One more chance

[captainjames]

Does anyone know who sings background with Diana on this song ? I rate it as one of the best songs she recorded as a a solo.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ehk_BOWrwQM

[Roberta75]

Does anyone know who sings background with Diana on this song ? I rate it as one of the best songs she recorded as a a solo.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ehk_BOWrwQM

No idea Captain but this is one of my favs and Diana is in fantastic voice.


fonndly,

Roberta

[reese]

Becky Lopez, Maxine Waters Willard, and Julia Waters Tillman.

[captainjames]

Thanks Reese
At first I was thinking the Jones Girls but the Waters sounds dead on.

[jobucats]

I always thought, in addition to the apparent background voices in harmony, that Diana was also singing [[in the background) the top note of the harmony [[mirroring the lead vocal) lines and also singing extra lines as the 'background' toward the end of the song. Again, to clarify, it is apparent that Diana is singing some extra lines toward the end of song; however, I am hearing her singing along with the background singers in response to her lead vocal.

[khansperac]

I’m surprised to learn who is singing background vocals. Most Diana/Masser collaborations are damn near perfect. But on some songs I can only rate 9 instead of 10 because of the bland, generic background vocals.

[Ollie9]

A nice ish if slightly bland mor ballad was exactly what Diana did not need at this point in her career. I think the general public and many a fan were left confused by this turn of events.
With the sparkling "Boss" set and then with the funky "Diana" she appeared to have musically really moved on. Diana was setting trends and appealing to a new and much younger generation. For me the TLA album was a huge step back.
I love "Stay With Me"..........but even so.

[Bluebrock]

A nice ish if slightly bland mor ballad was exactly what Diana did not need at this point in her career. I think the general public and many a fan were left confused by this turn of events.
With the sparkling "Boss" set and then with the funky "Diana" she appeared to have musically really moved on. Diana was setting trends and appealing to a new and much younger generation. For me the TLA album was a huge step back.
I love "Stay With Me"..........but even so.
It was made up of songs that had been recorded over the previous few years. Some were released. Others were not. It was only when Berry knew for sure that Diana was leaving Motown that this album was scheduled. Had she remained at Motown we would have got a totally new album. Don't blame Diana for this album. Blame Berry. At one point he said he would release a "new" album on Diana to compete with any new rca albums.
Once he had calmed down he realised that would not want to cause a permanent rift with Diana so he wisely decided against it. Family reasons being the prime factor.

[alanconnor_1]

Awful single! A wall of noise.

Cryin’ My Heart Out For You was very nice though and might have done better if released first.

[Ollie9]

It was made up of songs that had been recorded over the previous few years. Some were released. Others were not. It was only when Berry knew for sure that Diana was leaving Motown that this album was scheduled. Had she remained at Motown we would have got a totally new album. Don't blame Diana for this album. Blame Berry. At one point he said he would release a "new" album on Diana to compete with any new rca albums.
Once he had calmed down he realised that would not want to cause a permanent rift with Diana so he wisely decided against it. Family reasons being the prime factor.

I assumed the TLA album had always been in the pipeline. I wonder if motown would have allowed Diana to produce her next album had she not left the company. I really can't imagine they would have allowed such a poor quality album as WDFFIL to be released.
Probably due to Diana' huge popularity at time, i remember"One More Chance" receiving decent airplay on uk radio. Perhaps if she had performed the song live on tv it might have been a bigger hit.............There again.... perhaps not.

[Bluebrock]

I assumed the TLA album had always been in the pipeline. I wonder if motown would have allowed Diana to produce her next album had she not left the company. I really can't imagine they would have allowed such a poor quality album as WDFFIL to be released.
Probably due to Diana' huge popularity at time, i remember"One More Chance" receiving decent airplay on uk radio. Perhaps if she had performed the song live on tv it might have been a bigger hit.............There again.... perhaps not.
I don't think she would have been allowed to have released such a patchy album on Motown. Aside from Ross78 great care had been taken with Diana's albums since the mid 70's. She had become more involved with the choice of material which makes it all the more baffling that she considered WDFFIL and Silk Electric to be of an acceptable standard.
She did no promotion for TLA because she had already left the company. She was not happy with the finished album despite it being musically satisfying and wanted nothing to do with it.

[alanconnor_1]

I was going to stick up for WDFFIL. If you became a fan of her in the ‘80s this was a key album, and I still listen to it a lot. But I decided it simply isn’t worth the abuse and veiled ‘well you are entitled to your opinion but I suspect you’re outnumbered’. So I won’t!

[florence]

Awful single! A wall of noise.

Cryin’ My Heart Out For You was very nice though and might have done better if released first.

Couldn't agree more - for me Chance and Eaten Alive are Diana's two worst singles, an absolute mess.

Had Cryin' My Heart Out For You been released first and given some promotion it could have been a sizable UK hit.

Also with the right promotion Stay With Me could have been a successful single.

With Diana leaving Motown they really only went through the motions.

Although there were several previously released tracks on To Love Again I think on the whole it's a good listening album.

[Ollie9]

I was going to stick up for WDFFIL. If you became a fan of her in the ‘80s this was a key album, and I still listen to it a lot. But I decided it simply isn’t worth the abuse and veiled ‘well you are entitled to your opinion but I suspect you’re outnumbered’. So I won’t!

Very wise.

[RanRan79]

It's a nice song. As an album track it's a really good listen. As a Diana single at this point, I just don't think it would've done her career any favors. As Ollie pointed out, she had The Boss and then Diana'80. The former didn't actually take the world by storm sales wise but it was a critical success, and the followup kept the momentum of commercial sound that kept Diana on top. Interestingly, the followups to her first two major hits of the 80s were completely different from their predecessors. But "It's My Turn" and obviously "Endless Love" were able to capture Ross among her most captivating performances and thus worked with the public.

So clearly if the question was "Okay, so Ross has gotten funky with her last two albums, why not see if the public is interested in the other side of Diana Ross again?", the answer was yes. An album of these kinds of pop/soul/AC mashups like "Turn" and "Endless" may well have been another smash album for Ross. However, as a single, "One More Chance" was out of it's league. Neither it or "Stay With Me" [[which I prefer to "Chance") had any chance of matching the success of "Turn" or "Endless". I LOVE "Cryin' My Heart Out For You" and definitely think it's a better single choice than "Chance", but even that wasn't going to do much better.

[RanRan79]

I was going to stick up for WDFFIL. If you became a fan of her in the ‘80s this was a key album, and I still listen to it a lot. But I decided it simply isn’t worth the abuse and veiled ‘well you are entitled to your opinion but I suspect you’re outnumbered’. So I won’t!

Don't be such a wuss.:p If you have strong feelings for WDFFIL, by all means post it. I'll let you know right off the back that my opinion is the album sucked and most of the tunes were beneath the vocal talents of Diana Ross. But what say you? Your opinion counts as much as every single other opinion in this forum. While I do think "well you are entitled to your opinion but I suspect you're outnumbered" is a rather condescending rebuttal [[as if I give a damn about how many people disagree with me, right?), that shouldn't stop you from participating.

Frankly, I'm rather curious to see your attempt at defending such a sucky album.:p [[For the record I don't believe music like this ever needs "defending". We all like what we like and we don't have to all be of one accord on it.)

[Ollie9]

Don't be such a wuss.:p If you have strong feelings for WDFFIL, by all means post it. I'll let you know right off the back that my opinion is the album sucked and most of the tunes were beneath the vocal talents of Diana Ross. But what say you? Your opinion counts as much as every single other opinion in this forum. While I do think "well you are entitled to your opinion but I suspect you're outnumbered" is a rather condescending rebuttal [[as if I give a damn about how many people disagree with me, right?), that shouldn't stop you from participating.

Frankly, I'm rather curious to see your attempt at defending such a sucky album.:p [[For the record I don't believe music like this ever needs "defending". We all like what we like and we don't have to all be of one accord on it.)

It is with a heavy heart and sad regret that i must disagree with you RanRan. Anyone who thinks WDFFIL a good album should in no way whatsoever be posting such views on a public forum.........Call me old fashioned if you like.

[RanRan79]

It is with a heavy heart and sad regret that i must disagree with you RanRan. Anyone who thinks WDFFIL a good album should in no way whatsoever be posting such views on a public forum.........Call me old fashioned if you like.

Ollie get with the times. You have to let the ways of the past die out. When you know better, you do better. We're supposed to be progressing, not regressing. Sure I miss the days when we could beat lovers of WDFFIL into a bloody pulp in the street. And of course I've certainly taken advantage of this a time or two way back when. But after what happened during the Workin Overtime massacre of '03...what happened to those poor people...even I had to recognize that violence directed at people with horrible tastes in Diana Ross music just wasn't worth the price that one pays with their soul. Come to the light Ollie. Come to the light.

[sup_fan]

It is with a heavy heart and sad regret that i must disagree with you RanRan. Anyone who thinks WDFFIL a good album should in no way whatsoever be posting such views on a public forum.........Call me old fashioned if you like.

hahaha - ok i don't think WDFFIL is a terrible album. i do agree that for her label debut it should have been stronger.

As for TLA, she had recently released It's My Turn which is a gorgeous ballad. one of her best. My understanding is that she was working with Masser on additional tracks such as One More Chance, Crying My Heart and Stay with Me. but then she left the label and they didn't have enough other new Masser tracks to finish out the lp. It's My Turn was too big of a hit to NOT have it on some sort of lp. So i'm guessing they just filled in with other Masser tracks and sort of did this as a "tribute" to him. While it's a shame that we never got a full Masser lp, i will say that the songs on TLA are [[mostly) all excellent. to hear Mahogany and the others again never disappoints me

I said "mostly" as the new Masser tracks were a bit of a mess. Turn was stunning and I like Stay. But One More Chance is one of the most overwrought songs released on the Motown label. good lord! it's just too much. especially the grunts and growls by Diana towards the end. sure there are times when this effect or sound might add something but this is definitely not one and Diana had never really employed those much before. The song totally lacks the elegance of It's My Turn, it never has the simple delicacy of Mahogany, or the sophistication of Touch me in the morning.

[Ollie9]

Ollie get with the times. You have to let the ways of the past die out. When you know better, you do better. We're supposed to be progressing, not regressing. Sure I miss the days when we could beat lovers of WDFFIL into a bloody pulp in the street. And of course I've certainly taken advantage of this a time or two way back when. But after what happened during the Workin Overtime massacre of '03...what happened to those poor people...even I had to recognize that violence directed at people with horrible tastes in Diana Ross music just wasn't worth the price that one pays with their soul. Come to the light Ollie. Come to the light.

I'm simply overwhelmed, extremely confused and quite frankly amazed by your post RanaRan. Since when was enjoying the "Workin' Overtime" vibe synonyms with having terrible taste. I feel sure you may wish to reconsider sir.
p.s Was there really an 03 massacre lol.:eek:

[Ollie9]

hahaha - ok i don't think WDFFIL is a terrible album. i do agree that for her label debut it should have been stronger.

As for TLA, she had recently released It's My Turn which is a gorgeous ballad. one of her best. My understanding is that she was working with Masser on additional tracks such as One More Chance, Crying My Heart and Stay with Me. but then she left the label and they didn't have enough other new Masser tracks to finish out the lp. It's My Turn was too big of a hit to NOT have it on some sort of lp. So i'm guessing they just filled in with other Masser tracks and sort of did this as a "tribute" to him. While it's a shame that we never got a full Masser lp, i will say that the songs on TLA are [[mostly) all excellent. to hear Mahogany and the others again never disappoints me

I said "mostly" as the new Masser tracks were a bit of a mess. Turn was stunning and I like Stay. But One More Chance is one of the most overwrought songs released on the Motown label. good lord! it's just too much. especially the grunts and growls by Diana towards the end. sure there are times when this effect or sound might add something but this is definitely not one and Diana had never really employed those much before. The song totally lacks the elegance of It's My Turn, it never has the simple delicacy of Mahogany, or the sophistication of Touch me in the morning.

I seem to remember being distinctly annoyed when the release of "It's My Turn" interrupted the steady flow of hits from the "diana" album. I adore IMT, but imo i believe "Now That You're Gone" or "Have Fun" would have charted higher.

[sup_fan]

oh i agree that she probably could have had another hit from diana but at the same point she probably should have been moving on anyway to something newer and hotter. If she had stayed at motown, my understanding is she would have done more with Masser [[to finish out TLA) and chic was contracted to do a 2nd album.

now we saw that Richard Perry was supposed to do a 2nd one and never did. So after the internal problems with diana 80 it's certainly possible that chic would have cancelled out on the 2nd lp. although Baby it's Me wasn't a huge hit like diana 80 was. so maybe that would have helped sooth hurt feelings and egos.

And of course she then hit massive with Endless Love. And had she been on the label still, it's very possible that Dreaming Of You would have been released following EL. And perhaps that would have brought about a Lionel produced lp. hmmmmmmmm lol

[Bluebrock]

oh i agree that she probably could have had another hit from diana but at the same point she probably should have been moving on anyway to something newer and hotter. If she had stayed at motown, my understanding is she would have done more with Masser [[to finish out TLA) and chic was contracted to do a 2nd album.

now we saw that Richard Perry was supposed to do a 2nd one and never did. So after the internal problems with diana 80 it's certainly possible that chic would have cancelled out on the 2nd lp. although Baby it's Me wasn't a huge hit like diana 80 was. so maybe that would have helped sooth hurt feelings and egos.

And of course she then hit massive with Endless Love. And had she been on the label still, it's very possible that Dreaming Of You would have been released following EL. And perhaps that would have brought about a Lionel produced lp. hmmmmmmmm lol

Motown could not get the rights to release Dreaming of you as a single, but they certainly did try. I recall the Endless Love soundtrack being on another label. Mca maybe? Lionel was courted to produce her debut for rca, but Quincy Jones was first choice.

[reese]

Motown could not get the rights to release Dreaming of you as a single, but they certainly did try. I recall the Endless Love soundtrack being on another label. Mca maybe? Lionel was courted to produce her debut for rca, but Quincy Jones was first choice.

The ENDLESS LOVE soundtrack was on Mercury, I believe. I remember hearing DREAMING OF YOU on the radio and wishing it was a single so badly. At the time, I was a kid and on an allowance so I couldn't justify buying the soundtrack album for just one track.

[sup_fan]

Bluebrock - any insight into what Diana might have done had she STAYED at motown? wonder if Quincy would have been an option while she was on the label?

[Jaap]

I'll always love To Love Again, if only for sentimental reasons. It was my very first Ross album. I had asked for "the new Diana Ross" album for my B-day; expecting Why Do Fools, I got To Love Again instead [[and money enough to go and by the "real" new Diana Ross album). The Why Do Fools... album worked quite well back in 1981, at least for young teenage me, but like much of 1980s music, it has not aged well in my humble opinion. Ironically, back then I did not care much about "Sweet Surrender"--now I think it is the strongest track on the album. Ross with Quincy Jones would have been interesting; the best possible comparison is the album he did with Donna Summer in 1982, which is brilliant [[and has aged very well), but rumor has it that Summer did not like the album that much. As the To Love Again album is concerned, all the "new" songs pale in comparison to "It's My Turn," which is such a brilliant track and showcases Ross at her most vulnerable yet also most powerful/empowered at the same time. And such a fitting final hit single on Motown [[not counting "Endless Love").

[RanRan79]

I bet Quincy was a bigger possibility at RCA than Motown. I suspect that, given the success of "Endless Love" and the commercial potential of "Dreaming Of You", had Diana remained with Motown, Lionel might have been given the opportunity to take on the next album. I think Lionel would have had a great read on how best to couple Diana and his compositions. No doubt in my mind that a Lionel produced Diana project would have given her some immediate classics.

[RanRan79]

I'm simply overwhelmed, extremely confused and quite frankly amazed by your post RanaRan. Since when was enjoying the "Workin' Overtime" vibe synonyms with having terrible taste.

June 6, 1989, the day it was released.:p


I feel sure you may wish to reconsider sir.

No, I don't think so.



p.s Was there really an 03 massacre lol.:eek:

Really Ollie? You didn't know about that? Well I guess you can be forgiven. It was the most recent act of violence I could recall surrounding the work of Diana Ross. Of course you're probably more familiar with the Red Hot Rhythm and Blues riot of '91. There was more damage and people killed than the '03 massacre, it's just that the massacre was...well...a massacre. The WO defenders didn't stand a chance.:[[

[sup_fan]

I bet Quincy was a bigger possibility at RCA than Motown. I suspect that, given the success of "Endless Love" and the commercial potential of "Dreaming Of You", had Diana remained with Motown, Lionel might have been given the opportunity to take on the next album. I think Lionel would have had a great read on how best to couple Diana and his compositions. No doubt in my mind that a Lionel produced Diana project would have given her some immediate classics.

i don't disagree that Lionel would have most likely had a chance to work with Diana. but given his songs and style, is it really all that different from her work with Masser? I would have been interested in a full Masser album just to hear how he might have done some non-ballad things. So much of his work with DR is heart-wrenching ballads. Sure Last Time, No One's Gonna be and Together are a bit more uptempo.

After the amazing heights of The Boss lp and the urban hipness of diana 80, the lush Masser work fit the bill. and Endless Love continued this. But it was a new decade and the sounds that were about to emerge with the Brit Invasion, Madonna, rap and heavier r&b, would have meant she needed something new and fresh pretty quickly

[Jaap]

It definitely would have been interesting if Ross would have done a whole Lionel Richie album. Now personally, I'm not a big fan of Richie [[quite the contrary, I find most of his solo work quite saccharine, generic, and basically boring), but his first album is actually quite nice. Moreover, although not my personal favorite, "Missing You" is undoubtedly one of the highlights, if not the highlight, of Ross's RCA years. I can imagine Ross singing songs like "Hello" or "Say You, Say Me" and turn it into better versions than the Richie ones. So a Richie pairing could have been interesting... one with Quincy Jones or--obviously--Luther Vandross would have been even more interesting. Then yet, that all never happened.

[Bluebrock]

Bluebrock - any insight into what Diana might have done had she STAYED at motown? wonder if Quincy would have been an option while she was on the label?
Lionel was the choice of Berry to produce her had she stayed at Motown, but Diana favoured Quincy. She did her best to get Quincy on board for the rca debut , but he was busy producing Patti Austin which would have meant a 6 month delay . Neither Diana or rca were willing to wait that long so she produced it herself. Quincy was rather miffed and took the demos he had given to Diana to Donna Summer who used several of them on her self titled Quincy produced album which for me was far more listenable than WDFFIL.

[sup_fan]

although Diana has often misjudged elements of her career, in this case i think she was right. most of Lionel's stuff at motown [[although i'll admit i've never really listened much to his catalog) seems like Mini-Masser. Quincy seemed much more in tune to what an 80s version of r&b/pop would be.

and i'll just go ahead and say it lolol Patti Austin??!?!? really??!?! now i'll admit i'm biased but if i was working with Patti and then DIANA ROSS not only approached but sounds like practically begged me to work with her, i would have wrapped up the Patti stuff asap. and i would also think that working on simultaneous projects for artists should be that big of a challenge for a producer of his caliber.

[Ollie9]

Quincy's productions always sound a little to clean and clinical for my own personal taste. If not Nile and Bernard, i think Lionel Richie would have been the perfect producer for that all important rca debut. If not, just replacing her solo "Endless Love with "Love Lies" would have helped A LOTl.
Getting back to Masser, i actually like the fact that he really pushed Diana in the studio. Her voice sounds really powerful towards the end of "WMC". I would have liked to have heard a little of that drama in more of her rca recordings.

[sup_fan]

oh i agree that Masser was a wonderful producer for Diana. as important [[or at least almost) to her solo career IMO as A&S. A&S certainly had a range of production numbers and style. and of course just more actual songs with Diana than Michael did. And while most fans might say Mountain really is THE definitive DR song, Touch me in the morning and Mahogany are very, very close.

And you're so correct. Diana's vocals at RCA paled in comparison to what her motown producers delivered. From a track production, she was pretty good. many [[if not most) of the tracks on WDFFIL, SE, SA are strong sounding tracks. But she just didn't push herself vocally

[sansradio]

and i'll just go ahead and say it lolol Patti Austin??!?!? really??!?! now i'll admit i'm biased but if i was working with Patti and then DIANA ROSS not only approached but sounds like practically begged me to work with her, i would have wrapped up the Patti stuff asap. and i would also think that working on simultaneous projects for artists should be that big of a challenge for a producer of his caliber.

Uh-oh. You've done it now. Them's fightin' words, buddy. :p

In all seriousness, though, Patti is Q's goddaughter, after all--and a helluva talent to boot. She's so versatile and has such a supple tone and a range that's out of this world. Yeah, you're biased, all right.;)

[Bluebrock]

Uh-oh. You've done it now. Them's fightin' words, buddy. :p

In all seriousness, though, Patti is Q's goddaughter, after all--and a helluva talent to boot. She's so versatile and has such a supple tone and a range that's out of this world. Yeah, you're biased, all right.;)
There was no way that Quincy was going to do the dirty on Patti Austin. As you rightly say she is his Goddaughter, and they were incredibly close from her being a child.
You are also right when you say that Patti is an incredible talent. Her tone is similar to that of Streisand. Her vocal range is quite astounding and she is an amazing talent on stage. If anyone deserved to be a superstar it is this lady. There is no way Quincy would try to wrap up this project early in order to work with Diana or anyone else for that matter.

[sansradio]

There was no way that Quincy was going to do the dirty on Patti Austin. As you rightly say she is his Goddaughter, and they were incredibly close from her being a child.
You are also right when you say that Patti is an incredible talent. Her tone is similar to that of Streisand. Her vocal range is quite astounding and she is an amazing talent on stage. If anyone deserved to be a superstar it is this lady. There is no way Quincy would try to wrap up this project early in order to work with Diana or anyone else for that matter.

Thank you!!! It astounds me that Diana fans would be lukewarm about Patti Austin. They are stylistically very similar. And her body of work is so much deeper than just "Baby, Come to Me." She's one of the finest singers of her generation.

[Ollie9]

There was no way that Quincy was going to do the dirty on Patti Austin. As you rightly say she is his Goddaughter, and they were incredibly close from her being a child.
You are also right when you say that Patti is an incredible talent. Her tone is similar to that of Streisand. Her vocal range is quite astounding and she is an amazing talent on stage. If anyone deserved to be a superstar it is this lady. There is no way Quincy would try to wrap up this project early in order to work with Diana or anyone else for that matter.

So agree, though i have never thought of her voice as being similar to Streisands.
I myself enjoy Patti's non Quincy Jones albums a great deal more. "That Secret Place" being my favourite album of hers as it really showcases her vocal versatility. I played "Stars In Our Eyes" an awful lot when i broke up with my ex after many years. Such a beautiful, poignant song.

[Ollie9]

From a track production, she was pretty good. many [[if not most) of the tracks on WDFFIL, SE, are strong sounding tracks.

Ermm...................yea. :confused:

[jobucats]

Quincy's productions always sound a little to clean and clinical for my own personal taste. .

Ollie9, I love the adjectives "clean" and "clinical" which you use to describe Quincy Jones' productions. I am on the other side of the spectrum: it's Quincy's productions which captivate me with that sound. It started for me with his "The Dude" album. I was in tears as to how good it sounded when I first played it. I believe he had the ultimate studio engineer in Bruce Swedien who we all know spearheaded the recording of many of Michael Jackson's albums which have that clean and clinical sound. I recall one of the complaints many had about Quincy's Donna Summer album was that it was too Quincy Jones' sounding.
Regarding Diana's RCA output, I found that most of the productions lacked the needed depth. I realize she may have been striving toward another sound, however, this was quite abrupt when it came to the Why Do Fools Fall in Love album. She chose to use an airy light voice which, in my opinion, was placed in a key [[pitch) where her voice lacked depth. The mixes were too thin sounding for my particular tastes.

[sup_fan]

Uh-oh. You've done it now. Them's fightin' words, buddy. :p

In all seriousness, though, Patti is Q's goddaughter, after all--and a helluva talent to boot. She's so versatile and has such a supple tone and a range that's out of this world. Yeah, you're biased, all right.;)

hehehehe - i knew i'd raise a ruckass lolol

just teasing about Patti. didn't realize the family connection. and of course i'm a selfish fan and wanting as many hits for Diana as possible. As much as i love Thelma's version of Don't Leave Me This Way, i do wish Diana had had it.

and of course the actual RCA output was hit or miss. so the idea of her launching her new career with a massive album that was a critical AND artistic AND commercial success is my dream. WDFFIL was certainly a commercial success. and a decent critical one. the lp wasn't totally panned by reviews. but artistically it could have most certainly been more

[Bluebrock]

So agree, though i have never thought of her voice as being similar to Streisands.
I myself enjoy Patti's non Quincy Jones albums a great deal more. "That Secret Place" being my favourite album of hers as it really showcases her vocal versatility. I played "Stars In Our Eyes" an awful lot when i broke up with my ex after many years. Such a beautiful, poignant song.
If you listen to her CTI albums from the 70's there is a definite similarity to Streisand's tone. I remember discussing this very thing with John E.Abbey who was the founder of Blues and Soul magazine. We were listening to her albums Havana Candy and End of the Rainbow and we both thought the same thing. Take a listen to those albums.

[Bluebrock]

Ollie9, I love the adjectives "clean" and "clinical" which you use to describe Quincy Jones' productions. I am on the other side of the spectrum: it's Quincy's productions which captivate me with that sound. It started for me with his "The Dude" album. I was in tears as to how good it sounded when I first played it. I believe he had the ultimate studio engineer in Bruce Swedien who we all know spearheaded the recording of many of Michael Jackson's albums which have that clean and clinical sound. I recall one of the complaints many had about Quincy's Donna Summer album was that it was too Quincy Jones' sounding.
Regarding Diana's RCA output, I found that most of the productions lacked the needed depth. I realize she may have been striving toward another sound, however, this was quite abrupt when it came to the Why Do Fools Fall in Love album. She chose to use an airy light voice which, in my opinion, was placed in a key [[pitch) where her voice lacked depth. The mixes were too thin sounding for my particular tastes.
Spot on. Quincy did a great job producing Diana on The Wiz soundtrack album. He and Diana could have been a combination made in heaven.

[Bluebrock]

Ermm...................yea. :confused:

Ha ha. I have to side with you on this one Ollie!

[Bluebrock]

So agree, though i have never thought of her voice as being similar to Streisands.
I myself enjoy Patti's non Quincy Jones albums a great deal more. "That Secret Place" being my favourite album of hers as it really showcases her vocal versatility. I played "Stars In Our Eyes" an awful lot when i broke up with my ex after many years. Such a beautiful, poignant song.

I have all of Patti's albums in my collection, and i would be hard pressed to pick a favorite. That Secret Place is indeed excellent. She never fails to deliver a top notch vocal performance.
She is one of the craziest people i have ever met. She could have been a comedienne. I am so happy that she has become a wealthy lady due more to her prowess and demand as a session singer rather than her own singing career which has had its peaks and troughs. Anyone who is anyone wanted Patti singing backing vocals on their albums including Diana Ross.

[Ollie9]

If you listen to her CTI albums from the 70's there is a definite similarity to Streisand's tone. I remember discussing this very thing with John E.Abbey who was the founder of Blues and Soul magazine. We were listening to her albums Havana Candy and End of the Rainbow and we both thought the same thing. Take a listen to those albums.

I took a listen Bluebrock and yes, i can hear some similarity, particularly on Havana Candy. The quality of those albums made me ponder what might have been had Quincy, Lionel or just about anybody other then Diana produced those first two rca albums. H/C as an album makes WDFFIL sound sadly rather vacuous. At least things did improve........eventually.

[Bluebrock]

I took a listen Bluebrock and yes, i can hear some similarity, particularly on Havana Candy. The quality of those albums made me ponder what might have been had Quincy, Lionel or just about anybody other then Diana produced those first two rca albums. H/C as an album makes WDFFIL sound sadly rather vacuous. At least things did improve........eventually.
Glad you can hear the similarities Ollie. I agree that anyone but Diana would have been a better choice to produce Fools and Silk. Her half hearted vocal performances could have been enhanced if she had hired an experienced producer to push her more in the studio.
On the other hand producing that pair of lightweight albums saved her a lot of money. The likes of Quincy, Lionel and Masser didn't come cheaply!!

[captainjames]

Interesting that everything I have heard and read was Diana wanted more creativity with the production and writing of her music and releases and Berry Gordy was not up for that. I am curious how Quincy Jones or Lionel Richie or Michael Masser would have done that. Just food for thought.

[Ollie9]

Interesting that everything I have heard and read was Diana wanted more creativity with the production and writing of her music and releases and Berry Gordy was not up for that. I am curious how Quincy Jones or Lionel Richie or Michael Masser would have done that. Just food for thought.

With any luck they would have allowed minimal interference from Diana leading to better quality albums. I don't want to be a Debbie Downer on this subject, but it very much appears at that point in time Diana was more interested in making money then getting creative and involved with her music. Garry Katz and Barry Gibb both testify to this and the results kind of speak for themselves.
I'm sure at the time she had her reasons and if nothing else Diana proved herself to be an astute and successful businesswoman. One of the reasons she has ended up a very wealthy lady today.

[florence]

With any luck they would have allowed minimal interference from Diana leading to better quality albums. I don't want to be a Debbie Downer on this subject, but it very much appears at that point in time Diana was more interested in making money then getting creative and involved with her music. Garry Katz and Barry Gibb both testify to this and the results kind of speak for themselves.
I'm sure at the time she had her reasons and if nothing else Diana proved herself to be an astute and successful businesswoman. One of the reasons she has ended up a very wealthy lady today.

Whether it was true or not it was always rumoured that Motown underpaid royalties to its artists.

J Randy Taraborrelli claimed it was a royalty figure for sales only in the 400ks for It's My Turn - a top 10 hit - which caused the final rift between Diana and Berry Gordy and decided Diana to go to RCA.

Diana believed Berry was lying to her.

It would be understandable at this stage if she decided to try and put some money in the bank.

[Bluebrock]

With any luck they would have allowed minimal interference from Diana leading to better quality albums. I don't want to be a Debbie Downer on this subject, but it very much appears at that point in time Diana was more interested in making money then getting creative and involved with her music. Garry Katz and Barry Gibb both testify to this and the results kind of speak for themselves.
I'm sure at the time she had her reasons and if nothing else Diana proved herself to be an astute and successful businesswoman. One of the reasons she has ended up a very wealthy lady today.
The rca years made Diana a very wealthy lady. Shrewd investments helped her fortune to grow even bigger. Sadly this was all at the expense of quality music. I just wish she had taken more care with the choice of material on those first two albums. We [[and she) really could have had it both ways.

[khansperac]

WDFFIL is a solid album. “Think I’m in love” alone is worth the price of admission. Then you also have “Mirror Mirror”, “Fools”, EL, “Sweet Surrender”. All good IMO.

[sup_fan]

Blue - i know we've chatted a lot about WDFFIL and love all of the different opinions on here. out of curiosity, what do you dislike about the album? what are some of the errors you see with it?

as for me, i think the solo Endless Love is ghastly. horrid

but i think Sweet surrender, mirror, mirror, think i'm in love are very strong songs. I also really like sweet nothings. sexy and playful. and just a touch of camp and silliness

title track and it's never too late are solid. not the best things she ever recorded but strong. and i sort of get the idea that she "wanted to return to her roots w Why and get back in touch..."

two can make it is ok. light, fun. decent album filler

Work that body is total camp and fun IMO. but with Sweet Nothings, you already had something sort of along that lines. two tracks on an album might be a bit much.

I thought the harder "rock" sound of Mirror was a hot one for her. and maybe if you cut Endless and Work that body and do some more of that, it would have been stronger.

[JohnnyB]

Blue - i know we've chatted a lot about WDFFIL and love all of the different opinions on here. out of curiosity, what do you dislike about the album? what are some of the errors you see with it?

as for me, i think the solo Endless Love is ghastly. horrid

but i think Sweet surrender, mirror, mirror, think i'm in love are very strong songs. I also really like sweet nothings. sexy and playful. and just a touch of camp and silliness

title track and it's never too late are solid. not the best things she ever recorded but strong. and i sort of get the idea that she "wanted to return to her roots w Why and get back in touch..."

two can make it is ok. light, fun. decent album filler

Work that body is total camp and fun IMO. but with Sweet Nothings, you already had something sort of along that lines. two tracks on an album might be a bit much.

I thought the harder "rock" sound of Mirror was a hot one for her. and maybe if you cut Endless and Work that body and do some more of that, it would have been stronger.

I love this thoughtful analysis of the album and I agree with your critiques 100%. I felt the same about WDFFIL at the time of its release; it wasn’t incredible, but it wasn’t awful. It had to grow on me. I’ve actually been revisiting the LP for the past couple days, trying to hear what others seem to despise. In my opinion, it is a decent MOR album. Work That Body is the only song that annoys me, but it’s campy fun as you stated. Fools doesn’t compare with The Boss, diana or Baby It’s Me, but it’s okay...

[sup_fan]

and i do certainly appreciate the fact that this was the DIANA ROSS DEBUT ON NEW LABEL and therefore the expectations were probably higher. that she should have released a groundbreaking lp, not just a decent one.

at the time of the release, i wasn't a major fan and wasn't following the specifics of her career. i of course remember diana 80 and some of the boss. and remember To Love Again, but mostly because i recognized Theme From Mahogany.

And i do remember the title track to Why. but in hindsight a more powerful set

Mirror was a much tougher sound and something new for her. which i liked. Plus she didn't get too carried away with the echo. so you can still understand her lyrics. it seems to flow well with Sweet Surrender IMO. I think a more 80s rock/pop sound would have served her well. had she had another rock song or two, plus a good 80s pop/rock ballad, you would have maybe dumped some of the 80s disco lite tracks like think i'm in love and two can make it.

[Bluebrock]

Blue - i know we've chatted a lot about WDFFIL and love all of the different opinions on here. out of curiosity, what do you dislike about the album? what are some of the errors you see with it?

as for me, i think the solo Endless Love is ghastly. horrid

but i think Sweet surrender, mirror, mirror, think i'm in love are very strong songs. I also really like sweet nothings. sexy and playful. and just a touch of camp and silliness

title track and it's never too late are solid. not the best things she ever recorded but strong. and i sort of get the idea that she "wanted to return to her roots w Why and get back in touch..."

two can make it is ok. light, fun. decent album filler

Work that body is total camp and fun IMO. but with Sweet Nothings, you already had something sort of along that lines. two tracks on an album might be a bit much.

I thought the harder "rock" sound of Mirror was a hot one for her. and maybe if you cut Endless and Work that body and do some more of that, it would have been stronger.
My main problem with the album is the bland and lacklustre production. She was quite simply too inexperienced to do this project justice. Just listen to the awful intro to Why do fools. Someone like Quincy would have polished that up and made it sound less like a demo.
As regards the songs her solo take on Endless Love was quite simply not required. You should hear what Lionel had to say about that!
Sweet nothings and work that body are just dreadful. Whatever made her think they would enhance the album?
It is not all bad news. Mirror mirror is excellent. She sounds on point and we get the impression she is actually enjoying herself. Her production on this is good. You can hear the Chic influences and it is unfortunate she did not go down this particular path more.
Sweet surrender and Think i'm in love are nice songs, but seem to lack that extra spark to ignite them into something really worth listening to. Once again i blame Ms D for not pushing herself more in the studio .
The rest of the album contains bland fillers. Not exactly bad songs, but there is certainly something lacking in her delivery.
The whole project was rushed out and that is how it came across. Not many people were happy with the finished project, but they had the deadline to adhere too, and they were grateful for the momentum gathered from the Chic project and Endless love that helped see it home.
I have probably said way too much and i await the inevitable reprimand from people who think i have gone too far.

[mowsville]

Bluebrock...I absolutely love your input on this forum.

[Bluebrock]

Bluebrock...I absolutely love your input on this forum.
That is so kind of you to say mowsville. Your feedback is very much appreciated. I had to hold myself back in responding to sup fan. Not at him you understand. He happens to be a good friend of mine outside of this forum, but other casual viewers of this forum who may not necessarily be actual members may take exception to my comments, but i had to say what i felt in my heart. Whether that comes back to bite me on the backside remains to be seen. Thank you again my friend.

[sup_fan]

yes Blue - your history and insights are always enjoyed and appreciated. and of course, given your personal and professional relationship with Miss Ross, i understand that some information is not for public consumption. which is the right thing to do

Now that said hehehehe

i have so many disagreements with you on the music of Why lololol. and i love how we all [[more or less) can share our differences. there have been times that after reading a fan's opinion on here i realize "hey - i agree with that now!" like someone one said Nathan Jones should have built up more after the bridge and really exploded with synths and more ad libs and all. i think that was the missing ingredient there

but back to WDFFIL :)

the intro to Why - yes it's a drum machine and synthesized sound. but this was the 80s. i feel it's on point. and diana's lead and background vocals. it's playful, energetic.

Endless love - agree 100% and would love to hear what Lionel's thoughts were! lol

Sweet Nothings vs Work that body - between the two, i think the backing track of Work is stronger but the lyric and story for Sweet is stronger [[relatively). had Work NOT been on the lp, do you think Sweet might have held up better? it's definitely a campy track and having 2 was probably too much. but one?

and i do agree that some of the other tracks do lack spark. nice enough but nothing special.

Sweet Surrender could use a little polishing of the vocal, it's buried but that does give it more of misty, bedroom ambiance. although a bit more forward could have helped

And agree that Mirror is the star and would have been a fine direction for the entire lp.

Do you know if she worked with those writers again on anything?

[Bluebrock]

yes Blue - your history and insights are always enjoyed and appreciated. and of course, given your personal and professional relationship with Miss Ross, i understand that some information is not for public consumption. which is the right thing to do

Now that said hehehehe

i have so many disagreements with you on the music of Why lololol. and i love how we all [[more or less) can share our differences. there have been times that after reading a fan's opinion on here i realize "hey - i agree with that now!" like someone one said Nathan Jones should have built up more after the bridge and really exploded with synths and more ad libs and all. i think that was the missing ingredient there

but back to WDFFIL :)

the intro to Why - yes it's a drum machine and synthesized sound. but this was the 80s. i feel it's on point. and diana's lead and background vocals. it's playful, energetic.

Endless love - agree 100% and would love to hear what Lionel's thoughts were! lol

Sweet Nothings vs Work that body - between the two, i think the backing track of Work is stronger but the lyric and story for Sweet is stronger [[relatively). had Work NOT been on the lp, do you think Sweet might have held up better? it's definitely a campy track and having 2 was probably too much. but one?

and i do agree that some of the other tracks do lack spark. nice enough but nothing special.

Sweet Surrender could use a little polishing of the vocal, it's buried but that does give it more of misty, bedroom ambiance. although a bit more forward could have helped

And agree that Mirror is the star and would have been a fine direction for the entire lp.

Do you know if she worked with those writers again on anything?

I don't think she did which is rather sad.

[sansradio]

I don't think she did which is rather sad.

Well, she did cover Michael Sembello's "Maniac" at Central Park two years later, but that doesn't really count, does it? :p

[mowsville]

Your welcome Bluebrock..i look forward to reading many more.

[Ollie9]

My main problem with the album is the bland and lacklustre production. She was quite simply too inexperienced to do this project justice. Just listen to the awful intro to Why do fools. Someone like Quincy would have polished that up and made it sound less like a demo.
As regards the songs her solo take on Endless Love was quite simply not required. You should hear what Lionel had to say about that!
Sweet nothings and work that body are just dreadful. Whatever made her think they would enhance the album?
It is not all bad news. Mirror mirror is excellent. She sounds on point and we get the impression she is actually enjoying herself. Her production on this is good. You can hear the Chic influences and it is unfortunate she did not go down this particular path more.
Sweet surrender and Think i'm in love are nice songs, but seem to lack that extra spark to ignite them into something really worth listening to. Once again i blame Ms D for not pushing herself more in the studio .
The rest of the album contains bland fillers. Not exactly bad songs, but there is certainly something lacking in her delivery.
The whole project was rushed out and that is how it came across. Not many people were happy with the finished project, but they had the deadline to adhere too, and they were grateful for the momentum gathered from the Chic project and Endless love that helped see it home.
I have probably said way too much and i await the inevitable reprimand from people who think i have gone too far.

An on point and honest assessment of the album Bluebrock. The only critique i disagree with is regarding "Work That Body". I think the song as well as "Mirror Mirror" help save the album from being a total disaster. I remember reading two awful reviews of the album at the time. One was Blues & Soul magazine, the other Black Echoes. A quote from one read "The sooner M's Ross finds a producer who knows what they are doing, the better for all concerned.......I think that almost sums it all up.

p.s. It would be VERY interesting to know what Lionel thought of the solo "endless Love.

[florence]

An on point and honest assessment of the album Bluebrock. The only critique i disagree with is regarding "Work That Body". I think the song as well as "Mirror Mirror" help save the album from being a total disaster. I remember reading two awful reviews of the album at the time. One was Blues & Soul magazine, the other Black Echoes. A quote from one read "The sooner M's Ross finds a producer who knows what they are doing, the better for all concerned.......I think that almost sums it all up.

p.s. It would be VERY interesting to know what Lionel thought of the solo "endless Love.


Wasn't the solo version of Endless Love originally going to be the follow-up single to Fools?

Thankfully they reconsidered - it might have been very embarrassing for all concerned.

The duet with Lionel was pop perfection - why mar it?!

[Bluebrock]

Wasn't the solo version of Endless Love originally going to be the follow-up single to Fools?

Thankfully they reconsidered - it might have been very embarrassing for all concerned.

The duet with Lionel was pop perfection - why mar it?!
I never heard that Florence. If that was the case then thank heavens common sense prevailed. I was told that Mirror Mirror was briefly considered for the first single, but Diana always wanted Fools.

[reese]

I never heard that Florence. If that was the case then thank heavens common sense prevailed. I was told that Mirror Mirror was briefly considered for the first single, but Diana always wanted Fools.

I think J. Randy might have written that the solo ENDLESS LOVE was considered for single release in his last Diana book's discography. I must say that if so, it seems rather strange. I do know that it was sent to radio on a promo single [[white vinyl, I believe). My local dj had a mix of both versions that he played often.

I didn't see the need to re-record it except for adding more name value to the album. Perhaps they couldn't license the duet version from Mercury [[or Motown). Also, assuming there would eventually be a Ross RCA hits collection, they would have a version of her biggest hit.

[RanRan79]

WDFFIL just falls flat for me. I'll just go ahead and say it: aint enough soul in it for my taste. "Mirror, Mirror" is the highlight. "Work That Body" is another highlight if I ignore the silly lyrics. Vocally and track wise "Work That Body" is on point. "Think I'm In Love" is nice. Maybe with some punching up it could've been a single. I like the melody. "Sweet Surrender" has grown on me tremendously over the years. I really like it, but it still comes across as beneath Diana's talents. In the hands of another artist it might have been a classic. Pretty much everything else on the album is garbage, most of all the title track which sounds like Diana doing an early version of karaoke. Probably the most soul-less song she recorded, at least up until that point. How I hate her version of that song.

[RanRan79]

I still think she should've covered "There Goes My Baby" instead if she was going to do a throwback to her youth.

[lucky2012]

I was told that Mirror Mirror was briefly considered for the first single, but Diana always wanted Fools.
I don't know why it hasn't occurred to me before that Mirror, Mirror would have been the perfect RCA debut single. Unlike Chic, but current.

[florence]

Ian Phillips mentions Diana's solo Endless Love was touted as the the follow-up to Fools in his book Diana - Queen Of Motown.

As Reese says it was issued to club and radio DJs on white vinyl.

The song had been trimmed down with the second verse omitted.

[Bluebrock]

WDFFIL just falls flat for me. I'll just go ahead and say it: aint enough soul in it for my taste. "Mirror, Mirror" is the highlight. "Work That Body" is another highlight if I ignore the silly lyrics. Vocally and track wise "Work That Body" is on point. "Think I'm In Love" is nice. Maybe with some punching up it could've been a single. I like the melody. "Sweet Surrender" has grown on me tremendously over the years. I really like it, but it still comes across as beneath Diana's talents. In the hands of another artist it might have been a classic. Pretty much everything else on the album is garbage, most of all the title track which sounds like Diana doing an early version of karaoke. Probably the most soul-less song she recorded, at least up until that point. How I hate her version of that song.

I agree with everything you say except your views on Work That Body. Diana herself claimed to like the song, but i have never quite worked out if she was being serious. I am being very serious when i say i hated it then and still hate it now.

[RanRan79]

I don't know why it hasn't occurred to me before that Mirror, Mirror would have been the perfect RCA debut single. Unlike Chic, but current.

Agreed. I never thought about it either but that was the definitely a great debut single had it been chosen as the lead off. When you examine her RCA singles output, we should all be amazed that "Mirror, Mirror" was released at all. Later on someone thought "Pieces Of Ice" had hit written all over it.:rolleyes:

[RanRan79]

I agree with everything you say except your views on Work That Body. Diana herself claimed to like the song, but i have never quite worked out if she was being serious. I am being very serious when i say i hated it then and still hate it now.

I always hated it. I thought it was just a really stupid song. I think it was in the last year or two that I really started paying attention to just how great Diana sings it, the background vocalists are on point, and the music track is funky and tough. It's the lyrics that screw it all up. Had "Work That Body" had a "Physical" by Olivia N John "storyline", that song would've been a major hit. Instead it's about...exercise. But if you can't get past the lyrical content I definitely understand why the song might be hated. Thankfully I've managed to ignore the insipid lyrics and focus on the parts of the song that are top notch. Unfortunately I don't have that ability with every song.

[khansperac]

Am I The only one that likes the solo version of endless love? My theory is that she recorded it that way because that is how from that point it would be sung live in concert and she wanted everyone to get used to it.

[reese]

Am I The only one that likes the solo version of endless love? My theory is that she recorded it that way because that is how from that point it would be sung live in concert and she wanted everyone to get used to it.

I like the solo version. There are a few wild notes near the close but I never had a problem with it. But when she sang it in concert, her great background singer Bobby Glenn used to accompany her. After he passed, Quentin Anderson did it.

[vgalindo]

Am I The only one that likes the solo version of endless love? My theory is that she recorded it that way because that is how from that point it would be sung live in concert and she wanted everyone to get used to it.
No your not the only one. I like it too! Always have.

[Ollie9]

I can honestly say with hand on heart that Diana's solo version of "Endless Love" is in my humble opinion the worst vocal/recording of her ENTIRE career. That includes "We Are The Children" and "Girls" lol. That floating background flute sounds like something you would hear in an elevator and her voice floats off key more then once.. Just dreadful.
Having said that, if there are fans do like it then it was not a total waste of time.

[RanRan79]

Am I The only one that likes the solo version of endless love? My theory is that she recorded it that way because that is how from that point it would be sung live in concert and she wanted everyone to get used to it.

It's okay. But for me it's forgettable. I so often forget it's on that album. I think it pales in comparison to the original and thus it's hard for me to get into.

[marv2]

Does anyone know who sings background with Diana on this song ? I rate it as one of the best songs she recorded as a a solo.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ehk_BOWrwQM

Nice song. It sounds like she was begging, but it was too late! Mr. Gordy said go and don't come back after leaving Motown!

[captainjames]

so bitter and scarey

[jobeterob]

The duet Endless Love is in the classic songs of all time on many lists. I agree, the solo version pales in comparison; I never listen to it.

[kenneth]

I love "One More Chance" and most anything Ross did with Masser at the helm. I love her way with a ballad, and how Masser brought out the actress in her on several of his compositions. There's nothing casual or throwaway about her performance.

I bet Diane could have done some of the songs that Diane Warren wrote for Cher, and done them beautifully. I really think she excels at the "big ballad" type of number, especially at this point in her career.

I have never really listened to Ross' RCA output, though I did buy all the expanded editions when they were on sale at Funkytown Grooves. They're all reasonably priced and were very well mastered, but they include in some cases so many versions of the same song, that I've tended to want to cut them off before the end of the CD. Funkytown made the same mistake with some of Dionne Warwick's later output. One CD I bought from them has that awful "Got a Date" I think in five different versions on one CD. Made me want the un-expanded edition!

But regarding the RCA albums, I will have to go back and give "Why Do Fools Fall in Love" another listen.

[kenneth]

Nice song. It sounds like she was begging, but it was too late! Mr. Gordy said go and don't come back after leaving Motown!

Okay, Marv2, I know you don't like the lady but I hope you are joking because that is just plain silly...and besides she did come back later anyway, didn't she? I mean, I'm just sayin'...!

[PeaceNHarmony]

The duet Endless Love is in the classic songs of all time on many lists. I agree, the solo version pales in comparison; I never listen to it.Interesting; I find the duet excellent but prefer the solo version. I think it is one of Diana's many 'good Lord the lady can sing!' performances.

[PeaceNHarmony]

Am I The only one that likes the solo version of endless love? My theory is that she recorded it that way because that is how from that point it would be sung live in concert and she wanted everyone to get used to it.NO! I LOVE it! See my reply to JRob -

[captainjames]

Okay, Marv2, I know you don't like the lady but I hope you are joking because that is just plain silly...and besides she did come back later anyway, didn't she? I mean, I'm just sayin'...!

She recorded it while still at Motown so everything he eludes to with Diana is poison.

[marv2]

Okay, Marv2, I know you don't like the lady but I hope you are joking because that is just plain silly...and besides she did come back later anyway, didn't she? I mean, I'm just sayin'...!

He wasn't there. LOL!

[kenneth]

He wasn't there. LOL!

OK! I know enough to leave this one alone!

[jobeterob]

OK! I know enough to leave this one alone!

And I recall Susaye once saying on here that Marv wasn’t there either

[Bluebrock]

I love "One More Chance" and most anything Ross did with Masser at the helm. I love her way with a ballad, and how Masser brought out the actress in her on several of his compositions. There's nothing casual or throwaway about her performance.

I bet Diane could have done some of the songs that Diane Warren wrote for Cher, and done them beautifully. I really think she excels at the "big ballad" type of number, especially at this point in her career.

I have never really listened to Ross' RCA output, though I did buy all the expanded editions when they were on sale at Funkytown Grooves. They're all reasonably priced and were very well mastered, but they include in some cases so many versions of the same song, that I've tended to want to cut them off before the end of the CD. Funkytown made the same mistake with some of Dionne Warwick's later output. One CD I bought from them has that awful "Got a Date" I think in five different versions on one CD. Made me want the un-expanded edition!

But regarding the RCA albums, I will have to go back and give "Why Do Fools Fall in Love" another listen.
Just going off topic briefly i have to say i totally agree with you with regards to Dionne's "got a date" expanded edition. It was a bad enough album to begin with, but all those additional mixes made it a very difficult listening experience. Whatever was Luther thinking?
As regards Diana's expanded rca editions i found them to be for the most part rather tedious. Too many mixes of the same songs in many cases.
Good luck with listening to "Why do fools". You may well need it!

[RanRan79]

Nice song. It sounds like she was begging, but it was too late! Mr. Gordy said go and don't come back after leaving Motown!

I think you're confusing Diana with Mary on this one Marv. Diana was still at Motown when she recorded "One More Chance", not RCA. If Gordy could've afforded to pay her what RCA was offering her, she never would've left and he would've given her the money to stay. From a business standpoint he'd have to be the biggest idiot in music to not give a damn and let her walk out the door. Instead it was Mary that was shown the door and told to go and not come back. She was even given the masters to her latest recordings. Gordy just didn't care at that point when it came to Mary. Diana was always a different story. Let's not re-write history here.

[Bluebrock]

I think you're confusing Diana with Mary on this one Marv. Diana was still at Motown when she recorded "One More Chance", not RCA. If Gordy could've afforded to pay her what RCA was offering her, she never would've left and he would've given her the money to stay. From a business standpoint he'd have to be the biggest idiot in music to not give a damn and let her walk out the door. Instead it was Mary that was shown the door and told to go and not come back. She was even given the masters to her latest recordings. Gordy just didn't care at that point when it came to Mary. Diana was always a different story. Let's not re-write history here.
Well said. The voice of reason on this forum.

[RanRan79]

I love "One More Chance" and most anything Ross did with Masser at the helm. I love her way with a ballad, and how Masser brought out the actress in her on several of his compositions. There's nothing casual or throwaway about her performance.

I bet Diane could have done some of the songs that Diane Warren wrote for Cher, and done them beautifully. I really think she excels at the "big ballad" type of number, especially at this point in her career.



I agree with all points. At Motown I think A&S, Masser, Perry and Quincy mastered producing Diana Ross. While Diana recorded a few cuts that rank among my fav Diana songs of all time [[such as "Swept Away", "Missing You", "Mirror, Mirror" and a couple of others) I don't think anyone mastered the Ross voice at RCA, with Lionel Richie being an exception, but that was one song.

Ross' RCA problem [[aside from Diana being in charge of her own creative output...yikes!) was that she kept attempting to compete with the new crop of folks coming up in the industry. She was trying hard to hold onto her pop crown but nobody was here for it, not only because the music mostly sucked [[again..."Pieces of Ice"...) but also because a lot of it seemed beneath where Diana Ross, aged late 30s early 40s, should've been headed. She was too old for pop confections or looking for a rock edge. The rock edge worked for Tina Turner because one can argue that Tina was even more rock and roll than she was soul/pop during her entire career, so it was easy for people to buy it.

Diana's biggest hits as a solo have almost exclusively been ballads. Hooking back up with Masser or recording Warren compositions would've been the thing that kept Ross relevant as the 80s moved on. Not that she couldn't have taken chances on other producers also, but I think Masser and Warren were safe bets.

[Ollie9]

Interesting; I find the duet excellent but prefer the solo version. I think it is one of Diana's many 'good Lord the lady can sing!' performances.

It's funny, but this is my one and only never thought Diana could sound this bad songs.............I'm mighty pleased there is only one.

[sup_fan]

I agree with all points. At Motown I think A&S, Masser, Perry and Quincy mastered producing Diana Ross. While Diana recorded a few cuts that rank among my fav Diana songs of all time [[such as "Swept Away", "Missing You", "Mirror, Mirror" and a couple of others) I don't think anyone mastered the Ross voice at RCA, with Lionel Richie being an exception, but that was one song.

Ross' RCA problem [[aside from Diana being in charge of her own creative output...yikes!) was that she kept attempting to compete with the new crop of folks coming up in the industry. She was trying hard to hold onto her pop crown but nobody was here for it, not only because the music mostly sucked [[again..."Pieces of Ice"...) but also because a lot of it seemed beneath where Diana Ross, aged late 30s early 40s, should've been headed. She was too old for pop confections or looking for a rock edge. The rock edge worked for Tina Turner because one can argue that Tina was even more rock and roll than she was soul/pop during her entire career, so it was easy for people to buy it.

Diana's biggest hits as a solo have almost exclusively been ballads. Hooking back up with Masser or recording Warren compositions would've been the thing that kept Ross relevant as the 80s moved on. Not that she couldn't have taken chances on other producers also, but I think Masser and Warren were safe bets.

i think the biggest problem was as you said, Diana being in charge of Diana. Berry would often push her to do things she was apprehensive about or didn't want to do. but she did them 1) because he said so and 2) because he believed in her.

there are moments during the RCA period that hint at what could have been:

Mirror mirror - she could have broadened her appeal with a more rock sound. but a rock sound done A La Diana. she shouldn't have to replicate someone else, she was enough of a force in music that she could lead the way. This sound is something she should have explored. Swept Away [[although too far after Mirror) was a good continuation of this

Touch by touch - while i don't think this would ever be the highlight of a Diana discography, it is catchy and fun. sort of the definition of 80s pop.

ross 83 - the Gary Katz stuff is ok. not the most remarkable music for diana but it works. however her vocals are just not exciting enough. she just sort of seems a bit bored with it all

Missing You - wonderful ballad. imagine if this thought and care had been applied to In Your Arms.

[Ollie9]

there are moments during the RCA period that hint at what could have been:
Mirror mirror - she could have broadened her appeal with a more rock sound. but a rock sound done A La Diana. she shouldn't have to replicate someone else, she was enough of a force in music that she could lead the way. This sound is something she should have explored. Swept Away [[although too far after Mirror) was a good continuation

I disagree. The odd rock oriented song Like "Mirror Mirror or "Swept Away is fine but for me that is not Diana's essence and most certainly not what made her famous in the first place. Part of what made the rca years such a barren period for hit singles, particularly after 84 was that with the exception of "Missing You and "Chain reaction she rarely recorded anything that could be considered soulful pop. That was and still is Diana's forte.

[marv2]

I disagree. The odd rock oriented song Like "Mirror Mirror or "Swept Away is fine but for me that is not Diana's essence and most certainly not what made her famous in the first place. Part of what made the rca years such a barren period for hit singles, particularly after 84 was that with the exception of "Missing You and "Chain reaction she rarely recorded anything that could be considered soulful pop. That was and still is Diana's forte.

Even Chain Reaction flopped in the U.S.

[captainjames]

Even Chain Reaction flopped in the U.S.

yeah so did Bad Weather............... its a shame.

[marv2]

yeah so did Bad Weather............... its a shame.

I'm not sure what Bad Weather has to do with this thread,but since you mentioned it. Neither Bad Weather or Chain Reaction was played on the radio in America.

[marv2]

yeah so did Bad Weather............... its a shame.

"It's A Shame" was a much better record than "Chain Reaction". It also was a hit! "Chain Reaction" was a flop......in America.

[detmotownguy]

I'm not sure what Bad Weather has to do with this thread,but since you mentioned it. Neither Bad Weather or Chain Reaction was played on the radio in America.
I suggest that bad weather sounded fine in their live act, but maybe a bit boring on the radio.

[jobeterob]

I suggest that bad weather sounded fine in their live act, but maybe a bit boring on the radio.

True

All acts eventually end their hit making streaks; that’s about all BW and CR have in common. CR had a chance at being a hit and was in many countries. BW just isn’t a very good song

[marv2]

I suggest that bad weather sounded fine in their live act, but maybe a bit boring on the radio.

"Bad Weather" was a great record that was poorly promoted and distributed. The Supremes were finally sounding more soulful, more funky. Stevie did a great job on that one.

[marv2]

True

All acts eventually end their hit making streaks; that’s about all BW and CR have in common. CR had a chance at being a hit and was in many countries. BW just isn’t a very good song

Hardly anyone in America heard it or bought it. "Chain Reaction was too hokey sounding with lyrics that made no sense in my opinion. People were listening to Sade, Patti LaBelle, Janet Jackson, Anita Baker and of course Whitney Houston at that time. Women that were putting out relevant music for the time. American radio was through with Diana Ross by the mid-80s. Not one of her singles once she returned to Motown even charted on the Billboard Pop Charts. She released quite a few too.

[Bluebrock]

Even Chain Reaction flopped in the U.S.
So did every Mary Wilson solo single domestically and internationally so whats your point?. Chain Reaction was a huge hit overseas and did actually hit the lower reaches of the US pop charts which is far more than Mary Wilson ever achieved.

[Sotosound]

"Bad Weather" was a great record that was poorly promoted and distributed. The Supremes were finally sounding more soulful, more funky. Stevie did a great job on that one.

I really like "Bad Weather".

Musically it's great, but it isn't the most commercial Stevie composition and production. Those lovely chord changes and horn interplays in the intro alone are enough to frighten the horses!

So although I enjoy listening to it, I can understand how commercially it might have been a slightly unsettling step off the well-beaten path for traditional Supremes fans, especially since it followed hot on the heels of the very pop-y, highly accessible and and slightly retro "Floy Joy" album.

[Sotosound]

Hardly anyone in America heard it or bought it. "Chain Reaction was too hokey sounding with lyrics that made no sense in my opinion. People were listening to Sade, Patti LaBelle, Janet Jackson, Anita Baker and of course Whitney Houston at that time. Women that were putting out relevant music for the time. American radio was through with Diana Ross by the mid-80s. Not one of her singles once she returned to Motown even charted on the Billboard Pop Charts. She released quite a few too.

In the UK we were also listening to all of those artists, but we also sent "Chain Reaction" to Number One.

It was fun, it was slightly retro, but it was also "current" and eminently danceable, and it's been a floor-filler ever since. It was also a great pop song.

What it showed is that the classic Supremes sound never lost its appeal. Janet Jackson, Vanessa Paradis and Ace of Base also subsequently recognised this and exploited it.

It might also be that there was a slight divergence of taste regarding the Bee Gees at that time since their resurgence in the UK in the late 80s wasn't quite matched in the USA. The UK seemed more open to what they were doing, including producing a smash hit for Diana Ross.

But it's also always been that way between the UK and the USA, and sometimes it takes 20 or 30 years before a record that hits in one country but misses in the other gets the wider recognition that it deserves.

For instance, "What's Going On" and "Let's Get It On" by Marvin Gaye are viewed as classics in the UK, but the UK didn't actually chart WGO at all, and LGIO only scraped into the UK Top 40.

Go figure. Beats me.

[Ollie9]

In the UK we were also listening to all of those artists, but we also sent "Chain Reaction" to Number One.

It was fun, it was slightly retro, but it was also "current" and eminently danceable, and it's been a floor-filler ever since. It was also a great pop song.

What it showed is that the classic Supremes sound never lost its appeal. Janet Jackson, Vanessa Paradis and Ace of Base also subsequently recognised this and exploited it.

It might also be that there was a slight divergence of taste regarding the Bee Gees at that time since their resurgence in the UK in the late 80s wasn't quite matched in the USA. The UK seemed more open to what they were doing, including producing a smash hit for Diana Ross.

But it's also always been that way between the UK and the USA, and sometimes it takes 20 or 30 years before a record that hits in one country but misses in the other gets the wider recognition that it deserves.

For instance, "What's Going On" and "Let's Get It On" by Marvin Gaye are viewed as classics in the UK, but the UK didn't actually chart WGO at all, and LGIO only scraped into the UK Top 40.

Go figure. Beats me.

I am in total agreement Sotosound. Your observations regarding the Bee Gees are also spot on.
"Chain Reaction" is the perfect pop record and more than deserved it's international [[bar usa) success. More of this would have been nice.
I do partly agree with marv in that during those rca years Diana seldom had her finger on the button as regards music trends and the type of music her fans craved for.

[TheMotownManiac]

I'm not sure what Bad Weather has to do with this thread,but since you mentioned it. Neither Bad Weather or Chain Reaction was played on the radio in America.

Initially, Chain Reaction got big support on the #1 station in the US:WABC
However, it didn’t get adds in other crucial markets. When it was re-issued, WABC didn’t add it, naturally, but it did get some play here and there to limp into the 60’s.

WABC was big on Diana Ross solo:
Upside Down and WDFFIL both were charted there for 25 weeks
its My Turn for 22
Endless Love was #1 for 14 weeks
and the diana album was on their album playlist for months

[TheMotownManiac]

My main problem with the album is the bland and lacklustre production. She was quite simply too inexperienced to do this project justice. Just listen to the awful intro to Why do fools. Someone like Quincy would have polished that up and made it sound less like a demo.
As regards the songs her solo take on Endless Love was quite simply not required. You should hear what Lionel had to say about that!
Sweet nothings and work that body are just dreadful. Whatever made her think they would enhance the album?
It is not all bad news. Mirror mirror is excellent. She sounds on point and we get the impression she is actually enjoying herself. Her production on this is good. You can hear the Chic influences and it is unfortunate she did not go down this particular path more.
Sweet surrender and Think i'm in love are nice songs, but seem to lack that extra spark to ignite them into something really worth listening to. Once again i blame Ms D for not pushing herself more in the studio .
The rest of the album contains bland fillers. Not exactly bad songs, but there is certainly something lacking in her delivery.
The whole project was rushed out and that is how it came across. Not many people were happy with the finished project, but they had the deadline to adhere too, and they were grateful for the momentum gathered from the Chic project and Endless love that helped see it home.
I have probably said way too much and i await the inevitable reprimand from people who think i have gone too far.

‘I couldn’t agree more. When I first played the album I couldn’t believe this was the follow up to the biggest record of her career????? I liked mirror mirror and think I’m in love, Plus even though it’s nothing more than cheesy Schmaltz pablum disco, I didn’t mind it’s never too late at all…… And I think if it had a harder edge to it and more soulful it would’ve work as a third single. I’ve never cared for the title song, or the solo endless love - but I think it was wise to put it on there, and I don’t have anything against Sweet nothing‘s I mean it was perfectly fine but not too songs from the 50s please…… And that led to the dreadful release of so close the following year as a limp dick single. I shook my head until it rattled trying to figure out how this nothing album could’ve possibly followed up the brilliant Chic Album. I think some of her vocals are perfunctory, but most of all, if 4 million people in the previous year and purchased your album what made you think at those same people we’re going to want to hear music like this????? Even the album cover is a gigantic went down compared to the year before…… and even though I like the mirror mirror, I wasn’t crazy about it. And even though I like to think I’m in love, I just don’t think it has any business being on the follow up album that had upside down on it.

[Ollie9]

Getting back to the "To Love Again album, it's a huge shame that the album could not have been released at the same time "Endless Love" was climbing the charts.
It could have been titled Endless Love" to include "Dreaming Of You". Had this been the case i think the album could have gone top 10.
One Masser song i so wish Diana had recorded is "Someone That I Used To Love". A beautiful, poignant song that was perfect for her. Natalie Cole had a minor hit with it but i'm sure Diana could have had the definitive version and a sizeable hit.
After the massive success of 20 Golden Greats in the UK, i think the Masser tribute idea was a mistake. The public did not need TMITM or Theme From Mahogany featured on vinyl so soon after. I think "After You" and "All Night Lover" would have worked better.

[captainjames]

"It's A Shame" was a much better record than "Chain Reaction". It also was a hit! "Chain Reaction" was a flop......in America.

and so was Bad Weather

[marv2]

In the UK we were also listening to all of those artists, but we also sent "Chain Reaction" to Number One.

It was fun, it was slightly retro, but it was also "current" and eminently danceable, and it's been a floor-filler ever since. It was also a great pop song.

What it showed is that the classic Supremes sound never lost its appeal. Janet Jackson, Vanessa Paradis and Ace of Base also subsequently recognised this and exploited it.

It might also be that there was a slight divergence of taste regarding the Bee Gees at that time since their resurgence in the UK in the late 80s wasn't quite matched in the USA. The UK seemed more open to what they were doing, including producing a smash hit for Diana Ross.

But it's also always been that way between the UK and the USA, and sometimes it takes 20 or 30 years before a record that hits in one country but misses in the other gets the wider recognition that it deserves.

For instance, "What's Going On" and "Let's Get It On" by Marvin Gaye are viewed as classics in the UK, but the UK didn't actually chart WGO at all, and LGIO only scraped into the UK Top 40.

Go figure. Beats me.

Regarding the "Supremes sound" which was "The Motown Sound" largely created by The Funk Brothers did experience a renew popularity in the mid 80s. Some of the better examples are

Stevie Wonder - Part Time Lover - 1985 #1
Hall & Oates - Maneater - 1982-83 #1
Katrina and the Waves - Walking on Sunshine 1985 #9

All of those songs were hits in the U.S.

[Sotosound]

Good examples that I'd forgotten about.

[[Better than what?)

In the UK we also had "A Town Called Malice" by The Jam.

[midnightman]

Diana had bad career advice during the RCA years and I'm sure she'll agree with me.

So did the Supremes after 1972.

Plus most artists stay relevant for a decade and a half before they get replaced by someone else occasionally making a comeback here and there.

That's just reality.

[marv2]

Diana had bad career advice during the RCA years and I'm sure she'll agree with me.

So did the Supremes after 1972.

Plus most artists stay relevant for a decade and a half before they get replaced by someone else occasionally making a comeback here and there.

That's just reality.

She was listening at lot to Gene Simmons, who I cannot respect at all.

[vgalindo]

She was listening at lot to Gene Simmons, who I cannot respect at all.
And Mary Wilson was listening a lot to wife beater Pedro Ferrer , who I despise and surely don’t respect!!

[captainjames]

And Mary Wilson was listening a lot to wife beater Pedro Ferrer , who I despise and surely don’t respect!!

True, which is probably why we lost Cindy Birdsong and almost comparable to Flo.

[marv2]

and so was Bad Weather

Technically "Bad Weather" reaching #87 on the Billboard Hot 100 did better in America than "Chain Reaction" that went to #95. Then she got desperate and they remixed it and re-released it and it petered out at #66 but on it's original release, it barely scrapped the Hot 100. Now the only reason I am talking these two records and comparing them is because YOU brought it up!

[captainjames]

TOMATOE, TOMATO it still bombed!!
The only reason I brought it up is because you brought up Chain Reaction bombing while my thread is about One More Chance.

[marv2]

TOMATOE, TOMATO it still bombed!!
The only reason I brought it up is because you brought up Chain Reaction bombing while my thread is about One More Chance.

No I didn't. It was Ollie9 that first mentioned that flop record in post #96.

[Ollie9]

No I didn't. It was Ollie9 that first mentioned that flop record in post #96.

I deny everything lol. I think it's only peeps from the dear ole usa who consider "Chain Reaction" a flop. Elsewhere it's seen as a classic Diana smasheroo and quite rightly so.:D

[marv2]

I deny everything lol. I think it's only peeps from the dear ole usa who consider "Chain Reaction" a flop. Elsewhere it's seen as a classic Diana smasheroo and quite rightly so.:D

Ollie come on! It's not that serious. LOL! Ole Capt'n James just likes to argue and start trivial fights. I don't know who's fault it is that Chain Reaction got NO airplay in America, at least not in Philadelphia where I was living at the time.

[midnightman]

I suggest that bad weather sounded fine in their live act, but maybe a bit boring on the radio.

BW was way better live but studio wise, it fell flat. If he wanted to help the Supremes, he should've done for them what he tried to do for Syreeta.

[TheMotownManiac]

Technically "Bad Weather" reaching #87 on the Billboard Hot 100 did better in America than "Chain Reaction" that went to #95. Then she got desperate and they remixed it and re-released it and it petered out at #66 but on it's original release, it barely scrapped the Hot 100. Now the only reason I am talking these two records and comparing them is because YOU brought it up!

Technically chain reaction hit number one and was top 10 in a number of countries and spurred huge sales of the eaten alive album in those respective countries where as bad weather was a bomb everywhere……

[captainjames]

Ollie come on! It's not that serious. LOL! Ole Capt'n James just likes to argue and start trivial fights. I don't know who's fault it is that Chain Reaction got NO airplay in America, at least not in Philadelphia where I was living at the time.

Boy Please !!!! You bring it and then run as a victim. I never start fights but I do call you out when you are wrong or say what I am saying is BS.

[Bluebrock]

Getting back to the "To Love Again album, it's a huge shame that the album could not have been released at the same time "Endless Love" was climbing the charts.
It could have been titled Endless Love" to include "Dreaming Of You". Had this been the case i think the album could have gone top 10.
One Masser song i so wish Diana had recorded is "Someone That I Used To Love". A beautiful, poignant song that was perfect for her. Natalie Cole had a minor hit with it but i'm sure Diana could have had the definitive version and a sizeable hit.
After the massive success of 20 Golden Greats in the UK, i think the Masser tribute idea was a mistake. The public did not need TMITM or Theme From Mahogany featured on vinyl so soon after. I think "After You" and "All Night Lover" would have worked better.
Barbra Streisand also recorded a nice version of Someone that i used to love.

[Ollie9]

Barbra Streisand also recorded a nice version of Someone that i used to love.

She did indeed. I quite like Streisand's version but think Natalie cole has the edge.
I really love the song and so wish Diana had recorded it for the "To Love Again" album. To me it was a natural.
With songs such as this and by motown being able to include EL and DOY the album could have been huge with hits a plenty. As it were they were forced to release two fairly pleasant album tracks as singles which never stood a chance.
Talking of B.S, i think her version of "Home is fairly awful. It should have been great, but it just doesn't work. Diana really does have the definitive on that one.....imo.

[Bluebrock]

She did indeed. I quite like Streisand's version but think Natalie cole has the edge.
I really love the song and so wish Diana had recorded it for the "To Love Again" album. To me it was a natural.
With songs such as this and by motown being able to include EL and DOY the album could have been huge with hits a plenty. As it were they were forced to release two fairly pleasant album tracks as singles which never stood a chance.
Talking of B.S, i think her version of "Home is fairly awful. It should have been great, but it just doesn't work. Diana really does have the definitive on that one.....imo.

I wouldn't say it was awful, but i don't think it will be mentioned when tributes are paid when she eventually passes, which i trust will not be for quite some time yet. I thoroughly enjoyed my time with her recently. She was totally different to what i was expecting. A true legend in every respect.

[lucky2012]

One Masser song i so wish Diana had recorded is "Someone That I Used To Love". A beautiful, poignant song that was perfect for her. Natalie Cole had a minor hit with it but i'm sure Diana could have had the definitive version and a sizeable hit.
The first time I heard this song [[by Natalie Cole) I knew it should have been recorded by Diana. Natalie and Barbra interpret it well but I can just imagine and "hear" the perfect version by Ross.


Getting back to the "To Love Again album, it's a huge shame that the album could not have been released at the same time "Endless Love" was climbing the charts.
It could have been titled Endless Love" to include "Dreaming Of You". Had this been the case i think the album could have gone top 10.
Yes, that would have been better. That way, another single from diana could have been released instead of One More Chance. [[One More Chance is my favorite of the "new" Masser songs on To Love Again. I think it is a marvelous, dramatic vocal performance by Ross. But it was a poor, or at least not timely, choice for a single.)

[florence]

I can't see another big hit single on diana unless My Old Piano had been released in the US in 1980 on the heels of I'm Coming Out when the album was still hot instead of being held back until 1982 and in direct competition with Mirror Mirror.

Whatever your opinion of the music Diana had a very successful start to her RCA stint.

It's hard to get a handle on what would be successful for Diana in the UK after 1980 but for me the lost UK hit from To Love Again was Stay With Me - it would certainly have been massive in the early and mid-70s.

And Chain Reaction was BIG in Boston and Cleveland.

[midnightman]

She did indeed. I quite like Streisand's version but think Natalie cole has the edge.
I really love the song and so wish Diana had recorded it for the "To Love Again" album. To me it was a natural.
With songs such as this and by motown being able to include EL and DOY the album could have been huge with hits a plenty. As it were they were forced to release two fairly pleasant album tracks as singles which never stood a chance.
Talking of B.S, i think her version of "Home is fairly awful. It should have been great, but it just doesn't work. Diana really does have the definitive on that one.....imo.

Barbra covered "Home"? Oh Lord...

[vgalindo]

Barbra covered "Home"? Oh Lord...
Yes she did. And it is the Diana Ross movie version. It was ok but I prefer Diana Ross’ much more.

[midnightman]

Yes she did. And it is the Diana Ross movie version. It was ok but I prefer Diana Ross’ much more.

I really don't wanna hear any other diva do it unless their names are Stephanie, Diana or Whitney. Those are the only three who can claim some ownership to it [[and SM would get the bulk of the ownership since she did it first lol followed by DR and WH).

[Ollie9]

Barbra covered "Home"? Oh Lord...

The B.S version starts off ok, but seems to lose it's way quite early on. It's all very safe and MOR. A white breadstick version.
Can you ever imagine Barbra cast as Dorothy Gale in a 60's/70's adaption of The Wizard Of Oz..... It's food for thought.:eek:

[Ollie9]

I wouldn't say it was awful, but i don't think it will be mentioned when tributes are paid when she eventually passes, which i trust will not be for quite some time yet. I thoroughly enjoyed my time with her recently. She was totally different to what i was expecting. A true legend in every respect.

Perhaps not awful, just a little bland. I met her in 82 but only got to say hi.
She was in the UK working on Yentl and my b/friend was best friend with the costume designer of the film. All the crew said she was a real trooper. I know for a fact she did not want to be called M's Streisand all the time lol.

[RanRan79]

My bottom line opinion of "Bad Weather" is that it is a really good song. I do think Jean's lead was more laidback on the recorded version and after hearing her live, the record would've probably been better with a more lively and passionate performance, because Jean killed this song live, especially on Soul Train.

"Chain Reaction" had pop hit written all over it. I personally suspect that the turn off wasn't Diana or the track but was instead the voices of the Bee Gees. Had they given Diana a soulful backing group of vocalists- the Waters perhaps- I think the song would've gone top 10. Ross and Bee Gees don't make for a good blend of sound. Diana could've even done the backgrounds herself and made the record much more ear appealing to US audiences.

[RanRan79]

I really don't wanna hear any other diva do it unless their names are Stephanie, Diana or Whitney. Those are the only three who can claim some ownership to it [[and SM would get the bulk of the ownership since she did it first lol followed by DR and WH).

I love "Home", and wouldn't mind it being tackled by any vocalist that is going to do it justice. Steph, Diana and Whitney are definitely the three who sing my favorite versions, in that order. I'm not a Streisand fan so I shudder at the thought of what she may have done to it.

[Bluebrock]

Perhaps not awful, just a little bland. I met her in 82 but only got to say hi.
She was in the UK working on Yentl and my b/friend was best friend with the costume designer of the film. All the crew said she was a real trooper. I know for a fact she did not want to be called M's Streisand all the time lol.

She was lovely Ollie. I was expecting tissues and issues, but i got a very astute and intelligent lady. She was calm, happy and relaxed. An absolute pleasure to work with. Those 5 or 6 days literally flew by. She promised to return for a tour in 2021 when she will hopefully have her next album out. Fingers crossed.

[PeaceNHarmony]

She was lovely Ollie. I was expecting tissues and issues, but i got a very astute and intelligent lady. She was calm, happy and relaxed. An absolute pleasure to work with. Those 5 or 6 days literally flew by. She promised to return for a tour in 2021 when she will hopefully have her next album out. Fingers crossed. ... perhaps in 2021 one will find one's self in need of an utterly adorable assistant with a sharp mind, great work ethic and a tongue that could clip a hedge?

[sup_fan]

I can't see another big hit single on diana unless My Old Piano had been released in the US in 1980 on the heels of I'm Coming Out when the album was still hot instead of being held back until 1982 and in direct competition with Mirror Mirror.

Whatever your opinion of the music Diana had a very successful start to her RCA stint.

It's hard to get a handle on what would be successful for Diana in the UK after 1980 but for me the lost UK hit from To Love Again was Stay With Me - it would certainly have been massive in the early and mid-70s.

And Chain Reaction was BIG in Boston and Cleveland.

yeah Piano is ok but was never anything remarkable to me. Have Fun is soooooo chic that it lacks anything new or exciting to make it DR or make it memorable. Tenderness is a bit stronger. and Friend and Now are ballads and i think not strong enough for singles

Perhaps Give Up would have had enough excitement. But it pales compared to Upside and Coming.

I would have moved her either into a 2nd Chic lp or Lionel content.

[Ollie9]

She was lovely Ollie. I was expecting tissues and issues, but i got a very astute and intelligent lady. She was calm, happy and relaxed. An absolute pleasure to work with. Those 5 or 6 days literally flew by. She promised to return for a tour in 2021 when she will hopefully have her next album out. Fingers crossed.

I know she has a personal assistant named Renata who has been with her like forever. Judy, who worked on the costumes told my partner she was nice but you had to know your stuff because she has such an eye for detail.
So come on Bluebrock, please spill some beans. How does working with Diana compare with Barbra. From what i do know, Bab's is a perfectionist but a lot more relaxed around people then Diana.
I have only once seen Diana out and about in South London. Perhaps she was having a bad day....... That's all i will say.

[Bluebrock]

... perhaps in 2021 one will find one's self in need of an utterly adorable assistant with a sharp mind, great work ethic and a tongue that could clip a hedge?
Perhaps. who knows? Ha ha.

[Bluebrock]

I know she has a personal assistant named Renata who has been with her like forever. Judy, who worked on the costumes told my partner she was nice but you had to know your stuff because she has such an eye for detail.
So come on Bluebrock, please spill some beans. How does working with Diana compare with Barbra. From what i do know, Bab's is a perfectionist but a lot more relaxed around people then Diana.
I have only once seen Diana out and about in South London. Perhaps she was having a bad day....... That's all i will say.
I am forbidden to say too much, but what i will say is that Barbra had a far better knowledge of her career than Diana did of hers. When i mentioned certain songs Barbra recorded she could tell me what album it was on and who wrote and produced it. Diana's knowledge of her own recordings was most disappointing. It was most obvious that Diana's career played a poor 2nd to her personal life, whilst Barbra was fully in control of her own career and controlled every aspect of it. Unlike Diana she told me she has never recorded a song that she did not fully believe in. However she did admit that a couple of her films were done purely to satisfy a financial commitment.

[Ollie9]

I am forbidden to say too much, but what i will say is that Barbra had a far better knowledge of her career than Diana did of hers. When i mentioned certain songs Barbra recorded she could tell me what album it was on and who wrote and produced it. Diana's knowledge of her own recordings was most disappointing. It was most obvious that Diana's career played a poor 2nd to her personal life, whilst Barbra was fully in control of her own career and controlled every aspect of it. Unlike Diana she told me she has never recorded a song that she did not fully believe in. However she did admit that a couple of her films were done purely to satisfy a financial commitment.

Ta for sharing Bluebrock. It's a shame the two women have never met. I admire Diana for putting family first. Her priorities have always been in a good place.
Both women have worked with Barry Gibb, but with the exception of CR, Barry seems to keep his best stuff for Streisand.

[midnightman]

Diana and Barbra are two different women. Diana had thought about how she was gonna take care of her children, plus she spent years molded by a Svengali so it's no surprise she was bad with musical stuff.

Barbra has basically been her own boss since the start of her career. Therein lies the difference between the two.

[khansperac]

I’m willing to bet Diana has recorded more songs than Barbra. Some people simply don’t have that kind of memory/recall, like Barbra or Martha, or Mary, with details. Diana always says her career comes 2nd, and more recently 3rd. Can’t fault her for putting family first. Regarding if they have ever met, I’m sure they must have. They were both at the Legends Ball. So that would be at least one time.

[Bluebrock]

Ta for sharing Bluebrock. It's a shame the two women have never met. I admire Diana for putting family first. Her priorities have always been in a good place.
Both women have worked with Barry Gibb, but with the exception of CR, Barry seems to keep his best stuff for Streisand.
They have met. We were discussing Barry Gibb's work with various divas, and i slipped it into the conversation about working with Diana, and i cheekily said it was a pity they had never met face to face. She very quickly put me in my place and said they had met on a few occasions. She recalled a tribute show for Mohammed Ali where they spoke , and also a Diana concert in the early 70's where she went backstage and met Diana. She also told me in no uncertain terms that Diana had attended at least two of her shows. I quickly recoiled and changed the subject......

[Bluebrock]

I’m willing to bet Diana has recorded more songs than Barbra. Some people simply don’t have that kind of memory/recall, like Barbra or Martha, or Mary, with details. Diana always says her career comes 2nd, and more recently 3rd. Can’t fault her for putting family first. Regarding if they have ever met, I’m sure they must have. They were both at the Legends Ball. So that would be at least one time.
Possibly, but Barbra did tell me that she had literally "dozens" of unreleased masters which she has been revisiting. She said some of them would finally see the light of day on future collections.

[reese]

Possibly, but Barbra did tell me that she had literally "dozens" of unreleased masters which she has been revisiting. She said some of them would finally see the light of day on future collections.

A while back, Barbra put out a cd entitled RELEASE ME, which contained unreleased material from her entire career. It was a great collection. I think her version of HOME was from this project. It would be nice to hear some more.

[marv2]

I am in total agreement Sotosound. Your observations regarding the Bee Gees are also spot on.
"Chain Reaction" is the perfect pop record and more than deserved it's international [[bar usa) success. More of this would have been nice.
I do partly agree with marv in that during those rca years Diana seldom had her finger on the button as regards music trends and the type of music her fans craved for.

But you cannot just disregard the USA, the largest market for popular music. Diana Ross even performed "Chain Reaction" and "Eaten Alive" on The American Music Awards, which is nationally televised and still both records bombed. Same thing happened a few years later when she was promoting her "Take Me Higher" album during the half time show of the Super Bowl. The album and all singles flopped in the U.S. The Super Bowl as a platform and they still did not sell? OMG!

Wasn't her hour long, network television special "Red Hot Rhythm & Blues" used as a vehicle to promote her then current album? With that kind of exposure and it still bombed in America? It should tell you something.

[Bluebrock]

A while back, Barbra put out a cd entitled RELEASE ME, which contained unreleased material from her entire career. It was a great collection. I think her version of HOME was from this project. It would be nice to hear some more.
I suspect that is what she was referring to when she said she was revisiting canned material in the vault Reese.

[Ollie9]

But you cannot just disregard the USA, the largest market for popular music. Diana Ross even performed "Chain Reaction" and "Eaten Alive" on The American Music Awards, which is nationally televised and still both records bombed. Same thing happened a few years later when she was promoting her "Take Me Higher" album during the half time show of the Super Bowl. The album and all singles flopped in the U.S. The Super Bowl as a platform and they still did not sell? OMG!

Wasn't her hour long, network television special "Red Hot Rhythm & Blues" used as a vehicle to promote her then current album? With that kind of exposure and it still bombed in America? It should tell you something.

But what should it tell one??. The RHRAB network special did rather well i believe. The fact that she able to star in her own network tv special in 87 is testament to her enduring popularity...... Hits or no hits
If America were not biting it most certainly was not a reflection on the quality of music. Chain Reaction is one of the most commercial songs of her career and the TMH set is a solid, classy album that still sounds fresh today
Perhaps to American eyes Diana was old school. Loyalty to veteran artists is not something their known for. More fool them i say.

[florence]

Nobody's disregarding the US - lots of records don't make it there, its just a matter of different tastes - it doesn't make their opinion right or wrong.

Any record such as Chain Reaction which was a global million seller in 1986 went Gold in the UK and was the fifth biggest selling single of the year and the biggest selling single of the year in Australia going Platinum with chart action in many other countries is a major success.

[RanRan79]

But you cannot just disregard the USA, the largest market for popular music. Diana Ross even performed "Chain Reaction" and "Eaten Alive" on The American Music Awards, which is nationally televised and still both records bombed. Same thing happened a few years later when she was promoting her "Take Me Higher" album during the half time show of the Super Bowl. The album and all singles flopped in the U.S. The Super Bowl as a platform and they still did not sell? OMG!

Wasn't her hour long, network television special "Red Hot Rhythm & Blues" used as a vehicle to promote her then current album? With that kind of exposure and it still bombed in America? It should tell you something.

What it tells me is that in the case of RHRAB, the album and it's singles weren't interesting enough to the public to warrant them running out and making purchases. And by the time "Take Me Higher" was out there, the public was rarely giving any attention to old school singers. Diana and her peers were respected legends but considered of the past in favor of a new crop of acts. I'm not sure what else these things are supposed to say.

[PeaceNHarmony]

Holy hooligan bajayzuz - Ross can sing some. What a gorgeous record.

[midnightman]

The industry's habit of catering to the young started in the 70s. By the time 1986 rolled around, MANY older artists were just not "in" anymore. Some managed to survive the changing trends, most didn't. But technically Diana still had young fans, they were just mostly gay. Same with a lot of the divas from Tina, Patti, Cher on down.

[TheMotownManiac]

What it tells me is that in the case of RHRAB, the album and it's singles weren't interesting enough to the public to warrant them running out and making purchases. And by the time "Take Me Higher" was out there, the public was rarely giving any attention to old school singers. Diana and her peers were respected legends but considered of the past in favor of a new crop of acts. I'm not sure what else these things are supposed to say.

RHRB was a dreary affair with dreadful singles. I can enjoy a few tracks enough to play occasionally, but, the commercial outlook for this mess was zilch.

I ‘I do not blame Ross or the new Supremes decline on bad advice as they didn’t have to take the bad advice. They made crap decisions in various ways and paid the price. Ross’ vision was pretty weak as far as her music went, and the New Supremes had no musical, visual or production vision with each new show one step closer to oblivion. Ross, luckily by the 80s, had established herself worldwide as a superstar and played arenas constantly while putting out weak music. The Supremes never got established, never were embraced by a segment of the public large enough to sustain it and so when they started going on TV looking ridiculous and doing shows That had no real direction, they had no Safetynet and were really on a downward spiral within a year of Ross leaving the group that they never got out of - But it was never a question of their vocal talent. The last time I saw JML in Chicago, they were great in spots, but there was a lot of lackluster applause for songs like automatically sunshine, your wonderful sweet sweet love, Nathan Jones and Floy Joy plus they didn’t even do up the ladder. I remember Jean did such a great job on somewhere, and got good applause, but it was awkward to present a 15 year old ballad in the middle of all these fast paced songs that were really really speeded up…… they should have been more current...Their show was a mess, they didn’t have a command over the audience….Jean was kind of weak, Lynda was the best talking to the audience, Mary acted silly and over exuberant...but damn their harmony was incredible and on good hair nights, they were a breathtakingly beautiful sight to behold.

‘’Ross took her own advice, and in many ways, so did the girls and both paid for it.

[sup_fan]

But you cannot just disregard the USA, the largest market for popular music. Diana Ross even performed "Chain Reaction" and "Eaten Alive" on The American Music Awards, which is nationally televised and still both records bombed. Same thing happened a few years later when she was promoting her "Take Me Higher" album during the half time show of the Super Bowl. The album and all singles flopped in the U.S. The Super Bowl as a platform and they still did not sell? OMG!

Wasn't her hour long, network television special "Red Hot Rhythm & Blues" used as a vehicle to promote her then current album? With that kind of exposure and it still bombed in America? It should tell you something.

sure you can disregard the US market. Mary certainly has. she had limited [[at best) track record here but has certainly commanded larger audiences and all in Europe and elsewhere. She even acknowledges this in Sup Faith. the american audience is notoriously fickle and therefore she spent much of her solo time playing theaters overseas. same with the 70s supremes. once the shine on the 70s grouping began to fade, they would tour more overseas because 1) they records were charting higher over there and 2) they could generate more concert revenue. in the US they were sometimes playing to half-sold houses

[sup_fan]

RHRB was a dreary affair with dreadful singles. I can enjoy a few tracks enough to play occasionally, but, the commercial outlook for this mess was zilch.

I ‘I do not blame Ross or the new Supremes decline on bad advice as they didn’t have to take the bad advice. They made crap decisions in various ways and paid the price. Ross’ vision was pretty weak as far as her music went, and the New Supremes had no musical, visual or production vision with each new show one step closer to oblivion. Ross, luckily by the 80s, had established herself worldwide as a superstar and played arenas constantly while putting out weak music. The Supremes never got established, never were embraced by a segment of the public large enough to sustain it and so when they started going on TV looking ridiculous and doing shows That had no real direction, they had no Safetynet and were really on a downward spiral within a year of Ross leaving the group that they never got out of - But it was never a question of their vocal talent. The last time I saw JML in Chicago, they were great in spots, but there was a lot of lackluster applause for songs like automatically sunshine, your wonderful sweet sweet love, Nathan Jones and Floy Joy plus they didn’t even do up the ladder. I remember Jean did such a great job on somewhere, and got good applause, but it was awkward to present a 15 year old ballad in the middle of all these fast paced songs that were really really speeded up…… they should have been more current...Their show was a mess, they didn’t have a command over the audience….Jean was kind of weak, Lynda was the best talking to the audience, Mary acted silly and over exuberant...but damn their harmony was incredible and on good hair nights, they were a breathtakingly beautiful sight to behold.

‘’Ross took her own advice, and in many ways, so did the girls and both paid for it.

very spot-on assessment of the 70s sups. at first in 1970, there was an excitement with the return to the name Sups, diana's exit/farewell hoopla, the new group sound, the vision with their songs and lyrics being focused on peace, love and an higher vision of mankind

but then they thwarted all that by 1) the duets and 2) screwing up the branding of New Ways. the girly pink font and nonsense photos killed the packaging.

then the group didn't evolve. their shows remained too "cabaret." Mary was too giggly and silly. Jean i think was losing her confidence and also just getting weary of touring. the image was becoming outdated and too plastic. they had a chance to really do something new and different but threw it away

then when scherrie joined it was unfortunately an ill-advised platform for mary's solo aspirations. big ballgown style outfits, the same old tired shows. and when susaye joined, they didn't bother to update the image more by now having two writer/producers as members. susaye mostly had spot light solos doing He Ain't heavy and people which were leftover musical charts from the Jean era.

[jobeterob]

Very good analysis; because in 1970, the Supremes looked reinvigorated but it slipped as soon as New Ways came out.

If I managed Mary, I would tell her to drop the giggling, drop the interruptions and to be a little more thoughtful in her answers. It is still an issue to this day. It might be that she is always nervous.

[sup_fan]

to me, Mary now tries to come across as too "soulful" and it just appears forced. she's always dropping "honey" and similar into her answers and interviews. and today she too is constantly trying to joke and laugh about things. she often doesn't come across as serious or in command of the topic.

I don't have a problem which someone having this type of persona or style of speech. it's wonderfully informal and inviting. but IMO it just doesn't seem like mary's persona.

[midnightman]

But you cannot just disregard the USA, the largest market for popular music. Diana Ross even performed "Chain Reaction" and "Eaten Alive" on The American Music Awards, which is nationally televised and still both records bombed. Same thing happened a few years later when she was promoting her "Take Me Higher" album during the half time show of the Super Bowl. The album and all singles flopped in the U.S. The Super Bowl as a platform and they still did not sell? OMG!

Wasn't her hour long, network television special "Red Hot Rhythm & Blues" used as a vehicle to promote her then current album? With that kind of exposure and it still bombed in America? It should tell you something.

Tina Turner didn't worry about the States after Foreign Affair though. Why should have Diana, who had 20 years of mainstream pop success, mind you, worry? The reason her RCA albums bombed after 1984 is because the label wasn't behind her and Diana felt neglected. The same reason why after nearly a decade of huge success, Donna Summer fell flat at around the same time. It wasn't just Diana whose fortunes in her recording career suddenly went cold. The reason why Tina, Cher, Barbra and Patti were able to get by is because their labels were smarter in marketing them for a time. RCA and Geffen, least in Donna's situation, didn't help their divas.

[midnightman]

Very good analysis; because in 1970, the Supremes looked reinvigorated but it slipped as soon as New Ways came out.

If I managed Mary, I would tell her to drop the giggling, drop the interruptions and to be a little more thoughtful in her answers. It is still an issue to this day. It might be that she is always nervous.

If you check Mary's interviews in the 60s, she seemed regal and sophisticated. That may be why the black community considered the Supremes "sellouts" because they weren't considered "earthy" in the era of Aretha Franklin.

It could explain why it looked like MW overdid the sassiness. It didn't come out as naturally as Flo or even Diana, who was more streetwise than she let on despite the fact her family was middle class [[as was Mary's family; Flo's family were the ones living in poverty).

Mary is also more sophisticated in her music than she let's on too. She could easily do torch albums and jazz records. That's where her heart is. Unfortunately, Motown never helped her develop that sound from her.

[kenneth]

to me, Mary now tries to come across as too "soulful" and it just appears forced. she's always dropping "honey" and similar into her answers and interviews. and today she too is constantly trying to joke and laugh about things. she often doesn't come across as serious or in command of the topic.

Although I must say, I love on the "Live in Japan" album when Mary spots Dionne Warwick in the audience and she calls out to her "Konnichiwa Honey!"

I guess "konnichiwa" means "hello" or "greetings," but I had to look up how to spell it.

I should add something as well, although I think I've related this story on this forum before. When I saw Mary at an outdoor concert in the Los Angeles area, the lights weren't working right and Mary was joking about it as it became darker outside. At one point she said, "What will we do if the lights go out? I guess we'll have to smile a lot!" I mean, I think the lady is funny!

[midnightman]

^ Now that IS funny lol

[RanRan79]

Tina Turner didn't worry about the States after Foreign Affair though. Why should have Diana, who had 20 years of mainstream pop success, mind you, worry? The reason her RCA albums bombed after 1984 is because the label wasn't behind her and Diana felt neglected. The same reason why after nearly a decade of huge success, Donna Summer fell flat at around the same time. It wasn't just Diana whose fortunes in her recording career suddenly went cold. The reason why Tina, Cher, Barbra and Patti were able to get by is because their labels were smarter in marketing them for a time. RCA and Geffen, least in Donna's situation, didn't help their divas.

Only Diana's detractors believe that Diana's fall from hit making popularity was due to something other than nature taking it's course or the fact that the music was subpar. I will say I only disagree with you on RCA neglecting Diana. I think she put them in a horrible position, although I guess one could successfully argue that they allowed themselves to be put in the horrible position, by allowing Diana full creative freedom. She was in charge of her career. RCA held her to her contracted obligations, but apparently quality wasn't in the contract. I have to wonder what kind of success might she have had if she had allowed RCA to step in and take the reins.

[marv2]

Only Diana's detractors believe that Diana's fall from hit making popularity was due to something other than nature taking it's course or the fact that the music was subpar. I will say I only disagree with you on RCA neglecting Diana. I think she put them in a horrible position, although I guess one could successfully argue that they allowed themselves to be put in the horrible position, by allowing Diana full creative freedom. She was in charge of her career. RCA held her to her contracted obligations, but apparently quality wasn't in the contract. I have to wonder what kind of success might she have had if she had allowed RCA to step in and take the reins.

I don't know, but I do know that Whitney Houston's debut album "Whitney" released in 1985 sold more copies [[25 million) than ALL of Diana Ross' solo albums combined [[16.5 million in the U.S. for a total of 20 million when you include Worldwide sales).

Whitney would go on to sell a total of 128,600,000 albums over her career:

http://www.classicwhitney.com/info/stats.html

Compared to Ross' 20 million albums sold.

[vgalindo]

I don't know, but I do know that Whitney Houston's debut album "Whitney" released in 1985 sold more copies [[25 million) than ALL of Diana Ross' solo albums combined [[16.5 million in the U.S. for a total of 20 million when you include Worldwide sales).

Whitney would go on to sell a total of 128,600,000 albums over her career:

http://www.classicwhitney.com/info/stats.html

Compared to Ross' 20 million albums sold.
And what does Whitney Houston’s sales have to do with Diana Ross? Why don’t we compare Diana Ross with Mary Wilson? Diana Ross’ biggest flop album sold more than all Mary Wilson’s records combined. How many records has Mary actually sold? Less than 5,000 copies. Diana Ross’ lowest selling albums have sold at least over 100,000 copies each . So again what’s your point?

[midnightman]

Only Diana's detractors believe that Diana's fall from hit making popularity was due to something other than nature taking it's course or the fact that the music was subpar. I will say I only disagree with you on RCA neglecting Diana. I think she put them in a horrible position, although I guess one could successfully argue that they allowed themselves to be put in the horrible position, by allowing Diana full creative freedom. She was in charge of her career. RCA held her to her contracted obligations, but apparently quality wasn't in the contract. I have to wonder what kind of success might she have had if she had allowed RCA to step in and take the reins.

I always forget the RCA period was when she took charge lol

[midnightman]

I don't know, but I do know that Whitney Houston's debut album "Whitney" released in 1985 sold more copies [[25 million) than ALL of Diana Ross' solo albums combined [[16.5 million in the U.S. for a total of 20 million when you include Worldwide sales).

Whitney would go on to sell a total of 128,600,000 albums over her career:

http://www.classicwhitney.com/info/stats.html

Compared to Ross' 20 million albums sold.

Comparing Whitney to Diana is like comparing Janet to Donna Summer. Divas from different generations.

I wish you stop doing that lol

[PeaceNHarmony]

And what does Whitney Houston’s sales have to do with Diana Ross? Why don’t we compare Diana Ross with Mary Wilson? Diana Ross’ biggest flop album sold more than all Mary Wilson’s records combined. How many records has Mary actually sold? Less than 5,000 copies. Diana Ross’ lowest selling albums have sold at least over 100,000 copies each . So again what’s your point?He he he's point, as always, is to try to denigrate Diana! Now that his favorite's 1.5 minutes of fame are up [[HEE HEE HEE!) #laughingstock is back to his/their old tricks.

[marv2]

Comparing Whitney to Diana is like comparing Janet to Donna Summer. Divas from different generations.

I wish you stop doing that lol

They were both recording and performing at the same time. Diane is still performing. When I hear a good record, I don't immediately ask myself "I wonder how old this person is?".

[jobeterob]

Wow - amazing traction on a thread about a song that wasn’t a big hit

[sup_fan]

^ well jobete needless to say the dialog has shifted to a range of topics. I think the actual discussion of the song OMC stopped on page 2 lolol

[sup_fan]

I don't know, but I do know that Whitney Houston's debut album "Whitney" released in 1985 sold more copies [[25 million) than ALL of Diana Ross' solo albums combined [[16.5 million in the U.S. for a total of 20 million when you include Worldwide sales).

Whitney would go on to sell a total of 128,600,000 albums over her career:

http://www.classicwhitney.com/info/stats.html

Compared to Ross' 20 million albums sold.

it's hard to compare total records sold. the industry changed drastically over the decades. That's like trying to say a group like Little Mix [[a current pop girl group band from UK) is more successful than the Supremes. apparently Little has sold over 50 million while the sups are around 20.

now i certainly don't disagree that Whitney was much more influential and successful in the 80s and 90s than Diana was. no disagreement. music tastes had changed and whitney was certainly blessed with an amazing voice. plus she had impeccable management and production during this time. a perfect combo

But buying power of the youth is a major factor we have to consider. in the 50s and 60s kids did NOT have the discretionary cash that they do today. it was a big deal to spend money on an LP. you really had to want it. by the 80s and 90s, kids were able to buy up practically as much music as they wanted. total record sales for the industry exploded as the middle class in the US gained much more spending power and wealth. so total sales of albums and singles grew with it.

also look at the crazy charting of singles in the 90s. suddenly so many songs were staying at #1 for 9, 10, 14 weeks. that was unheard of in the 60s. even most of the #1s by the Beatles only topped the chart for a couple weeks

[RanRan79]

Marv you'll never be able to reduce Diana Ross to nothing. She's one of the most successful female singers of all time. A global, cultural and fashion icon. She possesses one of the most recognizable voices ever. If she never sells another album or song, she'll still be in the record books and in the histories of music, America, and Black America. You can't do anything about that no matter how hard you try.:p

[jobeterob]

Doesn't Rhianna now have the most #1 Records? And if so, who the hell cares?

[sup_fan]

^according to Wikipedia she's sold over 250M records worldwide and had 14 #1 pop hits

Beatles still are #1 with 20 #1
Elvis and Mariah are tied with 18 [[and diana would be here if you counted the Sups)
Rihanna 14
Michael J 13
Supremes and Madonna 12
Whitney 11
Stevie Wonder and Janet Jackson 10

[florence]

1993 Guinness Book Of World Records:

Diana Ross named "Most Successful Female Singer of All Time"

[thommg]

now i certainly don't disagree that Whitney was much more influential and successful in the 80s and 90s than Diana was. no disagreement. music tastes had changed and whitney was certainly blessed with an amazing voice. plus she had impeccable management and production during this time. a perfect combo

I think your last sentence sums it all up - management & production. Diana didn't have the management. I feel that was true since the moment she left Motown. She was guiding herself but she needed someone who saw a bigger picture. She wanted to expand herself but needed someone who could keep their eye on the ball so it kept rolling at the same time. A star of Diana's magnitude needed to have someone to "make it happen" while taking into consideration the artists wants & needs.

[midnightman]

They were both recording and performing at the same time. Diane is still performing. When I hear a good record, I don't immediately ask myself "I wonder how old this person is?".

And the public doesn't?

Because ALL the kids were all playing the new hits from Gladys and Aretha and Streisand by 89 lol

Age definitely had a lot to do with it as much as bad career decisions. They both played contributing factors. The only "oldies" that were hanging around by the end of the 80s were Tina, Cher and, on the R&B side, Patti.

Also we forget that this is America, where attitudes on older performers were way more fickle than overseas. So that was another factor.