The Supremes Mary Wilson Cindy Birdsong Jean Terrell,It's Time To Break Down/Stone Lo

[marv2]

This is the performance that was talked about all over town the following day:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d9L4_AvLfEM

[luke]

Thanks Marv. One of their best!

[marv2]

Thanks Marv. One of their best!

You're most welcome Luke. It absolutely was. Few people know that they "borrowed" from this particular appearance for a scene in the original Broadway production of "Dreamgirls". I also recall the DJ's on the former KISS-FM in NYC talking about it on the air as late as 2000.

[sup_fan]

Was Time To Break Down getting much airplay during this time? i know we fans love the song. such a departure for the girls.

[ejluther]

SO great!!!

[daviddh]

One of my fav performances of them.
Love both songs.

[dickiemint]

I wish that the 70s Supremes could of concentrated on they own material for their live show and dropped the show tunes and sped up medley , I believe they could of been more successful .

[Bluebrock]

I wish that the 70s Supremes could of concentrated on they own material for their live show and dropped the show tunes and sped up medley , I believe they could of been more successful .

Totally agree. I was so disappointed by the lack of their own hits yet their set was awash with covers and showtunes. It is little wonder they went downhill as quickly as they did

[sup_fan]

but keep in mind some of our fav 70s material from them is hard to properly duplicate live. Stoned Love was certainly a highlight of their live shows but the live version pales drastically next to the glorious album version. Nathan Jones never sounded right live. And this one performance of Time To Break Down is not one of their best. the album track is stunning but it's also mostly a studio production. The girls sing of course but it's hardly the most complex or groundbreaking lyric or melody. it's the overall magic of the album production

Same with the disco hits. LYG, Sweet Dream, Driving, HE - none of the live versions some close to the studio. And even if they slowed them down to the proper tempos and all.

[danman869]

I love the three-part harmony by the Girls on "We've Only Just Begun" here. They look good, move smoothly, and sound terrific--and I'd almost say that Cindy gets to be the "featured" vocalist here [[don't read too much into that--I mean words and partial lines). I see it as a continued part of the concept taken in early 1970 that Mary and Cindy didn't have to just stand there, sway, sing, and smile. Anyway, I know that many would've preferred that The Supremes would have sung their own material [[singles and album tracks) during concert and TV appearances--and I would've loved that idea, too--but I think during TV appearances it may have been smarter to include songs like WOJB because those songs were HUGE hits of the time. The Supremes always sang standards and, by the early 1970s, the shift to singing popular songs of the day [[rather than supper club-style standards) seemed to have taken hold. Plus, in those days [[like now), people watching TV could've easily changed the channel if they were bored by what they were seeing--or get up and grab something to eat/drink. Any savvy entertainer[[s) would've gone for what would keep eyeballs on them for the entire appearance.

Also, while I really enjoy "It's Time To Break Down" as a song, I've never felt it had single potential. That they sang it at all on network TV says something about what the group's management felt about the song, what the show's producers may have felt about the song, and possibly even what the Girls themselves felt about the song. It doesn't seem that they were there to promote "Stoned Love" specifically [[but they weren't foolish and did interpolate it during the latter half of ITTBD), but they may have been testing the waters to see what kind of reaction there was to ITTBD. That said, IMO, it was never a great choice for a single. B-side? Sure. I just wonder if there was another track from the "New Ways" album that might have been a better choice for TV. Still gentle and slow to show a sensual side, but clearly Motown. What about "Shine On Me"? They still could've inserted "Stoned Love" into it. Woulda-coulda-shoulda, but... I think there were one or two better options for TV performance from "New Ways" and someone chose the wrong song.

[dickiemint]

I always thought that 'I wish I were your Mirror ' from the New Ways album would of been a good concert opening for the 70s Supremes, I for one think that if they had a bit more backing from Motown they could have had a legacy as good as the 60s group.

[thommg]

I always thought that Thank Him For Today or Is There A Place would have been good singles.

[sup_fan]

Together We Can Make would have been an excellent single. Thank Him and Shine On Me are my next two choices

[benross]

It was great to hear Cindy clearly here, and she seemed to be at the height of her beauty; the first look, with the swept-back, longer hair, accentuated her face especially well. If I recall correctly, she wore a similar style for her wedding and, per the photos, looked extraordinary then. And Jean, too, looked best with the hairstyle in this clip. Mary's most appealing long-hair look was in TCB, but the 'do she sports in this broadcast is also flattering. These fresh coifs enabled the group to look put-together, yet natural and contemporary. Had they worn similar long hairstyles consistently for the next few years -- and had they stuck with simpler, less sequined gowns -- they may have seemed more relevant, and less like relics of the last decade, for a much longer period. Too, while they adapted their sound somewhat for the changing time, they should have concentrated more on developing a consistent style in their appearance and tone. As the '70s wore on, it became less and less easy to identify the members [[even before the actual members did change over and over) because they had no longer had any visual or musical identity.

[marybrewster]

Totally agree. I was so disappointed by the lack of their own hits yet their set was awash with covers and showtunes. It is little wonder they went downhill as quickly as they did

The other day I ran across a clip of Lynda leading on "You're Nobody 'til Somebody Loves You". I don't recall if Jean was in the group, or if this was a Mary, Cindy, Lynda lineup. Regardless, it was almost uncomfortable listening to it. Maybe embarrassing is a better word? By 1972/1973, the showtunes should have been ditched.

While I'm on it, it's always been peculiar to me that regardless of 70s lineup, there seemed to be so many cover songs included in concert. "I'll Take You There", "He Ain't Heavy", etc. With such a vast catalog of songs, why feature hits by others?

[sup_fan]

i think as Dan mentioned, cover tunes were extremely common at this time. Especially in a Vegas act. The girls were still frequently playing this old supper clubs so their shows there were still relevant.

the problem is that these clubs were declining in overall popularity and younger audiences and stadium crowds were increasing. and in these types of venues, you're right - the covers and cornball stage patter comes across very dated and out of touch.

Same with the outfits. Vegas def still needed glitz and glam. but for the other dates, they could have explored more hip and contemporary.

it's almost like they needed Show A and Show B with different set lists, choreography, etc.

[sup_fan]

It was great to hear Cindy clearly here, and she seemed to be at the height of her beauty; the first look, with the swept-back, longer hair, accentuated her face especially well. If I recall correctly, she wore a similar style for her wedding and, per the photos, looked extraordinary then. And Jean, too, looked best with the hairstyle in this clip. Mary's most appealing long-hair look was in TCB, but the 'do she sports in this broadcast is also flattering. These fresh coifs enabled the group to look put-together, yet natural and contemporary. Had they worn similar long hairstyles consistently for the next few years -- and had they stuck with simpler, less sequined gowns -- they may have seemed more relevant, and less like relics of the last decade, for a much longer period. Too, while they adapted their sound somewhat for the changing time, they should have concentrated more on developing a consistent style in their appearance and tone. As the '70s wore on, it became less and less easy to identify the members [[even before the actual members did change over and over) because they had no longer had any visual or musical identity.

the look the girls had for Central Park in summer 71 was fabulous. the fringed mini dresses, hair pulled back and special silver hair ornaments and jewelry commissioned. very hip. the set list is pretty good although it still has more standards than needed.

[rod_rick]

Didn't Jean have an issue singing the 60's supremes songs. Also what stadium were the ladies playing in the 70's? They were a club act. I agree they should've had more than one show and less cover songs. Not sure of their set list through out the 70s but from what I've heard central park, was one of the best shows

[Bluebrock]

Didn't Jean have an issue singing the 60's supremes songs. Also what stadium were the ladies playing in the 70's? They were a club act. I agree they should've had more than one show and less cover songs. Not sure of their set list through out the 70s but from what I've heard central park, was one of the best shows

Yes she did, but she knew they were an important part of the Supremes legacy. Her main problem was being on the road 40 weeks per year working with people whom she did not get along with. It cannot have been easy for either party.

[sup_fan]

Didn't Jean have an issue singing the 60's supremes songs. Also what stadium were the ladies playing in the 70's? They were a club act. I agree they should've had more than one show and less cover songs. Not sure of their set list through out the 70s but from what I've heard central park, was one of the best shows

no that's my point - the girls didn't do lots of big stadium style gigs. not sure if Diana did at the time either. did the temps? I know Stevie broke into that, especially during his tour with the Stones.

And i sort of mentioned "stadiums" and "arenas" to mean the bigger rock gigs that young people were going to. sort of more a general terms for the college/young adult market

[sup_fan]

Yes she did, but she knew they were an important part of the Supremes legacy. Her main problem was being on the road 40 weeks per year working with people whom she did not get along with. It cannot have been easy for either party.

and also she was frustrated that the 70s songs were relegated to medleys, other than Stoned Love and maybe their current single.

Tony Turner [[and this is certainly not a perfect source) mentioned how L and J wanted to change the image and style of the group. go more r&b. i would guess that would mean dropped more of the corny stage age and showtunes.

[Ollie9]

and also she was frustrated that the 70s songs were relegated to medleys, other than Stoned Love and maybe their current single.

Tony Turner [[and this is certainly not a perfect source) mentioned how L and J wanted to change the image and style of the group. go more r&b. i would guess that would mean dropped more of the corny stage age and showtunes.

If that were the case then they were spot on. All the show tunes should have been dumped and replaced with full versions of their 70’s hits and/or album cuts. I would certainly ditch the 60’s Supremes medley and have Mary and Scherrie each perform a revamped, reimagined version of a 60 ‘s hit instead.
A slight change of name, perhaps to The New Supremes would also have helped to establish their new sound and identity with the general public. In short they needed to move forward, not hang onto to the old.

[blackguy69]

I’ve heard the full 71 show and it definitely wasn’t a DRATS show. It was pretty updated.

the look the girls had for Central Park in summer 71 was fabulous. the fringed mini dresses, hair pulled back and special silver hair ornaments and jewelry commissioned. very hip. the set list is pretty good although it still has more standards than needed.

[marybrewster]

i think as Dan mentioned, cover tunes were extremely common at this time. Especially in a Vegas act. The girls were still frequently playing this old supper clubs so their shows there were still relevant.

the problem is that these clubs were declining in overall popularity and younger audiences and stadium crowds were increasing. and in these types of venues, you're right - the covers and cornball stage patter comes across very dated and out of touch.

Same with the outfits. Vegas def still needed glitz and glam. but for the other dates, they could have explored more hip and contemporary.

it's almost like they needed Show A and Show B with different set lists, choreography, etc.

While showtunes might have been acceptable for Vegas, at the very least they could have upgraded to something more contemporary. "SOMEBODY LOVES YOU" had been in the act for almost a decade by then. It's shocking they weren't still doing "MAME".

JESUS CHRIST SUPERSTAR was huge in 1971. Same with GODSPELL. Certainly something could have been plucked from the score.

[marybrewster]

If that were the case then they were spot on. All the show tunes should have been dumped and replaced with full versions of their 70’s hits and/or album cuts. I would certainly ditch the 60’s Supremes medley and have Mary and Scherrie each perform a revamped, reimagined version of a 60 ‘s hit instead.
A slight change of name, perhaps to The New Supremes would also have helped to establish their new sound and identity with the general public. In short they needed to move forward, not hang onto to the old.

I agree. "The New Supremes" might have given them an extra boost. Much like The New Seekers.

[sup_fan]

If that were the case then they were spot on. All the show tunes should have been dumped and replaced with full versions of their 70’s hits and/or album cuts. I would certainly ditch the 60’s Supremes medley and have Mary and Scherrie each perform a revamped, reimagined version of a 60 ‘s hit instead.
A slight change of name, perhaps to The New Supremes would also have helped to establish their new sound and identity with the general public. In short they needed to move forward, not hang onto to the old.

they sort of did that name change in 70 back to The Supremes. it wasn't official [[as in being printed on the record labels) but in PR, magazines, tv spots, they referred to themselves as the NEW supremes

[sup_fan]

in summer 71, the Central Park set list was:

Intro medley: Feeling Good, Loving Country, Together we can make such sweet music
We've only just begun
60s medley
Love Story
River Deep
Love the one you're with
Can't take my eyes off you/quiet nights
everybody's got the right
nathan jones
People [[jean solo)
Stoned love
Revival/O Happy Day

[sup_fan]

The Aug 72 show at Valley Forge while on tour with the Temps:

TCB
60s medley
Your wonderful sweet love
It's alright with me
Stoned love
can't take my eyes/quiet nights
love the one you're with
60s medley 2
lean on me
everybody's got the right
He aint heavy
you're nobody till somebody
somewhere
I'm gonna mak you love you
rhythm of life



The Dec 72 show at the Apollo was [[and they did multiple but shorter shows)

TCB
60s medley
Can't take my eyes/Quiet night
stoned love
I guess i'll miss the mane
60s medley #2
He's ain't heavy [[jean solo)
revival/love train/oh happy day

[detmotownguy]

but keep in mind some of our fav 70s material from them is hard to properly duplicate live. Stoned Love was certainly a highlight of their live shows but the live version pales drastically next to the glorious album version. Nathan Jones never sounded right live. And this one performance of Time To Break Down is not one of their best. the album track is stunning but it's also mostly a studio production. The girls sing of course but it's hardly the most complex or groundbreaking lyric or melody. it's the overall magic of the album production

Same with the disco hits. LYG, Sweet Dream, Driving, HE - none of the live versions some close to the studio. And even if they slowed them down to the proper tempos and all.


I heard Mary sing a damn good version Nathan a few years ago. It could have been a symphony concert. The part where she does the "hoo hoo" was especially haunting as it was exactly like the studio cut. I wish they ditched the show tunes and dressed more contemporary. I thought for a while they were going to a more rock orientated sound that suited me fine. I guess they were caught between the wants "older fans" while trying to attract newer fans. They had been at this for over a decade so they still had to please their original fan base.

[sup_fan]

I heard Mary sing a damn good version Nathan a few years ago. It could have been a symphony concert. The part where she does the "hoo hoo" was especially haunting as it was exactly like the studio cut. I wish they ditched the show tunes and dressed more contemporary. I thought for a while they were going to a more rock orientated sound that suited me fine. I guess they were caught between the wants "older fans" while trying to attract newer fans. They had been at this for over a decade so they still had to please their original fan base.

yes but their original fan base from the 60s [[those who would have been early teens buying Back In My Arms and You Can't Hurry Love) would now be in college or in their early 20s. And new younger fans in 1970 and 71 would have been eager for a new more modern approach than the cutesy-pie ditties of the 60s and You're Nobody Till Somebody.

I think some of the things they did in the early 70s were somewhat modern, or at least first baby steps towards that. but then it's like the got nervous and backtracked

Some of the Jean-era outfits are pretty hot - the green fringe pantsuits from Tom Jones, the red and blue halter top and hot pants from Flip Wilson, the white fringe mini dresses from Central Park

[marybrewster]

So the question is:

The consensus is that the Supremes needed the gowns and the showtunes and the slick moves for Vegas. How many times did they ACTUALLY play Vegas? I could see this type of show spilling into the Copa/Supper Club setting, but weren't most gigs state fairs and college campuses?

[floyjoy678]

I really think Mary just loved dressing up like that whether it was the popular thing to do at the time or not. She made excuses for it but as others have pointed out, they were lame excuses. By her own admission Mary was a girly-girl. She wrote and has said that she loved the gowns, make up, etc. I think she was just doing what she wanted to do regardless.

[sup_fan]

I really think Mary just loved dressing up like that whether it was the popular thing to do at the time or not. She made excuses for it but as others have pointed out, they were lame excuses. By her own admission Mary was a girly-girl. She wrote and has said that she loved the gowns, make up, etc. I think she was just doing what she wanted to do regardless.

i think a lot of the Supremes image was based on Diana and Mary. both were really into style, fashion, glamour. I don't know who made final decisions on things regarding stagewear, style, live show set lists, etc. By Mary's own admission, she began taking on more of these responsibilities in the 70s. But not sure about during the Jean years just how much she was. Certainly during the Scherrie era it was really all Mary's design.

Mary really loved the glam image of the group and i think that was something she held onto. Once established, it's hard to change as people expect it. look at some of the MJL fashions - the chiffon gowns on Kate Smith, the red floral gowns they wore with the Temps in LA at The Grove. they were definitely NOT overly glam or sequined and they didn't really seem to go over that well. of course that doesn't mean they couldn't have continued to explore or find better options that weren't to glitz.

[marybrewster]

Mary did love to live like it was 1966 and the champagne was still flowing.

[RanRan79]

To be honest, I think there's too much finger pointing at the live shows. The truth is, how much of the record buying public went to see their favorite artists in concert anyway? Wouldn't it be safe to say that most of the people who bought the singles and albums of the 60s Supremes never even saw them in person? Wouldn't that same thing go for the 70s Supremes?

The live shows were certainly important. There was a lot of money to be made on the road. And the best live acts usually got the best money. The 70s Supremes needed to revamp the live act, no doubt about it. But the more I think about it, the more I realize that all the talk about the live shows is nitpicking. And I don't mean that as an insult to anyone participating in the conversation. Like I said, I'm in agreement that the live act needed to be re-worked a ton. But the real problem was material. The 70s Supremes could've had the hottest live act in the world, but the story would've turned out the same if we're talking the same singles and albums. They needed material for radio that was going to knock the public's socks off, and that rarely happened, and when it did it was early on in the post Diana period.

Glammed up, glammed down, too much Mary, not enough Mary, too many showtunes, not enough showtunes, it wouldn't have mattered much if the group couldn't score major hits. The rest of the issues are distractions because none of those things would really have solved the problem. I'm convinced now more than ever before that there was no one at Motown who was really in a position to give the Supremes material that was going to return them to the top. The writers and producers who could do it were outside the company and either Motown didn't give a shit or it never occurred to them to seek someone outside the label for the Supremes. The talent was there, the chemistry was there, but the hit songs were missing.

[blackguy69]

You took the words right out of my mouth.
To be honest, I think there's too much finger pointing at the live shows. The truth is, how much of the record buying public went to see their favorite artists in concert anyway? Wouldn't it be safe to say that most of the people who bought the singles and albums of the 60s Supremes never even saw them in person? Wouldn't that same thing go for the 70s Supremes?

The live shows were certainly important. There was a lot of money to be made on the road. And the best live acts usually got the best money. The 70s Supremes needed to revamp the live act, no doubt about it. But the more I think about it, the more I realize that all the talk about the live shows is nitpicking. And I don't mean that as an insult to anyone participating in the conversation. Like I said, I'm in agreement that the live act needed to be re-worked a ton. But the real problem was material. The 70s Supremes could've had the hottest live act in the world, but the story would've turned out the same if we're talking the same singles and albums. They needed material for radio that was going to knock the public's socks off, and that rarely happened, and when it did it was early on in the post Diana period.

Glammed up, glammed down, too much Mary, not enough Mary, too many showtunes, not enough showtunes, it wouldn't have mattered much if the group couldn't score major hits. The rest of the issues are distractions because none of those things would really have solved the problem. I'm convinced now more than ever before that there was no one at Motown who was really in a position to give the Supremes material that was going to return them to the top. The writers and producers who could do it were outside the company and either Motown didn't give a shit or it never occurred to them to seek someone outside the label for the Supremes. The talent was there, the chemistry was there, but the hit songs were missing.

[PeaceNHarmony]

I always thought that 'I wish I were your Mirror ' from the New Ways album would of been a good concert opening for the 70s Supremes, I for one think that if they had a bit more backing from Motown they could have had a legacy as good as the 60s group.Yes, 'Mirror' would have been a great opening song.

[Spreadinglove21]

How many regular musicians toured with the Supremes? Besides their conductor, how many other musicians were a part of their regular band? And what percentage were pick up musicians at the locale they were playing? Based on what I've heard they always had a Vegas style big band up there playing. Maybe one of the elements of updating the show could have been cutting down to Guitar/bass/drums/keyboards and a 4 piece horn section? May not have produced the full sound of their Motown hits, but might have something to consider.

[Ollie9]

I agree. "The New Supremes" might have given them an extra boost. Much like The New Seekers.

Funnily enough I was thinking of The New Seekers when I posted.
IMO, with the vast majority of joe public the name Supremes will always be associated with Diana Ross. That’s why a name change to The New Supremes would have declared to the world this was a new sound and identity, not a continuation of the Diana led years with a different lead singer.
Other then mega stars, hit singles are of course the life blood for any group or solo act. Is it possible that had the group created a completely new identity form the off, some of those records might have sold better then they did.. “SL” alone should have gone mega.
As it was, it seemed the group were often trying to live up to the expectations of their 60’s heyday, or attempting to breakaway from the long shadow that DR undoubtedly cast.

[sup_fan]

To be honest, I think there's too much finger pointing at the live shows. The truth is, how much of the record buying public went to see their favorite artists in concert anyway? Wouldn't it be safe to say that most of the people who bought the singles and albums of the 60s Supremes never even saw them in person? Wouldn't that same thing go for the 70s Supremes?

The live shows were certainly important. There was a lot of money to be made on the road. And the best live acts usually got the best money. The 70s Supremes needed to revamp the live act, no doubt about it. But the more I think about it, the more I realize that all the talk about the live shows is nitpicking. And I don't mean that as an insult to anyone participating in the conversation. Like I said, I'm in agreement that the live act needed to be re-worked a ton. But the real problem was material. The 70s Supremes could've had the hottest live act in the world, but the story would've turned out the same if we're talking the same singles and albums. They needed material for radio that was going to knock the public's socks off, and that rarely happened, and when it did it was early on in the post Diana period.

Glammed up, glammed down, too much Mary, not enough Mary, too many showtunes, not enough showtunes, it wouldn't have mattered much if the group couldn't score major hits. The rest of the issues are distractions because none of those things would really have solved the problem. I'm convinced now more than ever before that there was no one at Motown who was really in a position to give the Supremes material that was going to return them to the top. The writers and producers who could do it were outside the company and either Motown didn't give a shit or it never occurred to them to seek someone outside the label for the Supremes. The talent was there, the chemistry was there, but the hit songs were missing.

actually the supremes did LOTS of shows and at venues that were readily accessible to the general public. Forrest Hills stadium, college dates, Steel Pier, the apollo, central park

In 71 the girls played a range of dates and my list is quite incomplete - Blossom Music Center in Cuyahoga Falls, Ohio, Schafer Music Festival, Athletics and Convocation Center in South Bend, IN. Plus playing Palisades Amusement Park, Magic Mountain, Disney Resorts,

yes the girls continued to play the bigger club rooms and all where the crowds were mostly older. But that's also part of my point of my complaint about motown's strategy for the group. I think they should have done more package revues again with Gladys Knight, Stevie, The Sups, etc. Those could have commanded the big convention centers and stadiums, playing for thousands of teens and college students.

There has been fan discussion over the years of the Sups on Jesse Jackson's Operation Push in 72. there's video footage of the J5 and GKATPs and their sets are wonderful. But supposedly the Supremes did that Cabaret medley like they did on their Japanese live album, other showtunes and stuff. and the crowd wasn't very receptive

[danman869]

To be honest, I think there's too much finger pointing at the live shows. The truth is, how much of the record buying public went to see their favorite artists in concert anyway? Wouldn't it be safe to say that most of the people who bought the singles and albums of the 60s Supremes never even saw them in person? Wouldn't that same thing go for the 70s Supremes?

The live shows were certainly important. There was a lot of money to be made on the road. And the best live acts usually got the best money. The 70s Supremes needed to revamp the live act, no doubt about it. But the more I think about it, the more I realize that all the talk about the live shows is nitpicking. And I don't mean that as an insult to anyone participating in the conversation. Like I said, I'm in agreement that the live act needed to be re-worked a ton. But the real problem was material. The 70s Supremes could've had the hottest live act in the world, but the story would've turned out the same if we're talking the same singles and albums. They needed material for radio that was going to knock the public's socks off, and that rarely happened, and when it did it was early on in the post Diana period.

Glammed up, glammed down, too much Mary, not enough Mary, too many showtunes, not enough showtunes, it wouldn't have mattered much if the group couldn't score major hits. The rest of the issues are distractions because none of those things would really have solved the problem. I'm convinced now more than ever before that there was no one at Motown who was really in a position to give the Supremes material that was going to return them to the top. The writers and producers who could do it were outside the company and either Motown didn't give a shit or it never occurred to them to seek someone outside the label for the Supremes. The talent was there, the chemistry was there, but the hit songs were missing.

Yes, yes--a thousand times--yes to all you said, RanRan.

[marybrewster]

Truth is, the Supremes should have focused less on the US and more on the UK. Mary herself said the UK fans embraced the Supremes in the 70s tenfold than in the US.

The Three Degrees JUMPED on that bandwagon; had hits throughout the 70's overseas and are still to this day HUMONGOUS in Japan. They LOVE their ooohs and aaahs!

[blackguy69]

It’s interesting that you said that because according to a few sources is that Diana gotten the older crowd ant Mary and the girls were grabbing more of the kids and more of us [[black folks) were rediscovering the girls.


actually the supremes did LOTS of shows and at venues that were readily accessible to the general public. Forrest Hills stadium, college dates, Steel Pier, the apollo, central park

In 71 the girls played a range of dates and my list is quite incomplete - Blossom Music Center in Cuyahoga Falls, Ohio, Schafer Music Festival, Athletics and Convocation Center in South Bend, IN. Plus playing Palisades Amusement Park, Magic Mountain, Disney Resorts,

yes the girls continued to play the bigger club rooms and all where the crowds were mostly older. But that's also part of my point of my complaint about motown's strategy for the group. I think they should have done more package revues again with Gladys Knight, Stevie, The Sups, etc. Those could have commanded the big convention centers and stadiums, playing for thousands of teens and college students.

There has been fan discussion over the years of the Sups on Jesse Jackson's Operation Push in 72. there's video footage of the J5 and GKATPs and their sets are wonderful. But supposedly the Supremes did that Cabaret medley like they did on their Japanese live album, other showtunes and stuff. and the crowd wasn't very receptive

[jobeterob]

actually the supremes did LOTS of shows and at venues that were readily accessible to the general public. Forrest Hills stadium, college dates, Steel Pier, the apollo, central park

In 71 the girls played a range of dates and my list is quite incomplete - Blossom Music Center in Cuyahoga Falls, Ohio, Schafer Music Festival, Athletics and Convocation Center in South Bend, IN. Plus playing Palisades Amusement Park, Magic Mountain, Disney Resorts,

yes the girls continued to play the bigger club rooms and all where the crowds were mostly older. But that's also part of my point of my complaint about motown's strategy for the group. I think they should have done more package revues again with Gladys Knight, Stevie, The Sups, etc. Those could have commanded the big convention centers and stadiums, playing for thousands of teens and college students.

There has been fan discussion over the years of the Sups on Jesse Jackson's Operation Push in 72. there's video footage of the J5 and GKATPs and their sets are wonderful. But supposedly the Supremes did that Cabaret medley like they did on their Japanese live album, other showtunes and stuff. and the crowd wasn't very receptive

Looking back, I can understand why after 1972, the Supremes weren't singing their latest release - because most of them were not successful enough. But there seemed to be very little planning and preparation - why would you go to Operation Push and sing the Cabaret Medley? It makes no sense. All it showed was a group out of touch and on the downward slide.

[blackguy69]

They always did their latest releases after 72 regardless of where on the charts they were. I’ve heard they did their club act for the kids not sure how true or false since there’s no record of it.
but if they did , wrong move.

Looking back, I can understand why after 1972, the Supremes weren't singing their latest release - because most of them were not successful enough. But there seemed to be very little planning and preparation - why would you go to Operation Push and sing the Cabaret Medley? It makes no sense. All it showed was a group out of touch and on the downward slide.

[sup_fan]

Looking back, I can understand why after 1972, the Supremes weren't singing their latest release - because most of them were not successful enough. But there seemed to be very little planning and preparation - why would you go to Operation Push and sing the Cabaret Medley? It makes no sense. All it showed was a group out of touch and on the downward slide.

that's sort of my overall point here. I'm not sure if it was the girls, the manager, motown overall. or all of the above. i've mentioned it on here a bunch and it still baffles me that there didn't seem to be more coordination between release schedule, tv dates and live shows. it's really almost as if the recording and releases were all in 1 corporate silo and the tour planning and all was a totally different silo.

with NW, Touch, FJ, etc you could have easily revamped the show with new content from the singles and albums, new additional material that was appropriate for the tour and album, sets and costumes, etc.

for instance, with Floy Joy you could have done a marvelous job of some new costumes that aligned with the album art. They often wore 2 or 3 in a show so if you had 6 or 7 sets, you'd be covered. white, reds, pinks. some matching some not.

And what a perfect way to promote the album by incorporating a Smokey medley. I could see opening the show with YWSSL The band is on stage and jamming on the intro. there's a white set backdrop with a center panel with Floy Joy on it in red. Then the panel could open or rotate and there are the girls in white outfits and the white & red patio table set up. They descend a few stairs from that platform to start singing the opening number.

[sup_fan]

They always did their latest releases after 72 regardless of where on the charts they were. I’ve heard they did their club act for the kids not sure how true or false since there’s no record of it.
but if they did , wrong move.

the Valley Forge show with the Temps included only the most recent - YWSSL. but they did do a few more full versions of the 70s music. Stoned Love and Everybody. but that's only 3 70s songs

I wonder if on the Japan album there are a few more songs on the setlist but were cut from the lp. I'd guess they did You're Nobody. wonder if I Guess I'll Miss The Man was still in the act? The version live at the Apollo was lovely

[danman869]

that's sort of my overall point here. I'm not sure if it was the girls, the manager, motown overall. or all of the above. i've mentioned it on here a bunch and it still baffles me that there didn't seem to be more coordination between release schedule, tv dates and live shows. it's really almost as if the recording and releases were all in 1 corporate silo and the tour planning and all was a totally different silo.

with NW, Touch, FJ, etc you could have easily revamped the show with new content from the singles and albums, new additional material that was appropriate for the tour and album, sets and costumes, etc.

for instance, with Floy Joy you could have done a marvelous job of some new costumes that aligned with the album art. They often wore 2 or 3 in a show so if you had 6 or 7 sets, you'd be covered. white, reds, pinks. some matching some not.

And what a perfect way to promote the album by incorporating a Smokey medley. I could see opening the show with YWSSL The band is on stage and jamming on the intro. there's a white set backdrop with a center panel with Floy Joy on it in red. Then the panel could open or rotate and there are the girls in white outfits and the white & red patio table set up. They descend a few stairs from that platform to start singing the opening number.

Grant, I absolutely don't disagree with your opinion and great ideas here, but I think the problem was: MONEY. Diana *might* have gotten that kind of budget [including rotating sets], but I would think by 1972 that money for that kind of thing [especially with the singles chart performances starting to slide] just wasn't there. I have to wonder, as well, whether or not in 1972, if/when Diana was on stage, whether or not she had/would've had that kind of presentation. For years, the Supremes generally just skipped on stage after they were announced. I would almost imagine that Diana either did the same during her early solo career or perhaps she entered from the back of the house. Building moveable stagings would've been expensive, as was storing them, transporting them, and having a crew to stage and strike them. As I said above, I would've loved that kind of idea [and similar more creative ways to stage their show for the '70s and incorporate more album material and themed shows], but I think that the bottom line for The Supremes during those years was money. Secondary was exactly what you said--there didn't seem to be any strong connection between Corporate and Group Management/Coordination.

[danman869]

the Valley Forge show with the Temps included only the most recent - YWSSL. but they did do a few more full versions of the 70s music. Stoned Love and Everybody. but that's only 3 70s songs

I wonder if on the Japan album there are a few more songs on the setlist but were cut from the lp. I'd guess they did You're Nobody. wonder if I Guess I'll Miss The Man was still in the act? The version live at the Apollo was lovely

Something I noticed in reading the '70s set lists [and it's definitely not some major revelation for most] is that Up The Ladder To The Roof didn't seem to get much full performance. Sure, it was included in their hit medley, but you see a full version of Everybody's Got The Right To Love included over and over again, but not Up. I don't get the reasoning behind marginalizing UTLTTR and pushing EGTRTL. The latter plods along where as the former is more of a 'get up and dance' track. Odd choices, IMO.

[sup_fan]

Grant, I absolutely don't disagree with your opinion and great ideas here, but I think the problem was: MONEY. Diana *might* have gotten that kind of budget [including rotating sets], but I would think by 1972 that money for that kind of thing [especially with the singles chart performances starting to slide] just wasn't there. I have to wonder, as well, whether or not in 1972, if/when Diana was on stage, whether or not she had/would've had that kind of presentation. For years, the Supremes generally just skipped on stage after they were announced. I would almost imagine that Diana either did the same during her early solo career or perhaps she entered from the back of the house. Building moveable stagings would've been expensive, as was storing them, transporting them, and having a crew to stage and strike them. As I said above, I would've loved that kind of idea [and similar more creative ways to stage their show for the '70s and incorporate more album material and themed shows], but I think that the bottom line for The Supremes during those years was money. Secondary was exactly what you said--there didn't seem to be any strong connection between Corporate and Group Management/Coordination.

yeah this is more of a fantasy idea. it might have been too "ahead of its time" like you said. And certainly for 1 nighters, it would have been very expensive. but a fun idea.

Still the disconnect between Corp and Management seems glaring

[sup_fan]

Something I noticed in reading the '70s set lists [and it's definitely not some major revelation for most] is that Up The Ladder To The Roof didn't seem to get much full performance. Sure, it was included in their hit medley, but you see a full version of Everybody's Got The Right To Love included over and over again, but not Up. I don't get the reasoning behind marginalizing UTLTTR and pushing EGTRTL. The latter plods along where as the former is more of a 'get up and dance' track. Odd choices, IMO.

i agree. I think Ladder was added to the "Hits Medley" early on so that it would cover both the 60s and 70s. and it made an exciting ending to that medley.

And i wonder if maybe Jean liked Everybody? maybe it was a fav? just guessing here. But they did also include those breakout lines for M and C [[later L).

Ladder definitely should have remained a standalone song. it's just too damn good and too powerful of a song. Jean really could SANG that one. And it doesn't suffer the problem of trying to replicate a unique sound or style like Nathan. any orchestra could do Ladder justice.

[Bluebrock]

Truth is, the Supremes should have focused less on the US and more on the UK. Mary herself said the UK fans embraced the Supremes in the 70s tenfold than in the US.

The Three Degrees JUMPED on that bandwagon; had hits throughout the 70's overseas and are still to this day HUMONGOUS in Japan. They LOVE their ooohs and aaahs!

You have a point. As the Supremes floundered the Three Degrees stepped up and basically replaced the Supremes in the charts and in our hearts. I saw the MSC and MSS line up's in concert and they were basically blown away by the Three Degrees who put on a slick and professional show whilst the Supremes were literally all over the place.
Years later i became friends with both Sheila Ferguson and the lovely sweet Val Holiday and they both admitted they took advantage of the Supremes personnel issues and replaced them as the nations sweethearts. They would of course eventually have their own personnel problems, but they are still going strong to this very day and Val has just delivered a lovely solo album.

[blackguy69]

I think EGTRTL got a full version over Ladder is that it was easier to vamp and Mary and Cindy got to do a few lines

[detmotownguy]

Funnily enough I was thinking of The New Seekers when I posted.
IMO, with the vast majority of joe public the name Supremes will always be associated with Diana Ross. That’s why a name change to The New Supremes would have declared to the world this was a new sound and identity, not a continuation of the Diana led years with a different lead singer.
Other then mega stars, hit singles are of course the life blood for any group or solo act. Is it possible that had the group created a completely new identity form the off, some of those records might have sold better then they did.. “SL” alone should have gone mega.
As it was, it seemed the group were often trying to live up to the expectations of their 60’s heyday, or attempting to breakaway from the long shadow that DR undoubtedly cast.

Interesting....Back in Detroit I remember the ladies standing outside with the TV Guide that typically never ever left the house discussing the TV performance of The New Supremes on the Glen Campbell Show. I bel this was the first appearance of the JMC. Just saying.

[marybrewster]

that's sort of my overall point here. I'm not sure if it was the girls, the manager, motown overall. or all of the above. i've mentioned it on here a bunch and it still baffles me that there didn't seem to be more coordination between release schedule, tv dates and live shows. it's really almost as if the recording and releases were all in 1 corporate silo and the tour planning and all was a totally different silo.

with NW, Touch, FJ, etc you could have easily revamped the show with new content from the singles and albums, new additional material that was appropriate for the tour and album, sets and costumes, etc.

for instance, with Floy Joy you could have done a marvelous job of some new costumes that aligned with the album art. They often wore 2 or 3 in a show so if you had 6 or 7 sets, you'd be covered. white, reds, pinks. some matching some not.

And what a perfect way to promote the album by incorporating a Smokey medley. I could see opening the show with YWSSL The band is on stage and jamming on the intro. there's a white set backdrop with a center panel with Floy Joy on it in red. Then the panel could open or rotate and there are the girls in white outfits and the white & red patio table set up. They descend a few stairs from that platform to start singing the opening number.

One thing that's never really mentioned is album cuts in concert. These days, when you see an artist in concert, promoting a new "record", they'll perform the singles, but also throw in a few album tracks. I don't know if by the 70's, or ever, the Supremes performed these types of songs? Yes, there are a few examples, like "Tossin and Turnin". But what a treat it might have been to see "Thank Him For Today" as they exit the stage.....or "Here Comes the Sunrise" as an opener?

[sup_fan]

One thing that's never really mentioned is album cuts in concert. These days, when you see an artist in concert, promoting a new "record", they'll perform the singles, but also throw in a few album tracks. I don't know if by the 70's, or ever, the Supremes performed these types of songs? Yes, there are a few examples, like "Tossin and Turnin". But what a treat it might have been to see "Thank Him For Today" as they exit the stage.....or "Here Comes the Sunrise" as an opener?

completely agree. they did it with the Symphony medley. but yes their 70s albums were rife with wonderful cuts that would have made excellent concert additions. other than singles, I think Diana was the same. until The Boss album at least

The girls did cram Loving Country and Together We Can Make into a medley they did on Tom Jones and then used live.

[RanRan79]

actually the supremes did LOTS of shows and at venues that were readily accessible to the general public. Forrest Hills stadium, college dates, Steel Pier, the apollo, central park

In 71 the girls played a range of dates and my list is quite incomplete - Blossom Music Center in Cuyahoga Falls, Ohio, Schafer Music Festival, Athletics and Convocation Center in South Bend, IN. Plus playing Palisades Amusement Park, Magic Mountain, Disney Resorts,

yes the girls continued to play the bigger club rooms and all where the crowds were mostly older. But that's also part of my point of my complaint about motown's strategy for the group. I think they should have done more package revues again with Gladys Knight, Stevie, The Sups, etc. Those could have commanded the big convention centers and stadiums, playing for thousands of teens and college students.

There has been fan discussion over the years of the Sups on Jesse Jackson's Operation Push in 72. there's video footage of the J5 and GKATPs and their sets are wonderful. But supposedly the Supremes did that Cabaret medley like they did on their Japanese live album, other showtunes and stuff. and the crowd wasn't very receptive

I'm aware of how much the group toured. They stayed busy. I'm arguing the point that most fans still didn't get to see them live and thus the live show had no effect on the general public. That's not to say that some live shows weren't as impactful as they were. Operation Push and the Madison Square Garden disasters certainly spring to mind. But the public can forgive a show that sucks as long as the hits are still rolling in.

[RanRan79]

Truth is, the Supremes should have focused less on the US and more on the UK. Mary herself said the UK fans embraced the Supremes in the 70s tenfold than in the US.

The Three Degrees JUMPED on that bandwagon; had hits throughout the 70's overseas and are still to this day HUMONGOUS in Japan. They LOVE their ooohs and aaahs!

As is, probably. But it's my understanding there was more money to be made in the States if they could just stay relevant.

[RanRan79]

Something I noticed in reading the '70s set lists [and it's definitely not some major revelation for most] is that Up The Ladder To The Roof didn't seem to get much full performance. Sure, it was included in their hit medley, but you see a full version of Everybody's Got The Right To Love included over and over again, but not Up. I don't get the reasoning behind marginalizing UTLTTR and pushing EGTRTL. The latter plods along where as the former is more of a 'get up and dance' track. Odd choices, IMO.

I think "Everybody" showed the group's vocal chops off better than "Ladder" did. I suspect the group may have thought so as well. However, there is no way that I would've ever relegated one of the two major hits [[the other obviously being "Stoned Love") that the new Supremes had to a medley.

[RanRan79]

One thing that's never really mentioned is album cuts in concert. These days, when you see an artist in concert, promoting a new "record", they'll perform the singles, but also throw in a few album tracks. I don't know if by the 70's, or ever, the Supremes performed these types of songs? Yes, there are a few examples, like "Tossin and Turnin". But what a treat it might have been to see "Thank Him For Today" as they exit the stage.....or "Here Comes the Sunrise" as an opener?

Where you been? We talk about how they should've done album cuts in the show forever.:p I think we're all in agreement on your sentiment though.

[RanRan79]

The Supremes' show in the 70s would have greatly benefitted from the inclusion of album cuts to promote the current [[and past) albums, as well as pad the show out with songs original to them [[in most cases). But they needed hits to anchor the show, which is what most artists did. All the extras were built around the inclusion of the hits. Now the supper club/Vegas crowd was probably a little different. And to be honest, most of the stuff I've seen and heard from the Supremes in the 70s was probably good enough to allow them to get by with those audiences. I'm trying to think of a point when the 70s Supremes had a lot of down time and I'm hard pressed to come up with it. Correct me if I'm wrong, but they still managed to constantly work, didn't they?

But if they really wanted to be relevant, they needed to play the stadiums and major theaters that the Arethas and the Spinners and the Gladys Pips and the Blue Notes, etc, were playing. And the only way to really get there was to have hit records. While I love a lot of the songs the Supremes released as singles in the 70s, if I play most of them in a set that includes the people I mention above, among others who were popular at the time, there is usually a clear difference in quality. Those other folks were releasing songs that the public couldn't wait to buy. There's very little in the 70s Supremes entire catalog that I honestly feel fit that mode.

Now where album cuts go, IMO the Supremes had some of the best. And if they had been performed in front of large audiences, it may have garnered more album sales. But the all important hits alluded them. They were never going to rack up the stunning run that the Flo era Supremes achieved. There was a special connection between Flo, Diana and Mary, along with the Funks, along with HDH, that mesmerized the public. That was never going to happen again. Not for DRATS. Not for the New Supremes. Not even for Diana, solo star. But the 70s groupings should have all had at least one major hit single for every incarnation that existed. It didn't have to be a string of hits. Didn't even have to be back to back hits. But at least one major hit seller, one major "can't turn on the radio without hearing that song" hit for each grouping, from each album.

[sup_fan]

Ran - yeah i completely agree that with a mega hit song, the group would drift. and i go back to my old argument of the disorganized strategic planning and management. after such a massive change as Diana leaving PLUS how significantly music had changed in the past couple years, the group needed to really focus and be very thoughtful with each and every activity.

but what we got was flooding of the market with all sorts of albums, the duets, the aging image of giggling glamour girls in wigs and sequins, the corny jokes in the stage patter, etc.

Had they really been thoughtful, Stoned Love should have been a mega hit and NW [[with revised title, song lineup and album art) could have been a massive smash lp.

if SL and the album had been huge then the Touch lp would probably have been better received.