Did any of Flo Ballards go into show business and do they receive any royalties?

[TNSUN]

Also, is there a Florence Ballard Fan Club, managed by her daughters?

[jobeterob]

There definitely is something on Facebook if you go looking

No royalties but they wouldn’t get much these days anyway

[marv2]

Yeah, Appleton is a rapper:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_azWhG-RyaI

[marv2]

Here's another one of his cuts:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rXInHDY9BKI

[luke]

A few thousand a year would be nice for anybody. I don’t understand why an attorney doesn’t take on A Ballard claim.

[jobeterob]

A few thousand a year would be nice for anybody. I don’t understand why an attorney doesn’t take on A Ballard claim.

For a starter, even if she had a valid claim that she didn't sign away, she has been dead 43 years and the claims would be statute barred.

[RanRan79]

I have to imagine that Flo's children have pursued the idea of securing royalties for themselves and most likely found that they have no recourse. Flo's release agreement with Motown was legally binding. She signed her rights to royalties away. I really don't think the girls have a legal legit claim to any royalty money. The only thing I could see them reaping the benefits of is any use of their mother's likeness, and I'm not familiar with exactly how that works in the legal sense.

Now morally, I think it's obvious that somebody should've reinstated Flo's rights to royalties the minute it made the rounds of the Motown circle that Flo's daughters were in a bad financial situation back in the 90s. I know I shouldn't be, but I'm always amazed at the lack of people's interest in doing the right thing.

[detmotownguy]

I have to imagine that Flo's children have pursued the idea of securing royalties for themselves and most likely found that they have no recourse. Flo's release agreement with Motown was legally binding. She signed her rights to royalties away. I really don't think the girls have a legal legit claim to any royalty money. The only thing I could see them reaping the benefits of is any use of their mother's likeness, and I'm not familiar with exactly how that works in the legal sense.

Now morally, I think it's obvious that somebody should've reinstated Flo's rights to royalties the minute it made the rounds of the Motown circle that Flo's daughters were in a bad financial situation back in the 90s. I know I shouldn't be, but I'm always amazed at the lack of people's interest in doing the right thing.
Good point......I do not understand the legalities of the likeness issue. The album covers in Dreamgirls alone are a complete ripoff of the original artwork. I have heard that as long as something is 10% different than the original there isn't a prob. I think the Dreamgirls movie/play was plagiarism. To me is wasn't just a girl group deal, but the Sups story was changed a bit for the "Flo/Effie" Character.

[Circa 1824]

What world are you living in?

“I think it's obvious that somebody should've reinstated Flo's rights to royalties the minute it made the rounds of the Motown circle that Flo's daughters were in a bad financial situation back in the 90s.”

[marv2]

What world are you living in?

“I think it's obvious that somebody should've reinstated Flo's rights to royalties the minute it made the rounds of the Motown circle that Flo's daughters were in a bad financial situation back in the 90s.”

An evil, demonic one?

[jobeterob]

What world are you living in?

“I think it's obvious that somebody should've reinstated Flo's rights to royalties the minute it made the rounds of the Motown circle that Flo's daughters were in a bad financial situation back in the 90s.”

Yes the Directors on the Universal Board who owe a fiduciary duty to the shareholders of the company and who’ve never heard of Florence Ballard or have a clue what her voice sounded like - they definitely would give away money

[gman]

I get tired of the younger generation's over victimizing of Flo, and believing Dreamgirls is the Gospel...Florence punched her own ticket out of the group. Her talent and fan base appeal wasn't going to be taken into much consideration weighing on the problems and risk factors she was incorporating into the group. Being un-cooperative, disrespecting and challenging the big boss and making trouble for the top earner will get you bounced WITHOUT a 2nd chance in most organizations. It was the company's flagship act, and BIG business. When she signed away royalty payments, that was it, legally, for that very unfortunate issue. She was, however, wronged by not being able to identify and promote herself as a Supreme. Perhaps her behavior and seemingly unprofessional ways would still be considered a risk to the groups reputation....and it was undeterminable if she'd be able to "get a grip" at the time. But there should have been a 2 year limitation to her not being able to promote herself as a former group member.

[RanRan79]

Good point......I do not understand the legalities of the likeness issue. The album covers in Dreamgirls alone are a complete ripoff of the original artwork. I have heard that as long as something is 10% different than the original there isn't a prob. I think the Dreamgirls movie/play was plagiarism. To me is wasn't just a girl group deal, but the Sups story was changed a bit for the "Flo/Effie" Character.

I don't think Flo's girls would have a case against Dreamgirls. That might have been a general Motown issue. I was referring to anything that uses Flo's image at all, like any products being created and sold with her photo on it, be it alone or with the Supremes. Again, I'm not sure how that works legally, particularly with official merch from Motown, but I do think it's a bit shady when I see people selling products over the net with the Supremes emblazoned on the product knowing that in all likelihood the Supremes are not being compensated, if they have a legal right to compensation. Maybe one of our legal eagles can help out with this understanding.

[RanRan79]

Yes the Directors on the Universal Board who owe a fiduciary duty to the shareholders of the company and who’ve never heard of Florence Ballard or have a clue what her voice sounded like - they definitely would give away money

Rob I call bullshit on your snarky response to what I said. Now someone correct me if I'm wrong, but even though Gordy sold Motown, I assume he did not sign away his rights to royalties. And assuming that when Flo signed away her rights to hers, those royalties went into Gordy's account, which means that any monies of Flo's share of Supreme royalties is being banked by Gordy. Now mind you this is all assumption on my part. It's possible the royalties were diverted elsewhere immediately, or maybe Gordy gambled them away years later. But keeping with this assumption and my ending thought of people doing what is morally right, in my mind I think that when Gordy heard that Florence's daughters were in a bad spot back in the 1990s that he might have- if he had the heart to do so- thought "Let me reinstate Florence's royalties so that her daughters may have a better financial position, since I'm reaping millions every year from my Motown legacy". Legally he didn't have to do anything, but my statement was about morality.

I wouldn't have thought you were one of those people I was referring to at the end of my original post. Welcome to Trump's America everybody, where the right thing doesn't even cross our minds.

[RanRan79]

I get tired of the younger generation's over victimizing of Flo, and believing Dreamgirls is the Gospel...Florence punched her own ticket out of the group. Her talent and fan base appeal wasn't going to be taken into much consideration weighing on the problems and risk factors she was incorporating into the group. Being un-cooperative, disrespecting and challenging the big boss and making trouble for the top earner will get you bounced WITHOUT a 2nd chance in most organizations. It was the company's flagship act, and BIG business. When she signed away royalty payments, that was it, legally, for that very unfortunate issue. She was, however, wronged by not being able to identify and promote herself as a Supreme. Perhaps her behavior and seemingly unprofessional ways would still be considered a risk to the groups reputation....and it was undeterminable if she'd be able to "get a grip" at the time. But there should have been a 2 year limitation to her not being able to promote herself as a former group member.

As usual, I counter your argument regarding Flo's behavior and how it relates to her job with Berry's behavior and how it related to his. Can you imagine the HR problem that Gordy might have in any other organization with the boss hurling insults? Of course you can. So if we're going to finger point, let's use all available fingers.

Now to the broader point, I think most thinking people get why the decision was ultimately made to fire Florence. I also think most thinking people can figure out how the entire situation could've been avoided in the first place, but for the sake of this conversation we'll leave that for another discussion. Speaking for myself, I get the rationale of firing Florence and ultimately, once things got out of control, it made good business sense to do so and it wasn't taken lightly. What isn't understandable, outside of understanding that what followed was personal and all about greed, is that the decision was made to screw this woman out of her royalties and then on top of that, forbid her to publicize her recent work history. There is nothing ethical about those two things.

Barring Flo for any amount of time, two years or forever, from promoting herself as a Supreme had no bearing whatsoever on her ability to tell the world her side of the Supremes story. All it did was prevent her from using her connection with the Supremes as a promotional tool. For instance, her publicist couldn't send out press releases utilizing the connection nor would she ever be able to bill herself as "Flo Ballard of the Supremes". This of course did not prevent the press from bringing it up and it didn't stop Flo from talking about it. But it certainly hindered her from capitalizing fully off of it, though it's important to point out that it was not a death sentence for her career, especially when examining her solo go in totality. There were far bigger non Motown problems with that. But it was intended to impede her progress, and that was nasty on Gordy's part. It was punitive.

Flo was a victim of Gordy's greed and his ability to make business personal. Whether the "younger generation" overstates this or not is up for someone else's debate.

[marv2]

I don't think Flo's girls would have a case against Dreamgirls. That might have been a general Motown issue. I was referring to anything that uses Flo's image at all, like any products being created and sold with her photo on it, be it alone or with the Supremes. Again, I'm not sure how that works legally, particularly with official merch from Motown, but I do think it's a bit shady when I see people selling products over the net with the Supremes emblazoned on the product knowing that in all likelihood the Supremes are not being compensated, if they have a legal right to compensation. Maybe one of our legal eagles can help out with this understanding.

There have been songs that included Florence Ballard's name and then there was the short story "You Know They Got a Hell of a Band", Stephen King, through the late disc jockey Alan Freed, includes Ballard as one of the deceased artists who performs in a town called "Rock and Roll Heaven". There have been documentaries and tele-bios made about Florence and the Supremes.
I am not sure if the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame gives or gave any type of financial assistance to inductees or their estates,but without them the Hall would be empty!

[marv2]

Although I do not know how much Florence's solo album sold once it was finally release, but I wonder where the royalties from it [[if any) went. The masters were destroyed in that Universal warehouse fire in 2008.

[sup_fan]

Motown is not a charity organization. there's no obligation for them to help out the descendants of a former employee who left on bad terms

1. Flo left the group partially from her own free will. she wanted out and so they put her out. yes there was blame to go all around. but her behavior definitely gave motown all the reason in the world to terminate her
2. flo foolishly didn't have legal counsel when she signed her first separation agreement
3. flo foolishly didn't find an entertainment lawyer for when she renegotiated her release
4. flo foolishly allowed others to manage her money and she also willingly provided financial support to a very large, extended family
5. flo was mentally unable to move on after the supremes and ABC. her mental decline wasn't really motown's fault. she's hardly the first person to be terminated from a job. yes it sucks but at some point you have to move on. she was never able to do that
6. poverty is often cyclical. after flo left the group and declined, she created an environment that would be challenging for a child to grow up and out of. Not blaming her for this. this happens unfortunately far too often. once in that environment, it's very hard to break free.

so the fact that Flo's children struggled as they became adults isn't shocking. sad and unfortunate but not shocking. Diana set up trusts for the girls and also helped financially when one had medical problems. Mary has been supportive of the girls. don't know if Berry has had any involvement - there have been rumors over the years that he provided the money for when Flo started to get back on her feet in 75, that he paid for the funeral. who knows - perhaps he's made some financial assistance.

But Flo's kids are adults. they have also made their own choices and their own lives. for better or worse. Did they have singing talents? or musical talent? or other gifts? that's for them to know and for them to pursue.

[RanRan79]

Oh my gosh...this conversation is always so exasperating because people keep reading too much into the details. I didn't say Motown was a charity organization or had a legal obligation to do anything. I'm sorry, but am I the only one that thinks about certain issues on a morality level? Diana Ross had no obligation to Florence or her children either, but for some reason she felt the need to set up a trust for them. Sometimes doing a good deed is just the right thing to do. Flo's daughters don't seem to beg on TV for help. I think they all have jobs and raising families and carrying on with their lives as normal every day folks who just happened to have a famous mother. But in the 90s, like when they got evicted from the home they were living in, to see that and shrug knowing that they could've paid rent with royalty money that would've rightfully been theirs after their mother's passing, that's just weird to me.

Again, just in case folks missed it the first 12 times, I am not talking about anyone being legally obligated to do a damn thing. Folks weren't legally obligated to contribute to Mary Wells' medical bills, but they did it anyway. I'm talking about folks being just. It sucks that there are people benefiting from Flo's hard work while her daughters get nothing from it. Gordy wouldn't stand for his children being in that situation, so why shouldn't the conversation focus on Flo's children being similarly considered?

[thanxal]

Oh Ran, you're so silly...

Oh my gosh...this conversation is always so exasperating because people keep reading too much into the details. I didn't say Motown was a charity organization or had a legal obligation to do anything.

You think people read instead of going straight to their preconceived notions?


I'm sorry, but am I the only one that thinks about certain issues on a morality level?

And what was one of the first songs Berry Gordy co-wrote? "Morality, That's What I Want"? Is that the exact title?


Sometimes doing a good deed is just the right thing to do.
Have you seen who the PЯЗsideиT of the United States is right now?


Again, just in case folks missed it the first 12 times,
Forum rules clearly state something must be stated 13 times for people to pay attention.


I'm talking about folks being just. Justice in this country only exists for the rich. See point 3 above.

Flo shoulda known all this stuff even though she was never taught anything about business, there was active work to hide Supremes income, she came from a terribly underprivileged background, and she died. Companies have every right to exploit people as much as they can, alive or dead. Welcome to Corporate America.

[PeaceNHarmony]

Motown is not a charity organization. there's no obligation for them to help out the descendants of a former employee who left on bad terms

1. Flo left the group partially from her own free will. she wanted out and so they put her out. yes there was blame to go all around. but her behavior definitely gave motown all the reason in the world to terminate her
2. flo foolishly didn't have legal counsel when she signed her first separation agreement
3. flo foolishly didn't find an entertainment lawyer for when she renegotiated her release
4. flo foolishly allowed others to manage her money and she also willingly provided financial support to a very large, extended family
5. flo was mentally unable to move on after the supremes and ABC. her mental decline wasn't really motown's fault. she's hardly the first person to be terminated from a job. yes it sucks but at some point you have to move on. she was never able to do that
6. poverty is often cyclical. after flo left the group and declined, she created an environment that would be challenging for a child to grow up and out of. Not blaming her for this. this happens unfortunately far too often. once in that environment, it's very hard to break free.

so the fact that Flo's children struggled as they became adults isn't shocking. sad and unfortunate but not shocking. Diana set up trusts for the girls and also helped financially when one had medical problems. Mary has been supportive of the girls. don't know if Berry has had any involvement - there have been rumors over the years that he provided the money for when Flo started to get back on her feet in 75, that he paid for the funeral. who knows - perhaps he's made some financial assistance.

But Flo's kids are adults. they have also made their own choices and their own lives. for better or worse. Did they have singing talents? or musical talent? or other gifts? that's for them to know and for them to pursue.Perfectly stated all around. I may have used the adverb 'disingenuously' in place of 'foolishly' but that would be my own editorial choice. If Florence's daughters need jobs maybe Mary can hire them as her backup singers, tour managers, etc? We keep hearing here about how phenomenally successful Mary is, so this would be a natural fit.

[gman]

Had Flo left on her own, wouldn't she be in violation of her contract?

[PeaceNHarmony]

Had Flo left on her own, wouldn't she be in violation of her contract?That would depend upon the exact terms of her contract and the willingness of both parties to dissolve the contract. J-Rob, care to comment?

[blackguy69]

Well apparently mary still is since you’re still checking for her.
Perfectly stated all around. I may have used the adverb 'disingenuously' in place of 'foolishly' but that would be my own editorial choice. If Florence's daughters need jobs maybe Mary can hire them as her backup singers, tour managers, etc? We keep hearing here about how phenomenally successful Mary is, so this would be a natural fit.

[jobeterob]

Rob I call bullshit on your snarky response to what I said. Now someone correct me if I'm wrong, but even though Gordy sold Motown, I assume he did not sign away his rights to royalties. And assuming that when Flo signed away her rights to hers, those royalties went into Gordy's account, which means that any monies of Flo's share of Supreme royalties is being banked by Gordy. Now mind you this is all assumption on my part. It's possible the royalties were diverted elsewhere immediately, or maybe Gordy gambled them away years later. But keeping with this assumption and my ending thought of people doing what is morally right, in my mind I think that when Gordy heard that Florence's daughters were in a bad spot back in the 1990s that he might have- if he had the heart to do so- thought "Let me reinstate Florence's royalties so that her daughters may have a better financial position, since I'm reaping millions every year from my Motown legacy". Legally he didn't have to do anything, but my statement was about morality.

I wouldn't have thought you were one of those people I was referring to at the end of my original post. Welcome to Trump's America everybody, where the right thing doesn't even cross our minds.

I was responding generally, not to you.

When Florence signed her royalties away, any money saved went to Motown Record Corporation. It's shareholders were Berry and his family I gather, maybe a few others.

But all of their shares are gone - Motown is owned by the Universal Company. I imagine it's a public company any of us can buy shares in. It has a CEO. It has a Board of Directors. They are responsible to the shareholders of Universal and I bet there are pension funds that own some shares and a bunch of rich people. The Board is there to make money for the shareholders.

They are not going to give away royalties to anyone. The CEO would be making that decision and he'd never do it. And they are too busy trying to find new areas to market into because as we see, they put nothing into Expanded Motown Editions. The royalties on Motown music aren't so much anymore.

Way way back, R. Dean Taylor was on here and he said the money he got from Love Child was next to nothing; it was divided between 27 different people and just didn't amount to much. And that was before CDs died.

I recall Diana Ross set up some money for Florence's children; maybe others tried or did.

But the children have no claim to anything from Berry Gordy, Motown, or Universal. And Universal owns everything. And they would never set a precedent by giving it away.

P.S. Regarding Flo leaving of her own volition, I guess Motown would have been thrilled if she had and then she would have got absolutely nothing; but sure, it would depend on her contract. If Diana had bailed on Motown and gone to Columbia, they sure would have sued her and asked for injunctions to bar recording etc. But Flo wasn't Diana.

[PeaceNHarmony]

I was responding generally, not to you.

When Florence signed her royalties away, any money saved went to Motown Record Corporation. It's shareholders were Berry and his family I gather, maybe a few others.

But all of their shares are gone - Motown is owned by the Universal Company. I imagine it's a public company any of us can buy shares in. It has a CEO. It has a Board of Directors. They are responsible to the shareholders of Universal and I bet there are pension funds that own some shares and a bunch of rich people. The Board is there to make money for the shareholders.

They are not going to give away royalties to anyone. The CEO would be making that decision and he'd never do it. And they are too busy trying to find new areas to market into because as we see, they put nothing into Expanded Motown Editions. The royalties on Motown music aren't so much anymore.

Way way back, R. Dean Taylor was on here and he said the money he got from Love Child was next to nothing; it was divided between 27 different people and just didn't amount to much. And that was before CDs died.

I recall Diana Ross set up some money for Florence's children; maybe others tried or did.

But the children have no claim to anything from Berry Gordy, Motown, or Universal. And Universal owns everything. And they would never set a precedent by giving it away.

P.S. Regarding Flo leaving of her own volition, I guess Motown would have been thrilled if she had and then she would have got absolutely nothing; but sure, it would depend on her contract. If Diana had bailed on Motown and gone to Columbia, they sure would have sued her and asked for injunctions to bar recording etc. But Flo wasn't Diana.Thanks for the attorney-ese talk, JRob - I knew you would have real info & expertise to offer. It's a lovely thought that any business would give life-long royalties to family members of performers on 50+ year-old product, but is disingenuous at best. The lesson to be learned from Florence Ballard is, and always has been: READ WHAT YOU SIGN. As to familial loyalty, see: Carly Simon and Simon & Schuster. ps: Have to wonder ... why does no one ask about royalties for the children of David Ruffin? Hmmm ...

[jobeterob]

What I believe is remarkable about Motown, Berry and the Gordy’s, Diana, Smokey and Stevie is that they have helped many people who were with Motown - they did help Flo, and Mary Wells and Diana did help Mary Wilson. And I’ve seen an article about the number of requests Stevie gets for financial assistance.

It was a family and not just a public company who’s only goal was profit.

[RanRan79]

Oh Ran, you're so silly...


You think people read instead of going straight to their preconceived notions?



And what was one of the first songs Berry Gordy co-wrote? "Morality, That's What I Want"? Is that the exact title?


Have you seen who the PЯЗsideиT of the United States is right now?


Forum rules clearly state something must be stated 13 times for people to pay attention.

Justice in this country only exists for the rich. See point 3 above.

Flo shoulda known all this stuff even though she was never taught anything about business, there was active work to hide Supremes income, she came from a terribly underprivileged background, and she died. Companies have every right to exploit people as much as they can, alive or dead. Welcome to Corporate America.

There's nothing here for me to argue with Thanx. A spot on post.

[RanRan79]

Had Flo left on her own, wouldn't she be in violation of her contract?

If she quit and left the group in a bind, yeah she would've been in breech of contract, I imagine.

[RanRan79]

I was responding generally, not to you.

When Florence signed her royalties away, any money saved went to Motown Record Corporation. It's shareholders were Berry and his family I gather, maybe a few others.

But all of their shares are gone - Motown is owned by the Universal Company. I imagine it's a public company any of us can buy shares in. It has a CEO. It has a Board of Directors. They are responsible to the shareholders of Universal and I bet there are pension funds that own some shares and a bunch of rich people. The Board is there to make money for the shareholders.

They are not going to give away royalties to anyone. The CEO would be making that decision and he'd never do it. And they are too busy trying to find new areas to market into because as we see, they put nothing into Expanded Motown Editions. The royalties on Motown music aren't so much anymore.

Way way back, R. Dean Taylor was on here and he said the money he got from Love Child was next to nothing; it was divided between 27 different people and just didn't amount to much. And that was before CDs died.

I recall Diana Ross set up some money for Florence's children; maybe others tried or did.

But the children have no claim to anything from Berry Gordy, Motown, or Universal. And Universal owns everything. And they would never set a precedent by giving it away.

P.S. Regarding Flo leaving of her own volition, I guess Motown would have been thrilled if she had and then she would have got absolutely nothing; but sure, it would depend on her contract. If Diana had bailed on Motown and gone to Columbia, they sure would have sued her and asked for injunctions to bar recording etc. But Flo wasn't Diana.

A lot of this makes sense. Like I said before, my thought was based on an assumption that Gordy still receives royalties from the royalties signed away from other artists. If he doesn't, then there's no conversation about reinstating royalties. My argument hinged on Gordy still receiving Flo's portion of royalties and had nothing to do with anonymous Universal execs with no connection to Florence or her family. That was not something introduced in this conversation by me.

[RanRan79]

P.S. Regarding Flo leaving of her own volition, I guess Motown would have been thrilled if she had and then she would have got absolutely nothing; but sure, it would depend on her contract. If Diana had bailed on Motown and gone to Columbia, they sure would have sued her and asked for injunctions to bar recording etc. But Flo wasn't Diana.

If Gordy didn't bar Mary Wells or any other high profile act that left the company from recording again, he wouldn't have done so to Diana. And I would be shocked if he could legally bar anyone from recording elsewhere after leaving. Wasn't that the point of tying some artists up in lengthy contracts even though there was clearly no desire from the label to churn out tons of music for said artists during their tenure?

[RanRan79]

What I believe is remarkable about Motown, Berry and the Gordy’s, Diana, Smokey and Stevie is that they have helped many people who were with Motown - they did help Flo, and Mary Wells and Diana did help Mary Wilson. And I’ve seen an article about the number of requests Stevie gets for financial assistance.

It was a family and not just a public company who’s only goal was profit.

I think the family thing is a myth. I think what all the Motowners feel is a bond through the experience of Motown in the golden age. So even though you might have someone like Martha Reeves who clearly isn't the biggest fan of Diana Ross, if Diana were to need her, I bet Martha would be there. I'm sure Diana is sick and tired of Gladys Knight's tired stories about what Diana supposedly did to her a million years ago, but if Gladys were in need, Diana would surely help. But family? Nah. Motown, as is constantly pointed out in threads like this, was a business first. You can't "yank" my royalties, write books about my dirty laundry, or impede my quest for success and then consider yourself family.

On second thought, this is exactly how some families operate, so maybe you have a point.:p

[franjoy56]

Had Flo left on her own, wouldn't she be in violation of her contract?

She did not leave on her own gordy fired her on july 1. But she could have claimed her spot if she wanted to b ecause she was told his firing was not binding but she did not fight it. So she probably wantrd out because of all the attention going t diana ross and flo was sick o f it mary was able to tolerate it flo being a lead singer was not. I am from the old school and i think li k e the young ppl do. Ross grandstanding tore t heart out of the supremes and flos drinking added to t pot

[franjoy56]

Had Flo left on her own, wouldn't she be in violation of her contract?

She did not leave on her own gordy fired her on july 1. But she could have claimed her spot if she wanted to b ecause she was told his firing was not binding but she did not fight it. So she probably wantrd out because of all the attention going t diana ross and flo was sick o f it mary was able to tolerate it flo being a lead singer was not. I am from the old school and i think li k e the young ppl do. Ross grandstanding tore t heart out of the supremes and flos drinking added to t pot

[thanxal]

On second thought, this is exactly how some families operate, so maybe you have a point.:p
Does this mean I get to replace my siblings with the Andantes? Pretty please?

[sup_fan]

P.S. Regarding Flo leaving of her own volition, I guess Motown would have been thrilled if she had and then she would have got absolutely nothing; but sure, it would depend on her contract. If Diana had bailed on Motown and gone to Columbia, they sure would have sued her and asked for injunctions to bar recording etc. But Flo wasn't Diana.

Exactly David Ruffin tried to leave and Motown was able to hold him to his contract. he made a big stink about it in the media and of course, this doomed his solo career

[RanRan79]

She did not leave on her own gordy fired her on july 1. But she could have claimed her spot if she wanted to b ecause she was told his firing was not binding but she did not fight it. So she probably wantrd out because of all the attention going t diana ross and flo was sick o f it mary was able to tolerate it flo being a lead singer was not. I am from the old school and i think li k e the young ppl do. Ross grandstanding tore t heart out of the supremes and flos drinking added to t pot

Gman wasn't suggesting Flo wasn't fired, he was wondering about what would happen had Flo simply quit.

Flo had no real power as a Supreme. None of them did. If Gordy had wanted to ditch all three of them and replaced them with someone else, he could have, just as he did with Flo. And had he done so, he would've had to settle with each of them the way that he did with Flo. But ultimately Gordy held all the power. So there was nothing for Flo to reclaim as all the Supremes spots technically belonged to Berry. Diana had a fragile power that hinged on her place as lead singer and her place in Berry's master plan, as well as the sexual/love relationship she shared with him. The biggest power Flo and Mary had was in both being extremely popular and in the Supremes being introduced to the world as three equal partners and the public viewing them that way, more or less. Thus it made it difficult for Gordy to willy nilly swap Supremes, which is why firing Florence came after a particularly bad spell for her professionalism the first time, and supposedly the second time, and wasn't taken lightly. The biggest power the group had as a collective was in standing together against Berry's shenanigans, but they imploded. Each one contributed to this, but if anyone "tore [[the) heart out" of the group, it was Gordy, not Diana.

[marv2]

When Berry Gordy fired Florence Ballard from the Supremes, she was still under contract to Motown. I know if they had a way of voiding that contract, but it was later learned that Motown offered to record her as a solo act ala David Ruffin. If that were true, I am certain, it would have been just to avoid a lawsuit and nothing would have been released on Florence and definitely she would not have been promoted.

[RanRan79]

Does this mean I get to replace my siblings with the Andantes? Pretty please?

Since music history has taught us that the Andantes only replaced irrelevant people, if irrelevancy describes your siblings, I'm sure the Andantes could be persuaded to stand in during the holidays at least. After all, they once stood in for a whole holiday album recording, so I've been told.

[marv2]

Gman wasn't suggesting Flo wasn't fired, he was wondering about what would happen had Flo simply quit.

Flo had no real power as a Supreme. None of them did. If Gordy had wanted to ditch all three of them and replaced them with someone else, he could have, just as he did with Flo. And had he done so, he would've had to settle with each of them the way that he did with Flo. But ultimately Gordy held all the power. So there was nothing for Flo to reclaim as all the Supremes spots technically belonged to Berry. Diana had a fragile power that hinged on her place as lead singer and her place in Berry's master plan, as well as the sexual/love relationship she shared with him. The biggest power Flo and Mary had was in both being extremely popular and in the Supremes being introduced to the world as three equal partners and the public viewing them that way, more or less. Thus it made it difficult for Gordy to willy nilly swap Supremes, which is why firing Florence came after a particularly bad spell for her professionalism the first time, and supposedly the second time, and wasn't taken lightly. The biggest power the group had as a collective was in standing together against Berry's shenanigans, but they imploded. Each one contributed to this, but if anyone "tore [[the) heart out" of the group, it was Gordy, not Diana.

Had Mr. Gordy tried to ditch Mary and Flo and had they been older, more experienced, you would have had a huge mess like what happened with RTL! I know Mary would have fought it and went on every television show around to tell what the deal was.

Motown owned their name. This is why the could prevent Flo from using it in the promotion of her solo career. It is also why Mary Wilson fought so hard years later to get ownership. Motown was very shrewd with their contracts. They would not allow the artists to take them outside of the company's offices to be reviewed by lawyers. They had to sign them then and there!

[RanRan79]

When Berry Gordy fired Florence Ballard from the Supremes, she was still under contract to Motown. I know if they had a way of voiding that contract, but it was later learned that Motown offered to record her as a solo act ala David Ruffin. If that were true, I am certain, it would have been just to avoid a lawsuit and nothing would have been released on Florence and definitely she would not have been promoted.

Oh hell no, Motown wasn't going to release anything with Flo singing unless she was bringing up the background. That solo release offer was what I mentioned earlier, with Motown signing Flo to keep her tied up in a contract that would've prevented her from recording somewhere else. She probably would've gone into the studio to record some tracks which wouldn't see the light for 50 years [[and probably end up better than anything she did at ABC). The young-should've-been-business-savvy-at-24-Florence Ballard has been described as foolish with her business decisions, but one thing she surely got right was turning down that solo offer from Motown. If Gordy was the least bit interested in Florence as a solo singer, he would've promoted that while Flo was a Supreme. That solo offer was intended to do Flo dirty. But they were a family.:rolleyes:

[RanRan79]

Had Mr. Gordy tried to ditch Mary and Flo and had they been older, more experienced, you would have had a huge mess like what happened with RTL! I know Mary would have fought it and went on every television show around to tell what the deal was.

Motown owned their name. This is why the could prevent Flo from using it in the promotion of her solo career. It is also why Mary Wilson fought so hard years later to get ownership. Motown was very shrewd with their contracts. They would not allow the artists to take them outside of the company's offices to be reviewed by lawyers. They had to sign them then and there!

Pretty much everything Gordy did where his female artists is concerned, only worked because most of them were very young. Hell naw he wouldn't have gotten away with half the shit he did in the 60s with those same women in the 70s. Even Diana got to the point where she started telling Gordy to kiss her ass. At some point the ladies grow up and start asking questions and having enough life experience to stop falling for smooth talk like "I'll always take care of you". That's some master manipulator type shit there.

Remember Mary discovered that as of the mid 70s Motown didn't own the name. It had never been registered. I wonder if had Flo's suit against Motown gone forward in 1971, if this might have been discovered and Flo had a case for owning the name since she picked it.

[midnightman]

I always felt Berry in some ways manipulated and psychologically abused every original Supremes member... he didn't allow them to read their contracts, each member's parents were concerned about how Gordy was handling things, and he put them on a salary so they wouldn't complain too much about getting instant money that they would only get little of and have to split it four times initially and then three times. Sure took advantage of the more savvy Diana Ross by promising he was gonna make her a Streisand/Judy Garland type of multi-dimensional superstar but still left her and her two Supremes partners financially stranded.

[detmotownguy]

Pretty much everything Gordy did where his female artists is concerned, only worked because most of them were very young. Hell naw he wouldn't have gotten away with half the shit he did in the 60s with those same women in the 70s. Even Diana got to the point where she started telling Gordy to kiss her ass. At some point the ladies grow up and start asking questions and having enough life experience to stop falling for smooth talk like "I'll always take care of you". That's some master manipulator type shit there.

Remember Mary discovered that as of the mid 70s Motown didn't own the name. It had never been registered. I wonder if had Flo's suit against Motown gone forward in 1971, if this might have been discovered and Flo had a case for owning the name since she picked it.

In a sense it looks like some pimping going on. He basically owned the girls by controlling their money. Shit they basically paid their own way by being charged for damn near everything according to wht I have heard and read. I cant imagine anyone signing a contract wo a legal review. As Mary said, her mother could not read nor write which definitely worked in Motown's favor.

[jobeterob]

All the artists paid their own way - for sure. That's what they all did in those days and probably still do now.

[thanxal]

Since music history has taught us that the Andantes only replaced irrelevant people, if irrelevancy describes your siblings, I'm sure the Andantes could be persuaded to stand in during the holidays at least. After all, they once stood in for a whole holiday album recording, so I've been told.
Dreams DO come true here on Soulful Detroit.

[RanRan79]

In a sense it looks like some pimping going on. He basically owned the girls by controlling their money. Shit they basically paid their own way by being charged for damn near everything according to wht I have heard and read. I cant imagine anyone signing a contract wo a legal review. As Mary said, her mother could not read nor write which definitely worked in Motown's favor.

It has a pimp-esque quality to it, for sure. But that was the industry at that time. The Supremes were probably the rule and not the exception for women- or girls, as was the case when the Supremes signed their original contracts- in the industry. And Motown surely wasn't the only company that dealt in these shenanigans. Of course even men in the industry had their lack of business sense taken advantage of by unscrupulous recording companies.

[midnightman]

In a sense it looks like some pimping going on. He basically owned the girls by controlling their money. Shit they basically paid their own way by being charged for damn near everything according to wht I have heard and read. I cant imagine anyone signing a contract wo a legal review. As Mary said, her mother could not read nor write which definitely worked in Motown's favor.

Wasn't that the same with Lurlee?

I think Ernestine read it and tried to get Diana to turn it down...or something like that but Diana was like "no let me sign, please?"

Berry signed girls still in sophomore, junior and senior classes in high school [[save for Barbara, I guess, but she was still a minor at 18).

[marv2]

In a sense it looks like some pimping going on. He basically owned the girls by controlling their money. Shit they basically paid their own way by being charged for damn near everything according to wht I have heard and read. I cant imagine anyone signing a contract wo a legal review. As Mary said, her mother could not read nor write which definitely worked in Motown's favor.

DET, You know where John R. is right? Well that was where Berry Gordy ran his girls when he was a pimp! That was in the old days, it is nothing like that around there now.

[marv2]

Wasn't that the same with Lurlee?

I think Ernestine read it and tried to get Diana to turn it down...or something like that but Diana was like "no let me sign, please?"

Berry signed girls still in sophomore, junior and senior classes in high school [[save for Barbara, I guess, but she was still a minor at 18).

Mrs. Ballard could read, now whether or not she understood that legal document is another matter. Barbara Martin's mom didn't want her to be there. Freda and Scherrie Payne's mom refused to sign the contract for Freda. Had she done so, Freda would have been the first female solo artist on Motown. Ms. Farley [[Freda's mom) worked at the Gordy's grocery store, so she knew the Gordy's very well. A bit of trivia, Berry Gordy knew Scherrie before he'd ever met any of the original Supremes.

[marv2]

It has a pimp-esque quality to it, for sure. But that was the industry at that time. The Supremes were probably the rule and not the exception for women- or girls, as was the case when the Supremes signed their original contracts- in the industry. And Motown surely wasn't the only company that dealt in these shenanigans. Of course even men in the industry had their lack of business sense taken advantage of by unscrupulous recording companies.

Almost every Doo-Wop group that came out of New York City in the 1950s were severely ripped off!

[franjoy56]

Gordy may have tore t heart out of t supremes as u say and gave diana the key to to open t door wide open and she ran with it.

[marv2]

Oh hell no, Motown wasn't going to release anything with Flo singing unless she was bringing up the background. That solo release offer was what I mentioned earlier, with Motown signing Flo to keep her tied up in a contract that would've prevented her from recording somewhere else. She probably would've gone into the studio to record some tracks which wouldn't see the light for 50 years [[and probably end up better than anything she did at ABC). The young-should've-been-business-savvy-at-24-Florence Ballard has been described as foolish with her business decisions, but one thing she surely got right was turning down that solo offer from Motown. If Gordy was the least bit interested in Florence as a solo singer, he would've promoted that while Flo was a Supreme. That solo offer was intended to do Flo dirty. But they were a family.:rolleyes:

They weren't no damned family to Flo. Berry Gordy despised her and his girlfriend would pour gasoline on that fire. They [[Motown Management) use to accuse Gladys Knight of "poisoning" their artists because she would hip them to what they should have been receiving from the company. Things like annual audits etc. Well, Florence was a young woman that just loved to sing. She, like all the rest of them believed Mr. Gordy when he would tell them "don't you worry your pretty little head about business.....I will always take care of you." She was told for several years that money they were making from million sellers and all of those live concerts, tv appearances, etc etc was being invested for her in "stocks and bonds". She got $225.00 a week allowance once they became hit makers. When she/they want to purchase a home, they had to go to Motown to have the funds approved and released! Florence was not a business woman. She was a high school graduate [[which has been debated) from a poor family in the ghetto. She didn't know anything about contracts etc. None of them did!

[jobeterob]

It's nice that people still have feelings for Florence and her children but she gave up all rights 40 years ago and then attempted litigation over whether that could be challenged; after that Motown was out of it. And now all the ownership of what Diana Ross and/or the Supremes recorded is with some large conglomerate who could care less about any artists and few of the owners would know the name Florence Ballard.

If there is a nice moral and warm side to this, it is that at least Diana Ross and Berry Gordy provided some support to Florence and her family; and it appears that Florence's children have some kind of friendly relationship with Diana Ross and Mary Wilson.

[detmotownguy]

They weren't no damned family to Flo. Berry Gordy despised her and his girlfriend would pour gasoline on that fire. They [[Motown Management) use to accuse Gladys Knight of "poisoning" their artists because she would hip them to what they should have been receiving from the company. Things like annual audits etc. Well, Florence was a young woman that just loved to sing. She, like all the rest of them believed Mr. Gordy when he would tell them "don't you worry your pretty little head about business.....I will always take care of you." She was told for several years that money they were making from million sellers and all of those live concerts, tv appearances, etc etc was being invested for her in "stocks and bonds". She got $225.00 a week allowance once they became hit makers. When she/they want to purchase a home, they had to go to Motown to have the funds approved and released! Florence was not a business woman. She was a high school graduate [[which has been debated) from a poor family in the ghetto. She didn't know anything about contracts etc. None of them did!
Hi Marv. Not to digress from the seriousness of your posting, I just listened to TomPetty [[RIP) explaining how he was ripped off based on his contract. But Flo didn’t have a chance in hell. Berry knew what he was doing. Of course the argument is if it wasn't for Berry, these people would never had the opportunity to sing.

[marv2]

Hi Marv. Not to digress from the seriousness of your posting, I just listened to TomPetty [[RIP) explaining how he was ripped off based on his contract. But Flo didn’t have a chance in hell. Berry knew what he was doing. Of course the argument is if it wasn't for Berry, these people would never had the opportunity to sing.

Then you have this one arrogant dummy that always says that the 3-4 Motown artists and Berry Gordy that became wealthy are the only ones that deserved it!

[detmotownguy]

Then you have this one arrogant dummy that always says that the 3-4 Motown artists and Berry Gordy that became wealthy are the only ones that deserved it!
A class action suit might have Forced the books open to see what was going on. If the plaintiffs won that might have set some precedence for other crooked record companies. Back in the 80’s I remember Mary was asked what advice she would give wanna be performers- get a business education!

[marv2]

A class action suit might have Forced the books open to see what was going on. If the plaintiffs won that might have set some precedence for other crooked record companies. Back in the 80’s I remember Mary was asked what advice she would give wanna be performers- get a business education!

Right, and to this very day music artists from the 50s, 60s, 70s etc., are still fighting to get paid! Not so much from the record companies [[many of which has folded or gone out of business), but from a number of sources that still play and make money off of their work. I wonder now if the Music Modernization Act will be of benefit to the Florence Ballard Estate since it has nothing to do with any royalties agreement she signed with Motown Records.

[midnightman]

It's nice that people still have feelings for Florence and her children but she gave up all rights 40 years ago and then attempted litigation over whether that could be challenged; after that Motown was out of it. And now all the ownership of what Diana Ross and/or the Supremes recorded is with some large conglomerate who could care less about any artists and few of the owners would know the name Florence Ballard.

If there is a nice moral and warm side to this, it is that at least Diana Ross and Berry Gordy provided some support to Florence and her family; and it appears that Florence's children have some kind of friendly relationship with Diana Ross and Mary Wilson.

That's pretty much all that can be said at this point.

[marv2]

Gordy may have tore t heart out of t supremes as u say and gave diana the key to to open t door wide open and she ran with it.

True, but history is going to have the final word on this drama.......

[jobeterob]

That's pretty much all that can be said at this point.

Except by Whiner Marv

[marv2]

Here is a report on Flo's daughters from local Detroit news in 1994:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hDyWaM8xrnE

[marv2]

and in 2007, things do not look like that had gotten better:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EAseG032Q-M&t=107s

[detmotownguy]

DET, You know where John R. is right? Well that was where Berry Gordy ran his girls when he was a pimp! That was in the old days, it is nothing like that around there now.
Marv was that at John R and Brush? Thanks.

[detmotownguy]

and in 2007, things do not look like that had gotten better:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EAseG032Q-M&t=107s
Why does the media say she died in poverty when we know, unless not true, she won a lawsuit and bought a house and a new car. Flo was also thinking about getting back in the business. Seems to be a lot of misinformation about the end of her life. Thanks for posting.

[midnightman]

I'm so tired of that narrative too.

Florence did NOT, and I repeat, did NOT live nor die in poverty. Besides from losing her home, she always had homes to go due to her large family [[she moved in with Maxine for a time). Most impoverished folks can't afford welfare like she could.

That said, after she got her head together in late 1974, she began to put her house [[literally) in order and was set to make a living as a solo artist when she suddenly died. I just wish the media stopped saying "poverty".

If anyone was impoverished at the end of their life, it was Judy Garland. She literally had no money but you don't see anyone saying "Judy Garland died in poverty". No let's call a black singer who rose to international fame as one of the members of one of the most successful vocal groups in history impoverished because it fits the media narrative.

GTFOH! And the surviving Chapman sisters ain't living in poverty either.

[marv2]

Marv was that at John R and Brush? Thanks.

Yep! That was the "Stroll" back in those days.

[marv2]

Why does the media say she died in poverty when we know, unless not true, she won a lawsuit and bought a house and a new car. Flo was also thinking about getting back in the business. Seems to be a lot of misinformation about the end of her life. Thanks for posting.

They say that because she was on ADC.[[Aid to Dependent Children).

[marv2]

I'm so tired of that narrative too.

Florence did NOT, and I repeat, did NOT live nor die in poverty. Besides from losing her home, she always had homes to go due to her large family [[she moved in with Maxine for a time). Most impoverished folks can't afford welfare like she could.

That said, after she got her head together in late 1974, she began to put her house [[literally) in order and was set to make a living as a solo artist when she suddenly died. I just wish the media stopped saying "poverty".

If anyone was impoverished at the end of their life, it was Judy Garland. She literally had no money but you don't see anyone saying "Judy Garland died in poverty". No let's call a black singer who rose to international fame as one of the members of one of the most successful vocal groups in history impoverished because it fits the media narrative.

GTFOH! And the surviving Chapman sisters ain't living in poverty either.

Oh yeah she lived in poverty for a good stretch of the 1970s up until not long before death. I don't understand what you mean by "most impoverished folks can't afford welfare like she could". That doesn't make sense to me.

[TheMotownManiac]

If Gordy didn't bar Mary Wells or any other high profile act that left the company from recording again, he wouldn't have done so to Diana. And I would be shocked if he could legally bar anyone from recording elsewhere after leaving. Wasn't that the point of tying some artists up in lengthy contracts even though there was clearly no desire from the label to churn out tons of music for said artists during their tenure?

I agree with you that the nice thing for Barry Gordy to do, since he made more money off of the Supremes than even the supreme did by far, would be to help Florence his girls out in some fashion. I think paying for her funeral was more of an insult than anything. If he had paid for her funeral and looked out for her children financially even in a small way that would’ve been different.

No one has the legal right to deny another person’s experience from happening, so berry Gordy could never keep diana ross from saying she was a supreme if she left the group under unfriendly circumstances… Unless she agreed to do that, like Florence did, in exchange no one has the legal right to deny another person‘s experience from happening, so berry Gordy could never keep diana ross from saying she was a supreme if she left the group under unfriendly circumstances… Unless she agreed to do that, like Florence dead, in exchange for monetary gain. Florence didn’t have to agree to that, her attorney agreed to it on her behalf because her attorney didn’t care What happened to her after he rob deer blind…… But unfortunately, this is because of the poor decision making that surround and Florence upon her departure of the Supremes and none of that is the fault of Motown records or a berry Gordy, 100% of her raw deal is because of who she chose has her legal representative and what she agreed to. And you are correct in that every nickel of royalties saved went directly into Barry Gordy‘s pocket, minus the environment for consideration of no future royalties…… Which ultimately Florence never received…… Which is not the fault of Barry Gordy.

as far as royalties on Motown recordings go after the sale of the company, I am as far from an attorney or someone can be but I do a fair amount of reading and sniffing into recording contracts and music industry contacts because it interests me and from my Laymans knowledge, Barry Gordy would not receive royalties on any Motown record unless he was personally involved with the writing or production or owning the rights to the music…… However if this song was written by Stevie Wonder and produced by Stevie Wonder and the music was not under the control of Barry Gordy or Motown, then he would receive no royalty whatsoever on that track … That only the profits from the manufacture and sale of that track.

[marv2]

If there is a nice moral and warm side to this, it is that at least Diana Ross and Berry Gordy provided some support to Florence and her family; .

That is bullshit! Those girls have been on some form of governmental assistance most of their lives. Berry Gordy and Diana Ross did not do the right thing......period!

[Roberta75]

That is bullshit! Those girls have been on some form of governmental assistance most of their lives. Berry Gordy and Diana Ross did not do the right thing......period!

No you are the BS artist. Lisa Chapman has worked at an automotive company for the past 5 years and isnt on no Government assistance and Michelle is working and Nicole is doing just fine. They wouldnt be happy about you trashing Aunt Diane and saying theyve been living on assistance.

[PeaceNHarmony]

No you are the BS artist. Lisa Chapman has worked at an automotive company for the past 5 years and isnt on no Government assistance and Michelle is working and Nicole is doing just fine. They wouldnt be happy about you trashing Aunt Diane and saying theyve been living on assistance.It's nice to hear that the ladies have made lives for themselves, Ms. Roberta. Not everyone is born to be, or should be, a star. And as we see from Lisa Marie Presley [[just one example) an offspring living off of royalties does not always equal a happy or productive life. If one chooses to point fingers, as I have stated before: why doesn't the other businesswoman and world superstar ex: Supreme give jobs to the ladies if they need assistance? It would be interesting to hear a logical reply to that from ... some quarters. Be well, my friend!

[Roberta75]

It's nice to hear that the ladies have made lives for themselves, Ms. Roberta. Not everyone is born to be, or should be, a star. And as we see from Lisa Marie Presley [[just one example) an offspring living off of royalties does not always equal a happy or productive life. If one chooses to point fingers, as I have stated before: why doesn't the other businesswoman and world superstar ex: Supreme give jobs to the ladies if they need assistance? It would be interesting to hear a logical reply to that from ... some quarters. Be well, my friend!

Money doesnt buy happiness [[Michael Jackson found that out) but its nice to earn and have. Lisa works with my cousin in Highland Park. Michigan and is a real nice lady and a hard worker but that doesnt fit into the bitter ones plan of making Flo and her family victims of Gordy and Ross and Wilson and Motown.

[midnightman]

The Chapmans are doing great. Florence and Tommy would be proud of them right now.

[Roberta75]

The Chapmans are doing great. Florence and Tommy would be proud of them right now.

Yes they would be real proud. I know Flo is beaming brightly with pride when she looks down at her kids and grandkids and great grandkids.

[PeaceNHarmony]

Money doesnt buy happiness [[Michael Jackson found that out) but its nice to earn and have. Lisa works with my cousin in Highland Park. Michigan and is a real nice lady and a hard worker but that doesnt fit into the bitter ones plan of making Flo and her family victims of Gordy and Ross and Wilson and Motown.RIGHT?! And the polluters here never realize how they devalue lives of honorable people such as the Ballard-Chapman ladies who indeed seem to have built good lives for themselves. That's the story of Florence Ballard that should be told, the one of strength and self-determination evidenced by her now-adult children.

[thanxal]

RIGHT?! And the polluters here never realize how they devalue lives of honorable people such as the Ballard-Chapman ladies who indeed seem to have built good lives for themselves. That's the story of Florence Ballard that should be told, the one of strength and self-determination evidenced by her now-adult children.
Preach it!

[luke]

Martha signed away her royalties and then got them back!

[marv2]

Martha signed away her royalties and then got them back!

Yes she did. Now, with this "Music Modernization Act" that's been enacted into law, I can't see why Florence's children cannot receive royalties from music downloading services and other music distribution outlets. All of Florence's recordings with the Supremes and solo were made before 1972 and this Act has nothing to do with Motown or her separation of them.

[jobeterob]

Martha signed away her royalties and then got them back!

And now she receives $183.14 a year

[marv2]

And now she receives $183.14 a year

Did she tell you that? That 's right, you don't know anything.

[detmotownguy]

Hi Marv, Actually Martha rec a nice settlement. I can’t remember her lawyers name, but he is from Detroit.

[detmotownguy]

Luke on this one occasion when she was meeting with her lawyer in our building she had on this red leather suit and looked so fine.
She was always so nice and made it a point to not snub her fans. There is something very spiritual about her.

[midnightman]

Hi Marv, Actually Martha rec a nice settlement. I can’t remember her lawyers name, but he is from Detroit.

And IIRC, Martha sued Motown in 83, like six years before the Vandellas sued too. Martha got hers, I think the Vandellas got theirs but it wasn't much since they had to split it [[twice if it was just Annette and Rosalind).

[midnightman]

And now she receives $183.14 a year

Wait wait wait... I know she didn't receive something THAT low... I get it's probably performance royalties but that low? From someone who sung the heavens out of Heat Wave, Quicksand and Dancing in the Street?

[marv2]

Wait wait wait... I know she didn't receive something THAT low... I get it's probably performance royalties but that low? From someone who sung the heavens out of Heat Wave, Quicksand and Dancing in the Street?

He made that shit up trying to be cute. He doesn't know anything about ANYTHING!

[marv2]

Hi Marv, Actually Martha rec a nice settlement. I can’t remember her lawyers name, but he is from Detroit.

Jean Terrell went to court also for her back royalties in 1993 or 94. I can't remember now.

[PeaceNHarmony]

And now she receives $183.14 a yearCertainly not what Martha is worth, but it is what it is. Our favorite performers would make more on royalties if they received royalties on phony fan outrage.

[midnightman]

If Martha is earning that, then I hate to hear how much Annette, Rosalind, Betty and Lois are getting paid.

[marv2]

If Martha is earning that, then I hate to hear how much Annette, Rosalind, Betty and Lois are getting paid.

and you believe she is earning that amount because?

[midnightman]

and you believe she is earning that amount because?

And do you know how much she's earning?

I didn't even say I believed Rob. I asked him was that true lol

You're mad that you assume three black women, the offspring of the founder of the Supremes, is on welfare and that assumption backfired?

I wasn't saying Martha was only earning that much, Rob did. Ask him lol

[midnightman]

Hi Marv, Actually Martha rec a nice settlement. I can’t remember her lawyers name, but he is from Detroit.

Do you recall how much? I know they say a six figure sum but they never disclose it. I assume she makes a nice buck from Motown every year since then.

I know Gladys Knight continues to get royalty paychecks off her Motown hits to this day [[she said so in one of her docs, forget it was Behind the Music or her A&E Biography).

[marv2]

And do you know how much she's earning?

I didn't even say I believed Rob. I asked him was that true lol

You're mad that you assume three black women, the offspring of the founder of the Supremes, is on welfare and that assumption backfired?

I wasn't saying Martha was only earning that much, Rob did. Ask him lol

I don't know people's personal financial business and I am smart enough to know that no one else here does either! I further know that you cannot believe the net worth of celebrities that somehow get published online. If that info were true, accurate and available to the public, then Congress would not be going through all the trouble of getting Donald Trump's tax returns.

I didn't assume anything about the Chapman sisters being on welfare......they said it themselves!

I cannot argue anymore with a child. Take care.

[TNSUN]

Florence Ballard's renedition of "Oh Holy
Night" is beautiful. I believe that if underground recordings of Flo's singing, during the interval
of time, between her recording contracts, were
to be discovered, they could be released as an album-with royalties given to her children.
1. Have Flo's children ever signed away literary rights for the family authorized biography of
Florence Ballard?
2.After Florence left The Supremes, much has been written about the minimal contact maintained by Mary Wilson and Diana Ross. How much contact existed between them and Florence Ballard? Did Berry Gordy limit contact?
3. I think Diana Ross and The Supremes were overworked,which had an effect on their interpersonal relationships. Any thoughts on this?
4.Diana Ross' request for her private dressing room seems to be to find some peace during
this hectic working period.Should Mary and Florence also had their own private dressing
room?
5.In the movie "Mahogany" Tracey Chambers'
seamstress is named, "Aunt Flo". Coincidence?

[ballardfan67]

From sources I have been told that Berry was the one that gave Flo the money for her home in the 70s, as a last part of her settlement. And the trust was funded by Motown and Diana was the "spokesperson" so to speak, like she was for the Jackson 5. Also Mary stated in an interview right after Flo's death that Motown gave Tommy a job to provide for the kids, so Berry may have made some subtle attempts to assist. Im sure if the ladies had shown some attempts on their own to have a better life they would have received more help. Diana offered them all a college education, they all turned it down

[TNSUN]

Though Florence Ballard signed away her rights to use Florence Ballard, formerly of
The Supremes, as a personal marketing tool,was she ever compensated for her marketing expertise in choosing such a great name for a female group? The Supremes vs The Beatles? One name is royalty while the other name is an insect! Ha! Ha!
I wish Gladys Knight had advised Florence Ballard on legal matters.
Gladys knew her worth and which train to take to the bank.
Too bad, she walked into a casino.

[marv2]

Though Florence Ballard signed away her rights to use Florence Ballard, formerly of
The Supremes, as a personal marketing tool,was she ever compensated for her marketing expertise in choosing such a great name for a female group? The Supremes vs The Beatles? One name is royalty while the other name is an insect! Ha! Ha!
I wish Gladys Knight had advised Florence Ballard on legal matters.
Gladys knew her worth and which train to take to the bank.
Too bad, she walked into a casino.

You know, Gladys Knight did try to help. By the time Florence Ballard was fired from the Supremes, her name was very famous [[not as much as it is today) she could have gotten further with the right people behind her. I believe that certain things happened behind the scenes to derail her recording career and contract with ABC Records.

[midnightman]

Florence Ballard's renedition of "Oh Holy
Night" is beautiful. I believe that if underground recordings of Flo's singing, during the interval
of time, between her recording contracts, were
to be discovered, they could be released as an album-with royalties given to her children.
1. Have Flo's children ever signed away literary rights for the family authorized biography of
Florence Ballard?
2.After Florence left The Supremes, much has been written about the minimal contact maintained by Mary Wilson and Diana Ross. How much contact existed between them and Florence Ballard? Did Berry Gordy limit contact?
3. I think Diana Ross and The Supremes were overworked,which had an effect on their interpersonal relationships. Any thoughts on this?
4.Diana Ross' request for her private dressing room seems to be to find some peace during
this hectic working period.Should Mary and Florence also had their own private dressing
room?
5.In the movie "Mahogany" Tracey Chambers'
seamstress is named, "Aunt Flo". Coincidence?

1.) No idea. I think them writing an autobiography on their mother could be interesting though they were just babies when she died [[Nicole and Michelle, the twins, being around 8, and Lisa being 3/4-ish) but they could've saved details from their relatives and make it worthwhile. Don't know about now since Lurlee, most of the Ballard siblings and their father [[who died just five years after Flo) are now deceased.

2.) I don't think Berry limited contact but who the heck knows? Florence didn't see neither of the Supremes for years and didn't want to. It was only around 1974 that she hesitantly agreed to get onstage with Mary, Cindy [[who she initially had disdain for when there were talks of her replacing her) and Scherrie at Disneyland but even then, Florence was still struggling with her alcoholism and depression. Plus Flo's mood swings made her suspicious about any calls coming from Motown or Diana. They began patching things up [[Mary & Diana) around 1975. Flo told Peter Benjaminson that Diana called her and they talked like nothing had happened before the Supremes became big time and since both were young mothers [[I think Chudney had yet to be born when Diana and Flo talked to each other), they probably talked about parenting among other things).

3.) I definitely agree. Save for the Jackson 5, Four Tops and Temptations, I've never seen an act more overworked at Motown than Diana, Mary & Flo. Who knows how Mary was really feeling during the heyday [[she seemed to be more like "besides from Motown pushing Diane away from us, it was lovely blah blah blah"), but Flo struggled with it and openly told Berry and the girls how she hated it, and Diana had a double whammy, being "the boss' girl" and singing lead on virtually 95% of their material. She collapsed onstage a few months before the Vegas split and stress and work caused her to have bad eating habits [[she has claimed she was probably suffering from anorexia nervosa). We know Diana LOVED being a star but she paid a very heavy price as we all know now.

4.) That might've been it. Diana is a very complex woman. I can't see her having one side, neither could I do that to Mary and Flo. These three were totally complex human beings who came together, not from sisterhood, but from wanting the same goal: to sing and be a star. I don't think they all necessarily wanted to be famous but they clearly wanted to be stars and after a while, they no longer had the same goals and were growing up [[remember, they were only 14 and 15 years old when they formed the Primettes; by the time you reach your early 20s, you're not gonna have the same goals, no one does. Not too many acts stay together. Ego was always gonna be a problem and they all had ego but Diana's ambitious streak eclipsed Mary's and Flo's).

Florence often talked about how after they found fame, they were forced to split time apart anyway, she claimed each member had their own hotel room and neither of them would see each other until it was time to get ready for the show, as she said, "it seems that we were splitting up in that matter". After 1965, there started to not be that much camaraderie especially after Diana's star turn that year.

5.) Could've been a coincidence. :) I don't make much of that lol

Fame's a beast. RIP Flo.

[midnightman]

Though Florence Ballard signed away her rights to use Florence Ballard, formerly of
The Supremes, as a personal marketing tool,was she ever compensated for her marketing expertise in choosing such a great name for a female group? The Supremes vs The Beatles? One name is royalty while the other name is an insect! Ha! Ha!
I wish Gladys Knight had advised Florence Ballard on legal matters.
Gladys knew her worth and which train to take to the bank.
Too bad, she walked into a casino.

I know Gladys wishes she hadn't decided to play in the casinos, that can be as addicting as drugs: gambling your life away is what I called it. I guess it was that deep that she became a Mormon later on... IDK. But back in the '60s and '70s, few Motown acts were managing their money. Only Gladys Knight & the Pips did, that might've been a reason Gladys felt the group were outsiders there despite their reputation as one of its best-selling acts in the late '60s and early '70s.

[khansperac]

I thought Diana was saying a little light flows .

[midnightman]

I thought Diana was saying a little light flows .

I don't know. It may be my hearing. LOL

You may be right. :)

Forget #5. My other four points still matter. :D

[sup_fan]

Florence Ballard's renedition of "Oh Holy
Night" is beautiful. I believe that if underground recordings of Flo's singing, during the interval
of time, between her recording contracts, were
to be discovered, they could be released as an album-with royalties given to her children.
1. Have Flo's children ever signed away literary rights for the family authorized biography of
Florence Ballard?
2.After Florence left The Supremes, much has been written about the minimal contact maintained by Mary Wilson and Diana Ross. How much contact existed between them and Florence Ballard? Did Berry Gordy limit contact?
3. I think Diana Ross and The Supremes were overworked,which had an effect on their interpersonal relationships. Any thoughts on this?
4.Diana Ross' request for her private dressing room seems to be to find some peace during
this hectic working period.Should Mary and Florence also had their own private dressing
room?
5.In the movie "Mahogany" Tracey Chambers'
seamstress is named, "Aunt Flo". Coincidence?

1. i've never really heard much. there was some fan gossip that they were involved with this supposed movie about Flo but i wouldn't put a whole lot of faith in that.

2. supposedly mary kept in a little contact. she brought Flo to that Motown party at Berry's house/pool. that was the last time the 3 original Supremes were together while alive. the next time would be Flo's funeral. I'd assume that Berry had little to no contact with her after she left Vegas. at that point their professional and personal relationships were destroyed. But after a while life just took it's course. Mary was crazy busy touring with DRATS and then The New Sups. Diana was completely wrapped up with her work too. and flo's mental state seriously declined by 69, 70.

Diana attempted to help out with the mortgage on Flo's house just before she lost it. but according to Randy, either Tommy or someone wouldn't allow her to simply make the check payable to the bank and Flo wouldn't return her calls. Whether it was paranoia or shame or whatever, who knows. Flo did have a phone call with Diana after seeing Mahogany. I'm not sure they'd had much

3. absolutely. It's all about money.

4. at this point Diana was shouldering really the entire burden of the group. she was singing all of the leads in the show plus LEADING the show with her energy and persona, constantly recording, interviews, appearances, travel, etc. The inter group dynamics were pretty much destroyed by this time. the tension between Flo and Diana was rapidly spiraling out of control. Berry was probably willing to do just about anything to makes things easier for her [[outsider of reducing the work). if having a private dressing room would reduce her stress and keep her on point, that would be an easy decision. she could sleep in there, rest up. Flo wouldn't be there to argue or fight.

[khansperac]

It was also reported on this forum by Rick, don’t recall his last name but he is a flo/supreme expert. He said Diana visited Flo at her home And they chatted for a good while.

[khansperac]

^^^The guy I’m referring to was not just a forum member. He can be seen on almost all Motown documentaries. The story he was referring to was for I believe the mystery and scandals show on Florence Ballard as told to him by family members. This story was unfortunately left out of the show.

[midnightman]

It was also reported on this forum by Rick, don’t recall his last name but he is a flo/supreme expert. He said Diana visited Flo at her home And they chatted for a good while.

Interesting... I definitely won't deny this happened. I think after 1974, Flo had stopped holding grudges. Unfortunately with her early death, we'll never know what would've happened with her career and her future relationships with her former partners.

[reese]

^^^The guy I’m referring to was not just a forum member. He can be seen on almost all Motown documentaries. The story he was referring to was for I believe the mystery and scandals show on Florence Ballard as told to him by family members. This story was unfortunately left out of the show.

His name is Rick Bueche. I believe he placed Diana's visit to Flo as being circa 1970.

[floyjoy678]

I've also read that Diana invited Flo to Rhonda's first birthday party, which would have been in 1972.

[jobeterob]

1. i've never really heard much. there was some fan gossip that they were involved with this supposed movie about Flo but i wouldn't put a whole lot of faith in that.

2. supposedly mary kept in a little contact. she brought Flo to that Motown party at Berry's house/pool. that was the last time the 3 original Supremes were together while alive. the next time would be Flo's funeral. I'd assume that Berry had little to no contact with her after she left Vegas. at that point their professional and personal relationships were destroyed. But after a while life just took it's course. Mary was crazy busy touring with DRATS and then The New Sups. Diana was completely wrapped up with her work too. and flo's mental state seriously declined by 69, 70.

Diana attempted to help out with the mortgage on Flo's house just before she lost it. but according to Randy, either Tommy or someone wouldn't allow her to simply make the check payable to the bank and Flo wouldn't return her calls. Whether it was paranoia or shame or whatever, who knows. Flo did have a phone call with Diana after seeing Mahogany. I'm not sure they'd had much

3. absolutely. It's all about money.

4. at this point Diana was shouldering really the entire burden of the group. she was singing all of the leads in the show plus LEADING the show with her energy and persona, constantly recording, interviews, appearances, travel, etc. The inter group dynamics were pretty much destroyed by this time. the tension between Flo and Diana was rapidly spiraling out of control. Berry was probably willing to do just about anything to makes things easier for her [[outsider of reducing the work). if having a private dressing room would reduce her stress and keep her on point, that would be an easy decision. she could sleep in there, rest up. Flo wouldn't be there to argue or fight.

The children have no control over who can write about Florence and you can’t defame a deceased person

But they could write their own book. Didn’t Maxine make some dreadful attempt?

[reese]

I've also read that Diana invited Flo to Rhonda's first birthday party, which would have been in 1972.

I read that as well. They said after Diana sang HAPPY BIRTHDAY, Flo responded "She's singing flat." :)

[midnightman]

I've also read that Diana invited Flo to Rhonda's first birthday party, which would have been in 1972.

I read about that. :)

Yeah Rick Bueche. Saw him on the DR and Flo docs.

[char]

I DONT KNOW ALL THE ROYALTIES PLEASE GIVE "FLOWING FLOWER FLO" HER STAMP THANK YOU SWEETIE PIE PISCES THIS IS TERRIBLE! RUTHLESS BUSINESS GREED I MUST BE FIRST. I WISH IWISH "FLOWING FLO" AND SWEETIE PIE PISCES MARY HAD A CHANCE TO SING A SONG [[1 SOLO) ON AT LEAST ONE OR TWO ALBUMS MY GOODNESS WOULD IT HAVE HURT!!
https://static.xx.fbcdn.net/images/emoji.php/v9/t9b/1/16/1f97a.png I KNOW MS.ROSS WAS THE STAR BUT I WOULD HAVE SAID LOOK BARRY LOOK AFTER MY SISTERS . WHO KNOWS SMOKEY COULD HAVE WRITTEN A HIT FOR THEM AND WE COULD HAVE BEEN ENJOYING A CLASSIC JUST LIKE THE CLASSIC 5 !!! NOW WE HAVE NOTHINGhttps://static.xx.fbcdn.net/images/emoji.php/v9/t99/1/16/1f33a.png DAMN RIGHT SHE DESERVES A STAMP! MY OPINIONhttps://static.xx.fbcdn.net/images/emoji.php/v9/t99/1/16/1f33a.png