Mary says that she & flo were on the supremes' christmas album

[milven]

“I absolutely love ‘My Favorite Things’ from our Christmas album. It’s so great that the song remains a holiday favorite after all these years – and how much fun it is to now have an animated video,” said Mary Wilson, founding member of The Supremes. “Flo, Diane and I were so happy to sing all of these wonderful holiday songs and we had so much fun shooting the album cover up in the mountains.”

Three of Motown’s biggest Christmas classics – The Jackson 5’s “I Saw Mommy Kissing Santa Claus,” The Supremes’ “My Favorite Things” and The Temptations’ “Silent Night” have been brought to life with a series of official animated videos illustrating the magic of the holiday season.

https://radiofacts.com/christmas-classics-from-the-jackson-5-the-supremes-and-the-temptations-get-animated-in-first-ever-official-videos/


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D2brNtAfsng

[milven]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IK8BkuvI39E

[marv2]

I wished they had included a couple of Mary and Florence's leads on that album when it was originally released. I especially like Florence singing "O' Holy Night".

[floyjoy678]

I wouldn't be surprised if they're mixed in there somewhere on some of those songs.

[mysterysinger]

This would be a fab thread in the DRATS Forum.

[Circa 1824]

It is amazing how much work and responsibility Diana had on this performance, and how little the other 2 had. The other 2 only just glided around the stage.

[PeaceNHarmony]

This would be a fab thread in the DRATS Forum.Well, it has been, about 2,647 times :rolleyes: ... I lost precise count. Have a wonderful, Mysterious Thanksgiving!

[milven]

This would be a fab thread in the DRATS Forum.

Perhaps. Matter of opinion. Ralph can move it if he wants. But the link I provided in my post is an article about all the new Motown videos including J5 and Tempts and other UMG Christmas standards that are now part of the UMG group like Sinatra, Bobby Hellms and Brenda Lee.

https://radiofacts.com/christmas-cla...ficial-videos/

[marv2]

I can add another thread on this in the DRATS forum.

[marybrewster]

Mary has also said she and Diana recorded "Someday We'll Be Together" in 1970. So.....

[marv2]

Mary has also said she and Diana recorded "Someday We'll Be Together" in 1970. So.....

They did. Here it is. I have the album:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OEYVvw5au28

[thanxal]

Well, it has been, about 2,647 times :rolleyes: ... I lost precise count. Have a wonderful, Mysterious Thanksgiving!
I think 2,648 is the magic number to convince the other side.

[marv2]

I think 2,648 is the magic number to convince the other side.

Convincing folks that claim to be "Supremes fans". but hate the fact that The Supremes are on their own records is crazy and a waste of time to begin with. I've always known they were on the "Merry Christmas" album. I'll take the word of someone that was actually there at the time over anyone else!

[thanxal]

Convincing folks that claim to be "Supremes fans". but hate the fact that The Supremes are on their own records is crazy and a waste of time to begin with. I've always known they were on the "Merry Christmas" album. I'll take the word of someone that was actually there at the time over anyone else!
The liner notes to the 2017 CD reissue state that Diana worked through her vacation to do the lead solos and "the other girls" came in later to add their backgrounds and then the Andantes were added to the mix. The liner notes were written by Joe Marchese and the recordings produced by Andy and George. Had this not been true, I imagine Andy and George would have intervened to correct the record. Mary was dubbed into a "duet" on the Christmas Song, which is my singular favorite Mary vocal of them all, so clearly sang for the sessions. Not sure why this is still a debate.

[TomatoTom123]

The liner notes to the 2017 CD reissue state that Diana worked through her vacation to do the lead solos and "the other girls" came in later to add their backgrounds and then the Andantes were added to the mix. The liner notes were written by Joe Marchese and the recordings produced by Andy and George. Had this not been true, I imagine Andy and George would have intervened to correct the record. Mary was dubbed into a "duet" on the Christmas Song, which is my singular favorite Mary vocal of them all, so clearly sang for the sessions. Not sure why this is still a debate.

thanxal, please refrain from making reasoned, rational, and evidence-based posts within the forum, it's highly disrespectful to our ethos.
Thank you.

:p

[marv2]

The liner notes to the 2017 CD reissue state that Diana worked through her vacation to do the lead solos and "the other girls" came in later to add their backgrounds and then the Andantes were added to the mix. The liner notes were written by Joe Marchese and the recordings produced by Andy and George. Had this not been true, I imagine Andy and George would have intervened to correct the record. Mary was dubbed into a "duet" on the Christmas Song, which is my singular favorite Mary vocal of them all, so clearly sang for the sessions. Not sure why this is still a debate.

It has not been up to debate with me either since Christmas 1965. Even as a Kindergartener, I never questioned who was singing on Supremes records! LOL!!!

[thanxal]

thanxal, please refrain from making reasoned, rational, and evidence-based posts within the forum, it's highly disrespectful to our ethos.
Thank you.

:p
Oh jeez, here we go again. How many Hail Mary Wilsons in penance must I say?

[jobeterob]

And if anyone really thinks Mary deserves a kick in the pants, you can say “and who the hell even cares when you can‘t pick any particular singer in the background - they could have the Chipmunks on there

[marv2]

And if anyone really thinks Mary deserves a kick in the pants, you can say “and who the hell even cares when you can‘t pick any particular singer in the background - they could have the Chipmunks on there

Go home.......you're drunk!

[jobeterob]

At least I’m not a mean drunk!

And you are many things but most of all mean!

Should we ask the guys? And Roberta?

[mysterysinger]

Umm yes, this is definitely one for the DRATS Forum.

[TheMotownManiac]

Mary has also said she and Diana recorded "Someday We'll Be Together" in 1970. So.....

Mary also said she coined the phrase “no-hit Supremes”. Mary says a lot of things - many of which are not accurate.

[Boogiedown]

hmmmm
Actually Mary doesn't say that the three of them enjoyed recording the album [[or specifically that the three of them are on it),
she says the three of them enjoyed posing for the cover and enjoyed singing these songs, which might refer to their live performances of them.

[Roberta75]

Convincing folks that claim to be "Supremes fans". but hate the fact that The Supremes are on their own records is crazy and a waste of time to begin with. I've always known they were on the "Merry Christmas" album. I'll take the word of someone that was actually there at the time over anyone else!


Convincing folks that claim to be "Supremes fans". but hate the fact that Diana Ross was the only member to go on to be a global superstar is crazy and a waste of time to begin with. Ive always known that fact but them im not bitter and ive not been kicked out of one of her concerts.

[Roberta75]

Go home.......you're drunk!

Its real sad that you spent your Thanksgiving insulting people on a Motown forum. Download a dating app. Nah.....scratch that your better on your own. No man or woman deserves to be stuck with the likes of you.

[khansperac]

I seem to recall that a certain segment of Supremes fans here hated this album. Now they like it? When did things change?

[marv2]

hmmmm
Actually Mary doesn't say that the three of them enjoyed recording the album [[or specifically that the three of them are on it),
she says the three of them enjoyed posing for the cover and enjoyed singing these songs, which might refer to their live performances of them.

Courtesy of Thanxal directly above:

The liner notes to the 2017 CD reissue state that Diana worked through her vacation to do the lead solos and "the other girls" came in later to add their backgrounds and then the Andantes were added to the mix. The liner notes were written by Joe Marchese and the recordings produced by Andy and George.

[marv2]

I seem to recall that a certain segment of Supremes fans here hated this album. Now they like it? When did things change?

I am seem to recall a certain segment of "Diana Ross fans that hate everyone but her" loving it! Will they now burn and break their copies of "Merry Christmas The Supremes" from 1965?

[thanxal]

hmmmm
Actually Mary doesn't say that the three of them enjoyed recording the album [[or specifically that the three of them are on it),
she says the three of them enjoyed posing for the cover and enjoyed singing these songs, which might refer to their live performances of them.
Sorry, the liner notes clearly indicate Mary and Flo are on it, with additional backgrounds by the Andantes. So no one is completely correct [[that its the Supremes with no Andantes or only Diana and the Andantes). Unless Andy or George says otherwise, "Merry Christmas" is Diana Ross, Mary Wilson, and Florence Ballard with additional background by the Andantes.

[thanxal]

I am seem to recall a certain segment of "Diana Ross fans that hate everyone but her" loving it! Will they now burn and break their copies of "Merry Christmas The Supremes" from 1965?
Yeah Marv, but given your professed hatred of Diana Ross, you really have no standing to ask such a question.

[marv2]

Yeah Marv, but given your professed hatred of Diana Ross, you really have no standing to ask such a question.

I can't stand Diana Ross! But I never lie on her.......

[vgalindo]

Courtesy of Thanxal directly above:

The liner notes to the 2017 CD reissue state that Diana worked through her vacation to do the lead solos and "the other girls" came in later to add their backgrounds and then the Andantes were added to the mix. The liner notes were written by Joe Marchese and the recordings produced by Andy and George.
You are such a hypocrite. Now you believe these liner notes! Lol. How convenient. But you refuse to believe the liner notes to the 50th singles collection that states the released version of Stop in the name of love is the Andantes! Lol.

[thanxal]

You are such a hypocrite. Now you believe these liner notes! Lol. How convenient. But you refuse to believe the liner notes to the 50th singles collection that states the released version of Stop in the name of love is the Andantes! Lol.
It says "with the Andantes". It does not state clearly whether or not Mary and Florence are on Stop!. In the "More Hits By the Supremes" EE liner notes, George wrote "The Classic Grammy-nominated version of 'Stop! in the Name of Love' was actually a re-recording that changed some lyrics, took away the handclaps, and added the Andantes. Again, unless clarified by Andy or George, "Stop!" is Diana, Mary, and Florence with The Andantes. Of course, history can change itself and I was none too happy to learn Motown sweetened the backgrounds, but that's what it is. I don't have direct access to the vaults to read/listen myself, but I implicitly trust Andy and George on these things since fans, well...

[vgalindo]

It says "with the Andantes". It does not state clearly whether or not Mary and Florence are on Stop!. In the "More Hits By the Supremes" EE liner notes, George wrote "The Classic Grammy-nominated version of 'Stop! in the Name of Love' was actually a re-recording that changed some lyrics, took away the handclaps, and added the Andantes. Again, unless clarified by Andy or George, "Stop!" is Diana, Mary, and Florence with The Andantes. Of course, history can change itself and I was none too happy to learn Motown sweetened the backgrounds, but that's what it is. I don't have direct access to the vaults to read/listen myself, but I implicitly trust Andy and George on these things since fans, well...
I am not talking about the liner notes to “More Hits”. I am talking about the liner notes in the 50th singles collection. I am sorry but I also heard Andy say it himself on Nightflight. That the single released 45 version was the Andantes! It’s even has been said by Andy in the archives of this forum. And like you I trust what I heard and read from Andy.

[vgalindo]

I am not talking about the liner notes to “More Hits”. I am talking about the liner notes in the 50th singles collection. I am sorry but I also heard Andy say it himself on Nightflight. That the single released 45 version was the Andantes! It’s even has been said by Andy in the archives of this forum. And like you I trust what I heard and read from Andy.
I also remember them sayin that Florence and Mary were on all the other versions of Stop in the name of love. Just not on the single 45 release.

[marv2]

George Solomon
George Solomon is offline Senior Member

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"I'm going to jump in for a minute. [[And hope I don't regret it) The fact is Mary and Flo sang the first version of "Stop" with no augmentation. The second [[released) version features Mary, Florence and the Andantes. Some parts they're all singing together. Some parts it's just Mary and Flo and some parts it's just Andantes. If you listen carefully you can break it down."

We have to do this at least every two months for the benefit of those Supremes fans that cannot stand the fact that they Supremes are on their own recordings......Trying hard to prove that the Supremes did not sing their own songs on their own records. Amazing!

[vgalindo]

George Solomon
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"I'm going to jump in for a minute. [[And hope I don't regret it) The fact is Mary and Flo sang the first version of "Stop" with no augmentation. The second [[released) version features Mary, Florence and the Andantes. Some parts they're all singing together. Some parts it's just Mary and Flo and some parts it's just Andantes. If you listen carefully you can break it down."

We have to do this at least every two months for the benefit of those Supremes fans that cannot stand the fact that they Supremes are on their own recordings......Trying hard to prove that the Supremes did not sing their own songs on their own records. Amazing!
I’ve seen this Marv. Maybe this is true but it still doesn’t change the fact of what was said by Andy on Nightflight!

[thanxal]

I’ve seen this Marv. Maybe this is true but it still doesn’t change the fact of what was said by Andy on Nightflight!
I recorded that somewhere and will dig and listen. I recall [[vaguely) that Andy insinuated that "some fans" wouldn't like that he was going to say, which is that it was Diana, Mary and Florence with the Andantes, not the Andantes replacing Mary and Flo.
Edit: I don't know "which fans" he insinuated wouldn't like what.

[thanxal]

George Solomon
George Solomon is offline Senior Member

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"I'm going to jump in for a minute. [[And hope I don't regret it) The fact is Mary and Flo sang the first version of "Stop" with no augmentation. The second [[released) version features Mary, Florence and the Andantes. Some parts they're all singing together. Some parts it's just Mary and Flo and some parts it's just Andantes. If you listen carefully you can break it down."

We have to do this at least every two months for the benefit of those Supremes fans that cannot stand the fact that they Supremes are on their own recordings......Trying hard to prove that the Supremes did not sing their own songs on their own records. Amazing!
Yeah, but you denied that the Andantes were on background on various threads, so what's your point?

[marv2]

Yeah, but you denied that the Andantes were on background on various threads, so what's your point?

I may have been wrong about that. I know that they were NOT on the majority of the Supremes number one hits. The point is, somebody needs to explain to me why is it that a few of the guys that regularly post in this sub-forum are desperate to believe that The Supremes were replaced on their records by the Andantes. If no one can do that, it will not change a thing anyway because I know better!

[vgalindo]

I recorded that somewhere and will dig and listen. I recall [[vaguely) that Andy insinuated that "some fans" wouldn't like that he was going to say, which is that it was Diana, Mary and Florence with the Andantes, not the Andantes replacing Mary and Flo.
Edit: I don't know "which fans" he insinuated wouldn't like what.
Thank you Thanxal. I would love to hear it again. Maybe I didn’t hear it right. It makes no difference to me. Because I love the song with whoever is doing the backgrounds. I just could have sworn that what I heard was that the released 45 were the Andantes. And that Mary and Flo were on all the other versions. Maybe I’m wrong. I’m just going by memory and also remember Andy giving examples on this forum of what Mary and Flo sounded like compared to the Andantes. And that he stated the released 45 version was the Andantes.

[thanxal]

I may have been wrong about that. I know that they were NOT on the majority of the Supremes number one hits. The point is, somebody needs to explain to me why is it that a few of the guys that regularly post in this sub-forum are desperate to believe that The Supremes were replaced on their records by the Andantes. If no one can do that, it will not change a thing anyway because I know better!
Marv, it is very generous [[and honest) of you to admit you may have been wrong on that. I mean that in all sincerity and with no snark. I have been wrong in the past based on bad information. It is quite possible that the fights around here get people into such bad camps that they don't want to admit this or that. In the end, I really couldn't give a flying F**K about the bitchy-ness on this forum. I want to hear the music. it is true that I don't like that I was lied to about who was on certain records, I don't always approve of the behavior of my favorite artists, but in the end they gave me music I love. This place should be a repository of information on Motown, the Tempts, Four Tops, Vandellas, Supremes, Diana Ross, Jean Terrell, etc. and not a prime exhibit on bad fan behavior.

[thanxal]

Thank you Thanxal. I would love to hear it again. Maybe I didn’t hear it right. It makes no difference to me. Because I love the song with whoever is doing the backgrounds. I just could have sworn that what I heard was that the released 45 were the Andantes. And that Mary and Flo were on all the other versions. Maybe I’m wrong. I’m just going by memory and also remember Andy giving examples on this forum of what Mary and Flo sounded like compared to the Andantes. And that he stated the released 45 version was the Andantes.
I can't remember 100% and it is quite possible you are correct. There have been 2,467 threads on this so I can't remember who said what and when. I will go to my sound archives and see if Andy's interview is there. I remember recording it that night, since I knew he would say interesting stuff.

[midnightman]

Thank you Thanxal. I would love to hear it again. Maybe I didn’t hear it right. It makes no difference to me. Because I love the song with whoever is doing the backgrounds. I just could have sworn that what I heard was that the released 45 were the Andantes. And that Mary and Flo were on all the other versions. Maybe I’m wrong. I’m just going by memory and also remember Andy giving examples on this forum of what Mary and Flo sounded like compared to the Andantes. And that he stated the released 45 version was the Andantes.

Mary and Flo are on the 45 version lol

The Andantes add background harmonies. Those "ahhhhs" that appear when Diana hits the bridge before the "think it overs" come in are the Andantes. THAT'S what they contributed. It's still Diana, Mary & Florence. The Andantes are just a vocal FOOTNOTE on "Stop!".

[vgalindo]

Mary and Flo are on the 45 version lol

The Andantes add background harmonies. Those "ahhhhs" that appear when Diana hits the bridge before the "think it overs" come in are the Andantes. THAT'S what they contributed. It's still Diana, Mary & Florence. The Andantes are just a vocal FOOTNOTE on "Stop!".
I’m not denying it. I’m just stating what was said. I don’t personally have a copy of the 45 released version. But I do have the singles collection and will listen to it when I have a chance and compare. Thank you.

[Roberta75]

I can't stand Diana Ross! But I never lie on her.......

Best joke of the year. LMAO Hehehehehehehehehehehehehehehe.

[Boogiedown]

Sorry, the liner notes clearly indicate Mary and Flo are on it, with additional backgrounds by the Andantes. So no one is completely correct [[that its the Supremes with no Andantes or only Diana and the Andantes). Unless Andy or George says otherwise, "Merry Christmas" is Diana Ross, Mary Wilson, and Florence Ballard with additional background by the Andantes.

to be clear, I'm not saying Flo and Mary are not on the album . From listening to a couple of cuts on youtube, I am of the opinion that what I hear is the two of them [[and not the Andantes lol!).

What I am saying is that Mary's comments could be cleverly couched to induce a false conclusion. She doe not say, "That's me and Flo singing on the Christmas album," as the title to this thread suggests.


Has Mary ever addressed this directly?

[thanxal]

to be clear, I'm not saying Flo and Mary are not on the album . From listening to a couple of cuts on youtube, I am of the opinion that what I hear is the two of them [[and not the Andantes lol!).

What I am saying is that Mary's comments could be cleverly couched to induce a false conclusion. She doe not say, "That's me and Flo singing on the Christmas album," as the title to this thread suggests.


Has Mary ever addressed this directly?
I personally trust Andy and George, so I do see your point. Speaking only for myself, I love the album, controversies aside. It plays in rotation with Bing, Ella, Brenda, Burl, Andy, Mitch, Frank, Dean and others I can't think of at the moment. It is part of the holiday mood, regardless of arguments here.

[jobeterob]

Oh what fun it is to play "Is Mary on that song, hey!" Jingle bells, jingle bells

[marv2]

Mary and Flo are on the 45 version lol

The Andantes add background harmonies. Those "ahhhhs" that appear when Diana hits the bridge before the "think it overs" come in are the Andantes. THAT'S what they contributed. It's still Diana, Mary & Florence. The Andantes are just a vocal FOOTNOTE on "Stop!".

The Andantes were used only for "augmentation". Augmentation means -the action or process of making or becoming greater in size or amount.

The producers decided that they wanted more voices on the recorded to create a bigger sound.

[marv2]

to be clear, I'm not saying Flo and Mary are not on the album . From listening to a couple of cuts on youtube, I am of the opinion that what I hear is the two of them [[and not the Andantes lol!).

What I am saying is that Mary's comments could be cleverly couched to induce a false conclusion. She doe not say, "That's me and Flo singing on the Christmas album," as the title to this thread suggests.


Has Mary ever addressed this directly?

Mary Wilson was the first one to my knowledge to acknowledge that she, nor Cindy Birdsong were not on "Love Child" or "Someday, We'll Be Together". She went on to explain why. She is also the first person I had ever heard mention "The Andantes". I had never heard of them before reading "Dreamgirl, My Life As A Supreme" in 1986. I didn't even know how to pronounce their name!

What sense would it make for Mary to talk about not being on two of the Supremes biggest hits, but take her proper credit for being on the album "Merry Christmas" which is basically a novelty album! She doesn't have to try to be clever, all she need do is what she has always done and that is tell the truth!

[thanxal]

The Andantes were used only for "augmentation". Augmentation means -the action or process of making or becoming greater in size or amount.

The producers decided that they wanted more voices on the recorded to create a bigger sound.
No, Marv. Had they only been "augmentation" Motown would have released version 1 of Stop! and not version 2. The same could be said of the dozens of other releases [[esp. Four Tops). The Andantes helped make the Motown Sound. Let's not diminish their stellar efforts as contributors to the Motown Sound. They weren't just "augmentation". They were authentic and central parts of the overall sound. Why else would Motown, a money-making effort, put them on so many releases?

As for Mary's acknowledgement of the Andantes, her book was also the first place I learned of their contribution, so kudos to her.

[marv2]

No, Marv. Had they only been "augmentation" Motown would have released version 1 of Stop! and not version 2. The same could be said of the dozens of other releases [[esp. Four Tops). The Andantes helped make the Motown Sound. Let's not diminish their stellar efforts as contributors to the Motown Sound. They weren't just "augmentation". They were authentic and central parts of the overall sound. Why else would Motown, a money-making effort, put them on so many releases?

As for Mary's acknowledgement of the Andantes, her book was also the first place I learned of their contribution, so kudos to her.

See I knew you were going say that. I wasn't talking about their work on a few early Four Tops recordings where they sang part or all of the background. I am speaking strictly of "Stop In the Name of Love". They do not dominate the background harmonies on it in any way! I did not diminishing their contributions, I am also not going to sit here and exaggerate their works either! They had a part in it, but for me and many others it was the Funk Brothers that gave Motown it's unique sound. Some can tell when a single or album for Motown was cut outside of Detroit just by how the musicians sound. Granted the Andantes did a good job, but they could have found sessions singers in any medium to large church in Detroit on any given Sunday! It's still true today.

Look at the excellent singers that backed Aretha Franklin over the years. Every one of them came out of the church in Detroit [[until she moved out to LA).

[PeaceNHarmony]

Well, I guess what's she supposed to say? 'Nah - there's lots of Supremes records I don't sing on'? Anywhogivesamistletoe, I love the LP and it would be great if it were ultimately proven that all 3 sang on every song on the LP. But that don't seem to be the case. It sure ain't Mary and Flo who we prominently hear on My Favorite Things and Joy to the World.

[thanxal]

See I knew you were going say that.
Lol. Tell me tomorrow's lotto numbers.

Maybe, but if Motown had the ability to find any session singers in any Sunday church they would have. But they didn't. They stuck with the Andantes for hundreds of singles. Not just to Tops or Supremes, but many others.

But I do agree that the Funks had more to do with "the sound" than anyone else, other than HDH perhaps. Funks with anyone other than HDH just don't have the same magic.

[thanxal]

Well, I guess what's she supposed to say? 'Nah - there's lots of Supremes records I don't sing on'? Anywhogivesamistletoe, I love the LP and it would be great if it were ultimately proven that all 3 sang on every song on the LP. But that don't seem to be the case. It sure ain't Mary and Flo who we prominently hear on My Favorite Things and Joy to the World.
Funny how no one disputes who the foreground singer is.

[floyjoy678]

I'm not even going to debate "Stop!". Its been settled months ago.

Most of the Xmas album sounds like the Andantes but there songs like "Born of Mary" and "Santa Claus Is Coming To Town" where it sounds like more than 3 voices. I wonder if Mary and Flo are on those tracks.

[thanxal]

I'm not even going to debate "Stop!". Its been settled months ago.

Most of the Xmas album sounds like the Andantes but there songs like "Born of Mary" and "Santa Claus Is Coming To Town" where it sounds like more than 3 voices. I wonder if Mary and Flo are on those tracks.
Read the liner notes.

[marv2]

Lol. Tell me tomorrow's lotto numbers.

Maybe, but if Motown had the ability to find any session singers in any Sunday church they would have. But they didn't. They stuck with the Andantes for hundreds of singles. Not just to Tops or Supremes, but many others.

But I do agree that the Funks had more to do with "the sound" than anyone else, other than HDH perhaps. Funks with anyone other than HDH just don't have the same magic.

Look, if Motown really valued the Andantes that much, they would have paid them better. They got something like $10-12.00 per session! It was the Andantes that knew they had hooked up on a good thing in their minds. Had any one of them left, nothing would have stopped at Motown.

[marv2]

I'm not even going to debate "Stop!". Its been settled months ago.

Most of the Xmas album sounds like the Andantes but there songs like "Born of Mary" and "Santa Claus Is Coming To Town" where it sounds like more than 3 voices. I wonder if Mary and Flo are on those tracks.

I'm curious, how do you even know what the Andantes or Andante sounds like? I know Mary, Florence and Diane's voices. They are unique.

[floyjoy678]

I can't tell their voices apart individually but together I'd describe it as a generic, heavy sound. And the genericness worked for a lot of songs but nothing is as good as Mary, Diana and Flo's sound together.

[marv2]

I can't tell their voices apart individually but together I'd describe it as a generic, heavy sound. And the genericness worked for a lot of songs but nothing is as good as Mary, Diana and Flo's sound together.

Cool. I can understand that. I also can't tell you what the Andantes sound like, but I know when Mary, Flo, Cindy, etc are not on a recording. I know their voices very well.

[Boogiedown]

Mary Wilson was the first one to my knowledge to acknowledge that she, nor Cindy Birdsong were not on "Love Child" or "Someday, We'll Be Together". She went on to explain why. She is also the first person I had ever heard mention "The Andantes". I had never heard of them before reading "Dreamgirl, My Life As A Supreme" in 1986. I didn't even know how to pronounce their name!
But wait a minute Marv, i thought you were a lifelong dedicated Supremes fan . You mean to tell me that a hardcore Supremes follower such as yourself, when eagerly listening to each new record by them , never once paused and thought , "wait a minute , I'm hearing more than The Supremes on here" ......
What sense would it make for Mary to talk about not being on two of the Supremes biggest hits, but take her proper credit for being on the album "Merry Christmas" which is basically a novelty album! She doesn't have to try to be clever, all she need do is what she has always done and that is tell the truth!
Hee hee, your protest makes me think maybe i'm on to something . Mary seems to be aware that there is a new video of their old Christmas tune and to be a part of the limelight seems to me to be trying too hard in her wording to "imply" that its all three of them on the record , such that while telling some truth , not necessarily telling the WHOLE truth.

By the way , why is there even the doubt that Mary and Flo are or aren't on the Xmas LP? How did that rumor get started ...by whom ??

[detmotownguy]

Look, if Motown really valued the Andantes that much, they would have paid them better. They got something like $10-12.00 per session! It was the Andantes that knew they had hooked up on a good thing in their minds. Had any one of them left, nothing would have stopped at Motown.
Hey Marv! Assuming 2- 4 hour sessions per day @ $12 flat rate per session adjusted for inflation equates to approx. $24.00 hr in 2019. Full time almost $ 50,000
Annually in $2019 with no benefits though!!

[midnightman]

"Motown didn't value the Andantes."

The same could be said for virtually every other act signed on there including, yes, all three original Supremes.

Funny that happens, huh?

[TheMotownManiac]

Mary Wilson was the first one to my knowledge to acknowledge that she, nor Cindy Birdsong were not on "Love Child" or "Someday, We'll Be Together". She went on to explain why. She is also the first person I had ever heard mention "The Andantes". I had never heard of them before reading "Dreamgirl, My Life As A Supreme" in 1986. I didn't even know how to pronounce their name!

What sense would it make for Mary to talk about not being on two of the Supremes biggest hits, but take her proper credit for being on the album "Merry Christmas" which is basically a novelty album! She doesn't have to try to be clever, all she need do is what she has always done and that is tell the truth!

‘Mary does not always tell the truth - she’s an admitted liar in Dreamgirl, accused of duplicity by Flo in several situations and has told whoppers to very recently claiming she coined No-hit Supremes”. I can list sone of her untruths if you wish.

Mary could have told the truth about The Andantes but instead chose to work it into her memoire as another ”poor me” situation after Flo left and not that The A’s had been augmenting or totally replacing them since 1963. THAT would have been telling the truth. What Mary did was write a book using some facts and some falsehoods and some in-between realities.

personally, I don’t believe Mary and Flower are on the Christmas album, I can hear Marlene barrow all over the place…… And, I think Mary and Flos would’ve sounded better especially on white Christmas and well quite a few others. You are so completely not objective about this topic that everyone can predict what you’re going to say before you even say it. George and Andy stated plainly that mary and flow are not on stop the name of love single, you choose not to believe that because Levine Dempsey said she recorded with Mary and flo on that song…… Ignoring the fact that the take that she did with Mary and Florence was not used for the 45… That that you just look for anything to support your agenda and go with it. Other times, when it suits your agenda, you quote Andy and George like they are the holy Gospel. Whenever Smokey Robinson said something positive about Mary you repeat it ad nauseam, but when he wrote in his book that “The story of the Supremes would’ve been the same with Diane and any two girls” you dismissed it as Berry Gordy’s henchmen furthering the company line.

[jobeterob]

Yes he's full of doggy do! Well spelled out again

[Circa 1824]

Mary promised in her first book to give part of the profits to flo’s children. She gave nothing because I personally asked her during a radio call-in show. She said she changed her mind. LOL

gotta love Mary, she is one if a kind !

[marv2]

By the way , why is there even the doubt that Mary and Flo are or aren't on the Xmas LP? How did that rumor get started ...by whom ??

There wasn't any doubt until some of these guys joined this forum! We knew about the Andantes at least since 1986 when Mary's first book came out. It's started by people that want to continue to try to elevate Diana Ross at the expense of the other Supremes. The rumors are started by Diana Ross "fans".

[marv2]

Hey Marv! Assuming 2- 4 hour sessions per day @ $12 flat rate per session adjusted for inflation equates to approx. $24.00 hr in 2019. Full time almost $ 50,000
Annually in $2019 with no benefits though!!

That would be the perfect scenario for the Andantes,but I doubt their work was that constant, and or consistent even during the hey-day of Motown.

[marv2]

"Motown didn't value the Andantes."

The same could be said for virtually every other act signed on there including, yes, all three original Supremes.

Funny that happens, huh?

No, that does not correlate. Motown valued big earners. All three Supremes were big earners for the company in the sixties. They invested a lot of money in them and they got great returns for it.

[jobucats]

No, that does not correlate. Motown valued big earners. All three Supremes were big earners for the company in the sixties. They invested a lot of money in them and they got great returns for it.

I agree, marv2. Many fans, in hindsight, will put blistering blame on Mr. Gordy and Motown for not promoting their favorite artists enough or with making profits at the artists' expense. While such 'misuse' might not as easily happen today with specialized attorneys and PR people all around, back in the 50s and 60s, such representation was not common especially at a company which was just getting its feet off the ground. With some exceptions, I believe most of the major artists [[and why wouldn't one focus on them?) did pretty well for themselves. Could it have been better based on what we know today? Yes. Motown was a company and to say it did not value its acts is ludicrous. If I had a company and one or two of its products were making money for me, yes, I will tend to focus more on those two products.

[jobeterob]

Mary promised in her first book to give part of the profits to flo’s children. She gave nothing because I personally asked her during a radio call-in show. She said she changed her mind. LOL

gotta love Mary, she is one if a kind !

She never has had the money to give to anyone - that’s the plain and simple fact

[PeaceNHarmony]

‘Mary does not always tell the truth - she’s an admitted liar in Dreamgirl, accused of duplicity by Flo in several situations and has told whoppers to very recently claiming she coined No-hit Supremes”. I can list sone of her untruths if you wish.

Mary could have told the truth about The Andantes but instead chose to work it into her memoire as another ”poor me” situation after Flo left and not that The A’s had been augmenting or totally replacing them since 1963. THAT would have been telling the truth. What Mary did was write a book using some facts and some falsehoods and some in-between realities.

personally, I don’t believe Mary and Flower are on the Christmas album, I can hear Marlene barrow all over the place…… And, I think Mary and Flos would’ve sounded better especially on white Christmas and well quite a few others. You are so completely not objective about this topic that everyone can predict what you’re going to say before you even say it. George and Andy stated plainly that mary and flow are not on stop the name of love single, you choose not to believe that because Levine Dempsey said she recorded with Mary and flo on that song…… Ignoring the fact that the take that she did with Mary and Florence was not used for the 45… That that you just look for anything to support your agenda and go with it. Other times, when it suits your agenda, you quote Andy and George like they are the holy Gospel. Whenever Smokey Robinson said something positive about Mary you repeat it ad nauseam, but when he wrote in his book that “The story of the Supremes would’ve been the same with Diane and any two girls” you dismissed it as Berry Gordy’s henchmen furthering the company line.The amount of wasted life #laughingstock expends is his own issue, but the sheer volume of falsity he dumps here is truly pathetic.

[midnightman]

I may need to hear the Christmas album again. But I recall my brother had "My Favorite Things" on his Christmas mix CD and to be honest, I can see that the Andantes would've been on it and not Mary & Flo.

[vgalindo]

‘Mary does not always tell the truth - she’s an admitted liar in Dreamgirl, accused of duplicity by Flo in several situations and has told whoppers to very recently claiming she coined No-hit Supremes”. I can list sone of her untruths if you wish.

Mary could have told the truth about The Andantes but instead chose to work it into her memoire as another ”poor me” situation after Flo left and not that The A’s had been augmenting or totally replacing them since 1963. THAT would have been telling the truth. What Mary did was write a book using some facts and some falsehoods and some in-between realities.

personally, I don’t believe Mary and Flower are on the Christmas album, I can hear Marlene barrow all over the place…… And, I think Mary and Flos would’ve sounded better especially on white Christmas and well quite a few others. You are so completely not objective about this topic that everyone can predict what you’re going to say before you even say it. George and Andy stated plainly that mary and flow are not on stop the name of love single, you choose not to believe that because Levine Dempsey said she recorded with Mary and flo on that song…… Ignoring the fact that the take that she did with Mary and Florence was not used for the 45… That that you just look for anything to support your agenda and go with it. Other times, when it suits your agenda, you quote Andy and George like they are the holy Gospel. Whenever Smokey Robinson said something positive about Mary you repeat it ad nauseam, but when he wrote in his book that “The story of the Supremes would’ve been the same with Diane and any two girls” you dismissed it as Berry Gordy’s henchmen furthering the company line.

Thank you MotownManiac. I couldn’t have said it any better!

[blackguy69]

Actually since it’s been brought up dozen times but not fully understanding , what exactly did mary lies about .

[blackguy69]

And since there are plenty of non Mary fans on this thread you be able to list all of them and have the receipts to prove it.

[midnightman]

Actually since it’s been brought up dozen times but not fully understanding , what exactly did mary lies about .

Circa claims that Mary called in on his radio show and when he asked her if she ever gave money to Florence's children, she said she changed her mind.

She also apparently lied about the group being teased for having no hits and that she recently said she herself coined her own group "the no-hit Supremes".

Another lie, or maybe just a partial truth, she claims Motown gave Diana "People" but apparently Diana herself had stopped singing it in late 1966 when the group later toured Asia. Onstage, Flo and Mary sung it. Honestly, I don't know if "People" was ever performed again after Flo left. I could be wrong.

And that the Andantes didn't start singing on their records until after Flo left [[I'm guessing that's what I read).

That's all I can think of now. Maybe the others can fill you in on others.

[marv2]

I may need to hear the Christmas album again. But I recall my brother had "My Favorite Things" on his Christmas mix CD and to be honest, I can see that the Andantes would've been on it and not Mary & Flo.

If they were [[which I doubt), they are singing in a whisper behind Flo and Mary.

[blackguy69]

The no hit claim I’ll give you that one. I trust the claim Circa made about Mary as much as I would trust a claim Marv would make about Diana. Mary did state that the Andantes actually we’re on 75 % of all Motown’s recordings including theirs.
Circa claims that Mary called in on his radio show and when he asked her if she ever gave money to Florence's children, she said she changed her mind.

She also apparently lied about the group being teased for having no hits and that she recently said she herself coined her own group "the no-hit Supremes".

Another lie, or maybe just a partial truth, she claims Motown gave Diana "People" but apparently Diana herself had stopped singing it in late 1966 when the group later toured Asia. Onstage, Flo and Mary sung it. Honestly, I don't know if "People" was ever performed again after Flo left. I could be wrong.

And that the Andantes didn't start singing on their records until after Flo left [[I'm guessing that's what I read).

That's all I can think of now. Maybe the others can fill you in on others.

[marv2]

The no hit claim I’ll give you that one. I trust the claim Circa made about Mary as much as I would trust a claim Marv would make about Diana. Mary did state that the Andantes actually we’re on 75 % of all Motown’s recordings including theirs.
What about that time she got pregnant by Berry Gordy, but led the public to believe the baby was with her husband Robert Silberstein. Oh my bad. That was Diana Ross that pulled that sham.

How about the time in Montreal at Expo '67 when questioned about Florence Ballard, she told the interviewer for the CBC that she had left the group to go into the antiques business. That was a whopper right there!

[vgalindo]

What about that time she got pregnant by Berry Gordy, but led the public to believe the baby was with her husband Robert Silberstein. Oh my bad. That was Diana Ross that pulled that sham.

How about the time in Montreal at Expo '67 when questioned about Florence Ballard, she told the interviewer for the CBC that she had left the group to go into the antiques business. That was a whopper right there!
Oh please. The pregnancy was a private family matter. Diana Ross did not go on TV talking about it. Also everyone at Motown was told what to say in interviews. Just like Michael was told to lie about his age. Completely different from the lies Mary does!!

[blackguy69]

The way both sides argue it sounds more like a bunch of jr high school girls arguing over who said what . Which really makes me wonder what’s really true and what’s really full of it.

[midnightman]

And Motown wasn't the only label where artists had to play the PR game. For years, the Supremes had to say they were "project girls" when the Brewster Projects that they grew up in was much nicer than what it became after they found fame. It's like when Whitney Houston pretended to be from the streets of Newark but she was really a middle class girl from East Orange [[though that one was something WH came up to "be down" lol).

[midnightman]

The no hit claim I’ll give you that one. I trust the claim Circa made about Mary as much as I would trust a claim Marv would make about Diana. Mary did state that the Andantes actually we’re on 75 % of all Motown’s recordings including theirs.

Oh did she? I need to read Dreamgirl again lol

[blackguy69]

Page 134 to be exact .
Oh did she? I need to read Dreamgirl again lol

[blackguy69]

It was still the projects. It was only “nice” g th or a few years before it became dangerous .
And Motown wasn't the only label where artists had to play the PR game. For years, the Supremes had to say they were "project girls" when the Brewster Projects that they grew up in was much nicer than what it became after they found fame. It's like when Whitney Houston pretended to be from the streets of Newark but she was really a middle class girl from East Orange [[though that one was something WH came up to "be down" lol).

[jobeterob]

I have to go look but what do the Merry Christmas liner notes say about the andantes?

[floyjoy678]

Listened to the album today with headphones on and this is what I hear....

"White Christmas" -Diana and the Andantes
"Silver Bells" -Diana and the Andantes
"Born of Mary" -Diana, Mary, Flo and the Andantes
"Children's Christmas Song" -Diana, the Andantes and some stupid kids who cant sing
"The Little Drummer Boy"-Diana, Mary, Flo and the Andantes
"My Christmas Tree" -Diana and the Andantes
"Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer" -Diana, Mary, Flo and the Andantes
"Santa Claus Is Coming to Town" -Diana, Mary, Flo and the Andantes
"My Favorite Things" -Diana and the Andantes
"Twinkle Twinkle Little Me" -Diana and the Andantes
"Little Bright Star" -Diana and the Andantes
"Joy to the World" -Diana and the Andantes

[TomatoTom123]

Oh jeez, here we go again. How many Hail Mary Wilsons in penance must I say?

Eight-thousand, six-hundred and twenty-three.

[blackguy69]

It’s always never ending.
Eight-thousand, six-hundred and twenty-three.

[PeaceNHarmony]

I have to go look but what do the Merry Christmas liner notes say about the andantes?This: 'Andantes - FAKE NOOOZE!'

[marv2]

Are you a big fan of the the Andantes? LOL!!!!

[marv2]

Listened to the album today with headphones on and this is what I hear....

"White Christmas" -Diana and the Andantes
"Silver Bells" -Diana and the Andantes
"Born of Mary" -Diana, Mary, Flo and the Andantes
"Children's Christmas Song" -Diana, the Andantes and some stupid kids who cant sing
"The Little Drummer Boy"-Diana, Mary, Flo and the Andantes
"My Christmas Tree" -Diana and the Andantes
"Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer" -Diana, Mary, Flo and the Andantes
"Santa Claus Is Coming to Town" -Diana, Mary, Flo and the Andantes
"My Favorite Things" -Diana and the Andantes
"Twinkle Twinkle Little Me" -Diana and the Andantes
"Little Bright Star" -Diana and the Andantes
"Joy to the World" -Diana and the Andantes

Those " stupid kids who can't sing" were Berry Gordy Jr's children Berry IV, Hazel and Terry Gordy.

16608

[NativeNuYorker]

And Motown wasn't the only label where artists had to play the PR game. For years, the Supremes had to say they were "project girls" when the Brewster Projects that they grew up in was much nicer than what it became after they found fame. It's like when Whitney Houston pretended to be from the streets of Newark but she was really a middle class girl from East Orange [[though that one was something WH came up to "be down" lol).
Is/was there a middle-class area in East Orange? Where exactly?

[marv2]

And Motown wasn't the only label where artists had to play the PR game. For years, the Supremes had to say they were "project girls" when the Brewster Projects that they grew up in was much nicer than what it became after they found fame. It's like when Whitney Houston pretended to be from the streets of Newark but she was really a middle class girl from East Orange [[though that one was something WH came up to "be down" lol).

You are kidding right? The Brewster Projects were extremely rough back in the 1950s when the Supremes were living there. Gangs, drugs and general pandemonium were present during those years.

[floyjoy678]

Those " stupid kids who can't sing" were Berry Gordy Jr's children Berry IV, Hazel and Terry Gordy.

16608

He should have told them to go play outside

[midnightman]

Is/was there a middle-class area in East Orange? Where exactly?

The Houstons moved to Dodd Street in 1968.

[midnightman]

It was still the projects. It was only “nice” g th or a few years before it became dangerous .

Yeah but it wasn't a dangerous neighborhood. Wasn't exactly middle class but it was still above most black populated areas in Detroit before the late 1960s.

[jobeterob]

I read the liner notes to Merry Christmas - I think there were Supremes somewhere in some of the songs and I think the Supremes were involved in some of the sessions with Diana, Berry’s kids, as Nd the Andantes

I guess that helps some people but the kids were more important than the background vocalist on the one song and the critical piece is always the lead

[PeaceNHarmony]

Is/was there a middle-class area in East Orange? Where exactly?Yes, of course there is.

[marv2]

Yeah but it wasn't a dangerous neighborhood. Wasn't exactly middle class but it was still above most black populated areas in Detroit before the late 1960s.

I don't know where you are getting your information from, or who is telling you this stuff. The Brewster Projects were always a very dangerous place. I have seen it first hand when I was a kid, but listen to someone that actually lived there. Beginning at 20:20 in this video:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mqa8hoEkUeE&t=760s

[sup_fan]

according to the booklet in the last EE of Merry Christmas, there are a LOT of unknown dates for these sessions. So that does open the door to speculation.

They state that lead vocals were cut for Silent Night and O Holy Night on 9/9. I'm assuming these are the Flo leads [[not Diana's Silent lead and i'm also assuming she never cut a lead for Holy, but who knows for certain). So Flo was in the studios on Sept 9.

Also on Sept 9 the backgrounds were recorded for Born of Mary, Rudolph, Santa Claus is Coming To Town and My Favorite Things. They also recut the backgrounds for Little Bright Star.

Now does that mean that Flo and possibly Mary are on those backgrounds? I don't know. But Flo was at a studio doing Xmas recordings on the same day that Xmas backgrounds were recorded.

The girls then were traveling and performing throughout Sept. 9/10 in Philly at JFK Stadium then 9/17 - 26 at the Safari Room in San Jose.

Other background recording dates are: 9/1 Twinkle, Little Bright and Joy to World, 9/13 White Christmas, 9/16 Children Xmas, Little Drummer, My Xmas Tree, 9/21 Silver Bells


So I'm going to GUESS that IF Flo and Mary are on Xmas album, it would most likely be Born of mary, Rudolph, Santa is Coming, Little Bright Star and Favorite. Possibly Twinkle and Joy

When listening to the songs, what tracks do you think you hear M and F on? Sometimes if you listen to the stereo versions of the songs and with headphones on, you can pick up backgrounds split between the two channels. Like on the Floy Joy album. that can help identify which parts might be Sups vs A's

[jobeterob]

I believe the EE also references some recording being done in Los Angeles or California.

[detmotownguy]

Marv my grandparents lived across from the projects and you are 100% correct. I learned a lot in a short period of time. BUT, we made a few good friends. A few folks were quite colorful to say the least.

[marv2]

Marv my grandparents lived across from the projects and you are 100% correct. I learned a lot in a short period of time. BUT, we made a few good friends. A few folks were quite colorful to say the least.

The DeBarge's mom Etherlene grew up in the Brewsters, as well as 80s Motown recording artist Val Young. You can find nice people anywhere, but the Brewster Projects were notorious for some rough people, not quite as bad as Cabrini Green or the Robert Taylor homes in Chicago, but rough, tough.

[midnightman]

I don't know where you are getting your information from, or who is telling you this stuff. The Brewster Projects were always a very dangerous place. I have seen it first hand when I was a kid, but listen to someone that actually lived there. Beginning at 20:20 in this video:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mqa8hoEkUeE&t=760s

I got that information from Fred Ross, the father of you know who. Lol

Not saying Brewster wasn't without trouble even in those early years [[or any other Detroit city for that matter, I mean I read about Black Bottom and Highland Park, where Jackie Wilson became affiliated with a local gang there for protection), I'm sure the Supremes ran with the wrong crowds during their early years [[I distinctly remember reading chapters where Diana nearly had the group killed a few times because she decided to dance with audience members during their early gigs), but are we really gonna act like black neighborhoods are just inherently violent? Might as well call Cissy Houston a liar for suggesting Newark was a peaceful neighborhood prior to the riots and white flight...

Brewster didn't start to become real violent until after the Supremes began scoring hit after hit. The Supremes still lived in Brewster until mid-1965 when they bought their homes on Buena Vista Street.

[midnightman]

I believe the EE also references some recording being done in Los Angeles or California.

Yeah, Motown started to expand their base to California around 1964 [[shortly after signing Brenda Holloway, who was hesitant of recording in Detroit so Motown set up base for her in L.A.). Quite possible some of the Supremes Xmas tracks were created there.

[blackguy69]

It started to get rough before they hit big
I got that information from Fred Ross, the father of you know who. Lol

Not saying Brewster wasn't without trouble even in those early years [[or any other Detroit city for that matter, I mean I read about Black Bottom and Highland Park, where Jackie Wilson became affiliated with a local gang there for protection), I'm sure the Supremes ran with the wrong crowds during their early years [[I distinctly remember reading chapters where Diana nearly had the group killed a few times because she decided to dance with audience members during their early gigs), but are we really gonna act like black neighborhoods are just inherently violent? Might as well call Cissy Houston a liar for suggesting Newark was a peaceful neighborhood prior to the riots and white flight...

Brewster didn't start to become real violent until after the Supremes began scoring hit after hit. The Supremes still lived in Brewster until mid-1965 when they bought their homes on Buena Vista Street.

[jobeterob]

I am playing this in my truck because of this thread.

I don't really pay a lot of attention to who the background might be; but this morning driving to work, on the few songs I heard - I sure didn't hear any Florence anywhere [[other than the added track, O Holy Night) and if Mary is doing those backgrounds, she's very buried behind Andantes.

[TomatoTom123]

If all of you would just listen to someone who was actually there when the recordings happened, I know for a FACT — A FACT — that it's Mozart, Beethoven and Handel who did ALL OF The Supremes' backing vocals on their Christmas album. Admittedly, it is a little known fact, but they all had beautiful female American-English singing voices way into their 200s. And you can quote me on that.

[midnightman]

It started to get rough before they hit big

I did say that they stayed there before they really hit the top. They stayed there until 1965.

I have to read CHMR again... I guess Brewster starts getting rough around 62-63?

[PeaceNHarmony]

If all of you would just listen to someone who was actually there when the recordings happened, I know for a FACT — A FACT — that it's Mozart, Beethoven and Handel who did ALL OF The Supremes' backing vocals on their Christmas album. Admittedly, it is a little known fact, but they all had beautiful female American-English singing voices way into their 200s. And you can quote me on that.Well ... I wasn't going to mention it, Tom, but I as well attended the sessions with MBH and I have to tell you those dooods could PARTAAAY!!

[marv2]

I did say that they stayed there before they really hit the top. They stayed there until 1965.

I have to read CHMR again... I guess Brewster starts getting rough around 62-63?

No, as Mary Wilson said, it was a very rough place in 1956 when she moved there. Projects are rough places just about anywhere. "CHMR" didn't live there.......Mary did!

[marv2]

I got that information from Fred Ross, the father of you know who. Lol

Not saying Brewster wasn't without trouble even in those early years [[or any other Detroit city for that matter, I mean I read about Black Bottom and Highland Park, where Jackie Wilson became affiliated with a local gang there for protection), I'm sure the Supremes ran with the wrong crowds during their early years [[I distinctly remember reading chapters where Diana nearly had the group killed a few times because she decided to dance with audience members during their early gigs), but are we really gonna act like black neighborhoods are just inherently violent? Might as well call Cissy Houston a liar for suggesting Newark was a peaceful neighborhood prior to the riots and white flight...

Brewster didn't start to become real violent until after the Supremes began scoring hit after hit. The Supremes still lived in Brewster until mid-1965 when they bought their homes on Buena Vista Street.

Fred Ross? What? You contacted a Medium? LOL! Did Fred tell you that he told Mary , Florence and Paul Williams not to let Diane join their group? He told them that she didn't have a "group mentality" and that they would be better off if they took his other daughter Barbara? LOL! You can't tell me about Detroit man. I spent half my childhood there, working there, everything there [[LOL!). Half of my relatives are or were from there! I cannot believe you are arguing about something where it is clear you know very little to nothing about. I don't know what you read. Maybe you saw something about how nice the projects were in the 1940s when they first started opening up. There is a bunch you cannot read about Diana Ross and a lot of other people........because it has not been written! I don't know about every black neighborhood, but I do know the ones in Detroit and they were/are ROUGH! You are lying when you say that the Brewster-Douglas Projects did not start to become real violent until after the Supremes began scoring hits. LOL! I wished I had a Time Machine so I could send you back there in the Mid-1950s. You would get beat up every day just for being so naive! LOL! Don't believe Mary? Ask some of the Brewster-Douglas Oldtimers in Detroit. There are still quite a few of them still around. Many of them show up whenever Mary Wilson is in town in concert.

[marv2]

Now here's something I did not know, Helen Thomas, former long time White House Correspondent grew up in that area too.

Lily Tomlin grew up in the Brewster Projects too. Her parents moved up from Tennesee.

[detmotownguy]

Damn Marv I knew abt Lily Tomlin not Helen Thomas! Interesting.

[marv2]

Damn Marv I knew abt Lily Tomlin not Helen Thomas! Interesting.

Yeah, I knew Helen Thomas was a tough, no BS lady and now I know why! LOL! She went to the former Eastern High School which is now called MLK High School. A lot of athletes came out of that school back in the day.

[PeaceNHarmony]

Ralph and George may be able to help with one aspect I've wondered about. It seems that Motown specialty LPs were recorded quickly and a tad scattershot and rushed to the market. If any completed track was deemed artistically complete and releasable is it likely that the powers that be would take the time to mix in missing group vocals? Just for efficiency's sake I would think not. In today's world these could be punched in digitally at a moment's notice; in 1965 it would have been a more time-consuming procedure.

[sup_fan]

Ralph and George may be able to help with one aspect I've wondered about. It seems that Motown specialty LPs were recorded quickly and a tad scattershot and rushed to the market. If any completed track was deemed artistically complete and releasable is it likely that the powers that be would take the time to mix in missing group vocals? Just for efficiency's sake I would think not. In today's world these could be punched in digitally at a moment's notice; in 1965 it would have been a more time-consuming procedure.

yep

motown approached their recordings assembly-line. Writers were constantly crafting songs and ideas, often just rough outlines. producers were organizing studio time to take the songs and get backing tracks prepared. they'd be notified when groups would be available and then have whatever pieces possible ready. so the groups would be brought into the studios to rehearse and crank out a bunch of content.

In listing out the dates of what the girls were doing based on the liner notes from the EE's, you can see how Diana was brought in on days and knocked out a bunch of songs. Backgrounds were done the same way. there'll be 3 or so days of each doing a bunch of stuff, sometimes the same songs and often not.

producers were constantly tinkering with the tracks before [[and sometimes even after) release. additional background vocals, additional instrumentation being added, recording parts, etc. Deke tells a fascinating story in the MRATV 50th Anniv set about I Can't Dance. He wanted to keep working with Martha on the leads and tried to get travel approved to do to wherever she was performing and get some studio time. but it wasn't approved. So he resorted to using Syreeta.

[RanRan79]

I read the liner notes to Merry Christmas - I think there were Supremes somewhere in some of the songs and I think the Supremes were involved in some of the sessions with Diana, Berry’s kids, as Nd the Andantes

I guess that helps some people but the kids were more important than the background vocalist on the one song and the critical piece is always the lead

I always thought it strange that Flo and Mary would be brought into the studio to record leads for the Christmas album but not be brought in for any of the background work. I've also never been convinced that Florence is not on "Santa Claus Is Coming To Town".

[RanRan79]

In regards to the way Motown approached it's background singing, I think it's interesting to note that, while it's been said that it was more convenient to record the lead singer with session singers, this mindset may have only applied to the female groups. The Supremes were extremely busy and so this mindset makes sense. On the other hand, how busy could the Marvelettes have been in comparison, and the Andantes are all over a ton of their stuff during the same time period. On the flip, the Tempts and Tops were nearly as busy as the Supremes [[I'll venture that they were just as busy but not nearly as documented), and yet finding replacement Tempts and Tops on any of their recordings with session singers would be like finding a needle in a haystack. Strange.

[reese]

In regards to the way Motown approached it's background singing, I think it's interesting to note that, while it's been said that it was more convenient to record the lead singer with session singers, this mindset may have only applied to the female groups. The Supremes were extremely busy and so this mindset makes sense. On the other hand, how busy could the Marvelettes have been in comparison, and the Andantes are all over a ton of their stuff during the same time period. On the flip, the Tempts and Tops were nearly as busy as the Supremes [[I'll venture that they were just as busy but not nearly as documented), and yet finding replacement Tempts and Tops on any of their recordings with session singers would be like finding a needle in a haystack. Strange.

I still think that it sometimes boiled down to whose voices a producer preferred on his productions. Unfortunately that didn't always mean the group members. And of course, this wasn't unique to Motown.

Also, in many ways, it was still a man's world back then. I think things that were done to the female singers wouldn't have been attempted on the male singers without some serious kickback. That said, I also think that we don't know for sure. Did other male vocalists like the Originals sub for the Tempts or Tops? Only those involved know for sure.

[sup_fan]

In regards to the way Motown approached it's background singing, I think it's interesting to note that, while it's been said that it was more convenient to record the lead singer with session singers, this mindset may have only applied to the female groups. The Supremes were extremely busy and so this mindset makes sense. On the other hand, how busy could the Marvelettes have been in comparison, and the Andantes are all over a ton of their stuff during the same time period. On the flip, the Tempts and Tops were nearly as busy as the Supremes [[I'll venture that they were just as busy but not nearly as documented), and yet finding replacement Tempts and Tops on any of their recordings with session singers would be like finding a needle in a haystack. Strange.

but also look at the general freedom marvin, smokey were given. I too find it odd that only the female backing vocals were expendable. Smokey never swapped out the male voices on any Miracles or Temps tracks. Some have said that the Marvelettes weren't as strong of singers - maybe harmonies or 3-part work was more challenging for them to do right and do quickly.

i basically sum it up to male chauvinism. there was just always this pervasive chauvinistic attitude at motown [[and frankly around most of the country at this time)

[jobeterob]

but also look at the general freedom marvin, smokey were given. I too find it odd that only the female backing vocals were expendable. Smokey never swapped out the male voices on any Miracles or Temps tracks. Some have said that the Marvelettes weren't as strong of singers - maybe harmonies or 3-part work was more challenging for them to do right and do quickly.

i basically sum it up to male chauvinism. there was just always this pervasive chauvinistic attitude at motown [[and frankly around most of the country at this time)

The other line you hear is that the producers could do whatever they wanted in order to get the sound they wanted.

Maybe they didn't dare do it to the guys.

[RanRan79]

I still think that it sometimes boiled down to whose voices a producer preferred on his productions. Unfortunately that didn't always mean the group members. And of course, this wasn't unique to Motown.

Also, in many ways, it was still a man's world back then. I think things that were done to the female singers wouldn't have been attempted on the male singers without some serious kickback. That said, I also think that we don't know for sure. Did other male vocalists like the Originals sub for the Tempts or Tops? Only those involved know for sure.

I'm not sure about the Tempts- I find it doubtful- but I thought there was at least one song where the Tops are replaced by the Originals. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

But I agree that it does seem to be producer's choice. I believe in a thread a year or two ago we all broke it down a bit among which producers used the Andantes more or less. I don't think any producer used them more than the actual Supremes, but HDH and Smokey were less likely than others to use the Andantes in place of Flo and Mary, until DRATS when I think Smokey used the Andantes more than Mary and Cindy. If I recall correctly.

[RanRan79]

but also look at the general freedom marvin, smokey were given. I too find it odd that only the female backing vocals were expendable. Smokey never swapped out the male voices on any Miracles or Temps tracks. Some have said that the Marvelettes weren't as strong of singers - maybe harmonies or 3-part work was more challenging for them to do right and do quickly.

i basically sum it up to male chauvinism. there was just always this pervasive chauvinistic attitude at motown [[and frankly around most of the country at this time)

I think it's clear that the Marvelettes didn't possess the capabilities of the Supremes and the Vandellas, or even the Velvelettes, which is why I think of all the female groups, the Marvelettes are the easiest to recognize when being replaced by the Andantes.