Mary still hoping to have a supremes movie made based on her book

[milven]

Mary says that the problem is that it kind of already has been made in the form of DREAMGIRLS. But Mary was not pleased with that project because she never received royalties or had direct input.

The original Broadway production was not the Supremes' story. Too bad it did not have a LAW AND ORDER type of disclaimer

“The following story is fictional and does not depict any actual person or event.”

Despite these definitive words, as anyone who has ever marathoned LAW & ORDER knows, many of said stories take direct inspiration from recent headlines. As a LAW & ORDER fan, I have seen many episodes that reminded me of incidents that happened to celebrities like Michael Jackson, Bill Cosby etc.

The DREAMGIRLS Broadway Play was probably inspired by the Supremes. But the DREAMGIRLS movie totally ripped off the Supremes by copying their album covers and gowns, making it impossible to not think that it is the story was of the Supremes. But it wasn't

I would love to see either a Broadway musical or a movie about the group with their songs intact. It seems that Mary still has that dream and would like to have a movie made about the group. So would I.

https://www.smoothradio.com/news/music/mary-wilson-interview-dreamgirls-supremes-movie/

[bradsupremes]

The problem with the film version of Dreamgirls is that it blurred the lines way too much. By changing the storyline and using the likeness of the Supremes, their albums, costumes, etc. they made it difficult for the public to distinguish what was real and what wasn't. I had friends who saw it and said "Wow, that was the Supremes story?" I can see why Mary would be upset for not being compensated with the usage of her likeness.

The play was very careful in not blurring those lines. It's been said by cast members and crew from the original production that it was the Supremes story, but were informed to tell the public it wasn't because the creative team and producers were afraid of being sued. Sheryl Lee Ralph recalls when she initially met Diana and how cold and rude Diana was to her. Mary recalls how either Tom Eyen or Michael Bennett brushed her off after a performance most likely out of fear what her reaction would be.

Dreamgirls ruined any chance of a Supremes film. Even if the musical had not been made, there wouldn't much a chance for a film because Gordy has grand rights and there's no way he would ever approve a film that told how he mistreated Florence Ballard.

A Supremes film is not needed. I would much prefer a documentary that was truthful and told all sides rather than one.

[marv2]

I hope someday there is a feature film made about the Supremes based on Mary Wilson's book, "Dreamgirl, My Life As A Supreme". That is what Mary wants and I would go to see it.

[Roberta75]

I hope someday there is a feature film made about the Supremes based on Mary Wilson's book, "Dreamgirl, My Life As A Supreme". That is what Mary wants and I would go to see it.



I know it seems to be real difficult for you getting to see mary at Cafe Carlile or NYCB in Westbury or brooklyn or Pennselvania but this ones also in your back yard and youd get a photo with Mary, and a nice catch-up. Its been a real long time since youve seen Mary, probably a decade or more so im hope you and Luke can make it.

[midnightman]

I remembered when this film first came out, she was all supportive of it. Now she reveals she, Diana, Flo's estate and Cindy didn't get consulted?

Also, Motown owns the masters to the music and the film would have to be agreed by ALL parties: Diana, Florence's daughters, Cindy and Gordy.

Until that happens, it won't happen. And that's real.

[PeaceNHarmony]

O. M. G. Let it go, gurrlll ...

[RanRan79]

Yeah, Dreamgirls the movie pretty much messed up any chance of a Supremes movie. But my opinion is the same as Brad's. I'd rather have an impartial, truthful documentary made than a dramatized film. I have a feeling even the doc would have no chance unless Berry Gordy has passed away. I think Diana would be more receptive to it than he would, believe it or not.

[marv2]

I have to disagree with the comments that the film "Dreamgirls" has destroyed any chances of a film about the Supremes ever being made. The public does not have very long memories and I have seen tons of movies made about the same subject. For example how many Superman, Spiderman, and other comic characters have been made? How many historical films have be made about the same subject such as Mary Queen of Scots/Elizabeth I, Elvis Presley, etc, etc. Those are a just a few I can think of before having my coffee. LOL!

[bradsupremes]

Yeah, Dreamgirls the movie pretty much messed up any chance of a Supremes movie. But my opinion is the same as Brad's. I'd rather have an impartial, truthful documentary made than a dramatized film. I have a feeling even the doc would have no chance unless Berry Gordy has passed away. I think Diana would be more receptive to it than he would, believe it or not.

Gordy and Ross are the roadblocks to a Supremes documentary. The topic of Flo and her dismissal is something they want to shy away from because 1.) fear of them being made into villains 2.) Neither want to take responsibility in how they treated her and the whole situation especially Gordy.

I do think there is a way to do a documentary where no one comes away looking like a villain, but the truth hurts and Gordy would have to get stung.

I loved Dreamgirls when it was released back in 2006, but I recently revisited it and I'm way more critical of it than I used to be. The blurring of lines into the Supremes' image should have never been done as well as changing many aspects of the story such as relocating from Chicago to Detroit, a Motown-like record label, etc. I wish they kept it true to the original stage production. I also think there was a lot of miscasting especially Beyonce. I would love to see a live TV production that's closer to the stage production.

[bradsupremes]

I have to disagree with the comments that the film "Dreamgirls" has destroyed any chances of a film about the Supremes ever being made. The public does not have very long memories and I have seen tons of movies made about the same subject. For example how many Superman, Spiderman, and other comic characters have been made? How many historical films have be made about the same subject such as Mary Queen of Scots/Elizabeth I, Elvis Presley, etc, etc. Those are a just a few I can think of before having my coffee. LOL!

The differences is that Superman, Spiderman, etc. are part of franchises that have a far bigger following/fan base. There is a demand for those kinds of films and they are profitable especially now where the superhero/action films are box office gold. Most historical biopics tend to focus on a segment of a person's career/life rather than their entire life. I'm not saying a Supremes biopic can't be done, but you are cramming a lot into a 2 hour film and what would the quality of the film be? You know a film studio would take artistic liberties with their story. Would you want that and have Mary or Flo be remembered for something they didn't say or do especially if it's something negative? I think you're also forgetting Gordy would never sign off on this. No approval from Gordy, no music. And you can't tell the Supremes' story without the music.

A documentary is a far better route and option and has a far better chance of happening. A biopic has as much to coming to fruition as a Supremes reunion tour. It's not going to happen.

[PeaceNHarmony]

A non-fiction book about the Supremes could be good.

[marv2]

The differences is that Superman, Spiderman, etc. are part of franchises that have a far bigger following/fan base. There is a demand for those kinds of films and they are profitable especially now where the superhero/action films are box office gold. Most historical biopics tend to focus on a segment of a person's career/life rather than their entire life. I'm not saying a Supremes biopic can't be done, but you are cramming a lot into a 2 hour film and what would the quality of the film be? You know a film studio would take artistic liberties with their story. Would you want that and have Mary or Flo be remembered for something they didn't say or do especially if it's something negative? I think you're also forgetting Gordy would never sign off on this. No approval from Gordy, no music. And you can't tell the Supremes' story without the music.

A documentary is a far better route and option and has a far better chance of happening. A biopic has as much to coming to fruition as a Supremes reunion tour. It's not going to happen.

They just did one on Freddy Mercury and Queen, so I can't buy that either. The Supremes were much bigger overall.

[marv2]

A non-fiction book about the Supremes could be good.

Sour grapes huh?

[sup_fan]

Gordy and Ross are the roadblocks to a Supremes documentary. The topic of Flo and her dismissal is something they want to shy away from because 1.) fear of them being made into villains 2.) Neither want to take responsibility in how they treated her and the whole situation especially Gordy.

I do think there is a way to do a documentary where no one comes away looking like a villain, but the truth hurts and Gordy would have to get stung.

I loved Dreamgirls when it was released back in 2006, but I recently revisited it and I'm way more critical of it than I used to be. The blurring of lines into the Supremes' image should have never been done as well as changing many aspects of the story such as relocating from Chicago to Detroit, a Motown-like record label, etc. I wish they kept it true to the original stage production. I also think there was a lot of miscasting especially Beyonce. I would love to see a live TV production that's closer to the stage production.

my understanding is that Beyonce insisted the role be made "nicer." there was still plenty of residual public snarking about the many personnel changes in DC and her role in the group. but by watering down the Deena role, she effectively made it useless with little depth or interest. and her questionable acting skills did nothing to elevate the performance.

[marv2]

The mini-series on the Temptations and the Jacksons were/are very popular. I believe a film on the Supremes would be as well.

[marv2]

my understanding is that Beyonce insisted the role be made "nicer." there was still plenty of residual public snarking about the many personnel changes in DC and her role in the group. but by watering down the Deena role, she effectively made it useless with little depth or interest. and her questionable acting skills did nothing to elevate the performance.

I agree. This fact alone makes it clear that "Dreamgirls" was NOT about The Supremes.

[jobeterob]

I remembered when this film first came out, she was all supportive of it. Now she reveals she, Diana, Flo's estate and Cindy didn't get consulted?

Also, Motown owns the masters to the music and the film would have to be agreed by ALL parties: Diana, Florence's daughters, Cindy and Gordy.

Until that happens, it won't happen. And that's real.

The only consent they need is from the owner of the music but Berry retained some kind of veto. I suspect his estate will have the same veto power and it will likely extend for his life and the lives of all his children at least.

[MotownFan615]

my understanding is that Beyonce insisted the role be made "nicer." there was still plenty of residual public snarking about the many personnel changes in DC and her role in the group. but by watering down the Deena role, she effectively made it useless with little depth or interest. and her questionable acting skills did nothing to elevate the performance.

In the original production, Deena wasn't really the villian, but the story was slanted so sympathies went with Effie. As much as they changed a lot in the show, the many similarities were enough for people to think it was about the Supremes. I saw the original production, and remember specifically, at intermission [[after Effie's big "I'm Telling You" number), a woman behind me said to her friends, "I didn't know Florence Ballard was in love with Berry Gordy!" So I'm sure many bought Dreamgirls as the Supremes story.

[marybrewster]

Motown rode the cash cow when the play "Dreamgirls" first hit the stage. This was when Smokey was still VP. I have a Motown poster comparing the play to the Supremes.

Years later, Smokey would denounce the film, saying it ripped off the legacy of Motown.

Sorry, you can't have it both ways.

[sup_fan]

i can't see this happening any time soon. with Diana and Berry still alive and in good health, they'll never allow any likeness or representation on screen without a fight. There have been too many rumors, myths and gossip about what happened. plus the different points of view by the people that were there.

Diana has never been a sentimental person. so i'm sure she was 0 interest in doing this or allowing it to happen. especially since she will be viewed in a negative light.

[khansperac]

The play and the movie were very different. As previously mentioned, the movie had mocks of their album covers, references to the Sullivan show, changed the location to Detroit, etc. So Smokey had every right to speak up.

[khansperac]

I’m not sure she has zero interest. Around the late 90’s early 2000’s she was in talks to produce a movie/ mini series about the Supremes. Many hope that she is portrayed as the villain but if produced correctly the blame can be spread to all three ladies regarding things that went on. But I’m sure Mary Wilson and Florence Ballard fans would not be happy with that.

[PeaceNHarmony]

I’m not sure she has zero interest. Around the late 90’s early 2000’s she was in talks to produce a movie/ mini series about the Supremes. Many hope that she is portrayed as the villain but if produced correctly the blame can be spread to all three ladies regarding things that went on. But I’m sure Mary Wilson and Florence Ballard fans would not be happy with that.Yea. There's that. I can add that it's the only interest Wilson and Flo fans have in a movie.

[sup_fan]

I’m not sure she has zero interest. Around the late 90’s early 2000’s she was in talks to produce a movie/ mini series about the Supremes. Many hope that she is portrayed as the villain but if produced correctly the blame can be spread to all three ladies regarding things that went on. But I’m sure Mary Wilson and Florence Ballard fans would not be happy with that.

in one of Randy's books he talks about this. the story goes [[i think) that Cindy had come to her in need of money and rather than just hand her a check, Diana procrastinated long enough on a mini-series Suzanne dePasse was trying to launch. Cindy had already agreed to the project and had received a sum of money for it [[non-refundable). then Diana turned down the project and it died. the idea being that she never intended to do it or participate in it but lead it along long enough for Cindy to get some money from it.

no mention was made of if Mary was involved or received any money from it

[marv2]

In the original production, Deena wasn't really the villian, but the story was slanted so sympathies went with Effie. As much as they changed a lot in the show, the many similarities were enough for people to think it was about the Supremes. I saw the original production, and remember specifically, at intermission [[after Effie's big "I'm Telling You" number), a woman behind me said to her friends, "I didn't know Florence Ballard was in love with Berry Gordy!" So I'm sure many bought Dreamgirls as the Supremes story.

In the original premise for the play and while it was still in workshop, the character "Effie" dies at the end of Act I. Jennifer Holliday raised Hell over it [[not due to anything to do with Florence Ballard) because she wanted more stage time than just one Act. The director, Michael Bennett wrote the changes in with the thought that it would be further comparisons to the Supremes story.

[marv2]

Motown rode the cash cow when the play "Dreamgirls" first hit the stage. This was when Smokey was still VP. I have a Motown poster comparing the play to the Supremes.

Years later, Smokey would denounce the film, saying it ripped off the legacy of Motown.

Sorry, you can't have it both ways.

He only did that to protect the reputation of his friend Berry Gordy Jr. Jamie Foxx's character, "Curtis Taylor, Jr." was portrayed as a mean, conniving son of a bitch! Smokey could not have people believing that that was how Berry Gordy Jr was.........

[marv2]

i can't see this happening any time soon. with Diana and Berry still alive and in good health, they'll never allow any likeness or representation on screen without a fight. There have been too many rumors, myths and gossip about what happened. plus the different points of view by the people that were there.

Diana has never been a sentimental person. so i'm sure she was 0 interest in doing this or allowing it to happen. especially since she will be viewed in a negative light.

Now why would she be viewed in a negative light if they only told the truth?

[Roberta75]

Now why would she be viewed in a negative light if they only told the truth?

Well your "truth" about Diana Ross is 100% negative but we all know what you spread about Diane everyday, its not real honest and would fail every fact check there is.

[jobeterob]

Well your "truth" about Diana Ross is 100% negative but we all know what you spread about Diane everyday, its not real honest and would fail every fact check there is.

The truth is that most of the Supremes don’t like Mary Wilson

[PeaceNHarmony]

The truth is that most of the Supremes donÂ’t like Mary WilsonNot to mention most of ... well, I'll stop there. Wonder if the Mary-loonies realize the damage they do to to her? But I've always said: the most hysterical Wilson 'fans' don't GAF about her. They just want to insult other Supremes. And they always [[ALWAYS! Look at the sales of tickets at the Apollo ...) lose.

[jobeterob]

Those few fans have had a hand in ensuring there will never be a real reunion either

[captainjames]

I don't want to sound disrespectful but what I do remember is that everyone wants to paint Gordy and Ross as the villians surrounding Ballard. How is it that a whole corporation of artists and family and friends did not stand with her ? How is it that not one singer did not side with her and help her ? How did they let her walk away and never reach out to get her back on here feet ? Everyone watched but no one did anything.

[PeaceNHarmony]

I don't want to sound disrespectful but what I do remember is that everyone wants to paint Gordy and Ross as the villians surrounding Ballard. How is it that a whole corporation of artists and family and friends did not stand with her ? How is it that not one singer did not side with her and help her ? How did they let her walk away and never reach out to get her back on here feet ? Everyone watched but no one did anything.Not disrespectful and exactly right. Everyone looked the other way until Florence was gone, then pointed fingers to hide their own culpability and inaction. And sadly continues to this day. Vultures.

[TheMotownManiac]

Not disrespectful and exactly right. Everyone looked the other way until Florence was gone, then pointed fingers to hide their own culpability and inaction. And sadly continues to this day. Vultures.

its true that everyone acted in their own best interest or dis-interest. I don’t think anyone is to “blame” per se’ and am tired of the finger pointing. Gordy had his interests to protect as did Diana and Mary. It’s just that Mary had to create this fable of abuse and treachery. Let’s face it, Flo Ballard is not the first Person in show business to succumb to substance-abuse…… If this was some sort of rare occurrence then we could look at other variables and maybe point some fingers with a little more authority. Gordy had a history making and moneymaking super group and a burgeoning empire to deal with and he felt getting rid of Florence was the best thing to do, so he did. He may have been a fucker, I don’t know seems like he was…… But we all know that there was a lot of concern about how the public would react to Flos Ouster but we know now that there wasn’t much to worry about. Mary has stated that she went along with the program because she was afraid she would get kicked out of the group, but I call bullshit on that because she knew that they were scared to death to get rid of one member of the group they certainly were not going to have to get rid of two there’s no way that they would’ve replaced Mary unless they had no other choice and she knew that. However, she did admit that she sided with Diana and Barry at that meeting in Outer Drive. And Mary is not to blame at all, yet she still felt the need to justify her non-action and point. Mary could have insisted that flow be given 3 to 6 months off to get herself together. I wish that’s what she and Diana had said to Barry Gordy and then hired Cindy are used Marlene and whoever to fill in the gap‘s Until Flo was OK. Maybe use Florence for some TV shows…… They really didn’t do that much that summer and fall. It could have been arranged. At that time if Florence did not get it together, then bring in Cindy and you’ve known that you’ve done everything you could and have made the correct decision.

I’ve always felt that if the shoe had been on the other foot and mary was the one with the drinking problem and getting kicked out of the group that Florence would not have gone along with the program and fought tooth and nail to prevent that. There’s no way She would’ve accepted Mary’s Ouster unless it was absolutely absolutely absolutely necessary.

[captainjames]

its true that everyone acted in their own best interest or dis-interest. I don’t think anyone is to “blame” per se’ and am tired of the finger pointing. Gordy had his interests to protect as did Diana and Mary. It’s just that Mary had to create this fable of abuse and treachery. Let’s face it, Flo Ballard is not the first Person in show business to succumb to substance-abuse…… If this was some sort of rare occurrence then we could look at other variables and maybe point some fingers with a little more authority. Gordy had a history making and moneymaking super group and a burgeoning empire to deal with and he felt getting rid of Florence was the best thing to do, so he did. He may have been a fucker, I don’t know seems like he was…… But we all know that there was a lot of concern about how the public would react to Flos Ouster but we know now that there wasn’t much to worry about. Mary has stated that she went along with the program because she was afraid she would get kicked out of the group, but I call bullshit on that because she knew that they were scared to death to get rid of one member of the group they certainly were not going to have to get rid of two there’s no way that they would’ve replaced Mary unless they had no other choice and she knew that. However, she did admit that she sided with Diana and Barry at that meeting in Outer Drive. And Mary is not to blame at all, yet she still felt the need to justify her non-action and point. Mary could have insisted that flow be given 3 to 6 months off to get herself together. I wish that’s what she and Diana had said to Barry Gordy and then hired Cindy are used Marlene and whoever to fill in the gap‘s Until Flo was OK. Maybe use Florence for some TV shows…… They really didn’t do that much that summer and fall. It could have been arranged. At that time if Florence did not get it together, then bring in Cindy and you’ve known that you’ve done everything you could and have made the correct decision.

I’ve always felt that if the shoe had been on the other foot and mary was the one with the drinking problem and getting kicked out of the group that Florence would not have gone along with the program and fought tooth and nail to prevent that. There’s no way She would’ve accepted Mary’s Ouster unless it was absolutely absolutely absolutely necessary.

This I believe as well and not to keep beating on the same horse but Berry Gordy was a businessman but perhaps not a very kind one and what he did to Florence, he did to Mary and eventually to Diana. He promised the girls he would always take care of them but he really didn't, he made sure he took care of the business and himself. However, together with their hard work and talent he made them a household word. If Flo was alive today she would probably still say BG was an A hole but I bet you she would still say Mary and Diana were her sisters. I still cannot understand why all the producers, singers, writers and staff at Motown why no one stepped to Gordy and said this is not right even after she left. If I remember correctly BG's sister supposedly told Flo that he couldn't do that but I have no proof she actually told her that. However, if it was true why didn't she tell Berry that ?

[midnightman]

They just did one on Freddy Mercury and Queen, so I can't buy that either. The Supremes were much bigger overall.

Queen sold more albums and toured stadiums. I'm just saying... the Supremes' strength was singles. They sold albums and toured to sold out venues all over the world but by the '70s and '80s, things got bigger and by the time Queen had their breakthrough, the Supremes were DONE.

[midnightman]

Gordy and Ross are the roadblocks to a Supremes documentary. The topic of Flo and her dismissal is something they want to shy away from because 1.) fear of them being made into villains 2.) Neither want to take responsibility in how they treated her and the whole situation especially Gordy.

I do think there is a way to do a documentary where no one comes away looking like a villain, but the truth hurts and Gordy would have to get stung.

I loved Dreamgirls when it was released back in 2006, but I recently revisited it and I'm way more critical of it than I used to be. The blurring of lines into the Supremes' image should have never been done as well as changing many aspects of the story such as relocating from Chicago to Detroit, a Motown-like record label, etc. I wish they kept it true to the original stage production. I also think there was a lot of miscasting especially Beyonce. I would love to see a live TV production that's closer to the stage production.

The push to make it Motown was intentional. That's why Smokey Robinson flipped out. And understandable. Martha Reeves also was pissed off about it.

[midnightman]

The only consent they need is from the owner of the music but Berry retained some kind of veto. I suspect his estate will have the same veto power and it will likely extend for his life and the lives of all his children at least.

Berry's veto power is why that Sexual Healing biopic ended up being put in the gutter despite the fact it didn't include Motown stuff. Berry's veto has POWER. He don't want ANY film trashing him or his artists.

[midnightman]

Not disrespectful and exactly right. Everyone looked the other way until Florence was gone, then pointed fingers to hide their own culpability and inaction. And sadly continues to this day. Vultures.

Most everyone in Motown turned on Flo. That includes, unfortunately, her Supremes partners. That was the saddest part of the Florence story. Fame and fortune ruled over loyalty.

[marv2]

Queen sold more albums and toured stadiums. I'm just saying... the Supremes' strength was singles. They sold albums and toured to sold out venues all over the world but by the '70s and '80s, things got bigger and by the time Queen had their breakthrough, the Supremes were DONE.

They no black fan base to speak of. The Supremes had black, white, yellow,brown everyone liked their music. I'm saying...... The Supremes were bigger culturally speaking than Queen.

[marv2]

Most everyone in Motown turned on Flo. That includes, unfortunately, her Supremes partners. That was the saddest part of the Florence story. Fame and fortune ruled over loyalty.

I totally disagree without getting into a long dissertation on it. The Temptations specifically sent a telegram to Mary imploring her to stick by Flo, because it could happen to her or any one of them! Once Flo was out of the Supremes and down on her luck, Eddie Kendricks visited her and gave her cash to help her out. That is just few of the stories that I know about that shows that not most everyone in Motown turned on Flo. Al Abrams even acted as her manager for a short time after she was out of Motown and pursuing solo engagements.

[marv2]

Berry's veto power is why that Sexual Healing biopic ended up being put in the gutter despite the fact it didn't include Motown stuff. Berry's veto has POWER. He don't want ANY film trashing him or his artists.

I hate to say this, I really, but you are giving Berry Gordy way too much power in your comments here. LOL!

[TheMotownManiac]

I totally disagree without getting into a long dissertation on it. The Temptations specifically sent a telegram to Mary imploring her to stick by Flo, because it could happen to her or any one of them! Once Flo was out of the Supremes and down on her luck, Eddie Kendricks visited her and gave her cash to help her out. That is just few of the stories that I know about that shows that not most everyone in Motown turned on Flo. Al Abrams even acted as her manager for a short time after she was out of Motown and pursuing solo engagements.

i think you’re missing the point. So what if The Temptations sent Mary a telegram? To show support for Florence they should’ve sent that telegram to Berry Gordy. And Mary didn’t take their advice anyway as she did not stick by Florence. It’s wonderful that people helped Florence out, but that’s not what we are discussing. We are discussing why those people didn’t help Florence Before she was fired…… Not after. I understand that with all the pressure of the girls were under, that just getting rid of Florence might’ve seemed the only way out at the time and it may very well have been the only way, but I think A lengthy sabbatical was doable…… unless everyone was so frazzled that they just could not take on one more thing. Remember at this time and Diana was a bone and a nervous wreck - she was quite a work horse. Mary could take the strain, Flo couldn’t.

[marv2]

i think you’re missing the point. So what if The Temptations sent Mary a telegram? To show support for Florence they should’ve sent that telegram to Berry Gordy. And Mary didn’t take their advice anyway as she did not stick by Florence. It’s wonderful that people helped Florence out, but that’s not what we are discussing. We are discussing why those people didn’t help Florence Before she was fired…… Not after. I understand that with all the pressure of the girls were under, that just getting rid of Florence might’ve seemed the only way out at the time and it may very well have been the only way, but I think A lengthy sabbatical was doable…… unless everyone was so frazzled that they just could not take on one more thing. Remember at this time and Diana was a bone and a nervous wreck - she was quite a work horse. Mary could take the strain, Flo couldn’t.

No, you're missing point here. We were SUPPOSE to be discussing "Mary still hoping to have a supremes movie made based on her book..." and he brought that up.

[captainjames]

i think you’re missing the point. So what if The Temptations sent Mary a telegram? To show support for Florence they should’ve sent that telegram to Berry Gordy. And Mary didn’t take their advice anyway as she did not stick by Florence. It’s wonderful that people helped Florence out, but that’s not what we are discussing. We are discussing why those people didn’t help Florence Before she was fired…… Not after. I understand that with all the pressure of the girls were under, that just getting rid of Florence might’ve seemed the only way out at the time and it may very well have been the only way, but I think A lengthy sabbatical was doable…… unless everyone was so frazzled that they just could not take on one more thing. Remember at this time and Diana was a bone and a nervous wreck - she was quite a work horse. Mary could take the strain, Flo couldn’t.

Thank you !!!! This is the point I was trying to make.
Writing a letter or sending a telegram means nothing at this point when Flo was almost out the door.

[Roberta75]

Sadly a Supremes movies not gonna happen imo. For the general public Dreamgirls is the Supremes movie. It made a ton of moneey and its shown monthly on cable snd TV channels all over the world. Jennifer Hudsons shout out to Flo at the Golden Globe show just cemented in the publics mind that Dreamgirls is the Storey of the Supremes.

[Roberta75]

I totally disagree without getting into a long dissertation on it. The Temptations specifically sent a telegram to Mary imploring her to stick by Flo, because it could happen to her or any one of them! Once Flo was out of the Supremes and down on her luck, Eddie Kendricks visited her and gave her cash to help her out. That is just few of the stories that I know about that shows that not most everyone in Motown turned on Flo. Al Abrams even acted as her manager for a short time after she was out of Motown and pursuing solo engagements.

And even Al Abrams couldnt get her a good record deal or decent club dates. Showbiz just wasnt for Flo cause Flo didnt want it enough. That rape basically tortured Flo and the poor girl never got the help she needed to deal with that cruel act she had to endurre.

[TheMotownManiac]

No, you're missing point here. We were SUPPOSE to be discussing "Mary still hoping to have a supremes movie made based on her book..." and he brought that up.

No, you're missing point here. We were SUPPOSE to be discussing "Mary still hoping to have a supremes movie made based on her book..." and he brought that up.

The convo has morphed to Flo. The point, again, is that no one helped until AFTER she was out of the group. No one stood up to BG or tried to intervene on her behalf. No one.

As for the top top of the thread:

1) NO ONE will make a movie of Mary’s book because:
A) The Book is decades old and means nothing to today’s movie audience.
B) The book, supposedly, is about Mary and no one knows who Mary Wilson is anymore.
C) The book, thanks to the internet, as source material is Now known to be a one-sided, factually iffy, attempt to shape public image for the gain of its author and not at all a true picture of the group. Case in point: leaving in petty details from childhood and ignoring Diana passing out onstage from exhaustion and having to be hospitalized.
D) Anyone doing a movie about a The Supremes would be a fool to use her book as that would require a payment for the rights and royalties. The story can be told without the book.
E) using Mary’s book title would be confusing and a turnoff if the word Dreamgirl was used and no one would be interested in Mary’s life story because almost no one knows who she is.

Id love a movie about the Supremes, there wouldn’t need to be a villain, but I’m not expecting one.

Now, suppose someone did a film mostly about Mary, focusing on her to be a jealous, manipulating Mattress who had a hard time with veracity and was so consumed with envy and resentment that she wrote a book and created a name for herself As the victim of Diana Ross until the internet age proved otherwise. The entire storyline could be 100 percent factual - just very one-sided. Make Mary out to be like the bad girl from a The Children’s Hour. THAT story might sell and be made into quite an interesting indie film. Anyone can tell any story with the right spin and focus.

No one will ever film Dreamgirl: My Life as a Supreme.

[TheMotownManiac]

And even Al Abrams couldnt get her a good record deal or decent club dates. Showbiz just wasnt for Flo cause Flo didnt want it enough. That rape basically tortured Flo and the poor girl never got the help she needed to deal with that cruel act she had to endurre.

The lifestyle is not for everyone. Imagine being a teenager on The road at Christmas time for birthdays or other important events…… It’s a lot to give up and it’s no embarrassment For people to quit or two find it hard to deal with. I think life on the road Would get real dull after a while and the girls were on the road most of the year. Mary had the right attitude for it. Maybe Diana would have been less stressed if she were not under the thumb of BG and constantly being told the company is riding on her shoulders and she’s not trying hard enough. Real estate is a breeze by comparison.

[captainjames]

The convo has morphed to Flo. The point, again, is that no one helped until AFTER she was out of the group. No one stood up to BG or tried to intervene on her behalf. No one.

As for the top top of the thread:

1) NO ONE will make a movie of Mary’s book because:
A) The Book is decades old and means nothing to today’s movie audience.
B) The book, supposedly, is about Mary and no one knows who Mary Wilson is anymore.
C) The book, thanks to the internet, as source material is Now known to be a one-sided, factually iffy, attempt to shape public image for the gain of its author and not at all a true picture of the group. Case in point: leaving in petty details from childhood and ignoring Diana passing out onstage from exhaustion and having to be hospitalized.
D) Anyone doing a movie about a The Supremes would be a fool to use her book as that would require a payment for the rights and royalties. The story can be told without the book.
E) using Mary’s book title would be confusing and a turnoff if the word Dreamgirl was used and no one would be interested in Mary’s life story because almost no one knows who she is.

Id love a movie about the Supremes, there wouldn’t need to be a villain, but I’m not expecting one.

Now, suppose someone did a film mostly about Mary, focusing on her to be a jealous, manipulating Mattress who had a hard time with veracity and was so consumed with envy and resentment that she wrote a book and created a name for herself As the victim of Diana Ross until the internet age proved otherwise. The entire storyline could be 100 percent factual - just very one-sided. Make Mary out to be like the bad girl from a The Children’s Hour. THAT story might sell and be made into quite an interesting indie film. Anyone can tell any story with the right spin and focus.

No one will ever film Dreamgirl: My Life as a Supreme.

So true......................................this will never happen at least in my lifetime.

[floyjoy678]

The lifestyle is not for everyone. Imagine being a teenager on The road at Christmas time for birthdays or other important events…… It’s a lot to give up and it’s no embarrassment For people to quit or two find it hard to deal with. I think life on the road Would get real dull after a while and the girls were on the road most of the year. Mary had the right attitude for it. Maybe Diana would have been less stressed if she were not under the thumb of BG and constantly being told the company is riding on her shoulders and she’s not trying hard enough. Real estate is a breeze by comparison.

Flo was an introvert. Having people constantly around her, having to go to parties, etc can be really taxing on someone with that type of personality. Mary loved it because she has that outgoing personality.

[TheMotownManiac]

And so many folks in the business wind up on substances to help them cope with performing, partying, flying, being critiqued, the career ups and downs, competition....... add the rape, dealing with being on top, Ross’ work ethic and ego, Mary’s duplicity, Berry’s tyranny, Ross’ Star rising......no true friends to hang with on the road........thats a lot to deal with for anyone.

[midnightman]

It would be difficult for a movie to be made off that book today. Otis Williams was able to do his equally one sided Temptations movie because he knew how to do business better, as unfortunate as that is to say. But that was in the 90s, it's 2019, some 33 years after the Dreamgirl book. The world is different than it was in the '80s when Mary and Diana were still young [[barely in their early 40s at that point). At 75, their worlds have changed. They are now senior citizens with grandkids who can look back at a 60 year career of highs and lows, from the Brewster Projects to the Copacabana to the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame.

As good as a biopic would be, especially light of the runaway successes of Bohemian Rhapsody and Rocketman, these films were not made from books but from the artists' input...with liberties, much like New Edition's biopic.

If a Supremes biopic is to be made, it would have to be from the members themselves: Diana, Mary, Cindy [[who's now ailing), Jean, Lynda, Scherrie, Susaye, Barbara and the estate of Florence and her surviving family. But until that happens, you won't get it.

And I rather for everyone to continue doing what they're doing NOW.

[midnightman]

And so many folks in the business wind up on substances to help them cope with performing, partying, flying, being critiqued, the career ups and downs, competition....... add the rape, dealing with being on top, Ross’ work ethic and ego, Mary’s duplicity, Berry’s tyranny, Ross’ Star rising......no true friends to hang with on the road........thats a lot to deal with for anyone.

No wonder Flo had enough... that's too much for anyone!

[TheMotownManiac]

No wonder Flo had enough... that's too much for anyone!

Exactly! People like to assign blame for what happened to Florence and definitely there were outside influences that contributed to her problem but the bottom line is it was the life of a Supreme that was so hard for her. When they were out doing one nighters they often had to get up early in the morning fly to another city go straight to the radio station and do promotional work there may be on the air or maybe just glad handing the program director and higher ups, then maybe sound check then check into the hotel, rest for a little while eat and get ready for the show and do the whole thing all over again. On top of that, they add songs to learn, new routines to perfect, changes to the current act, proposed changes, notes from the previous night, wardrobe Fittings, publicity photo shoots which would take forever for all the different clothes and make up changes and things that would have to happen and then often they would have a show that night.......it really is a lot and not everyone is up to that. Plus, we’ve all heard how her family was asking for money all the time. And God bless Flo I loved her a lot, but she couldn’t even get through high school. Diana was starving herself, Mary partied and Flo drank. Mary had the right idea but everyone copes differently.

[RanRan79]

Mary has stated that she went along with the program because she was afraid she would get kicked out of the group, but I call bullshit on that because she knew that they were scared to death to get rid of one member of the group they certainly were not going to have to get rid of two there’s no way that they would’ve replaced Mary unless they had no other choice and she knew that. However, she did admit that she sided with Diana and Barry at that meeting in Outer Drive. And Mary is not to blame at all...

I’ve always felt that if the shoe had been on the other foot and mary was the one with the drinking problem and getting kicked out of the group that Florence would not have gone along with the program and fought tooth and nail to prevent that. There’s no way She would’ve accepted Mary’s Ouster unless it was absolutely absolutely absolutely necessary.

Although logic might suggest that Mary had nothing to fear, keep in mind that Mary saw herself as the weakest link in the Supremes and at 23/24 in that situation, logic may not have been on Mary's mind. I can imagine that if she saw herself as the weakest link in the group, if one of the stronger links was ultimately dispensable, why wouldn't she be? Interestingly, something must have clicked in Mary's mind after Flo was let go because even in her own book she makes it clear that she was more vocal and willing to buck both Gordy and Diana.

No way would Flo have stood for Mary being kicked out. Gordy would've had to put both of them out because Flo wouldn't have stood for it. I find no fault with Mary protecting her position in the group. What does bother me is that when Mama Ballard gave Mary the opportunity to speak up for Florence, Mary threw her under the bus, even though she was fully aware of what Flo's problem was. On the flip, I'm also bothered by the fact that Flo didn't bother speaking up for herself. But of course these women were barely adults and when you're young like that, shit happens.

[floyjoy678]

Although logic might suggest that Mary had nothing to fear, keep in mind that Mary saw herself as the weakest link in the Supremes and at 23/24 in that situation, logic may not have been on Mary's mind. I can imagine that if she saw herself as the weakest link in the group, if one of the stronger links was ultimately dispensable, why wouldn't she be? Interestingly, something must have clicked in Mary's mind after Flo was let go because even in her own book she makes it clear that she was more vocal and willing to buck both Gordy and Diana.

No way would Flo have stood for Mary being kicked out. Gordy would've had to put both of them out because Flo wouldn't have stood for it. I find no fault with Mary protecting her position in the group. What does bother me is that when Mama Ballard gave Mary the opportunity to speak up for Florence, Mary threw her under the bus, even though she was fully aware of what Flo's problem was. On the flip, I'm also bothered by the fact that Flo didn't bother speaking up for herself. But of course these women were barely adults and when you're young like that, shit happens.

I wonder if Flo didn't speak up at that meeting because maybe she truly didn't want to be in the group anymore.

[RanRan79]

And even Al Abrams couldnt get her a good record deal or decent club dates. Showbiz just wasnt for Flo cause Flo didnt want it enough. That rape basically tortured Flo and the poor girl never got the help she needed to deal with that cruel act she had to endurre.

Please stop saying Flo didn't want it. That lady knew she was born to sing. Al Abrams was not Florence's manager. He was her publicist. On her own, with Tommy of all people acting as her manager, Florence secured the ABC deal. [[I think Flo's lawyer was also involved.) The deal itself wasn't a bad deal. She got a hefty signing bonus and I have not yet heard that she had to sign her life away to do it. Was ABC a good fit? Probably not. Not to mention that the timing of her recording and touring again coincided with her pregnancy with twins, which isn't easy for any woman, but especially one with so much going on as Florence had. Her initial bookings were low rate, which shouldn't have surprised anyone knowing that Tommy was Flo's manager. The good thing is that Flo did wise up that Tommy was over his head and she was soon being managed by the Joe Glaser Agency which resulted in much better bookings, including the Latin Casino which was also a place where the Supremes had already or would eventually play. [[Unfortunately Flo pulled out of the Latin Casino gig right before the date, but no one has ever given a reason for it. I believe it was late in Flo's pregnancy so that probably had something to do with it.)

While people around the Supremes have all pretty much agreed that there were times when Florence complained about the touring schedule, none of Flo's most volatile moments in the group seem centered around complaints regarding touring. Flo seems to have been extremely upset by Diana's ego and attitude and Gordy's shenanigans. Show business can be a cruel place, sometimes more or less cruel depending on the players involved. Florence's troubles in the group, by all accounts, started in 1966. For seven years this lady, along with Diana and Mary, went after stardom and it wasn't a problem. Then after she was fired from the group, she still went after a career in singing. And then shortly before her death she was still talking about having a career in music. That's not the identity of someone who wants no part of showbiz. If that was the case she would've gone into the antique business after the Supremes like Diana once claimed, and she definitely would've found some other kind of work in the 70s instead of telling people she was ready to get back in.

Saying Florence Ballard didn't want to be a singer or be successful at it allows the narrative to skip over what was really bothering her about the Supremes.

[khansperac]

So let’s say a Supreme movie was made, and they portrayed Mary as not speaking up for Flo because she was strategically trying to up her position in the group, not because she feared she would be next, how would fans react?

[RanRan79]

Exactly! People like to assign blame for what happened to Florence and definitely there were outside influences that contributed to her problem but the bottom line is it was the life of a Supreme that was so hard for her. When they were out doing one nighters they often had to get up early in the morning fly to another city go straight to the radio station and do promotional work there may be on the air or maybe just glad handing the program director and higher ups, then maybe sound check then check into the hotel, rest for a little while eat and get ready for the show and do the whole thing all over again. On top of that, they add songs to learn, new routines to perfect, changes to the current act, proposed changes, notes from the previous night, wardrobe Fittings, publicity photo shoots which would take forever for all the different clothes and make up changes and things that would have to happen and then often they would have a show that night.......it really is a lot and not everyone is up to that. Plus, we’ve all heard how her family was asking for money all the time. And God bless Flo I loved her a lot, but she couldn’t even get through high school. Diana was starving herself, Mary partied and Flo drank. Mary had the right idea but everyone copes differently.

I still can't recall reading Florence saying anything about having an issue with any of this except maybe flying. In none of the "documented" arguments between she and Gordy and Ross is any of this stuff being flung around. Florence had a problem with her position being marginalized and having to deal with Ross and Gordy's attitudes. No way does she leave the group if Berry and Diana were nicer people.

And what does Flo dropping out of school have to do with any of this? That's such a random attack.

[marv2]

Please stop saying Flo didn't want it. That lady knew she was born to sing. Al Abrams was not Florence's manager. He was her publicist. On her own, with Tommy of all people acting as her manager, Florence secured the ABC deal. [[I think Flo's lawyer was also involved.) The deal itself wasn't a bad deal. She got a hefty signing bonus and I have not yet heard that she had to sign her life away to do it. Was ABC a good fit? Probably not. Not to mention that the timing of her recording and touring again coincided with her pregnancy with twins, which isn't easy for any woman, but especially one with so much going on as Florence had. Her initial bookings were low rate, which shouldn't have surprised anyone knowing that Tommy was Flo's manager. The good thing is that Flo did wise up that Tommy was over his head and she was soon being managed by the Joe Glaser Agency which resulted in much better bookings, including the Latin Casino which was also a place where the Supremes had already or would eventually play. [[Unfortunately Flo pulled out of the Latin Casino gig right before the date, but no one has ever given a reason for it. I believe it was late in Flo's pregnancy so that probably had something to do with it.)

While people around the Supremes have all pretty much agreed that there were times when Florence complained about the touring schedule, none of Flo's most volatile moments in the group seem centered around complaints regarding touring. Flo seems to have been extremely upset by Diana's ego and attitude and Gordy's shenanigans. Show business can be a cruel place, sometimes more or less cruel depending on the players involved. Florence's troubles in the group, by all accounts, started in 1966. For seven years this lady, along with Diana and Mary, went after stardom and it wasn't a problem. Then after she was fired from the group, she still went after a career in singing. And then shortly before her death she was still talking about having a career in music. That's not the identity of someone who wants no part of showbiz. If that was the case she would've gone into the antique business after the Supremes like Diana once claimed, and she definitely would've found some other kind of work in the 70s instead of telling people she was ready to get back in.

Saying Florence Ballard didn't want to be a singer or be successful at it allows the narrative to skip over what was really bothering her about the Supremes.

They say that kind of stuff in hopes that it will deflect away from Diana Ross and Berry Gordy and the popular perception that they were played a big part in Florence Ballard's downfall.

[RanRan79]

I wonder if Flo didn't speak up at that meeting because maybe she truly didn't want to be in the group anymore.

I think it's more possible that she felt defeated. She probably already suspected Mary was aligned with the enemy, which is why she brought her mother to the meeting. Having confirmation, Flo might have had the attitude of "what good would it do" to fight for a spot in a group with two women who were "okay" with her being fired. I think it's also worth pointing out that if Florence truly didn't want to be in the group any longer, when Gordy called her back in after the Hollywood Bowl she would've told him where to stick himself and the group. She didn't do that. She came back.

[Guy]

Jennifer Hudsons shout out to Flo at the Golden Globe show just cemented in the publics mind that Dreamgirls is the Storey of the Supremes.

That made me cringe. I am not sure why Hudson invoked Flo during that speech but it made the connection between the movie and The Supremes seem real and intentional. A disservice to all involved.

[PeaceNHarmony]

So let’s say a Supreme movie was made, and they portrayed Mary as not speaking up for Flo because she was strategically trying to up her position in the group, not because she feared she would be next, how would fans react?About as well as they will in follow-up posts, I'd assume! Hehehehe

[RanRan79]

So let’s say a Supreme movie was made, and they portrayed Mary as not speaking up for Flo because she was strategically trying to up her position in the group, not because she feared she would be next, how would fans react?

Two answers, both hinge on whether someone is a Mary fan or an Anti Mary. Anti Mary people, who are overwhelmingly pro Rossers, will delight in this, take it as fact, and use it in back and forths with Marv here in Soulful Detroit. Mary's fans will call foul and accuse the movie maker of trying to make Mary look bad, probably in the hopes of making Diana look better.

My personal opinion is that I don't think Mary was that type of person. She might not speak up for Flo, but I don't think there was any part of her that wished Florence any harm, especially to elevate herself. I basically feel the same way about Diana. She might position herself- even by throwing an elbow or two to get Flo out of her way- but she never wished ill of Flo or hoped that by positioning herself in front of Flo that Flo would somehow lose anything. They were young ladies trying to find- and fight for- their place in the world. Most young people's lives are full of this, it's just that these three ladies were having to do it while being among the most famous people on earth.

[RanRan79]

They say that kind of stuff in hopes that it will deflect away from Diana Ross and Berry Gordy and the popular perception that they were played a big part in Florence Ballard's downfall.

They were a big part of Flo's downfall from the group, but Flo was the biggest part of her downfall in life. What ticks me off the most about Flo after she was fired was that she was consumed by her fights against the powers that be. Don't get me wrong, she had every right to sue her lawyer for taking her money, and she had every right to sue Motown if she felt as though she wasn't given what was her due. But she was consumed by these things and her anger over them. I wish someone in her life- assuming Flo would've listened- had told her, "Do what you gotta do, but don't lose sight of the big picture. God blessed you with a voice, use it. Let your new lawyers fight for you. In the mean time get back to music." I think we lost out on some good stuff from Florence music wise during the early 70s.

Of course Flo also was an alcoholic, so that had something to do with her decision making skills. Couple that with the fact that Flo was married to a jackass and it's like she couldn't win for losing. With a good man by her side- not that I'm suggesting a woman has to have a man in order to be better or do better- but I do believe if she had a good man to lean on and one who understood her and was supportive in every way, she may have done better. Never underestimate the power of a dickhead husband or wife. They'll help bring you down every time.

[RanRan79]

That made me cringe. I am not sure why Hudson invoked Flo during that speech but it made the connection between the movie and The Supremes seem real and intentional. A disservice to all involved.

Because the public has believed since the early 1980s that Effie White was based on Flo Ballard, and she was. I think Jennifer even said she read up on Flo to prepare for the part, so why wouldn't she thank her?

[khansperac]

Just so people don’t think this question is out of left field, or that I’m trying to deflect from Berry and Diana, here are a couple of points. In Berry’s book he said that it was Mary working it in the background that made Diana up her game. It was Mary, even with their first recordings as the Primettes who sang lead on recordings- not Florence. While as Supremes Florence just wanted everyone to be equal, it was Mary that wanted more leads. Then we have the Florence solo on People, that for years Mary said Flo was devastated over because Diana took the lead from her. Only to be revealed years later on YouTube that Mary was singing the lead vocals [[ on the Orient show).

[RanRan79]

Just so people don’t think this question is out of left field, or that I’m trying to deflect from Berry and Diana, here are a couple of points. In Berry’s book he said that it was Mary working it in the background that made Diana up her game. It was Mary, even with their first recordings as the Primettes who sang lead on recordings- not Florence. While as Supremes Florence just wanted everyone to be equal, it was Mary that wanted more leads. Then we have the Florence solo on People, that for years Mary said Flo was devastated over because Diana took the lead from her. Only to be revealed years later on YouTube that Mary was singing the lead vocals [[ on the Orient show).

I always thought that was Gordy's way of trying to downplay the Flo vs Diana [[and ultimately himself) issue, by saying it wasn't Flo who was in competition with Ross, it was Mary. With maturity I now think he had a point. If you watch the old performances, Mary really does work the performance in a way that Flo doesn't. Vocally of course Flo kills it, but in the choreography and hamming it up for the camera, Mary usually dominates Florence, although personally I think Flo catches the eye without having to do much. But did Mary push Diana in this way? Maybe. Diana was competitive. Did Mary consciously compete with Diana in this way? I don't know. I think Mary would always feel like she couldn't compete with Diana or Flo vocally, so maybe she did feel like she had do something.

As for the Primettes, I think the key word is definitly equality. While the public often operates under the misconception that Flo was the official lead singer of the group, it was an equal partnership from the beginning. The song that won the Primettes the very public coveted talent contest was a duet between Flo and Diana. The fact that the two songs released on their first single were Diana and Mary seems to speak to the equality.

Flo said that she was the one who chose "People" for herself, while she also chose "I Am Woman" for Diana. How Diana ended up with a verse in "People" is anybody's guess. What we do know is that Mary used "People" for dramatic benefit in her book years before being able to debunk it was a possibility. We know now that not only was "People" not a solo, it remained in the act through 1966, Diana never sang it alone [[until the DRATS period) and Mary herself sang a verse of the song at a certain point. One more reason why you can't believe everything you read.

[marv2]

There was so much drama in the Supremes story that it should be made into a film! They were the biggest American Pop group of the 1960s and should be immortalized on film. They are a part of American history that is intentionally being neglected for a variety of reasons except the right one.

[reese]

Just so people don’t think this question is out of left field, or that I’m trying to deflect from Berry and Diana, here are a couple of points. In Berry’s book he said that it was Mary working it in the background that made Diana up her game. It was Mary, even with their first recordings as the Primettes who sang lead on recordings- not Florence. While as Supremes Florence just wanted everyone to be equal, it was Mary that wanted more leads. Then we have the Florence solo on People, that for years Mary said Flo was devastated over because Diana took the lead from her. Only to be revealed years later on YouTube that Mary was singing the lead vocals [[ on the Orient show).

In her 1970 EBONY article, Diana said something like now that she was on her own it might be difficult to pace herself because she always had Mary to pace with. I never quite knew what that meant. When I read Berry's book and he wrote that Mary was always on Diana's heels, I understood it better.

[PeaceNHarmony]

Just so people don’t think this question is out of left field, or that I’m trying to deflect from Berry and Diana, here are a couple of points. In Berry’s book he said that it was Mary working it in the background that made Diana up her game. It was Mary, even with their first recordings as the Primettes who sang lead on recordings- not Florence. While as Supremes Florence just wanted everyone to be equal, it was Mary that wanted more leads. Then we have the Florence solo on People, that for years Mary said Flo was devastated over because Diana took the lead from her. Only to be revealed years later on YouTube that Mary was singing the lead vocals [[ on the Orient show).Hmmm. Mary singing 'People' ... hehehe!

[TheMotownManiac]

Although logic might suggest that Mary had nothing to fear, keep in mind that Mary saw herself as the weakest link in the Supremes and at 23/24 in that situation, logic may not have been on Mary's mind. I can imagine that if she saw herself as the weakest link in the group, if one of the stronger links was ultimately dispensable, why wouldn't she be? Interestingly, something must have clicked in Mary's mind after Flo was let go because even in her own book she makes it clear that she was more vocal and willing to buck both Gordy and Diana.

No way would Flo have stood for Mary being kicked out. Gordy would've had to put both of them out because Flo wouldn't have stood for it. I find no fault with Mary protecting her position in the group. What does bother me is that when Mama Ballard gave Mary the opportunity to speak up for Florence, Mary threw her under the bus, even though she was fully aware of what Flo's problem was. On the flip, I'm also bothered by the fact that Flo didn't bother speaking up for herself. But of course these women were barely adults and when you're young like that, shit happens.

i agree that Mary knew her place in the group, Flo was unusually wonderful for a bg singer, but, as anyone can attest who saw them live, Mary was clearly an asset as well and she knew it. All the club dates they played with the audience right there with them gave them all a birds eye view of their impact as a group and individually. Personally, I recall Mary being sexy and demure and a perfect fit. It’s possible that she thought her job was at stake, but I don’t think so at all. More than anything, Mary was quite aware how nervous Motown wise to make a personnel change in the Supremes, they waited a long time and put up with a lot - I still believe that Mary knew they would avoid a giant change like that unless it was absolutely absolutely necessary. Had that been the case, I think they would’ve just made Diana go solo at that point. This was not like changing a Vandella or dropping a Marvelette, this was the goose that laid the golden egg, and you don’t fuck with that unless you absolutely absolutely absolutely had to. Plus I can’t imagine Diana wanting to bring two people into the group that were new.....I just don’t see it at all.

[TheMotownManiac]

I still can't recall reading Florence saying anything about having an issue with any of this except maybe flying. In none of the "documented" arguments between she and Gordy and Ross is any of this stuff being flung around. Florence had a problem with her position being marginalized and having to deal with Ross and Gordy's attitudes. No way does she leave the group if Berry and Diana were nicer people.

And what does Flo dropping out of school have to do with any of this? That's such a random attack.

That’s not an attack at all, I am simply comparing her inability to cope with high school and her inability to be in the Supremes And how she dealt with both situations. I’m not judging her at all for not finishing high school, it’s my observation that perhaps Flo didn’t have the personal fortitude to buckle down and put her nose to the grind stone and overcome the obstacles she faced. Some people can do that, many cannot.

flo’s position in the group was marginalized in 1963 and never changed after that. And I’m sure it bothered her a great deal, but, a lot of singers would have given their eye teeth to To deal with that marginalization. Certainly Berry Gordy and diana ross could’ve dealt with her differently and perhaps have been nicer or more understanding to her situation or both. But diana ross was having her own issues remember, she was tense and not eating and passing out on stage in early 1966 so she wasn’t having an easy time of it either and bad in my opinion should be taking to consideration when dealing with her attitude…… Which I assume was Gargantuan at times. I rarely read about “poor Diana - she’s down to 93 pounds” but I have to give her a pass for a lot of her behavior because she was a mess much like Flo, only a different kind of a mess.

Mary refers to Florence complaining about their hectic schedule and dream girl, it’s also reference to other places that I can’t remember off the top of my head and in one of the interviews that her cousin gave, It is referenced. Also in Mary’s book, she talks about being resentful that the powers that be at Motown felt that she and Florence were not working as hard as Diana and I can only imagine having different people complaining to Mary and Florence about being late for rehearsals not trying as hard…… That’s never going to sit well with anybody in any situation. The easiest way to build animosity into any group is to admonish people for not being more like the golden child. I’ve also read, although I cannot remember where, that Florence was exhausted and that she and Mary were asking Barry Gordy if they could take a few months off every so often. And Barry Gordy, with a bank account where his heart ought to be, didn’t care one bit I’m sure. If he can work diana ross into a frazzle Without worrying about the toll it was taking on her, he certainly wasn’t going to give any sympathy to Mary and Florence.

‘’I firmly Believe that if Mary and Florence had gone to that meeting and said look, let’s give Florence three months off to rest recoup and get herself together and then will all get back together again and start fresh with new attitudes and A focus on the future that would include a couple weeks off every few months…… That there’s a chance things could’ve worked out. I do believe that Florence expected Mary to stick up for her at the meeting and was shocked and horrified when she didn’t. I firmly believe that’s when Florence gave up…… And as mary’s book and other books state, after that meeting Florence had stopped talking to mary as well as diana and Berry …… There’s a reason for that - she felt betrayed.

[RanRan79]

People drop out of school for a variety of reasons. I don't recall any reason given for Flo. A lot of artistic people throw schooling away when they set their minds on their goal within their art. By the time Flo dropped out, her group was working steadily without a record deal which may have led her to believe that the Primettes, soon to be Supremes, was more valuable and the possibilities more lucrative than any opportunity she might get from continuing with high school. And obviously we're talking about Florence Ballard because, if this was indeed her rationale, she was right...for the amount of time she spent on top. This is a common story in the entertainment industry.

What happened in 1963 was Gordy designating Diana lead singer. Even after that Flo says that she was the one who thought Diana should sing "I Am Woman", so I don't think Flo was all that bothered by Diana being the official lead, especially when Flo was still given a lead here and there, and "People" was a part of their live act- sans the first Copa gig- from 1964-1966. I think what pushed Flo over the edge was things like telling she and Mary that an interview was scheduled at 2 but it was really 1:30 so that Diana could get solo time. Or the story attributed to Florence about the taping of the commercial the girls did for Unicef I think, when Flo says originally the script called for each girl to have lines and then Diana decided she wanted to do the whole thing and Flo and Mary were reduced to smiling faces. That seemed to be the stuff that got up Flo's nose the most.

I made mention that Flo had complaints, but everyone complains about something. That's just being a human being. I don't recall any volatile arguments and scenes surrounding Flo's complaints about the schedule, unless you count the anecdote of Gordy calling the ladies into his office one day and announcing that he was going to give them weeks off but he's changed his mind because Florence thinks too much, and then he leaves the room and the ladies behind to argue apparently the fact that Flo thinks too much.*eye roll* The big blowups between Flo and Diana and Flo and Gordy are almost always about attitude and treatment, not airplanes and interviews. The fact is that if any of us "normal" people had to deal with a boss like Gordy or a co-worker like Diana on our regular jobs there would be a problem.

While your scenario of Flo taking time off is an interesting one, the truth is that it wouldn't have mattered if Gordy and Ross stayed the same. If they don't change their behaviors, Flo still has the same problems. Factor in Flo's alcoholism, which surely needed to be treated, and nothing is really resolved.

[reese]

People drop out of school for a variety of reasons. I don't recall any reason given for Flo.

I thought Flo dropped out of school for a time after her assault but I could be wrong. I think that's what Mary wrote. First she returned to the Primettes. Then she went back to school.

In the liner notes of their first album, it made mention that the group had released two singles before it was decided to hold off on releasing a third until they finished high school. It went on to say that "with one girl almost out of school [[a mere 2 months)..." I'm assuming that was Flo. So she was close to finishing if the liner notes can be believed.

Note: my quote above is from memory. I don't have the album in front of me at the moment.

[floyjoy678]

I recall Diana saying that Flo cared more about her musical career aspirations than school and that often she and Mary had to help Flo with her homework so that she could leave the house to rehearse with the group.

[sup_fan]

none of us have recordings of their very, very early shows [[circa 59 - 62) to really know how many songs in the live set were lead by each girl.

The idea that Flo was THE lead singer for the Primettes or the early Supremes is simply not accurate. She was A lead singer among several others. They trading singing lead depending on the song and, i'm guessing, their own interests. By the time they started recording at motown, Diana was the primary lead and Flo did quite a few and Mary just a handful.

let's look at the breakdown of the known recordings from this era:

1960 - they recorded 5 songs. One was a shared lead by all 4 girls and the other 4 were Diana leads

1961 - they recorded [[roughly) 15 songs. they redid a few so might be a couple more or less. but of those 15, 2 were Mary leads, 4 were Flo leads and 9 were Diana leads

1962 - 7 recordings all Diana leads, although Flo is spotlighted in the outro of Let Me Go Right Way and she and Mary share the lead chorus on Breathtaking

[sup_fan]

definitely agree with the comments here that mention how Mary shined on stage. While she might not have had quite as distinctive of a voice as Diana and while she wasn't the lead singer, she is a gifted entertainer and a talented vocalist. She most absolutely added to the live presentation.

there's been a lot written about how the 3 original supremes all had IT and how, together, they created a sensational package. You had Diana as the lead that was energetic, her coy eyes glancing out from huge eyelashes, her passion and drive and eagerness.

you had Mary who was and still is sensationally beautiful. She added glamour, some sizzling sex appeal and a dynamic presence on stage. I'm sure Diana had to work extra to try and keep 1 step ahead. they two of them could push each other further and further

And then flo added a kindness. A wonderful dose of reality. a gifted singer, with wonderful comedic timing, she helped keep the Supremes accessible to viewers and audiences.

together - what a combo

[sup_fan]

there are a lot of reasons, IMO, on why the group disintegrated

1. different goals - Diana pretty quickly began to realize that the sky was the limit for herself. And Berry shared this perspective. So they started laying the course to do just that and it didn't include M and F. M and F were wanting to see how long and far the GROUP could go. different goals and Diana's were shared by the boss

2. hard work - while we all see the glamour and excitement, their schedule and work load was grueling. motown was absolutely focused on milking every last dime they could out of this thing called The Supremes. who could have guessed that there'd be such longevity to the music and group? strike while the iron is hot. and so the girls were pushed to the very limits of endurance in order to do this

3. politics - as in ANY job, politics play a role.

4. emotional issues - Flo's personal demons were a source of many of the inter-personal problems. She was unable to always cope with the demands and pressure of the group. And i'm sure for a while D and M and even Berry tried to work around that. but after a while it just gets to be too much. everyone else is able to push on and if one person can't that can easily lead to tension and dissent.

[midnightman]

I hate that it's still being sold in some circles that Flo was the original lead singer, there WAS no designated lead singer in the group but it seemed like producers felt Diana had a pop sound from the start because on the first Primettes single, it's her on lead. Even before they signed to Motown, there were at least 5 songs where Diana sung lead on. Flo and Mary did sing leads on some songs, least songs that fit their style as Mary wrote in Dreamgirl [[Flo did the harder R&B stuff, Mary did ballads, Diana did pop/doo wop).

I think what the Supremes had in the beginning was unison. Everyone was equal. Diana became the designated lead in 1963 and Mary & Flo didn't complain THEN because they were still treated as a unit. By 1966, however, is when things really changed and the things described that ticked Flo off is what got the group to go in separate directions.

Flo wanted the Supremes to stick together like glue but it just wasn't in the cards.

[REYnoldo Chavez]

Not to mention most of ... well, I'll stop there. Wonder if the Mary-loonies realize the damage they do to to her? But I've always said: the most hysterical Wilson 'fans' don't GAF about her. They just want to insult other Supremes. And they always [[ALWAYS! Look at the sales of tickets at the Apollo ...) lose.

You are the one that sounds like a loony. I love Mary Wilson. My late Nana loved her and said Mary was her favorite Supreme. She came to this country from Cuba in the 1960's and fell in love with the Supreme. She never really learned English well. So I translated Mary's books to for her.