Reflections on THAT picture

[waynesville]

This is to me one of the defining images of soul. Look closely, it isn’t just that the girls in in their wonderful afros, but that they are wearing black turtle necks to match against a dark background. Look a bit more; they are looking straight at you, not, as usual, looking slightly off centre. Jean’s mouth is slightly open and her face is slightly at an angle but her eyes are looking right at you. Jean isn't smiling and neither are Mary or Cindy.
This is a statement picture, a serious work of art. It says we’re black and beautiful and intelligent and if you don’t like it then its your problem.
That it should have been the cover of New Ways goes without saying.
I have this as my screen saver on my laptop but I wanted a high definition print to put on the wall. So I went down to Getty in London to discuss. They were quite happy to deal, selling images is a useful sideline for them. Weirdly, although Getty Images acquired the archive of the photographer, Michael Ochs, their database at HQ in LA didn't seem to include a negative, only what was listed as a Motown Publicity Pic.
Without a negative it looked very unpromising. They said they would have a go but the result was disappointing. I was left with the only option being to pay upfront for the pic to be rescanned on the [[better) technology of today, but there could be no guarantees.
Does anyone here know anything about the history of that image??




16485

[sup_fan]

the girls did this photo shoot in mid 70 or so. there are several poses.

it truly is a stunning pic of the girls. and all of the shots captured here are sensational. My fav pose is the one used on the cover of their 1970 album New Ways But Love Stays. You can see they used another shot for the back cover art

as for a HD version, you might have the best luck using the first one. it was the cover of the Supremes 70s Anthology cd set. so you might be able to find it online. or scan in the cd cover booklet and crop

16486
16487
16488
16489
16490

[marv2]

This is to me one of the definining images of soul. Look closely, it isn’t just that the girls in in their wonderful afros, but that they are wearing black turtle necks to match against a dark background. Look a bit more; they are looking straight at you, not, as usual, looking slightly off centre. Jean’s mouth is slightly open and her face is slightly at an angle but hey eyes are looking right at you. Jean isn't smiling and neither are Mary or Cindy.
This is a statement picture, a serious work of art. It says we’re black and beautiful and intelligent and if you don’t like it then its your problem.
That it should have been the cover of New Ways goes without saying.
I have this as my screen saver on my laptop but I wanted a high definition print to put on the wall. So I went down to Getty in London to discuss. They were quite happy to deal, selling images is a useful sideline for them. Weirdly, although Getty Images acquired the archive of the photographer, Michael Ochs, their database didn't seem to include a negative, only what was listed as a Motown Publicity Pic.
Without a negative it looked very unpromising. They said they would have a go but the result was disappointing. I was left with the only option being to pay upfront for the pic to be rescanned on the [[better) technology of today, but there could be no guarantees.
Does anyone here know anything about the history of that image??




16485

There is only one word for this photo......ICONIC! After this picture was made public, a number of artists and record companies attempted to duplicate it with other groups. None were quite able to pull it off! To me, it is the all time best picture of the Supremes.

[marv2]

The first time I saw this exact photo was in the Toledo Blade newspaper in 1970. It, along with a pic of the Four Tops were printed, along with the lyrics to their current hit "River Deep, Mountain High". I saw a photo of Michael Jackson at home and this picture was one of the ones on the wall in his room.

[sup_fan]

There is only one word for this photo......ICONIC! After this picture was made public, a number of artists and record companies attempted to duplicated it with other groups. None were quite able to pull it off! To me, it is the all time best picture of the Supremes.

and to be honest, the pics of MJL and MSC silhouetted didn't stand up to this one either.

the pic of MSS on the cover of final album, is pretty much equally stunning although for different reasons and artistic statements. This MJC pic is gorgeous and elegant black pride. strong stunning black beauties

the MSS pic is more of sexy elegance. the combo of quiet storm and disco sultry-ness.

[detmotownguy]

This is to me one of the definining images of soul. Look closely, it isn’t just that the girls in in their wonderful afros, but that they are wearing black turtle necks to match against a dark background. Look a bit more; they are looking straight at you, not, as usual, looking slightly off centre. Jean’s mouth is slightly open and her face is slightly at an angle but hey eyes are looking right at you. Jean isn't smiling and neither are Mary or Cindy.
This is a statement picture, a serious work of art. It says we’re black and beautiful and intelligent and if you don’t like it then its your problem.
That it should have been the cover of New Ways goes without saying.
I have this as my screen saver on my laptop but I wanted a high definition print to put on the wall. So I went down to Getty in London to discuss. They were quite happy to deal, selling images is a useful sideline for them. Weirdly, although Getty Images acquired the archive of the photographer, Michael Ochs, their database didn't seem to include a negative, only what was listed as a Motown Publicity Pic.
Without a negative it looked very unpromising. They said they would have a go but the result was disappointing. I was left with the only option being to pay upfront for the pic to be rescanned on the [[better) technology of today, but there could be no guarantees.
Does anyone here know anything about the history of that image??




16485
Great thread! All I can say is whew!
But Cindy is an underrated beauty.

[midnightman]

This was gonna be the cover of their album if it was allowed to be titled "STONE Love".

[marv2]

This was gonna be the cover of their album if it was allowed to be titled "STONE Love".

They should have used that exact photo rather than any of the ones that ended up on the album cover. They should have used this black and white photo it is all kinds of awesome!

[detmotownguy]

This was gonna be the cover of their album if it was allowed to be titled "STONE Love".
Does anyone know of Berry was involved with the whole issue of using the word "Stone or Stoned" for the album title? Was he even involved with their career at this point? That frilly crap to me was outdated and a turnoff. This was 1970-1971 and things were changing. I wanted to see hip girls and those photos above were just the ticket looking like strong, serious and beautiful women. However, they still had longtime fans and prob expected the frill.

[daviddh]

Great photo and I would agree that this photo should have been the cover shot. But I like the title New Ways love stays.

[thanxal]

This is my number one favorite photo of any incarnation of the Supremes. It is the height of the "black is beautiful" movement and is dramatic, elegant, and powerful. As much as I love the photo for the cover of HDH, this one is so it!

[gman]

in the 70's there was a VERY thick sheet music book called The Motown Era...this was the full page shot used for the group

[marv2]

I know it is a photograph, but is also a work of art. Does anyone know who the photographer was?

[waynesville]

a guy called Michael Ochs. Getty acquired the archives of his work when he died

[mike_sku]

When I was in high school, I was on the school newspaper. Two of us on the staff were invited to a "press conference" that the Supremes held [[one of the conference rooms in either Strawbridge's or Wanamaker's in Philly), and we were given a copy of this photo to use in a newspaper article if we chose to do so. I think it was either in late 1970 or early 1971. I may still have the photo.

[marv2]

a guy called Michael Ochs. Getty acquired the archives of his work when he died

I always wondered if he was an actual photographer or just a curator and clearing house.

[marv2]

When I was in high school, I was on the school newspaper. Two of us on the staff were invited to a "press conference" that the Supremes held [[one of the conference rooms in either Strawbridge's or Wanamaker's in Philly), and we were given a copy of this photo to use in a newspaper article if we chose to do so. I think it was either in late 1970 or early 1971. I may still have the photo.


Wow! I remember Strawbridge & Clothiers. I financed my first VCR through them! LOL!

[nathanj06]

The first post photo is the most stunning for an album cover. Mary Wilson was right, it should have been used and titled "Stoned Love". That would have made a significant impact in 1970. I always thought that pink cover was a complete mess. Another missed opportunity for sure.

[marv2]

The first post photo is the most stunning for an album cover. Mary Wilson was right, it should have been used and titled "Stoned Love". That would have made a significant impact in 1970. I always thought that pink cover was a complete mess. Another missed opportunity for sure.

That pink cover may have worked in 1967 during the "Summer of Love" LOL!

[daviddh]

Agreed.this should have been the cover. If ever we get an expanded edition ...which I doubt....would love this to be a new cover

[midnightman]

Does anyone know of Berry was involved with the whole issue of using the word "Stone or Stoned" for the album title? Was he even involved with their career at this point? That frilly crap to me was outdated and a turnoff. This was 1970-1971 and things were changing. I wanted to see hip girls and those photos above were just the ticket looking like strong, serious and beautiful women. However, they still had longtime fans and prob expected the frill.

When Kenny Thomas wrote the song, it was originally called "Stone Love". The ones behind making the Motown 45's accidentally put "d" in it. As far as I know, Mary intended for the album to be called "Stone/d Love" and for the Black Panthers-esque photo to be the cover. But Berry feared it would've alienated the group's white fan base so they put the photo along with other more familiar poses of the Supremes in their gowns and wigs.

And had it titled "New Ways but Love Stays". I think in terms of their albums with Jean, Motown truly dropped the ball on them. Jean had a voice that could easily cross over to pop. It was the right blend of soul and pop just as Diana's was. But they just missed the mark. It didn't stop the Supremes' momentum for a time though as a singles act.

By the way, does anyone know if Kenny was white or black? There has never been a picture posted of the dude. I wonder what happened to him!

[gman]

I happen to like the pink cover....not saying it was smarter choice....Nice if they reversed the rear panel image to the front, the happier looking photo would be more well suited to a song hopeful for universal love, and keep the smaller images for the rear panel....minus the dayglo art behind the die cut...flimsy die cuts covers were a PITA...this one at least had enough border it held up well....Both my "Mag 7" and Honey Cone "Soulful Tapestry" covers tore rather quickly...the FLO's Motorcity Ian Levine 12" Hit and Miss had a copycat cover...2 tone Pink artwork, a large round group photo of Scherrie, Jean and Lynda, smaller round individual / group pics. I personally don't like the fidelity on the LP version of Stoned Love. the single can't be beat for its brilliance [[same w/ Up The Ladder & Nathan Jones) Pity both singles Stoned Love and I'm Gonna Let My Heart sound like they have a "tone arm / needle drop" intro

[detmotownguy]

When Kenny Thomas wrote the song, it was originally called "Stone Love". The ones behind making the Motown 45's accidentally put "d" in it. As far as I know, Mary intended for the album to be called "Stone/d Love" and for the Black Panthers-esque photo to be the cover. But Berry feared it would've alienated the group's white fan base so they put the photo along with other more familiar poses of the Supremes in their gowns and wigs.

And had it titled "New Ways but Love Stays". I think in terms of their albums with Jean, Motown truly dropped the ball on them. Jean had a voice that could easily cross over to pop. It was the right blend of soul and pop just as Diana's was. But they just missed the mark. It didn't stop the Supremes' momentum for a time though as a singles act.

By the way, does anyone know if Kenny was white or black? There has never been a picture posted of the dude. I wonder what happened to him!

Yes thanks. Now I remember Berry's concern. Interesting dichotomy considering he relented on putting out Whats Going On and Cloud Nine. And when you think of it, Love Child a yr or 2 earlier. Yikes!

[marv2]

When Kenny Thomas wrote the song, it was originally called "Stone Love". The ones behind making the Motown 45's accidentally put "d" in it. As far as I know, Mary intended for the album to be called "Stone/d Love" and for the Black Panthers-esque photo to be the cover. But Berry feared it would've alienated the group's white fan base so they put the photo along with other more familiar poses of the Supremes in their gowns and wigs.

And had it titled "New Ways but Love Stays". I think in terms of their albums with Jean, Motown truly dropped the ball on them. Jean had a voice that could easily cross over to pop. It was the right blend of soul and pop just as Diana's was. But they just missed the mark. It didn't stop the Supremes' momentum for a time though as a singles act.

By the way, does anyone know if Kenny was white or black? There has never been a picture posted of the dude. I wonder what happened to him!

Kenny Thomas is black and from Pontiac. He's still around.

[marv2]

Yes thanks. Now I remember Berry's concern. Interesting dichotomy considering he relented on putting out Whats Going On and Cloud Nine. And when you think of it, Love Child a yr or 2 earlier. Yikes!

Again, Berry's "concern" is just what was put out there for public consumption as a reason why he was not going to get behind the record 100 percent! "Stoned Love" should have been number one across the board! It should have had a picture sleeve for the single and the single edit could have been done with more thought and care. Still it holds up as one of the best records the Supremes ever made and one of the best records Motown released in 1970!

[daviddh]

Didn't Frank Wilson pass away.
Love most of the New Ways album but to many covers...would love to know what other out takes there were.

[marv2]

Didn't Frank Wilson pass away.
Love most of the New Ways album but to many covers...would love to know what other out takes there were.

Yes Frank passed several years ago.

[midnightman]

Kenny Thomas is black and from Pontiac. He's still around.

I figured he was a brother lol
Just wanted confirmation. Thanks.

[midnightman]

Didn't Frank Wilson pass away.
Love most of the New Ways album but to many covers...would love to know what other out takes there were.

Yeah, Frank died in 2012, some 42 years after "Stoned Love" came out.

[sup_fan]

i've always wondered a bit about the whole story/legend/myth about the NWBLS album art

Both the lp and the single were released in october 70. As people here have mentioned earlier in this thread, the lp had a relatively complex die-cut cover. those require more time to produce than a standard lp cover. If the album really WAS to be title Stone[[d) Love but was changed due to the public backlash regarding the single, there's no way it could have been released in Oct. At the same time basically as the single. just doesn't work out from a timeline perspective.

Album art has to be finalized well in advance of the print run.

Now it still might be true that Mary was hoping the front cover would be just the afro pic. But since the girls had little to no involvement unfortunately in the marketing of their work, they probably had no idea about the NW cover until it was out.

[sup_fan]

now if I was there and doing the lp, i would have:

1. shifted the release date just a little to go out in late Nov/early dec. closer to the holiday shopping period
2. i would have titled it Stone Love. with the correct spelling
3. i would have kept a gatefold cover but not pink. maybe beige/browns. similar to the colors on the 70s Anthology cover
4. inside the gatefold i would have done more than that stupid "exploding" artwork. i would have included more stage, candid and studio pics of the girls. maybe short paragraphs on each, sharing some facts, likes, fav things, etc. something for the public to read and look at, learn about the girls [[esp Jean).
5. i'm torn about the back cover art - i love the art as is. but wonder if the front was solely the afro pic, if the back would need to be something different. if so, i'd vote for:

16498

[midnightman]

I like that, sup_fan! Show the contrast.

[reese]

i've always wondered a bit about the whole story/legend/myth about the NWBLS album art

Both the lp and the single were released in october 70. As people here have mentioned earlier in this thread, the lp had a relatively complex die-cut cover. those require more time to produce than a standard lp cover. If the album really WAS to be title Stone[[d) Love but was changed due to the public backlash regarding the single, there's no way it could have been released in Oct. At the same time basically as the single. just doesn't work out from a timeline perspective.

Album art has to be finalized well in advance of the print run.

Now it still might be true that Mary was hoping the front cover would be just the afro pic. But since the girls had little to no involvement unfortunately in the marketing of their work, they probably had no idea about the NW cover until it was out.

I have to admit that I never understood the supposed big deal over the cover. While I do love the afros and sweater photos, I think the pink cover with all of the photos as well as the title NWBLS is just fine. It certainly didn't turn me off from buying the album. Just knowing that it was by one of my favorite groups was enough for me. Also, I believe my copy had a big sticker on it saying "this album features the hit single STONED LOVE" or something like that.

[marv2]

Someone had the right idea when it came to designing this foreign market picture sleeve:

16499

[marv2]

The only thing I would have changed about this picture sleeve is putting the company logo and the B-side title "Shine on Me" on the back of the sleeve. The less on the front, the better.

[marv2]

I don't know where this cover art came from, but it is on the right track. I would have made this the front cover, minuse the track listing etc:

16500

[sup_fan]

I have to admit that I never understood the supposed big deal over the cover. While I do love the afros and sweater photos, I think the pink cover with all of the photos as well as the title NWBLS is just fine. It certainly didn't turn me off from buying the album. Just knowing that it was by one of my favorite groups was enough for me. Also, I believe my copy had a big sticker on it saying "this album features the hit single STONED LOVE" or something like that.

i think the concern was that it was a bit to girly and sparkly looking as opposed to hip and relevant. cutesy and teeny bopper as opposed to mature and now

for a superstar group AND for having the full album version of Stoned Love, to only chart at Pop 68 and R&B 12 is a very poor showing. now part of this is certainly due to being released nearly at same time as Mag 7. plus during the past 12 months they'd released On Broadway, Cream, GH3, Farewell, RO and Mag 7. just too many albums

[kenneth]

a guy called Michael Ochs. Getty acquired the archives of his work when he died


Actually, that's not correct. Ochs is an archivist and collector of photographs, but not the photographer. He is often credited because he owns the copyrights to the photos.

He's still living, but he sold his archive to Getty Images in 2007, according to Wiki.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Ochs

[reese]

Are you sure of that? For some reason I always thought Michael Ochs was responsible for keeping and cataloging copyrighted images. I never knew he was an actual photographer. It makes sense, I guess.

I don't have the NWBLS album in front of me. But the name Larry Raphael is coming to my mind as the photographer.

In any event, from what I understand, Michael Ochs wasn't a photographer. He collected many photos over the years and quite often, people went to him when they wanted photos for their books, albums, etc. I remember seeing an interesting profile on him on Evening Magazine.

[kenneth]

Thanks Reese. I edited my original post after looking Ochs up in Wikipedia.

[reese]

i think the concern was that it was a bit to girly and sparkly looking as opposed to hip and relevant. cutesy and teeny bopper as opposed to mature and now

for a superstar group AND for having the full album version of Stoned Love, to only chart at Pop 68 and R&B 12 is a very poor showing. now part of this is certainly due to being released nearly at same time as Mag 7. plus during the past 12 months they'd released On Broadway, Cream, GH3, Farewell, RO and Mag 7. just too many albums

Diana suffered from that as well, with EVERYTHING IS EVERYTHING being released while her debut was still selling. And released without a single for almost a year!

Perhaps NEW WAYS might have done better if they had released another single from it. Most of the girls' best selling albums from the 60s usually had at least two hits. But RIVER DEEP... came out and then I guess attention switched to that.

[marv2]

Actually, that's not correct. Ochs is an archivist and collector of photographs, but not the photographer. He is often credited because he owns the copyrights to the photos.

He's still living, but he sold his archive to Getty Images in 2007, according to Wiki.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Ochs

That is what I thought in regards to Michael Ochs.

[sup_fan]

yeah in 1970 motown was all about pushing out content. and chart performance can definitely be deceiving

Bayou on here has shared in the past some really interesting insights around chart position vs sales. Sometimes they're aligned but not always. some of the biggest selling motown songs didn't necessarily go to #1 but lasted a LONG time in the teens or top 40. whereas a lot of the Sup singles bulleted to #1 and then plummeted.

It would be interesting to see how long RO, NW or Touch stayed on the overall charts versus just their peak positions. Maybe motown sort of knew that they could count on top lps to linger for XX weeks and continue to sell. or that the cost/benefit of two albums being released on top of one another might dilute their chart positions but end up selling more total copies and therefore more revenue.


For instance [[and i'm just making these numbers up)
Mag 7 sells 100,000, charts poorly
new Ways sells 100,000, charts poorly

vs

New Ways selling 190,000 charting fairly well

you can see that in the end they still sold 10K more. if for no other reason than super fans would by both. That's why motown would often include different takes or versions of songs on lp vs single. make collectors and fans buy both.

[sup_fan]

Actually, that's not correct. Ochs is an archivist and collector of photographs, but not the photographer. He is often credited because he owns the copyrights to the photos.

He's still living, but he sold his archive to Getty Images in 2007, according to Wiki.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Ochs

anyone have the lp sitting around? or the Jean Terrell box set? usually its listed in the liner notes

[waynesville]

Actually, that's not correct. Ochs is an archivist and collector of photographs, but not the photographer. He is often credited because he owns the copyrights to the photos.

He's still living, but he sold his archive to Getty Images in 2007, according to Wiki.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Ochs

Wow, I didn't know that at all. Thanks. That explains why Getty didn't have a negative which would have given me the image I so wanted.

[marv2]

yeah in 1970 motown was all about pushing out content. and chart performance can definitely be deceiving

Bayou on here has shared in the past some really interesting insights around chart position vs sales. Sometimes they're aligned but not always. some of the biggest selling motown songs didn't necessarily go to #1 but lasted a LONG time in the teens or top 40. whereas a lot of the Sup singles bulleted to #1 and then plummeted.

It would be interesting to see how long RO, NW or Touch stayed on the overall charts versus just their peak positions. Maybe motown sort of knew that they could count on top lps to linger for XX weeks and continue to sell. or that the cost/benefit of two albums being released on top of one another might dilute their chart positions but end up selling more total copies and therefore more revenue.


For instance [[and i'm just making these numbers up)
Mag 7 sells 100,000, charts poorly
new Ways sells 100,000, charts poorly

vs

New Ways selling 190,000 charting fairly well

you can see that in the end they still sold 10K more. if for no other reason than super fans would by both. That's why motown would often include different takes or versions of songs on lp vs single. make collectors and fans buy both.

I remember hearing that "Stoned Love" stayed on the charts for something like 14 weeks , which was a considerable amount of time in those days when Top 40 radio still ruled.

[kenneth]

Wow, I didn't know that at all. Thanks. That explains why Getty didn't have a negative which would have given me the image I so wanted.

He must have owned a ton of material. I would think that he usually did own the negatives, though; otherwise, it would be difficult to maintain the value of his archives. Maybe for this photo the negative just couldn't be found for some reason.

Almost every book you open about music or show business in general includes giving him credit for many photos. He must have been a visionary to anticipate that all these images would increase in value. I wonder what he sold his archives to Getty for!

[sup_fan]

I remember hearing that "Stoned Love" stayed on the charts for something like 14 weeks , which was a considerable amount of time in those days when Top 40 radio still ruled.

yes i've heard that too. and i've heard it's one of the biggest selling Sup singles. maybe not now with 40+ years passing and people downloading songs. But within their original runs, Stoned sold among the very top of Sup songs.

[detmotownguy]

Perfect cover. The ladies look great.

[detmotownguy]

I don't know where this cover art came from, but it is on the right track. I would have made this the front cover, minuse the track listing etc:

16500

Perfect cover. The ladies look great.

[daviddh]

Love this artwork ...it works for me..now if only we can get an expanded edition or 70s lost n found

[TomatoTom123]

It’s a great picture!!