on Teardrops Bother You, Walk the Line, I am Changing etc but other times it's like she isn't even trying, almost whispering. I have always felt this was a mental thing, rather than a vocal chords issue. The woman who sang Teardrop Bother You isn't the same vocalist who sang Love Again even though it is. Scherrie sounds the same ALWAYS.

Maybe that is why "Can We Love Again" was unreleased for years until the special collections by Hip-O-Select.

[marv2]

Not sure what you mean

Are you responding to me?

[BobbyC]

No Marv. I will, from now on, try to say who I am speaking about/to

[jobeterob]

You might be right about the name Supremes being deadsville by 1977 - and maybe Mary Diana and Berry all knew it

I like the Love Machine reference - a monster hit that sounded nothing like the Miracles we remember who then promptly disappeared

[marv2]

You might be right about the name Supremes being deadsville by 1977 - and maybe Mary Diana and Berry all knew it

I like the Love Machine reference - a monster hit that sounded nothing like the Miracles we remember who then promptly disappeared

I don't believe they believed that. With all the books, DVDs, CDs, compilation albums, costume/gown collection tours, and concerts by former members, I bet some of the of former Supremes have made far more money in the years after the group disbanded than they did while at Motown.

[TheMotownManiac]

Okay I am a bit bored so I thought I would share with you all some of my observations on the late 70's Supremes. I was a kid coming up in the 70's--I missed the 60's era Motown completely and only knew the songs as oldies. For some reason I bought High Energy in the 9th grade, and later purchased Mary Scherrie and Susaye, but I pretty much didn't know who the Supremes were until then. Anyway I played both albums for my friends who also didn't know the Supremes and I was really surprised at how differently they reacted to these two albums.

High Energy: All my friends who heard this album, really, really liked it. It sounded current and the songs were good. Nobody knew who was singing lead on any of the songs, it could have been the same person on all of them for all we knew, so there was no bias towards one group member or another. You know what song, unanimously, was their favorite? Don't Let My Teardrops Bother You. Every single person I played that song for loved it. Even later in the 80's in college, if I played the High Energy album for people, they tended to gravitate towards Don't Let My Teardrops Bother You. Based on these experiences, I really wonder if Motown had released that song as a single, maybe it would have been the hit they needed. People say that Motown had to release disco due to the disco hysteria at that time, but isn't true. Lots of ballads made it during that time period. Sarah Smile, Kiss and Say Goodbye, and Misty Blue are just a few that come to mind.

Now--How did my non Supremes fan friends react to Mary Scherrie and Susaye? They All, every single one of them, even the ones who loved High Energy, HATED this record. It was shocking to me. I loved MS&S--I liked every song on it. It was, however, more of a straight up funk/dance record than HE. Why it got such a bad reaction from my friends is an open question but I definitely heard the term "screeching" more than once. The only song most people seemed to be able to tolerate was We Should be Closer Together but even that didn't get the same positive reaction as DLMTDBY on the previous record.

Thoughts? I have only one more thing to add. In the late 80's my friend Michael, who was ten or twelve years older than I was, came over to my house and noticed a stack of albums on the floor of my bedroom. The first in the stack was Mary Scherrie and Susaye for whatever reason, and he busted out laughing when he saw the cover! Being older, he was very familiar with the original Supremes. he said something to the effect of "none of those people are Supremes!" I was taken back a bit. By that time I knew who Mary Wilson was and he didn't even know who she was in that photo! He saw the whole thing as a complete joke! I wonder how many people had the same reaction?

Thoughts?

a major reason for the decline of The Supremes was the incessant personnel changes. They were The Supremes in name only and most fans had no interest in them at all unless they liked a record, of course. It started when Florence left, the group was not the same without her people that weren’t around at the time don’t realize how popular Flo was. Your friend probably didn’t recognize Mary even though her name is on the cover because she was certainly the least popular of the original three and may have remained the least popular for a couple incarnations. I didn’t know anybody back in the day who was in to Mary. She became the most popular, or more popular anyway by attrition. But lots of people had the same reaction that your friend did a new album comes out there’s another strange new face there and you’re thinking “who are these people?” When Diana was in the group after Flo laughed, she was so grainy and eye-catching that they didn’t lose as many fans as when Diana left of course, and then Cindy, and then Jean and Linda and then Cindy again .....

I agree I much prefer high energy, I believe MSS seems for the most part kind of Soulless and generic. I think don’t let the teardrops bother you as one of the greatest records The Supremes ever did and I really think it should’ve gone out as a single. I love you are the heart of me except for that groany middle.

[marv2]

Jobete--well people of my age group mostly didn't know or care who the supremes were in the late 70's. So they would have been starting Tabula Rasa, a blank slate, in those days. If Scherrie and Susaye carried on, I would argue that in terms of name value, most older people would have viewed using that name as a joke or novelty, no matter how talented the women were. It wouldn't have helped them much, maybe it would have been a net drag. But the right song can rescue any group from anonymity, even if that rescue was short lived. The Miracles proved that with Love Machine.

If that were true of young people in the late 70s, then The Supremes would a history project for young people in 2020!

[Ollie9]

Never liked the 75 album. Sounds dated and not my kind of music.
High Energy and MS&S we’re both high quality releases.. If you mix the two you have an extremely commercial and dynamic album. My idea of the perfect album would have been
Side 1
High Energy
Let My Heart Do The Walking
We Should Be Closer Together.
Don’t Want To Be Tied Down
Come Into My Life
Side 2
Your What’s Missing In My Life. [[Mary Wilson Lead)
Don’t Let My Teardrops Bother You.
Sweet Dream Machine
You Are The Heart Of Me.
Let Yourself Go.

[jim aka jtigre99]

I loved both High Energy and Mary, Scherrie & Susaye. High Energy has a more lush sound and the songs were strong and sung well. MSS has some great songs, it was far more energetic than High Energy and was strongly disco. I loved Let Yourself go. As far as people knowing who was in the group, it seems once Florence left it was a focus on Diana Ross. Mary herself alluded to the DRATS time as the start of Diana's solo career using the Supremes for those 2-3 years as a springboard for that. Since Cindy has a memorable name with Birdsong that was used but clearly with Motown really only wanting Diana as the recognizable name. Once Jean Terrell joined it was a group group but not one where name recognition and individuality was a part of the success. By the time Scherrie joined they had their lowest charting singles with Jean and Lynda. The fact that the group rebounded as they did with High Energy their highest charting LP since Right On is a testament to their talent, even when none of the group members had the name recognition as they did in the past. They did have it with Diana, Mary and Flo with less recognition with Cindy as they became DRATS, but even when Jean joined their individual names and recognition was not what it once was or utilized by Motown. Mary had the issue of vocally sounding slightly similar to Mary Wells and having a similar sounding name as Mary Wilson. I remember in the 90's someone asked Mary how her cancer battle was going and it was because the audience member mixed up Wilson with Wells.

[jack020]

I was a dj in the best Amsterdam gay disco that time when the LP HE came out an used to play the song HE quite a lot.
Everytime I heard that intro [[Wah Wah Watson on guitar :))through our sound system: it sounded so great and lifted me up everytime!

[BobbyC]

I was a dj in the best Amsterdam gay disco that time when the LP HE came out an used to play the song HE quite a lot.
Everytime I heard that intro [[Wah Wah Watson on guitar :))through our sound system: it sounded so great and lifted me up everytime!

Exactly! I was way too young to go to clubs but I would play the songs from High Energy for friends and NOBODY said that sounds old, or dopey. My friends loved that record. The name Supremes didn't matter at all, at least not to us. Was the name, in hindsight, a plus or a minus? I can't say.

[sup_fan]

David--interesting takes. I never heard Can We Love Again until recently and was hugely disappointed in Mary's vocal. For me she sounded breathy, unsure and just okay. The song was just okay to me too. Mary, to my ears, is incredibly frustrating as a vocalist. There are times she is incredibly strong vocally, like on Teardrops Bother You, Walk the Line, I am Changing etc but other times it's like she isn't even trying, almost whispering. I have always felt this was a mental thing, rather than a vocal chords issue. The woman who sang Teardrop Bother You isn't the same vocalist who sang Love Again even though it is. Scherrie sounds the same ALWAYS.

yeah i don't think it's Mary's best vocal ever but i certainly like it better than the idiotic Where Is It I Belong lolol. Plus it given a little variety to tempo and style. I think the lyric on the chorus is too repetitive.

and i think the HE album would have benefited from dumping one or two of the Mary ballads on side 2 and replacing with a song similar in tone to this or You're What's Missing. Not a super heavy dance track like Walking or Only You. But something with more interest and "Energy"

[sup_fan]

Never liked the 75 album. Sounds dated and not my kind of music.
High Energy and MS&S we’re both high quality releases.. If you mix the two you have an extremely commercial and dynamic album. My idea of the perfect album would have been
Side 1
High Energy
Let My Heart Do The Walking
We Should Be Closer Together.
Don’t Want To Be Tied Down
Come Into My Life
Side 2
Your What’s Missing In My Life. [[Mary Wilson Lead)
Don’t Let My Teardrops Bother You.
Sweet Dream Machine
You Are The Heart Of Me.
Let Yourself Go.

very interesting to merge the two albums!

[sup_fan]

I loved both High Energy and Mary, Scherrie & Susaye. High Energy has a more lush sound and the songs were strong and sung well. MSS has some great songs, it was far more energetic than High Energy and was strongly disco. I loved Let Yourself go. As far as people knowing who was in the group, it seems once Florence left it was a focus on Diana Ross. Mary herself alluded to the DRATS time as the start of Diana's solo career using the Supremes for those 2-3 years as a springboard for that. Since Cindy has a memorable name with Birdsong that was used but clearly with Motown really only wanting Diana as the recognizable name. Once Jean Terrell joined it was a group group but not one where name recognition and individuality was a part of the success. By the time Scherrie joined they had their lowest charting singles with Jean and Lynda. The fact that the group rebounded as they did with High Energy their highest charting LP since Right On is a testament to their talent, even when none of the group members had the name recognition as they did in the past. They did have it with Diana, Mary and Flo with less recognition with Cindy as they became DRATS, but even when Jean joined their individual names and recognition was not what it once was or utilized by Motown. Mary had the issue of vocally sounding slightly similar to Mary Wells and having a similar sounding name as Mary Wilson. I remember in the 90's someone asked Mary how her cancer battle was going and it was because the audience member mixed up Wilson with Wells.

agreed! between Diana dominant, type A personality and Motown actively pushing her as the lead singer/spokeperson/star, the public was able to zoom in on her.

originally with the Supremes, you had 3 very identifiable personalities. Both on record and in performance. starting with More Hits, motown began to more actively promote their names and helped identify them more with the public. people really did know Diana, Florence and mary. by 66 or so, you have Diana emerging more as the star and focus and less and less attention on M and F. so while avid fans still knew their names, odds are the general public began to forget which was Mary and which was Flo. or was it Betty and Joanne? or sheila and eunice. lolol

this continued even more overtly during the DRATS years. it was basically the Diana Ross show with a couple of girls standing behind her.

with the Jean years, at first they sort of worked to rebrand the group and included the poster with their names on RO. But at that point you didn't have have a mega-personality like Diana. not that J or M or C have bad personalities or were at fault. it's just that there was a sudden and immediate void. a radical change. the girls and their management would have had to do some serious marketing to really get the public to bother making that personal connection. and as the hits became erratic, people were less inclined to do that

[BobbyC]

Sup_fan I think you make a great point. As a 70's guy, I really only knew Diana Ross. She came out with some great songs like Do You Know Where You're Going To, and The Boss. I was never a fan but there was something about her that made you pay attention for whatever reason. I think Mary Wilson has that similar trait but she seemed too timid to make it known until she HAD TO--when the money dried up. For me, looking in from the outside in the 70's, Mary always seemed to be hiding behind other girls. It was so obvious. She had the skills but never seemed to believe it.By the time High Energy came out, she started to find her feet but it was too late. That being said, Mary is the best known backup singer on the planet so she did something right.

[marv2]

Sup_fan I think you make a great point. As a 70's guy, I really only knew Diana Ross. She came out with some great songs like Do You Know Where You're Going To, and The Boss. I was never a fan but there was something about her that made you pay attention for whatever reason. I think Mary Wilson has that similar trait but she seemed too timid to make it known until she HAD TO--when the money dried up. For me, looking in from the outside in the 70's, Mary always seemed to be hiding behind other girls. It was so obvious. She had the skills but never seemed to believe it.By the time High Energy came out, she started to find her feet but it was too late. That being said, Mary is the best known backup singer on the planet so she did something right.

Mary Wilson is not a back up singer.

[sup_fan]

Diana was just totally unique. and that isn't meant to slight the other women. I can imagine Diana in her kindergarden class being the one at the school assembly performance that just was super hyped to be there and swayed and danced the most lolol

and physically your eye is drawn to diana partially because of her huge wide smile and enormous eyes. She's just a natural center of attention

by the later 60s, Mary was much much more animated that she was in early appearances on tv. but sometimes too much so. or maybe just too obvious about it. this continued into the 70s where she's really flying on the dance steps and hand gestures. sometimes seemed a bit spastic.

I do think you're right that Mary tried to take center stage too late. she tried in the jean years but jean was hired to be the lead singer. the group wasn't at the time structured as a multi-lead group. mary only recorded a handful of lead tracks during this time and basically just kept crooning Can't Take My Eyes year after year after year.

[BobbyC]

I know whatcha mean, Sup. Even today, Mary sings the same old songs in her shows. I get it that she should do her best known songs, of course, but IMO she should have branched out many years ago. She did Can't Take My Eyes Off of you for decades. Where is the excitement? Where is the growth?

[sup_fan]

in talking with fans, that is actually some of the gripes and problems [[again according to the fans) between Jean and mary. Jean was in the studio a LOT, often M and C were replaced in the backgrounds, Jean was doing nearly all of the leads live on tv and in concert and having to learn that material. Meanwhile mary did some occasion background work and basically sang 1 song again and again in concert. Jean was also salaried and not earning royalties on Ladder and some of the other early tunes.

So you have this problem where on one side you have Mary - stepping up as the original and trying to lead the direction of the group and then the other side Jean - a hugely talented woman who's doing the lion share of the work, getting less money and not able to really take the group in a new direction

[sup_fan]

sorry - i got us off topic again lolol ;)

this two sided problem seems to also be in place in the MSS years. You have Mary now as the focal point of the group, doing about 50% of the leads on record and in shows. She's the spokesperson and runs the organization. but seems locked in the old tired image of the group and using the same old songs

then on the other side you have S and S. both unique and gifted singers, both were songwriters [[with Susaye having a big hit with Free) and yet they had little to no voice in the direction or approach.

i get it that Mary had paid her dues and as the original Sup, deserved her time in the spotlight. But part of the point of bringing in new people is to also bring in fresh perspective. a new sound, a new approach, a new talent. Other than jean, none of the 70s sups really got that opportunity. Scherrie did a bit since she shared a lot of the leads. but that might be why the group was teased as being a revolving door of singers - none of them really were given an opportunity to truly be their own star within the framework of the group

[BobbyC]

Sup I actually got to be a fan of Motown and the Supremes because of Mary's book Dreamgirl. A friend of mine in college bought it for me, and although I had several Supremes' Lps from the late 70's, I didn't have a clue about the group's history until I read Mary's book. I was fascinated and totally taken in. Today I see the truth. Diana Ross is where she is today because she earned it. She had that weird, crazy energy that very few people have. Mary is as talented, vocally, but she never seems to step up to the plate. She played in my hometown in the 90's, it was a benefit of some sort that I've forgotten, and I didn't even know she was here. If a friend hadn't put a flyer for the show on my windshield I would have missed the show--and I was a huge fan!! Mary played a hotel and did a great show--but I remember people there commenting on how few people were there, which annoyed me because the place would have been sold out if people actually knew the show was happening! I was a big fan and I only knew about the show, basically, by accident! Would Diana Ross stand for that kind of indifferent non-publicity? HELL NO. I could have personally brought 100 people or more to Mary's show and I was very connected to Mary's fan base at that time--but nobody contacted me. I would have been happy to help. It just seems like Mary doesn't quite get how to motivate people in her behalf, but Diana Ross absolutely does. She would have been on that phone, raising hell if people didn't know she'd be appearing here for a benefit!

[Circa 1824]

I know whatcha mean, Sup. Even today, Mary sings the same old songs in her shows. I get it that she should do her best known songs, of course, but IMO she should have branched out many years ago. She did Can't Take My Eyes Off of you for decades. Where is the excitement? Where is the growth?

Marys Can’t Take My Eyes Off You is like watching paint dry. Good God, that woman has offers no excitement, but she tries and tries and tries and tries and tries ...... because mortgage payments come the first of each month.

[sup_fan]

Marys Can’t Take My Eyes Off You is like watching paint dry. Good God, that woman has offers no excitement, but she tries and tries and tries and tries and tries ...... because mortgage payments come the first of each month.

LOLOLOL

supposedly Gil would try and approach her with new songs and she just wanted to keep singing this old thing

[BobbyC]

I didn't start this thread meaning to bash Mary-- I always just wanted her to do well, that's all.

[Ollie9]

I know whatcha mean, Sup. Even today, Mary sings the same old songs in her shows. I get it that she should do her best known songs, of course, but IMO she should have branched out many years ago. She did Can't Take My Eyes Off of you for decades. Where is the excitement? Where is the growth?

Thats what i so love about a Dian Ross concert. She never ever sings the same songs over and over and over again. It certainly keeps the show fresh with the audience never quite sure just what shes going to perform next. If only there were more singers that made the effort. :eek:

[marv2]

Thats what i so love about a Dian Ross concert. She never ever sings the same songs over and over and over again. It certainly keeps the show fresh with the audience never quite sure just what shes going to perform next. If only there were more singers that made the effort. :eek:

You need to quit! LOL!!!!! hehehehehehehehehehe...........

[marv2]

I know whatcha mean, Sup. Even today, Mary sings the same old songs in her shows. I get it that she should do her best known songs, of course, but IMO she should have branched out many years ago. She did Can't Take My Eyes Off of you for decades. Where is the excitement? Where is the growth?

That is not true at all and I don't even know how you can say that. Mary has three different shows. Her "Supremes/Rock and Roll"show, her "Up close/Jazz" show and her "Symphony Concert" show. In each show's setlist there are a number of different songs. The only songs I know that Mary has kept are a core of about 5 or 6 Supremes songs from the 60s and she interchanges the songs from the 70s that she does. So to see you post that she never changes her songs makes we wonder WTF are you even talking about? You always admit that you don't know much about Mary's career or about the Supremes careers in the 70s. Mary has performed a massive amount concerts here and around the world over the last 40 years. I have never seen her do "Can't Take My Eyes Off of You" in her solo concerts from the 80s to 2020. I know she hasn't whenever I was in the audience. I really would not see the value in you purposely lying , so I prefer to believe that you are just not remembering things right and hope that no one else here does know the real deal. I know the real deal and everyone knows that I do not care if anyone does not like that I tell the truth!

[sup_fan]

I didn't start this thread meaning to bash Mary-- I always just wanted her to do well, that's all.

agreed - and we've gone a bit off topic.

HE and MS&S contain two of the best Mary leads. Teardrops and We should be closer

I used to really like You Are the Heart. I still do but like the moans less now than i did before. Now i like We Should be closer better

and if i had to pick between Teardrops and Closer, i'd take Closer. it's a really interesting song and Susaye duetting is very cool

[TheMotownManiac]

Sup_fan I think you make a great point. As a 70's guy, I really only knew Diana Ross. She came out with some great songs like Do You Know Where You're Going To, and The Boss. I was never a fan but there was something about her that made you pay attention for whatever reason. I think Mary Wilson has that similar trait but she seemed too timid to make it known until she HAD TO--when the money dried up. For me, looking in from the outside in the 70's, Mary always seemed to be hiding behind other girls. It was so obvious. She had the skills but never seemed to believe it.By the time High Energy came out, she started to find her feet but it was too late. That being said, Mary is the best known backup singer on the planet so she did something right.

Please forgive my many typos as my hand is in a cast and I cannot type and this dictating technology is obviously still in its infancy.

Mary seemed timid timid early on, but she had two stupendous personalities in the Supremes that made her a distant third and it might not have been very good for her ego. when Florence laughed, you can see a huge change in her on the TV appearances and whenever to Millatti she had seemed to have overcome it by the Hollywood palace hosting in May 1969. Her gestures and movements were always way more exaggerated than Cindy’s or any other supreme. By the time Sherry joined the group, mary practically had a neon sign coming out of her head saying look at me she was always trying to upstage the other two Her gestures and movements were always way more exaggerated than Cindy’s or any other supreme. By the time Sherry joined the group, mary practically had a neon sign coming out of her head saying look at me. she was always trying to upstage the other two. You can look at any video after Jean left and even when someone else is singing lead Mary is often Seen trying to take attention away from them. All of her solos and extreme gesturing helped hone her craft, but it is very detrimental to the group. As I’ve mentioned before I love some of Mary’s ballads, but there are lots of people I play them for that just cannot stand her voice. Maybe it’s because we are all used to it, but there’s never been much demand from the general public For her services locally. She has done a brilliant job of making a name for herself and acknowledging her strengths and her wonderful God-given talent and making it work for her. Remember she spent four or five years constantly doing radio television and print interviews for the books and all of that what is valuable toward making a name for herself. Without question right now, none of her peers can touch Mary when it comes to television interviews. Mary could get a big solo gig in the 80s in Vegas Or the like, but the attendance never lead to anything. Even if Mary had the assuredness she enjoys today back in the 70s, it would not have helped the group as that is not what pop and soul groups were looking for a 1970s. As much as I love her ballads, I do think that it was possible even back in the 70s, to try to launch her that way, but there was no industry interest in doing so. I understand why she tried to make the Supremes a launching pad for her solo career, but the group paid a heavy price for it. I’ve come to the conclusion that many of us have grown accustomed to her voice and have learned to enjoy it and appreciate it. But as this three shared leads with Jean attest, her voice does not draw people in To the pop market.

[daviddh]

I like the idea of combining the two albums.
I think Motown could of got some mileage out of the album with a second single

[RanRan79]

I prefer HE to MSS, but neither album knocks me out. From HE I'll play "Walking", "Teardrops", "Energy" and "Missing" quite a bit. Sometimes I'll play "Moving On". I really love the tracks, especially the intro to "Boat", but it drags along and Mary's vocal is on the dull side.

On MSS, I'll play "Dream Machine", "Let Yourself Go", "Heart Of Me" and "Tied". Occasionally I'll play "Driving Wheel". I think song for song MSS might be the better album, but for whatever reason I just prefer HE.

The Supremes should've stuck to what made them, them: r&b/pop hybrid. Sweet melodies, grooving tracks, love found, love lost. I still say they should have looked more toward the Emotions for inspiration. The Supremes didn't need disco. I also don't think at this point that they needed an identifiable lead singer. Give Scherrie the more upbeat tunes, and let Mary and Susaye split the ballads and mid tempos.

"You Can't Stop A Girl" should've been the first single from the 75 album. Follow that with "Color My World" and then "You Turn Me Around", the latter of which I would remix by punching up the track just a tad, writing in a more memorable and exciting chorus, and having Mary re-record her lead and push her to give it more gusto.

From HE, "Walking" was a good move. I don't consider it disco, although it is a dance song. "High Energy" was another good move and should've been promoted like crazy as a single. "Teardrops" is definitely a winner. It should've had a single release.

From MSS, it's hard for me to argue against "Let Yourself Go" because I really love it, but if I'm advocating for non disco, then it must be a pass. So for me the only option is the beautiful "We Should Be Closer Together", although I have failed to really get into it. I chalk that up to my stupidity as opposed to there being something lacking in the song.

IMO this is really the only way the Supremes work during the Scherrie years. The Emotions, HOT, Alton McClain and Destiny, and even some Pointer Sisters material makes more sense than what a lot of what the group was putting out at the time.

[RanRan79]

Of course my previous post is wishful thinking. I really think the Supremes had run it's course. At this point they were almost assuredly destined to be seen as a group hanging on who need to hang it up, especially with the music they were recording. They were never, ever, gonna be Flo, Diana and Mary, and thus always working against itself. They would never have won the battle to be seen as a legit group in it's own right. That's why I believe it's possible that Mary made a huge mistake not going with Jean and Lynda elsewhere and starting a whole other group. [[I also am starting to think it may not have been that much of a mistake, considering Mary may have gone with Jean and Lynda and then at some point found herself replaced, since the three of them bumped heads quite a bit.) The Supremes name was an oldies act and it was time to look ahead.

I can't argue against anyone's opinion regarding Mary's voice, no more than I would argue Diana's or any other Supreme. It's all subjective. But I can never get behind the idea that Mary should've stayed and kept the group going. They were headed for FLOSville, so what would have been the point? Made more sense to leave and indulge in the pleasure of being a single artist. It was time to graduate and had Mary had better business sense and a team of qualified personnel surrounding her, she may very well have been the second most successful Supreme [[recording career wise) when it was all said and done.

[sup_fan]

i think if the Supremes had continued, they could even evolved what they did and schedules. just like Scherrie has done with the FLO's. there's still time for solo projects. they could explore other things and then come back to tours, events. and yes, eventually they'd most likely become an oldies act. Frankly so had diana. sure she's released some albums but nothing really serious since 2000 and even internationally, the hits are few and far between. even in the 90s. that's ok. people are still happy to come see her

and the same might have happened for the supremes. they could have done guest spots on tv shows, either together or solo. done smaller plays, jazz clubs. maybe each woman would have delved into a new music genre, explore.

The point is there could have been other options

[Ollie9]

With the final Supremes lineup we had three women who were all more then capable of singing lead. Sussaye added a great vocal dynamic to the group that complimented the other women’s [[particularly Mary’s) voices. For this reason alone I would have loved just one more album.
I wonder had “Let Yourself Go” been released as lead single and gone on to become a runaway hit, would Mary have decided to stick around a little longer?. Would Motown have suddenly become a lot more interested?. The eventual fate of the group might have proved very different.

[BobbyC]

I liked Susaye's voice but my friends hated it. One of them said she sounded like a screeching cat! I prefer Susaye in the background more than on lead. To my ears, Scherrie and Mary had good lead voices on the right material--but Susaye's voice really added some extra excitement to many of those tracks. I actually heard Let Yourself Go on the radio exactly once back then. Years ago Susaye told me she thought that song was too fast which sort of surprised me. I would be a lousy producer. A song like Let Yourself Go could be done so many different ways--how does one choose?

[sup_fan]

I liked Susaye's voice but my friends hated it. One of them said she sounded like a screeching cat! I prefer Susaye in the background more than on lead. To my ears, Scherrie and Mary had good lead voices on the right material--but Susaye's voice really added some extra excitement to many of those tracks. I actually heard Let Yourself Go on the radio exactly once back then. Years ago Susaye told me she thought that song was too fast which sort of surprised me. I would be a lousy producer. A song like Let Yourself Go could be done so many different ways--how does one choose?

i wonder if she's maybe remembering their live rendition of LYG which was like a runaway train. plus with the choreography and gowns and stage lights, it's amazing one of them didn't suffer cardiac arrest right on the stage! lol


Motown was interested in the group again during Walking. with such as ham handed promotional campaign and strategy, it was on the charts a long time. was on fire in the clubs. so motown felt - ok maybe there IS still some interest in the group. with gays and discos and dance.

motown didn't really have a disco act at the time. Diana had just broken into that market with Hangover and labels like Casablanca were really getting hot. I'd guess that motown thought they could take an established brand like The Supremes and pretty easily take them into that market. rather than trying to build and develop something new.

[BobbyC]

I think Susaye was talking about the recorded version. She just thought it was a bit too fast. I never thought about it until then and yeah it does seem a bit frantic. Terrific lead by Scherrie--one of her best IMO.

[RanRan79]

i think if the Supremes had continued, they could even evolved what they did and schedules. just like Scherrie has done with the FLO's. there's still time for solo projects. they could explore other things and then come back to tours, events. and yes, eventually they'd most likely become an oldies act. Frankly so had diana. sure she's released some albums but nothing really serious since 2000 and even internationally, the hits are few and far between. even in the 90s. that's ok. people are still happy to come see her

and the same might have happened for the supremes. they could have done guest spots on tv shows, either together or solo. done smaller plays, jazz clubs. maybe each woman would have delved into a new music genre, explore.

The point is there could have been other options

But there would have been no more hits, so what would the point have been? If Mary kept the Supremes going, she's dividing money up between her and whatever two Supremes she's singing with. Mary basically has been doing, more or less, a FLOS act for the last 40 years, but at least whatever she makes, she gets to pocket herself, minus expenses. There are pros and cons to being in a group and being a single artist. By the time Mary bounced from the group, what exactly were the pros for her remaining? I really can't think of a single one.

The Supremes had outlived their life expectancy. Can you imagine the Beatles doing disco? At some point people go "what the fuck", shake their heads and look away out of pity. Motown, and by extension Mary, or the other way around, were draining the life out of the group. There was nothing left in that vein. Plus Mary was a bit older than Scherrie and Susaye, and with a family, Mary was on a different level. This wasn't the 60s when the three Supremes were all basically the same age with the same amount of life experience and pretty much on the same growth level...friends. I don't see MSS being the girlfriends like the originals. I could see Scherrie and Susaye with a lot in common with one another, with Mary the odd woman out. Who wants to live like that?

If I'm Motown, I retire the name, let Mary do her solo thing, add a third lady to Scherrie and Susaye and let nature take it's course.

[RanRan79]

With the final Supremes lineup we had three women who were all more then capable of singing lead. Sussaye added a great vocal dynamic to the group that complimented the other women’s [[particularly Mary’s) voices. For this reason alone I would have loved just one more album.
I wonder had “Let Yourself Go” been released as lead single and gone on to become a runaway hit, would Mary have decided to stick around a little longer?. Would Motown have suddenly become a lot more interested?. The eventual fate of the group might have proved very different.

Hits definitely make the lives of entertainers easier, so it's not a stretch to suspect that Mary would've stuck it out, even if just a bit longer, had "Let Yourself Go" taken off. However, it has to be pointed out that even with "Someday We'll Be Together" becoming a massive hit, Diana was like "fuck this shit, I'm out!":p Of course her situation was a bit different because her exit had been in the plans for about two years. I think when MSS failed to chart anywhere, and then "Go" didn't make any waves outside of the clubs, Mary saw how this was going to go down and bounced. She would've been stupid to stay.

[RanRan79]

I liked Susaye's voice but my friends hated it. One of them said she sounded like a screeching cat! I prefer Susaye in the background more than on lead. To my ears, Scherrie and Mary had good lead voices on the right material--but Susaye's voice really added some extra excitement to many of those tracks. I actually heard Let Yourself Go on the radio exactly once back then. Years ago Susaye told me she thought that song was too fast which sort of surprised me. I would be a lousy producer. A song like Let Yourself Go could be done so many different ways--how does one choose?

I'm not a fan of Susaye's lead voice either, although I'd have to be deaf not to recognize how talented she is. I find that she adds more to the backing vocals that gives those songs a certain sound they might have been missing for sometime. But she was more than capable of singing lead, and honestly, between her talent as a vocalist and her songwriting abilities, she probably never should've been a Supreme in the first place. She should have been out on her own.

[RanRan79]

motown didn't really have a disco act at the time. Diana had just broken into that market with Hangover and labels like Casablanca were really getting hot. I'd guess that motown thought they could take an established brand like The Supremes and pretty easily take them into that market. rather than trying to build and develop something new.

That makes a lot of sense. It's difficult for me to believe there's any accuracy to the hypothesis, considering how dumb TPTB at Motown at the time appear to have been. I still disagree that the Supremes were the group to establish the label in disco. Maybe had they signed Scherrie as a solo artist...

[sup_fan]

I think Susaye was talking about the recorded version. She just thought it was a bit too fast. I never thought about it until then and yeah it does seem a bit frantic. Terrific lead by Scherrie--one of her best IMO.

i agree. i think the song is excellent. It's actually one of my all-time favorite supremes records.

[sup_fan]

That makes a lot of sense. It's difficult for me to believe there's any accuracy to the hypothesis, considering how dumb TPTB at Motown at the time appear to have been. I still disagree that the Supremes were the group to establish the label in disco. Maybe had they signed Scherrie as a solo artist...

i guess we'll have to agree to disagree lolol Now i do like the overall genre of disco. I think it makes some of the best dance music. but then again, i remember it when it was new too! lol

that's not to say that all disco music was excellent or of high quality. absolutely not. as time progressed, it become more and more mechanical and soulless. And even some of the more popular hits and music by quality artists was a bit disappointing. That's why i like the Supremes' stuff, especially MS&S. There's a legitimate effort to create melody with many of their songs. Walking, You keep me moving on, you're what's missing, Don't want to be tied down, let yourself go - although to be honest LYG is more just a feel-good dance tune. Each of these has some attempt at some pretty decent verses and choruses, utilizing some strong backup vocals too. IMO they're not just mindless thumping of the bass beat.

Disco was slandered by white midwest men that felt threatened by this burgeoning music that came from the blacks and gays. And disco didn't help itself by becoming so mainstream that you had parents in Peoria learning to hustle and heading to a local disco. And some of the music frankly was garbage. But there's junk in any and all musical genres too

[Boogiedown]

The Supremes did very well in the disco market [[ IGLMHDTW =#3, HIGH ENERGY=#9, MS&S=#5) and were embraced in the clubs. As were the J5 , Eddie Kendricks, The Originals ....
The pop and soul markets were both resisting disco and therefore weren't looking for yet more disco to have to program , even though it was at the cost of not continuing to support the beloved Supremes .

[sup_fan]

I'm not a fan of Susaye's lead voice either, although I'd have to be deaf not to recognize how talented she is. I find that she adds more to the backing vocals that gives those songs a certain sound they might have been missing for sometime. But she was more than capable of singing lead, and honestly, between her talent as a vocalist and her songwriting abilities, she probably never should've been a Supreme in the first place. She should have been out on her own.

Susaye is most certainly one of the most talented, vocally, of the supremes. she does have a very unique tone and sound quality. it's an unusual tone and maybe not quite to everyone's liking. but damn - that woman was talented. I just don't know that there was really sufficient time for the producers and her to get into a rhythm. although they clearly did find ingenious ways to leverage her abilities.

ear candy - this was totally new for the Sups sound. her ad libs and extras on Walking, Wheel, the ending of Sweet Dream Machine.

Come into my life - Obviously HE and Walking weren't written with her in mind. I'd like to think that Come Into My Life was. it's very interesting how they segue her vocals into the synthesizer.

new and different approaches to background - on the LYG EE set, there's the unreleased version of I Don't Want to Lose You where Susaye adds much more bg vocals. Then they used her to do the soprano echo part on We Should Be Closer

there's a little thing that i just love on Sweet Dream. during Susaye's verse, it's so subtle you'll easily miss it. she sings "You take me high, you take me low." on the word High, she does a slide DOWN. and then on Low, she flips her voice UP! it's just those little things that help display her amazing talents

[sup_fan]

we've talked plenty about how the live shows for MSS were a mess. For the Susaye solo, they simply pulled old songs out of their set list like He Aint Heavy and People. Both were old songs jean did. By the end, she was doing that stevie song. But they didn't really let her showcase on a piece that's just perfect for her

like this song. I've never liked this song really but DAMN!!! this is just a stunning performance and shows what could have been done

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xjGRP5nXDtw

[Ollie9]

Hits definitely make the lives of entertainers easier, so it's not a stretch to suspect that Mary would've stuck it out, even if just a bit longer, had "Let Yourself Go" taken off. However, it has to be pointed out that even with "Someday We'll Be Together" becoming a massive hit, Diana was like "fuck this shit, I'm out!":p Of course her situation was a bit different because her exit had been in the plans for about two years. I think when MSS failed to chart anywhere, and then "Go" didn't make any waves outside of the clubs, Mary saw how this was going to go down and bounced. She would've been stupid to stay.

Absolutely. The writing was on the wall. I thought that Mary’s solo album would be a continuation of the excellent material she had performed on the last two Supremes albums. She was really coming into her own during that period and had grown in confidence when singing leads. How wrong can you be lol......Huge shame.

[sup_fan]

Absolutely. The writing was on the wall. I thought that Mary’s solo album would be a continuation of the excellent material she had performed on the last two Supremes albums. She was really coming into her own during that period and had grown in confidence when singing leads. How wrong can you be lol......Huge shame.

exactly. that 79 album wasn't Red Hot but rather a Hot Mess. lol

still the 4 Gus songs do definitely show that, given the right material, she was more than just a ballad singer. I wonder if she'd done something more like Martha's solo debut for MCA. something a bit more rock and roll and blues rather than disco and fast. I could hear her doing Storm in my Soul and her Save Me is excellent.

[sup_fan]

The Supremes did very well in the disco market [[ IGLMHDTW =#3, HIGH ENERGY=#9, MS&S=#5) and were embraced in the clubs. As were the J5 , Eddie Kendricks, The Originals ....
The pop and soul markets were both resisting disco and therefore weren't looking for yet more disco to have to program , even though it was at the cost of not continuing to support the beloved Supremes .

correct. the Supremes were a bit ahead of the general public accepting disco. sure there had been hits in 74, 75 and 76, but it didn't super explode all over until late 77 with Saturday Night Fever. after that movie, you then had discos popping up in every city and radio stations completely dropping their old formats and going all disco.

[BobbyC]

Sup_fan I must take issue with your comment that mid western white guys were threatened by music by gays and blacks. That is not how i remember it at all. While it is true that the mid west was mostly white rock. When disco first got popular, almost nobody had a problem with it. People loved going to clubs and Sat Night Fever was the biggest movie soundtrack in the world. In about a two year period, which is really brief when you think about it, suddenly EVERYTHING was disco. It was too much. The music went so downhill, so quickly, with songs like Funky Town. Suddenly this underground cool music was formulaic, cold and repetitive. On top of that, people like me who loved slightly older black artists like Labelle and Earth Wind and Fire, weren't hearing these groups anymore. They tried to make disco records but most bombed. The Motown groups were mostly over. On top of all these things, the rock music that mid western guys loved vanished! Suddenly their heroes like Rod Stewart and The Stones were making thumper music and everybody was like what in the hell happened? That's when the backlash started. It was too much, too fast. And gay people never even entered the mix. Back then the subject was so taboo, so dirty, that people pretended that gay men didn't exist--they knew almost nothing about gay life and would prefer to know less. I remember it very clearly.

[Boogiedown]

correct. the Supremes were a bit ahead of the general public accepting disco. sure there had been hits in 74, 75 and 76, but it didn't super explode all over until late 77 with Saturday Night Fever. after that movie, you then had discos popping up in every city and radio stations completely dropping their old formats and going all disco. And even when playing disco 24/7 those stations couldn't play it all. It was crazy, the amount of output , until it imploded.

Pop, Top 40 stations were trying to remain well rounded , not wanting to feature too much of any one sound over another because they wanted to attract as broad a listening audience as they could. That was part of the appeal, and that meant rationing all types of music, country, soul , rock and now this newcomer, 'disco' .
The black stations also felt encroached upon because a) they were "losing" some of their familiar acts to this overly specific dance oriented sound [[ ie The Supremes is a great example , The Emotions , EW&F) and incorporating disco meant programming a sound that made it harder to maintain a black format : disco was colorless.

[Ollie9]

exactly. that 79 album wasn't Red Hot but rather a Hot Mess. lol

still the 4 Gus songs do definitely show that, given the right material, she was more than just a ballad singer. I wonder if she'd done something more like Martha's solo debut for MCA. something a bit more rock and roll and blues rather than disco and fast. I could hear her doing Storm in my Soul and her Save Me is excellent.

I do agree, though almost any other genre of music would have been better suited to her style of voice then the dreaded disco. I still hold with the theory it was sabotage lol. The Pointer Sisters had an album out in 79 named Priority. Almost every song on it might have been perfect for Mary...

[sup_fan]

Sup_fan I must take issue with your comment that mid western white guys were threatened by music by gays and blacks. That is not how i remember it at all. While it is true that the mid west was mostly white rock. When disco first got popular, almost nobody had a problem with it. People loved going to clubs and Sat Night Fever was the biggest movie soundtrack in the world. In about a two year period, which is really brief when you think about it, suddenly EVERYTHING was disco. It was too much. The music went so downhill, so quickly, with songs like Funky Town. Suddenly this underground cool music was formulaic, cold and repetitive. On top of that, people like me who loved slightly older black artists like Labelle and Earth Wind and Fire, weren't hearing these groups anymore. They tried to make disco records but most bombed. The Motown groups were mostly over. On top of all these things, the rock music that mid western guys loved vanished! Suddenly their heroes like Rod Stewart and The Stones were making thumper music and everybody was like what in the hell happened? That's when the backlash started. It was too much, too fast. And gay people never even entered the mix. Back then the subject was so taboo, so dirty, that people pretended that gay men didn't exist--they knew almost nothing about gay life and would prefer to know less. I remember it very clearly.

appreciate your reply and i was probably too broad in my comment. But there definitely was a homophobic response to disco. along with racist and sexist attitudes too. both within the industry and within the general public. there are a lot of theories as to why and one is definitely right in line with your comments. Disco became it's own worst enemy - too much, too fast, deterioration in quality. when it sort of took over everything and pushed most of the other genres out, people started to react against it.

a year or two ago, i read a very interesting book on the subject. quite an interesting read

https://www.amazon.com/Hot-Stuff-Remaking-American-Culture-ebook/dp/B0039H35LC/ref=sr_1_1?crid=3FAZZ7YHBXTX7&dchild=1&keywords=hot+stuff+disco+and+the+remaking+of+ameri can+culture&qid=1591386265&s=digital-text&sprefix=hot+stuff+disco+%2Cdigital-text%2C184&sr=1-1

[Boogiedown]

oh yes , much of the masses loved 'disco' ... , they really did, and much to the chagrin of the rockin' and rollin' haters ....

.....until they found out !!

[BobbyC]

Ollie--Priority is one of my all time favorite albums. Who Do Ya Love?

[BobbyC]

I never heard of that book before but I'll probably get it. Thanks for the tip. Back in the 70's where I grew up outside of Niagara Falls, gay people were never even mentioned. It was completely taboo. I remember the subject came up exactly once with my grandmother. She told me one day that the guy who cut/styled her hair was "funny." She said it in a sombre, hushed tone which led me to believe we were talking about something dark and evil. I was a kid and didn't understand, really, but believe me I learned quickly no to bring it up ever again. Hard to believe by today's standards, but I remember it. It was terrible

[MotownFan1]

Love Priority​! It’s one of my favorite Pointer Sisters albums.

[MotownFan1]

And I agree ... there are songs on that album that would be perfect for Mary‘s voice.

[sup_fan]

I never heard of that book before but I'll probably get it. Thanks for the tip. Back in the 70's where I grew up outside of Niagara Falls, gay people were never even mentioned. It was completely taboo. I remember the subject came up exactly once with my grandmother. She told me one day that the guy who cut/styled her hair was "funny." She said it in a sombre, hushed tone which led me to believe we were talking about something dark and evil. I was a kid and didn't understand, really, but believe me I learned quickly no to bring it up ever again. Hard to believe by today's standards, but I remember it. It was terrible

oh yes - the hushed tones. like when they told you someone had *cancer*. they lean in closer and sort of whisper it. like saying the word aloud might smite and stricken you with said affliction!

You do bring up a valid point though. outside of the metropolises, people might not have immediately caught onto the idea that the gays were one of the early disco audiences. other than that random "funny" hairdresser or florist. or that peculiar uncle/aunt, you're right that it wasn't spoken of.

[BobbyC]

Or if they suspected they ignored it.

[BobbyC]

You know Sup, I had a friend in the 80's who told me he had "two uncles." These uncles were much older than we were, and they bought two seperate houses right next to each other in Florence Texas. Neither married, they were inseparable and basically farmed their mutual properties for 60 years. But nobody talked about it but people seemed to accept them. Anyway I guess I've veered off topic.

[blackguy69]

Mary and Scherrie were only 8 months apart . I would call that a bit older lol.
But there would have been no more hits, so what would the point have been? If Mary kept the Supremes going, she's dividing money up between her and whatever two Supremes she's singing with. Mary basically has been doing, more or less, a FLOS act for the last 40 years, but at least whatever she makes, she gets to pocket herself, minus expenses. There are pros and cons to being in a group and being a single artist. By the time Mary bounced from the group, what exactly were the pros for her remaining? I really can't think of a single one.

The Supremes had outlived their life expectancy. Can you imagine the Beatles doing disco? At some point people go "what the fuck", shake their heads and look away out of pity. Motown, and by extension Mary, or the other way around, were draining the life out of the group. There was nothing left in that vein. Plus Mary was a bit older than Scherrie and Susaye, and with a family, Mary was on a different level. This wasn't the 60s when the three Supremes were all basically the same age with the same amount of life experience and pretty much on the same growth level...friends. I don't see MSS being the girlfriends like the originals. I could see Scherrie and Susaye with a lot in common with one another, with Mary the odd woman out. Who wants to live like that?

If I'm Motown, I retire the name, let Mary do her solo thing, add a third lady to Scherrie and Susaye and let nature take it's course.

[marv2]

Mary and Scherrie were only 8 months apart . I would call that a bit older lol.

I am learning that you just have to overlook some of the things these guys say. I have known about the Supremes since before they had their first number one on through to when Mary went solo and the group disbanded. I knew of them in real-time and not from reading books years and years later. Yes, both Mary and Scherrie are the same age and were born in 1944.

[blackguy69]

You mean when she did knocks me off my feet.


we've talked plenty about how the live shows for MSS were a mess. For the Susaye solo, they simply pulled old songs out of their set list like He Aint Heavy and People. Both were old songs jean did. By the end, she was doing that stevie song. But they didn't really let her showcase on a piece that's just perfect for her

like this song. I've never liked this song really but DAMN!!! this is just a stunning performance and shows what could have been done

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xjGRP5nXDtw

[blackguy69]

https://youtu.be/DF5peqnyNi4
You mean when she did knocks me off my feet.

[RanRan79]

i guess we'll have to agree to disagree lolol Now i do like the overall genre of disco. I think it makes some of the best dance music. but then again, i remember it when it was new too! lol

that's not to say that all disco music was excellent or of high quality. absolutely not. as time progressed, it become more and more mechanical and soulless. And even some of the more popular hits and music by quality artists was a bit disappointing. That's why i like the Supremes' stuff, especially MS&S. There's a legitimate effort to create melody with many of their songs. Walking, You keep me moving on, you're what's missing, Don't want to be tied down, let yourself go - although to be honest LYG is more just a feel-good dance tune. Each of these has some attempt at some pretty decent verses and choruses, utilizing some strong backup vocals too. IMO they're not just mindless thumping of the bass beat.

Disco was slandered by white midwest men that felt threatened by this burgeoning music that came from the blacks and gays. And disco didn't help itself by becoming so mainstream that you had parents in Peoria learning to hustle and heading to a local disco. And some of the music frankly was garbage. But there's junk in any and all musical genres too

"i guess we'll have to agree to disagree lolol"...So what else is new?:p

I love the genre of disco. So much music to love IMO. I don't care for what I call the electronic disco, stuff like "I Feel Love" or "Livin, Lovin, Givin". It feels too mechanized and stale rather than utilizing great musicians, maybe combined with a bit of new artificial sounds. There was still quite a bit of soul to disco IMO. So my critique of the Supremes being paired with disco has everything to do with the Supremes' brand and nothing to do with the genre itself. I'll believe in the public accepting disco Supremes as much as I believe they would have accepted disco Beach Boys. When you're as HUGE and iconic as the Supremes, Beach Boys, Elvis, you really can't stray too far away from your brand. Couple that with the general public largely believing the Supremes ceased to exist somewhere around 1971, and not feeling any connection to three nameless, faceless, new Supremes [[even though one was an original), disco Supremes really didn't have a chance in hell. R&B/Pop Supremes was where the money is.

[RanRan79]

we've talked plenty about how the live shows for MSS were a mess. For the Susaye solo, they simply pulled old songs out of their set list like He Aint Heavy and People. Both were old songs jean did. By the end, she was doing that stevie song. But they didn't really let her showcase on a piece that's just perfect for her

like this song. I've never liked this song really but DAMN!!! this is just a stunning performance and shows what could have been done

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xjGRP5nXDtw

I've never liked the song either and Susaye singing it didn't change that. I couldn't make it through the whole thing.

[RanRan79]

Absolutely. The writing was on the wall. I thought that Mary’s solo album would be a continuation of the excellent material she had performed on the last two Supremes albums. She was really coming into her own during that period and had grown in confidence when singing leads. How wrong can you be lol......Huge shame.

Had Motown really, and I mean really, been in her corner, that's exactly what would have happened. Mary had no business singing most of the songs that made up her album. The only cut from that album that I play regularly is "Pick Up the Pieces", as that is exactly the type of music I would've wanted from Mary Wilson at the time, a nice, slow, sexy cut. She plays that role so well and for Motown not to capitalize on it is ludicrous.

[RanRan79]

exactly. that 79 album wasn't Red Hot but rather a Hot Mess. lol

still the 4 Gus songs do definitely show that, given the right material, she was more than just a ballad singer. I wonder if she'd done something more like Martha's solo debut for MCA. something a bit more rock and roll and blues rather than disco and fast. I could hear her doing Storm in my Soul and her Save Me is excellent.

The GD tracks really sound like the basis of what could have been a hit album for Mary.

[RanRan79]

I do agree, though almost any other genre of music would have been better suited to her style of voice then the dreaded disco. I still hold with the theory it was sabotage lol. The Pointer Sisters had an album out in 79 named Priority. Almost every song on it might have been perfect for Mary...

While I agree that the cuts on Priority were a better fit for Mary than most of what ended up on her debut album, this would not have been the direction for her IMO. [[Personally, as a HUGE Pointers fan, Priority is maybe the one album where my attention isn't captured, possibly aside from the fantastic "She's Got the Fever".) I would've liked to have heard Mary doing stuff like Phyllis Hyman's Somewhere In My Lifetime album, minus the dance stuff. Or Brenda Russell's first album.

[RanRan79]

Mary and Scherrie were only 8 months apart . I would call that a bit older lol.

I didn't realize Scherrie was that close in age to Mary! Mary [[and Cindy when she was singing with Scherrie) looks so much like the elder statesman of the group, I never would've guessed Scherrie was basically the same age as Mary. Thanks for the correction. Still my point stands that it seems like Scherrie and Susaye paired up. Mary was the odd woman out. She hadn't had an ally since Cindy.

[RanRan79]

I am learning that you just have to overlook some of the things these guys say. I have known about the Supremes since before they had their first number one on through to when Mary went solo and the group disbanded. I knew of them in real-time and not from reading books years and years later. Yes, both Mary and Scherrie are the same age and were born in 1944.

Marv sit down. I didn't know Scherrie was the same age as Mary. Sue me. You always get shit wrong about the Supremes, so I would think you'd have some compassion.:rolleyes:

[Roberta75]

Marv sit down. I didn't know Scherrie was the same age as Mary. Sue me. You always get shit wrong about the Supremes, so I would think you'd have some compassion.:rolleyes:

In his head he was wardrobe mistress for the Supremes from 1959 until 1977 and he witness everything and knows every Supremes secrets. Hehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehe.

[marv2]

https://youtu.be/DF5peqnyNi4

Thank you for this. I remember her doing this . So very nice!

[thanxal]

I am learning that you just have to overlook some of the things these guys say. I have known about the Supremes since before they had their first number one on through to when Mary went solo and the group disbanded. I knew of them in real-time and not from reading books years and years later. Yes, both Mary and Scherrie are the same age and were born in 1944.
You want a cookie?
At least Ran isn't an insufferable troll.

[BobbyC]

Ran Ran--you really didn't like Priority? Wow--I loved it! Loved Energy too!

[BobbyC]

I love RanRan's posts.

[jobeterob]

You want a cookie?
At least Ran isn't an insufferable troll.

He, being Marv, skipped the part about all Supremes avoiding him like the plague, Mary included - and knowing their ages hadn’t changed that

[Ollie9]

Ollie--Priority is one of my all time favorite albums. Who Do Ya Love?

It’s a really solid album Bobby that has stood the test of time. Though essentially a light rock orientated set, it has a bluesy feel to it. Favourite songs, “Dreaming As One” [[Stunning ballad) and “She’s Got The Fever”. Something like this album with a few more ballads thrown in would have been perfect for Mary. That debut album was the worst mistake of her career..........alas.

[RanRan79]

You want a cookie?
At least Ran isn't an insufferable troll.

Your half right Al. Your half right.:p

[RanRan79]

Ran Ran--you really didn't like Priority? Wow--I loved it! Loved Energy too!

Of the Planet albums, the first two, Energy and Priority, just don't do it for me. I'm not crazy about the Pointers with the rock edge. The next four Planet albums I really like or really love.

[RanRan79]

I love RanRan's posts.

Thanks Bobby. Everybody starts out liking my posts. The feeling will eventually fade away.:p

[RanRan79]

It’s a really solid album Bobby that has stood the test of time. Though essentially a light rock orientated set, it has a bluesy feel to it. Favourite songs, “Dreaming As One” [[Stunning ballad) and “She’s Got The Fever”. Something like this album with a few more ballads thrown in would have been perfect for Mary. That debut album was the worst mistake of her career..........alas.

"The Fever" is the bomb. I love to hear Ruth sing. Energy went gold, and I'm guessing that was on the strength of "Fire", which is a helluva song. But this change in sound I really don't think served the Pointers well with the public, hence why Priority flopped. Now in my mind, if any artists as soulful and pliable between genres as the Pointers couldn't turn Priority into a decent seller, Mary Wilson didn't have a chance in hell. Do I think Richard Perry would have been a perfect producer for Mary? Yeah, I think he could've given her a classic album as long as he focused on her strengths. I think these types of songs [[that the Pointers were doing in the late 70s) would have exposed Mary's weaknesses more than anything. And it's not like Mary didn't have the ability to go hard. She could. Listen to her "Save Me", she isn't half steppin with that one and it works. I just don't hear her on those rocker cuts. Mary has a very specific voice and IMO when she strays outside of a certain zone, there's a "tell her to PLEASE stop it" feeling that has a tendency to come over the listener.:D

[Ollie9]

"The Fever" is the bomb. I love to hear Ruth sing. Energy went gold, and I'm guessing that was on the strength of "Fire", which is a helluva song. But this change in sound I really don't think served the Pointers well with the public, hence why Priority flopped. Now in my mind, if any artists as soulful and pliable between genres as the Pointers couldn't turn Priority into a decent seller, Mary Wilson didn't have a chance in hell. Do I think Richard Perry would have been a perfect producer for Mary? Yeah, I think he could've given her a classic album as long as he focused on her strengths. I think these types of songs [[that the Pointers were doing in the late 70s) would have exposed Mary's weaknesses more than anything. And it's not like Mary didn't have the ability to go hard. She could. Listen to her "Save Me", she isn't half steppin with that one and it works. I just don't hear her on those rocker cuts. Mary has a very specific voice and IMO when she strays outside of a certain zone, there's a "tell her to PLEASE stop it" feeling that has a tendency to come over the listener.:D

“Priority” is probably my favourite Pointer Sisters album. One must Remember some of the best albums ever have not sold by the truck load.
I agree that Richard Perry might perhaps have been a good fit for Mary. Unlike Diana, unless the song is tailor made for her voice she can sound weak and ineffective. Her sound is not really a natural for the pop market. That is not where she shines.
For that 79 album there should have been a little light rock, a spoonful of R & B, a pinch of jazz and those all important ballads. This was the way to go. After this, perhaps moving more towards standards and jazz. Disco was career suicide as in square peg round hole. One can keep those warm summer nights lol.

[RanRan79]

“Priority” is probably my favourite Pointer Sisters album. One must Remember some of the best albums ever have not sold by the truck load.
I agree that Richard Perry might perhaps have been a good fit for Mary. Unlike Diana, unless the song is tailor made for her voice she can sound weak and ineffective. Her sound is not really a natural for the pop market. That is not where she shines.
For that 79 album there should have been a little light rock, a spoonful of R & B, a pinch of jazz and those all important ballads. This was the way to go. After this, perhaps moving more towards standards and jazz. Disco was career suicide as in square peg round hole. One can keep those warm summer nights lol.

If we were talking favorites and what we like, well anything goes. I couldn't care less about something being successful or not, just as long as I like it. But for Mary's debut, she needed hits, she needed visibility, she needed to succeed. So in that regard, I think any conversation about what Mary's debut album should've been like should keep in mind what was going to help her achieve the greatest success. I don't think Priority would have done that for Mary, just like it didn't do it for the Pointers.

But I definitely agree, some of the best music is never very successful with the general public. Many of my favs were not.

[marv2]

If we were talking favorites and what we like, well anything goes. I couldn't care less about something being successful or not, just as long as I like it. But for Mary's debut, she needed hits, she needed visibility, she needed to succeed. So in that regard, I think any conversation about what Mary's debut album should've been like should keep in mind what was going to help her achieve the greatest success. I don't think Priority would have done that for Mary, just like it didn't do it for the Pointers.

But I definitely agree, some of the best music is never very successful with the general public. Many of my favs were not.

I heard recently from someone that was in the studio on a couple of the nights that Mary was laying down vocals for her debut album that the best ones were not even included on the album when it was released! There were more than a few people that were there on the nights they were recording it that were surprised.

[BobbyC]

I thought Mary's first solo LP was terrible. Aside from Summer Night and Pick Up the Pieces, I couldn't even name another song on it. Okay maybe Red Hot. That song was IMO a Hot Mess.

[sup_fan]

I have the album on cassette tape which i got in the 80s. but i might have listened to it 1x? maybe 2X?

completely agree the material was totally wrong for her. Red Hot is dreadful IMO and her "owwwwws" and all are just wrong. PUTP is ok but frankly i've never really cared for it. but agree it's much more in her wheelhouse. the live version is a little better

although the lyrics are rather simple, Midnight Dancer sounds much better than Red Hot.

we've all talked about how the Gus tracks were much more appropriate. but here's another idea. what about something funkier and slower? maybe not totally like Tell Me Something Good but you get what i'm saying. Mr Boogie was a rather halfwit of a song but the style and sound wasn't terrible. just the lyric. Mary will always be the "sexy one" so make her a bit more like that on vinyl.

[BobbyC]

I agree. Mr Boogie is almost camp, it's so bad. If someone brought me that song to sing I'd tell him or her to F off.

[daviddh]

I liked....loved the Pointer sisters Energy album but not so much on Priority....will have another listen....
I did like who do you love
All your love and don't let a thief steal your heart

[RanRan79]

I heard recently from someone that was in the studio on a couple of the nights that Mary was laying down vocals for her debut album that the best ones were not even included on the album when it was released! There were more than a few people that were there on the nights they were recording it that were surprised.

Hopefully an expanded edition of Mary's album will get a release. I imagine she recorded other tunes, and sometimes what's left off is better than what makes the actual album, whatever the reason. That's how I feel about the Supremes R&H album. To me the best stuff was left in the vault while the inferior songs, with a few exceptions, made the album.

[RanRan79]

I have the album on cassette tape which i got in the 80s. but i might have listened to it 1x? maybe 2X?

completely agree the material was totally wrong for her. Red Hot is dreadful IMO and her "owwwwws" and all are just wrong. PUTP is ok but frankly i've never really cared for it. but agree it's much more in her wheelhouse. the live version is a little better

although the lyrics are rather simple, Midnight Dancer sounds much better than Red Hot.

we've all talked about how the Gus tracks were much more appropriate. but here's another idea. what about something funkier and slower? maybe not totally like Tell Me Something Good but you get what i'm saying. Mr Boogie was a rather halfwit of a song but the style and sound wasn't terrible. just the lyric. Mary will always be the "sexy one" so make her a bit more like that on vinyl.

I agree. Mary on "Boogie" sounds very good, so that's definitely a vein I could hear her in.