Accuracy of the charts ?

[Albator]

I'm working on tracking Diana in the various charts, and I realize how different they are :confused:

16817



GETTIN’ READY FOR LOVE
CB
B
RW




15
13
12


October 29, 1977
85






November 5
79
82
83


November 12
69
53
72


November 19
60
43
69


November 26
50
41
65


December 3
49
39
62


December 10
46
35
55


December 17
43
33
49


December 24
38
29
44


December 31
34
-
42


January 7, 1978
33
27
41


January 14
32
27
44


January 21
41
55
72


January 28
52
67
82


February 4
76

[sup_fan]

i'm not sure of how each compiled their rankings. sales, airplay.

I too am working on chart rankings for Billboard Pop charts. we all are very familiar with the peak positions on Billboard of the Sups/DR material but i wanted to better understand the climb to the peak and subsequent weeks. what i've found most surprising is how quickly a song drops off the charts. often the girls would peak and then spend a couple weeks in the top 10. but then 1 week they'd be in the low 20s and then GONE! completely out of the Top 100. it's surprising that songs didn't drift downwards but rather plummeted downward.

[Albator]

It's a little bit frustrating that Diana Ross, Supremes, but also, Marvin Gaye, Stevie Wonder and Smokey Robinson are almost absent from RIAA criteria.
I don't know why The Temptations managed to get many certification in 1999.
At least, this gave the Supremes 2 gold LP and a platinum single for their joined venture. In the process, Baby Love and Stop In The Name Of Love are gold, SWBT is platinum.


Berry Gordy said in a french interview that their best seller were WDOLG, and along with Love Child, the latter his her longest run in the Cashbox and Billboard charts.
It seems Come see about me, You can't hurry love and YKMHO were strong.


Also looking at the charts, year end chart, and all, at least 3 others supremes LP should be gold or platinum.


For her solo career, best seller LP were IMO, LSTB, TMITM, Ross, Diana Ross, Greatest hits 76.

[reese]

It's a little bit frustrating that Diana Ross, Supremes, but also, Marvin Gaye, Stevie Wonder and Smokey Robinson are almost absent from RIAA criteria.
I don't know why The Temptations managed to get many certification in 1999....

I think a lot of record companies went back and had older records officially certified in the 90s. I remember some Stax singles like Carla Thomas' B-A-B-Y earning a gold record.

Re the Tempts' certifications in 1999, I think that came about after the success of their miniseries and maybe they were celebrating something else as well. I remember when the whole list was published in Billboard [[I think) and I thought they would now have official RIAA discs for some albums that they already had received gold discs for from Motown.

[sup_fan]

my list is not complete yet - I'm about to June 1970 so Stoned Love isn't done yet. and i'm only looking at Billboard.

Longest time in Top 100 - 16 weeks
Love Child
Someday We'll Be Together

Longest time in Top 10
Love Child - 11 weeks
I'm Gonna make - 11 weeks
Someday, Where, Come See - all 9 weeks
Baby Love, You can't hurry love - 8 weeks

Shortest time in Top 100 [[not including pre-WDOLG "non hits")
The Young Folks, The Weight - 5 weeks
No Matter Sign, Composer - 6 weeks
I'll try something new - 7 weeks
ithin, in and out, shame - 8 weeks

Shortest time in top 10
Stop, reflections - 7 weeks
Back in arms - 5 weeks
Symphon, You keep me hanging on, happening - 6 weeks
My world - 4 weeks
itchin, in and out, - 2 weeks
shame, up the ladder - 1 week

[gman]

I remember reading, [[no crap!) about 30 years ago the top 5 selling copies sold singles were:
Someday We'll Be Together
Love Child
Baby Love
Stoned Love
Come See About Me

[Albator]

my list is not complete yet - I'm about to June 1970 so Stoned Love isn't done yet. and i'm only looking at Billboard.

Longest time in Top 100 - 16 weeks
Love Child
Someday We'll Be Together

Longest time in Top 10
Love Child - 11 weeks
I'm Gonna make - 11 weeks
Someday, Where, Come See - all 9 weeks
Baby Love, You can't hurry love - 8 weeks

Shortest time in Top 100 [[not including pre-WDOLG "non hits")
The Young Folks, The Weight - 5 weeks
No Matter Sign, Composer - 6 weeks
I'll try something new - 7 weeks
ithin, in and out, shame - 8 weeks

Shortest time in top 10
Stop, reflections - 7 weeks
Back in arms - 5 weeks
Symphon, You keep me hanging on, happening - 6 weeks
My world - 4 weeks
itchin, in and out, - 2 weeks
shame, up the ladder - 1 week
Here are the same from Cashbox

longest in top 100
16w: Someday We'll Be Together [[platinum)
15w:WDOLG, Comme See about me, Love Child

Longest at n°1
3w: love child
2w: WDOLG, Baby love [[gold), SWBT [[platinum),

longest in top 5
love child : 9w
WDOLG: 7w
I hear a Symphony: 7w
Comme See about me: 6w
You can't hurry love: 6w

longest in top 10
love child: 13w
WDOLG: 9w
baby love: 8w [[gold)
come see about me: 8w

shortest in top 10

in & out of love: 1w
Love is like an hitching: 3w
living in shame: 3w
my world is empty : 4w
reflexion: 6w
love is here: 6w
YKMHO: 6w
back in my arms: 6w
IGMYLM: 6w [[platinum)

[sup_fan]

I remember reading, [[no crap!) about 30 years ago the top 5 selling copies sold singles were:
Someday We'll Be Together
Love Child
Baby Love
Stoned Love
Come See About Me

i heard Where, You Can't Hurry love, I'm gonna make you love me, Love Child, Someday and Stoned were all the biggest sellers.

[jobeterob]

You know there are a series of books around with all their chart information ?

We court take a picture of their page if you want

I recall one of them says Diana would be one of the Top 3 artists of the Rock Era if you include her solo and Supremes work

[florence]

The fascinating topic of the Supremes' best selling singles - information has always been scant and anything further is highly unlikely to emerge.

Someday We'll Be Together from reports at the time and Love Child are reckoned to be their two biggest selling singles.

Berry Gordy Jnr says in his autobiography that at the time of release Love Child became their biggest seller to date.

The 90s certifications are rather strange e.g. I had always understood Where Did Our Love Go was a bigger seller than Love Child.

At one stage the RIAA had dropped the threshold for certifications from 2m to 1m for Platinum and from 1m to 500k for Gold and this was made retrospective - many companies took advantage of this.

As has been said whie the Supremes' singles flew up the charts they also dropped away very quickly so sales may not be as great as you might think.

While there may not be so many million sellers there must undoubtedly be quite a few which sold 500k and not just the paltry few for which certifiaction was claimed.

I think Love Child is the perfect example. Why no certification for it?

The key is the Cashbox chart. During the 60s and most of the 70s this was compiled on sales alone. Love Child was a #1 and high in the top 10 during December 1968 the busiest selling period of the year - it certainly looks like a million seller to me but without question it was easily 500k+.

Apparently much of the documentation regarding the Supremes' sales had been "lost" and as a result only a handful of certifications could be claimed.

We may all have our own theories as to how this happened!

But it seemed strange to me that there didn't seem to be any problem with producing the sales evidence for the Temptations just a couple of yers later.

[Albator]

As has been said whie the Supremes' singles flew up the charts they also dropped away very quickly so sales may not be as great as you might think.

11/15 weeks on the charts may seem a short run from a seventies or eighties perspective, but in the sixties, this was average for a hit single.
This didn't prevented "SWBT" or "IMGMYLM" from being platinum.

[Albator]

as it can be seen here

16821

[midnightman]

I have been wondering how great the sales of their singles were. Seems like most of their hits reached a peak and then taper off in sales. If I have to guess, I think Marvin Gaye was probably the best-selling singles artist on Motown. I could be wrong about that but that's the feeling I have.

[SatansBlues]

as it can be seen here

16821

I cannot get this attachment to work...

[Albator]

I have been wondering how great the sales of their singles were. Seems like most of their hits reached a peak and then taper off in sales. If I have to guess, I think Marvin Gaye was probably the best-selling singles artist on Motown. I could be wrong about that but that's the feeling I have.
Well, this is not what the charts are telling us.

By the way, is phenomenal hit "I HEARD IT THROUGH THE GRAPEVINE" spent 15 weeks in Cashbox charts. Entry november 16, 1968 : 78 - 55 - 28 - 13 - 5 - 1- 1 - 1 - 1 - 1- 4 - 4 - 11 - 12 - 16


As you can see, it spent 15 weeks in the top 100 and drop completely out of the charts.
​

[sup_fan]

You know there are a series of books around with all their chart information ?

We court take a picture of their page if you want

I recall one of them says Diana would be one of the Top 3 artists of the Rock Era if you include her solo and Supremes work

I'm familiar with the BillBoard book of #1 hits. they do a 1-page write up of every song since the start of the rock era. they also include the Top 5 list [[although that only reflects the top 5 for the week that song first reached #1. if it's #1 for multiple weeks, you don't know how the makeup of Top 5 adjusts).

lots of fun memories with this book! was forever checking it out from library back in the day. eventually bought one from early 2000s.

[sup_fan]

The fascinating topic of the Supremes' best selling singles - information has always been scant and anything further is highly unlikely to emerge.

Someday We'll Be Together from reports at the time and Love Child are reckoned to be their two biggest selling singles.

Berry Gordy Jnr says in his autobiography that at the time of release Love Child became their biggest seller to date.

The 90s certifications are rather strange e.g. I had always understood Where Did Our Love Go was a bigger seller than Love Child.

At one stage the RIAA had dropped the threshold for certifications from 2m to 1m for Platinum and from 1m to 500k for Gold and this was made retrospective - many companies took advantage of this.

As has been said whie the Supremes' singles flew up the charts they also dropped away very quickly so sales may not be as great as you might think.

While there may not be so many million sellers there must undoubtedly be quite a few which sold 500k and not just the paltry few for which certifiaction was claimed.

I think Love Child is the perfect example. Why no certification for it?

The key is the Cashbox chart. During the 60s and most of the 70s this was compiled on sales alone. Love Child was a #1 and high in the top 10 during December 1968 the busiest selling period of the year - it certainly looks like a million seller to me but without question it was easily 500k+.

Apparently much of the documentation regarding the Supremes' sales had been "lost" and as a result only a handful of certifications could be claimed.

We may all have our own theories as to how this happened!

But it seemed strange to me that there didn't seem to be any problem with producing the sales evidence for the Temptations just a couple of yers later.

keep in mind a single would sell for YEARS after the initial release. So if Baby Love spent 13 weeks on the BillBoard 100, the single continued to be available at record stores for years after that. Those sales certainly flowed through as royalties to the girls but wouldn't have impacted the chart listings.

in the end, i'd assume all [[or very nearly all) of the #1 singles eventually sold 1 million copies. it's possible Back in Arms, Happening and Love is here [[all were shorter runs) didn't sell as well while Reflections, I'm Gonna, Stoned Love sold a million.

[sup_fan]

Bayou has mentioned on here that songs like What Becomes of the Brokenhearted were massive hits that sold tons, but didn't reach #1. I quickly pulled up the charts from 66 and WBOTB was on the charts for 16+ weeks. That's the same as what Love Child and Someday did

Marvin's Grapevine was on the charts about 15 weeks. of course 9 of those were at #1

but after it broke out of the top 10, it too disappeared quickly. within a couple weeks it was gone from the Top 100

[jobeterob]

I'm familiar with the BillBoard book of #1 hits. they do a 1-page write up of every song since the start of the rock era. they also include the Top 5 list [[although that only reflects the top 5 for the week that song first reached #1. if it's #1 for multiple weeks, you don't know how the makeup of Top 5 adjusts).

lots of fun memories with this book! was forever checking it out from library back in the day. eventually bought one from early 2000s.

There's lots of other book with more than that too; some specifically on R & B, some on albums, some on Top 100, some on artists. But they were pretty pricey.

And in the 60's, nothing stayed on the chart for long - 15 weeks would about max it out.

[Albator]

One wonders if there wasn't a policy of removing singles from the charts after a certain period of time.


3 Rolling Stones singles received gold records the year they were released.


Satisfaction charted 14w, Ruby Tuesday 13w, ans Honky Tonk Women 16w.


The rules of business in the 1960s are completely different from what they will become in the following decades.


From the end of November '68 to January '69, there are no less than 6 Supremes albums and 2 singles in the charts.

Greatest hits, Live in London, Funny Girl, TCB and Join the Temptations, Love Child LP, living in Shame, IWMYLM.

[jim aka jtigre99]

In another thread, someone told me that #1 positions don't have anything to do with record company push yet I find it a bit strange that the listings here say that "Stoned Love" was one of the biggest sellers, yet managed to only go to #7 on Billboard[[although it did hit #1 R&B) while other Supremes' #1 songs sold less. Is it possible that during the times they did get a #1 that people were buying less 45's? It seems the 60's were more about singles than the 70's but maybe less people were actually buying 45's? I just also find it odd that on the LP charts that NWBLS only charted at #68 with a top 10 hit yet High Energy was #42, yet only had a top 40 hit that was #40 for only 1 week.

[jobeterob]

Mary has said if their song got into the Top 10, it sold millions

I recall some interview saying they sold 750000 singles a week in 1965 or 1966

[RanRan79]

i'm not sure of how each compiled their rankings. sales, airplay.

I too am working on chart rankings for Billboard Pop charts. we all are very familiar with the peak positions on Billboard of the Sups/DR material but i wanted to better understand the climb to the peak and subsequent weeks. what i've found most surprising is how quickly a song drops off the charts. often the girls would peak and then spend a couple weeks in the top 10. but then 1 week they'd be in the low 20s and then GONE! completely out of the Top 100. it's surprising that songs didn't drift downwards but rather plummeted downward.

Sup, when you finish compiling your research, will you post it here in the forum? I've always been curious of the chart history of the group's singles and albums, such as how many weeks to peak position and how many weeks until it fell off the chart.

[RanRan79]

I have been wondering how great the sales of their singles were. Seems like most of their hits reached a peak and then taper off in sales. If I have to guess, I think Marvin Gaye was probably the best-selling singles artist on Motown. I could be wrong about that but that's the feeling I have.

Hasn't it been said that "Grapevine" was the label's biggest selling single? Or am I mistaken? If I were going to guess at who had the most best selling singles during the 60s and 70s, I would probably put my money on Stevie. He was killing the game in the 70s.

[sup_fan]

In another thread, someone told me that #1 positions don't have anything to do with record company push yet I find it a bit strange that the listings here say that "Stoned Love" was one of the biggest sellers, yet managed to only go to #7 on Billboard[[although it did hit #1 R&B) while other Supremes' #1 songs sold less. Is it possible that during the times they did get a #1 that people were buying less 45's? It seems the 60's were more about singles than the 70's but maybe less people were actually buying 45's? I just also find it odd that on the LP charts that NWBLS only charted at #68 with a top 10 hit yet High Energy was #42, yet only had a top 40 hit that was #40 for only 1 week.

there are a couple things here. Going to #1 doesn't necessarily mean "huge success." it does certainly claim a bit of honor and status. you're the best! but that doesn't mean a song that only goes to #10 sold poorly. I think the best way to look at it is 1) peak chart position AND 2) duration on the charts.

Stoned Love ties with Where and Come as 2nd longest Supremes charting singles on Billboard [[14 weeks). only Love Child and Someday had longer runs on the charts [[16 weeks). Bayou and some other fans have pointed out that some of the biggest selling songs from motown were NOT #1 hits - Brokenhearted, Gladys' Grapevine. These songs also ran for a LONG time on the charts.

As for New Ways, it's hard to say what went wrong. it receive two full-page ads in Billboard at different times. most other Sups albums didn't receive any, much less 2. lots of Sup singles did receive ads and sometimes that ad would credit the lp too.

I really do think the fact that Mag 7 and River Deep were released right on top of Stone and New Ways negatively impacted things. But New Ways also struggled early on in moving up the charts. usually the albums could catapult up during the first few weeks but New Ways limped along.

[sup_fan]

Sup, when you finish compiling your research, will you post it here in the forum? I've always been curious of the chart history of the group's singles and albums, such as how many weeks to peak position and how many weeks until it fell off the chart.

would love to - it's an excel file so i'm not exactly sure how to post it here. if nothing else i'm happy to share/email too. it's most certainly not proprietary data. the more we all have, the better i say

[sup_fan]

Hasn't it been said that "Grapevine" was the label's biggest selling single? Or am I mistaken? If I were going to guess at who had the most best selling singles during the 60s and 70s, I would probably put my money on Stevie. He was killing the game in the 70s.

i think Bayou has listed a few times on here some of the top singles from each year and yes, i believe he said Brokenhearted was top motown single of 66 and Gladys' Grapevine for 67. in 68, it would most certainly be marvin's Grapevine although i'd speculate that Love Child and I'm Gonna Make you love me would be high for motown too. IGMYLM had an amazing chart run - 8 weeks in top 10. just didn't quite squeeze into #1.

[RanRan79]

In another thread, someone told me that #1 positions don't have anything to do with record company push yet I find it a bit strange that the listings here say that "Stoned Love" was one of the biggest sellers, yet managed to only go to #7 on Billboard[[although it did hit #1 R&B) while other Supremes' #1 songs sold less. Is it possible that during the times they did get a #1 that people were buying less 45's? It seems the 60's were more about singles than the 70's but maybe less people were actually buying 45's? I just also find it odd that on the LP charts that NWBLS only charted at #68 with a top 10 hit yet High Energy was #42, yet only had a top 40 hit that was #40 for only 1 week.

Find me a number one record that didn't have any company push...some of the rhetoric around here is opposition to the thought that the 70s Supremes' lack of success had anything to do with Motown's backing, or lack thereof. IMO it's a fair argument, even if I don't totally agree. I think I read a post recently that said a label couldn't push a song to #1. I agree with that, if in fact #1 positions are a result in concrete data as opposed to arbitrary means, like someone voting on what the #1 song this week should be. But publicity, backing, money, anything that falls under promotion has to have an effect on whether or not a song [[or album) makes it up the charts. Of course at the end of the day one can have all the promotion in the world, but if a song sucks and results in little sales and little airplay, it is what it is. But you better believe that promotion is always the name of the game.

[sup_fan]

Mary has said if their song got into the Top 10, it sold millions

I recall some interview saying they sold 750000 singles a week in 1965 or 1966

in my excel file, i've listed the release date, the date it entered chart and then date it peaked. then i just note the chart position for Week 1, 2, 3 etc. So currently all of the singles line up at Week 1 and then go across. so you can see which had the longest runs, etc.

I've thought about running it out horizontally so each column is a week. with 52 weeks/year and all the years the girls were charting, this would be a LONG excel file. but then we'd be able to see what doing each week. For instance, you can clearly see the competition between Stone and River Deep. Also be interesting to see when the next releases were timed base on current single chart run. or were which weeks were the girls not only any charts at all?

albums ran MUCH longer. of course some of the "poorer" albums like Broadway only ran for 12 weeks. as did Funny Girl. But Where ran for a LONG time - 89 weeks!!!!!! of course much of that was bobbling down in the 80s and all. most of the big DMF lps were charting for months, if not close to a year.

[PeaceNHarmony]

Mary has said if their song got into the Top 10, it sold millions

I recall some interview saying they sold 750000 singles a week in 1965 or 1966Well, there's our inarguable answer!!

[PeaceNHarmony]

in my excel file, i've listed the release date, the date it entered chart and then date it peaked. then i just note the chart position for Week 1, 2, 3 etc. So currently all of the singles line up at Week 1 and then go across. so you can see which had the longest runs, etc.

I've thought about running it out horizontally so each column is a week. with 52 weeks/year and all the years the girls were charting, this would be a LONG excel file. but then we'd be able to see what doing each week. For instance, you can clearly see the competition between Stone and River Deep. Also be interesting to see when the next releases were timed base on current single chart run. or were which weeks were the girls not only any charts at all?

albums ran MUCH longer. of course some of the "poorer" albums like Broadway only ran for 12 weeks. as did Funny Girl. But Where ran for a LONG time - 89 weeks!!!!!! of course much of that was bobbling down in the 80s and all. most of the big DMF lps were charting for months, if not close to a year.This is great info, and I thank you for it. I actually find this type of statistic more interesting than actual sales units. The fact that a singles-oriented group had an lp on the charts for 89 weeks is quite significant.

[gman]

perhaps time of release had to do with lower chart numbers gaining bigger sales....weren't Stoned Love, River Deep and Remember Me all released in time for the big holiday season sales? Didn't most established acts/record companies always aim for big summer and big holiday hits?

[RanRan79]

As for New Ways, it's hard to say what went wrong. it receive two full-page ads in Billboard at different times. most other Sups albums didn't receive any, much less 2. lots of Sup singles did receive ads and sometimes that ad would credit the lp too.



Keep in mind also that Billboard, Cash Box and such were music industry trade magazines. They were not [[then or now) geared toward the general public. So when I learn that the trades carried promos for the group, all that it tells me is that the Supremes were still being marketed to the industry, such as venues looking to book acts that might put butts in the seats.

I'd be very interested in learning from a real music industry insider how record labels approach promotion. It's easy for us laymans to dissect this stuff, but I think we need more information. What was considered sufficient promotion? What was considered "pulling out all the stops"? There had to be an element of understanding that promotion wasn't the only factor. Take Gordy's memo to Motown staff [[Quality Control) that only #1 hits would be released on the Supremes. I figure that if promotion were all it took for a Supremes #1, that memo would've been unnecessary, as anything the Supremes did at that point would've hit the top spot on Gordy's will alone. The sound had to resonant with the public.

[sup_fan]

^yes there definitely seems to be a cyclical nature to releases. fall/holiday appears to be the biggest, which makes sense. get as many lps out there for little old grandmas and aunts to buy up for the kiddies for under the Christmas tree

[sup_fan]

we've been so focused here on the singles chart action, that i haven't really shared as much info on the chart runs of lps

1. Where and Greatest Hits are tied at 89 weeks. It appears that Billboard, though, changed their chart listings and expanded the albums from Top 150 to top 200. Where falls off on Week 89 at 121 while GH is at 165 for week 89. I'd assume that if the album charts did top 200 earlier, then Where would have remained for a few more weeks.

2. second longest lp run - At The Copa?!?!?! lolol i know. shocked me too. 54 weeks on the charts!

3. A Go go is 3rd, 52 weeks

4. More Hits and Symphony tie at 37 weeks

5. of the "concept" lps:
*liverpool - 21 weeks
*country - 8 weeks
*Sam Cooke - 19 weeks
*christmas - no chart data, note i'm only doing Pop. Not r&b, holiday or anything else. But i did see multiple ads for the album throughout the years. even for holiday 1970.
*r&h - 18 weeks
*funny girl - 12 weeks

6. live lps
*copa - ran forever lol
*TOTT - 17 weeks
*Farewell - 17 weeks

7. there's a definite drop in chart activity during the DRATS era. the two mega Temps albums are exceptions. but otherwise
*Reflections - 28 weeks
*Love child - 21 weeks
*sunshine - 18 weeks
*Cream - 19 weeks

8. for the new Sups, i have the first two albums done:
*Right On - 19 weeks
*new ways - 17 weeks

9. duets
*Join - 32 weeks
*TCB - 34 weeks
*Together - 18 weeks
*Broadway - 12 weeks
*Mag 7 - 16 weeks

10. DR solo - only just started these so not a lot of data to play with yet
*DR - 28 weeks
*Everything - TBD, i'm currently at 13 weeks. but there's more to do

[sup_fan]

as for the discussion about "were the 70s sups getting the promotion they deserve" it might be less a discussion of motown abandoning the 70s sups and the fact that the brand of THE SUPREMES was frankly on a long, slow die.

yes, DRATS had some incredible successes. but there's clearly a significant and massive drop in the chart successes of DMF vs DMC. although motown was pushing DRATS everywhere, people are just not buying their records as much. this trend really didn't change in the 70s. yes for a year or two, the singles had more chart consistency. But the lps weren't doing much

it'll be interesting to see how the DR solo material compares. frankly i predict it'll reflect the DRATS era with some amazing peaks and then tons of nondescript chart activity.

[SatansBlues]

as for the discussion about "were the 70s sups getting the promotion they deserve" it might be less a discussion of motown abandoning the 70s sups and the fact that the brand of THE SUPREMES was frankly on a long, slow die.

yes, DRATS had some incredible successes. but there's clearly a significant and massive drop in the chart successes of DMF vs DMC. although motown was pushing DRATS everywhere, people are just not buying their records as much. this trend really didn't change in the 70s. yes for a year or two, the singles had more chart consistency. But the lps weren't doing much

it'll be interesting to see how the DR solo material compares. frankly i predict it'll reflect the DRATS era with some amazing peaks and then tons of nondescript chart activity.
I wonder if album chart success was more of a function of oversupply, simply put, in '68 DRATS released 6 albums, SIX! That had to play a factor into sales and chart position. Starting with the Reflection album considering the group Greatest Hit album was still selling well at the time of that albums release. Then to release 5 additional albums in the last 5 months of '68. I'm not sure what the reasoning was behind that. And then to release another 5 albums in '69. How many fans were able to keep up with buying all those albums and singles on top of that?

[sup_fan]

i completely agree Satan. it was a situation of motown just continually flooding the market with material. guess they figured more is better than less. that trend continued post DRATS too. 4 lps released in 1970 and 4 released in the back half of 69. Plus one of those was an expensive double LP box set.

Maybe they figured that if they did 1 really, really good lp. they could get 500,000 sales

but if they did 8 decent lps, they'd actually earn more. if each of those weaker lps could sell 70K+, in the end the 8 lps would generate more total sales.

and as we know, motown was about $. not artistic integrity.

[Albator]

we've been so focused here on the singles chart action, that i haven't really shared as much info on the chart runs of lps

1. Where and Greatest Hits are tied at 89 weeks. It appears that Billboard, though, changed their chart listings and expanded the albums from Top 150 to top 200. Where falls off on Week 89 at 121 while GH is at 165 for week 89. I'd assume that if the album charts did top 200 earlier, then Where would have remained for a few more weeks.

2. second longest lp run - At The Copa?!?!?! lolol i know. shocked me too. 54 weeks on the charts!

3. A Go go is 3rd, 52 weeks

4. More Hits and Symphony tie at 37 weeks


I'm slightly different :confused:

- Go go, 59w from sept 24, 1966 to nov 4, 1967
- Symphony, 27w from March 19 to sept 10, 1966

Longest in the Top 10

- Greatest : 24w
- WDOLG : 19w
- Go go : 15w
- TCB: 12w
- D&S joins Temptation : 8w
- IHAS : 6w
- Sings HDH : 5w
- MHBTS : 4w

Not in the top 30

- Sing C&W
- remember Sam Cook
- Funny Girl [[not in top 100)
- TOTT
- G.I.T
- Cream
- Greatest hits 3

[sup_fan]

Longest billboard top Top 10


Greatest - 24 weeks
Where - 19 weeks
A Go go - 15 weeks
TCB - 11
join temps - 8
symphony - 6
Sing HDH - 5 [[non consecutive)
more hits - 4

[PeaceNHarmony]

as for the discussion about "were the 70s sups getting the promotion they deserve" it might be less a discussion of motown abandoning the 70s sups and the fact that the brand of THE SUPREMES was frankly on a long, slow die.

yes, DRATS had some incredible successes. but there's clearly a significant and massive drop in the chart successes of DMF vs DMC. although motown was pushing DRATS everywhere, people are just not buying their records as much. this trend really didn't change in the 70s. yes for a year or two, the singles had more chart consistency. But the lps weren't doing much

it'll be interesting to see how the DR solo material compares. frankly i predict it'll reflect the DRATS era with some amazing peaks and then tons of nondescript chart activity.Yes. I agree and have noted before the 'brand' was simply exhausted.

[sup_fan]

yep. there was a "perk up" when Diana left and Jean joined. but then it seems the general public started to drift again. the music the girls were doing was superb. but they needed bigger, more dynamic updates and more often. there MAYBE was a chance when they re-emerged in 75 as "glam disco girls" but with Mary attempting in vain to be a pop/dance singer, their sloppy live shows and motown's lack of support/horrible management by Mary & pedro, it was a lost cause

[midnightman]

Bayou has mentioned on here that songs like What Becomes of the Brokenhearted were massive hits that sold tons, but didn't reach #1. I quickly pulled up the charts from 66 and WBOTB was on the charts for 16+ weeks. That's the same as what Love Child and Someday did

Marvin's Grapevine was on the charts about 15 weeks. of course 9 of those were at #1

but after it broke out of the top 10, it too disappeared quickly. within a couple weeks it was gone from the Top 100

As Albator said, most singles before the '80s didn't have long lives on the top 40 so a song that stayed 17 weeks was considered a record in those days.

[Albator]

Charts for Stoned Love

Cashbox top 100, Cashbox soul charts, Billboard hot 100, Billboard soul charts



STONED LOVE
CB
CB B

B
BB


October 31
84

October 31




November 7
65
43
November 7
61



November 14
54
35
November 14
48
33


November 21
26
28
November 21
22
17


November 28
20
22
November 28
21
11


December 5
15
14
December 5
20
5


December 12
12
6
December 12
12
5


December 19
9
2
December 19
7
2


December 26
8
2
December 26
7
1


January 2
6
1
January 2
8
3


January 9
6
2
January 9
8
11


January 16
5
7
January 16
8
14


January 23
11
14
January 23
12
17


January 30
21
18
January 30
21
18


February 6
71
22
February 6
26
20


February 13

29
February 13

30


February 20

49

[Bluebrock]

yep. there was a "perk up" when Diana left and Jean joined. but then it seems the general public started to drift again. the music the girls were doing was superb. but they needed bigger, more dynamic updates and more often. there MAYBE was a chance when they re-emerged in 75 as "glam disco girls" but with Mary attempting in vain to be a pop/dance singer, their sloppy live shows and motown's lack of support/horrible management by Mary & pedro, it was a lost cause

Good points. What i could never understand is how poor the choreography was with the MSC line up and later the MSS line up. They had the best part of two years to practice and make their live shows and tv appearances slick and professional. They were all over the place. Who the hell was in charge of this? Was it Mary and/or Pedro? It is little wonder these line ups floundered. They sounded great on record, but could not repeat that formula in a live setting.
Mary was indeed totally out of her comfort zone performing leads that should have gone to Scherrie, but even so they were a hot mess and that was never something you could accuse previous line ups of being. The public no longer identified with the Supremes and voted with their feet. A sad ending for the greatest female group of all time.

[PeaceNHarmony]

Good points. What i could never understand is how poor the choreography was with the MSC line up and later the MSS line up. They had the best part of two years to practice and make their live shows and tv appearances slick and professional. They were all over the place. Who the hell was in charge of this? Was it Mary and/or Pedro? It is little wonder these line ups floundered. They sounded great on record, but could not repeat that formula in a live setting.
Mary was indeed totally out of her comfort zone performing leads that should have gone to Scherrie, but even so they were a hot mess and that was never something you could accuse previous line ups of being. The public no longer identified with the Supremes and voted with their feet. A sad ending for the greatest female group of all time.In Wiilson's novelxxx I mean memoir she did mention not being able to afford a choreographer.

[sup_fan]

I agree. there was always a polish to the group before and often that was missing. Now when MSC did something like The Way We Were on Merv, it came across beautiful. I think MSS with Udo doing Walk Away was another strong moment. and the MSS Soul Train clips were hot too, for the most part.

Their performance of Come Into My Life is very well done. new sexy gowns [[that were some stupid chiffon ball gown), Mary and Scherrie execute VERY complicated background movements very well.

But then you have moments like MSC doing HMM on Tonight Show.

My guess [[and it's just a guess) is that there simply wasn't enough focus or discipline with the group leadership and management - Mary and pedro. Their focus was to spotlight Mary and continue to hang onto a tired image of the Sups. They had the misguided notion that they were going to launch her pop career. with the addition of S and S, they should have realized this was a wonderful new opportunity and sound for the group. mary should have recognized the best way for her to shine was a PART of the group. S and S should have been used in writing and production roles.

[Bluebrock]

In Wiilson's novelxxx I mean memoir she did mention not being able to afford a choreographer.

That would explain a lot, but i am sure they could have got some help and advice from somewhere?My 8 and 6 year old grandaughters have more polish and co-ordination than the latter line ups.

[reese]

That would explain a lot, but i am sure they could have got some help and advice from somewhere?My 8 and 6 year old grandaughters have more polish and co-ordination than the latter line ups.

Geoffrey Holder did some of their choreography. Mary included a rehearsal photo of Geoffrey, Susaye, and herself in her second book.

[Circa 1824]

Airplay is the only thing that matters because the music then becomes part of the fabric of the nation. More airplay over more sales ANY DAY of the week.

[RanRan79]

with the addition of S and S, they should have realized this was a wonderful new opportunity and sound for the group. mary should have recognized the best way for her to shine was a PART of the group. S and S should have been used in writing and production roles.

Mary did recognize this, that's why Scherrie ended up with most of the leads during that time. At no point does Mary have more leads than Scherrie, I don't think. And in theory, Susaye should've gotten more leads, but seeing how I'm not a fan of her voice- brilliant vocalist as I believe her to be- I'm not mad about this. Susaye definitely should have been given some writing duties. She was already a hit songwriter. Has she ever said this was something she attempted for the Supremes?

Obviously Mary's abilities as a member of a group vs soloist is subjective, but it's so difficult for me to understand why she is faulted for wanting to try things on her own. At some point grown folks want to break out of the same ole same ole they've been doing since they were 13/14 years old. At what point do you stretch your wings? It was time.

[gman]

Mary was always my favorite Supreme....the eye's made that decision early on.
I came on board around Love Child/TCB, so Flo was already gone and I am partial to the sweeter less sharp sound of Cindy.
If the group continued w/o Mary, I would have probably remained a fan...but a much less interested and dedicated one....I am not a fan of stratospheric high pitch voices..they are too cool for me....I like deeper, warmer tones. Scherrie was fine, 90% of Jean's leads I'm good with....there are 1 or 2 cuts on Right On and a few on the Webb LP where she is too shrill for me
If Susaye had been given more than 2 cuts per LP, I would've dropped off.

[RanRan79]

Mary was always my favorite Supreme....the eye's made that decision early on.
I came on board around Love Child/TCB, so Flo was already gone and I am partial to the sweeter less sharp sound of Cindy.
If the group continued w/o Mary, I would have probably remained a fan...but a much less interested and dedicated one....I am not a fan of stratospheric high pitch voices..they are too cool for me....I like deeper, warmer tones. Scherrie was fine, 90% of Jean's leads I'm good with....there are 1 or 2 cuts on Right On and a few on the Webb LP where she is too shrill for me
If Susaye had been given more than 2 cuts per LP, I would've dropped off.

Your taste is a lot like mine in regards to high voices. It's crazy that Diana and Jean have ended up among my absolute favorite singers of all time, despite their high singing. [[Deniece Williams is another one.) I like the song "High Energy" and probably would have regardless of who sung it. I never listen to "Come Into My Life" and I really do believe that Susaye's mix with Mary and Scherrie was what threw the Supremes overboard. Scherrie was a ready made lead singer, Mary was coming into her own as a lead singer, they did not need a third lead singer, especially one who believed- and rightfully so- that she should not have to play backup singer to anybody. So the result on stage was three lead singers competing for the lead, even in harmony. Susaye may have fared better pursuing a solo deal while a non lead singer was brought in to take Cindy's spot, Cindy herself being a non lead singer.

[gman]

Your taste is a lot like mine in regards to high voices. It's crazy that Diana and Jean have ended up among my absolute favorite singers of all time, despite their high singing. [[Deniece Williams is another one.) I like the song "High Energy" and probably would have regardless of who sung it. I never listen to "Come Into My Life" and I really do believe that Susaye's mix with Mary and Scherrie was what threw the Supremes overboard. Scherrie was a ready made lead singer, Mary was coming into her own as a lead singer, they did not need a third lead singer, especially one who believed- and rightfully so- that she should not have to play backup singer to anybody. So the result on stage was three lead singers competing for the lead, even in harmony. Susaye may have fared better pursuing a solo deal while a non lead singer was brought in to take Cindy's spot, Cindy herself being a non lead singer.

thank you..I just happen to like deeper warmer voices...Patsy Cline Connie Francis, Dusty, Dottie West...Chrissie Hynde, Joplin...contralto types...Love all the Pointers...Anita is smooth, June's sharp, and Ruth is MUCH huskier than Mary!

[jobeterob]

I think what caused the demise was they got stuck with a dated image of glamour that the couldn’t manage their way out of; Labelle had 3 lead singers and hit their stride in the 70’s. It was the era of the singer songwriter and the Supremes were dated.

They had a chance at change especially with Susaye but there was no way Mary and Pedro would allow that

[RanRan79]

thank you..I just happen to like deeper warmer voices...Patsy Cline Connie Francis, Dusty, Dottie West...Chrissie Hynde, Joplin...contralto types...Love all the Pointers...Anita is smooth, June's sharp, and Ruth is MUCH huskier than Mary!

I dig Patsy, and Dusty really did have a very nice voice. Don't get me started on the Pointers. They are right behind the Supremes in terms of my favorite female groups, I think. And I love every last one of their voices, but especially Ruth's. There is a certain warmth to voices like these that I usually don't find in higher voices.

[RanRan79]

I think what caused the demise was they got stuck with a dated image of glamour that the couldn’t manage their way out of; Labelle had 3 lead singers and hit their stride in the 70’s. It was the era of the singer songwriter and the Supremes were dated.

They had a chance at change especially with Susaye but there was no way Mary and Pedro would allow that

Labelle had also been together for eons and learned how to play their positions. [[Although there were times when Patti was all over the place.) The three original Supremes were all lead singers also, but there was never a time where they refused to blend or play the part they were given in any song. MSS was all over the place, each lady always seemed to be trying to be heard over the other two, even in the background. And as a result, IMO, it comes across like a bunch of noise, so it's not hard for me to imagine that audiences that were subjected to this in real time would've been largely put off.

As I was reminded in a thread not long ago, we have to keep in mind that where decisions were concerned, by 1976 Mary was a victim of domestic violence. This lady was getting beat up by this nut for something as simple as refusing to take his brother to see Al Green. So we can't pretend that whatever Mary said went. Pedro was running that show. Not to say Mary didn't agree with certain decisions. The following passage in Supreme Faith [[page 158) explains a lot:

"Pedro insisted I be given more leads, which created a degree of tension. Some people saw this as me just flexing my ego, but it was a matter of survival. I finally accepted the responsibility to prepare myself for future personnel changes and possibly the end of the group. After all my years in the Supremes, I was still the least known of the originals. Record buyers and club-goers assumed there were no original Supremes left...As I prepared to sing my leads, Scherrie grew very quiet, and Cindy acted strangely. We'd rehearsed for days, but wouldn't you know it, once in the studio I lost my voice! It as totally psychological; I was scared to death and felt guilty taking leads meant for Scherrie. I wasn't ready to really step out as a full lead singer."

While I often criticize Mary for always taking the safe route instead of the risks, there is something to be said about her will to just survive. Everything she had been doing since the Flo years of the group was about Mary surviving. She was always trying to figure out a way to keep her spot in the group, and then when it became clear that a day might come where there is no group, there had to be a plan in place to survive. Whether she had anything to do with that on her own, or if it was Pedro in her ear hoping to secure his own meal ticket in the event the group fizzled, it was still the best plan for Mary at that point.

[sup_fan]

Your taste is a lot like mine in regards to high voices. It's crazy that Diana and Jean have ended up among my absolute favorite singers of all time, despite their high singing. [[Deniece Williams is another one.) I like the song "High Energy" and probably would have regardless of who sung it. I never listen to "Come Into My Life" and I really do believe that Susaye's mix with Mary and Scherrie was what threw the Supremes overboard. Scherrie was a ready made lead singer, Mary was coming into her own as a lead singer, they did not need a third lead singer, especially one who believed- and rightfully so- that she should not have to play backup singer to anybody. So the result on stage was three lead singers competing for the lead, even in harmony. Susaye may have fared better pursuing a solo deal while a non lead singer was brought in to take Cindy's spot, Cindy herself being a non lead singer.

If you go through youtube, you'll find a few older videos of Susaye as a Raylette. The group sounds lovely and the singers are blending.

While i agree that the live clips of MSS are a mess, i don't know that it's as simple as just saying it was 3 lead singers competing against one another.

The problem was the group wasn't being managed to control for such things. Mary's mic was always turned up too high, the staging was a disaster. their approach to live singing was what was the problem.

When they did My World Is Empty, it was stellar as the vocal parts were kept in line. Susaye and mary had gorgeous harmonies and backed up Scherrie very well

Then listen to Let Yourself Go. on the record, there's an echo effect on the word "go" which makes it ring. they couldn't do this live so that's why the girls are all shouting out "go" all over the place. horrible decision. Also the choreography was so demanding that they out of breath.

Whomever was managing the group should have had the ear and the authority to edit some of this. There are times when Susaye is doing too much ad libbing - so a manager should have been able to say "pull it back." The manager should have worked with the arrange and conductor to improve the live renditions.

[sup_fan]

Mary did recognize this, that's why Scherrie ended up with most of the leads during that time. At no point does Mary have more leads than Scherrie, I don't think. And in theory, Susaye should've gotten more leads, but seeing how I'm not a fan of her voice- brilliant vocalist as I believe her to be- I'm not mad about this. Susaye definitely should have been given some writing duties. She was already a hit songwriter. Has she ever said this was something she attempted for the Supremes?

Obviously Mary's abilities as a member of a group vs soloist is subjective, but it's so difficult for me to understand why she is faulted for wanting to try things on her own. At some point grown folks want to break out of the same ole same ole they've been doing since they were 13/14 years old. At what point do you stretch your wings? It was time.

i certainly do not begrudge Mary for wanting to experiment and try things out. nothing wrong with that. Clearly Diana benefited from that in the early days. But that doesn't mean that content should be released.

If they'd stuck with more of a pop formula [[like the Ivey/Woodford tracks on Sup 75), there very well could have been more of mary to do. You Turn Me Around is a lovely ballad. and, with testing and learning, she could have maybe done more with the standard pop tunes. But we do have her on leads for Give out and while it's nice enough, it pales compared to the Scherrie lead. and the 3lead version of Sha La is also fine enough but the full scherrie lead really is best. IMO

once the girls really focused on a more hard-core disco sound, scherrie was rightly doing the leads.

[RanRan79]

If you go through youtube, you'll find a few older videos of Susaye as a Raylette. The group sounds lovely and the singers are blending.

While i agree that the live clips of MSS are a mess, i don't know that it's as simple as just saying it was 3 lead singers competing against one another.

The problem was the group wasn't being managed to control for such things. Mary's mic was always turned up too high, the staging was a disaster. their approach to live singing was what was the problem.

When they did My World Is Empty, it was stellar as the vocal parts were kept in line. Susaye and mary had gorgeous harmonies and backed up Scherrie very well

Then listen to Let Yourself Go. on the record, there's an echo effect on the word "go" which makes it ring. they couldn't do this live so that's why the girls are all shouting out "go" all over the place. horrible decision. Also the choreography was so demanding that they out of breath.

Whomever was managing the group should have had the ear and the authority to edit some of this. There are times when Susaye is doing too much ad libbing - so a manager should have been able to say "pull it back." The manager should have worked with the arrange and conductor to improve the live renditions.

They absolutely needed a qualified manager. Definitely in agreement there. But Mary was a 15+ year veteran of the business, her talent at harmony very much respected by those she had worked with; the Supremes were not Scherrie's first rodeo when it came to a group; and Susaye, as you point out, was a member of the Raylettes, itself an institution. Manager or no manager, there was no excuse for the way they came across live and no explanation other than they went on stage and each lady said "fuck them, I will be heard tonight!".:cool:

[RanRan79]

i certainly do not begrudge Mary for wanting to experiment and try things out. nothing wrong with that. Clearly Diana benefited from that in the early days. But that doesn't mean that content should be released.

If they'd stuck with more of a pop formula [[like the Ivey/Woodford tracks on Sup 75), there very well could have been more of mary to do. You Turn Me Around is a lovely ballad. and, with testing and learning, she could have maybe done more with the standard pop tunes. But we do have her on leads for Give out and while it's nice enough, it pales compared to the Scherrie lead. and the 3lead version of Sha La is also fine enough but the full scherrie lead really is best. IMO

once the girls really focused on a more hard-core disco sound, scherrie was rightly doing the leads.

We will always be in agreement that Mary's forte was not disco. But I'm of the opinion that the Supremes shouldn't have been doing disco in the first place. I get why, as it was increasingly being the go to genre if you wanted to make some noise, but that wasn't the place for the Supremes. They should have been doing stuff like the Emotions, maybe even the Pointers. The group HOT also had a number of tunes that were in line for what I think the Supremes should've been doing. "Heart Walking" managed to make some noise, and who knows how far it might have gotten with more of a push from Motown. But aside from "He's My Man" and "High Energy", Scherrie was the lead singer on singles and the group's songs still did nothing.

"Sha La Bandit"...I'm of the opposite opinion here. I don't care for Scherrie's full lead versions, but I love the shared lead version and Scherrie's verse is my fav. Go figure that.

[gman]

Imagine Patti Susaye and Lynda in the same trio??? that would surely be a scream fest

[jobeterob]

Imagine Patti Susaye and Lynda in the same trio??? that would surely be a scream fest

And the Supremes were never about screaming and shrieking - well, not other than when Mary wasn't happy with Motown 25 or RTL.

[PeaceNHarmony]

And the Supremes were never about screaming and shrieking - well, not other than when Mary wasn't happy with Motown 25 or RTL.Oh, you cheeky man, you :D

[midnightman]

Imagine Patti Susaye and Lynda in the same trio??? that would surely be a scream fest

Oh God no!

[sup_fan]

They absolutely needed a qualified manager. Definitely in agreement there. But Mary was a 15+ year veteran of the business, her talent at harmony very much respected by those she had worked with; the Supremes were not Scherrie's first rodeo when it came to a group; and Susaye, as you point out, was a member of the Raylettes, itself an institution. Manager or no manager, there was no excuse for the way they came across live and no explanation other than they went on stage and each lady said "fuck them, I will be heard tonight!".:cool:

haha - no i completely agree with you on that too. I'm not sure why there was so much ad libbing and all. were they trying to prove to everyone they were all powerhouse singers?

I'm assuming that back in the day, Berry would have given very specific and detailed notes/feedback on performances. If one of the girls ad libbed something or adding too much, i'm sure he put a stop to it. Also back in the day, the girls would want clips of themselves to see what did or didn't work. and of course Gil, Maurice, Cholly and others were there to advise them too.

I also thought that the girls did too much 3-part harmony. sort of hard to believe i'm saying that but i do think it. not every single song needs to be 100% 3-part harmony. especially when they're singing the same words. it can get muddy and blurred. Like on some of The Way We Were, the vocals are messy. especially that idiotic "ooo,oooo,oooo" part towards the end. They needed better arrangements

[RanRan79]

haha - no i completely agree with you on that too. I'm not sure why there was so much ad libbing and all. were they trying to prove to everyone they were all powerhouse singers?

I'm assuming that back in the day, Berry would have given very specific and detailed notes/feedback on performances. If one of the girls ad libbed something or adding too much, i'm sure he put a stop to it. Also back in the day, the girls would want clips of themselves to see what did or didn't work. and of course Gil, Maurice, Cholly and others were there to advise them too.



Agreed. The 60s Supremes were tightly managed and directed. While Gordy was at the head, there were many people playing positions on the Supremes team. There was obviously none of that in the 70s. It begs the question: what if Gordy had never "washed his hands" and had given the 70s Supremes as much focus as he did the 60s version? Certainly the group would've been a different live act. Gordy would've never allowed what eventually happened on stage to happen under his watch. But would it have meant more hits? Better quality music? I insist that the 70s Supremes recorded some really great stuff, especially with Jean, whose inclusion on any song is- to me- like the points you get on a test for even spelling your name correctly. It's just an automatic plus. However, when I listen to their music- singles and albums- alongside other female groups of the day, there's something lacking in most of what the Supremes recorded. There's a warmth in the overall production that I find lacking. That's the best way I can describe it. I wonder if Gordy would've saw to it that they move in a different sound direction.

[gman]

I'm not a big fan of the last line ups live work....but perhaps they were going for what a lot of people say they should have [[Labelle, Emotions, Pointers)....bring up all 3 voices, looser structure...like Labelle. Nona and Sarah knew how to pull back and as a trio had years of experience singing together....MSS lacked the time and familiarity. I wasn't aware of Labelle's music other than Lady Marmalade... I was however familiar with some of Nona's mid 80's solo work [[I Sweat, Why Should I Cry?) a rock station played The Revolution and Can I Speak to You one night, and I decided to get a best of CD....I like it a lot. The Emotions I never cared for...harmony always seemed too high pitched for me...Pointers? I had Steppin' and loved it...the long Betcha Got A Chick and a great Duke Ellington medley...the Pointers had rock cred for covering Bruce's FIRE, and later had the advantage of massive MTV video exposure....the 70's Supremes were too early to benefit from cleverly staged studio track videos

[sup_fan]

maybe the group just got stale. someone just posted reviews of Diana's major productions in 76 and 78. and of course most of us have seen the 79 Boss tour video at Caesar's. not only was each one a massive production, but there's considerable variety in the content and what she's doing. clearly she sat down with the director and brainstormed ideas - the movie images on her caftan, the mimes and dancers, the lifestages in Evening with [[the focus on black female pioneers, the motown segment, then motherhood and The Point).

of course the supremes couldn't copy this but they needed something new and different. I have a bunch of bootlegs of their jean shows and, while they're enjoyable, they're frankly not all that different from one another. nor are they radically different from the shows when Diana was around.

As a solo act, Diana certainly had the flexibility to shift, change and explore new things. perhaps the group framework makes that much more challenging.

[marv2]

maybe the group just got stale. someone just posted reviews of Diana's major productions in 76 and 78. and of course most of us have seen the 79 Boss tour video at Caesar's. not only was each one a massive production, but there's considerable variety in the content and what she's doing. clearly she sat down with the director and brainstormed ideas - the movie images on her caftan, the mimes and dancers, the lifestages in Evening with [[the focus on black female pioneers, the motown segment, then motherhood and The Point).

of course the supremes couldn't copy this but they needed something new and different. I have a bunch of bootlegs of their jean shows and, while they're enjoyable, they're frankly not all that different from one another. nor are they radically different from the shows when Diana was around.

As a solo act, Diana certainly had the flexibility to shift, change and explore new things. perhaps the group framework makes that much more challenging.

Diana Ross also had the financial backing from Motown to invest in her new act. The Supremes and other Motown artists did not! You never seem to want to own up to that fact.

[sup_fan]

Berry invested some of his own money in Lady but the rest would have been recouped for motown against royalties. they didn't simply invest money in DR without being paid back. Sure, those funds would have helped develop a new concept and the Sups didn't have that. But the money used to develop the DR shows wasn't a gift. She paid that back. Similar to how motown invested in the J5 tours and Commodores too.

[sup_fan]

i've now completed the chart listings through Bad Weather.

some insights to share:

BW spent 14 weeks on the charts, if you include the "Bubbling Under" listings. it only reached 87 on the Top 100 and was only in the Top 100 for 1 week. but all these other weeks it sat around 101, 103, 108. it's like it was just stuck there. The girls performed it on Soul Train on 5/12, Bob Hope on 4/19 and then whenever the Kate Smith special was. it also got a full-page Billboard ad

speaking of the billboard ads, they were rather hit/miss after the initial ones. There were multiple ads for Stoned and NW. Nathan got one as did River and Everybody, which also included a plug for RO lp. I Guess Miss Man got a full page ad but none of the FJ songs nor lp got one. There were ads promoting FJ along with other Motown lps.

there was ton of promotion around Lady, no surprise.

[reese]

i've now completed the chart listings through Bad Weather.

some insights to share:

BW spent 14 weeks on the charts, if you include the "Bubbling Under" listings. it only reached 87 on the Top 100 and was only in the Top 100 for 1 week. but all these other weeks it sat around 101, 103, 108. it's like it was just stuck there. The girls performed it on Soul Train on 5/12, Bob Hope on 4/19 and then whenever the Kate Smith special was. it also got a full-page Billboard ad


From what I've found on-line, The Kate Smith special was syndicated in June of 1973. Considering the single was released in March, it seems that by the time that show aired, it was too late to do the single any good. But 14 weeks on the chart also seems a long time for a single that didn't hit. There must have been some interest but they couldn't quite break out.

[Albator]

i've now completed the chart listings through Bad Weather.

some insights to share:

BW spent 14 weeks on the charts, if you include the "Bubbling Under" listings. it only reached 87 on the Top 100 and was only in the Top 100 for 1 week. but all these other weeks it sat around 101, 103, 108. it's like it was just stuck there. The girls performed it on Soul Train on 5/12, Bob Hope on 4/19 and then whenever the Kate Smith special was. it also got a full-page Billboard ad

speaking of the billboard ads, they were rather hit/miss after the initial ones. There were multiple ads for Stoned and NW. Nathan got one as did River and Everybody, which also included a plug for RO lp. I Guess Miss Man got a full page ad but none of the FJ songs nor lp got one. There were ads promoting FJ along with other Motown lps.

there was ton of promotion around Lady, no surprise.I fear that at Motown, in the seventies, they were lost with promoting artists. Not just the Supremes but Diana Ross as well.

[Albator]

SUPREMES
Royal Hawaiian, Falls Church, Va.


“High Energy” is not only the name of the Supremes’ latest Motown album—it also serves to describe the voltage of their present stage show as well.

The group's April 24 set here was significant in that it marked the debut of the newest Supreme, Susay Greene, former member of Stevie Wonder's back-up group Wonderlove.
While Greene's stature is petite, her talent proves to be enormous, and her vocal range very wade. Her lead vocal on “Long And Winding Road/He Ain't Heavy He's My Brother” drew several ovations.
Mary Wilson's supremacy as songstress remains evident with each tune that she caresses.
Her “Don't Let My Teardrops Bother you” from the new LP is a perfect showcase for her distinctive vocal style. Wilson also delivers a standout solo on "Song For You/How Lucky Can You Get?”
The entire act is fresher and tighter than
ever, especially on the bright uptempo sound of “I'm Gonna Let My Heart Do The Walking” which is already on national disco charts. The song allows Scherrie Payne to cut loose with full-throttle wattage on the lead, while Wilson and Greene deliver the driving choral work that the group is famous for.
The concept of the Supremes in their present form is no longer a single lead and two back-ground singers; rather three unique ladies who shine as soloists as well as a team. Previous gold including “Stoned Love,” “Someday We'll Be Together,” “Stop In The Name Of Love” were delivered with alternating leads and updated arrangements that put the set's emphasis on the present strength of the triad, rather than on that of past glory.
Embellishments including many costume changes and clever bits of choreographed material by Geoffrey Holder, who directed Broadway's “The Wiz" help give the show a theatrical flair throughout.

MARK BEGO - Billboard May 8,1976

[sup_fan]

I fear that at Motown, in the seventies, they were lost with promoting artists. Not just the Supremes but Diana Ross as well.

i agree. Between the move to LA and their trying to break into movies/Hollywood, it's clear that the music side of things faltered.

[floyjoy678]

SUPREMES
Royal Hawaiian, Falls Church, Va.


“High Energy” is not only the name of the Supremes’ latest Motown album—it also serves to describe the voltage of their present stage show as well.

The group's April 24 set here was significant in that it marked the debut of the newest Supreme, Susay Greene, former member of Stevie Wonder's back-up group Wonderlove.
While Greene's stature is petite, her talent proves to be enormous, and her vocal range very wade. Her lead vocal on “Long And Winding Road/He Ain't Heavy He's My Brother” drew several ovations.
Mary Wilson's supremacy as songstress remains evident with each tune that she caresses.
Her “Don't Let My Teardrops Bother you” from the new LP is a perfect showcase for her distinctive vocal style. Wilson also delivers a standout solo on "Song For You/How Lucky Can You Get?”
The entire act is fresher and tighter than
ever, especially on the bright uptempo sound of “I'm Gonna Let My Heart Do The Walking” which is already on national disco charts. The song allows Scherrie Payne to cut loose with full-throttle wattage on the lead, while Wilson and Greene deliver the driving choral work that the group is famous for.
The concept of the Supremes in their present form is no longer a single lead and two back-ground singers; rather three unique ladies who shine as soloists as well as a team. Previous gold including “Stoned Love,” “Someday We'll Be Together,” “Stop In The Name Of Love” were delivered with alternating leads and updated arrangements that put the set's emphasis on the present strength of the triad, rather than on that of past glory.
Embellishments including many costume changes and clever bits of choreographed material by Geoffrey Holder, who directed Broadway's “The Wiz" help give the show a theatrical flair throughout.

MARK BEGO - Billboard May 8,1976

You see who wrote that review right? I don't trust that man.

[sup_fan]

true. Mark's devotion to Mary certainly doesn't make him an unbiased source. Still it is good that he got some additional publicity into Billboard

Also i never knew Susaye [[or any of the women for that matter) did Long Winding Road live.

[reese]

true. Mark's devotion to Mary certainly doesn't make him an unbiased source. Still it is good that he got some additional publicity into Billboard

Also i never knew Susaye [[or any of the women for that matter) did Long Winding Road live.

I wonder if that is just a mistake. Susaye had a solo with HE AIN'T HEAVY, HE'S MY BROTHER. The first line of that song is "The road is long with many a winding turn..." Bego might have been confused by that.

[jobeterob]

Diana Ross also had the financial backing from Motown to invest in her new act. The Supremes and other Motown artists did not! You never seem to want to own up to that fact.

The Supremes after 1970 never made enough money to be able to repay any investment in them by anyone - that’s why neither they nor Mary ever landed another recording contract

[Bluebrock]

I wonder if that is just a mistake. Susaye had a solo with HE AIN'T HEAVY, HE'S MY BROTHER. The first line of that song is "The road is long with many a winding turn..." Bego might have been confused by that.
That is the most likely explanation reese. Bego is hardly renowned as a reliable and trustworthy source.

[marv2]

Berry invested some of his own money in Lady but the rest would have been recouped for motown against royalties. they didn't simply invest money in DR without being paid back. Sure, those funds would have helped develop a new concept and the Sups didn't have that. But the money used to develop the DR shows wasn't a gift. She paid that back. Similar to how motown invested in the J5 tours and Commodores too.

That is not true! Berry Gordy has said out of his own mouth that he never broke even on Diana Ross recordings and that he did what he did out of love. He went on to say that recording Diana Ross was very costly. Now what he meant by that......I do not know.

[marv2]

i've now completed the chart listings through Bad Weather.

some insights to share:

BW spent 14 weeks on the charts, if you include the "Bubbling Under" listings. it only reached 87 on the Top 100 and was only in the Top 100 for 1 week. but all these other weeks it sat around 101, 103, 108. it's like it was just stuck there. The girls performed it on Soul Train on 5/12, Bob Hope on 4/19 and then whenever the Kate Smith special was. it also got a full-page Billboard ad

speaking of the billboard ads, they were rather hit/miss after the initial ones. There were multiple ads for Stoned and NW. Nathan got one as did River and Everybody, which also included a plug for RO lp. I Guess Miss Man got a full page ad but none of the FJ songs nor lp got one. There were ads promoting FJ along with other Motown lps.

there was ton of promotion around Lady, no surprise.

The truth is kids, teenagers and the general record-buying public do not read Billboard magazine. It is an industry/trade publication, so any ads place in it, most people in the general population would never see them. The Supremes did their part to promote "Bad Weather", but it was nearly impossible to find a copy of the record in stores at that time. Also, when you would call your local radio station to request it, they would tell you that they never got the record from Motown. This happened all over the country at that time. The fans were very frustrated over it and the Supremes were of course.

[marv2]

I'm not a big fan of the last line ups live work....but perhaps they were going for what a lot of people say they should have [[Labelle, Emotions, Pointers)....bring up all 3 voices, looser structure...like Labelle. Nona and Sarah knew how to pull back and as a trio had years of experience singing together....MSS lacked the time and familiarity. I wasn't aware of Labelle's music other than Lady Marmalade... I was however familiar with some of Nona's mid 80's solo work [[I Sweat, Why Should I Cry?) a rock station played The Revolution and Can I Speak to You one night, and I decided to get a best of CD....I like it a lot. The Emotions I never cared for...harmony always seemed too high pitched for me...Pointers? I had Steppin' and loved it...the long Betcha Got A Chick and a great Duke Ellington medley...the Pointers had rock cred for covering Bruce's FIRE, and later had the advantage of massive MTV video exposure....the 70's Supremes were too early to benefit from cleverly staged studio track videos

Gman, very good observations. Had the Supremes continued on into the 80s I am sure they would have produced some great music videos.

[sup_fan]

The truth is kids, teenagers and the general record-buying public do not read Billboard magazine. It is an industry/trade publication, so any ads place in it, most people in the general population would never see them. The Supremes did their part to promote "Bad Weather", but it was nearly impossible to find a copy of the record in stores at that time. Also, when you would call your local radio station to request it, they would tell you that they never got the record from Motown. This happened all over the country at that time. The fans were very frustrated over it and the Supremes were of course.

true - Billboard was not intended to draw interest from kids. it was intended to market to djs, station programmers, record store buyers, etc. Frankly that might be MORE important that marketing to the kids. if the radio played it, it would have been more likely to then generate call-in requests and then kids go buy the record. That's also why the girls did so many stops at key radio stations and at industry conventions. they were superstars and using that to pay favors to the djs and jocks. Do an interview on THEIR show, butter them up. which would hopefully, in turn, get the djs to play their music.

[sup_fan]

That is not true! Berry Gordy has said out of his own mouth that he never broke even on Diana Ross recordings and that he did what he did out of love. He went on to say that recording Diana Ross was very costly. Now what he meant by that......I do not know.

it is true that Berry personally invested his own money into Diana's movies. And i'm sure there there times throughout her career where he personally paid for this to help build up the image and star appeal

but as for the ongoing P/L of the ACT called Diana Ross, who knows what the final breakeven was. she was certainly an expensive act - huge shows, lots of recordings, tours. and she had huge hit records and she had flops. She also added "cache" to the label by being a mega star, for whatever that's worth. This is also why Berry couldn't and wouldn't attempt to match RCA's offer in 81. i'm guessing he knew that the return on that type of investment probably wouldn't pay out. i doubt it would have been a NEGATIVE return but odds are maybe a little over 1:1 or maybe 2:1, which still isn't a great return.

[marv2]

it is true that Berry personally invested his own money into Diana's movies. And i'm sure there there times throughout her career where he personally paid for this to help build up the image and star appeal

but as for the ongoing P/L of the ACT called Diana Ross, who knows what the final breakeven was. she was certainly an expensive act - huge shows, lots of recordings, tours. and she had huge hit records and she had flops. She also added "cache" to the label by being a mega star, for whatever that's worth. This is also why Berry couldn't and wouldn't attempt to match RCA's offer in 81. i'm guessing he knew that the return on that type of investment probably wouldn't pay out. i doubt it would have been a NEGATIVE return but odds are maybe a little over 1:1 or maybe 2:1, which still isn't a great return.

He said that he did not make his money back off of Diana Ross' career which is why he tried to take back everything the company had "loaned" her when she left for RCA! He took the house, the rolls, the furs, the jewelry etc,etc,etc. That is what I am saying. I did not say he did not invest his own money into her movies. It was ALL his own money!

[RanRan79]

SUPREMES
Royal Hawaiian, Falls Church, Va.


“High Energy” is not only the name of the Supremes’ latest Motown album—it also serves to describe the voltage of their present stage show as well.

The group's April 24 set here was significant in that it marked the debut of the newest Supreme, Susay Greene, former member of Stevie Wonder's back-up group Wonderlove.
While Greene's stature is petite, her talent proves to be enormous, and her vocal range very wade. Her lead vocal on “Long And Winding Road/He Ain't Heavy He's My Brother” drew several ovations.
Mary Wilson's supremacy as songstress remains evident with each tune that she caresses.
Her “Don't Let My Teardrops Bother you” from the new LP is a perfect showcase for her distinctive vocal style. Wilson also delivers a standout solo on "Song For You/How Lucky Can You Get?”
The entire act is fresher and tighter than
ever, especially on the bright uptempo sound of “I'm Gonna Let My Heart Do The Walking” which is already on national disco charts. The song allows Scherrie Payne to cut loose with full-throttle wattage on the lead, while Wilson and Greene deliver the driving choral work that the group is famous for.
The concept of the Supremes in their present form is no longer a single lead and two back-ground singers; rather three unique ladies who shine as soloists as well as a team. Previous gold including “Stoned Love,” “Someday We'll Be Together,” “Stop In The Name Of Love” were delivered with alternating leads and updated arrangements that put the set's emphasis on the present strength of the triad, rather than on that of past glory.
Embellishments including many costume changes and clever bits of choreographed material by Geoffrey Holder, who directed Broadway's “The Wiz" help give the show a theatrical flair throughout.

MARK BEGO - Billboard May 8,1976

I was so into this review, especially the compliments to Mary, until I reached the end. Mark Bego is almost as unreliable as Tony Turner. Almost. I wouldn't be surprised if he wasn't even at this particular gig.

[RanRan79]

I'm not a big fan of the last line ups live work....but perhaps they were going for what a lot of people say they should have [[Labelle, Emotions, Pointers)....bring up all 3 voices, looser structure...like Labelle. Nona and Sarah knew how to pull back and as a trio had years of experience singing together....MSS lacked the time and familiarity. I wasn't aware of Labelle's music other than Lady Marmalade... I was however familiar with some of Nona's mid 80's solo work [[I Sweat, Why Should I Cry?) a rock station played The Revolution and Can I Speak to You one night, and I decided to get a best of CD....I like it a lot. The Emotions I never cared for...harmony always seemed too high pitched for me...Pointers? I had Steppin' and loved it...the long Betcha Got A Chick and a great Duke Ellington medley...the Pointers had rock cred for covering Bruce's FIRE, and later had the advantage of massive MTV video exposure....the 70's Supremes were too early to benefit from cleverly staged studio track videos

I imagine that if the MTV age of video had come a decade earlier, there would've been quite a few resurgences of popularity for some artists. Of course this is imagining an MTV of the 70s that embraced Black artists, which we know it took them a couple years to do in the 80s. I envision some entertaining music videos for "Floy Joy", "Bad Weather", and "Let My Heart Do the Walking".

Those groups you cited all had the benefit of singing together for years. Perhaps Flo, Diana and Mary could've had this type of group, but MSS were together only a minute. They couldn't pull it off on stage. Now in the studio, apparently the producers managed them very well. I may not be a fan of all of the songs during this period, but there's no denying that they come across harmoniously and definitely prove that vocally they were as good as the groups you mentioned...in the recording studio.

[marv2]

true - Billboard was not intended to draw interest from kids. it was intended to market to djs, station programmers, record store buyers, etc. Frankly that might be MORE important that marketing to the kids. if the radio played it, it would have been more likely to then generate call-in requests and then kids go buy the record. That's also why the girls did so many stops at key radio stations and at industry conventions. they were superstars and using that to pay favors to the djs and jocks. Do an interview on THEIR show, butter them up. which would hopefully, in turn, get the djs to play their music.

DJ's in most major cities did not play it at time because Motown never issued them the promo DJ/radio station copies. I remember the campaign the Supremes Fan Club had at the time where members around the country were instructed to call into their local stations to request it [[Bad Weather). Everyone that reported back had the same story. The radio stations had never received the record from Motown. The only way we actually heard the song was from the Supremes television appearances. So the DJ's could not help in this situation and the public couldn't go out and buy it even after hearing the song on TV!

[RanRan79]

He said that he did not make his money back off of Diana Ross' career which is why he tried to take back everything the company had "loaned" her when she left for RCA! He took the house, the rolls, the furs, the jewelry etc,etc,etc. That is what I am saying. I did not say he did not invest his own money into her movies. It was ALL his own money!

I'm sure I'm wasting my breath by asking you to source this, so I'll skip that part and go directly to calling bullshit on the claim. Whether you made it up or Gordy actually said it, it's ridiculous. Firstly, I'm not trusting the mouth of the man that screwed so many artists out of their money. He's the last one I'm going to trust to tell me he lost money on any artist, let alone one as huge as Diana Ross. Maybe he lost it gambling, but he didn't lose it on her. [[Maybe he lost some with The Wiz, I'll give him that.) The premise of the "Gordy didn't make any money off of Diana Ross' career" hinges on someone believing that Gordy was basically paying for Diana Ross to parade around the globe and getting nothing in return. If Diana's tours weren't making money, those shows would've never been as big and grand as they were. The money that was put into those shows were recouped and then some. Even Berry Gordy isn't such an idiot businessman that he would put 10,000 dollars into a show only to get back 1,000 dollars and then turn around and do it every year for four or five years. The only reason why those shows were so big and costly is because Gordy knew he'd get back a return on his investment, which he did. Had he not, those shows would've been scaled back to the pre-1976 level. And you better believe that when an artist isn't a true moneymaker, people in the business know it. RCA knew it, that's why they paid the lady all those millions. And when she eventually fell on her face and went back to Motown, Motown knew she wasn't worth what she used to be worth and they paid her that way. Gordy didn't do anything for anybody at Motown unless his bank statement amounts increased.

I swear sometimes the stuff I read around here leads me to believe that folks expect everybody to be idiots. I'm too smart to fall for this nonsense. Gordy didn't make any money off of Diana Ross, my ass.:rolleyes:

[RanRan79]

DJ's in most major cities did not play it at time because Motown never issued them the promo DJ/radio station copies. I remember the campaign the Supremes Fan Club had at the time where members around the country were instructed to call into their local stations to request it [[Bad Weather). Everyone that reported back had the same story. The radio stations had never received the record from Motown. The only way we actually heard the song was from the Supremes television appearances. So the DJ's could not help in this situation and the public couldn't go out and buy it even after hearing the song on TV!

Somebody somewhere was playing it on the radio in order for it to be on the charts for 14 weeks.

[sup_fan]

DJ's in most major cities did not play it at time because Motown never issued them the promo DJ/radio station copies. I remember the campaign the Supremes Fan Club had at the time where members around the country were instructed to call into their local stations to request it [[Bad Weather). Everyone that reported back had the same story. The radio stations had never received the record from Motown. The only way we actually heard the song was from the Supremes television appearances. So the DJ's could not help in this situation and the public couldn't go out and buy it even after hearing the song on TV!

I've heard that too but if you go to oldies record store and collectables, there are always tons of sup promo 45s with the white labels. I don't know that it was an issue that the record wasn't sent out as clearly there are tons of these kicking around today. But rather it was that the act was out of date and out of touch with the programmers are the radio stations. the stations probably rolled their eyes at another silly Sups record and didn't care. or didn't keep it around or whatever.

[sup_fan]

I'm sure I'm wasting my breath by asking you to source this, so I'll skip that part and go directly to calling bullshit on the claim. Whether you made it up or Gordy actually said it, it's ridiculous. Firstly, I'm not trusting the mouth of the man that screwed so many artists out of their money. He's the last one I'm going to trust to tell me he lost money on any artist, let alone one as huge as Diana Ross. Maybe he lost it gambling, but he didn't lose it on her. [[Maybe he lost some with The Wiz, I'll give him that.) The premise of the "Gordy didn't make any money off of Diana Ross' career" hinges on someone believing that Gordy was basically paying for Diana Ross to parade around the globe and getting nothing in return. If Diana's tours weren't making money, those shows would've never been as big and grand as they were. The money that was put into those shows were recouped and then some. Even Berry Gordy isn't such an idiot businessman that he would put 10,000 dollars into a show only to get back 1,000 dollars and then turn around and do it every year for four or five years. The only reason why those shows were so big and costly is because Gordy knew he'd get back a return on his investment, which he did. Had he not, those shows would've been scaled back to the pre-1976 level. And you better believe that when an artist isn't a true moneymaker, people in the business know it. RCA knew it, that's why they paid the lady all those millions. And when she eventually fell on her face and went back to Motown, Motown knew she wasn't worth what she used to be worth and they paid her that way. Gordy didn't do anything for anybody at Motown unless his bank statement amounts increased.

I swear sometimes the stuff I read around here leads me to believe that folks expect everybody to be idiots. I'm too smart to fall for this nonsense. Gordy didn't make any money off of Diana Ross, my ass.:rolleyes:

hahahha - love ya Ran buddy!

and given that the intimate, personal relationship between Ross and Gordy was pretty much over by end of 1970, after that she was pretty much another employee

I'd assume that, like any business, they'd continue with a strategy [[such as mega shows) until that started to wane. her 1980 show is a radical departure. maybe after the hugeness of the Boss tour [[and maybe it not making huge money), they decided a new approach was necessary

[reese]

hahahha - love ya Ran buddy!

and given that the intimate, personal relationship between Ross and Gordy was pretty much over by end of 1970, after that she was pretty much another employee

I'd assume that, like any business, they'd continue with a strategy [[such as mega shows) until that started to wane. her 1980 show is a radical departure. maybe after the hugeness of the Boss tour [[and maybe it not making huge money), they decided a new approach was necessary

In CALL HER MISS ROSS, J. Randy wrote that Diana was originally under the impression that Motown was helping with the costs of TOUR '79 but they were not. This was at the time that she had formed her own company, DIANA ROSS ENTERPRISES, and Berry basically decided if she wanted to be the boss, let her be the boss.

After that tour, Diana began touring in-the-round with a smaller band and singers. In the US, she brought back dancers for the 1995 and 1996 TAKE ME HIGHER tour. But she didn't really do another big-budget spectacle again, although her initial MORE TODAY THAN YESTERDAY: GREATEST HITS TOUR was a welcome change.

[sup_fan]

yeah i've never really figured out what all DR Enterprises was handling. the day to day management? photo shoots? promotion and marketing? she wasn't Exec Producing her lps. Gordy was EP on Boss. how was EP on diana 80 and To Love Again?

if she was really doing this, then i would have thought there would have been some sort of re-negotiation of her agreement. her motown contract and royalty structure would have been accounting for motown doing this and taking this cost up front. But if she was doing it, was motown then reimbursing her?? And i think she only had a small staff at these offices. maybe just the PR work?

[RanRan79]

hahahha - love ya Ran buddy!

and given that the intimate, personal relationship between Ross and Gordy was pretty much over by end of 1970, after that she was pretty much another employee

I'd assume that, like any business, they'd continue with a strategy [[such as mega shows) until that started to wane. her 1980 show is a radical departure. maybe after the hugeness of the Boss tour [[and maybe it not making huge money), they decided a new approach was necessary

Right back at cha, Sup!!:cool:

I don't think even Gordy would've ever looked at Diana at that point in the game as just another employee. I think she would have always been able to get his support and wrap him around her finger...as long as she was willing to play his game. Remember Florence saying how Gordy always said he wanted to control her [[her, being Flo) and when he couldn't, he didn't want her around. I didn't think about how accurate that statement may have been until this moment. Seems like as soon as Diana really stepped into independence and doing what she wanted, Gordy started giving her the finger. He wanted to control her, and when he couldn't, he no longer wanted her around. [[Which does bring up the question of how Flo's life- certainly her life at Motown- may have been different had she been willing to jump for Gordy no matter what, instead of doing what she wanted.)

Now, this isn't me saying he wanted Diana to leave Motown. She was still a money maker and Gordy didn't want to let go of any money makers unless he had no other choice. But I think the damage had been done to that relationship. It was then that he would've treated her as he would anyone else at the label.

[RanRan79]

In CALL HER MISS ROSS, J. Randy wrote that Diana was originally under the impression that Motown was helping with the costs of TOUR '79 but they were not. This was at the time that she had formed her own company, DIANA ROSS ENTERPRISES, and Berry basically decided if she wanted to be the boss, let her be the boss.

After that tour, Diana began touring in-the-round with a smaller band and singers. In the US, she brought back dancers for the 1995 and 1996 TAKE ME HIGHER tour. But she didn't really do another big-budget spectacle again, although her initial MORE TODAY THAN YESTERDAY: GREATEST HITS TOUR was a welcome change.

That makes a lot of sense regarding the change. Although I think the stage show would've had to change anyway. It worked well for the time. What Diana did with the stadiums and the round stages was right in line with the mega acts of the 80s.

[sup_fan]

you're def right Ran

to say it another way, Gordy was ALWAYS impressed and dedicated to Diana primarily because he saw immense talent but also immense drive. he even says during the motown 40 [[i think) special that she was willing to make whatever sacrifices necessary in order to make it. that's something unique and special to her

this isn't to put F or M down. it's not that they were lazy or lacking. they were typical teenagers. I know when i was 19, i was stupid lolol. yes you work hard at things but you also are young and want to have fun. M and F are completely normal for doing that. D is the oddball lol. she had a drive atypical of a teenager. Gordy saw that, recognized her unique singing voice, saw her impressive stage presence and realized this was the one.

their love affair, IMO, was always secondary to that. both of them were always 110% focused on success. the affair started well after the focus on the Sups began and ended well before the focus on diana ended.

[sup_fan]

Gordy also realized that Diana was stubborn and didn't always want/know what was best. i think he realized that she was an amazing entertainer but not necessarily an amazing entertainment manager. just like him - an amazing manager but probably can't sing a single note! lol possessing talent in one most certainly does NOT guarantee talent with the other.

[reese]

yeah i've never really figured out what all DR Enterprises was handling. the day to day management? photo shoots? promotion and marketing? she wasn't Exec Producing her lps. Gordy was EP on Boss. how was EP on diana 80 and To Love Again?

if she was really doing this, then i would have thought there would have been some sort of re-negotiation of her agreement. her motown contract and royalty structure would have been accounting for motown doing this and taking this cost up front. But if she was doing it, was motown then reimbursing her?? And i think she only had a small staff at these offices. maybe just the PR work?

Not sure. I gather DRE probably handled her bookings and tour arrangements and whatever else was associated with that. DRE also produced her 1979 and 1981 tv specials.

Re albums, I think Berry stopped being EP after ROSS. I don't have them in front of me but I don't think THE BOSS and DIANA had EP credits at all. TO LOVE AGAIN was EP by Suzanne dePasse, I believe, and was Diana's first album to include fan club info. Maybe DRE was going to help with that venture as well.

[reese]

That makes a lot of sense regarding the change. Although I think the stage show would've had to change anyway. It worked well for the time. What Diana did with the stadiums and the round stages was right in line with the mega acts of the 80s.

I would agree. After THE BOSS, Diana's image became younger, sexier, and less-Vegas like. Her in-the-round shows reflected the "new" Diana. I enjoyed those in-the-round shows of the 80s just as much as I did AN EVENING WITH... and TOUR '79.

[reese]

Gordy also realized that Diana was stubborn and didn't always want/know what was best. i think he realized that she was an amazing entertainer but not necessarily an amazing entertainment manager. just like him - an amazing manager but probably can't sing a single note! lol possessing talent in one most certainly does NOT guarantee talent with the other.

Diana once said that Berry was the thinker, and she was the do'er.

[marv2]

I've heard that too but if you go to oldies record store and collectables, there are always tons of sup promo 45s with the white labels. I don't know that it was an issue that the record wasn't sent out as clearly there are tons of these kicking around today. But rather it was that the act was out of date and out of touch with the programmers are the radio stations. the stations probably rolled their eyes at another silly Sups record and didn't care. or didn't keep it around or whatever.

Well 47 years ago when "Bad Weather" came out, you could not find it, yet you could get a free copy of the "Diana Ross & the Supremes Farewell" album with the purchase of a bucket of Kentucky Fried Chicken in the summer of 1973. Remember that stupid promotion?

The stations not receiving the record was the issue. I just told you that and I don't have to lie about something this trivial now some 47 years later. The calls the fans made to all those radio stations were what we call in Marketing today "test calls" and the results came back negative! They didn't have the record. I remember calling my station at the time, WKLR 3 times over a month and nope! No, "Bad Weather". So, it wasn't the Supremes, it was Motown's lack of work on their behalf. Just like years earlier when a request came in from folks wanting Florence Ballard to audition for certain acting roles.

[marv2]

Diana once said that Berry was the thinker, and she was the do'er.

LOL!!!! hehehehehehehehehe,......I can't, LOL!!!!

[sup_fan]

I would agree. After THE BOSS, Diana's image became younger, sexier, and less-Vegas like. Her in-the-round shows reflected the "new" Diana. I enjoyed those in-the-round shows of the 80s just as much as I did AN EVENING WITH... and TOUR '79.

i agree - i think her updated stage format worked beautifully for the 80s. her image and sound from 80 - 82 was, for the most part, spot on. fresh, hip, dynamic.

I remember finding an old yearbook at college from those years and she was voted top female artist by the campus. and i remember hearing her stuff everywhere during those years.