The Supremes - Mary, Scherrie & Susaye Live @ The Roostertail Detroit!

[marv2]

From 1976 and celebrating the Supremes 15th Anniversary. There is footage from the fan convention towards the end of the video:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-x0fLeS2jQ

[detmotownguy]

Been a while since I have seen this! Even when Susaye is sitting down she has the High Energy! Do you know if they sang This is Why I Believe?

[marv2]

Been a while since I have seen this! Even when Susaye is sitting down she has the High Energy! Do you know if they sang This is Why I Believe?

I don't know if they sang that. I have seen pics of them doing that skit where Susaye plays Marilyn Monroe, Mary Josephine Baker and Scherrie Bessie Smith, I believe were the characters.

[luke]

Their voices are great but performance too frenzied.

[marv2]

Their voices are great but performance too frenzied.

Yeah, I never liked the pace of the "hits" medley. Those songs would have sounded great by these three had they slowed them down and stuck to the original arrangements of the songs. Looking at all these videos recently, makes me want to dig into my own archives. It made me remember how many shows and appearances by Mary Wilson and The Supremes that are not up on Youtube.

[detmotownguy]

Their voices are great but performance too frenzied.

I wonder the tape is speeded up. But other Clips do show them in a bit of a frenzy.

[marv2]

I remember during the week they were in town, they did a guest appearance on our local television dance show called "The Scene" with Nat Morris [[who is a friend of mine). They performed "I'm Gonna Let My Heart Do the Walking" and "You're What's Missing In My Life". A short clip of the latter song was on Youtube years ago. They seemed very happy, very energic on the show I remember.

[detmotownguy]

Dang it Marv I don’t remember that show. What channel was it on? The High Energy album should have charter much higher. Quite a few gems on it. I didn’t see it in any record store except one in Livonia. They had a whole display outside the store with all the new Motown releases.

[marv2]

What I liked most is that they were freer on stage and not the old stiff, standing behind microphones singing and delivering hokey stage patter in between songs.

[detmotownguy]

Marv do you know wht the seating capacity was at that time? Thanks!

[marv2]

Dang it Marv I don’t remember that show. What channel was it on? The High Energy album should have charter much higher. Quite a few gems on it. I didn’t see it in any record store except one in Livonia. They had a whole display outside the store with all the new Motown releases.

It was on WGPR Channel 62. The Scene ran every day, Mon. -Fri at 6:00 pm. It ran from October 1975 - 1987. Here is a clip from 1976:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tiENSeb_ojs

[marv2]

Marv do you know wht the seating capacity was at that time? Thanks!

Not at all. I was in high school then and was not even thinking about adult nightclubs yet LOL! Seriously, there may info. on the seating capacity on the web somewhere.

[detmotownguy]

Not at all. I was in high school then and was not even thinking about adult nightclubs yet LOL! Seriously, there may info. on the seating capacity on the web somewhere.

Looks like the maximum is 1200. I would assume being in Detroit, it was sold out.

[marv2]

Looks like the maximum is 1200. I would assume being in Detroit, it was sold out.

Well they ran for about a week. I am pretty sure they sold out.

[captainjames]

I remember being at one of these shows and it as my first time seeing Susaye perform with the group. We got our tickets the day of the show so I don't think it was sold out. MSS sounded good but I have said it several times before that watching them you got the feeling something was missing.

[Ollie9]

I remember being at one of these shows and it as my first time seeing Susaye perform with the group. We got our tickets the day of the show so I don't think it was sold out. MSS sounded good but I have said it several times before that watching them you got the feeling something was missing.

The first official Supreme I ever saw perform live was Mary & The Supremes at the London Palladium in 78. This of course was not really the Supremes at all.
What do you think was the missing ingredient?. Was it perhaps Cindy’s absence that prevented the group from appearing more cohesive?.

[REDHOT]

I went to 2 shows,they were sold out,it was the disco music was the thing, at that time,so the Medley had a disco feel,The Supremes Mary Scherrie and Susaye were soooo good,i remember they got a standing ovation each night,the harmony blend was tight,all 3 ladies were INCREDIBLE.

[milven]

The first official Supreme I ever saw perform live was Mary & The Supremes at the London Palladium in 78. This of course was not really the Supremes at all.
What do you think was the missing ingredient?. Was it perhaps Cindy’s absence that prevented the group from appearing more cohesive?.

This was Mary's "solo" show, but she kept the Supremes' name in the billing and sang with the two Karens.

There is another older thread here about her performance at the Palladium in 1978

https://soulfuldetroit.com/showthread.php?7509-Mary-Wilson-at-the-Lonodn-Palladium-1978

[captainjames]

The first official Supreme I ever saw perform live was Mary & The Supremes at the London Palladium in 78. This of course was not really the Supremes at all.
What do you think was the missing ingredient?. Was it perhaps Cindy’s absence that prevented the group from appearing more cohesive?.

As a group the Supremes always complimented each other on stage. MSS vocally were in top form but as a group they became three lead singers on stage. So in my eyes on stage they were no longer the Supremes they were MSS. It was hard to watch but they were great to listen to.

[sup_fan]

agreed - in the studio, it was an excellent lineup. but mary and management kept the same old tired Vegas-style show. Even when they did an overhaul, it was still Vegas. just newer content like the Dream Genie sequence.

They needed to come up with a totally new stage show format. And you're right. the staging and vocals needed to be completely redone too. There was so much of everyone singing lead - trading so many lines between the girls during songs, too much nonstop 3-part harmony. and far too much ad libbing and going off

[captainjames]

agreed - in the studio, it was an excellent lineup. but mary and management kept the same old tired Vegas-style show. Even when they did an overhaul, it was still Vegas. just newer content like the Dream Genie sequence.

They needed to come up with a totally new stage show format. And you're right. the staging and vocals needed to be completely redone too. There was so much of everyone singing lead - trading so many lines between the girls during songs, too much nonstop 3-part harmony. and far too much ad libbing and going off

sup_fan, you are a smart fan !!!!!!
anyone looking could see it or had to be blind.

[sup_fan]

sup_fan, you are a smart fan !!!!!!
anyone looking could see it or had to be blind.

hehe ;)

it's a shame that mary and pedro were attempting to simply use the supremes at this point as her launching pad to a pop solo career. had they reassessed that and tried to really form the group as a "true group" things could have been so much better

[marv2]

hehe ;)

it's a shame that mary and pedro were attempting to simply use the supremes at this point as her launching pad to a pop solo career. had they reassessed that and tried to really form the group as a "true group" things could have been so much better

I wonder where and who they got that idea from............?

[marv2]

agreed - in the studio, it was an excellent lineup. but mary and management kept the same old tired Vegas-style show. Even when they did an overhaul, it was still Vegas. just newer content like the Dream Genie sequence.

They needed to come up with a totally new stage show format. And you're right. the staging and vocals needed to be completely redone too. There was so much of everyone singing lead - trading so many lines between the girls during songs, too much nonstop 3-part harmony. and far too much ad libbing and going off

Yeah, I know what you mean. I'd never go see an artist that hasn't changed their show or presentation of it in like 30 years. What would be the point?

[detmotownguy]

As a group the Supremes always complimented each other on stage. MSS vocally were in top form but as a group they became three lead singers on stage. So in my eyes on stage they were no longer the Supremes they were MSS. It was hard to watch but they were great to listen to.

I understand the point of no longer being the Sups almost to the point of wishing they'd skip the 60's hits. I saw Mary do the symphony show a while back and I thought it would not bother me if she never sang Baby Love again! But I assume that fans were expecting 60's at the Roostertail event. Mary has said several times there is value in the name. MSS is my fav grouping. Anytime I lent out their last 2 albums they always got rave reviews. I wish they would have made the break from Motown....... sorry for the disjointed post as I am super sick atm.

[marv2]

I understand the point of no longer being the Sups almost to the point of wishing they'd skip the 60's hits. I saw Mary do the symphony show a while back and I thought it would not bother me if she never sang Baby Love again! But I assume that fans were expecting 60's at the Roostertail event. Mary has said several times there is value in the name. MSS is my fav grouping. Anytime I lent out their last 2 albums they always got rave reviews. I wish they would have made the break from Motown....... sorry for the disjointed post as I am super sick atm.

Oh no! Feel better soon DET.

[detmotownguy]

Yeah, I know what you mean. I'd never go see an artist that hasn't changed their show or presentation of it in like 30 years. What would be the point?
I wonder if the three ladies sat down and developed an act that satisfied their own needs, interests and ideas would have led to a more cohesive live performance. As Mary wrote all three were unhappy. Did they ever start to record a 3rd album?

[RanRan79]

What do you think was the missing ingredient?. Was it perhaps Cindy’s absence that prevented the group from appearing more cohesive?.

Yup. MSS were three lead singers who acted as though they were now having a hard time playing their positions. Mary had sung backup in the Supremes forever. That had been her main role for more than a decade. Scherrie did her time with Glass House for a few years, and Susaye put in time in Wonderlove and the Raylettes, if I'm not mistaken. So none of them were strangers to navigating the background. All of a sudden there seemed to be this free for all onstage. Even when someone was singing lead, the backup started to sound like they were in lead position right along with it. Cindy would not have competed for a lead, and when she was with Mary and Scherrie the group was very well balanced, visually and vocally. Remove Cindy and replace with Susaye and now there's a brand new dynamic. None of the ladies are really in control since Pedro was basically running the show. Had someone with the know how to take a step back, assess and critique had handled the Supremes, MSS could have undergone a restructure that might have made them a concert draw again. As is they come across as vocally talented but also somebody's drunk aunties deciding to get together and pretend to be the Supremes at the family reunion. Not a good look.

[RanRan79]

I wonder where and who they got that idea from............?

You know Mary isn't allowed to do what Diana can do. Stop it.:p

But honestly I'm still searching for these albums and concerts where it was all Mary all of the time. To the general public Scherrie was the lead singer, not Mary. It was Scherrie's leads on most of those singles.

[monicarivers]

Yup. MSS were three lead singers who acted as though they were now having a hard time playing their positions. Mary had sung backup in the Supremes forever. That had been her main role for more than a decade. Scherrie did her time with Glass House for a few years, and Susaye put in time in Wonderlove and the Raylettes, if I'm not mistaken. So none of them were strangers to navigating the background. All of a sudden there seemed to be this free for all onstage. Even when someone was singing lead, the backup started to sound like they were in lead position right along with it. Cindy would not have competed for a lead, and when she was with Mary and Scherrie the group was very well balanced, visually and vocally. Remove Cindy and replace with Susaye and now there's a brand new dynamic. None of the ladies are really in control since Pedro was basically running the show. Had someone with the know how to take a step back, assess and critique had handled the Supremes, MSS could have undergone a restructure that might have made them a concert draw again. As is they come across as vocally talented but also somebody's drunk aunties deciding to get together and pretend to be the Supremes at the family reunion. Not a good look.

I agree completely which is why I have a hard time watching any live performances with this lineup ALTHOUGH, on record, they are my second favorite. The recorded performances at least let for a divvying up of lead vocal responsibilities.

[RanRan79]

I wonder if the three ladies sat down and developed an act that satisfied their own needs, interests and ideas would have led to a more cohesive live performance. As Mary wrote all three were unhappy. Did they ever start to record a 3rd album?

I doubt any work was cut for an album after MSS. I think they may have gone into promoting that last album with at least a halfway understanding that this was probably it. Your suggestion is exactly what most groups get wrong. Imagine if Flo, Diana and Mary had sat down and spoken honestly about what they wanted and then forced- at least as much as they could considering the misogynistic relationship they were in with Gordy and some of the other male execs- these desires into some form of the Supremes where each girl was happy? So much drama could've been avoided, and as I've said before, the group could've ended in 1970 with all three originals going solo.

Fast forward to MSS, and this would've been another great time to explore this scenario. The problem is that Pedro was hovering and he was never going to allow Scherrie and Susaye the input that their talents deserved. Pedro's concern was Mary, IMO not because he believed in her in a similar way as Gordy believed in Diana, but Mary was Pedro's meal ticket, either as a Supreme or as a solo, he was going to do what he thought needed to be done to secure her bag either way, since her bag was his bag.

Also by now Mary certainly saw the group as her group, and rightfully so. She was an original, the others were replacements. Mary Wilson is Queen Supreme after all. She probably was very interested at elevating her spot and saw the elevations of the others as threatening. Not that I think Mary was mean spirted, but I do think she had an attitude of the Supremes are her group and Scherrie and Susaye just need to show up and sing. Mary and Pedro will handle the rest. And on a certain level I understand that. The problem is that this attitude never works. It's essentially the same attitude that Diana and Gordy had about Flo and Mary: show up and sing and nobody gets hurt. Except it was hurtful that Flo and Mary's talents and aspirations weren't being considered, only Diana's. Which was worse since Flo and Mary were as original as Diana was. One would think Mary might have considered that with MSS but apparently not. Of course even if she had been interested in that would Pedro have let that go on? Nope.

[marv2]

You know Mary isn't allowed to do what Diana can do. Stop it.:p

But honestly I'm still searching for these albums and concerts where it was all Mary all of the time. To the general public Scherrie was the lead singer, not Mary. It was Scherrie's leads on most of those singles.

Oh I forgot! God forbid...........<G>.

[sup_fan]

I wonder if the three ladies sat down and developed an act that satisfied their own needs, interests and ideas would have led to a more cohesive live performance. As Mary wrote all three were unhappy. Did they ever start to record a 3rd album?

i've not heard of any additional recording sessions beyond those from the MS&S lp but i don't know. I have some old fan club newsletters from the time and had the typical interviews with the girls talking about plans and all. Susaye mentions writing and producing for the group but again, who knows. it doesn't seem like there are any unreleased tracks from MS&S although there were some alt versions. at least no completed unreleased tracks. and Mary made the decision to go solo by Dec 76 - the lp was released in October. so not a lot of time to be back in the studios.

I've also heard fan rumors that the Hollands were having some problems with the motown people again. anyone else know of this?

[sup_fan]

Yup. MSS were three lead singers who acted as though they were now having a hard time playing their positions. Mary had sung backup in the Supremes forever. That had been her main role for more than a decade. Scherrie did her time with Glass House for a few years, and Susaye put in time in Wonderlove and the Raylettes, if I'm not mistaken. So none of them were strangers to navigating the background. All of a sudden there seemed to be this free for all onstage. Even when someone was singing lead, the backup started to sound like they were in lead position right along with it. Cindy would not have competed for a lead, and when she was with Mary and Scherrie the group was very well balanced, visually and vocally. Remove Cindy and replace with Susaye and now there's a brand new dynamic. None of the ladies are really in control since Pedro was basically running the show. Had someone with the know how to take a step back, assess and critique had handled the Supremes, MSS could have undergone a restructure that might have made them a concert draw again. As is they come across as vocally talented but also somebody's drunk aunties deciding to get together and pretend to be the Supremes at the family reunion. Not a good look.

totally agree. another thing is that sometimes there's too much of a good thing. like trading off lines in a song, 3-part harmony, all the different leads. Each of these ideas has merit especially given the vocal talents of MSS. But to have the entire show basically as non-stop 3 part harmony and every song bounces the lead around verse by verse to each girl, etc and you get a hot mess. by doing these elements too much you degrade the value of each. There are times when their 3 part live harmonies were gorgeous and others where they're dancing so much and racing all over the stage so much that they're breathless and then out of tune.

I like the dance routine for Let Yourself Go in the HE video clips. but it's an intricate routine. for a video or when they're lip syncing, fine. but when they're singing live they should have chopped the routine to mostly standing there and singing.

Also someone needed to regular the ad libbing and singing off of the main parts because, again, a little goes a long way.

[sup_fan]

I doubt any work was cut for an album after MSS. I think they may have gone into promoting that last album with at least a halfway understanding that this was probably it. Your suggestion is exactly what most groups get wrong. Imagine if Flo, Diana and Mary had sat down and spoken honestly about what they wanted and then forced- at least as much as they could considering the misogynistic relationship they were in with Gordy and some of the other male execs- these desires into some form of the Supremes where each girl was happy? So much drama could've been avoided, and as I've said before, the group could've ended in 1970 with all three originals going solo.

Fast forward to MSS, and this would've been another great time to explore this scenario. The problem is that Pedro was hovering and he was never going to allow Scherrie and Susaye the input that their talents deserved. Pedro's concern was Mary, IMO not because he believed in her in a similar way as Gordy believed in Diana, but Mary was Pedro's meal ticket, either as a Supreme or as a solo, he was going to do what he thought needed to be done to secure her bag either way, since her bag was his bag.

Also by now Mary certainly saw the group as her group, and rightfully so. She was an original, the others were replacements. Mary Wilson is Queen Supreme after all. She probably was very interested at elevating her spot and saw the elevations of the others as threatening. Not that I think Mary was mean spirted, but I do think she had an attitude of the Supremes are her group and Scherrie and Susaye just need to show up and sing. Mary and Pedro will handle the rest. And on a certain level I understand that. The problem is that this attitude never works. It's essentially the same attitude that Diana and Gordy had about Flo and Mary: show up and sing and nobody gets hurt. Except it was hurtful that Flo and Mary's talents and aspirations weren't being considered, only Diana's. Which was worse since Flo and Mary were as original as Diana was. One would think Mary might have considered that with MSS but apparently not. Of course even if she had been interested in that would Pedro have let that go on? Nope.

again Ran, great post. completely agree

my 2 cents to add is that IMO Mary worked best [[if we're talking about the pop genre) as a member of a group. I love that she expanded her role within the supremes unit. But i think it was unwise to try and launch herself as a pop solo superstar. A good friend of my is dean at a top conservatory and she says one of her least favorite activities is having to tell a student that it will be a struggle for them to make a career out of being a concert solo pianist or whatever they play. They might be an excellent player but to tour the world as a soloist and play the top concertos with major orchestras isn't going to happen. it's a hard but unfortunately necessary discussion that has to occur. I feel that with the idea of Mary as a pop singer.

within the supremes she was firmly established as a pop group member and worked beautifully there. had she wanted to go into other areas like jazz or intimate club work, i think she could have been very successful too. but pop solo wasn't her forte. she should have stayed with the supremes and worked to make the group a viable ongoing institution

[marv2]

totally agree. another thing is that sometimes there's too much of a good thing. like trading off lines in a song, 3-part harmony, all the different leads. Each of these ideas has merit especially given the vocal talents of MSS. But to have the entire show basically as non-stop 3 part harmony and every song bounces the lead around verse by verse to each girl, etc and you get a hot mess. by doing these elements too much you degrade the value of each. There are times when their 3 part live harmonies were gorgeous and others where they're dancing so much and racing all over the stage so much that they're breathless and then out of tune.

I like the dance routine for Let Yourself Go in the HE video clips. but it's an intricate routine. for a video or when they're lip syncing, fine. but when they're singing live they should have chopped the routine to mostly standing there and singing.

Also someone needed to regular the ad libbing and singing off of the main parts because, again, a little goes a long way.

I thought Mary, Scherrie and Susaye were GREAT! On record and on stage. I do not recall being unhappy with them at all back in 1976-77. I was a bit sad when Mary decided to leave,but it was ok.

[monicarivers]

Yeah, I know what you mean. I'd never go see an artist that hasn't changed their show or presentation of it in like 30 years. What would be the point?

Gee marv/luke/det...maybe to see one of the greatest entertainers of all time [[per the opinion of everyone who doesn’t live on planet marv/mary. Shame the European tour is canceled due to Covid. She sold out huge venues and more dates had to me added. Once again, you “three” are living in an alternate reality. At lease she allows photographs these days and isn’t kicking people out. Hehehehehe! LOL!

[detmotownguy]

Oh no! Feel better soon DET. Oh yes grrrr. Going to hospital tomorrow. Hopefully this cool thread keeps going to help me pass the time.

[marv2]

Oh yes grrrr. Going to hospital tomorrow. Hopefully this cool thread keeps going to help me pass the time.

We'll keep it going. You just go and take care of yourself, ok?

[detmotownguy]

[QUOTE=RanRan79;573906] “So much drama could've been avoided, and as I've said before, the group could've ended in 1970 with all three originals going solo.”
Well Berry said that he washed his hands of the whole goddamned group. Somewhere I read that the shelf life of a group with original members is typically abt 10 yrs. Of course there are exceptions. Could they have plucked Flo out of the group and carved a solo career for her and incorporated her comedic talents? Maybe she could have had a career that was a bit less stressful. Mary até it up and loved every minute of it. She would have been a great jazz singer. I don’t mind Mary singing pop tunes. Diana did not posses the group mentality, so yeah 1970 disband the whole damn group. But Motown focused pretty on Diana’s career, so I don’t think they would have spent the time on solos careers for another 2 females artists. Ran are you suggesting that the remaining Sups would have looked to other labels?

[detmotownguy]

i've not heard of any additional recording sessions beyond those from the MS&S lp but i don't know. I have some old fan club newsletters from the time and had the typical interviews with the girls talking about plans and all. Susaye mentions writing and producing for the group but again, who knows. it doesn't seem like there are any unreleased tracks from MS&S although there were some alt versions. at least no completed unreleased tracks. and Mary made the decision to go solo by Dec 76 - the lp was released in October. so not a lot of time to be back in the studios.

I've also heard fan rumors that the Hollands were having some problems with the motown people again. anyone else know of this?
Good point. Your explanation of the timing answers that question! I can’t believe 45 years later this stuff is still being discussed lol!

[marv2]

[QUOTE=RanRan79;573906] “So much drama could've been avoided, and as I've said before, the group could've ended in 1970 with all three originals going solo.”
Well Berry said that he washed his hands of the whole goddamned group. Somewhere I read that the shelf life of a group with original members is typically abt 10 yrs. Of course there are exceptions. Could they have plucked Flo out of the group and carved a solo career for her and incorporated her comedic talents? Maybe she could have had a career that was a bit less stressful. Mary até it up and loved every minute of it. She would have been a great jazz singer. I don’t mind Mary singing pop tunes. Diana did not posses the group mentality, so yeah 1970 disband the whole damn group. But Motown focused pretty on Diana’s career, so I don’t think they would have spent the time on solos careers for another 2 females artists. Ran are you suggesting that the remaining Sups would have looked to other labels?

All of that could have happened. It is clear now that more of the truth has seeped out over the years that Florence Ballard loved singing and even tried to pursue a solo career outside of Motown. It is also true that Berry Gordy turned those women against one another and most of it was done intentionally!

[marv2]

Good point. Your explanation of the timing answers that question! I can’t believe 45 years later this stuff is still being discussed lol!

Me too. I was just enjoying the video and wanted others to see it. I do not work in the entertainment business, so I feel strange detailing what professional entertainers should have done [[especially ones as world-famous as the Supremes). As a fan, it is ok to sometimes wish certain things had happened, but to give instructions on what should have changed to fit some type of end 45 years ago is just strange as Hell to me LOL!

[sup_fan]

Good point. Your explanation of the timing answers that question! I can’t believe 45 years later this stuff is still being discussed lol!

well cuz it's fun! lolol

plus new things are being unearthed by Andy and team, learning more about what was happening behind the scenes. Plus no one person knows it all. it's great to share thoughts, memories and ideas. learn new things. and sometimes based on fan comments and discussions, i've changed my mind about something

[RanRan79]

again Ran, great post. completely agree

my 2 cents to add is that IMO Mary worked best [[if we're talking about the pop genre) as a member of a group. I love that she expanded her role within the supremes unit. But i think it was unwise to try and launch herself as a pop solo superstar. A good friend of my is dean at a top conservatory and she says one of her least favorite activities is having to tell a student that it will be a struggle for them to make a career out of being a concert solo pianist or whatever they play. They might be an excellent player but to tour the world as a soloist and play the top concertos with major orchestras isn't going to happen. it's a hard but unfortunately necessary discussion that has to occur. I feel that with the idea of Mary as a pop singer.

within the supremes she was firmly established as a pop group member and worked beautifully there. had she wanted to go into other areas like jazz or intimate club work, i think she could have been very successful too. but pop solo wasn't her forte. she should have stayed with the supremes and worked to make the group a viable ongoing institution

Of course it's all subjective. I have to imagine that with something like orchestra, the perimeters of "talent enough to make it" are much more rigid than pop music. I think of people like Anita Baker who was told she couldn't sing and she damn sho wasn't gonna make it. Look at her now. One of the best to ever do it, IMO. And I bet the criticism she got early on was because she doesn't have a conventional voice. Is it pop? Is it jazz? Is it gospel? What's going on with this lady? Lol Whatever it was, someone was able to hook up onto a formula that worked for her and the rest is history.

Mary has always had a gorgeous tone to her voice. What she lacked was what I call a melodic voice. She didn't have the ability to float effortlessly over a melody, if that makes any sense. I don't know if I'm explaining myself correctly. Anyway, it's that thing that I think makes banking on Mary as a pop success tremendously risky. However, the GD sessions to me prove that Mary could've been a pop star. Would she have ever been an arena star? Nope, not IMO. But she definitely could've hooked up with producers who could tailor material for her and give her the opportunity for occasional hits, a couple top ten/twenty selling albums. She could've done stuff like Anita Baker and Phyllis Hyman were doing [[as the 80s progressed). Dionne's mid 80s stuff would've worked for Mary also. And I still say Mary might have gotten a #1 if Brenda Russell had given "Piano In the Dark" to Mary instead, especially after Dreamgirl.

There's also a reason most groups cease to exist. Of course problems crop up between members, and issues with the business can suck the life out of a lot of folks. But particularly when people have been in groups since they were a kid, there comes a point where you have to go for yours. Mary had been singing with other women since she was 13 or so years old. No disrespect to our female forum members, but I know for a fact women get tired of being around other women all the damn time. And Mary had been through it with this group. First Barbara decides that marriage and family is more important than the Supremes and leaves. Then Flo and Gordy and then Flo and Diana start having issues that eventually result in Flo leaving. Diana takes the term "big headed" to a whole new level and then she leaves. Jean comes in and is apparently not the warmest person and also has a gripe to pick about almost everything. Cindy's been a rock but now she's out. Lynda's in, but now she and Jean are ganging up on Mary. Now they are both out. Cindy comes back and Scherrie comes in and everything seems to be right again except Scherrie got an attitude because Mary's leads are increasing and Cindy is starting to gripe too. Now Cindy's gone and Susaye is in and the fear is that once again Mary's gonna get jumped by replacements. At some point it makes sense for Mary to say "I'm sick of dealing with Supremes. Time to make it on my own." And I don't fault her one bit for that.

What I do fault her on is her horrible handling of her solo career. She seems to have never found or been interested in finding quality management to oversee her.

[RanRan79]

[QUOTE=RanRan79;573906] “So much drama could've been avoided, and as I've said before, the group could've ended in 1970 with all three originals going solo.”
Well Berry said that he washed his hands of the whole goddamned group. Somewhere I read that the shelf life of a group with original members is typically abt 10 yrs. Of course there are exceptions. Could they have plucked Flo out of the group and carved a solo career for her and incorporated her comedic talents? Maybe she could have had a career that was a bit less stressful. Mary até it up and loved every minute of it. She would have been a great jazz singer. I don’t mind Mary singing pop tunes. Diana did not posses the group mentality, so yeah 1970 disband the whole damn group. But Motown focused pretty on Diana’s career, so I don’t think they would have spent the time on solos careers for another 2 females artists. Ran are you suggesting that the remaining Sups would have looked to other labels?

No, I'm saying around early 1966, Flo, Diana and Mary should have had a conversation with each other about what it is they need out of this group. I imagine both Flo and Mary would want more leads on albums and shows. Flo might even suggest that if a particular single sounded like it was more right for Flo than Diana, Flo should get a turn, just like in the early days. Diana might explain that someday she wants to be on her own. She wants to do movies and make million selling albums. Gordy has her on a course to eventually accomplish this, but they need this ship to move smoothly forward. The girls then take their demands to Gordy. United they stand, divided they fall. Believe it or not, they had more power than anyone thinks and could have used it. The girls may have needed to enlist the help of Gordy's sisters, who were apparently the only women who had any control over him. But if done right we might be having an entirely different discussion about the Supremes than we are currently having.

So with this new plan in place: On stage the Supremes really are three personalities with three individual talents to go along with it. [[If you really think about it, for the three of them, there is something there for everybody.) That gets spotlighted in more than just "People". Flo sings some songs. Mary sings some songs. Diana does a lot of MC'ing. Flo does a lot of comedy. The albums are even better, with songs suited to each lady's talent help make the albums even more appealing because there's something there for everyone to get into. The name never changes to DRATS. There's no shakeup in the lineup. No rumors of infighting. And then in January 1970 they leave the group to embark on their own solo careers. That means Gordy signs them all to solo contracts. He probably will focus his own attention on Diana, but someone else gets Flo, somebody else gets Mary. Maybe Mary's first album is produced by Smokey. Maybe Flo's is produced by Johnny Bristol. Maybe Mary starts to do some spokesmodeling for various products. Flo even gets into movies and television. The Supremes would be like the goose that laid three golden eggs for Motown. But the fact that the girls never united and turned course...

[sup_fan]

but look at to FLOs. Scherrie has been working with them since 89 or so. But she also does her own side projects. which is wonderful. had the Supremes stayed together, there's no reason they couldn't have also done some individual activities.

had another thought about the group's struggles in the 70s

Diana really transformed not only her sound and image but public perception too. At first she was, frankly, just like DRATS but by herself on stage. But then she took on a Hollywood personality. then she was a mother. Then a mature "woman of the 80s"

obviously i'm making some pretty broad sweeps here but i think you get the picture

frankly the supremes and also mary, never really progressed beyond simply being smiling girls in sequins. Again, very broad here. but hopefully you get the gist of what i'm saying. It's more than simply the sound of the music they're releasing - which they did evolve through a variety of different styles. and it's more than simply being gorgeous and glamorous.

[marv2]

but look at to FLOs. Scherrie has been working with them since 89 or so. But she also does her own side projects. which is wonderful. had the Supremes stayed together, there's no reason they couldn't have also done some individual activities.

had another thought about the group's struggles in the 70s

Diana really transformed not only her sound and image but public perception too. At first she was, frankly, just like DRATS but by herself on stage. But then she took on a Hollywood personality. then she was a mother. Then a mature "woman of the 80s"

obviously i'm making some pretty broad sweeps here but i think you get the picture

frankly the supremes and also mary, never really progressed beyond simply being smiling girls in sequins. Again, very broad here. but hopefully you get the gist of what i'm saying. It's more than simply the sound of the music they're releasing - which they did evolve through a variety of different styles. and it's more than simply being gorgeous and glamorous.

Mary has helped to get laws passed. She has been a U.S. Cultural Ambassador around the world. So I cannot say in truth that she never progressed beyond "simply smiling in sequins" because that would be a fat ass lie!

[sup_fan]

[QUOTE=detmotownguy;574009]

No, I'm saying around early 1966, Flo, Diana and Mary should have had a conversation with each other about what it is they need out of this group. I imagine both Flo and Mary would want more leads on albums and shows. Flo might even suggest that if a particular single sounded like it was more right for Flo than Diana, Flo should get a turn, just like in the early days. Diana might explain that someday she wants to be on her own. She wants to do movies and make million selling albums. Gordy has her on a course to eventually accomplish this, but they need this ship to move smoothly forward. The girls then take their demands to Gordy. United they stand, divided they fall. Believe it or not, they had more power than anyone thinks and could have used it. The girls may have needed to enlist the help of Gordy's sisters, who were apparently the only women who had any control over him. But if done right we might be having an entirely different discussion about the Supremes than we are currently having.

So with this new plan in place: On stage the Supremes really are three personalities with three individual talents to go along with it. [[If you really think about it, for the three of them, there is something there for everybody.) That gets spotlighted in more than just "People". Flo sings some songs. Mary sings some songs. Diana does a lot of MC'ing. Flo does a lot of comedy. The albums are even better, with songs suited to each lady's talent help make the albums even more appealing because there's something there for everyone to get into. The name never changes to DRATS. There's no shakeup in the lineup. No rumors of infighting. And then in January 1970 they leave the group to embark on their own solo careers. That means Gordy signs them all to solo contracts. He probably will focus his own attention on Diana, but someone else gets Flo, somebody else gets Mary. Maybe Mary's first album is produced by Smokey. Maybe Flo's is produced by Johnny Bristol. Maybe Mary starts to do some spokesmodeling for various products. Flo even gets into movies and television. The Supremes would be like the goose that laid three golden eggs for Motown. But the fact that the girls never united and turned course...

i'm not read nearly as much about the history of Destiny's Child [[and i know some people on here hate them and B) but what you're describing is similar to what Randy points out in his B bio. Matthew Knowles DID have the foresight to allow each member some ability to develop their own skills and feel valued, while still never taking the eye off of B. after the earlier messes, one it was B, Kelly and Michelle, the group didn't really have the internal strife like the Supremes.

I completely agree that Berry was beyond tunnel-vision when it came to Diana. What's interesting is the the company understood the value of differentiation becuase they had zillions of sub-labels. the Motown label was the primary "home" label but they created others so that they could ensure sales and airplay coverage. if everything was Motown then there's be less. but they made Soul specifically to go into a harder r&b sound. plus all the others.

Berry was particular about the people he worked heavily with. he's credited Diana because she had the same unerring drive as he did. it seems that if people didn't have that matched level, he quickly grew disinterested. Also if they had any problems along the way, he seems to wipe his hands of them. I'm making the guess here but i think that's partially why he bailed on Martha. once she got into drugs and had her own struggles, he wasn't going to invest in her. Wanda never had a prayer either.

But they very well could [[and should) have groomed various female stars in different ways.

[Ollie9]

frankly the supremes and also mary, never really progressed beyond simply being smiling girls in sequins. Again, very broad here. but hopefully you get the gist of what i'm saying. It's more than simply the sound of the music they're releasing - which they did evolve through a variety of different styles. and it's more than simply being gorgeous and glamorous.

To view Mary as someone who has never evolved beyond standing in the footlights looking pretty in sequins isi extremely unfair. She may not be as high profile as Diana, but she has worked very in trying to make the world a better place as well as being a consummate performer, author, actress and humanitarian.

[detmotownguy]

She was the one who wrote 2 successful books.

[marv2]

She was the one who wrote 2 successful books.

She's the one that has done a number of stage plays and musicals. She keeps hers and the Supremes legacy alive more than anyone I can think of. Kick those legs up pretty high on "Dancing With the Stars" too! LOL! Mary's career has been so long and so varied that it could days to discuss the highlights here.

Someone just emailed me to say that Mary Wilson is putting together a all Girls Group telethon to benefit victims of COVID-19, etc.

[detmotownguy]

[QUOTE=RanRan79;574072]

i'm not read nearly as much about the history of Destiny's Child [[and i know some people on here hate them and B) but what you're describing is similar to what Randy points out in his B bio. Matthew Knowles DID have the foresight to allow each member some ability to develop their own skills and feel valued, while still never taking the eye off of B. after the earlier messes, one it was B, Kelly and Michelle, the group didn't really have the internal strife like the Supremes.

I completely agree that Berry was beyond tunnel-vision when it came to Diana. What's interesting is the the company understood the value of differentiation becuase they had zillions of sub-labels. the Motown label was the primary "home" label but they created others so that they could ensure sales and airplay coverage. if everything was Motown then there's be less. but they made Soul specifically to go into a harder r&b sound. plus all the others.

Berry was particular about the people he worked heavily with. he's credited Diana because she had the same unerring drive as he did. it seems that if people didn't have that matched level, he quickly grew disinterested. Also if they had any problems along the way, he seems to wipe his hands of them. I'm making the guess here but i think that's partially why he bailed on Martha. once she got into drugs and had her own struggles, he wasn't going to invest in her. Wanda never had a prayer either.

But they very well could [[and should) have groomed various female stars in different ways.
I understand a small co. being disinterested in employees associated with drugs. Berry did not possess the leadership skills to look beyond his one star.

[marv2]

[QUOTE=sup_fan;574091]
I understand a small co. being disinterested in employees associated with drugs. Berry did not possess the leadership skills to look beyond his one star.

Barney Ales said he did drugs with Berry Gordy at one time. They did "pills". Anyone that made a public declaration about not associating with those that used drugs or don't do drugs are lying most of the time. Especially in the music business.

[gman]

They were NOT Fleetwood Mac....its rare 3 individual talents can have major success within the same group, and continue on for years nurturing both solo careers and group activity...

Plus, they were understandably unnerved by the oldies show where they were the star attraction, in NYC in the summer of '76, and got booed off stage at Madison Square Garden...in front of a VERY large audience....there were most likely more people at that ONE show than there were in attendance at a months worth of Vegas headlining. it was a very high profile gig. Even with DR, the group never performed at MSG....it may have been a great opportunity for grand exposure, but a very bad move to take a show built on disco-fied current releases to a oldies gig and think you can save the day with a train wreck/tornado paced hits medley.....God only knows how many ticket buyers didn't follow the group and due to lack of a top ten record for years didn't realize the group had continued recording and performing, and thought they disbanded....and the radio spot for the show aired every 30 minutes for weeks, with wild canned applause after the announcement of each individual act over the sound of one of [[or in some cases "the") each acts major hit... meanwhile playing BABY LOVE when mentioning excitedly "THE SUPREMES!" perhaps the greasers assumed Diana Ross took this gig on as a one off special appearance to perform in a major market with the Supremes? It may have been a lot wiser to use STONED LOVE as the radio spot…

[marv2]

They were NOT Fleetwood Mac....its rare 3 individual talents can have major success within the same group, and continue on for years nurturing both solo careers and group activity...

Plus, they were understandably unnerved by the oldies show where they were the star attraction, in NYC in the summer of '76, and got booed off stage at Madison Square Garden...in front of a VERY large audience....there were most likely more people at that ONE show than there were in attendance at a months worth of Vegas headlining. it was a very high profile gig. Even with DR, the group never performed at MSG....it may have been a great opportunity for grand exposure, but a very bad move to take a show built on disco-fied current releases to a oldies gig and think you can save the day with a train wreck/tornado paced hits medley.....God only knows how many ticket buyers didn't follow the group and due to lack of a top ten record for years didn't realize the group had continued recording and performing, and thought they disbanded....and the radio spot for the show aired every 30 minutes for weeks, with wild canned applause after the announcement of each individual act over the sound of one of [[or in some cases "the") each acts major hit... meanwhile playing BABY LOVE when mentioning excitedly "THE SUPREMES!" perhaps the greasers assumed Diana Ross took this gig on as a one off special appearance to perform in a major market with the Supremes? It may have been a lot wiser to use STONED LOVE as the radio spot…

The MSG gig you are referring to was Richard Nader's Rock and Roll Oldies Show. It occurred in March 1977. We pleaded with them not to do it as the Supremes were still a current act with current music on the market. They needed the money. Half of the biker and biker chick crowd [[mostly from Jersey) booed and walked out during their part of the show. Those that remained cheered the Supremes very loudly. Still it was a poor choice of appearances for the group.

[marv2]

They were NOT Fleetwood Mac....its rare 3 individual talents can have major success within the same group, and continue on for years nurturing both solo careers and group activity...

Plus, they were understandably unnerved by the oldies show where they were the star attraction, in NYC in the summer of '76, and got booed off stage at Madison Square Garden...in front of a VERY large audience....there were most likely more people at that ONE show than there were in attendance at a months worth of Vegas headlining. it was a very high profile gig. Even with DR, the group never performed at MSG....it may have been a great opportunity for grand exposure, but a very bad move to take a show built on disco-fied current releases to a oldies gig and think you can save the day with a train wreck/tornado paced hits medley.....God only knows how many ticket buyers didn't follow the group and due to lack of a top ten record for years didn't realize the group had continued recording and performing, and thought they disbanded....and the radio spot for the show aired every 30 minutes for weeks, with wild canned applause after the announcement of each individual act over the sound of one of [[or in some cases "the") each acts major hit... meanwhile playing BABY LOVE when mentioning excitedly "THE SUPREMES!" perhaps the greasers assumed Diana Ross took this gig on as a one off special appearance to perform in a major market with the Supremes? It may have been a lot wiser to use STONED LOVE as the radio spot…

It really is long ago history now just like when Diana Ross was booed off of the stage at the Air Jamaica Music Festival in 2008. Some people just want to see and hear the oldies which is why Ross' audience would routinely walk out after the Supremes hits medley at Jones Beach to avoid the traffic. LOL!

[REDHOT]

The Supremes Mary Wilson Cindy Birdsong and Susaye Greene were INCREDIBLE.The Best.

[monicarivers]

Would it be so difficult for marv2/luke/detmotowmguy or DETROITLIVES313 to address the fact that he was kicked out of a Diana Ross concert in Denver and has held a grudge against her ever since or that Mary Wilson wants nothing to do with him? I’m not sure what the delay is. And for others in this forum to think he’s some great archivist by reposting.every.single.Eric Iversen upload is so lame. Mary thinks this man is a loony toon - maybe it’s time to start ignoring his posts in this “sub forum”. If I knew someone This creepy was online acting like my personal assistant and cheerleader, I’d contact the moderator or the police!

[sup_fan]

Would it be so difficult for marv2/luke/detmotowmguy or DETROITLIVES313 to address the fact that he was kicked out of a Diana Ross concert in Denver and has held a grudge against her ever since or that Mary Wilson wants nothing to do with him? I’m not sure what the delay is. And for others in this forum to think he’s some great archivist by reposting.every.single.Eric Iversen upload is so lame. Mary thinks this man is a loony toon - maybe it’s time to start ignoring his posts in this “sub forum”. If I knew someone This creepy was online acting like my personal assistant and cheerleader, I’d contact the moderator or the police!

i've blocked marv on here and frankly, its been wonderful. no hassle or nonsense. yes there were times he would post an interest story or pic but not enough to offset the endless bile and hatred. makes things much more pleasant here

[monicarivers]

i've blocked marv on here and frankly, its been wonderful. no hassle or nonsense. yes there were times he would post an interest story or pic but not enough to offset the endless bile and hatred. makes things much more pleasant here

I finally bit the bullet and did the same, as well as for his other screen names [[luke, detmotownguy). Expecting a change of behavior, any remorse, or owning up to things just ain’t gonna happen. We know how Mary feels and I guess that’s some level of acknowledgement of how far he’s taken things beyond our little online gatherings!

[TheMotownManiac]

It really is long ago history now just like when Diana Ross was booed off of the stage at the Air Jamaica Music Festival in 2008. Some people just want to see and hear the oldies which is why Ross' audience would routinely walk out after the Supremes hits medley at Jones Beach to avoid the traffic. LOL!

”MARV’S NOSE TO MOUTH - MARV’S NOSE TO MOUTH: I’m growing at a very fast rate - quick! Swallow some truth serum at once!”

Diana was NOT booed off the stage in Jamaica and you know the real story so why lie or mislead anyone? The crowd in the back booed because the jumbo screens weren’t on - their unhappiness had ZERO to do with her performance.

I saw DR at Jones Beach 3 times and never saw anyone leave after the Suoremes medley. Of course, I have many friends who attended all of her Jones Beach shows and no one ever mentioned such a thing. I will, HOWEVER, enquirer to be certain. How odd for you to suggest this happened at Jones Beach - why on earth would the Audience choose that venue to behave that way? What year[[s) specifically do you claim this occurred?

‘it’s odd that in NY of all places, where she broke the box office record at the legend dairy palace theater in 1976, I’m broke the box office record at radio city music Hall in 1984 less than a year after performing for hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of thousands of people for free in Central Park, and the only Show that RTL sold out until they began to offer seats with no site lines whatsoever and sold thousands of those.

how odd that just 25 miles from serial mammoth success for decades that Miss Ross would endure this aberrant behavior. I do not think this is true.

[sup_fan]

ok - back to MSS :)

after dinner last night was lounging in the pool and put the MS&S album on. damn is it good

and interestingly enough, in many posts over the years here we've talked about how the girls didn't really do a sufficient job of promoting the lp. sure they did their singles but then their tv and stage shows didn't bother with the material. but in listening to the album's 8 shows, they did at least 4 live. which isn't too bad

Driving Wheel & let yourself go were done on several tv shows and in their live shows
You are heart of me - always lip synced but on Udo Live, merv griffin and soul train
come into my life - soul train lip synced

did either of the last two make it into their stage shows? i've not heard them. did any other tracks from the lp get performed?

[sup_fan]

and figured i'd continue this topic by looking at the material from the other two Scherrie albums

The Supremes
He's my man - stage shows and on soul train, dinah, sammy davis show, tonight show
where is it i belong - dinah, soul train
this is why i believe - american bandstand, soul train, stage shows
early morning love - soul train, live stage shows, sammy davis show

oddly enough their second single [[where do i go from here) seems to be largely ignored. And none of the excellent Ivey woodford songs like Color My World

High Energy
I'm gonna let my heart - stage shows and quite a few tv show - Mike douglas, soul train, bandstand, merv griffin
High energy - stage shows
You're what's missing - stage shows, soul train, bandstand
don't let my teardrops bother you - mike douglas


so basically they were doing about half of their Scherrie albums live in some way or form. although several songs were done on tv, not sure they were ever added to the show

[reese]

and figured i'd continue this topic by looking at the material from the other two Scherrie albums

The Supremes
He's my man - stage shows and on soul train, dinah, sammy davis show, tonight show
where is it i belong - dinah, soul train
this is why i believe - american bandstand, soul train, stage shows
early morning love - soul train, live stage shows, sammy davis show

oddly enough their second single [[where do i go from here) seems to be largely ignored. And none of the excellent Ivey woodford songs like Color My World

High Energy
I'm gonna let my heart - stage shows and quite a few tv show - Mike douglas, soul train, bandstand, merv griffin
High energy - stage shows
You're what's missing - stage shows, soul train, bandstand
don't let my teardrops bother you - mike douglas


so basically they were doing about half of their Scherrie albums live in some way or form. although several songs were done on tv, not sure they were ever added to the show

They also did I'M GONNA LET MY HEART DO THE WALKING and YOU'RE WHAT'S MISSING IN MY LIFE on Dinah Shore. They were wearing the FUNNY GIRL costumes from TCB.

DON'T LET MY TEARDROPS BOTHER YOU was also done on an Easter Seals Telethon wearing the SOMEWHERE gown from TCB.

[midnightman]

Yup. MSS were three lead singers who acted as though they were now having a hard time playing their positions. Mary had sung backup in the Supremes forever. That had been her main role for more than a decade. Scherrie did her time with Glass House for a few years, and Susaye put in time in Wonderlove and the Raylettes, if I'm not mistaken. So none of them were strangers to navigating the background. All of a sudden there seemed to be this free for all onstage. Even when someone was singing lead, the backup started to sound like they were in lead position right along with it. Cindy would not have competed for a lead, and when she was with Mary and Scherrie the group was very well balanced, visually and vocally. Remove Cindy and replace with Susaye and now there's a brand new dynamic. None of the ladies are really in control since Pedro was basically running the show. Had someone with the know how to take a step back, assess and critique had handled the Supremes, MSS could have undergone a restructure that might have made them a concert draw again. As is they come across as vocally talented but also somebody's drunk aunties deciding to get together and pretend to be the Supremes at the family reunion. Not a good look.

It was just like what Marvin Gaye once described working with Diana: they were like kids fighting over the same cookie. If you're used to being a background singer and you join a female supergroup with the chance to branch out, it can be difficult especially when the one who was one of the original members and waited years to prove herself now wants to do leads too. Three headstrong women who all want to sing lead, it was gonna clash. This lineup only lasted a year for a reason!

[midnightman]

ok - back to MSS :)

after dinner last night was lounging in the pool and put the MS&S album on. damn is it good

and interestingly enough, in many posts over the years here we've talked about how the girls didn't really do a sufficient job of promoting the lp. sure they did their singles but then their tv and stage shows didn't bother with the material. but in listening to the album's 8 shows, they did at least 4 live. which isn't too bad

Driving Wheel & let yourself go were done on several tv shows and in their live shows
You are heart of me - always lip synced but on Udo Live, merv griffin and soul train
come into my life - soul train lip synced

did either of the last two make it into their stage shows? i've not heard them. did any other tracks from the lp get performed?

I blame Ewart Abner honestly. He could've definitely put some more muscle behind the Supremes especially with the "I'm Gonna Let My Heart" song. Disappointing to have a comeback single on your hands and it only peaks at number 40?!

[gman]

They also did I'M GONNA LET MY HEART DO THE WALKING and YOU'RE WHAT'S MISSING IN MY LIFE on Dinah Shore. They were wearing the FUNNY GIRL costumes from TCB.

DON'T LET MY TEARDROPS BOTHER YOU was also done on an Easter Seals Telethon wearing the SOMEWHERE gown from TCB.

I saw that Easter Seals performance...that performance is never mentioned...it was a Sunday afternoon if I am not mistaken, and I wasn't aware Cindy had left yet.

They also did Wonderama which I think may have been a NYC regional early Sunday morning kids show and not national….MSS....did lip-sync performances of You're My Driving Wheel, Let Yourself Go, You Are The Heart of Me and Come Into My Life. I recall the Red/Grey/White vertical stripe gowns for that one.

[RanRan79]

but look at to FLOs. Scherrie has been working with them since 89 or so. But she also does her own side projects. which is wonderful. had the Supremes stayed together, there's no reason they couldn't have also done some individual activities.

had another thought about the group's struggles in the 70s

Diana really transformed not only her sound and image but public perception too. At first she was, frankly, just like DRATS but by herself on stage. But then she took on a Hollywood personality. then she was a mother. Then a mature "woman of the 80s"

obviously i'm making some pretty broad sweeps here but i think you get the picture

frankly the supremes and also mary, never really progressed beyond simply being smiling girls in sequins. Again, very broad here. but hopefully you get the gist of what i'm saying. It's more than simply the sound of the music they're releasing - which they did evolve through a variety of different styles. and it's more than simply being gorgeous and glamorous.

Sure, Mary could've continued with the Supremes if she wanted to. Apparently she didn't want to, and IMO that's okay. Let's be real, keeping a group together is more than "okay girls, let's go sing". There's a lot of work involved, including the managing of egos, which apparently wasn't Mary's strong suit. I personally think her talent was big enough to step out on her own, unlike my views about, say, Otis Williams, whom I view as a Cindy Birdsong type. But even Cindy gave the group the finger and did her own thing at one point. Sometimes folks just want to move on and I would never begrudge Mary or any other Supreme that right. Why stay in something that makes you unhappy?

I agree about Diana's transformation. That earliest solo period was basically a Supremes-less DRATS experience, before transforming into a solid solo with Lady Sings The Blues and TMITM, and then exploding around "Love Hangover" as a bonafide superstar. The 80s definitely brought on another change. Of course eventually the criticism would become that she too would fail to reinvent herself when the time came.

But when it comes to the Supremes, I think they in many ways stepped their game up in the early 70s. There was now no longer a star attraction inside the star attraction. It was a new thing. New look. New sound. New vibe. Sometimes. That they were still doing MOR, even during the Scherrie years, that was just a bad move. All of that should've been eschewed when Ross left and Terrell stepped in. It was the 70s, time for a total revamp. I love the photo sessions of the 70s girls in a hip new wardrobe, or even the updated glam stuff, relevant to the times. Bad move recycling DRATS gowns. I think some of this stuff was a turnoff to the general public. When someone says "new" Supremes, that's what they expect to get. They didn't have to do anything as radical as Labelle, but they could've definitely used a lot more change than what eventually occurred. Jean brought a whole new dimension of possibilities. And with the 70s having some of the best-IMO-slow jams of all time, Mary's voice would've been a perfect fit for something slow and sexy. But Jean was being forced to sing "You're Nobody" and Mary "Can't Take My Eyes Off You" for the 12th year in a row.:p

[[Interesting note, I suspect that the reason the Three Degrees didn't fare as well in the States, despite being phenomenal vocalists and performers and having some killer cuts, is because they too could be very Vegasy and "old fashioned" at times, although personally I find their act to be a million times better than what the 70s Supremes were ever doing.)

I don't think the 70s Supremes were ever just smiling girls in sequins. I definitely think they came across as mature, sophisticated women. As for Mary, Mary did reinvent herself in the 80s as a Tina Turner like rocker. And then in the 90s she took on a more relevant vibe to the times. Unfortunately, Mary the rocker didn't work to anyone's taste, and by the time the 90s rolled around, the business was so far and away from legends of Mary's age, that she really didn't have much of a chance to garner any public spotlight for anybody to case about her transformation.

[RanRan79]

To view Mary as someone who has never evolved beyond standing in the footlights looking pretty in sequins isi extremely unfair. She may not be as high profile as Diana, but she has worked very in trying to make the world a better place as well as being a consummate performer, author, actress and humanitarian.

I think Sup is referring to her as a performer, not as a human being. That's how I took his post anyway.

[RanRan79]

i've blocked marv on here and frankly, its been wonderful. no hassle or nonsense. yes there were times he would post an interest story or pic but not enough to offset the endless bile and hatred. makes things much more pleasant here

I had Marv on block for a year or two at one time so I get it. He does the most and gets ridiculous. But at least 99 percent of his bile is directed at a woman who- I assume- does not post in this forum. He is not a bigger problem than the handful of screen names who apparently stalk him in this forum. That person you responded to has 255 posts. I guarantee you 200 of those contain the name Marv. That's more weird than anything Marv has ever done in the forum since I've been a member.

[RanRan79]

It was just like what Marvin Gaye once described working with Diana: they were like kids fighting over the same cookie. If you're used to being a background singer and you join a female supergroup with the chance to branch out, it can be difficult especially when the one who was one of the original members and waited years to prove herself now wants to do leads too. Three headstrong women who all want to sing lead, it was gonna clash. This lineup only lasted a year for a reason!

Exactly. MSS were a train wreck in the making. I'm not sure people really understand how valuable a Cindy Birdsong is. Interestingly, when Flo was in the group, Mary was the Cindy. She was the glue. She was the one that kept a balance between Flo and Diana, not just vocally, but personality wise. Flo and Diana both had egos. Mary obviously had one too [[I believe it's a prerequisite for becoming an entertainer, there's a certain amount of ego involved.), but it was understated and she was willing to do whatever just to keep the ship upright. Once Flo was gone and Cindy entered the picture, Mary suddenly moved into the Flo spot, while Cindy became the member that helped to strike a balance. Cindy continued in this role with Jean. When she was replaced with Lynda, I think the balance was noticeably off in every way. That's not to say that I back off my opinion that JML were a super group waiting to happen, but the fact that it fairly quickly imploded should have come as no surprise. Enter Cindy. She glues Mary and Scherrie very well. Exit Cindy, enter Susaye, and just like JML there's no longer a glue, a balancer. It's a free for all...all the way to the bargain basement of groups. Cindy definitely doesn't get the credit she deserves for her contributions to this group.

[monicarivers]

I had Marv on block for a year or two at one time so I get it. He does the most and gets ridiculous. But at least 99 percent of his bile is directed at a woman who- I assume- does not post in this forum. He is not a bigger problem than the handful of screen names who apparently stalk him in this forum. That person you responded to has 255 posts. I guarantee you 200 of those contain the name Marv. That's more weird than anything Marv has ever done in the forum since I've been a member.

Marv has been kicked out of a Diana Ross concert and Mary thinks he is a creepy stalker. He’s also wished bodily harm and death on Diana Ross. Way weirder than me calling him out on his sh*t. Spare us the high horse and put him back on block honey.

[monicarivers]

Additionally, marv2 also goes by “luke” and “detmotownguy”.

[florence]

Why does the Moderator allow people to operate multiple accounts?

[blackguy69]

No way to prove it’s the same person but the same can be said of others on this board
Why does the Moderator allow people to operate multiple accounts?

[sup_fan]

I think Sup is referring to her as a performer, not as a human being. That's how I took his post anyway.

thanks Ran ;)

now i'm only going off of a handful of interviews that are still available today. but on many of the tv talk shows, well into the 70s Mary is still chatting about going shopping, giggling, tossing off canned PR responses. Not that she had to divulge her darkest secrets. but it seems that they were portraying themselves as very plastic at times.

[sup_fan]

I saw that Easter Seals performance...that performance is never mentioned...it was a Sunday afternoon if I am not mistaken, and I wasn't aware Cindy had left yet.

They also did Wonderama which I think may have been a NYC regional early Sunday morning kids show and not national….MSS....did lip-sync performances of You're My Driving Wheel, Let Yourself Go, You Are The Heart of Me and Come Into My Life. I recall the Red/Grey/White vertical stripe gowns for that one.

very cool!! especially the wonderama segment! sure wish one of you NYers had taped it lol

i've seen at least some pics [[maybe a clip - can't remember) of MSS in the velvet lowcut gowns [[from the Sammy show) and i think they're doing Walking and Missing. i believe it was a local Detroit show. so probably summer 76 when they were in town for the Roostertail

[monicarivers]

No way to prove it’s the same person but the same can be said of others on this board

IP addresses are a dead giveaway. I suspect people create multiple accounts so they can have “conversations” that move their preferred thread/topics to the top of the forum to deter from others.

[sup_fan]

IP addresses are a dead giveaway. I suspect people create multiple accounts so they can have “conversations” that move their preferred thread/topics to the top of the forum to deter from others.

exactly - i'm happy that there's a broad range of topics just with the Sup category. But as people have pointed out, seeing 15 threads to 15 early 90s video interviews with Mary on the same topic, gets a bit redundant

people don't scroll so if a topic is pushed below the fold of the page, it's sort of lost forever. sometimes they pop back up but usually that's the end of that discussion. sort of the same problem general Motown fans were having with all of the Sup and DR content.

personally i most enjoy discussing the historic professional elements of the girls. some of their personal info is intriguing but it's not like i consider any of them friends. and since they're all human and subject to all the good/bad that all people go through, i try to put out posts or threads on decisions and activities they were making in regards to their music

[monicarivers]

exactly - i'm happy that there's a broad range of topics just with the Sup category. But as people have pointed out, seeing 15 threads to 15 early 90s video interviews with Mary on the same topic, gets a bit redundant

people don't scroll so if a topic is pushed below the fold of the page, it's sort of lost forever. sometimes they pop back up but usually that's the end of that discussion. sort of the same problem general Motown fans were having with all of the Sup and DR content.

personally i most enjoy discussing the historic professional elements of the girls. some of their personal info is intriguing but it's not like i consider any of them friends. and since they're all human and subject to all the good/bad that all people go through, i try to put out posts or threads on decisions and activities they were making in regards to their music

I made a suggestion that we create a thread devoted to all of the content Eric Iversen is putting out on his YouTube channel - there is some really good stuff being uploaded, especially regarding the 70s Supremes. I agree with you though. I don’t really like having to sign in and see half a dozen threads focused on very random Mary-isms [[a toothpaste commercial where she does a voice over and how memorable it was to the three screennames of Eve...hard pass).