Diana Ross' Payout from Motown

[TNSUN]

I find it hard to believe that when Diana Ross left Motown, she was given just given a token $100,000.
That amounts to a weekend gig in Las Vegas, not including meals for the band. Did she get any Motown Stock Options?

[sup_fan]

this amount was based on her final payout from her accounts. it wasn't simply a "token $110K"

whatever costs diana incurred for studio time, promotion, tours, management fees, etc had to be deducted from her earnings. so that wildly extravagant show she did for The Boss tour had to be paid for: the huge orchestra, dancers, stage hands, choreographer, director, tv crews, etc.

Also her contracts list out what her royalty rates would be along with her %'s for touring and appearances.

[reese]

Not sure of the exact amount she received. But Diana herself said in a 1992 LEAR'S article that once she took over responsibility for her career, she actually had to go to a bank and borrow in order to pay her taxes. She continued by saying she looked at the situation as "You may not have much money. But you have your name and that's a starting point."

[SatansBlues]

I hate to say it but DR was right to leave Motown from a financial standpoint.

[sup_fan]

it's always been an super interesting discussion - should she have left or not?

financially - absolutely
artistically - perhaps not the best move

In the various biographies written, it seems like money and career control were the primary decisions. That and i think she just wanted to get AWAY from Berry.

[SatansBlues]

it's always been an super interesting discussion - should she have left or not?

financially - absolutely
artistically - perhaps not the best move

In the various biographies written, it seems like money and career control were the primary decisions. That and i think she just wanted to get AWAY from Berry.

Well with the exception of Stevie Wonder, they all left, most just did it a decade earlier.

[jobeterob]

Leaving and taking control was critically important to financial and mental well being. You couldn't really get a much bigger career.

[marv2]

it's always been an super interesting discussion - should she have left or not?

financially - absolutely
artistically - perhaps not the best move

In the various biographies written, it seems like money and career control were the primary decisions. That and i think she just wanted to get AWAY from Berry.
Berry Gordy and Motown controlled her finances. When she decided to leave, they took back her home, the yellow rolls royce, jewelry, fur coats and other items. She was told that it all belonged to the company and was only loaned to her!

[Levi Stubbs Tears]

The financial decision was the correct one and it enabled Diana to set herself up for the rest of her life.

The artistic direction wasn't so correct - she really needed a strong production team in charge of her first release for RCA. She was probably in the best position of her solo career after her best-selling album of all time and two further solo hits. She should have built on this, but it went downhill quickly due to poor artistic choices over the next few years.

[sup_fan]

The financial decision was the correct one and it enabled Diana to set herself up for the rest of her life.

The artistic direction wasn't so correct - she really needed a strong production team in charge of her first release for RCA. She was probably in the best position of her solo career after her best-selling album of all time and two further solo hits. She should have built on this, but it went downhill quickly due to poor artistic choices over the next few years.

yeah i agree. I enjoy the first two albums but agree that they pale with what SHOULD have happened. when berry launched her solo career in 70, so much care was put into the first lp. it's stunning. After The Boss and diana, then It's My Turn and Endless Love, she should have released a masterpiece. but alas...

[Bluebrock]

yeah i agree. I enjoy the first two albums but agree that they pale with what SHOULD have happened. when berry launched her solo career in 70, so much care was put into the first lp. it's stunning. After The Boss and diana, then It's My Turn and Endless Love, she should have released a masterpiece. but alas...

I think her rca albums gradually improved in quality, but none of them even approached classic status. Sadly that concerned us far more than it ever concerned her, and that in itself was quite sad.

[midnightman]

Diana left Motown cause BG controlled many of the artists' bank accounts. She did try to renegotiate with Motown but BG kept claiming it was impossible so she left.

[PeaceNHarmony]

I think her rca albums gradually improved in quality, but none of them even approached classic status. Sadly that concerned us far more than it ever concerned her, and that in itself was quite sad.Welll ... during those years I think Diana was more concerned with her family than her albums, and to that I say 'Brava, diva'!

[BayouMotownMan]

I find it hard to believe that when Diana Ross left Motown, she was given just given a token $100,000.
That amounts to a weekend gig in Las Vegas, not including meals for the band. Did she get any Motown Stock Options?

That was the amount Mary got in 1971 when she demanded to be in full charge of her finances. Diana got a little more than double that when she demanded the same ten years later. It's one of the main reasons she left Motown

[detmotownguy]

Berry Gordy and Motown controlled her finances. When she decided to leave, they took back her home, the yellow rolls royce, jewelry, fur coats and other items. She was told that it all belonged to the company and was only loaned to her!

I hope she had her accountant perform an audit since I was under the impression that those sort of assets were debited from the artists account? At some point, I would hope that the company would make things right as they did with Martha. Martha used to meet with her lawyer/advisor in cafe at work and sit way in the back. Aside from HDH and Flo, was Martha one of the first artists to demand an accounting of earnings? Just seems odd that Motown would take it upon themselves to treat the artists that way.

[Bluebrock]

Welll ... during those years I think Diana was more concerned with her family than her albums, and to that I say 'Brava, diva'!
She was always way more concerned about her family as opposed to her career. That is only right of course. She never really wanted to leave Motown but when Gene Simmons showed her how much money he was earning and what the potential was for her own earnings she decided she had no choice in the matter.

[Ollie9]

Welll ... during those years I think Diana was more concerned with her family than her albums, and to that I say 'Brava, diva'!

I don't understand why loving and taking time out to be with your family is synonymous with releasing subpar music. Other recording artists with young children seem to have avoided this fate.
The reality is Diana is no producer and that point in time had no real understanding of what her fans wanted from her.

[captainjames]

It was probably the best move of her career and her longevity. It has been a long time but some of the things that still register was Mr. Gordy telling Diana he could not match the offers that she was getting. Anything that she recorded was charged to her account whether it was released or not. The talk at the time was that Diana would never leave Motown and that it was just a bluff. Diana left, Mr. Gordy sold Motown, Diana came back after being wiser about here her money. I think Diana would have survived some way but to stay with Motown , I think she would have eventually faded from the music business just like she did with the movie business.

[SatansBlues]

That was the amount Mary got in 1971 when she demanded to be in full charge of her finances. Diana got a little more than double that when she demanded the same ten years later. It's one of the main reasons she left Motown

I wonder how much Smokey Robinson got paid when he left Motown in the 80s.

[PeaceNHarmony]

I don't understand why loving and taking time out to be with your family is synonymous with releasing subpar music. Other recording artists with young children seem to have avoided this fate.
The reality is Diana is no producer and that point in time had no real understanding of what her fans wanted from her.My guess is that Diana enlisted herself as producer to gain a greater share of royalties. I also guess that perhaps other recording artists raising children, caring for ageing parents, being closely involved with siblings, etc are able to do so and release 'better' albums that you think Diana did, but that opens an entire can of false-comparison worms! I could, but won't, list many [[many!) recording and movie stars of Diana's vintage who may have released better-regarded music or movies and have a passel of non-productive, hot-mess offspring and bitter exes, and leave it at that. Even super-stars have a limited amount of time and focus. For me, Diana has done just fine with both her career output and legendary family-matriarch status and I think any younger artist could not do better than to model their life/career balance on that of Diana Ross.

[Bluebrock]

I don't understand why loving and taking time out to be with your family is synonymous with releasing subpar music. Other recording artists with young children seem to have avoided this fate.
The reality is Diana is no producer and that point in time had no real understanding of what her fans wanted from her.
I think what PeaceNHarmony meant was that she made music a very poor 2nd in her list of priorities at this time Ollie.
I totally agree she was no producer but she did enjoy the freedom of doing what she wanted, even if her loyal fans were less than impressed with the results.
If i am to be brutally honest she didn't really care that much whether her fans approved of her musical output . Her main priority was to provide financial stability for her girls. She succeeded in making herself large amounts of money whilst trying to be a hands on mother.
Sadly what her long suffering fans wanted was not a priority for her.

[reese]

I wonder how much Smokey Robinson got paid when he left Motown in the 80s.

Smokey left in 1991, I believe, to sign with SBK. Motown was no longer the same entity that he and Diana had originally recorded for. Plus I don't think Motown [[and/or Berry) was in control of Smokey's finances to the same extent that they were with Diana. Also, Smokey should have had substantial income from both his record and songwriting royalties.

[Ollie9]

My guess is that Diana enlisted herself as producer to gain a greater share of royalties. I also guess that perhaps other recording artists raising children, caring for ageing parents, being closely involved with siblings, etc are able to do so and release 'better' albums that you think Diana did, but that opens an entire can of false-comparison worms! I could, but won't, list many [[many!) recording and movie stars of Diana's vintage who may have released better-regarded music or movies and have a passel of non-productive, hot-mess offspring and bitter exes, and leave it at that. Even super-stars have a limited amount of time and focus. For me, Diana has done just fine with both her career output and legendary family-matriarch status and I think any younger artist could not do better than to model their life/career balance on that of Diana Ross.

Pack the kids off to Aunty Betty or even better boarding school and concentrate on the music i say.....
But seriously... Of course Diana has done financially rather well and agree is a fine template for young and upcoming artists. The point i was making was why does being a busy, family oriented person automatically mean you can't put a little more effort into recording a good album. This is your musical legacy after all.
No matter how you dress it up those first two RCA albums will never be considered jewels in Diana's crown. Sure she made lots of money........but yea.

[sup_fan]

Pack the kids off to Aunty Betty or even better boarding school and concentrate on the music i say.....
But seriously... Of course Diana has done financially rather well and agree is a fine template for young and upcoming artists. The point i was making was why does being a busy, family oriented person automatically mean you can't put a little more effort into recording a good album. This is your musical legacy after all.
No matter how you dress it up those first two RCA albums will never be considered jewels in Diana's crown. Sure she made lots of money........but yea.

i hear your point. I think the old phrase "you can't have it all" comes to mind. she wasn't just a recording artist, she was running her entire entertainment organization. Recording, tour management, production company, licensing, etc. Plus other business interests, raising three young children. There are only 24 hours in a day. The hours it takes to:

review submitted tracks from writers, studio time, recording the backing tracks with musicians, recording it again cuz the first version wasn't so hot, recording it AGAIN cuz it was accidentally erased. producing the vocals. mixing. remixing. preparing the lineup for the lp, exploring mixes of songs for single edit versus album edit. photo shoots. designing the lp cover [[front and back), reworking the lp art. working with marketing agency for trade posters, rehearsing tracks for the next recording, rehearsing songs for the live shows, scheduling tv appearances, rehearsing for the tv show, taping. rehearsing for the video shoot, taping the video shoot, promotional interviews, appearances at local events like an art opening, premier of a movie, etc,

and that's surely just a fraction of what was going on with her professional responsibilities. sure she had employees and assistants but we know she's not one to totally delegate responsibilities lol

So at a certain point, something is going to be short changed. She rightly refused to sacrifice family. Therefore studio time perfecting music, time spent collaborating with producers might have been

[PeaceNHarmony]

Pack the kids off to Aunty Betty or even better boarding school and concentrate on the music i say.....
But seriously... Of course Diana has done financially rather well and agree is a fine template for young and upcoming artists. The point i was making was why does being a busy, family oriented person automatically mean you can't put a little more effort into recording a good album. This is your musical legacy after all.
No matter how you dress it up those first two RCA albums will never be considered jewels in Diana's crown. Sure she made lots of money........but yea.Well, you value entertainment over family! So be it. We each have our our own values and priorities, I guess. Be well.

[PeaceNHarmony]

I think what PeaceNHarmony meant was that she made music a very poor 2nd in her list of priorities at this time Ollie.
I totally agree she was no producer but she did enjoy the freedom of doing what she wanted, even if her loyal fans were less than impressed with the results.
If i am to be brutally honest she didn't really care that much whether her fans approved of her musical output . Her main priority was to provide financial stability for her girls. She succeeded in making herself large amounts of money whilst trying to be a hands on mother.
Sadly what her long suffering fans wanted was not a priority for her.I'll 'ditto' what I just replied to Ollie, and am proud to be among the fans who never even once 'suffered' by something so unimportant as an lp that was not precisely to my individual liking! Miss Ross, you did great good, you did, and our world is better for your presence.

[Ollie9]

I'll 'ditto' what I just replied to Ollie, and am proud to be among the fans who never even once 'suffered' by something so unimportant as an lp that was not precisely to my individual liking! Miss Ross, you did great good, you did, and our world is better for your presence.

To say i suffered might be classed as a slight exaggeration. I was most certainly a smidgen disappointed if my memory serves me right. Ah well, such is life. Onwards and upwards i say.

[Ollie9]

i hear your point. I think the old phrase "you can't have it all" comes to mind. she wasn't just a recording artist, she was running her entire entertainment organization. Recording, tour management, production company, licensing, etc. Plus other business interests, raising three young children. There are only 24 hours in a day. The hours it takes to:

review submitted tracks from writers, studio time, recording the backing tracks with musicians, recording it again cuz the first version wasn't so hot, recording it AGAIN cuz it was accidentally erased. producing the vocals. mixing. remixing. preparing the lineup for the lp, exploring mixes of songs for single edit versus album edit. photo shoots. designing the lp cover [[front and back), reworking the lp art. working with marketing agency for trade posters, rehearsing tracks for the next recording, rehearsing songs for the live shows, scheduling tv appearances, rehearsing for the tv show, taping. rehearsing for the video shoot, taping the video shoot, promotional interviews, appearances at local events like an art opening, premier of a movie, etc,

and that's surely just a fraction of what was going on with her professional responsibilities. sure she had employees and assistants but we know she's not one to totally delegate responsibilities lol

So at a certain point, something is going to be short changed. She rightly refused to sacrifice family. Therefore studio time perfecting music, time spent collaborating with producers might have been

A really good post sup. I can see it all from that perspective as well. Whatever mistakes Diana made at the time, no one could ever claim she sat back and let it all happen.

[sup_fan]

I think the real issue fans have is that her POTENTIAL for amazing music really wasn't met while at RCA. for a typical artist, her sales and chart performance would be a wonderful thing. But this is MISS DIANA ROSS lol. and given that her motown career had finally sorted turned around, in terms of lp quality, the hope was that would continue.

[vgalindo]

Well Diana never disappointed me. Her RCA years were very exciting for me. The huge arena tours, new posters, beautiful tour programs at every new tour. A new album every year. The Central Park concert. I miss these times of her career. She was at the height of her fame. And I loved the music!

[TNSUN]

Ms. Ross never disappointed me either. Both the "The Force Behind the Power" and "Take Me Higher" albums were both beyond my expectations. In the 1980's,I used to tell my friends in NYC that I was not going out to the clubs, and that I would be home playing my Diana Ross and Supremes Albums. I told them that I would be dreaming about a Supremes Reunion in the year 2000! Well, in 2000, I was there opening night in Phila. The seats were expensive, yet the night was also my treat to my friends.To hear, Diana Ross sing "Reach Out, I"ll be There" was thrilling. The opening filmed montage was history! Luther Van Dross being there was the icing on the cake!🎁

[RanRan79]

The point i was making was why does being a busy, family oriented person automatically mean you can't put a little more effort into recording a good album.

Because it's a bunch of boloney. Career women, then as now, find a way to juggle career and motherhood. It's difficult, but not impossible. Diana's priority was her family, and that's one of the reasons why I love this woman I have never met. So many showbiz folks put career ahead of family and then when the kids grow up, the tell alls come out, or the entertainer finds him/herself in a place where they suddenly realize that the money and fame ultimately were not worth the price of the sacrifice of the relationship with their children. Blessedly Diana will not be counted among that type. But the demands of family are never a reason for subpar work and only in a forum full of fanatics would such a thought be popular with anyone. Her RCA period showcased a mostly lazy artistic approach to recording. That the same woman who recorded beautiful renditions of Rodgers and Hart classics in the 60s and well received tracks of Billie Holiday numbers in the 70s could then turn around and record abysmal covers like "Rescue Me" and "Mr. Lee", had to boggle the minds of every non member of the Church of Diana during the RCA years.

[RanRan79]

i hear your point. I think the old phrase "you can't have it all" comes to mind. she wasn't just a recording artist, she was running her entire entertainment organization. Recording, tour management, production company, licensing, etc. Plus other business interests, raising three young children. There are only 24 hours in a day. The hours it takes to:

review submitted tracks from writers, studio time, recording the backing tracks with musicians, recording it again cuz the first version wasn't so hot, recording it AGAIN cuz it was accidentally erased. producing the vocals. mixing. remixing. preparing the lineup for the lp, exploring mixes of songs for single edit versus album edit. photo shoots. designing the lp cover [[front and back), reworking the lp art. working with marketing agency for trade posters, rehearsing tracks for the next recording, rehearsing songs for the live shows, scheduling tv appearances, rehearsing for the tv show, taping. rehearsing for the video shoot, taping the video shoot, promotional interviews, appearances at local events like an art opening, premier of a movie, etc,

and that's surely just a fraction of what was going on with her professional responsibilities. sure she had employees and assistants but we know she's not one to totally delegate responsibilities lol

So at a certain point, something is going to be short changed. She rightly refused to sacrifice family. Therefore studio time perfecting music, time spent collaborating with producers might have been

All excellent points Sup. However, none of that excuses the poor work. It might explain some of it, but it doesn't excuse it. Diana was not a stupid woman, so at some point it had to occur to her that she was in over her head musically, and yet she continued to record subpar album after subpar album. Perhaps her unwillingness to delegate screwed her over. She was the head of her own "empire" attempting to do it all, rather than oversee people who were better equipped than she to handle certain responsibilities. Of course this is all hindsight musings and I still believe that despite some folks attempting to assign sadness to this woman because she doesn't do a million interviews or pal around with people in the industry, she is a very happy lady because of the family she raised. But when it comes to Diana's musical legacy, most people cut it off after she leaves Motown, and to me that's not Motown's doing, it's Diana's. So much classic music she could've given us from that period but...

[RanRan79]

I think the real issue fans have is that her POTENTIAL for amazing music really wasn't met while at RCA. for a typical artist, her sales and chart performance would be a wonderful thing. But this is MISS DIANA ROSS lol. and given that her motown career had finally sorted turned around, in terms of lp quality, the hope was that would continue.

Ding, ding, ding!! Absolutely agree. And even at RCA there were IMO some great moments every now and then, such as "Mirror", "Swept Away" and "Missing You". "Muscles", for the time, also. Even "Chain Reaction", even though it didn't catch on here. So many unexplained duds in between single releases, and then non of the albums even came close to the classic quality of most of the fantastic albums she released on Motown.

[sup_fan]

Well Diana never disappointed me. Her RCA years were very exciting for me. The huge arena tours, new posters, beautiful tour programs at every new tour. A new album every year. The Central Park concert. I miss these times of her career. She was at the height of her fame. And I loved the music!

but there were little things along the way. it's stuff you notice more in retrospect than while it was happening

we've pretty well dissected her first two albums. so not going to bother adding anything there

But look at the haphazard go-to-market with Ross 83, which was released in June 83. Pieces of Ice is lead single, then Up Front and Let's Go Up. the Central Park show[[s) are in July. she's on Tonight Show in August but only does Let's Go Up. neither Pieces or Up Front get much national tv promotion

And with swept away, the only used the picture from the album cover in all of her promotional material. never once did they pull in another image or two in order to make a varied campaign.

it's just a series of lack of attention to details which ends up coming across as a lack of interest

and if she didn't really care or respect the music, how can fans be expected to do so?

[sup_fan]

All excellent points Sup. However, none of that excuses the poor work. It might explain some of it, but it doesn't excuse it. Diana was not a stupid woman, so at some point it had to occur to her that she was in over her head musically, and yet she continued to record subpar album after subpar album. Perhaps her unwillingness to delegate screwed her over. She was the head of her own "empire" attempting to do it all, rather than oversee people who were better equipped than she to handle certain responsibilities. Of course this is all hindsight musings and I still believe that despite some folks attempting to assign sadness to this woman because she doesn't do a million interviews or pal around with people in the industry, she is a very happy lady because of the family she raised. But when it comes to Diana's musical legacy, most people cut it off after she leaves Motown, and to me that's not Motown's doing, it's Diana's. So much classic music she could've given us from that period but...

i agree. for a woman that had been, historically, so focused on perfection it's incredible that she was willing to let things slip so much in the 80s. She was contracted with RCA to deliver 1 lp a year. that's not a massive undertaking. with her easy access to Manhattan from her estate in Connecticut, she could have focused on all recording being done there.

the problem is she seemed so focused on "control" that she never really appreciated that as "the boss" of course she was in control but by delegating you do have to relinquish some.

[vgalindo]

I knew “Missing you” was a top ten record but didn’t realize it is in the top 50 of Billboards biggest songs of 1985. Ranked higher than “Material Girl” by Madonna, Better be good to me” by Tina Turner and “Raspberry beret” by Prince and some other really big hits. She really needs to add this song back to her concert lineup. It was always one of the highlights of her shows for me. And is a favorite of many people I know

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billboard_Year-End_Hot_100_singles_of_1985

[Guy]

Because it's a bunch of boloney. Career women, then as now, find a way to juggle career and motherhood. It's difficult, but not impossible. Diana's priority was her family, and that's one of the reasons why I love this woman I have never met. So many showbiz folks put career ahead of family and then when the kids grow up, the tell alls come out, or the entertainer finds him/herself in a place where they suddenly realize that the money and fame ultimately were not worth the price of the sacrifice of the relationship with their children. Blessedly Diana will not be counted among that type. But the demands of family are never a reason for subpar work and only in a forum full of fanatics would such a thought be popular with anyone. Her RCA period showcased a mostly lazy artistic approach to recording. That the same woman who recorded beautiful renditions of Rodgers and Hart classics in the 60s and well received tracks of Billie Holiday numbers in the 70s could then turn around and record abysmal covers like "Rescue Me" and "Mr. Lee", had to boggle the minds of every non member of the Church of Diana during the RCA years.

Indeed. Her daughters were in a boarding school in Switzerland [[or wherever). It's not like she was picking them up from soccer practice three days a week. It's astonishing that anyone -- including the drama queen[[s) of SD -- could think that the lack of creativity and subpar quality of the RCA catalog was due to Ross's devotion to her family.

Now, her hauling her 75th birthday trunk show from Oklahoma to Louisiana and assorted, as well as the upcoming UK dates, IS a sign of her devotion to her family. By the time she takes her final bow, Ross will ensure that no descendant of Fred and Ernestine Ross is left without. Good for her.

[captainjames]

Diana took some chances and they were not always in favor of what the fans wanted but the key is she survived. She refused to be a victim again and if it was it was going to be her own doing. She recovered and is still standing and still a big draw.

[Guy]

Diana took some chances and they were not always in favor of what the fans wanted but the key is she survived. She refused to be a victim again and if it was it was going to be her own doing. She recovered and is still standing and still a big draw.

Agree. I love her for this reason. She is the ultimate survivor -- though I am still indifferent to her insistence on closing shows with 'I Will Survive.'

She sustained herself in a hostile music industry despite her gender, race, changing trends and the vagaries of age. Here and elsewhere there are those who belittle the extent [[or existence) of her talent, and her appeal, because she doesn't sing like this one or that one. Or because she is not a songwriter. Yet she thrives, quite spectacularly.

It is to her enduring credit that despite three decades of poor-to-mediocre recordings -- and an unchanging setlist that mercifully ignores those recordings -- we still clamor to see her, to talk about her, and ultimately, to celebrate her.

[gman]

She left Motown at exactly the right time....she would not have gotten the offer she did if she waited, and released a stiff after having the biggest solo LP / 4 top 10 singles in a year...Historically, up to this point her singles hits were spotty...she either went to #1 [[4 times) or missed the top 10 completely her entire solo career.....She was contemplating leaving once her contract ended. Gene Simmons just gave her the confidence to persue it...
Smokey, of course, left with a ton more $$$ padding....he was the vice president for years, and had vast composer and producer credit income...I don't think offsetting expenses was a issue for him at all.

[RanRan79]

Diana took some chances and they were not always in favor of what the fans wanted but the key is she survived. She refused to be a victim again and if it was it was going to be her own doing. She recovered and is still standing and still a big draw.

All of that very true. However, it doesn't negate the issue at hand: Diana's music at RCA was largely a bust with audiences, especially the albums. When women she started out with were moving quality [[now classic) product, Diana was doing something else. I can't remember what the song is [[not "Eaten Alive") that she performed on the AMAs when she hosted in 87 but I've only watched the performance once and I cringed the entire time. I was thinking there she is in front of an audience of folks like Dionne Warwick, Gladys Knight and who knows else, and she's doing this? It was painful. I imagine her peers were shaking their heads and thinking "My how the mighty has fallen".

[sup_fan]

for the early years at RCA, it seems that her whole focus was "oh yes i can!"

yes i can be a producer, yes i can sing 10,000 different musical styles from hard rock and roll to reggae to pop, yes i can handle all aspects of my career.

after being controlled for so long, the first couple years simply seem to be her experimenting for the sake of experimenting

then we approach the mid 80s and she's now 40 years old. she might have been panicked a bit by the arrival of the new female pop stars and so she desperately attempts to be trendy with her music

[reese]

All of that very true. However, it doesn't negate the issue at hand: Diana's music at RCA was largely a bust with audiences, especially the albums. When women she started out with were moving quality [[now classic) product, Diana was doing something else. I can't remember what the song is [[not "Eaten Alive") that she performed on the AMAs when she hosted in 87 but I've only watched the performance once and I cringed the entire time. I was thinking there she is in front of an audience of folks like Dionne Warwick, Gladys Knight and who knows else, and she's doing this? It was painful. I imagine her peers were shaking their heads and thinking "My how the mighty has fallen".

TOUCH BY TOUCH from the Swept Away album.

[sup_fan]

she also did Eaten Alive on the AMA's. at least with this version you can hear the lyrics, as non-sensicle as they are

[vgalindo]

TOUCH BY TOUCH from the Swept Away album.
I thought “Touch by Touch” was perfect for the opening of the AMA. She looked so beautiful and the song was a good choice with all the dancers and props.

[midnightman]

Diana definitely wanted control. She had seen her peers get control and she wanted to assert herself more. I think even she would admit nowadays that she bit off more than she could chew.

[florence]

Some interesting thoughts there on her move from Motown.

I think it was surely chiefly monetary.

It has been suggested that Motown was deliberately underquoting sales levels in order to avoid paying royalties to artists.

J. Randy Taraborrelli claimed that Diana was furious and thought she was being lied to when she received her Royalty cheque for It's My Turn for sales somewhere below 450k - the record had reached 9 in the Billboard Top 100 and was 21 weeks in the chart.

Apparently this was a major bone of contention between Diana and Berry.

However it could be that the record didn't sell as well as thought.

Generally Diana's bigger hits all charted higher in Cash Box and Record World [[Reach Out And Touch, Remember Me and Last Time I Saw Him all going To 10) yet It's My Turn peaked at #18 on CB and #20 on RW.

There were also suggestions that Berry Gordy Jnr. had "bought" the placing on BB in an effort to persuade Diana that her future remained bright with Motown.

Who knows!

[marv2]

Some interesting thoughts there on her move from Motown.

I think it was surely chiefly monetary.

It has been suggested that Motown was deliberately underquoting sales levels in order to avoid paying royalties to artists.

J. Randy Taraborrelli claimed that Diana was furious and thought she was being lied to when she received her Royalty cheque for It's My Turn for sales somewhere below 450k - the record had reached 9 in the Billboard Top 100 and was 21 weeks in the chart.

Apparently this was a major bone of contention between Diana and Berry.

However it could be that the record didn't sell as well as thought.

Generally Diana's bigger hits all charted higher in Cash Box and Record World [[Reach Out And Touch, Remember Me and Last Time I Saw Him all going To 10) yet It's My Turn peaked at #18 on CB and #20 on RW.

There were also suggestions that Berry Gordy Jnr. had "bought" the placing on BB in an effort to persuade Diana that her future remained bright with Motown.

Who knows!

I wished I could tell you what one of his lawyers from back in the 60s said one day in NYC while I was waiting for meeting, but I can't LOL!

Anyway, It has been said that the Supremes would only receive something between $6-7,000 each for a million selling single back in the 60s. That's peanuts. They also had a royalty rate of 3 cents per single which was split between the 3 of them .

[Boogiedown]

Did any artist walk away from Motown feeling set for life?
Lionel Richie seems to want to have nothing to do with the association.....

[Boogiedown]

Indeed. Her daughters were in a boarding school in Switzerland [[or wherever). It's not like she was picking them up from soccer practice three days a week. It's astonishing that anyone -- including the drama queen[[s) of SD -- could think that the lack of creativity and subpar quality of the RCA catalog was due to Ross's devotion to her family.

.

hee hee----

[marv2]

Because it's a bunch of boloney. Career women, then as now, find a way to juggle career and motherhood. It's difficult, but not impossible. Diana's priority was her family, and that's one of the reasons why I love this woman I have never met. So many showbiz folks put career ahead of family and then when the kids grow up, the tell alls come out, or the entertainer finds him/herself in a place where they suddenly realize that the money and fame ultimately were not worth the price of the sacrifice of the relationship with their children. Blessedly Diana will not be counted among that type. But the demands of family are never a reason for subpar work and only in a forum full of fanatics would such a thought be popular with anyone. Her RCA period showcased a mostly lazy artistic approach to recording. That the same woman who recorded beautiful renditions of Rodgers and Hart classics in the 60s and well received tracks of Billie Holiday numbers in the 70s could then turn around and record abysmal covers like "Rescue Me" and "Mr. Lee", had to boggle the minds of every non member of the Church of Diana during the RCA years.

They said that because Mary Wilson had 2 babies between 1977-79 that was no excuse for her not working more on her career during those years:

https://soulfuldetroit.com/showthread.php?22075-Mary-Wilson-June-13-1977-August-27-1979&highlight=Mary+Wilson+1977

[marv2]

hee hee----

They are full of sh*t here. Here's a thread from here that have people saying Mary Wilson having 2 babies and a toddler during the years 1977-79 was no excuse for her not working more on her career during those years:

https://soulfuldetroit.com/showthread.php?22075-Mary-Wilson-June-13-1977-August-27-1979&highlight=Mary+Wilson+1977

[marv2]

Did any artist walk away from Motown feeling set for life?
Lionel Richie seems to want to have nothing to do with the association.....

The only 2 or 3 I can think of are Smokey Robinson, Lionel Richie and Stevie Wonder [[although Stevie has never really left the label). All others had to work and work hard after leaving Motown to get some money!

[PeaceNHarmony]

Well Diana never disappointed me. Her RCA years were very exciting for me. The huge arena tours, new posters, beautiful tour programs at every new tour. A new album every year. The Central Park concert. I miss these times of her career. She was at the height of her fame. And I loved the music!And I as well!

[Albator]

for the early years at RCA, it seems that her whole focus was "oh yes i can!"

yes i can be a producer, yes i can sing 10,000 different musical styles from hard rock and roll to reggae to pop, yes i can handle all aspects of my career.

after being controlled for so long, the first couple years simply seem to be her experimenting for the sake of experimenting

then we approach the mid 80s and she's now 40 years old. she might have been panicked a bit by the arrival of the new female pop stars and so she desperately attempts to be trendy with her music
Great post !!!

[midnightman]

Did any artist walk away from Motown feeling set for life?
Lionel Richie seems to want to have nothing to do with the association.....

No.

Marvin left the label in humongous debt but apparently the Motown exit [[and later Larkin Arnold's Columbia contract stipulations were set to straighten out the debt, which wasn't broadcast for public exposure in fear it would backfire on Marvin's comeback).

The Jackson 5 had to tour more often than they should have because Joe didn't read the parts where Motown would own their name and that they only received 2.7% royalties from their work.

Mary Wells, we know what happened to her after she left Motown.

DeBarge had to sign away their full rights to leave. Only El gets paid more via songwriting royalties from their songs, least in comparison to Randy and Bunny. And none of them wrote their biggest hit, "Rhythm of the Night".

The only one who could've left with a clean slate by this point was Stevie but he's chosen to stay. Lionel and Smokey wrote virtually all of their big hits so they were and remain set.

[midnightman]

Some interesting thoughts there on her move from Motown.

I think it was surely chiefly monetary.

It has been suggested that Motown was deliberately underquoting sales levels in order to avoid paying royalties to artists.

J. Randy Taraborrelli claimed that Diana was furious and thought she was being lied to when she received her Royalty cheque for It's My Turn for sales somewhere below 450k - the record had reached 9 in the Billboard Top 100 and was 21 weeks in the chart.

Apparently this was a major bone of contention between Diana and Berry.

However it could be that the record didn't sell as well as thought.

Generally Diana's bigger hits all charted higher in Cash Box and Record World [[Reach Out And Touch, Remember Me and Last Time I Saw Him all going To 10) yet It's My Turn peaked at #18 on CB and #20 on RW.

There were also suggestions that Berry Gordy Jnr. had "bought" the placing on BB in an effort to persuade Diana that her future remained bright with Motown.

Who knows!

Berry had each act sign with the same royalty rate, one of the lowest in the business and this was in an era when folks signed for peanuts and quick money. So the Supremes got the same type of contract EVERY other Motown artist signed. Meaning if their records sold extremely well, they would only receive less than $10k apiece.

[Ollie9]

for the early years at RCA, it seems that her whole focus was "oh yes i can!"

yes i can be a producer, yes i can sing 10,000 different musical styles from hard rock and roll to reggae to pop, yes i can handle all aspects of my career.

after being controlled for so long, the first couple years simply seem to be her experimenting for the sake of experimenting

then we approach the mid 80s and she's now 40 years old. she might have been panicked a bit by the arrival of the new female pop stars and so she desperately attempts to be trendy with her music

Financial gain aside, i think you have probably hit the proverbial nail on the head.
i do question her musicality at the time if she really considered those first two rca albums well produced. To anyone with an ear for music the production was clearly lacking. Was it a question of it's not great but put it out anyway or did she truly believe she had done a great job?.
Diana is a wonderful singer and can interpret a song like no other. Having said that i think she lacks a natural musical instinct that a producer has to have.

[Bluebrock]

Financial gain aside, i think you have probably hit the proverbial nail on the head.
i do question her musicality at the time if she really considered those first two rca albums well produced. To anyone with an ear for music the production was clearly lacking. Was it a question of it's not great but put it out anyway or did she truly believe she had done a great job?.
Diana is a wonderful singer and can interpret a song like no other. Having said that i think she lacks a natural musical instinct that a producer has to have.

I honestly don't know if she thought she had done a good job on those two albums. I suspect not but both rca and her wanted to deliver an album asap to cash in on the Chic album and of course Endless Love. Quincy was not yet available and it would have been very difficult to hire a top notch producer on such short notice.
Had wdffil flopped she may well have called on Quincy or even Michael Jackson to oversee the follow up , but because it was a success she pressed ahead and produced another remarkably unremarkable album. What more is there to say?

[Guy]

I honestly don't know if she thought she had done a good job on those two albums. I suspect not but both rca and her wanted to deliver an album asap to cash in on the Chic album and of course Endless Love. Quincy was not yet available and it would have been very difficult to hire a top notch producer on such short notice.
Had wdffil flopped she may well have called on Quincy or even Michael Jackson to oversee the follow up , but because it was a success she pressed ahead and produced another remarkably unremarkable album. What more is there to say?

Ashford and Simpson? They could have helped with good songs, cohesion and pop crossover dreams. It wasn't strictly the production with the RCA albums. The songs were either subpar or a poor fit for Ross. So much so that when she did finally utilize solid producers -- Gary Katz, Ray Parker Jr., etc. -- the end-product still underwhelmed.

I applaud the effort of our fellow SD-ers who tried to refashion a different
RCA debut from the entirety of her RCA catalog. If I compiled my favorite RCA tracks I would know immediately that it was not a hit album.

Nothing she did at RCA is an appropriate follow-up to those fireworks set off by Chic, A&S and Michael Masser at the end of her Motown days. There were some enjoyable moments but unworthy of her stature in the industry. The concert setlist of the last 20 years is her own acknowledgment of this.

[Roberta75]

They said that because Mary Wilson had 2 babies between 1977-79 that was no excuse for her not working more on her career during those years:

https://soulfuldetroit.com/showthread.php?22075-Mary-Wilson-June-13-1977-August-27-1979&highlight=Mary+Wilson+1977

Digging in the archives is great fun. This blast from the past always makes me laugh real loud.

"Originally Posted by marv2 https://ci6.googleusercontent.com/proxy/DXTsS3zXvP_SNdXEEr8wHGQVQ5_qF3U_4CZN2tq-Hc6Hw7tqm2yH5g5QDCTlCmzYEQiO-Ugf3WuNfa0enZ9eBNT9A1H5Fwb7hi88bn5P=s0-d-e1-ft#http://soulfuldetroit.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png [[http://soulfuldetroit.com/showthread.php?p=353706#post353706) October 2016
I don't even go into most Diana Ross threads on here."

[jobeterob]

Cashbox and Record World had larger sales components than Billboard who relied more on radio play than the other two

When Taraborelli re wrote Call Her Miss Ross he deleted all his sales information. I’ve always wondered if he found out it was unreliable

[Guy]

Digging in the archives is great fun. This blast from the past always makes me laugh real loud.

"Originally Posted by marv2 https://ci6.googleusercontent.com/proxy/DXTsS3zXvP_SNdXEEr8wHGQVQ5_qF3U_4CZN2tq-Hc6Hw7tqm2yH5g5QDCTlCmzYEQiO-Ugf3WuNfa0enZ9eBNT9A1H5Fwb7hi88bn5P=s0-d-e1-ft#http://soulfuldetroit.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png [[http://soulfuldetroit.com/showthread.php?p=353706#post353706) October 2016
I don't even go into most Diana Ross threads on here."



But there are like 7 billion Ross threads, so it could be true that he does not go to "most."

[midnightman]

Cashbox and Record World had larger sales components than Billboard who relied more on radio play than the other two

When Taraborelli re wrote Call Her Miss Ross he deleted all his sales information. I’ve always wondered if he found out it was unreliable

That's true!

[jobeterob]

But there are like 7 billion Ross threads, so it could be true that he does not go to "most."

Could but it isn’t; he’s on every Ross thread

[Ollie9]

I applaud the effort of our fellow SD-ers who tried to refashion a different
RCA debut from the entirety of her RCA catalog. If I compiled my favorite RCA tracks I would know immediately that it was not a hit album.
Nothing she did at RCA is an appropriate follow-up to those fireworks set off by Chic, A&S and Michael Masser at the end of her Motown days. There were some enjoyable moments but unworthy of her stature in the industry. The concert setlist of the last 20 years is her own acknowledgment of this.

I would say there there are a sprinkling of songs that were as good as anything she recorded at motown Guy. "Muscles", "Missing You", "Chain Reaction", "Summertime" to name but four. Enough to Fill an album. Considering the seven year time period it's really nothing to applaud.

[florence]

Cashbox and Record World had larger sales components than Billboard who relied more on radio play than the other two

When Taraborelli re wrote Call Her Miss Ross he deleted all his sales information. I’ve always wondered if he found out it was unreliable

Or he could have been threatened with Legal Action.

Apparently he had been supplied with many figures by an insider at Motown.

They may very well be unreliable but my personal hunch is that they were correct. Unless someone was very clever and took a long time to compile them because they stand up to scrutiny relative to each other.

However, no way of knowing you have to decide for yourself.

[RanRan79]

then we approach the mid 80s and she's now 40 years old. she might have been panicked a bit by the arrival of the new female pop stars and so she desperately attempts to be trendy with her music

That's the reason I usually give. She was trying to compete with the girls who wished they could be her. What a shame. The lady has always been competitive, but you would think at that point in her life she'd be past trying to compete and just be herself. Most of that RCA stuff was not artistically Diana. It was Diana trying to make a buck and the music suffered.

[RanRan79]

TOUCH BY TOUCH from the Swept Away album.

Thanks Reese. That's the one.


she also did Eaten Alive on the AMA's. at least with this version you can hear the lyrics, as non-sensicle as they are

With the exception of Diana coming into the song too early during a part, I thought her performance here was pretty good. It's actually the reason I started liking the song. I liked the video as a kid, but as an adult I thought the song was stupid until I saw her do it live.

But the fact that she was doing songs from two albums that were no longer worth promoting [[I'm sure there's a certain amount of logic here, that no matter how much time has passed, promoting an album may still result in some additional sales which equals a few extra dollars) makes no sense. I kind'a get "Eaten Alive" as that was the last song to that point that a large percentage of the audience and viewing audience probably remembered from her, but "Touch By Touch"? Why not "Missing You"? Or even "Swept Away"? Hell, if she wanted to further promote the EA album, why not do "Chain Reaction"? Or she could have done a big hit from the year if that artist wasn't at the ceremony.

[RanRan79]

Diana is a wonderful singer and can interpret a song like no other. Having said that i think she lacks a natural musical instinct that a producer has to have.

1000 percent agree. Producing just isn't her strong point. I think she's a producer's dream as a vocalist. She should've milked that.

[RanRan79]

Ashford and Simpson? They could have helped with good songs, cohesion and pop crossover dreams. It wasn't strictly the production with the RCA albums. The songs were either subpar or a poor fit for Ross. So much so that when she did finally utilize solid producers -- Gary Katz, Ray Parker Jr., etc. -- the end-product still underwhelmed.

I applaud the effort of our fellow SD-ers who tried to refashion a different
RCA debut from the entirety of her RCA catalog. If I compiled my favorite RCA tracks I would know immediately that it was not a hit album.

Nothing she did at RCA is an appropriate follow-up to those fireworks set off by Chic, A&S and Michael Masser at the end of her Motown days. There were some enjoyable moments but unworthy of her stature in the industry. The concert setlist of the last 20 years is her own acknowledgment of this.

I think "Mirror, Mirror" was as good as the Chic stuff, and it resonated with the public because it was hip and a good fit. Of course I cannot explain how "Fools" the single became a hit, other than suggesting that for the first single Diana could've done anything and the public would've ate it up. "Mirror", the track to "Work That Body" [[not to be confused with the lyrics to "Work That Body":p), "Swept Away", "Missing You" and even "Chain Reaction" were worthy of Ross' talents. She needed more hits that were worthy and she needed full albums that were worthy. She lucked up on a few worthy singles here and there but just never cut anything like the 1970 debut, Surrender, TMITM, the Hangover album, BIM, The Boss or the Chic album, all bonafide classics. Her RCA albums will never be spoken about like those Motown ones because the qualities of the two sets are ridiculously set too far apart.

[RanRan79]

Could but it isn’t; he’s on every Ross thread

Then he's in good company with all the ones who swear up and down that they have no interest in Mary Wilson yet somehow indeed up in most of the threads with her name in the title. At this point there's really nothing to see here.

[RanRan79]

I would say there there are a sprinkling of songs that were as good as anything she recorded at motown Guy. "Muscles", "Missing You", "Chain Reaction", "Summertime" to name but four. Enough to Fill an album. Considering the seven year time period it's really nothing to applaud.

I agree [[except for "Summertime"). I'll have to think about album cuts that are as or near as brilliant as her Motown stuff, but I'm not sure I'll be able to come up with anything.

[reese]

Thanks Reese. That's the one.



With the exception of Diana coming into the song too early during a part, I thought her performance here was pretty good. It's actually the reason I started liking the song. I liked the video as a kid, but as an adult I thought the song was stupid until I saw her do it live.

But the fact that she was doing songs from two albums that were no longer worth promoting [[I'm sure there's a certain amount of logic here, that no matter how much time has passed, promoting an album may still result in some additional sales which equals a few extra dollars) makes no sense. I kind'a get "Eaten Alive" as that was the last song to that point that a large percentage of the audience and viewing audience probably remembered from her, but "Touch By Touch"? Why not "Missing You"? Or even "Swept Away"? Hell, if she wanted to further promote the EA album, why not do "Chain Reaction"? Or she could have done a big hit from the year if that artist wasn't at the ceremony.

I was baffled by the choice of TOUCH BY TOUCH as an opening number for the 1987 AMAs as well, even though I enjoyed the performance. But she didn't have a current album to promote. EATEN ALIVE was more than a year old at that point and she had already performed the title track as well as CHAIN REACTION at the previous year's ceremony when they were still recent releases. The MISSING YOU video was shown the year before that.

I do think it was nice for the 1987 awards that she did a group of Billie Holiday songs, even though I think the segment went a tad too long. Maybe a nice Supremes medley could have opened the show that year.

[Guy]

I would say there there are a sprinkling of songs that were as good as anything she recorded at motown Guy. "Muscles", "Missing You", "Chain Reaction", "Summertime" to name but four. Enough to Fill an album. Considering the seven year time period it's really nothing to applaud.

I am going to have to disagree, Ollie9. I am not talking about the Motown filler. Nothing she recorded at RCA is the equal of the finest moments at Motown. Nothing.

She had enjoyable moments at RCA. I love "Telephone" but it is not the equal of "The Boss." "Summertime" is no more exquisite than "Friend To Friend" or "Do You Know Where You're Going To." "Muscles" can't compete with "Love Hangover."

Her best moments at RCA were those that were vaguely reminiscent of her Motown output [["Let's Go Up", "Missing You", etc.) Her worst moments were when she was trying to be someone other than Diana Ross [[ "Fool For Your Love", "We Are The Children...", etc.)

[Guy]

I think "Mirror, Mirror" was as good as the Chic stuff...

HERESY!!!!

I like you, RanRan79. So I am going to pretend like you never said that.

[RanRan79]

I was baffled by the choice of TOUCH BY TOUCH as an opening number for the 1987 AMAs as well, even though I enjoyed the performance. But she didn't have a current album to promote. EATEN ALIVE was more than a year old at that point and she had already performed the title track as well as CHAIN REACTION at the previous year's ceremony when they were still recent releases. The MISSING YOU video was shown the year before that.

I do think it was nice for the 1987 awards that she did a group of Billie Holiday songs, even though I think the segment went a tad too long. Maybe a nice Supremes medley could have opened the show that year.

I don't recall seeing the Billie Holiday spot. I'll have to look for it and return with my commentary.

[RanRan79]

I am going to have to disagree, Ollie9. I am not talking about the Motown filler. Nothing she recorded at RCA is the equal of the finest moments at Motown. Nothing.

She had enjoyable moments at RCA. I love "Telephone" but it is not the equal of "The Boss." "Summertime" is no more exquisite than "Friend To Friend" or "Do You Know Where You're Going To." "Muscles" can't compete with "Love Hangover."

Her best moments at RCA were those that were vaguely reminiscent of her Motown output [["Let's Go Up", "Missing You", etc.) Her worst moments were when she was trying to be someone other than Diana Ross [[ "Fool For Your Love", "We Are The Children...", etc.)

IMO "Mirror, Mirror", "Swept Away", and "Missing You" was better than "Reach Out I'll Be There", "My Mistake", "Last Time I Saw Him", "Theme From Mahogany" [[a song I LOATH), "Your Love Is So Good For Me", and "One More Chance". As fantastic as Diana's Motown tenure was, let us not forget she didn't always lay golden eggs. Some of that stuff stunk too. [[Not that all the songs I listed "stink", but I do believe my fav RCA cuts are better overall songs than the Motown singles I just listed.)

Believe it or not, I actually love "Fool For Your Love", but that's in spite of the fact that it was not a direction Ross needed to be moving into. But I do love that it further illustrated her ability to sing it all.

[RanRan79]

HERESY!!!!

I like you, RanRan79. So I am going to pretend like you never said that.

LOL Come on now. You gotta like me even when you think I make no sense.

Well first you have to consider that I am not a fan of the Chic sound for anyone, although I concede that commercially it worked for Diana. But "Mirror, Mirror" has a great lyric, a great chorus, the track is funky, which is exactly where Ross needed to be after what she had done with Chic. Yeah, "Mirror, Mirror" isn't second rate. It's the first first rate thing she did at RCA. Unfortunately she rarely duplicated it.

[vgalindo]

Thanks Reese. That's the one.



With the exception of Diana coming into the song too early during a part, I thought her performance here was pretty good. It's actually the reason I started liking the song. I liked the video as a kid, but as an adult I thought the song was stupid until I saw her do it live.

But the fact that she was doing songs from two albums that were no longer worth promoting [[I'm sure there's a certain amount of logic here, that no matter how much time has passed, promoting an album may still result in some additional sales which equals a few extra dollars) makes no sense. I kind'a get "Eaten Alive" as that was the last song to that point that a large percentage of the audience and viewing audience probably remembered from her, but "Touch By Touch"? Why not "Missing You"? Or even "Swept Away"? Hell, if she wanted to further promote the EA album, why not do "Chain Reaction"? Or she could have done a big hit from the year if that artist wasn't at the ceremony.
She did do Chain Reaction on the show as well. I do agree though. I really didn’t know why she did “Touch by touch” since it wasn’t even a single. I guess it was chosen because it fit for the big opening with all the dancers and props.

[Guy]

IMO "Mirror, Mirror", "Swept Away", and "Missing You" was better than "Reach Out I'll Be There", "My Mistake", "Last Time I Saw Him", "Theme From Mahogany" [[a song I LOATH), "Your Love Is So Good For Me", and "One More Chance". As fantastic as Diana's Motown tenure was, let us not forget she didn't always lay golden eggs. Some of that stuff stunk too. [[Not that all the songs I listed "stink", but I do believe my fav RCA cuts are better overall songs than the Motown singles I just listed.)

Believe it or not, I actually love "Fool For Your Love", but that's in spite of the fact that it was not a direction Ross needed to be moving into. But I do love that it further illustrated her ability to sing it all.

Well, I'll just note that even though "Mirror, Mirror" was a top 10 pop hit and "The Boss" was not, you rarely hear MM in her live show but she ALWAYS includes "The Boss." As for "Swept Away" -- I have never heard her sing that in 30 years of live performances. "Missing You" is lovely and was used in a recent-ish tour as a Motown and MJ tribute. But I've not heard it in while.

Of course, not every Motown track was great. But all of her magical moments as a recording artist were at Motown. I happen to think "Reach Out, I'll Be There" is one. Her vocal is wonderful and those background vocals are on fire. She loves it, too. She brought it back for the ill-fated "Return To Love" tour. And it was one of many high points of her 2004 "comeback" show at the Pantages Theatre in Hollywood.

The only proof we need that the RCA years are better left to history is that she doesn't consistently sing anything from that period except WDFFIL. She has only occasionally sung "Missing You" or "Chain Reaction" but otherwise her setlist is strictly Motown...and some of that "I Love You" mess.

P.S. I've noted for the official record that "Fool For Your Love" does not make YOUR ears bleed -- and that Florence likes "Shockwaves."

[khansperac]

Mirror mirror was always a part of her shows up until the 2000’s. Then she dropped it. I believe she sang it this year at her birthday gig. Missing you was also always in her act. She only sometimes does it now. Those 2 plus fools were the guaranteed RCA songs she would sing.

[reese]

Many of the RCA songs like MIRROR, MIRROR, CHAIN REACTION, and MISSING YOU were dropped when her show's running length became shorter. Ditto for ENDLESS LOVE and most numbers from LADY besides DON'T EXPLAIN.

I also think she does the songs that accommodate her current register. The last time I heard her sing MIRROR MIRROR, MISSING YOU, and ENDLESS LOVE in concert, I noticed the keys were lower.

[Bluebrock]

Well, I'll just note that even though "Mirror, Mirror" was a top 10 pop hit and "The Boss" was not, you rarely hear MM in her live show but she ALWAYS includes "The Boss." As for "Swept Away" -- I have never heard her sing that in 30 years of live performances. "Missing You" is lovely and was used in a recent-ish tour as a Motown and MJ tribute. But I've not heard it in while.

Of course, not every Motown track was great. But all of her magical moments as a recording artist were at Motown. I happen to think "Reach Out, I'll Be There" is one. Her vocal is wonderful and those background vocals are on fire. She loves it, too. She brought it back for the ill-fated "Return To Love" tour. And it was one of many high points of her 2004 "comeback" show at the Pantages Theatre in Hollywood.

The only proof we need that the RCA years are better left to history is that she doesn't consistently sing anything from that period except WDFFIL. She has only occasionally sung "Missing You" or "Chain Reaction" but otherwise her setlist is strictly Motown...and some of that "I Love You" mess.

P.S. I've noted for the official record that "Fool For Your Love" does not make YOUR ears bleed -- and that Florence likes "Shockwaves."
In agree with you about "reach out i'll be there'. It is one of Diana's most committed vocal performances and Nick and Val's production is quite sublime.
slightly off topic, it was Luther Vandross's personal favorite performance by Diana so we are in exhalted company!

[Ollie9]

I am going to have to disagree, Ollie9. I am not talking about the Motown filler. Nothing she recorded at RCA is the equal of the finest moments at Motown. Nothing.

She had enjoyable moments at RCA. I love "Telephone" but it is not the equal of "The Boss." "Summertime" is no more exquisite than "Friend To Friend" or "Do You Know Where You're Going To." "Muscles" can't compete with "Love Hangover."

Her best moments at RCA were those that were vaguely reminiscent of her Motown output [["Let's Go Up", "Missing You", etc.) Her worst moments were when she was trying to be someone other than Diana Ross [[ "Fool For Your Love", "We Are The Children...", etc.)

I would add "Telephone" "More And More" and "Love Will Make It Right to songs that i think stand up well to many of her motown recordings.
I disagree in that i find "Summertime" as exquisite as many of her motown classics and "Telephone" as good as any of the songs on the diana album.
Worst songs for me are the vanilla pop confections as in "Anywhere You Run To", "Never To Late" "Two Can Make It" "Children".....Aghhhh.

[RanRan79]

Well, I'll just note that even though "Mirror, Mirror" was a top 10 pop hit and "The Boss" was not, you rarely hear MM in her live show but she ALWAYS includes "The Boss." As for "Swept Away" -- I have never heard her sing that in 30 years of live performances. "Missing You" is lovely and was used in a recent-ish tour as a Motown and MJ tribute. But I've not heard it in while.

The only proof we need that the RCA years are better left to history is that she doesn't consistently sing anything from that period except WDFFIL. She has only occasionally sung "Missing You" or "Chain Reaction" but otherwise her setlist is strictly Motown...and some of that "I Love You" mess.


Perhaps, but that can't be used as evidence of those RCA songs being deemed of less quality than her Motown songs. Those songs have been in her act since leaving RCA. When's the last time she did "Someday We'll Be Together"? Or "Surrender"? Or "I Thought It Took A Little"? And certainly none of those songs are of any less quality than stuff like "I Will Survive" which Diana performs as if she was the one who had a hit with it.:rolleyes: I think her RCA period is often left for the history books as opposed to Diana's shows because we fans generally regard the music as forgettable. As I said before, most of it was second rate- some even third rate- to most of what she recorded at Motown. But for me there are exceptions to that rule.



Of course, not every Motown track was great. But all of her magical moments as a recording artist were at Motown. I happen to think "Reach Out, I'll Be There" is one. Her vocal is wonderful and those background vocals are on fire. She loves it, too. She brought it back for the ill-fated "Return To Love" tour. And it was one of many high points of her 2004 "comeback" show at the Pantages Theatre in Hollywood.

I absolutely agree about "Reach Out I'll Be There". One of Diana's finest vocal performances. Maybe I should've left it off the list because I can see how my opinion of it might have been confusing, but it was on the list because it was a horrible choice as a single, unlike the songs I highlighted at RCA which were perfect choices. As for the magic of Ross, I guess when one hears the magic it's always a subjective time. Those songs I mentioned as being A quality RCA cuts, IMO, can't be quality unless Diana's magic is present. That's key to me loving any Ross song, regardless of record label.


P.S. I've noted for the official record that "Fool For Your Love" does not make YOUR ears bleed -- and that Florence likes "Shockwaves."

Add me in for "Shockwaves" also Guy.:cool:

[Guy]

In agree with you about "reach out i'll be there'. It is one of Diana's most committed vocal performances and Nick and Val's production is quite sublime.
slightly off topic, it was Luther Vandross's personal favorite performance by Diana so we are in exhalted company!

Bluebrock, thanks for that info. Luther is never off-topic as far as I'm concerned. He was a Ross connoisseur, and his talent for background vocal arrangement and execution is legendary. So hearing that he loved ROIBT made my day. We are indeed in esteemed company.

[midnightman]

The rearrangement of ROIBT fits what Luther did with his covers so that is no surprise to me at all. It is one of Diana's greatest recordings as a solo artist! It deserves to be as big of a hit as ANMHE was. Motown dropped the ball on this. Should've been way up than it was.

[jobeterob]

Many of the RCA songs like MIRROR, MIRROR, CHAIN REACTION, and MISSING YOU were dropped when her show's running length became shorter. Ditto for ENDLESS LOVE and most numbers from LADY besides DON'T EXPLAIN.

I also think she does the songs that accommodate her current register. The last time I heard her sing MIRROR MIRROR, MISSING YOU, and ENDLESS LOVE in concert, I noticed the keys were lower.

I believe this offers a lot of explanation for song choices she has made for her current concerts

[Bluebrock]

Bluebrock, thanks for that info. Luther is never off-topic as far as I'm concerned. He was a Ross connoisseur, and his talent for background vocal arrangement and execution is legendary. So hearing that he loved ROIBT made my day. We are indeed in esteemed company.
You are most welcome Guy. I am sure Luther would have produced a strong album on Diana. He had a couple of classic songs in mind for her to cover but i cannot recall what they were without consulting my diaries which are currently stored away. He also intended to include a duet between the two legends. It is so frustrating that she was having none of it. You only need to listen to the beautiful "it's hard for me to say" to get a glimpse of what sweet music they could have made together.

[florence]

In the end it's all a matter of personal taste.

Yes, the Motown albums on the whole performed better than the RCA output but give me Silk Electric, Swept Away or Eaten Alive any time over many of the Motown ones such as diana.

I loved Upside Down and My Old Piano but the other tracks did little for me even I'm Coming Out - I just the thought the melody was off-key.

I know this is a minority view.

I'm one of the UK public who loved her ballads such as Still In Love, Love Lies or In Your Arms from Silk Electric for example.

EMI in the UK missed some golden opportunities to capitalise on several surefire hits during the 70s.

[Ollie9]

In the end it's all a matter of personal taste.

Yes, the Motown albums on the whole performed better than the RCA output but give me Silk Electric, Swept Away or Eaten Alive any time over many of the Motown ones such as diana.

I loved Upside Down and My Old Piano but the other tracks did little for me even I'm Coming Out - I just the thought the melody was off-key.

I know this is a minority view.

I'm one of the UK public who loved her ballads such as Still In Love, Love Lies or In Your Arms from Silk Electric for example.

EMI in the UK missed some golden opportunities to capitalise on several surefire hits during the 70s.

Had Eaten Alive been the follow up to WDFFIL i think Diana would have scored some hits from the album.
She lost one hell of a lot of momentum following the release of Silk Electric. Everyone i knew at the time thought it awful and the reviews were terrible [[UK). Had it not been for "Muscles" the whole thing would have been a disaster. The album sold quite well simply because Diana was at the peak of her popularity.

[Bluebrock]

Had Eaten Alive been the follow up to WDFFIL i think Diana would have scored some hits from the album.
She lost one hell of a lot of momentum following the release of Silk Electric. Everyone i knew at the time thought it awful and the reviews were terrible [[UK). Had it not been for "Muscles" the whole thing would have been a disaster. The album sold quite well simply because Diana was at the peak of her popularity.
The only positive thing i can say about Silk Electric is that it wasn't quite as bad as Why do Fools . Almost but not quite.

[Bluebrock]

In the end it's all a matter of personal taste.

Yes, the Motown albums on the whole performed better than the RCA output but give me Silk Electric, Swept Away or Eaten Alive any time over many of the Motown ones such as diana.

I loved Upside Down and My Old Piano but the other tracks did little for me even I'm Coming Out - I just the thought the melody was off-key.

I know this is a minority view.

I'm one of the UK public who loved her ballads such as Still In Love, Love Lies or In Your Arms from Silk Electric for example.

EMI in the UK missed some golden opportunities to capitalise on several surefire hits during the 70s.
Minority opinions are every bit as valid as majority opinions Florence.
Your posts are always interesting and informative. Respect to you.

[SatansBlues]

You are most welcome Guy. I am sure Luther would have produced a strong album on Diana. He had a couple of classic songs in mind for her to cover but i cannot recall what they were without consulting my diaries which are currently stored away. He also intended to include a duet between the two legends. It is so frustrating that she was having none of it. You only need to listen to the beautiful "it's hard for me to say" to get a glimpse of what sweet music they could have made together.

I think Luther was probably too much of an R&B artist for DR. Luther was good in his musical lane but did not have the same crossover success as Ross did. I've always viewed Ross as a R&B/Pop hybrid star and recording artist, not pure pop and not a typical R&B artist. There were certain producers who could straddle that line when producing Ross, most specifically Ashford & Simpson. I think Diana Ross has shined the most on songs that make you either want to dance to or sing along to- lead or background. I'm not sure that Luther would have been able to do that for Ross.

[marv2]

I think Luther was probably too much of an R&B artist for DR. Luther was good in his musical lane but did not have the same crossover success as Ross did. I've always viewed Ross as a R&B/Pop hybrid star and recording artist, not pure pop and not a typical R&B artist. There were certain producers who could straddle that line when producing Ross, most specifically Ashford & Simpson. I think Diana Ross has shined the most on songs that make you either want to dance to or sing along to- lead or background. I'm not sure that Luther would have been able to do that for Ross.

Yet Luther worked with Aretha Franklin, Dionne Warwick, Mariah Carey, Janet Jackson, Whitney Houston, Richard Marx, etc,etc. Diana Ross is just stupid and has zero talent as a producer. She should have taken Tyler Perry up on his movie offer, no one else wants her!

[TNSUN]

It's Hard for Me to say but I divaly disagree with you on this point.
An album by DR, produced by Luther would have been a delight.
I am grateful for the few gems Luther was involved with DR.
Just imagine a duets album, "Luther and Diana"!
I guess a road to divaville never led to hitsville!

[sup_fan]

It's Hard for Me to say but I divaly disagree with you on this point.
An album by DR, produced by Luther would have been a delight.
I am grateful for the few gems Luther was involved with DR.
Just imagine a duets album, "Luther and Diana"!
I guess a road to divaville never led to hitsville!

it certainly would have been preferred to the Eaten Alive mess. much of that album i find to be un-listenable.

[sup_fan]

In the end it's all a matter of personal taste.

Yes, the Motown albums on the whole performed better than the RCA output but give me Silk Electric, Swept Away or Eaten Alive any time over many of the Motown ones such as diana.

I loved Upside Down and My Old Piano but the other tracks did little for me even I'm Coming Out - I just the thought the melody was off-key.

I know this is a minority view.

I'm one of the UK public who loved her ballads such as Still In Love, Love Lies or In Your Arms from Silk Electric for example.

EMI in the UK missed some golden opportunities to capitalise on several surefire hits during the 70s.

Flo i'm gonna echo Bluebrock's comments. your thoughts here are so interesting. please keep sharing! :)


I do find her early rca material to be enjoyable. maybe not meeting the lofty standards associated with her final motown content but i don't find WDFFIL and SE to be hideous.

As for diana 80, i enjoy that album a lot and do appreciate the urban sound they achieved. some list it as a DR masterpiece and i would NOT go that far at all. Her performances are fine but no where near the vocal quality and interpretation she did on either Baby It's Me or The Boss. I have diana 80 to be a masterful, calculated move but not an artistic one

[Bluebrock]

Yet Luther worked with Aretha Franklin, Dionne Warwick, Mariah Carey, Janet Jackson, Whitney Houston, Richard Marx, etc,etc. Diana Ross is just stupid and has zero talent as a producer. She should have taken Tyler Perry up on his movie offer, no one else wants her!

You are very angry again i see.
Luther did work with Diana on "it's hard for me to say" and also did some arranging and backing vocals on Silk Electric. I think he just produced the one song on Whitney too.He also just worked on one song with Mariah and Janet Jackson . Did he do more work with Richard Marx than he did with Diana? And who are the etc,etc?Not sure i have heard of them. What genre are they and on what songs did Luther work with them?
I hope that anger and bitterness in your soul that threatens to eat you up subsides soon.
I hope you find the inner peace and happiness that has thus far eluded you . Hope springs eternal.

[Ollie9]

it certainly would have been preferred to the Eaten Alive mess. much of that album i find to be un-listenable.

As you yourself have pointed out sup, it's kind of interesting to read fans different takes on certain albums. For me Silk Electric is the antithesis of everything she should not have done whereas Eaten Alive is a fairly decent attempt at creating a good album. Not great by any means, but most certainly respectable.

[Levi Stubbs Tears]

If 'Swept Away' and 'Eaten Alive' had been Diana's first two albums for RCA she would have had a much better run of success after leaving Motown. Though not perfect, they were at least albums not just a bunch of songs thrown together like a cheap K-Tel compilation.

Better still if the Eaten Alive song was cut altogether and another Gibb song [[eg Islands in The Stream - originally written with Diana in mind I think) had replaced it. The album could have been renamed 'Experience' ;)

[Bluebrock]

If 'Swept Away' and 'Eaten Alive' had been Diana's first two albums for RCA she would have had a much better run of success after leaving Motown. Though not perfect, they were at least albums not just a bunch of songs thrown together like a cheap K-Tel compilation.

Better still if the Eaten Alive song was cut altogether and another Gibb song [[eg Islands in The Stream - originally written with Diana in mind I think) had replaced it. The album could have been renamed 'Experience' ;)

She made so many terrible career choices in the 80's. Imagine turning down Islands in the stream and then accepting a way inferior song like Eaten alive just 3 years or so later.

[Bluebrock]

As you yourself have pointed out sup, it's kind of interesting to read fans different takes on certain albums. For me Silk Electric is the antithesis of everything she should not have done whereas Eaten Alive is a fairly decent attempt at creating a good album. Not great by any means, but most certainly respectable.

Agree with you on both points Ollie. Eaten alive is a decent album aside from the ghastly title track

[Jimi LaLumia]

I adore Miss Ross, but yes some very foolish choices, Islands In The Stream being the second biggest, the biggest being turning down the script for The Bodyguard in the 70's which was slated for her and Ryan O Neil back in the day and then the script just gathered dust for a few decades till Whitney came along.

[PeaceNHarmony]

I adore Miss Ross, but yes some very foolish choices, Islands In The Stream being the second biggest, the biggest being turning down the script for The Bodyguard in the 70's which was slated for her and Ryan O Neil back in the day and then the script just gathered dust for a few decades till Whitney came along.Yes, Diana certainly had some turn-downs that we fans may regret. Gotta let bygones be bygones, though, and celebrate what is rather than what isn't or never was!

[sup_fan]

As you yourself have pointed out sup, it's kind of interesting to read fans different takes on certain albums. For me Silk Electric is the antithesis of everything she should not have done whereas Eaten Alive is a fairly decent attempt at creating a good album. Not great by any means, but most certainly respectable.

hehe - i know. the differences are so intriguing among the fans

Now let me explain my problems with Eaten:

1. the production of Diana's vocals - so muffled and buried
2. the grating, clashing sound of Diana's nasal tones and the Gibbs nasal background vocals

as for the songs, i do actually like the material. had those two issues been resolved it would have been an excellent album. but as is, i find it nearly unlistenable

Now i do acknowledge that Silk Electric is not a homerun. Some people have said that, other than Muscles, it's all rejected, leftover tracks from WDFFIL. That she simply dug those out and slapped them onto an album in order to have more product. I don't know if that's true or not as i don't have the production timelines and dates. IMO Diana was at the top of her game in the early 80s. huge hit records with motown, she successfully moved to RCA and got a fuckload of money. For years she'd simply done what she was told - she sang what was placed in front of her. Now she was in charge. I see SE as her saying "hey - i've never sung reggae or hard rock. let's try it! why not" let's make the album with each track being a totally different genre and test/play/experiment.

I do find that the vocal production is not great - muffled here too and too much echo at times. and Diana does seem to just coast through the material. but i appreciate her experimentation. she'd spent 20+ years doing what others told her to do so i can understand her saying "let me just play around and try things"

[reese]

hehe - i know. the differences are so intriguing among the fans

Now let me explain my problems with Eaten:

1. the production of Diana's vocals - so muffled and buried
2. the grating, clashing sound of Diana's nasal tones and the Gibbs nasal background vocals

as for the songs, i do actually like the material. had those two issues been resolved it would have been an excellent album. but as is, i find it nearly unlistenable

Now i do acknowledge that Silk Electric is not a homerun. Some people have said that, other than Muscles, it's all rejected, leftover tracks from WDFFIL. That she simply dug those out and slapped them onto an album in order to have more product. I don't know if that's true or not as i don't have the production timelines and dates. IMO Diana was at the top of her game in the early 80s. huge hit records with motown, she successfully moved to RCA and got a fuckload of money. For years she'd simply done what she was told - she sang what was placed in front of her. Now she was in charge. I see SE as her saying "hey - i've never sung reggae or hard rock. let's try it! why not" let's make the album with each track being a totally different genre and test/play/experiment.

I do find that the vocal production is not great - muffled here too and too much echo at times. and Diana does seem to just coast through the material. but i appreciate her experimentation. she'd spent 20+ years doing what others told her to do so i can understand her saying "let me just play around and try things"

I actually liked SILK ELECTRIC when I first bought it. It wasn't one of my faves, but songs like FOOL FOR YOUR LOVE, ANYWHERE YOU RUN TO, and I AM ME were pleasing to me. Hell, I even thought she was clever to get a writing and publishing credit with TURN ME OVER. :D It was only as the years went on that I became less enamored of it.

Re EATEN ALIVE, I was turned off by the title track from the moment I bought the single. It sounded like a third-rate SWEPT AWAY, just a bunch of noise. I even disliked the single's picture sleeve. I give her points for the video, though.

When I bought the album, I didn't think it was bad. I thought OH TEACHER, EXPERIENCE, and especially CHAIN REACTION were great. But the rest of it never grabbed me. I barely remember what most of the songs on Side 2 sound like. To this day, I only play it if I'm having a Diana-fest.

[Ollie9]

hehe - i know. the differences are so intriguing among the fans

Now let me explain my problems with Eaten:

1. the production of Diana's vocals - so muffled and buried
2. the grating, clashing sound of Diana's nasal tones and the Gibbs nasal background vocals

as for the songs, i do actually like the material. had those two issues been resolved it would have been an excellent album. but as is, i find it nearly unlistenable

Now i do acknowledge that Silk Electric is not a homerun. Some people have said that, other than Muscles, it's all rejected, leftover tracks from WDFFIL. That she simply dug those out and slapped them onto an album in order to have more product. I don't know if that's true or not as i don't have the production timelines and dates. IMO Diana was at the top of her game in the early 80s. huge hit records with motown, she successfully moved to RCA and got a fuckload of money. For years she'd simply done what she was told - she sang what was placed in front of her. Now she was in charge. I see SE as her saying "hey - i've never sung reggae or hard rock. let's try it! why not" let's make the album with each track being a totally different genre and test/play/experiment.

I do find that the vocal production is not great - muffled here too and too much echo at times. and Diana does seem to just coast through the material. but i appreciate her experimentation. she'd spent 20+ years doing what others told her to do so i can understand her saying "let me just play around and try things"

If Silk Electric is the product of Diana's experimental yearnings , i can only lament the fact that she did not spend a further seven years being told what to do.

[Guy]

Re EATEN ALIVE, I was turned off by the title track from the moment I bought the single. It sounded like a third-rate SWEPT AWAY, just a bunch of noise. I even disliked the single's picture sleeve. I give her points for the video, though.

The video with Ross as a savage jungle cannibal/tigress? I was just a teenager but I knew it was very, very wrong for her to be depicted in that manner. I was embarrassed for her.

I didn't buy the EA album but I did get the 12" single way back when. To my enduring shame, it is on my current iPod gym playlist. It is completely undanceable but hearing her and MJ trade squeals and nonsensical exhortations on the extended version is great for cardio.

[sup_fan]

She made so many terrible career choices in the 80's. Imagine turning down Islands in the stream and then accepting a way inferior song like Eaten alive just 3 years or so later.

i believe she also turned down It's Raining Men ;) hehe

[sup_fan]

Yes, Diana certainly had some turn-downs that we fans may regret. Gotta let bygones be bygones, though, and celebrate what is rather than what isn't or never was!

oh but speculating what MIGHT HAVE BEEN is so much fun!!!

[sup_fan]

If Silk Electric is the product of Diana's experimental yearnings , i can only lament the fact that she did not spend a further seven years being told what to do.

lololol i'm not saying that the output of her experimental yearnings was high quality. but i do at least give her some token acknowledgement for wanting to and being willing to experiment

[Bluebrock]

i believe she also turned down It's Raining Men ;) hehe

That was meant to be a duet with Streisand. There were rumours that Donna Summer was also invited to contribute, but Diana told me that was not the case.

[Levi Stubbs Tears]

Was it true that 'Enough is Enough' was originally supposed to be a Barb/Diana duet or was it always supposed to be Donna Summer? I should know this, but haven't had enough coffee yet lol

[sup_fan]

i never heard Raining was supposed to be a duet, as in Enough is Enough. I thought the writer was trying to get Diana, Cher, Bette and others to sing it and none would take it. The Weather Girls finally did and shared the leads

[vgalindo]

i never heard Raining was supposed to be a duet, as in Enough is Enough. I thought the writer was trying to get Diana, Cher, Bette and others to sing it and none would take it. The Weather Girls finally did and shared the leads
That’s the story that I had always heard.

[midnightman]

^ Considering both songs were written by Paul Jabara, I could see Paul wanting to make IRM a duet with two superstar divas lol

[Bluebrock]

Was it true that 'Enough is Enough' was originally supposed to be a Barb/Diana duet or was it always supposed to be Donna Summer? I should know this, but haven't had enough coffee yet lol
I am not 100% sure, but i am fairly sure it was always meant to be a Babs/Donna duet.

[Ollie9]

The video with Ross as a savage jungle cannibal/tigress? I was just a teenager but I knew it was very, very wrong for her to be depicted in that manner. I was embarrassed for her..

Why were you embarrassed for her Guy??. I think the video great fun and is one of her best.. Just a shame it was wasted on promoting such a daft song.

[Bluebrock]

.

Why were you embarrassed for her Guy??. I think the video great fun and is one of her best.. Just a shame it was wasted on promoting such a daft song.

The video was fun. The song sucked, but i do think that a good remix could have made all the difference. There is a decent song struggling to get out. Up to now it has proven to be an uphill struggle.

[sup_fan]

^i wouldn't say embarrassed but i do find many of her videos weird lol

how many "official" 80s videos did she do? that Visions of DR only had a couple on it.

here's what i've found:

My Old Piano
Why Do Fools
Muscles
Pieces of ice
Swept Away
Missing You
All of you
eaten alive

[sup_fan]

The video was fun. The song sucked, but i do think that a good remix could have made all the difference. There is a decent song struggling to get out. Up to now it has proven to be an uphill struggle.

I have a few theories on how to improve:

1. remix so diana's voice is prominent throughout entire track
2. cut the Bee Gee vocals and replace with female BG singers
3. perhaps recut as a duet with Diana and Michael

[khansperac]

^i wouldn't say embarrassed but i do find many of her videos weird lol

how many "official" 80s videos did she do? that Visions of DR only had a couple on it.

here's what i've found:

My Old Piano
Why Do Fools
Muscles
Pieces of ice
Swept Away
Missing You
All of you
eaten alive

There was a video for “Experience”, and also a video for “Forever Young” which was a live performance used for the Jerry Lewis telethon.

[reese]

^i wouldn't say embarrassed but i do find many of her videos weird lol

how many "official" 80s videos did she do? that Visions of DR only had a couple on it.

here's what i've found:

My Old Piano
Why Do Fools
Muscles
Pieces of ice
Swept Away
Missing You
All of you
eaten alive

There were also videos for WORK THAT BODY, CHAIN REACTION, DIRTY LOOKS, and MR. LEE.

[florence]

There were also videos for WORK THAT BODY, CHAIN REACTION, DIRTY LOOKS, and MR. LEE.

Who could forget the video for Chain Reaction - stunning and great fun switching from the past to the present?

It was the airing of the video on Top Of The Pops in the UK which sent the record from just being a hit into mega-status.

[reese]

There were also the back-to-Motown 80s videos of WORKIN' OVERTIME, THIS HOUSE, and PARADISE.

[JohnnyB]

There were also the back-to-Motown 80s videos of WORKIN' OVERTIME, THIS HOUSE, and PARADISE.

The only 80’s video missing to my knowledge is Mirror, Mirror...

[SatansBlues]

The only 80’s video missing to my knowledge is Mirror, Mirror...

There was a video of Mirror, Mirror. I remember the tv program America's Top 40 with Casey Kasum highlighted it when it was in the top 10. If I remember it correctly, he mentioned the fact that Marvin Gaye and Smokey Robinson also had hits in the top 10 at the same time!

[Bluebrock]

^i wouldn't say embarrassed but i do find many of her videos weird lol

how many "official" 80s videos did she do? that Visions of DR only had a couple on it.

here's what i've found:

My Old Piano
Why Do Fools
Muscles
Pieces of ice
Swept Away
Missing You
All of you
eaten alive

You have forgotten chain reaction, experience and erm.. workin' overtime.

[Levi Stubbs Tears]

It's a real shame the main singles from 'The Boss' and 'diana' didn't have videos - they would have boosted the songs even higher at least in markets outside the US.

I remember when Upside Down hit #1 in Australia, 'Countdown' [[our 'Top of the Pops') had to make their own video. It was a bit like some of the home-made things you see on YT clips these days - floating album covers and publicity shots.

[Ollie9]

It's a real shame the main singles from 'The Boss' and 'diana' didn't have videos - they would have boosted the songs even higher at least in markets outside the US.

I remember when Upside Down hit #1 in Australia, 'Countdown' [[our 'Top of the Pops') had to make their own video. It was a bit like some of the home-made things you see on YT clips these days - floating album covers and publicity shots.

It's a massive shame there was no video for "I'm Coming Out". It's such an iconic song that a fun promo might have helped push it to that top spot.

[Bluebrock]

It's a massive shame there was no video for "I'm Coming Out". It's such an iconic song that a fun promo might have helped push it to that top spot.

It is a pity she had not gone down the video route a few years earlier the way Queen and Abba did. It could have resulted in some much bigger hits.

[SatansBlues]

It is a pity she had not gone down the video route a few years earlier the way Queen and Abba did. It could have resulted in some much bigger hits.
I'm not sure that videos would have helped those songs, there would not have been an outlet to have them shown. In the early days of MTV they rarely played videos by black artists, they rarely even played Michael Jackson's videos. In the early days of music videos you would have to catch black artists videos on BET [[Black Entertainment Television). The president of CBS records threatened to pull all CBS music videos from MTV because they were refusing to play Michael Jackson's Billy Jean video even though it was the #1 song on the charts in 1983!

[Ollie9]

In the UK there was Top Of The Pops. A prime time music countdown of the charts where colour was never an issue.

[Bluebrock]

I'm not sure that videos would have helped those songs, there would not have been an outlet to have them shown. In the early days of MTV they rarely played videos by black artists, they rarely even played Michael Jackson's videos. In the early days of music videos you would have to catch black artists videos on BET [[Black Entertainment Television). The president of CBS records threatened to pull all CBS music videos from MTV because they were refusing to play Michael Jackson's Billy Jean video even though it was the #1 song on the charts in 1983!

We didn't have that problem here in the UK.
I recall reading how amazed Otis Redding was that he could be a guest on music shows and talk shows here in the UK, yet he felt there were barriers in the States that prevented him from feeling as relaxed as he did when in the UK. Colour should never have been an issue. It should have been all about talent.

[Bluebrock]

In the UK there was Top Of The Pops. A prime time music countdown of the charts where colour was never an issue.

Correct Ollie. Diana's videos would have gone down a storm on TOTP.

[SatansBlues]

We didn't have that problem here in the UK.
I recall reading how amazed Otis Redding was that he could be a guest on music shows and talk shows here in the UK, yet he felt there were barriers in the States that prevented him from feeling as relaxed as he did when in the UK. Colour should never have been an issue. It should have been all about talent.

Agreed, but color issues are in our soil here in the US and has been that way since the beginning. We currently have white nationalists in the top echelons of our government.

[Bluebrock]

Agreed, but color issues are in our soil here in the US and has been that way since the beginning. We currently have white nationalists in the top echelons of our government.

What a terrible state of affairs

[detmotownguy]

I wished I could tell you what one of his lawyers from back in the 60s said one day in NYC while I was waiting for meeting, but I can't LOL!

Anyway, It has been said that the Supremes would only receive something between $6-7,000 each for a million selling single back in the 60s. That's peanuts. They also had a royalty rate of 3 cents per single which was split between the 3 of them .
And i bet they got screwed even more after they became the DRATS. Didn't BG claim they would get pd "double" bc he was booking two acts lol!

[marv2]

And i bet they got screwed even more after they became the DRATS. Didn't BG claim they would get pd "double" bc he was booking two acts lol!

If you are a thinking person and not just a fanatic that believes any and everything these people told the public, you would know that didn't even make sense! He concocted that story as a reason just as he made up that story about why he wanted Diana Ross to be the lead singer of the Supremes. People didn't think much about it,but are now questioning all these things decades later.

[vgalindo]

If you are a thinking person and not just a fanatic that believes any and everything these people told the public, you would know that didn't even make sense! He concocted that story as a reason just as he made up that story about why he wanted Diana Ross to be the lead singer of the Supremes. People didn't think much about it,but are now questioning all these things decades later.
He was the boss. And if that’s what he wanted. He had every right. Miracles also became Smokey Robinson and the Miracles. And people can question all they want why he made Diana Ross the lead singer. All these decades later. History proves he made the right choice. Her voice leads 12 #1 records. How can any logical person say that was a mistake? Lol.

[Roberta75]

https://soulfuldetroit.com/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by marv2 https://soulfuldetroit.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png [[https://soulfuldetroit.com/showthread.php?p=548520#post548520)
I wished I could tell you what one of his lawyers from back in the 60s said one day in NYC while I was waiting for meeting, but I can't LOL!



LMAO. The most Mr Gordys lawyer EVER said to you was "why would I tell you anything about my client Mr Gordy. Now move outta my way." LOLOLOLOL Hehehehehehehehehehe

[PeaceNHarmony]

He was the boss. And if that’s what he wanted. He had every right. Miracles also became Smokey Robinson and the Miracles. And people can question all they want why he made Diana Ross the lead singer. All these decades later. History proves he made the right choice. Her voice leads 12 #1 records. How can any logical person say that was a mistake? Lol.The clue is in your use of the word 'logical'! #laughingstock thought the same thing until Diana's security guards took is cheap-assed camera. HE HE HE!!

[midnightman]

^i wouldn't say embarrassed but i do find many of her videos weird lol

how many "official" 80s videos did she do? that Visions of DR only had a couple on it.

here's what i've found:

My Old Piano
Why Do Fools
Muscles
Pieces of ice
Swept Away
Missing You
All of you
eaten alive

Mirror Mirror
Work That Body
Chain Reaction [[I remembered that one because that was actually the first video, besides Missing You, that first hipped me to Diana as a child)
Dirty Looks
Mr. Lee
Experience
Workin' Overtime
Paradise
This House

So that's a total of 17 videos in the '80s.

[midnightman]

He was the boss. And if that’s what he wanted. He had every right. Miracles also became Smokey Robinson and the Miracles. And people can question all they want why he made Diana Ross the lead singer. All these decades later. History proves he made the right choice. Her voice leads 12 #1 records. How can any logical person say that was a mistake? Lol.

Exactly. I don't know why folks keep going back and forth with this.

If there was one thing Berry Gordy was good at, it was strategy. He knew that having someone else besides the very soulful and raw Flo take over the lead position would work as long as he could find the material. Flo was vocally like Etta James [[who herself wasn't a crossover act despite her influence on white artists later on) while Mary Wilson's vocals were considered too jazzy for pop. Diana had the perfect voice for what was happening on the air but also had the voice that would bring in a different sound people weren't used to.

Obviously the general public agreed with BG's sentiments. 12 number one hits and then 6 solo number ones when she left? Berry decided Diana should be the leader, not Diana herself [[not that Diana minded lmao).

[stingbeelee]

Hi midnightman; thank you for your most recent post. It was very balanced, unlike some of the posters on this forum who swear that neither Flo nor Mary can sing. For what Berry wanted, Diana was the perfect candidate for the job. She had the most "pop" voice. What people get mad about, especially in Detroit is: ok, we know that Diana is the lead singer. But on some album cuts, give Flo and Mary some leads. It would not have hurt the group in the long run.

[midnightman]

Hi midnightman; thank you for your most recent post. It was very balanced, unlike some of the posters on this forum who swear that neither Flo nor Mary can sing. For what Berry wanted, Diana was the perfect candidate for the job. She had the most "pop" voice. What people get mad about, especially in Detroit is: ok, we know that Diana is the lead singer. But on some album cuts, give Flo and Mary some leads. It would not have hurt the group in the long run.

Exactly. Folks weren't hating on Diana singing the hits, but Mary & Florence definitely deserved more vocal leads. Berry treated the group as a vehicle for Diana Ross rather than a self contained vocal group and as we saw, all three had the talents to take things up to eleven. Imagine if all three were given equal vocal times during the hit years! Are you kidding?!

[Levi Stubbs Tears]

i never heard Raining was supposed to be a duet, as in Enough is Enough. I thought the writer was trying to get Diana, Cher, Bette and others to sing it and none would take it. The Weather Girls finally did and shared the leads

Interesting that Classic Pop Magazine just put out an article about 'hits that got away' - here's what they say about It's Raining Men:

First offered to Donna Summer, the singer who was by now a Born Again Christian, turned it down claiming its lyrics were “blasphemous”. She then sent songwriter Paul Jabara a Bible the following day to show him the error of his ways. Diana Ross, and Barbra Streisand all rejected the song, too, only for The Weather Girls to finally pick up the track for inclusion on their 1983 album,Success.

;)

[midnightman]

Jesus, the early 80s were a mess for Donna. :D

Why give Paul the Bible?! LOL

[SatansBlues]

Jesus, the early 80s were a mess for Donna. :D

Why give Paul the Bible?! LOL
Seems like a lot of artist have a religious moment after having musical success: Little Richard, Al Green, Denise Williams, Kanye West..

[Levi Stubbs Tears]

Jesus, the early 80s were a mess for Donna. :D

Why give Paul the Bible?! LOL

Yes - people rightfully say Diana made some poor decisions in the early 80s. Then Donna Summer - who was white-hot in the Casablanca days when Diana's star was waning a little - says 'hold my beer'.

[midnightman]

Seems like a lot of artist have a religious moment after having musical success: Little Richard, Al Green, Denise Williams, Kanye West..

For real though. It's like "pipe down" lmao

[midnightman]

Yes - people rightfully say Diana made some poor decisions in the early 80s. Then Donna Summer - who was white-hot in the Casablanca days when Diana's star was waning a little - says 'hold my beer'.

If Diana went "ice cold" in the 80s [[as was claimed on her E! documentary), Donna was friggin subzero except for the brief Stock Aitken Waterman revival, "This Time I Know It's For Real" in 89 lol