Motown Modern Soul

[mr_postman]

The Motown F.U.N.K. thread got me thinking: what Motown songs would qualify to be played at or have been played at Modern Soul venues? I thought it would be cool to put together a playlist with some great Motown modern soul. But I'm just getting into 1970's/1980's and Modern Soul in general, and 1970's Motown soul in particular so I need your help. I came up with a few personal favorites of mine that I reckon could fit on a Modern dancefloor:

Marvin Gaye - Come Get To This
Eddie Kendricks - Date With The Rain
Four Tops - Red Hot Love
Bottom & Co - Gotta Find A True Love
G.C. Cameron - Let Me Down Easy
The Temptations - Treat Her Like A Lady
Tata Vega - I Need You Now
The Originals - Good Lovin' Is Just A Dime Away
The Dynamic Superiors - Don't Send Nobody Else
David Ruffin - I've Got Nothing But Time
David Ruffin - It Takes All Kinds Of People To Make A World
David Ruffin - Discover Me
[[Then again, most songs on David's three Van McCoy-produced albums could fit)

What you think of these choices? Which ones would you add?

[roger]

Well .. as a starter ..

Not an artist normally associated with "Rare" or "Northern" soul .. but I don't think you can beat this ..

MICHAEL JACKSON : "Just A Little Bit Of You"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0uKt3u54Uvs

It kind of fits into that JEFF PERRY "Love Don't Come No Stronger" groove ..

Roger

[marv2]

Some good choices I believe:

Eddie Kendricks - Girl You Need A Change of Mind
Marvin Gaye- You Sure Like to Ball
Supremes - Sweet Dream Machine
Teena Marie - I Need Your Lovin'
Rick James - Big Time
High Inergy - He's A Pretender
DeBarge - Stay With Me
Stevie Wonder - All I Do
Stevie Wonder - That Girl
Temptations - What A Way to Put It
David Ruffin - Walk Away From Love
Michael Jackson - I Wanna Be Where You Are
Syreeta Wright - Quick Slick
Four Tops - Sexy Ways
Mary Wilson - Red Hot [[Nah, That's Hot Mix)

[roger]

How about ..

THE TEMPTATIONS : "Aiming At Your Heart".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lrjZTKNg6Z0

WILLIE HUTCH : "Love Power"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7BaKcP6RWG8

And .. of course that old "Northern" favourite ..

JUNIOR WALKER : "I Ain't Going Nowhere" .. its from around 1974 so it must count!! :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PL6SIAh2nqk

Incidentally Mr_Postman, I'm not sure if U.S. posters really understand what is meant by "Modern Soul" in Britain .. my definition would be dancable Soul music made after Motown left Detroit .. 1972/3 onwards .. that doesn't really qualify as either "Disco" or "Funk".

This one veers a bit towards "Disco" IMHO .. but I love it all the same and think it fits ..

21ST CREATION : "Tailgate"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OvzwvxjoAdw

There must be dozens of others not yet mentioned ..

Roger

[soulwally]

Roger: Good call on Aiming At Your Heart. And you don't half like some Tailgate.

How about... What Is A Heart Good For [[Miracles), Can't Get Ready For Losing You [[Miracles/jackson 5), Bad Weather [[Supremes)

[soulwally]

...plus the Spinners' Together We Can Make Such Sweet Music

[rovereab]

Upside Down - Diana Ross
All Night Long - Lionel Richie
Behind The Groove - Teena Marie

Eamonn

[Motown_M_1056]

Upside Down - Diana Ross
All Night Long - Lionel Richie
Behind The Groove - Teena Marie

Eamonn

What is "modern soul?"

[tomato tom]

Thelma Houston Saturday Night, Sunday Morning
Tata Vega Just Keep Thinking About You Baby
Caston & Majors Child Of love
Willie Hutch Party Down
Rare Earth Midnight Lady

Just a few of the top of my head, that I LOVE..Paulo xxx

[roger]

What is "modern soul?"

Hi Motown_m_1056 ..

"Modern Soul" is a term used in Britain to describe dancable Soul Music recorded from the early '70s and beyond .. here is my definition that I posted earlier today ..

"dancable Soul music made after Motown left Detroit .. 1972/3 onwards .. that doesn't really qualify as either "Disco" or "Funk""

Here is a great example .. and the video features the U.K release of this tune too .. :)

WILLIE HUTCH : " In And Out"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w5_HHMrAGCE

:)

Roger

[daddyacey]

Bobby Nunns --Groupie , from 82
Undisputed Truth-- Earthquake Shake ,from 75
Jr Walker-- Come See About Me
Temptations-- Glass House
Supremes--Don't Want To Be Tied Down 76
Willie Hutch-- Brothers Gonna Work It Out 73
Willie Hutch-- Slick 73
Willie Hutch-- Love Power 75

[grapevine]

...here's a few you might want to include in your comps ...Mr Postman and Roger

Let's Make Love Now - Art & Honey
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LH092A3ySSo

Rolling Down A Mountainside - Third Creation
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k2rcQJAwOXc

I'm Truly Yours - Eric & The Vikings
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ifISeHKA3RI

So Many Sides Of You - Bobby Womack
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cBHj-L6u9Q4

Gonna Find A True Love - Bottom & Company
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MhmtYcclbaQ

If You Don't Love Me - GC Cameron
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WqhoqAdtJPs

You Can't Stop A Man In Love - Reuben Howell
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dws9BZYCBqw

:)

[grapevine]

...and here's a few more

Take Me Clear From Here - David Ruffin
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=69_BwTovPSc

Bad Weather - The Supremes
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x58lkn_the-supremes-produced-by-stevie-won_music

Nothing Is Too Good For You Baby - Jamal Trice
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UfxBkwT_roA

Come Get To This - Marvin Gaye
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qhv_o8z7frw

Tell Her Love Has Felt The Need - Eddie Kendricks
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u37_Ms2V4e0

Do It Baby - The Miracles
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qPZWr0uN6Pw

Spread The News - Bottom & Company
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yXLFFpZ6VRU

I Want To Make It Easy For You - Leslie Uggams
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4TPtoD-xPl4

Wendy Is Gone - Ronnie McNeir
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CCUXPhtm5tc

I Was Born This Way - Valentino
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oNo8gUheg3I

This Empty Place - Stephanie Mills
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fz1tOagMzwU

Good Lovin' Is Just A Dime Away - The Originals
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d7UitkUnc9U

Gettin' Ready For Love - Diana Ross
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWntncsD_gY

The Devil In Mrs Jones - Bobby Womack
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnRC5fvwUvQ

Say That You Love Me Boy - Softouch
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zdzlKX3mX6g

French Waltz - Leon Ware
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oN91RLjzcoU

Don't Freeze Up - Flavor
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UYiiNCW3q94

Body Chains - Eddie Parker
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gCib6Snm-Zs

Try It You'll Like It - Sisters Love
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QI2V3zF7DwU

Since I Met You - Lenny Williams
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u91NtGrsS4U

Where Do I Go From Here - The Supremes
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFZyUlxStJU

First Round Knockout - Joe Frazier
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bK6DjV49uXI

Control Tower - Magic Disco Machine
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_oswNQxlfuo

:)

[daddyacey]

Here is an interesting link and article re: The what is Northern /Modern Soul question ,from the U.S.A. point of view.

http://www.soulandfunkmusic.com/component/content/article/1792-souled-out-who-keeps-messing-with-our-music-by-lamar-r-thomas-sr.html

[roger]

Here is an interesting link and article re: The what is Northern /Modern Soul question ,from the U.S.A. point of view.

http://www.soulandfunkmusic.com/component/content/article/1792-souled-out-who-keeps-messing-with-our-music-by-lamar-r-thomas-sr.html

Well daddyacey .. that was an interesting article by LAMAR THOMAS and I think it illustrates the differences in perspective quite well.

Here is my take on it all .. seen from a purely British perspective ..

In my view the terms "Modern Soul" and "Northern Soul" really refer to whether the specific recordings are suitable for playing at clubs/nights being promoted as "Modern Soul" or "Northern Soul" nights .. in other words they relate to playlists and formats, they are not technically specific musical "styles".

When the terms came in common usage in Britain [[ "Northern Soul" around 1971/2 and "Modern Soul" some four or five years later ) they were used to describe the kind of music that you might hear certain D.Js play at certain venues, they were rarely used [[ if at all ) to describe the recording artists/songwriters/producers/musicians themselves.

Its interesting that in his article Mr Lamar makes much mention of U.S. Black radio as a means of promoting music, and the current difficulties. What needs to be realised is that in Northern and Central England in the early 1970s there was NO "Black Radio" at all. There was precious little music radio too ..

Where I lived we had ..

Two British stations ..
BBC Radio One .. format Top 20/Chart based during the day .. progressive rock in the evening.
BBC Radio Two .. format M.O.R./Easy listening ..

TWO Continental stations ..
Radio Luxembourg .. night-time A.M. from Continental Europe format Top 20/Chart based .. poor signal which could fade.
R.N.I. .. Dutch based offshore pirate .. format Top 20/Chart based English language programs at night, Dutch during the day.

And with a bit of searching at night ..
American Forces Radio [[ AFN ) from Germany .. poor reception .. format sports shows and music shows with the latest U.S. hits.

BBC Radio One had an hour long show each week where new Soul/R&B releases were reviewed.
AFN had a few shows playing current U.S R&B/Soul .
Current releases from established U.S. "Soul" acts such as DIANA ROSS/TEMPTATIONS/ARETHA FRANKLIN had a reasonable chance of making the Radio One playlist, other acts could struggle.
Apart from that there was nothing/nada/rien/zilch.

In North/Central England to hear large amounts of Soul/R&B music you could go to the Nightclubs/Discotheques, where "Soul" was especially popular as it was good to dance to. Particularly popular was the uptempo mid/late 60s material. So those who liked to go out and dance gravitated to "Soul" and some records managed to make the U.K. charts without having significant radio exposure, due to sales generated via prolongued discotheque play.

Some D.Js/venues would have nights/sessions where they played nothing but "Soul", with the emphasis firmly on the uptempo mid/late '60s material. People who attended these venues developed distinctive styles of Dance and dress. These venues would attract "collectors" as well as "dancers" and to keep their playlists "fresh" the D.Js would search out previously unknown uptempo mid/late '60s material. As a general rule the current dancable U.S. "Soul" releases were ignored as they had a slower, more funky sound that didn't quite fit the format.

The venues in the early '70s that specialised in playing this mid/late '60s uptempo "Soul" were overwhelmingly concentrated in North West and North Central England .. Manchester/Lancashire/Leeds/Stoke/Nottingham/Wolverhampton etc. .. areas considered by the London media to be "The North" and someone dreamt up the term "Northern Soul" to describe the uptempo mid/late '60s material they played. Soon these venues started to describe themselves as "Northern Soul" venues.

In the meantime, back in the U.S.A. changes in musical styles were occurring and in 1973/4 an increasing number of the new records had a lighter, more uptempo sound .. notably the "Philly" tunes and the early "Disco" material coming out of NYC/NJ.

Some time around 1974/5 some of the D.Js who played "Northern Soul" started to experiment by mixing in these newer mid/uptempo U.S. Soul/R&B releases .. some of the collecters and dancers liked the change in format. Soon some nights/sessions stopped concentrating on the Mid/Late '60s uptempo material and concentrated on the newer '70s material instead.

Some "Northern Soul" collectors and dancers were horrified by the new format, which had started to develop its own styles of dancing and dress. These "traditionalists" wanted to continue with the uptempo mid/late '60s sound, so someone came up with the term "Modern Soul" to describe the new format and venues/sessions concentrating on new/'70s releases started to promote themselves as playing "Modern Soul".

So .. from 1976 onwards if a venue in Britain advertised itself as playing "Northern Soul" you could expect to hear a lot of uptempo mid/late '60s Soul, with only the occasional release from after 1970 [[ as had been the case at the time when the term "Northern Soul" was first used ). If a venue described itself as playing "Modern Soul" you could expect a mix of brand new releases and obscure recordings from 1972/3 onwards with just the occasional recording from prior to 1970.

These terms meant that Soul music fans would be able to decide for themselves whether they wanted to attend a particular venue. People who wanted to sweat the night away stomping along to recordings from 1966 could avoid "Modern Soul" venues, those who wanted to dress up and prance along to '70s recordings could avoid "Northern Soul" venues. :)

However the two formats were never mutually exclusive, bigger dancehall venues can have two or more rooms, and "Northern" can be played in one and "Modern" in another. People can, and some do, spend time in both. Some recordings fit both formats. Virtually every Soul/R&B recording artists who's recording career spanned both the mid/late sixties and the mid 70's has made records that fit either format.

Having got that off my chest I shall now amuse myself by listening to some of those suggestions Grapevine has posted ..

:)

Roger

[paul_nixon]

I'd lile to add that the whole Ronnie McNeir Motown album, Love's Coming Down, was just so way ahead of it's time in 1976 and today sounds more like a 90's neo soul album that a 70's one. Expansion Records have just done an amazing job bringing this overlooked album to the digital market for the first time and with oodles of bonus unreleased cuts as well. For me you just can't beat a bit of Selling My Heart To The Junkman or You're All I Need To Survive.

[Motown_M_1056]

Well daddyacey .. that was an interesting article by LAMAR THOMAS and I think it illustrates the differences in perspective quite well.

Here is my take on it all .. seen from a purely British perspective ..

In my view the terms "Modern Soul" and "Northern Soul" really refer to whether the specific recordings are suitable for playing at clubs/nights being promoted as "Modern Soul" or "Northern Soul" nights .. in other words they relate to playlists and formats, they are not technically specific musical "styles".

When the terms came in common usage in Britain [[ "Northern Soul" around 1971/2 and "Modern Soul" some four or five years later ) they were used to describe the kind of music that you might hear certain D.Js play at certain venues, they were rarely used [[ if at all ) to describe the recording artists/songwriters/producers/musicians themselves.

Its interesting that in his article Mr Lamar makes much mention of U.S. Black radio as a means of promoting music, and the current difficulties. What needs to be realised is that in Northern and Central England in the early 1970s there was NO "Black Radio" at all. There was precious little music radio too ..

Where I lived we had ..

Two British stations ..
BBC Radio One .. format Top 20/Chart based during the day .. progressive rock in the evening.
BBC Radio Two .. format M.O.R./Easy listening ..

TWO Continental stations ..
Radio Luxembourg .. night-time A.M. from Continental Europe format Top 20/Chart based .. poor signal which could fade.
R.N.I. .. Dutch based offshore pirate .. format Top 20/Chart based English language programs at night, Dutch during the day.

And with a bit of searching at night ..
American Forces Radio [[ AFN ) from Germany .. poor reception .. format sports shows and music shows with the latest U.S. hits.

BBC Radio One had an hour long show each week where new Soul/R&B releases were reviewed.
AFN had a few shows playing current U.S R&B/Soul .
Current releases from established U.S. "Soul" acts such as DIANA ROSS/TEMPTATIONS/ARETHA FRANKLIN had a reasonable chance of making the Radio One playlist, other acts could struggle.
Apart from that there was nothing/nada/rien/zilch.

In North/Central England to hear large amounts of Soul/R&B music you could go to the Nightclubs/Discotheques, where "Soul" was especially popular as it was good to dance to. Particularly popular was the uptempo mid/late 60s material. So those who liked to go out and dance gravitated to "Soul" and some records managed to make the U.K. charts without having significant radio exposure, due to sales generated via prolongued discotheque play.

Some D.Js/venues would have nights/sessions where they played nothing but "Soul", with the emphasis firmly on the uptempo mid/late '60s material. People who attended these venues developed distinctive styles of Dance and dress. These venues would attract "collectors" as well as "dancers" and to keep their playlists "fresh" the D.Js would search out previously unknown uptempo mid/late '60s material. As a general rule the current dancable U.S. "Soul" releases were ignored as they had a slower, more funky sound that didn't quite fit the format.

The venues in the early '70s that specialised in playing this mid/late '60s uptempo "Soul" were overwhelmingly concentrated in North West and North Central England .. Manchester/Lancashire/Leeds/Stoke/Nottingham/Wolverhampton etc. .. areas considered by the London media to be "The North" and someone dreamt up the term "Northern Soul" to describe the uptempo mid/late '60s material they played. Soon these venues started to describe themselves as "Northern Soul" venues.

In the meantime, back in the U.S.A. changes in musical styles were occurring and in 1973/4 an increasing number of the new records had a lighter, more uptempo sound .. notably the "Philly" tunes and the early "Disco" material coming out of NYC/NJ.

Some time around 1974/5 some of the D.Js who played "Northern Soul" started to experiment by mixing in these newer mid/uptempo U.S. Soul/R&B releases .. some of the collecters and dancers liked the change in format. Soon some nights/sessions stopped concentrating on the Mid/Late '60s uptempo material and concentrated on the newer '70s material instead.

Some "Northern Soul" collectors and dancers were horrified by the new format, which had started to develop its own styles of dancing and dress. These "traditionalists" wanted to continue with the uptempo mid/late '60s sound, so someone came up with the term "Modern Soul" to describe the new format and venues/sessions concentrating on new/'70s releases started to promote themselves as playing "Modern Soul".

So .. from 1976 onwards if a venue in Britain advertised itself as playing "Northern Soul" you could expect to hear a lot of uptempo mid/late '60s Soul, with only the occasional release from after 1970 [[ as had been the case at the time when the term "Northern Soul" was first used ). If a venue described itself as playing "Modern Soul" you could expect a mix of brand new releases and obscure recordings from 1972/3 onwards with just the occasional recording from prior to 1970.

These terms meant that Soul music fans would be able to decide for themselves whether they wanted to attend a particular venue. People who wanted to sweat the night away stomping along to recordings from 1966 could avoid "Modern Soul" venues, those who wanted to dress up and prance along to '70s recordings could avoid "Northern Soul" venues. :)

However the two formats were never mutually exclusive, bigger dancehall venues can have two or more rooms, and "Northern" can be played in one and "Modern" in another. People can, and some do, spend time in both. Some recordings fit both formats. Virtually every Soul/R&B recording artists who's recording career spanned both the mid/late sixties and the mid 70's has made records that fit either format.

Having got that off my chest I shall now amuse myself by listening to some of those suggestions Grapevine has posted ..

:)

Roger

Roger, that was a good explanation. Especially the part about parts of the UK not having black radio. For us here in the US, it's kind of strange to hear terms like "modern soul," because any soul music released in the current year is considered modern. BLACk radio or classic soul tends to play a lot of black music, slow & fast, and it's regarded as simply classic soul. We make distinctions of genres like blues, southern soul and jazz, but any soul music not issued in the current year is just considered old or classic.

[daddyacey]

Good views on the two perspectives here!!!! I would also like to add that the U.K.'s "Modern Soul" playlist ,features a majority of what we here in the U.S. consider album tracks and or B sides of singles ,that were not played on U.S. "Black Radio" ,simply because of the nature of the marketing here in the States. Though a lot ofthese tracks and artists are known to some of us here that have these albums and singles and have played them at home because we purchased them for the "Hits" etc or heard them in clubs as a result of diversity on the part of the D.J.'s expanding playlists away from the usual tracks played. I myself have discovered many tracks from my own homeland that I have missed ,by following the Northern Soul playlists and continue to do so. As a result ,I have a high respect for the U.K. attitude of music being good ,regardless of popularity and age ,as opposed to the the attitude here in the states as being a "Hit" or New/Old or popular. Great thread.

[roger]

Roger, that was a good explanation. Especially the part about parts of the UK not having black radio. For us here in the US, it's kind of strange to hear terms like "modern soul," because any soul music released in the current year is considered modern. BLACk radio or classic soul tends to play a lot of black music, slow & fast, and it's regarded as simply classic soul. We make distinctions of genres like blues, southern soul and jazz, but any soul music not issued in the current year is just considered old or classic.

I don't think that the situation re "Black Radio" was much better in other parts of the U.K. Motown_M_1056.

Until the end of 1973 the BBC has a monopoly on legal broadcasting in Britain. So the only '60s and early '70s alternatives were nightime stations from the continent or "pirates".

"Pirates" were either offshore "Top 40" stations [[ as portrayed in the recent movie - "Pirate Radio"/"The Boat That Rocked" ) or later on small scale, low power efforts run by enthusiasts in the big cities [[ who would have to keep one eye out for the authorities coming around to confiscate their broadcasting equipment ).

Even when the government started licensing commercial stations from 1974 onwards they all basically had a Top-40 format through to the end of the '80s.

In London a number of low power "pirates" were operating through the '80s, which had a "Black/Soul" format, leading to the Government eventually licensing stations in the '90s that had "specialist" formats, such as Jazz-FM [[ Soul and Jazz ) , Choice [[ Urban/R&B/Hip-Hop ), Kiss-FM [[ Dance/R&B/Soul ), Galaxy [[ Dance ). Though these legal "specialist" stations were only available in certain areas of the U.K.

Basically, in the '60s and '70s the main means of promoting Soul/R&B was the clubs/discotheques. With a sufficient push to the discotheque D.Js [[ promo records etc ) a record could become well known enough for it to enter the lower reaches of the U.K. charts and the radio stations [[ basically just BBC Radio One ) would take notice.

This had some BIG effects ..

Firstly the Soul records that became big sellers were overwhelmingly the "dance" tunes, often the British record companies wouldn't even bother to release ballads, or if contractual reasons meant they had to they didn't promote them.

Secondly, the U.K. "pop" charts were based on Sales .. a lot of released Soul records that became popular Club/Discotheque favourites never charted .. but they sold significantly over a long period of time. I don't know how many copies of "Needle In A Haystack" by THE VELVELETTES were sold in Britain, it never charted but its an extremely well known record that was hardly ever out of print. I can well imagine it outsold many records that made the U.K. Top 10.

Thirdly, when some records were deleted by the U.K. record companies they were still popular in some of the clubs/discotheques, creating a pent up demand. Savvy British record companies would re-release old records if they sensed this was the case and with a bit of publicity the initial surge of sales as eager fans rushed to the shops to finally buy that record they'd been dancing to for the past year or three could get a record to chart, which would put it on the BBC Radio One playlist.

In the period from 1969 to 1974 there were dozens of high charting old "Soul" records in the U.K. Including one that even made #1 [[ THE TAMS : "Hey Girl Don't Bother Me" ), due to pent-up demand.

So, the idea that to be "good" a record had to be a "hit" and for it to be a "hit" it had to be "good" made no sense to anyone in the U.K. who liked "Soul".

Roger