Carol Kaye Controversy continues...

[timthemod]

In this month's UK magazine 'Record Collector', there's a short two page interview with LA Wrecking Crew Bassist Carol Kaye. In the introduction the writer is claiming she plays on the Supremes tracks 'Baby Love' and 'You Can't Hurry Love'. To be fair these songs are not mentioned in the interview, but she is doing James Jameson's memory a diservice. I dont doubt that she played on a large number of West Coast Motown sessions [[Brenda Holloway etc). There's a large discussion on some Youtube clips, especially that fact she claims to have played on 'I Was Made To Love Her'.

Surely she can't have played on the two Supremes songs. Has she every even been to Detroit, let alone Hitsville? I really wish JJ was still alive to put paid to these claims, even though as I understand it, some ex-Motown staff have written this wasn't possible.

[roger]

Well ..

I don't believe for one moment that Carol Kaye played on the hit versions of those tunes, and it would be nice to hear some comment from LAMONT DOZIER and THE HOLLAND BROTHERS about this.

What I've assumed to be the case, ever since I became aware of this controversy, is that Ms Kaye played on some re-recordings of these tunes to be used as backing tracks on T.V. shows etc. and has confused that with being on the original hit recording.

Roger

[ralpht]

This is an old issue regarding Ms. Kaye. I can state without ANY doubt that she did NOT play on any of the original recordings.

[topdiva1]

Well ..

I don't believe for one moment that Carol Kaye played on the hit versions of those tunes, and it would be nice to hear some comment from LAMONT DOZIER and THE HOLLAND BROTHERS about this.

What I've assumed to be the case, ever since I became aware of this controversy, is that Ms Kaye played on some re-recordings of these tunes to be used as backing tracks on T.V. shows etc. and has confused that with being on the original hit recording.

Roger

And she did not.

[soulster]

Maybe Kaye is mentally ill. That's all I can come up with.

[theboyfromxtown]

Soulster

I would agree that the lady is confused. I suspect she did so many recordings that her memory becomes a little "hazed" and that's understandable.

[bradsupremes]

Regarding "I Was Made To Love Her," I think Carol Kaye is confusing herself with the Beach Boys recording of the song. I believe she may have played bass on the Beach Boys version, but no way she did do the Steve Wonder original.

[marv2]

It was impossible. She wasn't even there in Detroit when those sessions took place. Bob Babbitt confirmed that on here in the old forum and there are sworn affidavits by Holland-Dozier and Holland saying pretty much the same thing. They didn't know who she was. I think that maybe is her kid commenting on the video LOL!

[marv2]

This is an old issue regarding Ms. Kaye. I can state without ANY doubt that she did NOT play on any of the original recordings.

Good Ralph, exactly! I have been having this debate with people for about a year now.

[marybrewster]

Maybe she played on the FLOs versions?

[Motown4Ever518]

As a musician, I respect Carol Kaye as a musician but her saying that she played on those 2 Supremes tracks is in a word, incredible. I can see her having played on some Love Child era tracks, but Can't Hurry Love is probably one of the top 25 bass lines in any idiom. As a drummer the interplay between bass and drums could only be Benny and James, there was not anyone else who dropped accents on the toms, or played the bass pedal with an almost "cat and mouse" approach with the bassist as those 2 did. I would be willing to give Ms. Kaye a pass and say that during the interview she either got confused by which 2 Supremes songs she played on or does not respect the music and just listed the first 2 Supremes songs that came to mind, figuring that nobody cares about events that took place roughly 45 years ago. We at this forum do take our Motown seriously!

[topdiva1]

^^^^ well put.

[radionixon]

She's embarrassing herself. Reading Allan Slutsky's comprehensive point-by-point demolition of her arguments years ago [[including sworn affidavits from Brian Holland and Henry Cosby themselves) was enough for me:

http://www.bassland.net/jamerson.html#drlicks

Seeing her other recent controversies - most notably threatening to sue Google for "hosting pirate copies" of some bass textbooks she wrote 30-odd years ago, and then extremely viciously insulting people who took the time to explain what Google actually is - makes me think she's just out of touch with reality, surrounded by yes-men and sycophants; together, they've taken an honest, understandable mistake and some confused memories, and made it a points-scoring crusade that does nobody any credit. I firmly believe she's got to a place now where she honestly believes what she's saying, but there's no doubt at all that it's total, unadulterated bollocks.

The ironic thing about all of this is that nobody would deny Carole Kaye is a bona fide music legend, one of the all-time greats; she doesn't have to tarnish her considerable legacy by this sort of nonsense.

[theboyfromxtown]

Radionixon

Your last paragraph sums up my feelings on the matter.

[bradburger]

Radionixon

Your last paragraph sums up my feelings on the matter.

I still wonder after all these years why Ms Kaye still claims she played on tunes that were clearly not her when there is overwhelming evidence to suggest otherwise! Plus there's also her deluded fans who believe her and won't use their ears properly or take in the evidence that's been put before them.

I must admit, it puts doubt in my mind regarding the non-Motown songs and hits she claims to have played on, and makes me wonder if she did indeed play on any of Motown's 60's L.A cuts [[she is credited in the first "Hitsville USA" box as one of the L.A musicians).

Cheers

Paul

[theboyfromxtown]

But Paul. It's not the West Coast recordings that gets us so upset. Fair enough if the track is a west coast recording but not on something like Stevie's "I Was Made To Love Her" that is so clearly a Hitsville USA recording.

I agree with you on the West Coast recordings and I understand that the Lewis Sisters have even confirmed that Carole played on their sessions.

[bradburger]

But Paul. It's not the West Coast recordings that gets us so upset. Fair enough if the track is a west coast recording but not on something like Stevie's "I Was Made To Love Her" that is so clearly a Hitsville USA recording.

I agree with you on the West Coast recordings and I understand that the Lewis Sisters have even confirmed that Carole played on their sessions.

I totally agree John.

Apologies if my post wasn't clear.

IWMTLH is very clearly a Hitsville recording and is of course Jamerson playing the bass.

Cheers

Paul

[theboyfromxtown]

No apology necessary....I was agreeing with ya! I just have an odd way of saying it! HAHA

[midnightman]

I got a question: was Carol Kaye really associated with Motown?

[destruction]

Carol Kaye is a professional musician.

Carol Kaye is a Liar.

There is no controversy.

Next.....

[MIKEW-UK]

Frank Wilson audio clip [[taken from Carol Kaye's website) stating she was bassist on Do I Love You ....

http://www.carolkaye.com/audio/Frank_Wilson_Recorded_Interview.mp3

[theboyfromxtown]

This goes back to what Paul and I were talking about earlier. Frank Wilson was a West Coast recording and even staunch Motown collectors would accept Carole's validity.

[marv2]

Frank Wilson audio clip [[taken from Carol Kaye's website) stating she was bassist on Do I Love You ....

http://www.carolkaye.com/audio/Frank_Wilson_Recorded_Interview.mp3



That is a nice record, but it was not a hit! Ms. Kaye has been laying claim to have played on some of the greatest hits Motown Records ever had. The epicenter for this lastest round of "debates" is my video of Stevie Wonder's " I Was Made to Love her" [[referenced by timthemod at the top of this thread). It's really down to only one or two guys now after about a year of back and forth. Even after I provided a link in the video description that disproves claims made by Ms. Kaye, the arguments persist. I think some guys just hate to be wrong, while some others that just like to argue.
"

[theboyfromxtown]

Marv2

I suspect we all have the same thoughts as you with that last sentence. But hey, we can only control how we feel and not others.

Qute right, the record wasn't a hit....well not until 1979 when it was released in the UK and us Brits bought it in such large quantities that it suited Carole to have that song added to her already ample reputation. There aren't that many original 45's that have sold for £25,742.

[tomato tom]

I have the UK original single. See it going on e-bay between £70 -£100 now. CRAZY!!!..Paulo xxx

[roger]

Hello All ..

Re : "I Was Made To Love Her".

A book came out in 2000 called "A Motown Reader" edited by KINGSLEY ABBOTT [[ U.K. Music Fan ) which contains an interview he had with Ms Kaye .. this is the book.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Calling-Out-Around-World-Odyssey/dp/1900924145

In it she is quite adamant that she played bass on the released version of "I Was Made To Love Her", and claims that STEVIE WONDER acknowledges this.

HOWEVER .. The notes on the track in TCMS7 [[ published 2007 ) clearly state it was JAMES JAMERSON, and the instrumental track was included on the deluxe version of the "Standing In The Shadows of Motown" CD in 2004 as Mr Jamerson's "signature bass performance" which to my mind totally demolishes her claims.


Roger

[skooldem1]

The only thing I know about this topic is what I've read at this forum over the years. I have not done extensive research. Right now I'm leaning towards her mixing up her memories. However ANYTHING is possible. With that said, for years we were to believe that on some classic Motown tracks we actually heard the Supremes behind Diana, or Marvellettes singing, etc. Could she have been a "stand in" like some of the background vocalist at Motown? Are some people strong in their convictions because they don't want the dream shattered? Is it really possible that every funk brother played on every Motown recording and not one missed, or could'nt make a session?

[uptight]

Good question, Skooldem. Also, how can we tell which albums Jr. Walker's band The All Stars band played on and which feature Jr. Walker with The Funks?

But I would tend to believe the notes in the SITSOM soundtrack CD, because the catalog producers have access to studio session logs. "I Was Made To Love Her" sounds sooo "Hitsville," it ain't even funny. If Jamerson were absent that day, what would Ms. Kaye be doing in Detroit when there were other bass players available, and with so much work for her in L.A?

[jboy88]

Good question, Skooldem. Also, how can we tell which albums Jr. Walker's band The All Stars band played on and which feature Jr. Walker with The Funks?
?

as far as my ears are concerned, the All-Stars were present on most of the JR. Walker recordings prior to "What Does It Take". Of course, Jamerson was featured regardless due the absence of a bass player in the band.

[marv2]

In my opinion, all of the best Motown Music was made in Detroit with very few exceptions.

[marv2]

The only thing I know about this topic is what I've read at this forum over the years. I have not done extensive research. Right now I'm leaning towards her mixing up her memories. However ANYTHING is possible. With that said, for years we were to believe that on some classic Motown tracks we actually heard the Supremes behind Diana, or Marvellettes singing, etc. Could she have been a "stand in" like some of the background vocalist at Motown? Are some people strong in their convictions because they don't want the dream shattered? Is it really possible that every funk brother played on every Motown recording and not one missed, or could'nt make a session?

Right now I am leaning towards that woman is lying and she figures that with a lot of people dead already that who's going to question her? Every Supremes and Marvelettes record had a Supreme or a Marvelette on them so there is no "dream" to be shatter because it isn't that serious.

The question here isn't about whether or not every Funnk Brother played on every Motown recording without missing a session. The question is taking credit for someone else's work.

[marv2]

Good question, Skooldem. Also, how can we tell which albums Jr. Walker's band The All Stars band played on and which feature Jr. Walker with The Funks?

But I would tend to believe the notes in the SITSOM soundtrack CD, because the catalog producers have access to studio session logs. "I Was Made To Love Her" sounds sooo "Hitsville," it ain't even funny. If Jamerson were absent that day, what would Ms. Kaye be doing in Detroit when there were other bass players available, and with so much work for her in L.A?

Uptight, I'll bottomline it. Eddie and Brian Holland said that it is James Jamerson playing on that recording. Ralph says the same thing, so does Bob Babbitt. They were THERE! That is all the proof I need to hear, how about you?

[roger]

This is an interesting link, featuring in-depth analysis of Carol Kaye's claims.

http://www.bassland.net/jamerson.html#drlicks

Basically most of her claims are refuted, but it is acknowledged that she played on a lot of the L.A. recorded material, such as songs by BRENDA HOLLOWAY, and the "showbizzy" stuff like the "T.C.B Soundtrack".

Roger

[uptight]

Regarding TCB, I figured Kaye performed for Diana's "Afro Vogue" segment, which includes a re-recording of "Reflections." But during the live segments [[with audience), in the few moments where the band is shown, I don't see a single female musician. And I thought the Tempts had their own band, and The Supremes had theirs. Where exactly was Ms. Kaye during this TV program?

Oh, well. At least I can consider the controversy for "I Was Made To Love Her" over and at rest.

[frankm]

Carol Kaye does not mention any Motown record in the article in Record Collector. It is mentioned by Elliot Stephen in his pre amble to the article.




Anyone experiencing Good Vibrations or California Girls by The Beach Boys, You’ve Lost That Lovin’ Feelin’, or Unchained Melody, by The Righteous Brothers, These Boots Are Made For Walkin’ by Nancy Sinatra, Baby Love or You Can’t Hurry Love by The Supremes, I Was Made To Love Her by Stevie Wonder, This Is My Song by Petula Clark, Sam Cooke’s Wonderful World, or River Deep Mountain High by Ike & Tina Turner, has been touched by Kaye’s unique musicianship, on both bass and guitar.

I'm sure I was not the only reader of the magazine to note the error. I'm sure it will be corrected in the next edition.

I do have a record of Carol playing on What does it take but it's by The Fifth Dimension.

[bankhousedave]

As stated above, it's very difficult to understand why Carol would make claims such as this when she did play on almost every other record ever made. The Supremes tracks I believe she played on were In and Out of Love and [[possibly) The Happening, although I'm not wholly convinced about the latter. I recommend you read what Spider Webb has to say in his book.

[uptight]

While the backing track to "The Happening" was originally recorded in L.A., HDH re-cut it at Hitsville to their satisfaction. The Detroit version became the released single. Ms. Kaye might appear in the film's score and soundtrack instead.

[theboyfromxtown]

Uptight

NOT on the soundtrack album

I have that.

[funkcity]

Its funny, I can remember going to a "Hideout" [[K of C Hall Clawson MI?) teen club in the 60s and hearing the Bob Seger band do their rendition of "I Was Made to Love Her". The bass player put a sponge or towel under his strings to get that Motown "dampened thump" bass sound. And Bob sang it quite well. This is the only Motown tune I ever heard in the burbs at that time.:)

But that song was and still is quite different than any of the Motown ilk. It was a country guitar lick with the bass doubling that hook lick. And the bass part was one of those shindig/boogaloo bass parts that Carol played all the time on the hits of the day.

But the biggie.... Did it sound like fingers or a pick??
She used a pick with felt under the strings and turned down the treble tone on her Fender Precision Bass.

Jamerson used old strings to get the thump and used his one "the hook" finger on his Fender Precision Bass..

But as always, the documentation of the day sucked.

But when I heard her perform that naked bass part recently I said you know she plays that exact part as it was on the hit. Now if she didn't perform the original then the only conclusion to be gleaned is that she learned the part and performed it just to mislead and unduly take credit for work not performed by her.

Do you really think she has ANY reason to stoop so low? She is a terrific educator and musician and feisty as hell. If she were a guy would this discussion go any differently. Back in the 60s it wouldn't have played. But what about now?

At the time my father was playing upright and electric bass in the motor city. He did not play for Motown. The industrial films, jazz gigs, WXYZ house band, jingles and shows were his. I asked him what he thought and I played him the IWMTLH track.

We parted ways on the opinion.
He said it was fingers
I said it was a pick
Go figure! :confused: