Diana Ross "Selfish One"

[RanRan79]

IMO by far the best song on the Red Hot RnB album. Very well done. Easily one of my favs of the RCA period. Anyone else like? Love?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d0gCwczElqg

[khansperac]

Love this track. One of my favorites from that album.

[sup_fan]

Summertime is the absolute top pic on RHR&B. one of her best performances of the 80s

I do agree Selfish One is a good tune on the lp. Tell Mama and Cross My Heart were both strong tracks too

Personally i like There Goes My Baby but others seem to think it's lacking

Tell Me Again unfortunately sounds like a Whitney Houston knock-off which is ironic cuz Whitney stole Masser and was doing her own powerballad knock offs of the Masser/Ross songs lol

[Guy]

"Selfish One" is one of her best RCA tracks. That was a bizarre LP but it had its moments.

[reese]

On the whole, I think RHRAB is one of Diana's best RCA albums and a nice way to wrap up that era.

SELFISH ONE is fine but my absolute fave is IT'S HARD FOR ME TO SAY, followed by CROSS MY HEART.

Interestingly, in a 1967 ROCK AND SOUL SONGS interview, Diana named Jackie Ross [[the original singer of SELFISH ONE) as one of her favorite artists.

[jobeterob]

Selfish One was good but Summertime was better.

[sup_fan]

i think the lp had its moments. but it is uneven. the idea of doing a mix of old and new seemed like a good move. but some of the new really seems out of place.

Dirty looks
Stranger in paradise
summertime
shine
tell me again
Selfish one
cross my heart
there goes my baby
it's hard for me to say
shockwaves

non US tracks & songs from TV special:
Mr Lee
Tell mama
99 1/2
Sweet soul music

i think you could have assembled a strong package with:

Sweet Soul Music
Summertime
Dirty Looks
Cross my heart
there goes my baby
Selfish one

Mr lee
99 1/2
Stranger in paradise
Tell Mama
It's hard for me to say
Shockwaves

[mowest]

“Selfish One” as a song is one the early 60s greats. In the battle of the Rosses, Diana does a very good rendition but Jackie’s version knocks it out of the park. Not only are her vocals superb but the backing track is as good as it gets. It almost hit the Billboard top ten and in some markets it went quite a bit higher.

https://youtu.be/vdOZ_HPIFJA

[Bluebrock]

On the whole, I think RHRAB is one of Diana's best RCA albums and a nice way to wrap up that era.

SELFISH ONE is fine but my absolute fave is IT'S HARD FOR ME TO SAY, followed by CROSS MY HEART.

Interestingly, in a 1967 ROCK AND SOUL SONGS interview, Diana named Jackie Ross [[the original singer of SELFISH ONE) as one of her favorite artists.

I am with you on this one. It's hard for me to say, cross my heart and summertime are my three picks from that uneven album. They stand up alongside her finest Motown recordings.
Selfish one is nice but basically just a carbon copy of Jackie Ross's original.
Incidentally Summertime was Diana's personal favorite from the album.

[Bluebrock]

“Selfish One” as a song is one the early 60s greats. In the battle of the Rosses, Diana does a very good rendition but Jackie’s version knocks it out of the park. Not only are her vocals superb but the backing track is as good as it gets. It almost hit the Billboard top ten and in some markets it went higher.

https://youtu.be/vdOZ_HPIFJA

I am with you on this one. The best version by a country mile.

[sup_fan]

I am with you on this one. It's hard for me to say, cross my heart and summertime are my three picks from that uneven album. They stand up alongside her finest Motown recordings.
Selfish one is nice but basically just a carbon copy of Jackie Ross's original.
Incidentally Summertime was Diana's personal favorite from the album.

were you involved with the UK side of RHR&B? were there additional tracks being considered that weren't used?

I know the initial idea was to focus on classic r&b. But i'm puzzled as to who thought that concept, at that particular point in her career, was a good idea? she did ok with the Swept Away collection, Missing You was very strong. But title track and the duet only made Top 20 and Telephone didn't do much. Then the Eaten Alive debacle [[at least in the US). So she needed to come up with a major pop record and nothing on RHR&B nor pretty much anything from that "classic" concept would have delivered that.

[daviddh]

I liked the album minus the sugary Tell Me Again.
I think had this album been releases in 83 it would have hit.
I liked Shine...Summertime...Hard to Say.. Cross my Heart...Selfish One

[lucky2012]

One of my three favorites from RHRB!
I listen to Missing You, It's Hard For Me To Say, Summertime, Selfish One and Chain Reaction far more often than any of the other RCA tracks.
I love the vocals, production and good feelings I always get from these recordings.

[PeaceNHarmony]

Love RHR&B and LOVE LOVE LOVE Diana's cover of 'Selfish One'. If there need be remakes this is the way to go. Just a perfect record.

[Boogiedown]

this is reaaalllly good.
Could it be my favorite RCA years recording by her?? On this day, YES! I've never heard it before , nor the original from 1964 by Jackie Ross , which is also spectacular . I like the handclaps on it and Jackie's vocal closing out of the record.
But Diana's rendition is spot on , respectful and true to the original. Has a bit of a Rose Royce feel to it. No fake instruments ,only the real stuff, and not a synth in earshot. :cool: . At first I thought her voice seemed too high , but I've changed my mind.
Great song I'm happy to learn of. :)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lc1Cxq0xxV8

[Bluebrock]

were you involved with the UK side of RHR&B? were there additional tracks being considered that weren't used?

I know the initial idea was to focus on classic r&b. But i'm puzzled as to who thought that concept, at that particular point in her career, was a good idea? she did ok with the Swept Away collection, Missing You was very strong. But title track and the duet only made Top 20 and Telephone didn't do much. Then the Eaten Alive debacle [[at least in the US). So she needed to come up with a major pop record and nothing on RHR&B nor pretty much anything from that "classic" concept would have delivered that.
No i wasn't involved with RHRAB. It was just before my time. I only became involved during the Workin' Overtime tour.

[florence]

Not a favourite Diana album.

I find Selfish One nondescript with a vibe similar to Gettin' Ready For Love.

Maybe I shouldn't admit it but I loved Shockwaves - it was released as a single in the UK and got a certain amount of airolay but it missed the chart by just one place.

It wasn't a great time for Diana in the UK with minimal promotion from her record company - had it been released a few years earlier it would have been some size of hit.

Dirty Looks was released to great reviews but was only a minor hit and the awful Mr Lee was also a minor hit when released as a single.

Besides Shockwaves the best track for me was It's Hard For Me To Say, surely one of her best ballads in a long while which makes one wonder how a full album produced by Luther Vandross would have worked out.

Who knows how the album might have done in the US had there been any sort of promotion behind it rather than besides the TV Spectacular - although I understand it did well?

[RanRan79]

Summertime is the absolute top pic on RHR&B. one of her best performances of the 80s

I do agree Selfish One is a good tune on the lp. Tell Mama and Cross My Heart were both strong tracks too

Personally i like There Goes My Baby but others seem to think it's lacking

Tell Me Again unfortunately sounds like a Whitney Houston knock-off which is ironic cuz Whitney stole Masser and was doing her own powerballad knock offs of the Masser/Ross songs lol

"Summertime" sucks for me. I'd rather listen to "Pieces Of Ice".

I agree about "Tell Mama" and "Cross My Heart", the latter of which I've only recently realized is actually very good and in line with a sound I think fit Diana during this period. When I first learned Diana had covered "Tell Mama" I cringed. Diana covering Etta James? And not Etta during her jazzy period, but Etta during her hard r&b period. No, no, no! But when I finally heard it I was really surprised that she didn't mess it up. I'm not crazy about the way she approached the chorus, but the verses were cool.

I love Diana's version of "There Goes My Baby", mostly because we finally get to her do the tune she was apparently so good at during the Primettes days. I dig the vocal but find the backing track a bit on the boring side. For the longest time "Selfish One", "Shockwaves" and "There Goes" were my only go to songs from this album's original release, but "Cross My Heart" is creeping up there.

"Tell Me Again" sucked.

[RanRan79]

On the whole, I think RHRAB is one of Diana's best RCA albums and a nice way to wrap up that era.

SELFISH ONE is fine but my absolute fave is IT'S HARD FOR ME TO SAY, followed by CROSS MY HEART.

Interestingly, in a 1967 ROCK AND SOUL SONGS interview, Diana named Jackie Ross [[the original singer of SELFISH ONE) as one of her favorite artists.

The title is a throw off. It wasn't red hot and the r&b could sometimes be difficult to discern. Had it been titled Shockwaves or Dirty Looks, the song choices might have been easier to swallow.

Try as I might, I can't get into "It's Hard For Me To Say". And that's hard to admit because I love Luther. But I find the song so very boring.

Thanks for the Jackie Ross info. I recall you mentioning that before. Sounds like an interesting interview.

[RanRan79]

i think the lp had its moments. but it is uneven. the idea of doing a mix of old and new seemed like a good move. but some of the new really seems out of place.

Dirty looks
Stranger in paradise
summertime
shine
tell me again
Selfish one
cross my heart
there goes my baby
it's hard for me to say
shockwaves

non US tracks & songs from TV special:
Mr Lee
Tell mama
99 1/2
Sweet soul music

i think you could have assembled a strong package with:

Sweet Soul Music
Summertime
Dirty Looks
Cross my heart
there goes my baby
Selfish one

Mr lee
99 1/2
Stranger in paradise
Tell Mama
It's hard for me to say
Shockwaves

She should've been kicked out of showbiz for that horrible version of "Mr. Lee". Yikes!! Excluding your inclusion of that horrible excuse for music, I think your album lineup is the better album, even though I don't like "Summertime".

[RanRan79]

I know the initial idea was to focus on classic r&b. But i'm puzzled as to who thought that concept, at that particular point in her career, was a good idea? she did ok with the Swept Away collection, Missing You was very strong. But title track and the duet only made Top 20 and Telephone didn't do much. Then the Eaten Alive debacle [[at least in the US). So she needed to come up with a major pop record and nothing on RHR&B nor pretty much anything from that "classic" concept would have delivered that.

I agree. Had this been a soundtrack album to the tv show, that would've been cool. But a separate album of r&b and pop tunes [[originals) would've seemed like the better option if looking for a major hit single.

[RanRan79]

Not a favourite Diana album.

I find Selfish One nondescript with a vibe similar to Gettin' Ready For Love.

Maybe I shouldn't admit it but I loved Shockwaves - it was released as a single in the UK and got a certain amount of airolay but it missed the chart by just one place.

It wasn't a great time for Diana in the UK with minimal promotion from her record company - had it been released a few years earlier it would have been some size of hit.

Dirty Looks was released to great reviews but was only a minor hit and the awful Mr Lee was also a minor hit when released as a single.

Besides Shockwaves the best track for me was It's Hard For Me To Say, surely one of her best ballads in a long while which makes one wonder how a full album produced by Luther Vandross would have worked out.

Who knows how the album might have done in the US had there been any sort of promotion behind it rather than besides the TV Spectacular - although I understand it did well?

"Shockwaves" is a really nice cut. Backtracking to Sup's point of attempting to cull a pop hit from the album, I think "Shockwaves" was probably the album's greatest option for that. Give it an eye catching video and maybe it would've caught on. Maybe.

[RanRan79]

"Sweet Soul Music" was a surprisingly well done cover. I wouldn't have guessed it. Diana does it very well. Interestingly, the version Martha Reeves did in the 60s was originally assigned to Diana. I wonder how that one would've turned out.

[reese]

The title is a throw off. It wasn't red hot and the r&b could sometimes be difficult to discern. Had it been titled Shockwaves or Dirty Looks, the song choices might have been easier to swallow.

Try as I might, I can't get into "It's Hard For Me To Say". And that's hard to admit because I love Luther. But I find the song so very boring.

Thanks for the Jackie Ross info. I recall you mentioning that before. Sounds like an interesting interview.

I fell in love with DIRTY LOOKS the first time I heard it on the radio. When I first saw the album in the stores, I was intrigued to see that Tom Dowd was the main producer. Knowing his Atlantic history and reading the title, I was expecting more R&B. But in the end, the title really didn't throw me all that much. Knowing that she had a tv special coming up with the same name, I just figured it was sort of cross-promotion. Plus I still ended up loving the album.

Re SELFISH ONE, for the longest time I thought it was sung by Brenda Holloway. They used to play it quite often on a weekend oldies show here, THE TIME TUNNEL. I think the dj might have misidentified it and I didn't bother to look it up.

Actually, the ROCK AND SOUL SONGS interview was more like a bunch of facts moreso than a real interview. I don't remember any quotes. I think the cover read "THE TRUTH OF THE SUPREMES AND THE BLUEBELLES" and had small photos of each group. Inside, there was one page on each group with photos of DMC at Expo '67 and the Bluebelles as a trio. I believe the Bluebelles page ended with the info that Cindy was now singing with the Supremes.

[lakedistrictlad1]

"Selfish One' was my instant favourite when RHRAB was first released. It felt like a return to form for Diana after the years of awful music she had been releasing. Still love it!

[sup_fan]

probably the track i listen to most from this lp is There Goes My Baby. i like the arrangement, although i do agree the backgrounds are a bit too sugary. and it would have been nice if Diana attacked the vocal just a bit more. she does at the very end and it's great. perhaps bring that approach a little earlier than right at the fade

Interesting idea about having the lp titled Dirty Looks. I think that song would have done ok with better promotion. but it's not unique or exciting enough to be a smash hit. Shockwaves is sort of "Son of Chain Reaction." and i don't think it's a strong either. But a motown-esque throwback could have possibly done well. and being included on a better album set than Eaten Alive might have helped it.

But if she was going to do an album entitled Dirty Looks, very few of the tracks here would have fit in there.

[thommg]

I liked this album, didn't love it. Everything sounded too homogenized for me - not red hot, not r&b. Summertime is the standout for me. I heard that Mick Hucknall had written Shine for Diana and she took so long to record it that he did his own version with Simply Red. The Simply Red version has some energy in it that is lacking in the Diana version. RHRAB is a nice album but not inspired.

[Bluebrock]

I liked this album, didn't love it. Everything sounded too homogenized for me - not red hot, not r&b. Summertime is the standout for me. I heard that Mick Hucknall had written Shine for Diana and she took so long to record it that he did his own version with Simply Red. The Simply Red version has some energy in it that is lacking in the Diana version. RHRAB is a nice album but not inspired.

You are correct. Mick did write the song for Diana but became pissed off with her dilly dallying so he recorded it himself. It was only when she heard that version that she realised it was a good song and she finally recorded it.

[Ollie9]

Compared to her first two rca albums, RHRAB is a masterpiece.
I think "Tell Me Again" and "Shockwaves" are awful, "Dirty Looks" weak. The rest is all fairly pleasant if a tad vanilla. "Summertime" is the highlight for me. Blues and Soul magazine hated "Shockwaves", asking "why does she do this?"
At that period in time Diana really needed a strong r&b/pop album. It really was a case of wrong album for the time.
The pics on the inner lp sleeve were stunning.

[Boogiedown]

"Selfish One' was my instant favourite when RHRAB was first released. It felt like a return to form for Diana after the years of awful music she had been releasing. Still love it!

That's what I felt too upon first hearing it yesterday. SELFISH ONE is a return to something more substantial. I don't know this album at all, but now I'm a little more curious.

Here's the original which is now also on my radar:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xBUNynQ6PQ0

It's nice that Diana kept this favorite one of hers in her back pocket all those years to bring it out again so much later.

The video that was made for it which I posted up above...makes me wonder if she intended it as a single?

[benross]

In the early years, Diana Ross presented something fresh and exciting with each new record. [[Even the two dismal singles I'm Living In Shame and The Composer were unexpected, whether or not one was overly enamored of them, and so, at the time, I liked them to some extent.)

But I'm Gonna Make Me Love You was, in my opinion, a major mistake. It was a remake of someone else's minor hit, and it came off as a Bit Of Liverpool kind of output, although the production values were better. It did not belong to Diana, or Eddie and Diana, in the way that Reflections or Baby Love or any of the others had. She was simply giving voice to a song, but she was not revealing what seemed to be her private feelings or her personal story.

On the other hand, she succeeded with many standards, such as the Rodgers & Hart material, because clearly she was maturing, learning something beyond her experience, and it was fascinating to see how well she made the songs fit. She was committed to shaping those songs to work for her, and many of them came across as confessionals, showing us who she was and how she felt.

In fairness, she also put thought and energy into most of the best covers on Supremes A' Go-Go, Baby I Need Your Loving and This Old Heart Of Mine in particular. But on some of the rejects from that project, her voice was fine, if it sounded a bit tired at times, and there was too little apparent immediate connection between her and the songs' respective storylines.

Similarly, on her first solo album, Ain't No Mountain High Enough found her sounding engaged and challenged, while You're All I Need and Keep An Eye were bland, pointless exercises and came across as very flat filler material.

When she moved to RCA, again most fans, understandably, anticipated something new and unusual and forward thinking. Instead, she gave us a 30-year-old song that was vaguely familiar from "oldies" radio, yet not far enough removed, like the Rodgers & Hart material, to give us a new glimpse as she evolved and grew. Or, more to the point, she gave us a precursor of the karaoke sound that would become all too familiar over the next few decades. If you've had enough to drink, you, too, can sound like Levi Stubbs or Aretha Franklin or [whomever], at least to yourself. And that's what Diana sounded like; she gave us an okay imitation of someone else singing his song, but never, ever, did the song belong to her. Through the RCA years [[and after) she gave us way too many "oldies" and never, once, did any of them make me forget about the real versions; they were just unnecessary covers. She wasn't Fontella Bass; she wasn't Mick Hucknell; she wasn't Jackie Ross or the Bobbettes, and her readings of those songs came across as lazy and unsatisfying. She wasn't taking the time to make a song or a sound her own; she was just repeating someone else's vision.

I also hated almost all of the physical covers of her RCA years; the outfit she wore on the first album looked somewhat cheap and vulgar, her makeup was wrong and the photographer was one of the least talented to work with her; that cover had all the appeal of the worst imitator of a 101 Strings album cover from 1961 or so.

I continued to buy all of her albums and for the most part discovered at least two or three interesting cuts on each. [[Working Overtime was an exception.) But it was rare to feel that she was the same talented interpreter I once admired wholeheartedly. She still achieved artistic success when challenged, for instance in some of her work with The Tenors. But all too often, she sounded like she was sleepwalking through drab terrain from 1980 onward. She was in a forest, mostly hidden by the trees, and while she still glowed when the sunlight touched her, there were far too few spaces open to the sun, and mostly the shadows diminished what was there.

[reese]

The video that was made for it which I posted up above...makes me wonder if she intended it as a single?

It might have made a nice single but I don't think it was intended as such. This video is really just a clip from the cover record segment of the RED HOT RHYTHM AND BLUES tv special. Much of it consists of staged performances of songs from the album of the same name.

[Boogiedown]

It might have made a nice single but I don't think it was intended as such. This video is really just a clip from the cover record segment of the RED HOT RHYTHM AND BLUES tv special. Much of it consists of staged performances of songs from the album of the same name.

thanks Reese. You're very good at helping me to sort through these things . :cool:

[Boogiedown]

In the early years, Diana Ross presented something fresh and exciting with each new record. [[Even the two dismal singles I'm Living In Shame and The Composer were unexpected, whether or not one was overly enamored of them, and so, at the time, I liked them to some extent.)

But I'm Gonna Make Me Love You was, in my opinion, a major mistake. It was a remake of someone else's minor hit, and it came off as a Bit Of Liverpool kind of output, although the production values were better. It did not belong to Diana, or Eddie and Diana, in the way that Reflections or Baby Love or any of the others had. She was simply giving voice to a song, but she was not revealing what seemed to be her private feelings or her personal story.

On the other hand, she succeeded with many standards, such as the Rodgers & Hart material, because clearly she was maturing, learning something beyond her experience, and it was fascinating to see how well she made the songs fit. She was committed to shaping those songs to work for her, and many of them came across as confessionals, showing us who she was and how she felt.

In fairness, she also put thought and energy into most of the best covers on Supremes A' Go-Go, Baby I Need Your Loving and This Old Heart Of Mine in particular. But on some of the rejects from that project, her voice was fine, if it sounded a bit tired at times, and there was too little apparent immediate connection between her and the songs' respective storylines.

Similarly, on her first solo album, Ain't No Mountain High Enough found her sounding engaged and challenged, while You're All I Need and Keep An Eye were bland, pointless exercises and came across as very flat filler material.

When she moved to RCA, again most fans, understandably, anticipated something new and unusual and forward thinking. Instead, she gave us a 30-year-old song that was vaguely familiar from "oldies" radio, yet not far enough removed, like the Rodgers & Hart material, to give us a new glimpse as she evolved and grew. Or, more to the point, she gave us a precursor of the karaoke sound that would become all too familiar over the next few decades. If you've had enough to drink, you, too, can sound like Levi Stubbs or Aretha Franklin or [whomever], at least to yourself. And that's what Diana sounded like; she gave us an okay imitation of someone else singing his song, but never, ever, did the song belong to her. Through the RCA years [[and after) she gave us way too many "oldies" and never, once, did any of them make me forget about the real versions; they were just unnecessary covers. She wasn't Fontella Bass; she wasn't Mick Hucknell; she wasn't Jackie Ross or the Bobbettes, and her readings of those songs came across as lazy and unsatisfying. She wasn't taking the time to make a song or a sound her own; she was just repeating someone else's vision.

I also hated almost all of the physical covers of her RCA years; the outfit she wore on the first album looked somewhat cheap and vulgar, her makeup was wrong and the photographer was one of the least talented to work with her; that cover had all the appeal of the worst imitator of a 101 Strings album cover from 1961 or so.

I continued to buy all of her albums and for the most part discovered at least two or three interesting cuts on each. [[Working Overtime was an exception.) But it was rare to feel that she was the same talented interpreter I once admired wholeheartedly. She still achieved artistic success when challenged, for instance in some of her work with The Tenors. But all too often, she sounded like she was sleepwalking through drab terrain from 1980 onward. She was in a forest, mostly hidden by the trees, and while she still glowed when the sunlight touched her, there were far too few spaces open to the sun, and mostly the shadows diminished what was there.

This is one of the best posts I've witnessed here on the DRATS forum. Lots of stuff to ponder benross. I'd like to focus on your impressions of her remakes, SELFISH ONE in particular , since its the topic of this thread.

I was most impressed by this tune when I first heard it, thought it's composition remarkable for an '80s release , so I have to admit , I was a little disappointed when I learned it was a remake, a duplication really, of an earlier hit. Wasn't quite as remarkable after all, although it certainly explained it.
This is not to take away from giving Diana credit for breathing new life into it, I think its a great number as does she. And is then the point of performing it to transform it into something of her own , to make it 'hers' , or is it just as legitimate a reason to just want to pay homage to it by performing it in a straightforward way, as closely to the way it was originally intended as possible. I mean when someone sings THE CHRISTMAS SONG in the style reminiscent to the way Nat sang and arranged it originally, is that lazy , or too easy, or is it simply a capturing of the song in its intended essence? That isn't valid? And then if someone strays too far..... at some point, why do the song at all??

When WHY DO FOOLS was released , I have to admit, I thought , "For this you left Motown?" And , like your examples, I never thought for a second the song had become 'hers'. A basic , throw away remake. Just as I WILL SURVIVE will never be hers, although for some reason she seems to think it is . So I get your point.
Good stuff to think about. Thanks benross

[Jaap]

Although Simply Red's album "Men and Women" [[containing their version of "Shine") was released two months before Ross's "Red Hot Rhythm & Blues," at the time it was emphasized in the pop press that Hucknall wrote the song especially for Ross and that he liked it so much that he "covered" it for the group's album. I do like Ross's version--it's not a typical Ross song but she does make it her own.

16433

[marv2]

That's what I felt too upon first hearing it yesterday. SELFISH ONE is a return to something more substantial. I don't know this album at all, but now I'm a little more curious.

Here's the original which is now also on my radar:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xBUNynQ6PQ0

It's nice that Diana kept this favorite one of hers in her back pocket all those years to bring it out again so much later.

The video that was made for it which I posted up above...makes me wonder if she intended it as a single?

Jackie Ross was a singer out of Chicago. She had vocal sound similar to Jean Terrell, who was also from Chicago. Jackie's record was a favorite on Soul radio in the mid sixties. I would never compare the original by Jackie Ross to the cover done by Diane Ross. It would be like Patti Page covering an Aretha Franklin classic hit.

[Bluebrock]

Jackie Ross was a singer out of Chicago. She had vocal sound similar to Jean Terrell, who was also from Chicago. Jackie's record was a favorite on Soul radio in the mid sixties. I would never compare the original by Jackie Ross to the cover done by Diane Ross. It would be like Patti Page covering an Aretha Franklin classic hit.
If you would never compare the original by Jackie to the cover by Diana then why go to the trouble of writing a post about it?

[RanRan79]

probably the track i listen to most from this lp is There Goes My Baby. i like the arrangement, although i do agree the backgrounds are a bit too sugary. and it would have been nice if Diana attacked the vocal just a bit more. she does at the very end and it's great. perhaps bring that approach a little earlier than right at the fade

Interesting idea about having the lp titled Dirty Looks. I think that song would have done ok with better promotion. but it's not unique or exciting enough to be a smash hit. Shockwaves is sort of "Son of Chain Reaction." and i don't think it's a strong either. But a motown-esque throwback could have possibly done well. and being included on a better album set than Eaten Alive might have helped it.

But if she was going to do an album entitled Dirty Looks, very few of the tracks here would have fit in there.

For a long time "There Goes" was the song I listened to most also. I also think she should have given the song more punch vocally throughout the song rather than waiting until the end to move up the intensity. I also still believe that she should have covered this song instead of "Why Do Fools" if she was going to go with a throwback to her favs as her first RCA single.

To your Motown throwback point, I think she actually may have had a winner on her hands if she had styled the whole album in a Motown-esque sound, which had proved a hit several times with 80s audiences. Different title for the album of course.

[RanRan79]

"why does she do this?"


Perfect title for a chapter dedicated to her RCA years in a book about Diana's career.:cool:

[RanRan79]

But I'm Gonna Make Me Love You was, in my opinion, a major mistake. It was a remake of someone else's minor hit, and it came off as a Bit Of Liverpool kind of output, although the production values were better. It did not belong to Diana, or Eddie and Diana, in the way that Reflections or Baby Love or any of the others had. She was simply giving voice to a song, but she was not revealing what seemed to be her private feelings or her personal story.



While I largely agree with nearly every other opinion in your post, I definitely disagree regarding "I'm Gonna Make You Love Me". Done a number of times before the Sups/Tempts got ahold of it, to my ears it still comes across as a different song. The only versions I ever play is Dee Dee and S/T and to my ears they come off as two completely different songs. Dee Dee sings hers so passionately, and there's a sadness to her voice that conveys she's serious about this shit. She might even be a bit stalkerish with the way she's got this dude in her cross hairs. On the other hand, Diana and Eddie make the record sound so romantic. They sound like lovers declaring their love and their intentions on making the other happy right to each other's faces. Of course it wouldn't be revealed for many, many years, but learning of Diana and Eddie's actual romance- probably occurring during this time- makes the chemistry that much more real. Two different interpretations, two different results. IMO both are A grade recordings, with Dee Dee probably getting a little more airtime on my personal playlist than the Supremes/Tempts version because I'm usually more in the mood these days for her more desperate version than the googoo eyed version of the two groups.:p

[Guy]

Not a favourite Diana album.

I find Selfish One nondescript with a vibe similar to Gettin' Ready For Love.

Maybe I shouldn't admit it but I loved Shockwaves - it was released as a single in the UK and got a certain amount of airolay but it missed the chart by just one place.

Indeed, Florence. Some things are better left unsaid. Your love of "Shockwaves" has scandalized us all. lol.

[Bluebrock]

Indeed, Florence. Some things are better left unsaid. Your love of "Shockwaves" has scandalized us all. lol.

Ha ha! I think i need therapy after reading of Florence's shock admission about liking Shockwaves. It has sent erm... shockwaves throughout this forum. I can understand why Diana recorded it, but i am not sure i can ever forgive her for it!

[Ollie9]

One thing that stands out about RHRAB is that Diana is in glorious voice throughout.
I think had she promoted "Shine" as the first single and shot a great video to go with it the album MIGHT have done a biddy bit better.
In reply to benross post, i agree with many of your opinions, but consider Diana's solo version of "Your All I Need to be superb. One she really puts her own personal stamp on.

[sup_fan]

^i agree Ollie. I think this is some of the best overall singing while at RCA. the ghastly echo treatment from Silk is gone, the hideous muffled productions of Eaten are gone, she's more engaged that one some of the Swept tracks. It's def not a masterpiece but it's held up better than much of her other output from 80s

[daviddh]

I do think Red Hot and Eaten Alive are her two best RCA albums. Both needed a bit tweeking

[PeaceNHarmony]

One thing that stands out about RHRAB is that Diana is in glorious voice throughout.
I think had she promoted "Shine" as the first single and shot a great video to go with it the album MIGHT have done a biddy bit better.
In reply to benross post, i agree with many of your opinions, but consider Diana's solo version of "Your All I Need to be superb. One she really puts her own personal stamp on.Agreed; 'Shine' is a killer cut.

[Bluebrock]

I do think Red Hot and Eaten Alive are her two best RCA albums. Both needed a bit tweeking
She failed to deliver a killer album whilst at rca , but there were at least a couple of killer cuts on most of the albums, especially from Ross83 onwards. I just wish she had put as much effort into making consistent albums as she did into making money, but she was a very busy lady during this time and quite literally stretched herself too thinly during this time.

[vgalindo]

She failed to deliver a killer album whilst at rca , but there were at least a couple of killer cuts on most of the albums, especially from Ross83 onwards. I just wish she had put as much effort into making consistent albums as she did into making money, but she was a very busy lady during this time and quite literally stretched herself too thinly during this time.
With all due respect Blueblock. I loved her RCA period. To me “Eaten Alive” And “Swept Away” were killer albums. I could also include “Silk Electric”. I know there are a lot of fans who don’t appreciate these albums like I do. But believe me there are many fans that do. That’s what makes this so fun everyone has their own personal choices of what they like.

[sup_fan]

^ agreed and i'll go ahead and disagree with ya ;) lolol

I think EA is the worst album of her career. I'd rather listen to Workin Overtime or I Love You.

The problem IMO isn't crappy song choice [[like WO) or material in too high/wrong key [[again WO) or poor quality backing tracks [[like ILY). The problems are 1) her vocals are so mushy and blurry and 2) Diana's already nasal vocal tone clashing with the nasal falsetto sounds of the Gibbs on backing vocals. To me, that combo of Gibb and Ross is like nails on chalkboard. Berry's other duet partners had different enough vocal tones that the blend work. here it's ghastly.

The Swept Away album is one i do enjoy, for the most part. I know many fans hate Crazy but i like it. it's fun. Forever Young and Rescue Me are not very strong. like she did 1 take of the vocals and figure, good enough. Children would have been pretty much fine without that damn children's chorus. The 3 singles and Touch are great songs.

[Bluebrock]

With all due respect Blueblock. I loved her RCA period. To me “Eaten Alive” And “Swept Away” were killer albums. I could also include “Silk Electric”. I know there are a lot of fans who don’t appreciate these albums like I do. But believe me there are many fans that do. That’s what makes this so fun everyone has their own personal choices of what they like.
Exactly. Variety is the spice of life. It is good to hear differing views. Glad you can appreciate Silk Electric more than i am able to.
I do quite like the final four albums, but as for Why do Fools and Silk Electric i shall just say different strokes for different folks!

[daviddh]

I remember liking Silk originally as I was severely disappointed on WDFFIL. Both albums could be combined into one lp.
Ross was a better lp but I thought wrong singles .
Swept away was good minus We r the children.prefer Fight For it.
Eaten alive was good but....less Bee gees on a few tracks while others I really like.

[144man]

I agree with Marv and Bluebrock that Jackie Ross's original version of "Selfish One" is better than Diana Ross's revival.

[Bluebrock]

I agree with Marv and Bluebrock that Jackie Ross's original version of "Selfish One" is better than Diana Ross's revival.

Yes it is. Nothing at all wrong with Diana's version, but she adds nothing new to what is a great original version.

[lucky2012]

I prefer Diana Ross's version. It's dramatic and cinematic and playful and I love Ross's singing on this. The original is good but sounded like a follow-up for Mary Wells.

[144man]

I prefer Diana Ross's version. It's dramatic and cinematic and playful and I love Ross's singing on this. The original is good but sounded like a follow-up for Mary Wells.

A lot of singers were adopting that style then, so it probably sounds more similar to Mary Wells now than it did at the time.

[TomatoTom123]

this is reaaalllly good.
Could it be my favorite RCA years recording by her?? On this day, YES! I've never heard it before , nor the original from 1964 by Jackie Ross , which is also spectacular . I like the handclaps on it and Jackie's vocal closing out of the record.
But Diana's rendition is spot on , respectful and true to the original. Has a bit of a Rose Royce feel to it. No fake instruments ,only the real stuff, and not a synth in earshot. :cool: . At first I thought her voice seemed too high , but I've changed my mind.
Great song I'm happy to learn of. :)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lc1Cxq0xxV8

OMG THERES A BLOODY VIDEO, I BLOODY LOVE IT, I LOVE THIS SONG too!!!!!!!!! :D

[jobeterob]

Diana says you need to go for the hooks and she sure does on this song

[BigAl]

A lot of singers were adopting that style then, so it probably sounds more similar to Mary Wells now than it did at the time.

Anecdotally, this song was actually written with Mary Wells in mind. She was struggling at 20th Century Fox and needed a hit. Either she passed on the song or perhaps it never even got to her, but it’s definitely following the “My Guy” formula: using an intro and break from an old tin-pan alley song. In the case of “My Guy” it was a few bars of “Canadian Sunset;” with “Selfish One” it was a few bars of “Tenderly.”

Because DJs were reluctant to play Mary’s post-Motown tracks, had she actually recorded “Selfish One,” it would probably not have charted, so Jackie Ross was ultimately a better choice.

[midnightman]

Diana does a great cover of it. I think deep down, Diana, much like Patti LaBelle, loved doing those type of songs [[though Patti seemed to go more into an urban contemporary department around this time). Diana strikes me as someone who, if she had her way, the type of songs she did as a Supreme would remain. It's not surprising she would successfully tackle a hit '60s song as "Selfish One".

However, RHR&B was probably Diana at one of her worst, in RCA and Motown, overall. Most of the songs seem like she was just doing it to finish the ill-fated contract with RCA. The label never recouped the $20 million they signed Diana to. Artistically, Diana was in a rut, which started after Swept Away was released. I think RCA and Diana clashed on what they wanted her to do. Maybe RCA wanted her to do what Whitney and Janet were doing and she was resistant to do it [[much like Donna Summer was told that doing pop oriented and rock oriented stuff, not to mention her doing spiritual music, was not the answer at Geffen since they signed her on her past disco glory).

Diana took a while to get her musical groove back and the last three albums she recorded during her second tenure at Motown finally saw an artistically satisfying period for her though obviously she was never to reach commercial acclaim again.

[marv2]

Diana does a great cover of it. I think deep down, Diana, much like Patti LaBelle, loved doing those type of songs [[though Patti seemed to go more into an urban contemporary department around this time). Diana strikes me as someone who, if she had her way, the type of songs she did as a Supreme would remain. It's not surprising she would successfully tackle a hit '60s song as "Selfish One".

However, RHR&B was probably Diana at one of her worst, in RCA and Motown, overall. Most of the songs seem like she was just doing it to finish the ill-fated contract with RCA. The label never recouped the $20 million they signed Diana to. Artistically, Diana was in a rut, which started after Swept Away was released. I think RCA and Diana clashed on what they wanted her to do. Maybe RCA wanted her to do what Whitney and Janet were doing and she was resistant to do it [[much like Donna Summer was told that doing pop oriented and rock oriented stuff, not to mention her doing spiritual music, was not the answer at Geffen since they signed her on her past disco glory).

Diana took a while to get her musical groove back and the last three albums she recorded during her second tenure at Motown finally saw an artistically satisfying period for her though obviously she was never to reach commercial acclaim again.

It's funny. She was complaining that RCA wasn't doing enough for her. Motown was doing too much and RCA, not enough. Well what was it Diane? LOL! RCA assumed, just like Diana Ross that it was her voice and it alone that sold records. Neither ever considered all of that attention to the writing of the songs for her voice and ability, song selection, production,and heavy promotion Motown did to make her records hit. I have to believe Berry Gordy got more than a little satisfaction from Ross' post Motown predicament. LOL!!!!

[vgalindo]

It's funny. She was complaining that RCA wasn't doing enough for her. Motown was doing too much and RCA, not enough. Well what was it Diane? LOL! RCA assumed, just like Diana Ross that it was her voice and it alone that sold records. Neither ever considered all of that attention to the writing of the songs for her voice and ability, song selection, production,and heavy promotion Motown did to make her records hit. I have to believe Berry Gordy got more than a little satisfaction from Ross' post Motown predicament. LOL!!!!
What’s so funny. Her first album on RCA she hit platinum with 2 top ten hits! Her second album was gold with a top ten hit! Then her 4th RCA album was an international best seller with a #1 UK hit. Her 5th RCA album went gold with another top ten single. Not too shabby IMO. I know Gladys, Dionne, etc were not having this kind of success. And I know your idol Mary Wilson probably would kill to have this type of success. Lol.

[RanRan79]

It's funny. She was complaining that RCA wasn't doing enough for her. Motown was doing too much and RCA, not enough. Well what was it Diane? LOL! RCA assumed, just like Diana Ross that it was her voice and it alone that sold records. Neither ever considered all of that attention to the writing of the songs for her voice and ability, song selection, production,and heavy promotion Motown did to make her records hit. I have to believe Berry Gordy got more than a little satisfaction from Ross' post Motown predicament. LOL!!!!

I believe Gordy got satisfaction out of folks like Mary Wells, Flo Ballard, even Mary Wilson, failing to find success outside of Motown. I don't believe he was that petty when it came to Diana because she was more than an artist to him. Not only was she the mother of one of his children, but she was the key to most of his biggest triumphs. I'm sure he was like any of the rest of us: we get mad but we still want the best for the ones we love. He loved her, and she him. Neither of them would've gotten satisfaction out of the other failing.

[RanRan79]

What’s so funny. Her first album on RCA she hit platinum with 2 top ten hits! Her second album was gold with a top ten hit! Then her 4th RCA album was an international best seller with a #1 UK hit. Her 5th RCA album went gold with another top ten single. Not too shabby IMO. I know Gladys, Dionne, etc were not having this kind of success. And I know your idol Mary Wilson probably would kill to have this type of success. Lol.

Gladys had two gold albums during this period and while she wasn't putting up worthy numbers pop, she, along with the Pips, cut some big successful singles during that time too, songs that have held up a lot longer than most anything Ross cooked up during the same time period. And Dionne also had two gold albums as well as cutting the mega hit "Thats What Friends Are For". There isn't anything Diana did at RCA that even approaches the impact of that song. And that's the problem. These women were staying true to who they were as artists, whether the results were always accepted or not. Diana was not and it shows.

[vgalindo]

Gladys had two gold albums during this period and while she wasn't putting up worthy numbers pop, she, along with the Pips, cut some big successful singles during that time too, songs that have held up a lot longer than most anything Ross cooked up during the same time period. And Dionne also had two gold albums as well as cutting the mega hit "Thats What Friends Are For". There isn't anything Diana did at RCA that even approaches the impact of that song. And that's the problem. These women were staying true to who they were as artists, whether the results were always accepted or not. Diana was not and it shows.
Gladys did have a few successful singles but none crossed over to Billboards pop top ten and she surely didn’t have a platinum album or anything thing close to it. And I agree Dionne’s record was huge but let’s be fair here. Her record was for a charity for aids research at the time when Aids was all in the news. And it had Stevie, Elton, and Gladys singing with her. Kinda like “We are the World”. No way it wasn’t going to be huge.

[marv2]

I believe Gordy got satisfaction out of folks like Mary Wells, Flo Ballard, even Mary Wilson, failing to find success outside of Motown. I don't believe he was that petty when it came to Diana because she was more than an artist to him. Not only was she the mother of one of his children, but she was the key to most of his biggest triumphs. I'm sure he was like any of the rest of us: we get mad but we still want the best for the ones we love. He loved her, and she him. Neither of them would've gotten satisfaction out of the other failing.

That would be nice if you were right, but I know better!

[RanRan79]

Gladys did have a few successful singles but none crossed over to Billboards pop top ten and she surely didn’t have a platinum album or anything thing close to it. And I agree Dionne’s record was huge but let’s be fair here. Her record was for a charity for aids research at the time when Aids was all in the news. And it had Stevie, Elton, and Gladys singing with her. Kinda like “We are the World”. No way it wasn’t going to be huge.

Yeah, and there's no reason why Diana couldn't have been doing equally excellent work. She was so concerned with competing with the likes of Madonna and whatever new girl was on the block, while her peers were figuring out how to make money, remain relevant, and stay true to their art. That's my gripe, that Diana sat the last one aside choosing to focus on making money and remaining relevant. Her focus on those things prevented her from continuing her musical relevancy [[as a current artist not a legacy artist which she'll always be) and from making more money. Can you imagine the kind of money she could've raked in had she recorded a blockbuster album? She was still in her prime. There was more left in the tank.

[vgalindo]

Yeah, and there's no reason why Diana couldn't have been doing equally excellent work. She was so concerned with competing with the likes of Madonna and whatever new girl was on the block, while her peers were figuring out how to make money, remain relevant, and stay true to their art. That's my gripe, that Diana sat the last one aside choosing to focus on making money and remaining relevant. Her focus on those things prevented her from continuing her musical relevancy [[as a current artist not a legacy artist which she'll always be) and from making more money. Can you imagine the kind of money she could've raked in had she recorded a blockbuster album? She was still in her prime. There was more left in the tank.
I totally agree. Although at the time I enjoyed her RCA material, I also wanted her to do albums in the same style of Dionne, Patti but especially Gladys Knight. Gladys was making great R&B albums. Which is my favorite music style. She would have had such bigger hits if she went that route. IMO

[Bluebrock]

I totally agree. Although at the time I enjoyed her RCA material, I also wanted her to do albums in the same style of Dionne, Patti but especially Gladys Knight. Gladys was making great R&B albums. Which is my favorite music style. She would have had such bigger hits if she went that route. IMO

She was not interested in making an r&b album . Luther did everything in his power to get her to agree to let him produce her. He sent her demos, flowers and other gifts. He wined and dined her and they struck up a good relationship, but he was starstruck and always in awe of her. He followed her around like a little puppy. It was all very cute, but he was never granted his wish to produce a full album on her.

[144man]

Anecdotally, this song was actually written with Mary Wells in mind. She was struggling at 20th Century Fox and needed a hit. Either she passed on the song or perhaps it never even got to her, but it’s definitely following the “My Guy” formula: using an intro and break from an old tin-pan alley song. In the case of “My Guy” it was a few bars of “Canadian Sunset;” with “Selfish One” it was a few bars of “Tenderly.”

Because DJs were reluctant to play Mary’s post-Motown tracks, had she actually recorded “Selfish One,” it would probably not have charted, so Jackie Ross was ultimately a better choice.

Well remembered! I'd completely forgotten about the "Canadian Sunset"/ "Tenderly" parallel.

That does indeed give credence to the Mary Wells theory. It also gives me the chance to do a quick plug for Jackie Ross's excellent Ace CD, "Jerk & Twine - The Complete Chess Recordings", which also contains "Selfish One" clone, "New Lover".

[BigAl]

Well remembered! I'd completely forgotten about the "Canadian Sunset"/ "Tenderly" parallel.

That does indeed give credence to the Mary Wells theory. It also gives me the chance to do a quick plug for Jackie Ross's excellent Ace CD, "Jerk & Twine - The Complete Chess Recordings", which also contains "Selfish One" clone, "New Lover".

Mercy..."New Lover" and "Selfish One" are identical. Different lyrics and slightly different arrangement but the same song. I winder what that was all about.

Mary Wells used the same device of taking a few bars of a pop standard/show tune with her debut Atco single, "Dear Lover." In that one, the tune lifted was "Hello, Young Lovers." Talk about working a shtick to death!

[Bluebrock]

Well remembered! I'd completely forgotten about the "Canadian Sunset"/ "Tenderly" parallel.

That does indeed give credence to the Mary Wells theory. It also gives me the chance to do a quick plug for Jackie Ross's excellent Ace CD, "Jerk & Twine - The Complete Chess Recordings", which also contains "Selfish One" clone, "New Lover".
Jackie Ross Ace cd is indeed excellent and well worth investigating.

[144man]

Mercy..."New Lover" and "Selfish One" are identical. Different lyrics and slightly different arrangement but the same song. I winder what that was all about.

Mary Wells used the same device of taking a few bars of a pop standard/show tune with her debut Atco single, "Dear Lover." In that one, the tune lifted was "Hello, Young Lovers." Talk about working a shtick to death!

Additionally "Everything But Love" is very similar to "Jerk & Twine".

[REYnoldo Chavez]

Fitting song for her.

[REYnoldo Chavez]

It's funny. She was complaining that RCA wasn't doing enough for her. Motown was doing too much and RCA, not enough. Well what was it Diane? LOL! RCA assumed, just like Diana Ross that it was her voice and it alone that sold records. Neither ever considered all of that attention to the writing of the songs for her voice and ability, song selection, production,and heavy promotion Motown did to make her records hit. I have to believe Berry Gordy got more than a little satisfaction from Ross' post Motown predicament. LOL!!!!

That's so true. She seems like a very mean person. I don't like her.

[vgalindo]

That's so true. She seems like a very mean person. I don't like her.
You may not like her but there are millions that do!

[midnightman]

Mercy..."New Lover" and "Selfish One" are identical. Different lyrics and slightly different arrangement but the same song. I winder what that was all about.

Mary Wells used the same device of taking a few bars of a pop standard/show tune with her debut Atco single, "Dear Lover." In that one, the tune lifted was "Hello, Young Lovers." Talk about working a shtick to death!

I know. How many songs are gonna have the same type of melody and pitch!!!