What's your thought on the Andantes replacing vocals on groups

[IMissFlo93]

http://ekladata.com/ag1AlK6DWthsg5gC3YTTDGrwFiQ@608x467.jpg




They may be unsung, but they sure suckered us into buying a Four Tops, Martha and the Vandellas, Marvelettes, and worst of all *GASP* a Supremes record.


What's your thoughts on this? Should have this false advertising happened in Motown?

Louvain could give us some input if she's available.

[daviddh]

It's still being done.i did have an issue with the label reading DRATS but it being the Andantess. False advertising.
adding them for additional vocals is one thing but misleading the public is another.they lied to us

[Philles/Motown Gary]

We've covered this a thousand times before. It's a heated topic that only stirs up anger. Why do we keep going there?

In defense of The Andantes, they didn't "sucker" anybody into buying anything.
That was all Motown's doings. And why not? Phil Spector used The Blossoms, Nino Tempo, Sonny, Cher, and whoever else happened to be in the studio as his back-up singers on his Philles sessions at Gold Star. Regardless of the group name [[The Crystals or The Ronettes), the back-up singers were whomever was available. I've read that the only member of The Crystals on the iconic "A Christmas Gift For You From Philles Records" was Lala Brooks. Barbara, Mary, Pat, and Dee Dee weren't even present. With all of that glorious sound, who cares? You would't be able to pick out their voices even if they had been present.

Motown hired The Andantes to sing back-up vocals at the recording sessions, and that's exactly what the girls did. They were professional and highly-talented singers. The Motown producers utilized their harmonies because they made Motown records sound great and classy -- ions ahead of the back-up vocalists on other record labels. Not only that, The Andantes were quick learners. The producers would show them what they wanted, and the girls would nail it in one or two takes -- unlike some of the groups who would take forever to learn their parts. In a 24-hour, around-the-clock production line like Motown, time was of the essence. The Andantes' expert talent even allowed them to create the back-up vocal arrangements on the spot. When the recordings were finished, mixed, and released, the final product sent Motown releases to the top of the charts. And the world loved it! Most people at the time were none the wiser until the behind-the-scenes Motown books came out in the '80s. I'll admit, I was surprised at the time to learn that the back-up vocals were not the actual group members, but, rather, The Andantes. But I sure wasn't angry about it, nor did I feel tricked nor gypped. Why would I? The Andantes were an important ingredient of The Motown Sound which made ALL of the groups at Motown sound amazing! Now, if Motown had replaced the back-up vocals of The Supremes, Vandellas, and Marvelettes with crappy, untalented singers, I would have been pissed. Who wouldn't? But that was never the case. Motown gave us product that was top of the line. The Andantes were a blessing in disguise. When I found out it was The Andantes doing all of that work, my only reaction was, "Aha! So THAT'S why Motown's girl groups always sounded so consistently good!"

I know that some folks are still feeling miffed and cheated, which is their prerogative, but don't blame The Andantes for it. They merely were a part of Motown's master plan, and it worked beautifully.

[marv2]

http://ekladata.com/ag1AlK6DWthsg5gC3YTTDGrwFiQ@608x467.jpg




They may be unsung, but they sure suckered us into buying a Four Tops, Martha and the Vandellas, Marvelettes, and worst of all *GASP* a Supremes record.


What's your thoughts on this? Should have this false advertising happened in Motown?

Louvain could give us some input if she's available.

I have never bought a record in my life because the Andantes were singing on it. We didn't even know who they were when I was growing up. I look at them as accompaniment but not on the same level as the legendary Funk Brothers.

[StuBass1]

Record company wants to put the best product on the market as possible. The record company virtually owns the product and can market it however they choose. Many records are not by the artists listed on the label... Young Holt Unlimited...remember the instrumental Soulful Strut? The track was cut by trio of studio musicians for a Barbara Acklin vocal and Eldee Young and Isaac "Redd" Holt [[Ramsey Lewis alums) were supposedly nowhere near the studio when the track was cut...and then the track was used as an instrumental that became a huge hit ..so they got Young and Holt, replaced their pianist Don Walker with Ken Cheney and toured as Young Holt Unlimited as the trio representing the record...

[StuBass1]

Sometimes record company's eliminate certain artists as they prefer to market the group the other way... Tony Orlando's group Dawn actually consisted of THREE female singers on their recordings and even tracks for their television show... Telma Hopkins, Joyce Vincent, and Pam Vincent [[Joyces sister and singing partner)...For touring and the television show...they decided to put just Telma and Joyce onstage, although sister Pam continued recording with the ensemble and Joyce and Pam still work together often today, while also doing individual projects... Probably just easier to work with two Dawns instead of three, or maybe Joyce and Telma were just a better fit for the routines they were dong on stage...

[PeaceNHarmony]

I don't like it. It's fraud. The public was lead to believe they were buying records by which-so-ever group, but they weren't. It's Milli Vanilli writ large. I have read all the rationalistic 'reasons' for decades and still don't buy them. Motown committed fraud.

[PeaceNHarmony]

I don't like it. It's fraud. The public was lead to believe they were buying records by which-so-ever group, but they weren't. It's Milli Vanilli writ large. I have read all the rationalistic 'reasons' for decades and still don't buy them. If Mary or whoever could not sing well enough to match their group's lead singer they should have been replaced. I don't assign any blame whatsoever to the Andantes ladies. Motown committed fraud.

[thanxal]

It has taken me many years to get over the fact that the Andantes are on many “golden era” Motown singles. My first reaction is, like PNH, this is “fraud”. But then came Stop!. When I listened to the original version without the Andantes and the released single with them, I have to admit, the single with them on it is better than the DMF version without them. At the end of the day, you’re buying the song, not the artists.

I also think we need to make a distinction between first order background singers who are integral parts of a group, such as Mary and Florence, who are always present in a live show, and second order background singers such as the Andantes and Blossoms. First order background singers are listed and in the line-up. Second order background singers give the song richness and depth, but could be interchanged with any other background singer with little to no effect. This is not to say the Andantes could be easily changed out in this fashion. They clearly were great artists who understood the “Motown Sound” but still, they were not integral to any one group.

So while it does irk me that there is a fraud involved, I must admit that without the Andantes, my favorite Motown songs would not sound the same or even close to the same. Let’s admit that they were there, they added needed depth, and that without them the song wouldn’t have been the same. Really, in the end, what is the harm done? Do you enjoy the song less because the Andantes are on it and not acknowledged?

[marv2]

I have never viewed Mary Wilson or Florence Ballard as "background" singers. They were the faces and yep voices of the Supremes. I think too big of a deal is being made about the Andantes adding to the harmonies on recordings. No one bitches about the fact that MOST of the Motown acts did not play an instrument on any of their recordings and that was done by the Funk Brothers. True, most of Motown's best known artists were vocalists and that is what you got when you saw them live and in concert. I don't recall a show being stopped and cancelled because an Andante wasn't up on the stage singing. Too much of a big is being made over their work. I heard that the Andantes were interchangeable and that often other session singers were used, along with them to pump up the background on some recordings.

[Soulmusic4life]

Their harmonies were way better than any other tamale group. The harmonies were soaring and soulful.

[Fullfillingnessfirstfinale]

As I discovered The Motown Sound I was impressed about it and The Supremes too. Then I research more and more about the backrounds, who sang what and then came the dissapointments. And then comes the question real dissapointments ? It´s right the songs are very good and amazing. I love "Discover me" and "Hey Western Union Man", we must say, we have here Diana with The other Supremes and in comparison with "I´ll set you free" amazing vocals form the original DRATS - they can sing, no question. IMHO the Andantes are connected with the girl groups, they a part of them. The groups are defined of the lead singer, so we had several solutions, only use single names like Diana Ross or Martha Reeves or The Andantes were nameless, only a group, then maybe we had lesser dissapointments.

I think you have to understood it from another side - from The Andantes side maybe!

The Andantes are ressponsible to make a lot of tracks of The Four Tops amazing and breathless. I enjoy the few records of the Temps too.

You´re right, when you say Phil Spector uses this technical too, but I think he wasn´t so big as Motown, I don´t know it exactly, I am too young ;-)

[phil]

I have never bought a record in my life because the Andantes were singing on it. We didn't even know who they were when I was growing up. I look at them as accompaniment but not on the same level as the legendary Funk Brothers.

I agree, even if the Andantes embellished and improved recordings with their harmonies people bought records mainly for the artists. For me the Andantes were just [[huge) icing on the cake.

[PeaceNHarmony]

Interesting to bring up Spector. I would largely continue my thought of fraud with his productions, though there may be a slight difference or two. His Wall of Sound productions rather required extra singers to create the large, massed backing vocals so I'll give Spector a pass there. But if Ronnie was the only Ronette on, say, 'Walking In The Rain' in the same way that Diana is the only Supreme on, say, LC, for me the billing on the label is fraudulent.

[westgrandboulevard]

Hi PNH...

I always enjoy your posts, but do feel that your use of the word 'fraud' in this context seems a bit harsh, to the point of being unrealistic?

Hasn't there always been a difference in show business, between stage performances and records?

Some artists come alive on stage. They are natural artists and performers.
Group members known to the public at any time are principally those who actually appear on stage, or for personal appearances, and who also are shown in group photos.

Any techniques which can be used in the recording studio to then enhance said singer or group's appeal are considered a legitimate procedure within the industry. The record companies are in the business of selling the records as a finished product, so will want to maximise their potential.

In contrast, some artists are most well known and represented simply by their recordings. They do not have the same stage presence as those in the first category, and often enjoy a shorter career. These artists may be talented, but their appearances more heavily rely on lighting gimmicks, additional dancers, etc., to enhance their appeal.

[[I can quickly think of several examples which fall within each category, even within Motown, but I'm not going there :))

Wouldn't it be fraud only if Ronnie or Diana were then to receive royalties from the records sold where their voices were recorded with session singers, but not the other members from their group? The lead voices effectively represent groups both on recordings and on stage, in order to maintain sales. The other Ronettes and Supremes would normally have received royalties from record sales generated by the lead singer, even if their own voices did not, for various reasons, feature on the recordings.

Was it fraud when the girl singers invariably used wigs on stage and in public appearances, to maintain best appearances under busy schedules?

Was it fraud when they used heavy make-up, foundation, and false eyelashes, to improve their looks under the lights?

Was it fraud that their dresses were padded out, or carefully cut, in order to improve their figures?

Was it fraud if the voice of Connie Francis, for example, and many of her contemporaries, was double-tracked on records to enhance the sound, which she then had no hope of replicating when singing live on stage?

It would be seem that the object was to present everyone involved to best effect.

I would contend that the word fraud is more applicable to financial matters?

In this particular context of session singers, it seems everyone was paid.

There are only two words which seem appropriate : Show, and Business.

If the entertainment values involved do not directly relate to one of those words, they relate to the other.

And very often, both. :)

[marv2]

Excellent post Westgrandboulevard with excellent supporting examples. Thank you!

[StuBass1]

As I discovered The Motown Sound I was impressed about it and The Supremes too. Then I research more and more about the backrounds, who sang what and then came the dissapointments. And then comes the question real dissapointments ? It´s right the songs are very good and amazing. I love "Discover me" and "Hey Western Union Man", we must say, we have here Diana with The other Supremes and in comparison with "I´ll set you free" amazing vocals form the original DRATS - they can sing, no question. IMHO the Andantes are connected with the girl groups, they a part of them. The groups are defined of the lead singer, so we had several solutions, only use single names like Diana Ross or Martha Reeves or The Andantes were nameless, only a group, then maybe we had lesser dissapointments.

I think you have to understood it from another side - from The Andantes side maybe!

The Andantes are ressponsible to make a lot of tracks of The Four Tops amazing and breathless. I enjoy the few records of the Temps too.

You´re right, when you say Phil Spector uses this technical too, but I think he wasn´t so big as Motown, I don´t know it exactly, I am too young ;-)
Spector was at least as big and significant as any Motown production unit...His "Wall of Sound" changed pop music, and not just Spector...but other L.A. producers Motown aficionado's might not be as familiar with like Brian Wilson, Lou Adler and Herb Alpert, Bones Howe, Jimmy Bowen, Mike Post and others...every bit as commercially successful as Motown stalwarts like HDH, Smokey, Frank Wilson, Norman Whitfield and others...Even Berry Gordy ultimately brought his company to Los Angeles, using many of the same facilities and musicians as Spector used...taking nothing away from the legendary Funk Brothers...Gordy was even using many of those same musicians during Motown's 60's heyday, having some of his tracks cut in L.A. and shipped back to Detroit...

[StuBass1]

Hi PNH...

I always enjoy your posts, but do feel that your use of the word 'fraud' in this context seems a bit harsh, to the point of being unrealistic?

Hasn't there always been a difference in show business, between stage performances and records?

Some artists come alive on stage. They are natural artists and performers.
Group members known to the public at any time are principally those who actually appear on stage, or for personal appearances, and who also are shown in group photos.

Any techniques which can be used in the recording studio to then enhance said singer or group's appeal are considered a legitimate procedure within the industry. The record companies are in the business of selling the records as a finished product, so will want to maximise their potential.

In contrast, some artists are most well known and represented simply by their recordings. They do not have the same stage presence as those in the first category, and often enjoy a shorter career. These artists may be talented, but their appearances more heavily rely on lighting gimmicks, additional dancers, etc., to enhance their appeal.

[[I can quickly think of several examples which fall within each category, even within Motown, but I'm not going there :))

Wouldn't it be fraud only if Ronnie or Diana were then to receive royalties from the records sold where their voices were recorded with session singers, but not the other members from their group? The lead voices effectively represent groups both on recordings and on stage, in order to maintain sales. The other Ronettes and Supremes would normally have received royalties from record sales generated by the lead singer, even if their own voices did not, for various reasons, feature on the recordings.

Was it fraud when the girl singers invariably used wigs on stage and in public appearances, to maintain best appearances under busy schedules?

Was it fraud when they used heavy make-up, foundation, and false eyelashes, to improve their looks under the lights?

Was it fraud that their dresses were padded out, or carefully cut, in order to improve their figures?

Was it fraud if the voice of Connie Francis, for example, and many of her contemporaries, was double-tracked on records to enhance the sound, which she then had no hope of replicating when singing live on stage?

It would be seem that the object was to present everyone involved to best effect.

I would contend that the word fraud is more applicable to financial matters?

In this particular context of session singers, it seems everyone was paid.

There are only two words which seem appropriate : Show, and Business.

If the entertainment values involved do not directly relate to one of those words, they relate to the other.

And very often, both. :)
All good points...

[Boogiedown]

Seems like the water is being muddied here. I suspect most can accept the using of the Andantes to enhance/enrich the depth of the vocals on a record. Kind of standard fare.

What the threads asks though is , what are your thoughts on The Andantes REPLACING vocals on groups? That's a more serious scenario.

When The Supremes appear on television shows pretending their voices are on the records when they aren't, that is fraud , plain and simple.

It would be akin to finding out Jimi Hendrix didn't actually play the guitar on his records.
That's the point of Jimi Hendricks, his guitar playing, and that's the point of The Supremes , singing back-up [[and I think back-up is the right word) to Diana Ross .

I suppose if transparency were the goal, the records should've been labeled
Diana Ross And The "Supremes".

[StuBass1]

So I imagine that virtually every record by a band that the Wrecking Crew performed on was a fraud too???... It was generally the Wrecking Crew who were the studio musicians on recordings by Beach Boys, The Association, The Grass Roots, The Byrds, Herb Alpert & The Tijuana Brass, Gary Lewis & The Playboys most of whom freely admitted that they could not do the job in the studio that the instrumental "masters" could...and so any more. It's the difference in presentation of recordings and the touring acts... Obviously, the Andantes, while most would say were vocally tighter as a vocal ensemble to the Supremes backup capabilities [[as good as they were and capable to do live performances), but couldn't come close as to their stage look, stage moves, etc... Go with the best you've got. The unfortunate part is that the Andantes weren't compensated for the recordings as the other Supremes were...

[Boogiedown]

so you are perfectly fine with no Supremes actually being on a record labeled "The Supremes"?

[bradsupremes]

I don't have a problem so much with Motown using the Andantes on records. I personally love the Andantes and their sound. They had incredible harmonies and they don't get the recognition in the industry for how amazing they were. It's a shame their story was left out of 20 Feet From Stardom nor were they mentioned in Standing In The Shadows Of Motown, although that was always focused on just the Funk Brothers.

My issue is that Motown decided around 1967 that they were basically going to do away with using any of the female group members on the recordings and just replace them all with the Andantes. The Andantes also lost their own sound and began to sound bland so that all Supremes, Vandellas, Marvelettes recordings sounded generic. The only thing different was the lead singer. In turn, these groups lost their unique sound and that hurt them in the market. I think if Motown had continued to use Mary & Cindy, Roz & Lois, Kat & Ann on their groups records and supplemented the Andantes for a fuller sound, I think it would have preserved each group's unique sound and would have enhanced the recordings.

[StuBass1]

so you are perfectly fine with no Supremes actually being on a record labeled "The Supremes"?
Honestly...in the final analysis..."The Supremes" brand was under contract to Motown and The Supremes were whatever Motown wanted them to be... Now if someone had appeared on stage claiming to be Diana Ross...that's another matter..

[arr&bee]

Haaaaaaaaaaaaaaa...whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat i never gave it a second thought it was and is still great music..all of a sudden it's fraud?????? What the hell??????

[jobeterob]

It’s been said before - all that was vital in these recordings be they Supremes Vandellas Miracles or Pips, was the lead singer

I agree with brad that a certain sound got sacrificed by about 1967

But the controversy has reduced the recognition that the Andantes got and their use has reduced the recognition of Miracles Pips Vandellas but especially Supremes - all in favour of their lead singers

[marv2]

Haaaaaaaaaaaaaaa...whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat i never gave it a second thought it was and is still great music..all of a sudden it's fraud?????? What the hell??????

Exactly. The Andantes did not do all the vocals. LOL!!!!

[Boogiedown]

conclusion :
anybody can sing on a "Diana Ross & The Supremes" record , and as long as it sounds good who cares who it is or who it isn't.
:rolleyes:

[[ & as long as its actually Diana Ross.)

[mowsville]

There was only one Beatle on Yesterday...should the label of read "The Beatle" instead of "The Beatles"?...who really cares....Its the music we love .

[marv2]

conclusion :
anybody can sing on a "Diana Ross & The Supremes" record , and as long as it sounds good who cares who it is or who it isn't.
:rolleyes:

[[ & as long as its actually Diana Ross.)

Remember to ask her about the single, "The Boss" and Valerie Simpson..............

[Boogiedown]

Remember to ask her about the single, "The Boss" and Valerie Simpson..............

You just got my attention Marv. I'm all ears!!

[marv2]

You just got my attention Marv. I'm all ears!!

If you are all ears, then listen to the record closely and then go listen to Diana "try" to sing it live! That is all I am going to say about THAT! LOL
!!!!

[Boogiedown]

muddying the water.

[Jimi LaLumia]

fraud? you folks are funny sometimes..fraud is an indication of a crime being committed causing loss or damage of some sort [[brain damage does not count) The Supremes was a concept sold by a record manufacturing company selling a product; the original concept featured four pictured members; did the 'fraud' begin when they cut down to three? I would think so...if there was actual 'fraud'..welcome to show biz

[jobeterob]

This is why the public only knows one Supreme - because it didn’t matter

And one Miracle and Vandella and pip

But we still loved the whole group

[Boogiedown]

fraud? you folks are funny sometimes..fraud is an indication of a crime being committed causing loss or damage of some sort [[brain damage does not count) The Supremes was a concept sold by a record manufacturing company selling a product; the original concept featured four pictured members; did the 'fraud' begin when they cut down to three? I would think so...if there was actual 'fraud'..welcome to show biz

fraud can mean that.

but it can also mean:







>>>> a person or thing intended to deceive others, typically by unjustifiably claiming or being credited with accomplishments or qualities.<<<<<





synonyms:
impostor, fake, sham, pretender, hoodwinker, masquerader, charlatan, quack, mountebank; swindler, fraudster, racketeer, cheat, cheater, double-dealer, trickster, confidence trickster;
informalphoney, con man, con artist;
datedconfidence man
"they exposed him as a fraud"



sham, hoax, imitation, copy, dummy, mock-up;
fake, forgery, counterfeit;
informalphoney, dupe
"the report is a fraud"

[thanxal]

fraud can mean that.

but it can also mean:







>>>> a person or thing intended to deceive others, typically by unjustifiably claiming or being credited with accomplishments or qualities.<<<<<





synonyms:
impostor, fake, sham, pretender, hoodwinker, masquerader, charlatan, quack, mountebank; swindler, fraudster, racketeer, cheat, cheater, double-dealer, trickster, confidence trickster;
informalphoney, con man, con artist;
datedconfidence man
"they exposed him as a fraud"



sham, hoax, imitation, copy, dummy, mock-up;
fake, forgery, counterfeit;
informalphoney, dupe
"the report is a fraud"



Also, “fraud” doesn’t have to rise to its legal definition [[monetary damages) to still be fraud. If you market ice cream as premium chocolate, vanilla and strawberry, but it is actually chocolate, vanilla and strawberry ice milk, that’s fraud. Simply put, you can’t say one thing [[Supremes = DMF) and then sell another [[Supremes = DMF +/- Andantes) and not have it rise to the definition of fraud. Simply because everyone else was doing the same or worse also does not negate the fact that Motown committed minor acts of fraud in its marketing of the groups.

Edit: the case of the Four Tops is worse. Motown created a sound on vinyl that could not be reproduced live in concert. I guess the statute of limitations has passed, but any concert go-er who saw a Tops show could sue for fraud. The sound they expected to hear, and the sound marketed to them, was not the sound they got at the concert. There is a reasonable expectation that the listener will not be deceived when they purchased tickets. The fact that most Tops records have seven people singing on them and only four in concert, with no disclaimer of the difference, is text book fraud. Maybe there was a disclaimer on the tickets, but I doubt it.

[marv2]

Anyone that believes the Four Tops needed the Andantes or anyone else is kidding no one but themselves!

https://soulfuldetroit.com/showthread.php?23644-Four-Tops-Tonight-I-m-Gonna-Love-You-All-Over[[acapella)

[StuBass1]

Marv...Just as an example...Can you imagine 7 Rooms Of Gloom or Bernadette WITHOUT The Andantes???...Would have been different songs with different attitudes that missed the not so subtle emphasis in coordination with The Funk Brothers... That's what producers do...embellish every aspect of a song to garner a feeling, and on many Tops [[and other artists songs)...the background vocals were well thought out and integral to the song... Rooms of Gloom had those eerie voices in registers the guys could never come close to and the Andantes are much more prominent that the other Tops...... Same with Bernadette. Those are more than songs...They are complete, masterful productions...Tell me this would have been anywhere near the finished product without the ladies who performed on 16 Four Tops songs alone... Perhaps they should have been known as the SEVEN Tops [[LOL)???... https://youtu.be/lSZsm2EBoLE

[thanxal]

Anyone that believes the Four Tops needed the Andantes or anyone else is kidding no one but themselves!

https://soulfuldetroit.com/showthread.php?23644-Four-Tops-Tonight-I-m-Gonna-Love-You-All-Over[[acapella)
Then why are they there? And not just one song either?

[StuBass1]

These are not the Tops hitting the top...Not even close...… Of course the Tops are legendary performers and artists and according to everyone I know whose ever worked with them...the most professional group of artists they've ever been associated with...but these record projects would have a much different sound and attitude without the Andantes doing what they did... Records are like life...you get just one shot at a great first impression [[or your record sinks) ...so you give the project your very best effort and ideas... https://youtu.be/Sb7ejgJHlP0

[sup_fan]

It’s been said before - all that was vital in these recordings be they Supremes Vandellas Miracles or Pips, was the lead singer

I agree with brad that a certain sound got sacrificed by about 1967

But the controversy has reduced the recognition that the Andantes got and their use has reduced the recognition of Miracles Pips Vandellas but especially Supremes - all in favour of their lead singers

actually that's not totally true. in very, very few instances were any of the men replaced by background singers. yes, in some cases the andantes were added to male group records, most notably on the Four Tops. But almost never were Duke, Obie and Lawrence replaced by, say, the Contours or the Spinners. Same with the Miracles. Smokey didn't record without Bobby, Ronnie and Pete.

So why was it ok that the women background singers at motown were interchangeable but the male background singers were not?

[StuBass1]

actually that's not totally true. in very, very few instances were any of the men replaced by background singers. yes, in some cases the andantes were added to male group records, most notably on the Four Tops. But almost never were Duke, Obie and Lawrence replaced by, say, the Contours or the Spinners. Same with the Miracles. Smokey didn't record without Bobby, Ronnie and Pete.

So why was it ok that the women background singers at motown were interchangeable but the male background singers were not?

Interesting question... I'd assume that quite frankly...while the male groups often needed higher register voices like the Andantes to bring home the concept, balance and brighten the sound to suit am radio...most had the male voices pretty well covered, although it was not unheard of at Motown for a producer on a male group to see one or more of the Originals for example hanging around and ask them to join in on the vocal track to add something as I've heard before...but not to the extent of adding female voices. As for the girl groups... I don't think there was much of an idea to add masculinity to those records to lower the vocal register on the overall sound, as the bass guitar and bari sax held down the low end on virtually every Motown record and the 3 guitar backbeats brought the fidelity back up, but using the Andantes as more a function of the just being better singers with greater ranges than the actual group members... the best female singers at the company...The Andantes sang on at least 8 Supremes songs, 12 Vandellas songs, 14 Marvelettes tracks...in addition to the Tempts, Tops, and solo vocal projects. They were the best around for what they did... Just not stage material...

[jobeterob]

Your knowledge shows Stu

I don’t think this was that big a deal - the producer got the sound they wanted

I don’t think you could sue for the price of a Four Tops concert ticket either - you got the Tops as you did the Supremes

All these people were involved in some pretty exciting, history making times

However the Andantes were not really properly recognized and I think it has hurt the recognition of group members other than the lead singers

[PeaceNHarmony]

fraud? you folks are funny sometimes..fraud is an indication of a crime being committed causing loss or damage of some sort [[brain damage does not count) The Supremes was a concept sold by a record manufacturing company selling a product; the original concept featured four pictured members; did the 'fraud' begin when they cut down to three? I would think so...if there was actual 'fraud'..welcome to show bizNo, Jimi - the fraud of which I speak is in selling records branded by a name when in fact other singers are on the record. For me it's as simple as that! I guess what JRob is saying has its truth: only the lead singers were those known to the public and it is/was only those wh0 mattered. But if 'Love Child' is being lip synced on Ed Sullivan and only the lead is miming a vocal she actually performed, in my thinking this is fraud. Anyhoo, the thread asked for opinions and I offered mine. Best to you.

[StuBass1]

No, Jimi - the fraud of which I speak is in selling records branded by a name when in fact other singers are on the record. For me it's as simple as that! I guess what JRob is saying has its truth: only the lead singers were those known to the public. But if 'Love Child' is being lip synced on Ed Sullivan and only the lead is miming a vocal she actually performed, in my thinking this is fraud. Anyhoo, the thread asked for opinions and I offered mine. Best to you.
Keep in mind that in those days...musicians weren't even credited for their performance... Same for background singers...not even enough room on the record labels to credit everyone involved in the project... If you look up those individual song titles on Wikipedia, or any other music site...you'll see that they do credit the musicians AND any vocal enhancements and who performed on the recordings...Remember The Monkees???... Sold millions of records and had their own television show...and the record producers insisted that the Wrecking Crew...NOT the Monkees played on the records... After ultimately insisting they play on their records and their producers hesitantly relented...their record sales coincidentally slipped... Remember The Archies… strictly a group of studio musicians who then recruited musicians to tour as The Archies...and even The Beatles [[and most other bands) used other musicians to enhance their recordings, like Billy Preston and others... Just the nature of the business in an effort to make the records sound as good as possible. The records are what gave those groups much needed touring, concert, and appearance income... As I previously stated...those group are what the company's who have them under contract or who has rights to the name want them to be...In the immortal words of PT Barnum [[and the group Honeycone)…"One Monkey Don't Stop No Show"???......

[marv2]

Marv...Just as an example...Can you imagine 7 Rooms Of Gloom or Bernadette WITHOUT The Andantes???...Would have been different songs with different attitudes that missed the not so subtle emphasis in coordination with The Funk Brothers... That's what producers do...embellish every aspect of a song to garner a feeling, and on many Tops [[and other artists songs)...the background vocals were well thought out and integral to the song... Rooms of Gloom had those eerie voices in registers the guys could never come close to and the Andantes are much more prominent that the other Tops...... Same with Bernadette. Those are more than songs...They are complete, masterful productions...Tell me this would have been anywhere near the finished product without the ladies who performed on 16 Four Tops songs alone... Perhaps they should have been known as the SEVEN Tops [[LOL)???... https://youtu.be/lSZsm2EBoLE

Can I imagine them without Andantes? Yeah! I've heard the Tops perform those songs live and in concert at least 30-35 times over the years and they were spectacular. They did not always sing "7 Rooms of Gloom", but they always performed "Bernadette" in concert. Here they are dancing and singing and sounding great live. Please note that they have 3 vocalists providing the harmonies. Groups like the Supremes and Martha and Vandellas had to go with just two vocalists which makes it quite difficult to achieve 3 part harmony live. So on some sessions there were session singers utilize to fill in some of the background.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFPSNIxh14g

[marv2]

Then why are they there? And not just one song either?

Because some producer wanted to use them. The Four Tops were capable of producing some of the tightest harmonies on Earth! Mary, Diana and Florence were just that good too. In the case of the Supremes when 3 three part harmony was desired and the producer did not have Diane join Mary and Flo on background, they would have to bring in other voices to achieve that sound.

I also don't think anyone would argue that songs like "Come See About Me" with just Mary and Flo on the backup sounded anything but terrific!

[marv2]

I always love to use this song as an example of just how great the Supremes were with their harmonies. The voices have character, sound pure and natural:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hoqtafi1Z2Q

[sup_fan]

another point is what i refer to as the "romanticism" of motown. as fans looking back decades later, we've built up myths about our favorite groups and songs. but the reality is Motown was making music for MONEY not for posterity. At the end of the day, the more songs and hits they released, the more money was made. so if they needed to utilize additional session singers in order to keep to a release schedule, then that's what they did.

Also most of the groups really had little to no input over their creative direction. it's not like the tempts sat around and charted out what content they wanted to sing, what themes they wanted present in their music, arrangements, etc. They didn't explore potential musical options and outlets with various producers. Occasionally the groups did - the temps did do some of the production work in terms of splitting up the lead lines on some of the psychedelic stuff. and the Pips did much of the production work on Grapevine themselves. but that's more a rarity.

the groups had little to no say as to what producer they were assigned, what songs they recorded, the mixing of those songs, what songs were selected for an album, the sequencing of tracks, etc.

In the 70s they begin to have a little more input on this but not much. the supremes didn't request that they work with Jimmy Webb or HDH. once assigned, they might have shared some ideas regarding whether they liked one song better than another. but that's about it.

[marv2]

Keep in mind that in those days...musicians weren't even credited for their performance... Same for background singers...not even enough room on the record labels to credit everyone involved in the project... If you look up those individual song titles on Wikipedia, or any other music site...you'll see that they do credit the musicians AND any vocal enhancements and who performed on the recordings...Remember The Monkees???... Sold millions of records and had their own television show...and the record producers insisted that the Wrecking Crew...NOT the Monkees played on the records... After ultimately insisting they play on their records and their producers hesitantly relented...their record sales coincidentally slipped... Remember The Archies… strictly a group of studio musicians who then recruited musicians to tour as The Archies...and even The Beatles [[and most other bands) used other musicians to enhance their recordings, like Billy Preston and others... Just the nature of the business in an effort to make the records sound as good as possible. The records are what gave those groups much needed touring, concert, and appearance income... As I previously stated...those group are what the company's who have them under contract or who has rights to the name want them to be...In the immortal words of PT Barnum [[and the group Honeycone)…"One Monkey Don't Stop No Show"???......

According to Quincy Jones, there are Beatles recordings where jazz session musicians were substituted for Ringo Starr and other members of the band.

[StuBass1]

According to Quincy Jones, there are Beatles recordings where jazz session musicians were substituted for Ringo Starr and other members of the band.
Totally believable. Ringo was really good for what he did...but had his limitations as well... Nothing about substituting musicians for recording sessions that is unusual...

[StuBass1]

Can I imagine them without Andantes? Yeah! I've heard the Tops perform those songs live and in concert at least 30-35 times over the years and they were spectacular. They did not always sing "7 Rooms of Gloom", but they always performed "Bernadette" in concert. Here they are dancing and singing and sounding great live. Please note that they have 3 vocalists providing the harmonies. Groups like the Supremes and Martha and Vandellas had to go with just two vocalists which makes it quite difficult to achieve 3 part harmony live. So on some sessions there were session singers utilize to fill in some of the background.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFPSNIxh14g

Look and listen close to the performance you posted... First of all...this was not record release quality...terrific to watch and listen too...but not release quality... Also notice that Levi is the ONLY singer with a mic and a chord, meaning that the other tops are likely lip syncing to previously recorded backing tracks [[virtually impossible to get studio quality backup OR lead vocals while dancing around with the adrenalin of a live show, and getting winded as most humans, regardless of what kind of shape they are in could pull off as Duke, Lawrence, and Obie are doing) , and yes...those high voices we are used to on the recordings are not there and absolutely a missing element, just as unlike the record on Bernadette...in this medley, Jamersons classic bassline [[that many people will tell you actually MADE the song) is just not there carrying the band track and few could recreate that line and when I saw the Tops live, those bassists didn't even TRY to play that same line...You have to listen closely to notice these things...As I'm sure you know...performing live and mastering a recording are two entirely different animals. Many of those groups performed live with 5 or 6 piece backing bands [[and sounded great in context).. .I'm sure you'd notice a huge difference if the Tops recorded with a combo backing them rather than the Funk Brothers and other musicians including horn and string players, and put on a great show...not even close to putting together a recording that people will sit and listen to, back in those days through a 2 inch transistor speaker or 4 inch car radio speaker on an am band [[that was not sonically geared to lower range voices and higher voices were often needed to brighten up the sound) that in most cases that had to be immaculately produced and engineered to sound GOOD, regardless of the basic song, material, or group... with no visual stimulation or enhancement and base the record primarily on sonic quality... Producing a recording and performing live on stage with the visuals you describe as an enhancement are two ENTIRELY different animals...

[Philles/Motown Gary]

Marv...Just as an example...Can you imagine 7 Rooms Of Gloom or Bernadette WITHOUT The Andantes???...Would have been different songs with different attitudes that missed the not so subtle emphasis in coordination with The Funk Brothers... That's what producers do...embellish every aspect of a song to garner a feeling, and on many Tops [[and other artists songs)...the background vocals were well thought out and integral to the song... Rooms of Gloom had those eerie voices in registers the guys could never come close to and the Andantes are much more prominent that the other Tops...... Same with Bernadette. Those are more than songs...They are complete, masterful productions...Tell me this would have been anywhere near the finished product without the ladies who performed on 16 Four Tops songs alone... Perhaps they should have been known as the SEVEN Tops [[LOL)???... https://youtu.be/lSZsm2EBoLE

The Seven Tops! LOL!!! All good points, Stu! And, what's more, it's been written that The Andantes enjoyed recording with the Four Tops, and the Four Tops loved having The Andantes on their records! I'll bet they had no idea at the time they were committing fraud which some people, 50+ years later, would be accusing them of! Who knew?!!!

[StuBass1]

The Seven Tops! LOL!!! All good points, Stu! And, what's more, it's been written that The Andantes enjoyed recording with the Four Tops, and the Four Tops loved having The Andantes on their records! I'll bet they had no idea at the time they were committing fraud which some people, 50+ years later, would be accusing them of! Who knew?!!!
True... The top of the record labels said MOTOWN...That's who decided what appeared below...

[Boogiedown]

Although the discussion is interesting , The Four Tops do not belong in this topic, as obviously the all-female Andantes did not replace any of their vocals [[ which is the thread's topic) . As I think about it, The Andantes accompanied/added vocals to several groups , but if I'm not mistaken , the only group that they flat out vocally replaced [[at times) was The Supremes....[[?)

Out of curiosity though, were there any Four Tops recordings where somebody pretended to be one [[or more) of them by singing on their behalf ?
Or for that matter, were there songs recorded without all the members of the group being included ?

[marv2]

actually that's not totally true. in very, very few instances were any of the men replaced by background singers. yes, in some cases the andantes were added to male group records, most notably on the Four Tops. But almost never were Duke, Obie and Lawrence replaced by, say, the Contours or the Spinners. Same with the Miracles. Smokey didn't record without Bobby, Ronnie and Pete.

So why was it ok that the women background singers at motown were interchangeable but the male background singers were not?

Why? Because they wanted to achieve three-part harmony in the background. That's very difficult to do with just two backing vocalists. That is main reason. In other cases because the Andantes were always in town and available to do sessions. It had nothing to do with the ability of the group singers. The Marvelettes were a little rough when they were first starting out, but even they became smoother over time. The Originals were used on many of the solo male recordings for the background.

[marv2]

The Seven Tops! LOL!!! All good points, Stu! And, what's more, it's been written that The Andantes enjoyed recording with the Four Tops, and the Four Tops loved having The Andantes on their records! I'll bet they had no idea at the time they were committing fraud which some people, 50+ years later, would be accusing them of! Who knew?!!!

The Four Tops were all that were ever needed! It was the producer that wanted female voices included. Check this out:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=7&v=EchKggNRAhQ

[marv2]

Here is Martha Reeves backed by the REAL Vandellas and they sound superb. Now you can go on believe whatever is you want to believe. The groups sound best on the recordings to me. Session singers added some things, but overall they were pretty bland, colorless voices to my ears


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5k0GDQrK2jo

[marv2]

Look and listen close to the performance you posted... First of all...this was not record release quality...terrific to watch and listen too...but not release quality... Also notice that Levi is the ONLY singer with a mic and a chord, meaning that the other tops are likely lip syncing to previously recorded backing tracks [[virtually impossible to get studio quality backup OR lead vocals while dancing around with the adrenalin of a live show, and getting winded as most humans, regardless of what kind of shape they are in could pull off as Duke, Lawrence, and Obie are doing) , and yes...those high voices we are used to on the recordings are not there and absolutely a missing element, just as unlike the record on Bernadette...in this medley, Jamersons classic bassline [[that many people will tell you actually MADE the song) is just not there carrying the band track and few could recreate that line and when I saw the Tops live, those bassists didn't even TRY to play that same line...You have to listen closely to notice these things...As I'm sure you know...performing live and mastering a recording are two entirely different animals. Many of those groups performed live with 5 or 6 piece backing bands [[and sounded great in context).. .I'm sure you'd notice a huge difference if the Tops recorded with a combo backing them rather than the Funk Brothers and other musicians including horn and string players, and put on a great show...not even close to putting together a recording that people will sit and listen to, back in those days through a 2 inch transistor speaker or 4 inch car radio speaker on an am band [[that was not sonically geared to lower range voices and higher voices were often needed to brighten up the sound) that in most cases that had to be immaculately produced and engineered to sound GOOD, regardless of the basic song, material, or group... with no visual stimulation or enhancement and base the record primarily on sonic quality... Producing a recording and performing live on stage with the visuals you describe as an enhancement are two ENTIRELY different animals...

No it was not record release quality because it was a LIVE performance! Now, I am totally confident that they could have recorded those songs.......alone and they still would have been big hits! You heard the acapella example I posted of the Four Tops singing?

[marv2]

Here's another good example of what I was talking about. Was it necessary to add male voices to this record or was it due to a "sound" the producers were trying to achieve? It was a unique sound thing:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BbFDVWofYW4

[Philles/Motown Gary]

As I think about it, The Andantes accompanied/added vocals to several groups , but if I'm not mistaken , the only group that they flat out vocally replaced [[at times) was The Supremes....[[?)

No, John, The Andantes sometimes replaced not only The Supremes, but also at times The Vandellas and The Marvelettes, and, possibly, at times, The Velvelettes. If memory serves, there was a law in place requiring that at least one track per album contain the original members of the group. Other than that, the recordings were sometimes Martha Reeves & TheVandellas, Martha Reeves & The Vandellas AND The Andantes, or Martha Reeves & The Andantes. As long as the LP had one track with the real Vandellas, the remaining tracks could be either of the other two options. So, actually, Motown was operating within the law and there was nothing legally fraudulent about it.

[marv2]

No, John, The Andantes sometimes replaced not only The Supremes, but also at times The Vandellas and The Marvelettes, and, possibly, at times, The Velvelettes. If memory serves, there was a law in place requiring that at least one track per album contain the original members of the group. Other than that, the recordings were sometimes Martha Reeves & TheVandellas, Martha Reeves & The Vandellas AND The Andantes, or Martha Reeves & The Andantes. As long as the LP had one track with the real Vandellas, the remaining tracks could be either of the other two options. So, actually, Motown was operating within the law and there was nothing legally fraudulent about it.

It was not a law, but it was in the contracts at least for the Supremes that it was forbidden to replace any one of the members on recordings or in live concerts if the member was able and willing to perform on record or on stage. This is what got Motown in trouble legally when Mary Wilson sued them in 1977-78. She cited recordings made between 1968-69 when the group was called "Diana Ross & the Supremes". When the producer would use the Andantes on a complete record, that in essence was replacing a group member or members which was not allowed by their contracts.

[Philles/Motown Gary]

It was not a law, but it was in the contracts at least for the Supremes that it was forbidden to replace any one of the members on recordings or in live concerts if the member was able and willing to perform on record or on stage. This is what got Motown in trouble legally when Mary Wilson sued them in 1977-78. She cited recordings made between 1968-69 when the group was called "Diana Ross & the Supremes". When the producer would use the Andantes on a complete record, that in essence was replacing a group member or members which was not allowed by their contracts.
That may very well be true, Marv, but what I'm referring to was specifically pertaining to Motown album releases. Now that I think back, the topic at hand was The Marvelettes' "Return Of The Marvelettes" LP. It was originally intended as a Wanda Rogers' solo project with back-up vocals solely by The Andantes. When Motown decided to make it a Marvelettes' release instead, they had to include "Uptown" as a duplicate track from the previous Marvelettes' "In Full Bloom" album so that there would be at least one track on "Return Of" including real back-up Marvelettes. I don't recall whose rule that was, but it was a condition by which Motown had to abide. Oh, I think we were also talking about Martha & The Vandellas' "Tell Me I'll Never Be Alone" track from the "Watchout!" album which includes Vandellas and Andantes. Motown had to include it because the majority of remaining tracks on the album were Anantes only.
Does anyone else remember this rule that Motown had to satisfy?? StuBass?

[arr&bee]

Look all i can say is that i've seen most of the motown acts live, and although the andantes weren't there the groups sounded great without them.

[jobeterob]

Look all i can say is that i've seen most of the motown acts live, and although the andantes weren't there the groups sounded great without them.

Yep!

And they made the best records they could with the background singers they chose

[marv2]

That may very well be true, Marv, but what I'm referring to was specifically pertaining to Motown album releases. Now that I think back, the topic at hand was The Marvelettes' "Return Of The Marvelettes" LP. It was originally intended as a Wanda Rogers' solo project with back-up vocals solely by The Andantes. When Motown decided to make it a Marvelettes' release instead, they had to include "Uptown" as a duplicate track from the previous Marvelettes' "In Full Bloom" album so that there would be at least one track on "Return Of" including real back-up Marvelettes. I don't recall whose rule that was, but it was a condition by which Motown had to abide. Oh, I think we were also talking about Martha & The Vandellas' "Tell Me I'll Never Be Alone" track from the "Watchout!" album which includes Vandellas and Andantes. Motown had to include it because the majority of remaining tracks on the album were Anantes only.
Does anyone else remember this rule that Motown had to satisfy?? StuBass?

This is the first time I am hearing about this rule. I do know that I can count on one hand the number of number one hit records where the Andantes did all of the backgrounds on the record and none of the real group members.

[marv2]

Look all i can say is that i've seen most of the motown acts live, and although the andantes weren't there the groups sounded great without them.

Exactly! Most people outside of Motown had never heard of these session singers until Mary Wilson's 1986 book,"Dreamgirl, My Life As A Supreme".

[StuBass1]

No it was not record release quality because it was a LIVE performance! Now, I am totally confident that they could have recorded those songs.......alone and they still would have been big hits! You heard the acapella example I posted of the Four Tops singing?

Kinda my final on this...but I think most would agree that it's often subtleties that makes a decent record good...and a good recording great... Sounding "good to you" and having those extra elements are what makes hits... If not...who would need producers...just a songwriter, a vocal arranger, a band, and a group...Brian Wilson spent weeks and months perfecting tracks for his classic tracks, making subtle changes on parts that one not attuned would not even notice... like bringing cello musicians back to the studio day after day after day to just get the bowing patterns just right on Good Vibrations ...HDH were not just songwriters...they were Masters of production... That's why even things like stomping on the floor, hotel sheets, and slapping two pieces of wood together, things that many or most listeners would hardly notice to isolate if asked to describe the important features of a recording, played such an important role when utilized on Motown songs and were often credited with making a good tune a major hit. Same with the voices of the Andantes on the Tops recordings... MAJOR contribution in my opinion... Those recordings would not have sounded the same without them... Sounding good, and making a classic record are two different things. They would have sounded good without the Andantes on 7 Rooms of Gloom...and those female voices reaching mezzo soprano and even soprano to lend an effect and offset the lower end male singers made a HUGE difference that upon close examination...One can't dismiss the importance of production that upon close examination, those subconscious and subtle additions actually MAKE the record...much in the same way a Jamerson bassline or Mike Terry bari part can MAKE a record...It would have sounded "good enough" is NOT the standard any record producer worth his/her salt would be satisfied with...The best analogy I can give would be to say... that Escalade looked really good with the stock wheels and rims and I don't know why that guy needed to add those 22's with the low profiles...

[vgalindo]

If you are all ears, then listen to the record closely and then go listen to Diana "try" to sing it live! That is all I am going to say about THAT! LOL
!!!!
Here’s Diana Ross singing it live around the same time as the recording. Sounds good to me!!

https://youtu.be/1HnnWhANLjk

[Philles/Motown Gary]

Sounds great to me, too! Sing it, Diana!

[PeaceNHarmony]

It’s been said before - all that was vital in these recordings be they Supremes Vandellas Miracles or Pips, was the lead singer

I agree with brad that a certain sound got sacrificed by about 1967

But the controversy has reduced the recognition that the Andantes got and their use has reduced the recognition of Miracles Pips Vandellas but especially Supremes - all in favour of their lead singersI'm surprised that most of the members seem ... sanguine ... about their favorite non-lead singers appearing on the group recordings. To each, as they say. I've already given my opinion and won't repeat it again. But the fact that so many fans are not concerned that their individual non-leads did not appear on 'group' recordings does lend support to your theory to the relative lack of significance that individual group members had/have. Personally, I'm a Cindy B fan and I do feel defrauded that she did not sing on most of the post-Florence recordings. In the end it's a wonder now that the Milli V situation was such a scandal!

[jobucats]

My thought and opinion...Since the word ‘fraud’ is supposedly not welcomed by some, I’ll use the word ‘deception.’ In the case where a group, in addition to all of its members singing on the recording, I’ll give a 1/2 pass to displaying just the group’s name on the recording. When the background vocals are only the Andantes [[or other session voices), it’s deception [[really it’s fraud). I don’t care for the concept that the name of the group was owned by whoever; it’s still deceptive. When a group receives a music award for a particular song or project in which some of the members’ vocals were replaced, it’s fraud. As much as I love the talents of the Andantes, there were many recordings with the Tops in which their voices were actually distracting. Way too much! For me, the Motown sound began to kill of those roaches and burned those rags only to be replaced with cute poodle dogs and doilies made of the finest linen. Sign of the times for that era? Maybe; however, it was, in my opinion, a quick transition to squeaky clean and elaborately orchestrated arrangements.

[Sotosound]

To answer the original question, I didn't really focus on whether or not they were replacing Mary and Cindy etc. I just enjoyed what I heard. As a teenage record buyer, contracts, morals, legalities etc. weren't on my radar at all.

I did notice what sounded right to me, however. I first heard "Guess I'll Always Love You" by The Isley Brothers on the radio in its mono single mix, complete with The Andantes. Then I bought the "This Old Heart Of Mine" LP in mono and noticed that the backing vocals on the album version just weren't as good.

From my own personal experience, being in the record industry was like being in the lion's den. Enter at your peril.

So we can analyse and debate morality as much as we like over half a century later, but we have to keep the record industry's first commandment in mind when we do, and that is "Stitch up thy brother."

If you want morality and fairness then look elsewhere. That industry chewed up and spat out endless wannabes.

In the end, the music industry was all about product and not music. I was buying over 5M 7" singles annually for a record wholesaler, but those records could equally have been books, shoes or nuts and bolts. I just bought stuff that would sell.

Sad but true.

And that's why I ended up in IT!

[sup_fan]

Why? Because they wanted to achieve three-part harmony in the background. That's very difficult to do with just two backing vocalists. That is main reason. In other cases because the Andantes were always in town and available to do sessions. It had nothing to do with the ability of the group singers. The Marvelettes were a little rough when they were first starting out, but even they became smoother over time. The Originals were used on many of the solo male recordings for the background.

my point wasn't about the # of voices in the background. until 65, the Marvelettes had 3 background singers. plus to make a 3 part chord, you need, shock lol, 3 voices. if you have 2 background voices and 1 lead, each can sing a different note and achieve the 3-part that's desired. listen to Back in My Arms Again for a perfect example of this.

my point was that the male groups, for the vast majority of the time, did NOT replace their male background vocalists with other singers. the originals or the spinners or whichever men never/rarely subbed in for the Miracles or Tempts.

now for making a more full background sound, in the early to mid 60s it was certainly easier to bring in more singers rather than layer in multiple tracks of the group. like the Sups' Country Western & Pop. the released version has the added Andantes in the background. compare to the Unreleased 63 rendition of the songs.

[Boogiedown]

I'd like to hear more Sotosound !

This has been an informative thread. :cool: I'm kind of disappointed too that some seem so easily accepting that it doesn't matter who is actually singing. I'll stand by my position that if the record says "& The Supremes" and they ain't on it , it's fraud.

But as far as adding vocals to existing group vocals, I am ok with it, obviously there's a certain sound being reached for. When I hear female vocals on a Four Tops record, it is to add something , not substitute. When I hear a french horn on a Beatles record , I'm fairly certain that's not George Harrison giving it a blow! That's the point of studio recordings isn't it? To see how much you can tweak and enhance a recording to make it special. Otherwise we'd just release live recordings.
Oh , I was in error in trying to insist that The Four Tops didn't belong in the discussion. I was basing that on the thread's title. But I reread the original post, and IMissFlo brings them up there:o so I guess the conversation is meant to be broader than I understood.

Good stuff!!:cool:

[PeaceNHarmony]

The Four Tops did not 'announce' the name of their lead singer. I wonder if fans would accept it if a random singer had been brought in to make Four Tops records while the group was on tour?

[jobeterob]

I have to admit some of you are refreshing my memory.

I remember I was completely shocked finding out there was no Mary and Cindy on some of these songs.

I was completely blown out of the water to find as early as Run Run Run and Stop in the Name of Love, there were additional voices and some versions without Supremes, like the original 45.

I don't think any of this would qualify as legal fraud - but I do think fans were unpleasantly surprised, at least, when the news came out.

But as years have gone by and we've learned more and more about Motown, Phil Spector, the Beach Boys, the Beatles and heaven knows who else - and so I've just come to accept it [[and possibly relish the squirming it causes for some harsh personalities).

But I do not like what it may have done to the Andantes or Mary and Cindy. I notice Mary does not like to talk about it very much.

[sup_fan]

i'd be curious to learn just how much the groups complained back in the 60s about this. There's a story in Randy's book about Flo complaining about the A's being added to an early version of The Happening. not sure if that really happened or not.

Supposedly by the Scherrie years, Mary was not allowing other backing singers on the sup material. but that's after YEARS of allowing it.

So i wonder if the groups just went along with it while it was happening or if they complained, even in vain. or since they were getting the same money regardless, if they really didn't care at the time. And it's only due to hindsight that they're saying this wasn't the wisest idea

[jobeterob]

The Supremes sure wouldn't have been complaining around the time of the release of Run Run Run.

[thanxal]

There seems to be some confusion on this thread. No one has said the songs sound better or worse with unlisted background singers, nor did the singers/groups themselves commit deception or fraud. The issue is with Motown's lack of clarity on who sang on which records.

[PeaceNHarmony]

Certainly this thread has strayed FAARRR from the topic, as threads here usually do. Howwhoevertosay, I'm surprised that it's as contentious as it is. Outta this one!

[jobeterob]

It’s just a chat - they stray like any conversation

Midnight Johnny who was on here for years has had Louvain Demos on his show for a lengthy interview and she’s on Facebook I’m sure; I’m left with the memory that she feels the Andantes never got their due.

And I’m sure it didn’t do a lot for the confidence and ego’s of the replaced and added to singers

[Fullfillingnessfirstfinale]

Another interesting question for me personally, what were the relationships between each other ? The Andantes with Mary & Cindy, Roz & Betty or Ann & Kat. Were there harmonized or more a rivalry ?

[marv2]

This is all a non-issue. Most of the group members from these various groups ALSO were assigned to sing background on recordings by other artists like Marvin Gaye, Mary Wells, Barbara McNair, Brenda Holloway, etc. The Andantes were not the only ones to provide harmonies on Motown recordings. That tells me a lot!

[StuBass1]

This is all a none issue. Most of the group members from these various groups ALSO were assigned to sing background on recordings by other artists like Marvin Gaye, Mary Wells, Barbara McNair, Brenda Holloway. The Andantes were not the only one to provide harmonies on Motown recordings. That tells me a lot!

That is true...Motown being a "family" type organization, which I've mentioned before... would see singers hanging around and a producer could decide that he wanted to add some voices to a project going on in studio A and recruit singers, musicians, or even support people like hand clappers to come in and help with the session. That said... The Andantes and The Originals tended to be the "go to" guys when formal background voices were needed...

[marv2]

That is true...Motown being a "family" type organization, which I've mentioned before... would see singers hanging around and a producer could decide that he wanted to add some voices to a project going on in studio A and recruit singers, musicians, or even support people like hand clappers to come in and help with the session. That said... The Andantes and The Originals tended to be the "go to" guys when formal background voices were needed...

Right and also they were stationary there in Detroit.

[bradsupremes]

Another interesting question for me personally, what were the relationships between each other ? The Andantes with Mary & Cindy, Roz & Betty or Ann & Kat. Were there harmonized or more a rivalry ?

I don’t think there was a rivalry or any animosity. As Mary said when Jimmy Webb used the Blossoms on their recordings, she took it personally against the Supremes and not against the Blossoms. I assume that’s similar to the Andantes. Plus the Andantes in their book speak highly of the groups. I assume they got along and if ever there was any animosity it certainly doesn’t exist today.

[StuBass1]

Even Tony Orlando and Dawn originally released their first recordings, Candida and the huge hit Knock Three Times [[and an album), as "Dawn" since Tony didnt want to use his own name at the time. The Dawn singers were session singers, including Jay Siegel, formerly lead singer of the Tokens [[The Lion Sleeps Tonight) and the original Jay & The Americans and other groups, along with three east coast based female singers. When the songs became hits, Tony recruited Joyce, Telma, and Pam… even though the original Dawn were different singers... they understood that the record company and producers decided how the group would carry on and with which performers... I don't recall Siegel, Cynthia Weil, Linda November, or Tony Wine complaining [[or the people who bought the records or those who attended their tour shows based on those two other recordings, as everyone got paid for their work...

[marv2]

I don’t think there was a rivalry or any animosity. As Mary said when Jimmy Webb used the Blossoms on their recordings, she took it personally against the Supremes and not against the Blossoms. I assume that’s similar to the Andantes. Plus the Andantes in their book speak highly of the groups. I assume they got along and if ever there was any animosity it certainly doesn’t exist today.

Jean Terrell said that she did not even know that the Blossoms were even on the album! Oh well! LOL!

[marv2]

I don't think anyone else even cares about any of this.....but us! LOL!!!

[jobeterob]

Part of the reason this is such an issue is that it involved the most successful female group of all time and one of the most successful female singers of all time

[arr&bee]

As stated,berry would use whom ever was around in those days-contract on love-stevie wonder[i'm sure you can hear the temps in the background]born to love you-temps-[jimmy ruffin joined joined the group on this one]-not now i'll tell you later-temps-[the supremes including diana sang along too]...fraud??? No..music history being made-yes!!

[marv2]

Part of the reason this is such an issue is that it involved the most successful female group of all time and one of the most successful female singers of all time

It is a non-issue. It is only an "issue" to those that want to lessen the importance of individual group members. The records sold, case closed!

[marv2]

As stated,berry would use whom ever was around in those days-contract on love-stevie wonder[i'm sure you can hear the temps in the background]born to love you-temps-[jimmy ruffin joined joined the group on this one]-not now i'll tell you later-temps-[the supremes including diana sang along too]...fraud??? No..music history being made-yes!!

There was no fraud. The Four Tops backed up Stevie, Martha Reeves, The Supremes etc. The Supremes and Vandellas backed up Marvin Gaye, Smokey Robinson and the Miracles, Mary Wells, Barbara McNair, and others. I know Berry Gordy would not have signed any of these folks if they could not sing and sing well. Trying to make a big deal out of what certain producers did with certain recordings is a bit on the ridiculous side if we're being honest here. Heck, Marvin Gaye played the drums on some early sessions. What does that mean? There's no fraud involved here.

[detmotownguy]

It is a non-issue. It is only an "issue" to those that want to lessen the importance of individual group members. The records sold, case closed!

Exactly MArvin! Collectively or as an aggregate, however you look at it, The Supremes as a GROUP will always be the no 1 female group. I wonder if he purchased his Diana Ross blow up doll yet lol!

[luke]

I saw the Supremes and 4 Tops a number of times and they were sensational...not an Andante in sight. I would have loved to hear the distinctive voices of Mary and Cindy on Love Child and Someday. Did anyone ever consider those records may have sounded even BETTER?? We loved the groups not the Andantes. It also seemed stupid to me to replace group members on recordings ....Creating ill will as Katherine Anderson has said.

[marv2]

I saw the Supremes and 4 Tops a number of times and they were sensational...not an Andante in sight. I would have loved to hear the distinctive voices of Mary and Cindy on Love Child and Someday. Did anyone ever consider those records may have sounded even BETTER?? We loved the groups not the Andantes. It also seemed stupid to me to replace group members on recordings ....Creating ill will as Katherine Anderson has said.

We have all the proof we need of how good Mary Wilson and Cindy Birdsong sound together. For one example, just check out the harmonies on the "The Supremes" album from 1975.

[floyjoy678]

I saw the Supremes and 4 Tops a number of times and they were sensational...not an Andante in sight. I would have loved to hear the distinctive voices of Mary and Cindy on Love Child and Someday. Did anyone ever consider those records may have sounded even BETTER?? We loved the groups not the Andantes. It also seemed stupid to me to replace group members on recordings ....Creating ill will as Katherine Anderson has said.

There are several songs that I think would have sounded better with Mary and Cindy such as I'm Living In Shame, The Composer, etc. but with Love Child, I gotta go with the Andantes. Hearing Mary and Cindy perform the song live, I just dont think they sounded great compared to the Andantes. In fact I always thought Love Child live was the worst live rendition of all of the hits.

[bradsupremes]

There are several songs that I think would have sounded better with Mary and Cindy such as I'm Living In Shame, The Composer, etc. but with Love Child, I gotta go with the Andantes. Hearing Mary and Cindy perform the song live, I just dont think they sounded great compared to the Andantes. In fact I always thought Love Child live was the worst live rendition of all of the hits.

I agree. I never cared for any live rendition of "Love Child." Mary and Cindy just couldn't seem to get the hang of the pace of the song especially on "Wait, why you wait, now hold on." It always seemed like they were rushing it. They never fully could capture the rhythm and pace of it. It just seems off.

[vgalindo]

The Andantes were sensational on Love Child. I don’t think no one could have done it better! And the public loved it. Their biggest seller.

[floyjoy678]

I agree. I never cared for any live rendition of "Love Child." Mary and Cindy just couldn't seem to get the hang of the pace of the song especially on "Wait, why you wait, now hold on." It always seemed like they were rushing it. They never fully could capture the rhythm and pace of it. It just seems off.

You're right and also one thing that bothered me was there were several points of the song where the Andantes would harmonized where Mary and Cindy would sing in unison instead. It seemed sloppy and lazy. You'd think with them not being on the song, they'd try to replicate as best as they could.

[Philles/Motown Gary]

I, too, never liked the live version of "Love Child". The tempo is always taken at breakneck speed. It's a wonder that Diana, Mary, or Cindy could ever keep up vocally at that horrendous pace.

[marv2]

You're right and also one thing that bothered me was there were several points of the song where the Andantes would harmonized where Mary and Cindy would sing in unison instead. It seemed sloppy and lazy. You'd think with them not being on the song, they'd try to replicate as best as they could.

That would be hard for them to do with just two voices vs the three or four used in the studio.

[WaitingWatchingLookingForAChance]

You're right and also one thing that bothered me was there were several points of the song where the Andantes would harmonized where Mary and Cindy would sing in unison instead. It seemed sloppy and lazy. You'd think with them not being on the song, they'd try to replicate as best as they could.

I thought this thread was kinda treading old ground yet again, but there's something in this comment that IS kinda new, at least to me. For years, all I'd hear and read was the perception that the Marvelettes were the only female group at Motown to be subbed out by the Andantes. And the reasoning was that their harmonies weren't up to snuff. I always knew that was baloney, but with this thread and many others I've come across here over the years, I thought- AT LAST! People with ears and common sense! At last, it is becoming more and more common knowledge that the same thing happened with nearly as much frequency with The Vandellas and The Supremes. Interesting to read about Cindy and Mary singing singing in unison when performing "Love Child" live...

[StuBass1]

I thought this thread was kinda treading old ground yet again, but there's something in this comment that IS kinda new, at least to me. For years, all I'd hear and read was the perception that the Marvelettes were the only female group at Motown to be subbed out by the Andantes. And the reasoning was that their harmonies weren't up to snuff. I always knew that was baloney, but with this thread and many others I've come across here over the years, I thought- AT LAST! People with ears and common sense! At last, it is becoming more and more common knowledge that the same thing happened with nearly as much frequency with The Vandellas and The Supremes. Interesting to read about Cindy and Mary singing singing in unison when performing "Love Child" live...
I too thought this was finished...but let the games carry on. The Motown girl groups succeeded largely on the basis of how they presented themselves before America to compliment the recordings released by the company which moved Motown beyond a regional record company buttonholed largely on the R&B charts... This is why the Philly artists didn't enjoy the widespread acclaim and longevity as did the Motown artists, despite the fact that the Philly product was arguably just as good...just not the same level of crossover acclaim and not as familiar in the mainstream media of television, film, and widespread culture as was the Motown brand...Obviously, the terrific Motown songs and tracks were great, and the identifiable lead singers were easily recognizable and outstanding. That said...with some of the groups, particularly the girl groups... their physical appearance and image [[as evidenced by the close attention from Maxine Powell)was largely what sold them to the American public. Diana Ross on the Ed Sullivan show backed by The Andantes dressed in gowns would not have worked, and some of those songs recorded without the Andantes would not have worked either, at least not as well... The Andante's had the best voices and harmonization's of any of the female singers at Motown by far [[and that includes The Supremes, The Vandellas, and The Marvelettes) and lent high end harmonies to some of the male groups as a balance. Lead singing and background work are two entirely different things. So is recording and performing on stage... At this stage, why anyone would second guess the legendary Motown producers, how they put their projects together, and the undeniable success of their product is puzzling, other than some folks who just don't understand the business and somehow seem insulted that the harsh reality of the music business is not what they perceived or wish to believe... Berry Gordy was in it to make money and succeed with the groups he virtually created and using the names he held the rights to use as he wished to give all the people he was responsible for the greatest chance for success...not to placate the erroneous fantasies from fans as to how the industry is supposed to operate...

[Philles/Motown Gary]

I too thought this was finished...but let the games carry on. The Motown girl groups succeeded largely on the basis of how they presented themselves before America to compliment the recordings released by the company which moved Motown beyond a regional record company buttonholed largely on the R&B charts... This is why the Philly artists didn't enjoy the widespread acclaim and longevity as did the Motown artists, despite the fact that the Philly product was arguably just as good...just not the same level of crossover acclaim and not as familiar in the mainstream media of television and film as was the Motown brand...Obviously, the terrific Motown songs and tracks were great, and the identifiable lead singers were easily identifiable and outstanding. That said...with some of the groups, particularly the girl groups... their physical appearance and image [[as evidenced by the close attention from Maxine Powell)was largely what sold them to the American public. Diana Ross on the Ed Sullivan show backed by The Andantes dressed in gowns would not have worked, and some of those songs recorded without the Andantes would not have worked either, at least not as well... The Andante's had the best voices and harmonization's of any of the female singers at Motown by far [[and that includes The Supremes, The Vandellas, and The Marvelettes) and lent high end harmonies to some of the male groups as a balance. Lead singing and background work are two entirely different things. So is recording and performing on stage... At this stage, why anyone would second guess the legendary Motown producers, how they put their projects together, and the undeniable success of their product is puzzling, other than some folks who just don't understand the business and somehow seem insulted that the harsh reality of the music business is not what they perceived or wish to believe... Berry Gordy was in it to make money and succeed with the groups he virtually created and using the names he held the rights to use as he wished to give all the people he was responsible for the greatest chance for success...not to placate the erroneous fantasies from fans as to how the industry is supposed to operate...

Stu, I couldn't have said it any better myself, Sir. Each and every point you just made in this post is, spot-on, the gospel truth.
Motown maintained the highest of musical standards and, lucky for us, they remained true to those standards without fail.

[ralpht]

You nailed it,Stu.

[mowsville]

Stu...you answered that in a nutshell ..pity it wasnt at the top of this thread lol.

[jobeterob]

Yah Stu !

And many of the fantasies you mention were hatched 40 years after the fact

[StuBass1]

Thanks guys... Seems pretty obvious what happened going back 60 years with the legacy created. Second guessing just makes no sense to me... Kinda like second guessing Red Auerbach's Celtic teams of the late 50's and 60's... They both did what worked...

[WaitingWatchingLookingForAChance]

I too thought this was finished...but let the games carry on. The Motown girl groups succeeded largely on the basis of how they presented themselves before America to compliment the recordings released by the company which moved Motown beyond a regional record company buttonholed largely on the R&B charts... This is why the Philly artists didn't enjoy the widespread acclaim and longevity as did the Motown artists, despite the fact that the Philly product was arguably just as good...just not the same level of crossover acclaim and not as familiar in the mainstream media of television, film, and widespread culture as was the Motown brand...Obviously, the terrific Motown songs and tracks were great, and the identifiable lead singers were easily recognizable and outstanding. That said...with some of the groups, particularly the girl groups... their physical appearance and image [[as evidenced by the close attention from Maxine Powell)was largely what sold them to the American public. Diana Ross on the Ed Sullivan show backed by The Andantes dressed in gowns would not have worked, and some of those songs recorded without the Andantes would not have worked either, at least not as well... The Andante's had the best voices and harmonization's of any of the female singers at Motown by far [[and that includes The Supremes, The Vandellas, and The Marvelettes) and lent high end harmonies to some of the male groups as a balance. Lead singing and background work are two entirely different things. So is recording and performing on stage... At this stage, why anyone would second guess the legendary Motown producers, how they put their projects together, and the undeniable success of their product is puzzling, other than some folks who just don't understand the business and somehow seem insulted that the harsh reality of the music business is not what they perceived or wish to believe... Berry Gordy was in it to make money and succeed with the groups he virtually created and using the names he held the rights to use as he wished to give all the people he was responsible for the greatest chance for success...not to placate the erroneous fantasies from fans as to how the industry is supposed to operate...
Wow. One of the best posts I've ever enjoyed on this site, because it's factual. It's the nature of the business. As I got older and read more and more books, I came to realize pretty much all record companies and producers were doing the same thing. I'm not saying anything else [[I can already feel about 30 paragraphs forming in my mind...) You said what counts.

[jboy88]

Amen to that, Stu! No offense to the Vandellas or Marvelletes, but sometimes their voices were a bit too shaky and unpolished for some of the songs! I saw an old video of Martha and the Vandellas singing “My Baby Loves Me” live on YouTube and thought to myself “No wonder they used the Andantes and Four Tops on that one”.

As far as the Supremes are concerned, I always figured the Andantes were involved on their recordings strictly because Mary, Flo, or both were giving HDH fists during sessions and didn’t feel like dealing with them. I guess it was less of a hassle for them to use the Andantes and get on with it.

[detmotownguy]

Amen to that, Stu! No offense to the Vandellas or Marvelletes, but sometimes their voices were a bit too shaky and unpolished for some of the songs! I saw an old video of Martha and the Vandellas singing “My Baby Loves Me” live on YouTube and thought to myself “No wonder they used the Andantes and Four Tops on that one”.

As far as the Supremes are concerned, I always figured the Andantes were involved on their recordings strictly because Mary, Flo, or both were giving HDH fists during sessions and didn’t feel like dealing with them. I guess it was less of a hassle for them to use the Andantes and get on with it.
I didn’t know that Flo and Mary were problems for HDH in the recording studio? Where did u read that?

[jobeterob]

They wanted a look on stage - and they got that with Mary and Cindy

They wanted a sound on the 45s especially - and they got it with the Andantes

I’m sure they all acted up once in a while - they were basically just a bunch of young people

[StuBass1]

They wanted a look on stage - and they got that with Mary and Cindy

They wanted a sound on the 45s especially - and they got it with the Andantes

I’m sure they all acted up once in a while - they were basically just a bunch of young people

Exactly... and being dressed in fancy gowns, immaculate hairstyling graced with extensively rehearsed choreography behind a lead singer with a very recognizable voice distracts from background vocals to a large degree [[and on some television appearances, they were undoubtedly accompanied with background vocal tracks)... When listening to a recording on a transistor radio or stereo record player, ONLY the voices are what will be judged, and as you alluded to...The Andantes were the cream of the crop when it came to vocal quality and harmonization... Mary and Flo, [[and later Cindy) were competent background singers...not a highly accomplished vocal unit as were the Andantes, The Sweethearts of Sigma, or The Vincent Sisters and others who complimented recordings in the 60's and 70's... Mary was seen as the great looking Supreme, Flo [[who had a very good solo voice) and fit well with the early ensemble, and of course...Diana, Berry Gordy's hand picked superstar whose voice became synonymous with the Motown Sound...

[Boogiedown]

just want to make sure I'm following this correctly ;

whose voices are being heard here : .....


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fFg-2UrUTUc

[Philles/Motown Gary]

just want to make sure I'm following this correctly ;

whose voices are being heard here : .....


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fFg-2UrUTUc
John, it's Diana Ross and The Andantes. From "Love Child" [[1968) onward, all succeeding Supremes' studio recordings were Diana Ross and The Andantes except for "Someday We'll Be Together" which was Diana Ross and The Waters Sisters. The only exception was the 4 albums by The Supremes & Temptations [[2 studio albums and 2 live albums), all of which contained Mary & Cindy, as well as any Diana Ross & The Supremes live albums which were also Mary Cindy.

[detmotownguy]

[QUOTE=StuBass1;525371]Totally believable. Ringo was really good for what he did...but had his limitations as well... Nothing about substituting musicians for recording sessions that is unusual..
On YouTube Ringo explains that he is left-handed so he plays the drums differently and than a right handed drummer. It is very entertaining- great guy. What are his limitations?

[detmotownguy]

I have never bought a record in my life because the Andantes were singing on it. We didn't even know who they were when I was growing up. I look at them as accompaniment but not on the same level as the legendary Funk Brothers.

While I understand some folks feel these ladies had an immense impact in the Motown product, I suggest that the Funk Bros played an even larger role in producing a quality product.

[Jimi LaLumia]

I agree with the flawless assessment provided by Stu..

[bob_olhsson]

I was there!

The reason the Andantes [[and male background singers
in some cases) were used was not dramatic at all. Lamont Dozier liked to arrange and record the backgrounds last in order to fill out gaps in energy left by the musicians and lead singer. Canceling gigs that had been booked months earlier just to put a little icing on a record was an extremely expensive proposition for the company and, most of all, for the artists themselves. The Andantes were on a lot more records than the ones mentioned for that simple workflow and economic reason.

[StuBass1]

While I understand some folks feel these ladies had an immense impact in the Motown product, I suggest that the Funk Bros played an even larger role in producing a quality product.

That may well be...however since this tread is about The Andantes, The Funk Brothers and their massive contributions are pretty much a moot point. As for who had a "larger role"... your point may be well taken since the music tracks were arguably a significantly greater key element than the background vocals to the end product. The Funk Brothers have had books written about them [[as have The Andantes) and there has been a popular documentary film about The Funk Brothers, as well as having received a Grammy Lifetime Achievement Award, and there is a Star on the Hollywood Walk Of Fame bearing their name, along with many other honors and recognitions... As for legacy, The Funk Brothers have achieved much, albeit much to late for most of them to be able to appreciate it as they should have... Both The Funk Brothers AND The Andantes have a very important and significant story to tell...

[marv2]

I was there!

The reason the Andantes [[and male background singers
in some cases) were used was not dramatic at all. Lamont Dozier liked to arrange and record the backgrounds last in order to fill out gaps in energy left by the musicians and lead singer. Canceling gigs that had been booked months earlier just to put a little icing on a record was an extremely expensive proposition for the company and, most of all, for the artists themselves. The Andantes were on a lot more records than the ones mentioned for that simple workflow and economic reason.

Bob, thank you! That was exactly my understanding. There was nothing nefarious or dramatic involved. The Andantes were stationary, local and on call 24/7. Thanks!

[marv2]

While I understand some folks feel these ladies had an immense impact in the Motown product, I suggest that the Funk Bros played an even larger role in producing a quality product.

To myself and many, the Funk Brothers WERE the Motown Sound! Singers were important, session singers were sometimes necessary ,but I do not believe Motown could have done without all of those great musicians that gave it's records their unique sound.

[StuBass1]

Lamont says in this interesting article that The Andantes were the "fixers"...and were often called on to fix the tracks that were lacking something... The producers interviewed here, Mickey, Ivy, Lamont, all basically describe the trio as "indispensable"...https://www.aarp.org/entertainment/music/info-2018/motown-girl-group-the-andantes.html

[marv2]

Lamont says in this interesting article that The Andantes were the "fixers"...and were often called on to fix the tracks that were lacking something... The producers interviewed here, Mickey, Ivy, Lamont, all basically describe the trio as "indispensable"...https://www.aarp.org/entertainment/music/info-2018/motown-girl-group-the-andantes.html

If they believed that, then maybe they should have been paying them more than $5 per session and the ladies would not have had to moonlight at other labels. I'm just saying.

[StuBass1]

If they believed that, then maybe they should have been paying them more than $5 per session and the ladies would not have had to moonlight at other labels. I'm just saying.

LOL...Actually, according to the ladies...they were paid $10 per hour as they were virtually always on call. They let them sleep in Berry's old apartment upstairs so they were always close when needed...In the 60's, $10 an hour weren't bad wages. I was paid $3.67 an hour at the Ford Wixom Assembly plant in 1970 during my college days...and that was with a 50 cent bump because I operated a crane... The Funk Brothers were initially paid $5 a session in the early days...and as a bonus...a bowl of soup...

[marv2]

LOL...Actually, according to the ladies...they were paid $10 per hour as they were virtually always on call. They let them sleep in Berry's old apartment upstairs so they were always close when needed...In the 60's, $10 an hour weren't bad wages. I was paid $3.67 an hour at the Ford Wixom Assembly plant in 1970 during my college days...and that was with a 50 cent bump because I operated a crane... The Funk Brothers were initially paid $5 a session in the early days...and as a bonus...a bowl of soup...

I did not make that up about the $ 5 per session. Evidently they finally raised it to $10. No that was not bad in the 60s. When I started working in the 70s [[excluding my paper route), min. wage was $2.10/hr.

I just think that if they valued the Andantes so, so very much as they claim now, then they would have paid them better and they would not have left them high and dry when the company moved to LA in 1972. They went out there and just picked up new session singers.

[marv2]

These are the Number one hits for Motown that the Andantes sang on:

"My Guy" – Mary Wells
"I Can't Help Myself [[Sugar Pie Honey Bunch)" – Four Tops
"Reach Out I'll Be There" – Four Tops
"Love Child" – Diana Ross & the Supremes
"I Heard It Through the Grapevine" – Marvin Gaye

Not a bad track record [[no pun intended). They should have been paid more, minus the soup!

[StuBass1]

Agree in hindsight that many Motown Detroit employees were sort of left behind, including even some of their artists...and most famously...The Funk Brothers... That said...Motown moving to Los Angeles was obviously trying to create a new updated sound and to gain acceptance in the L.A. music community, use the available people already here, which explains the Funk Brothers not being brought as a unit, as well as other employees...even engineers and others. Russ Terrana was one of the few who was asked to come out to California. Keep in mind that in comparison to Detroit...Los Angeles was awash in Musicians, background singers, engineers, and studios...

[marv2]

Lamont says in this interesting article that The Andantes were the "fixers"...and were often called on to fix the tracks that were lacking something... The producers interviewed here, Mickey, Ivy, Lamont, all basically describe the trio as "indispensable"...https://www.aarp.org/entertainment/music/info-2018/motown-girl-group-the-andantes.html

Did Lamont explain why they did not hire them over at Invictus once Motown left town?

[StuBass1]

I would assume that since they weren't producing the volume of recordings anywhere near the levels of Motown, HDH had no need to recruit the Andantes, even if one assumes that the Andantes would have been interested in continuing their careers at that point...HDH already had the Vincent Sisters... terrific singers in their own right he brought to Invictus immediately after leaving Motown while the Andantes were still loyal to Gordy and Motown until the label left Detroit before the end of 1972... By the time Invictus/Hot Wax began having serious financial problems by 1973, Motown had just closed down their Detroit operation as Lamont left the Holland Brothers who continued to run Invictus [[minus Hot Wax) on a shoestring for a few more years, The Vincents and Telma got plucked away for the Dawn thing that already had an album under their belt before The Vincents and Telma were recruited to officialy become Tony Orlando and Dawn...In addition, Invictus wasn't nearly as well organized and artistically diverse as Motown and reportedly were getting shorted money from their distributors...and I'm assuming towards the end of the Invictus era, they were utilizing whatever singers were around the company...just as they interchanged musicians like Tony Newton, Bruce Nazarian, Melvin Davis, Lyman Woodard and 8th Day who were marketed as both a group and were used as session musicians for the other acts... They even used some of the same artists as part of more than one group...I remember running into Tony one day and he invited me over to a house he had just moved into over near Livernois and Pembroke and all these musicians were hanging around there... Those were the nucleus of 8th day, and also played on the tracks for 100 Proof Aged In Soul...HDH ran their entire label on interchangeable parts due to economic issues... While they collected significant revenues from Motown Gordy had sued them, and ultimately in the end, Invictus was something where they bit off a bit more than they could chew...

[detmotownguy]

LOL...Actually, according to the ladies...they were paid $10 per hour as they were virtually always on call. They let them sleep in Berry's old apartment upstairs so they were always close when needed...In the 60's, $10 an hour weren't bad wages. I was paid $3.67 an hour at the Ford Wixom Assembly plant in 1970 during my college days...and that was with a 50 cent bump because I operated a crane... The Funk Brothers were initially paid $5 a session in the early days...and as a bonus...a bowl of soup...

Pick me up off the floor. SMH. the Funk Bros. should have been set for life IMO. And to a lessor extent, the Andantes sleeping on site for immediate access should have been compensated accordingly. Seems to be a lot of questionable compensation @ Motown. But maybe were just thankful to be part of the Motown machine. For instance, the way they billed the Sups for their costs etc. was crazy. And when Diana left they told her to turn the car back in? Good grief. Can't believe Berry didn't offer the Andantes some sort of contract to record during their own music during "idle" if there was any.

[StuBass1]

Pick me up off the floor. SMH. the Funk Bros. should have been set for life IMO. And to a lessor extent, the Andantes sleeping on site for immediate access should have been compensated accordingly. Seems to be a lot of questionable compensation @ Motown. But maybe were just thankful to be part of the Motown machine. For instance, the way they billed the Sups for their costs etc. was crazy. And when Diana left they told her to turn the car back in? Good grief. Can't believe Berry didn't offer the Andantes some sort of contract to record during their own music during "idle" if there was any.

Well even many, if not most of the artists from Motown's Detroit era weren't "set for life"...mostly far from it... The Funks were session musicians, several of whom ultimately made good money at Motown, but at the time were still seen as contract musicians who were paid union scale and the going rate for session players. Obviously, it wasn't until years later that their contributions, much like the Wrecking Crew on the West Coast, and invaluable contributions were widely recognized... Such is the life of a musician... Had they played hardball and demanded more money at the time, Berry would have most likely just found different musicians to take their place from a talented pool of musicians in and around Detroit, once again, not realizing what a unique contribution they made to the total product... Most of them were just happy to be working regularly and living pretty well compared to the 9-5 jobs and factory work most of their contemporaries were doing, and also able to play their jazz at night, unusual for musicians back in the day, and even today... Same with singers like The Andantes... Nobody recognized just what a valuable contribution they made, likely assuming at the time that if these ladies weren't there to sing, Detroit was FULL of vocally talented singers... The real shame is AFTER the Funks were recognized for their unique contributions, years later...at least those surviving, that they were unable to fully take advantage of playing off their legacy based on unfortunate mismanagement, but in the final analysis, the Funks AND The Andantes had the rare opportunity in life to do what they loved doing...and not a lot of people can really say that when it's time to look back... We are all products of the time in which we lived...

[jobeterob]

Very good posts Stu - they explain in a rational way what happened and there’s no emotion about the way things turned out

[arr&bee]

This is an excellent post about the inner workings of the[motown]machine!

[WaitingWatchingLookingForAChance]

I was there!

The reason the Andantes [[and male background singers
in some cases) were used was not dramatic at all. Lamont Dozier liked to arrange and record the backgrounds last in order to fill out gaps in energy left by the musicians and lead singer. Canceling gigs that had been booked months earlier just to put a little icing on a record was an extremely expensive proposition for the company and, most of all, for the artists themselves. The Andantes were on a lot more records than the ones mentioned for that simple workflow and economic reason.


Well Mr. Olhsson, to have your say, from an eyewitness, says it all for me!

Yet I have this odd aching in my bones that yours will not be the final word on this [[even though it VERY well should be.)

[ralpht]

In 1968 Eddie Holland approached me regarding buying Tera Shirma. We quoted him a price of one million dollars which was not accepted. I wonder if HDH would have been better off with that deal, considering they would be buying a brand new state of the art facility instead of going through the expense and hassle of building their own.

[Circa 1824]

I do not agree that everyone who does great work should be “set for life.” Almost everyone must think about tomorrow’s needs and expenses.

[jobeterob]

I do not agree that everyone who does great work should be “set for life.” Almost everyone must think about tomorrow’s needs and expenses.

The public doesn’t know a lot about the Andantes or the Funk Brothers or any other background singer or session player

But it’s very clear that the fact that a very few at Motown made so much while so many barely made a living and had no pension or savings is something that burns the backsides of a few posters on here

Life isn’t always kind and fair and the likes of Stevie and Diana can’t help the finances of everyone that doesn’t have a lot of money

[Boogiedown]

what goes around comes around I guess . Apparently that is none of the Andantes singing lead on their own record :


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BBnsOCkdSXY


LOL!!

[marv2]

what goes around comes around I guess . Apparently that is none of the Andantes singing lead on their own record :


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BBnsOCkdSXY


LOL!!


That is more than a little ironic. hehehehehehehehehehehehehe.........!

[Philles/Motown Gary]

what goes around comes around I guess . Apparently that is none of the Andantes singing lead on their own record :


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BBnsOCkdSXY


LOL!!
John, you're right -- The lead singer on The Andantes "[[Like A) Nightmare" is Anne Bogan, who became a latter-day Marvelette, replacing founding-member Gladys Horton in 1967 [[following the release of The Marvelettes' self-titled "Pink" album). It's odd that Motown would finally let The Andantes record a single with their own name on it, and then un-do it all by using another artist's lead vocal on it. In fact, to my ears, it doesn't even sound like The Andantes on back-up vocals, either. I'm guessing it was Motown's way of ensuring that the record would flop and they would never have to worry about losing their go-to back-up singers.

[Boogiedown]

John, you're right -- The lead singer on The Andantes "[[Like A) Nightmare" is Anne Bogan, who became a latter-day Marvelette, replacing founding-member Gladys Horton in 1967 [[following the release of The Marvelettes' self-titled "Pink" album). It's odd that Motown would finally let The Andantes record a single with their own name on it, and then un-do it all by using another artist's lead vocal on it. In fact, to my ears, it doesn't even sound like The Andantes on back-up vocals, either. I'm guessing it was Motown's way of ensuring that the record would flop and they would never have to worry about losing their go-to back-up singers.

as Marv said, hehehehehehe

[Philles/Motown Gary]

as Marv said, hehehehehehe
Whatever....

[Boogiedown]

you don't find the whole thing [[of The Andantes not singing lead on their own song) amusing Gary?

[StuBass1]

Berry Gordy wisely codified his support crew from time to time...musicians, singers, execs, etc with projects that were never intended to launch careers, but to essentially show them some love. This looks like one of those instances, using his 2nd tier "minor league" label VIP so the singers could see their name on some vinyl... He did the same thing with several Funk Brothers, including an experimental jazz label project and the Fever In The Funkhouse recording, none of which were significantly supported or promoted... He also took out some old band tracks and let Earl Van Dyke record organ solo's over them and released them as albums. Nothing like Stax did in allowing Booker T & The MG's to record on their own while also cutting tracks for other artists, or PIR did with actual credible releases of their backing band...MFSB...who ultimately left Gamble & Huff when they felt their popularity was underappreciated... Berry Gordy was smarter and held on to his background singers and session musicians by not letting them get too popular, but a few token projects let those performers know that Berry was at least thinking of them realizing that their greatest contribution to the company was in a background capacity...

[Philles/Motown Gary]

you don't find the whole thing [[of The Andantes not singing lead on their own song) amusing Gary?

Yeah, I got it, John. I was just surprised at the circumstances under which it was said.

[kenneth]

I haven't read every post in this thread so forgive me if I'm repeating a point someone else already made.

My buddy Gary mentioned the West Coast musicians who made up what became know as The Wrecking Crew. They played on thousands of records which were marketed as being played by the Beach Boys, Gary Lewis & the Playboys, and many other acts which were supposedly "self-contained" musicians and singers. There's a great PBS special on The Wrecking Crew and a CD box set of many of their most famous recordings on which they played.

Ike Turner didn't even play guitar on all of Ike and Tina's recordings. Their blues album, "The Hunter" had great guitar work on it but was played by Albert Collins, not Ike.

So this kind of practice is very, very common in the music industry.

That being said, I still prefer hearing the original singers, even if they sound rough and unvarnished like the Marvelettes do on their early numbers or even some later tracks such as "The Stranger." On "Uptown," for example, the Andantes may be on it, but I'm sure the main backing vocals are Katherine and Anne. They just sound less smooth than the Andantes and more identifiable with how the Marvelettes sound on most of their earlier records. I'm sure the Andantes were better singers than most of the Motown artists, but to me their sound may have been smoother, but was somehow more "antiseptic."

As a young listener, I wondered why their backgrounds seemed to be muted and more "background" than on the earlier records, though at the time it would have never occurred to me that it was anyone other than the group singing. Naive, weren't we?

[Philles/Motown Gary]

I haven't read every post in this thread so forgive me if I'm repeating a point someone else already made.

My buddy Gary mentioned the West Coast musicians who made up what became know as The Wrecking Crew. They played on thousands of records which were marketed as being played by the Beach Boys, Gary Lewis & the Playboys, and many other acts which were supposedly "self-contained" musicians and singers. There's a great PBS special on The Wrecking Crew and a CD box set of many of their most famous recordings on which they played.

Ike Turner didn't even play guitar on all of Ike and Tina's recordings. Their blues album, "The Hunter" had great guitar work on it but was played by Albert Collins, not Ike.

So this kind of practice is very, very common in the music industry.

That being said, I still prefer hearing the original singers, even if they sound rough and unvarnished like the Marvelettes do on their early numbers or even some later tracks such as "The Stranger." On "Uptown," for example, the Andantes may be on it, but I'm sure the main backing vocals are Katherine and Anne. They just sound less smooth than the Andantes and more identifiable with how the Marvelettes sound on most of their earlier records. I'm sure the Andantes were better singers than most of the Motown artists, but to me their sound may have been smoother, but was somehow more "antiseptic."

As a young listener, I wondered why their backgrounds seemed to be muted and more "background" than on the earlier records, though at the time it would have never occurred to me that it was anyone other than the group singing. Naive, weren't we?

Gee, Kenny, I wonder how I knew you were gonna say that! Ha! 😉