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sup_fan
06-29-2019, 06:49 PM
seems like most fans were happy that Diana had returned to a more adult pop/soul sound after the craziness of Workin' Overtime.

What are your thoughts on this lp? There were a few variations of track listings by regions/countries. Do you think one lineup is better than another?

Fav tracks?

And what about the whole nonsense of Motown US' promotion? she was out touring for months prior to the album release, then a complete schizophrenia regarding which song to promote and when

Do you think Motown robbed her of a US hit? do you think the US audience would have accepted a song from her?

reese
06-29-2019, 07:52 PM
One of Diana's best albums in my opinion. My favorite songs are CHANGE OF HEART, WHEN YOU TELL ME THAT YOU LOVE ME, BATTLEFIELD, BLAME IT ON THE SUN, WAITING IN THE WINGS, and ONE SHINING MOMENT.

I saw Diana in concert in August of 1991 and she sang six of the songs during the show. To me, it sounded like she had a great new album and I couldn't wait for it to be released. But with Motown's baffling promotion, the project seemed doomed. Too bad because I think if this had been her back to Motown album instead of WORKIN' OVERTIME, it might have done much better in the US.

But things just seemed to work against it. She goes on Arsenio and does a great performance of the title track but neither that single or album is available. Then she goes on VIDEO SOUL to world premiere the video of the title track. Still no single or album. Plans for the first single change and now she's singing WHEN YOU TELL ME THAT YOU LOVE ME on the Tonight Show. Yet still no single or album for a month or so. Sure the diehards were going to buy the album once it was finally released. But I'm sure a lot of sales were lost from casual buyers who might have purchased the album after liking the songs in concert or hearing them on television. Of course, the same thing happened with the TAKE ME HIGHER cd as well. But I digress...

It was nice that other markets appreciated the album. I was in Europe in 1992, right when ONE SHINING MOMENT was a hit. Every night, I would rush back to my hotel to watch a music video show that was showing the video. My friends thought I was crazy but I figured I would never see it again because the album was dead by that time in the US. As an aside, I will also say that it was a pleasure to meet its writer, Vanesse Thomas, and tell how much I loved the song and how much I heard it on that European trip.

daviddh
06-29-2019, 09:37 PM
Great album.
Great concert tour.
Once again the album was delayed . strange. We kept waiting. But love the album.
Waiting in the wings is my favorite song.
Change of heart was my 2nd .
Motown wasnt supportive of her .I just don't know how things were not in place to support this album.
One of her top ten albums

captainjames
06-29-2019, 10:25 PM
I loved Blame it On the Sun but, I knew it would never be released as a single. I was also aware of the Motown battle. Diana looked good and sounded good.

Albator
06-30-2019, 02:18 AM
I was unimpressed by the album as a whole. It is not hot enough, more a like a MOR/pop album.

Song to song, I think it's good.
- I like FBTP much more now than in 91. A great song, should have stayed in her act.
- "Change of heart" reminds me of her RCA Ross in 1983. Love it.
- "Heart don't change my mind" much better than by Babs
- "WYTMTYLM" saccharine sweetness arrangment.

The rest is OK, to me. Nothing exciting, honest.

I remember the album was available in Europe in the summer, June or July, while it wasn't available in the US.

Albator
06-30-2019, 02:22 AM
I also remember me thinking [[at that time), her style and wardrobe was old-fashioned to the max.
Her appearance at the Tonight show was a jump back into the seventies

Bluebrock
06-30-2019, 02:40 AM
Great album, and one of Diana's personal favorites. She really believed in this album. Motown USA really screwed up with this one, but here in Europe it gained the attention and sales it deserved. Loved it back then, love it now.

lakedistrictlad1
06-30-2019, 03:59 AM
For us Brits, this album was bang on the nail. This album showcased the Diana Ross that the British public had loved for years. Both the music and the way she presented herself. I remember watching her sing 'One Thing Moment' on Top of the pops' [[which was THE pop programme on TV at the time). It could have been 1971 and her singing 'I'm still waiting' all over again.
It was like she went back to what she was loved for after all the madness of experimenting in the previous years. The album was a real return to form.

lucky2012
06-30-2019, 02:18 PM
I like this album. Wish it had been her return-to-Motown album. As I listened to the first two tracks, Change of Heart [[great track, should have been first single) and When You Tell Me [[bombastic but a good vocal), I actually got misty, feeling Diana had found her way back after the long RCA detour and the WO wreckage.
My favorites are Change of Heart, Waiting In The Wings and One Shining Moment. The rest of the album is also fine. Surprisingly, the title track was the only real disappointment.
The cover art, like the album's style and production, was gorgeous but, as mentioned in another post, a bit old-fashioned. None of this was going to restore her pop relevance in that time of Whitney, Janet and Mariah, but I welcomed this return-to-form album anyway. I'm glad to know she believed in it herself. I wish Motown had.

Albator
07-01-2019, 03:20 AM
I Europe, we had bonus tracks "If we hold on" and "no matter what you do" adding even more different styles to this eclectic album.

Ollie9
07-01-2019, 03:57 AM
A solid effort if a trifle safe and vanilla. I much prefer the edgy vibe of Workin' Overtime where Diana sings like she means it. :p

Levi Stubbs Tears
07-01-2019, 05:30 AM
Diana hadn't been played on the radio downunder much since Chain Reaction was a mega-hit. I'd bought all her albums since Eaten Alive, but hadn't really enjoyed any of them.

I didn't actually get this album since a double-single CD was released here which included FBTP, One Shining Moment, If We Hold on Together & WYTMTYLM. I liked all those songs and was pleased that Diana was having chart success in the UK again after a few lean years.

Bluebrock
07-01-2019, 09:09 AM
Diana hadn't been played on the radio downunder much since Chain Reaction was a mega-hit. I'd bought all her albums since Eaten Alive, but hadn't really enjoyed any of them.

I didn't actually get this album since a double-single CD was released here which included FBTP, One Shining Moment, If We Hold on Together & WYTMTYLM. I liked all those songs and was pleased that Diana was having chart success in the UK again after a few lean years.
She was never that big in Australia as i recall, but then again neither was Michael Jackson until Off the wall broke big. Soul music always had a tough time Down Under. When i lived in Sydney in the early 80's it was virtually impossible to hear a soul song on the radio. When i returned to live there briefly in the 90's things had improved and soul music was much more accessable .Diana always sold out her concerts over there, but after the no.1 with Chain Reaction we had trouble getting her another hit.

sup_fan
07-01-2019, 11:57 AM
i agree with some of the assessments that's it's a bit vanilla. i too saw the concert during this time and would play album tracks for friends. they thought it was ok but nothing overly exciting. Same with Take Me Higher. I think her most "spot on" album in terms of sounds and trends was Everyday.

completely agree that motown wasted this album. When You Tell Me is nice enough but not strong enough to be a top US hit. should have at least made top 40 though. Force [[the song) is ok too but nothing special. to me the lyrics are that overdone "self help" nonsense that Diana seems to really love. i think if it had been a more traditional set of lyrics like love, heartbreak and romance, it might have clicked. the backing track sounded hot

Levi Stubbs Tears
07-03-2019, 12:45 AM
She was never that big in Australia as i recall. Soul music always had a tough time Down Under. When i lived in Sydney in the early 80's it was virtually impossible to hear a soul song on the radio.

Motown had quite some success in the 60s & early 70s. Before my time, but I note that 'When the Lovelight' did quite well downunder & even the Supremes/Tempts live version of 'Rhythm of Life' went Top 10.

Of course, Upside Down went #1 but the 'disco sucks' backlash was even stronger in Australia than elsewhere and most radio stations moved to rockier [[and 'classic hits') formats. Even now I cringe when listening to commercial radio [[in my sister's car when visiting her) & it is just back-to-back Guns & Roses and PearlJam and..... I guess you can imagine the rest of the format).

Bluebrock
07-03-2019, 02:22 AM
Motown had quite some success in the 60s & early 70s. Before my time, but I note that 'When the Lovelight' did quite well downunder & even the Supremes/Tempts live version of 'Rhythm of Life' went Top 10.

Of course, Upside Down went #1 but the 'disco sucks' backlash was even stronger in Australia than elsewhere and most radio stations moved to rockier [[and 'classic hits') formats. Even now I cringe when listening to commercial radio [[in my sister's car when visiting her) & it is just back-to-back Guns & Roses and PearlJam and..... I guess you can imagine the rest of the format).
In the days before the internet it was very difficult to obtain soul albums/cd's. I recall having great trouble ordering an Angela Bofill cd. After lots of frustrating attempts i finally gave up and bought the cd on a visit back to the UK.

Albator
07-03-2019, 02:46 AM
To determine commercial success, I still wonder how accurate are the charts? In the US, for exemple, it seems blacks artists were under estimated. Look at Teddy Pendergrass, he had most of his LP certified gold or platinum, yet his rankings are not spectacular on the billboard charts.

Than in UK, the Eaten Alive album charted rather high at #8, helped by the number 1 hit Chain Reaction and yet, it's not even silver.

sup_fan
07-03-2019, 03:08 PM
in the US, there's a disproportionate emphasis on the pop chart rankings when judging success of a record. a #1 on adult contemp or dance or r&b is usually not viewed as "successful" as pop. and it's Billboard's chart rankings, not Cashbox or any others.

Part of this would be due to historic economics. White US audiences tended to follow the Pop charts more than R&B and, in years past, the white audiences tended to have more discretionary spending power for things like lps, lots of 45s for the kids, tickets to clubs and high-end venues.

Another part would have to be the general apathy for all non-white forms of entertainment. basically racism. the overall population tended to only consider "white entertainment" to have any major redeeming values.

Finally, chart rankings can be deceiving. Everyone wants a #1, even if it means your record or album races up the charts, hits the top spot and then sinks like a rock. Everyone wants to be the top and have that title whereas the more profitable viewpoint is to have a song that lingers for weeks in the upper ranges. a song that sits in the top 20 or 10 for many weeks probably outsold that previous example. in the 60s, a lot of the Sup releases flew quickly up the charts, hit #1 and then began to descend. Motown was putting all of the promotional oomph behind them in order to help drive the high chart placements. but the Sup songs are rarely the biggest sellers of the year. Bayou on here has made several excellent posts on this throughout the years. I think he said in 66 the top seller was What Becomes of Brokenhearted. Track of my Tears [[i think) is another he mentions. neither hit #1 but both charted high and charted long.

jobeterob
07-04-2019, 07:10 PM
A superlative album with many hits as Europe showed us

Force was not the best first single by any stretch but maybe it had to be released because Stevie wrote it

True Motown wasn’t what it was either and they didn’t do the best job; but Diana took a lot of time off to have children as well

The first single should have been WYTMTYLM

Albator
07-05-2019, 02:06 AM
A superlative album with many hits as Europe showed us

Force was not the best first single by any stretch but maybe it had to be released because Stevie wrote it

True Motown wasn’t what it was either and they didn’t do the best job; but Diana took a lot of time off to have children as well

The first single should have been WYTMTYLM?????? This wasn't the first single in the US?

JohnnyB
07-05-2019, 06:51 AM
?????? This wasn't the first single in the US?

WYTMTYLM was the first US single release, but it appears Force may have been considered. The Force had been performed on Arsenio Hall and it’s video was airing on BET. I made several trips to a local record store waiting for this single to be released and was confused when I finally found WYTM instead...

Guy
07-05-2019, 01:05 PM
I wasn't feeling FBTP at all. I hated WO but then the Al B. Sure duet came along. It may have been ill-advised to sing a sexy duet with a much younger man but her vocals were fabulous and dreamy and sensuous -- really the best she'd sounded in a long time. It meshed so well with that sonic template. I thought she was onto something and I thought she'd go that direction on her next project.

Then came FBTP. The title track and its video were so awful. All of those treacly pop ballads [[!) Olivia Newton-John had rejected all of those songs because she thought they sounded "too white" [[lol, not really). I felt like Ross didn't make any real effort to find a suitable urban contemporary sound. This on the heels of WO and it made me retreat from Ross pretty much until "Everyday Is A New Day." I ignored "Take Me Higher" upon its release and only discovered it [[and loved it) in retrospect -- post-EIAND

Albator
07-05-2019, 01:09 PM
Then came FBTP. The title track and its video were so awful. All of those treacly pop ballads [[!) Olivia Newton-John had rejected all of those songs because she thought they sounded "too white" [[lol, not really). I felt like Ross didn't make any real effort to find a suitable urban contemporary sound. This on the heels of WO and it made me retreat from Ross pretty much until "Everyday Is A New Day." I ignored "Take Me Higher" upon its release and only discovered it [[and loved it) in retrospect -- post-EIANDThis speak to me. I also ignored TMH, even so I bought it.

sup_fan
07-05-2019, 02:45 PM
definitely agree with these two prior posts. to me much of the content on Force and Take is just sort of generic, adult r&b/pop. basically she's just singing sort of the same old stuff will slightly different backing tracks. none of it was truly unique or special.

and frankly this was the case with some of her late 80s work too [[RHR&B). she sort of latched onto an image and sound and never deviated from it. Thick mane of hair, sequin gowns, singing some sort of middle of the road ballad, etc.

now i'll admit she attempted a totally different sound and look with WO. and it wasn't a success. And I do think Everyday broke out of this mold too. at least with content and production. the album at least has a theme, albeit a sad one.

vgalindo
07-05-2019, 10:57 PM
in the US, there's a disproportionate emphasis on the pop chart rankings when judging success of a record. a #1 on adult contemp or dance or r&b is usually not viewed as "successful" as pop. and it's Billboard's chart rankings, not Cashbox or any others.

Part of this would be due to historic economics. White US audiences tended to follow the Pop charts more than R&B and, in years past, the white audiences tended to have more discretionary spending power for things like lps, lots of 45s for the kids, tickets to clubs and high-end venues.

Another part would have to be the general apathy for all non-white forms of entertainment. basically racism. the overall population tended to only consider "white entertainment" to have any major redeeming values.

Finally, chart rankings can be deceiving. Everyone wants a #1, even if it means your record or album races up the charts, hits the top spot and then sinks like a rock. Everyone wants to be the top and have that title whereas the more profitable viewpoint is to have a song that lingers for weeks in the upper ranges. a song that sits in the top 20 or 10 for many weeks probably outsold that previous example. in the 60s, a lot of the Sup releases flew quickly up the charts, hit #1 and then began to descend. Motown was putting all of the promotional oomph behind them in order to help drive the high chart placements. but the Sup songs are rarely the biggest sellers of the year. Bayou on here has made several excellent posts on this throughout the years. I think he said in 66 the top seller was What Becomes of Brokenhearted. Track of my Tears [[i think) is another he mentions. neither hit #1 but both charted high and charted long.
I was really surprised that one of my favorite songs ever “The tracks of my tears” didn’t even hit Billboards top10. I believe it peaked at #16. However it did hit #2 on Billboards R&B charts. It’s funny because the version by Johnny Rivers hit the top ten.

marv2
07-05-2019, 11:26 PM
That was a bad album and I told my friend who was in Motown's Marketing Dept. at the time that they were going to have problem selling it. I was right. Even cover art was bad. The album title didn't even make sense.

Roberta75
07-06-2019, 01:11 AM
That was a bad album and I told my friend who was in Motown's Marketing Dept. at the time that they were going to have problem selling it. I was right. Even cover art was bad. The album title didn't even make sense.

I actually like the album a lot Luke and Marv.

Bluebrock
07-06-2019, 02:04 AM
I actually like the album a lot Luke and Marv.
You tell them Roberta! Ha ha ha.

Bluebrock
07-06-2019, 02:08 AM
That was a bad album and I told my friend who was in Motown's Marketing Dept. at the time that they were going to have problem selling it. I was right. Even cover art was bad. The album title didn't even make sense.
Well we didn't listen to you over here in Europe where it was a big seller. What did you tell your friend in Motown's Marketing Dept about that? And did you lend your invaluable advice to your friend regarding Mary Wilson's debut album?

vgalindo
07-06-2019, 02:16 AM
Well I loved the album. It was back to classic Diana Ross!!

vgalindo
07-06-2019, 02:17 AM
I actually like the album a lot Luke and Marv.
Hi Roberta. I like it too!

marv2
07-06-2019, 02:20 AM
Well we didn't listen to you over here in Europe where it was a big seller. What did you tell your friend in Motown's Marketing Dept about that? And did you lend your invaluable advice to your friend regarding Mary Wilson's debut album?

It was a bad album. Didn't even make the Hot 100. None of the songs on it even charted at all. The public did not like or buy it. Radio hated it too.

rovereab
07-06-2019, 03:50 AM
It was a bad album. Didn't even make the Hot 100. None of the songs on it even charted at all. The public did not like or buy it. Radio hated it too.

Perhaps from a USA perspective marv2 but the opposite is true in the UK. Fortunately, Diana Ross' popularity isn't USA-centric.

Philles/Motown Gary
07-06-2019, 04:59 AM
I love Diana's "Force Behind The Power" album. Diana was back to doing what she does best -- love songs and power ballads. My favorite tracks are "When You Tell Me That You Love Me"; "Battlefield", "Heart Don't Change My Mind", "One Shining Moment", and "If We Hold On Together".

Surprisingly, Diana's "When You Tell Me That You Love Me" was a hit as a duet with Westlife, although I much prefer her solo version.

Albator
07-06-2019, 06:00 AM
Perhaps from a USA perspective marv2 but the opposite is true in the UK. Fortunately, Diana Ross' popularity isn't USA-centric.true, the early 80’s were very successful for her, she sold large amount of records, uk, Japan, France, Germany...

florence
07-06-2019, 08:00 AM
Than in UK, the Eaten Alive album charted rather high at #8, helped by the number 1 hit Chain Reaction and yet, it's not even silver.

Eaten Alive didn't really sell that well.

On the back of Chain Reaction it climbed into the top 20 but only spent 3 weeks there reaching #11. I think a lot were expecting more songs of the same ilk and were disappointed.

It may or may not have sold 60k to go Silver.

Some people claim that EMI [[and Diana was still under their umbrella in the UK even after her move to RCA) didn't bother claiming certifications on her catalogue after an albums initial sales run and many albums are under-certified

The Greatest Hits 2 album in 1976 sold over 400k but a Platinum certification [[300k) was never claimed.

Albator
07-06-2019, 08:25 AM
Eaten Alive didn't really sell that well.

On the back of Chain Reaction it climbed into the top 20 but only spent 3 weeks there reaching #11. I think a lot were expecting more songs of the same ilk and were disappointed.

It may or may not have sold 60k to go Silver.

Some people claim that EMI [[and Diana was still under their umbrella in the UK even after her move to RCA) didn't bother claiming certifications on her catalogue after an albums initial sales run and many albums are under-certified

The Greatest Hits 2 album in 1976 sold over 400k but a Platinum certification [[300k) was never claimed.

Is she the most undercertified singer in the world?

Roberta75
07-06-2019, 12:21 PM
It was a bad album. Didn't even make the Hot 100. None of the songs on it even charted at all. The public did not like or buy it. Radio hated it too.

In your opinion Luke. You really need to try adding IMO [[in my opinion) when making general statements.

florence
07-06-2019, 01:09 PM
Maybe this is a US/UK thing.

This is my very favourite Diana Ross album packed with great pop tracks, many of which would make good singles and the UK would seem to agree.

We are one of the few territories and indeed maybe the only one where Force outsold the mega diana album and by over 2:1.

Although Diana has numerous Gold albums in the UK Force is the only studio-produced one to be certified Platinum with over 500k sold.

I must admit to some surprise at some of the less than enthusiastic comments about When You Tell Me That You Love Me - it's one of my favourite Diana tracks building to a magnificent crescendo and Diana's vocals are faultless.

In a period of low sales it sold over 300k in the UK and was one of the top 20 selling singles of 1991 and it's almost certain that but for the sad demise of Freddie Mercury and the resultant re-issue of Bohemian Rhapsody Diana would have had her 3rd UK #1.

At the time it was Diana's 5th biggest selling single in the UK.

It received heavy rotation on the UK's leading radio station Radio One and it was such a joy to hear Diana once again ruling the airwaves.

At the time Diana performed three sell-out shows at Wembley Arena.

One Shining Moment another beautiful ballad was an insipired choice for a single here and its success kept the album selling then the issue of If We Hold On Together at Christmas 1992 saw further huge sales for the album - although it stalled at #11 it was one of the UK's top 100 selling singles for that year.

I was sorta miffed because I bought my albums on vinyl at that time and Together wasn't on the vinyl version in the UK!

Change Of Heart seems very popular in some quarters and was destined to be a single and Bluebrock has explained how it kept being replaced by other tracks but while I like it I couldn't see it being more than a moderate hit, reminds me of Getting Ready For Love, slightly lightweight.

Waiting In The Wings with its reggae beat and a great vocal from Diana seemed to me a great candiddate for success in the UK with Diana promoting it.

I wonder why they didn't release a single between Moment and Together but then it probably would have been Change Of Heart.

I really think another successful single could have psuhed the album double Platinum.

Diana herself wanted Heart [[Don't Change My Mind) released as the fifth single but while a nice song it wasn't commercial enough to be a big hit.

My second favourite track on the album is Battlefield written by Nick Lowe and Paul Carrack. It's a really infectious pop/soul number reminiscent of The Supremes and I would have taken a punt on it as a single here.

It would have done nothing or gone mega.

Many sections of the Media which generally wrote Diana's albums off singled this track out for praise.

You're Gonna Love It and You And I are two superior album tracks and for Europe we had the bonus of Diana's successful 1990 r'nb duet with Al B Sure in No Matter What We Do.

Heavy Weather, Blame It On The Sun - not a dud track on Force.

A stunning album superbly marketed by Bluebrock and his team in the UK.

From all reports Motown does seem to have mishandled Force in the US and you do have to wonder how this might have gone down had it been Diana's return album to Motown but maybe after the mid-80s nothing Diana released in her homeland was going to be uber-successful.

Philles/Motown Gary
07-06-2019, 01:09 PM
If the public wasn't buying it, it was most likely because they never had a chance to hear it. Diana was getting little to no airplay here in the U.S at the time. Other than the fans who keep up on such things, most of the public probably didn't even know that the "Force Behind The Power" album was available. Between that and the current-day Motown playing games and screwing her over by purposely delaying the LP release that they KNEW she was out touring and promoting, the LP didn't stand a chance. It was a classic example of Diana working hard to live up to her end of the deal while the new Motown just didn't bother. Disgusting!!!

Philles/Motown Gary
07-06-2019, 01:20 PM
Florence, I didn't see your post in time before posting mine. You made some good points, and I agree with pretty much everything you said except one -- I LOVE "Heart [[Don't Change My Mind). I think it would have made a great single. Everybody I've played it for loved it, too. If it were to get airplay, I think the public would have followed suit.

Albator
07-06-2019, 02:05 PM
Florence, I didn't see your post in time before posting mine. You made some good points, and I agree with pretty much everything you said except one -- I LOVE "Heart [[Don't Change My Mind). I think it would have made a great single. Everybody I've played it for loved it, too. If it were to get airplay, I think the public would have followed suit.In 1984, most of Streisand fans didn't understand it wasn't the single of her Emotion LP

Jaap
07-06-2019, 02:40 PM
I always loved Change of Heart and it would made a logical single choice as it was written by Graham Lyle and Terry Britten, who also wrote "What's Love Got To Do With It." If I remember correctly, the album was initially announced as "Change of Heart" but was changed when Stevie Wonder delivered Force Behind the Power.

Bluebrock
07-06-2019, 03:56 PM
Maybe this is a US/UK thing.

This is my very favourite Diana Ross album packed with great pop tracks, many of which would make good singles and the UK would seem to agree.

We are one of the few territories and indeed maybe the only one where Force outsold the mega diana album and by over 2:1.

Although Diana has numerous Gold albums in the UK Force is the only studio-produced one to be certified Platinum with over 500k sold.

I must admit to some surprise at some of the less than enthusiastic comments about When You Tell Me That You Love Me - it's one of my favourite Diana tracks building to a magnificent crescendo and Diana's vocals are faultless.

In a period of low sales it sold over 300k in the UK and was one of the top 20 selling singles of 1991 and it's almost certain that but for the sad demise of Freddie Mercury and the resultant re-issue of Bohemian Rhapsody Diana would have had her 3rd UK #1.

At the time it was Diana's 5th biggest selling single in the UK.

It received heavy rotation on the UK's leading radio station Radio One and it was such a joy to hear Diana once again ruling the airwaves.

At the time Diana performed three sell-out shows at Wembley Arena.

One Shining Moment another beautiful ballad was an insipired choice for a single here and its success kept the album selling then the issue of If We Hold On Together at Christmas 1992 saw further huge sales for the album - although it stalled at #11 it was one of the UK's top 100 selling singles for that year.

I was sorta miffed because I bought my albums on vinyl at that time and Together wasn't on the vinyl version in the UK!

Change Of Heart seems very popular in some quarters and was destined to be a single and Bluebrock has explained how it kept being replaced by other tracks but while I like it I couldn't see it being more than a moderate hit, reminds me of Getting Ready For Love, slightly lightweight.

Waiting In The Wings with its reggae beat and a great vocal from Diana seemed to me a great candiddate for success in the UK with Diana promoting it.

I wonder why they didn't release a single between Moment and Together but then it probably would have been Change Of Heart.

I really think another successful single could have psuhed the album double Platinum.

Diana herself wanted Heart [[Don't Change My Mind) released as the fifth single but while a nice song it wasn't commercial enough to be a big hit.

My second favourite track on the album is Battlefield written by Nick Lowe and Paul Carrack. It's a really infectious pop/soul number reminiscent of The Supremes and I would have taken a punt on it as a single here.

It would have done nothing or gone mega.

Many sections of the Media which generally wrote Diana's albums off singled this track out for praise.

You're Gonna Love It and You And I are two superior album tracks and for Europe we had the bonus of Diana's successful 1990 r'nb duet with Al B Sure in No Matter What We Do.

Heavy Weather, Blame It On The Sun - not a dud track on Force.

A stunning album superbly marketed by Bluebrock and his team in the UK.

From all reports Motown does seem to have mishandled Force in the US and you do have to wonder how this might have gone down had it been Diana's return album to Motown but maybe after the mid-80s nothing Diana released in her homeland was going to be uber-successful.
Thank you for your kind words. It was a pleasure and an honour to help this great album to be a deserved success in the UK. I still think we could have got another hit out of the album, but we always had to schedule a single release when Diana was available to promote it.
It was a wonderful time for me to be able to work directly with my all time favorite female performer. I will treasure those special times for the rest of my life

Bluebrock
07-06-2019, 04:04 PM
Perhaps from a USA perspective marv2 but the opposite is true in the UK. Fortunately, Diana Ross' popularity isn't USA-centric.

Marv/Luke cannot seem to grasp the fact that there is a market for music outside of the US of A. The whole world does not revolve soley around the USA. Even Mary Wilson occasionally gets the chance to perform outside of the USA. It is a big big world out there, and i have lived and worked in many parts of that big world unlike yourself.
It has broadened my horizons and given me invaluable experience that continues to inspire me to this very day . You need to look at the big picture and realise that life exists and thrives way beyond your limited boundaries.

Bluebrock
07-06-2019, 04:07 PM
Perhaps from a USA perspective marv2 but the opposite is true in the UK. Fortunately, Diana Ross' popularity isn't USA-centric.

Glad that you can understand that rovereab. Sadly a certain person is not as enlightened as your very good self.

rovereab
07-06-2019, 04:49 PM
Glad that you can understand that rovereab. Sadly a certain person is not as enlightened as your very good self.

Thinking about it, I cannot recall a period of time when Diana Ross hasn't been popular in the UK :)

FBTP is a quality release and at the time the crisp sound of the album was quite exceptional. The drum sound and other instruments on the title track are magic on a quality sound system, even to this day.

alanconnor_1
07-06-2019, 05:08 PM
This was a lovely album, which I played to death on release. Still one of my regulars in the CD player. I don’t think there is actually a duff track on it, although the title track and You And I were probably at the bottom, quality wise. I wouldn’t have picked Force as a single, but I expect Diana wanted it.

Waiting In The Wings is beautiful, and a carbon copy of the Andy Hill demo. Battlefield deserved to be a single, and although I used to skip it occasionally, Heavy Weather has grown on me.

I was always waiting for Change Of Heart to be a single. There is a US cassingle out there of it apparently but I’ve never seen firm evidence of it [[same as Bottom Line).

I definitely wouldn’t have put Heart [[Don’t Change My Mind) out as a 5th single. I’d have opted for Change/Battle or Wings. Then maybe Heart as a sixth single. Too many ballads in succession.

Bluebrock
07-06-2019, 05:31 PM
This was a lovely album, which I played to death on release. Still one of my regulars in the CD player. I don’t think there is actually a duff track on it, although the title track and You And I were probably at the bottom, quality wise. I wouldn’t have picked Force as a single, but I expect Diana wanted it.

Waiting In The Wings is beautiful, and a carbon copy of the Andy Hill demo. Battlefield deserved to be a single, and although I used to skip it occasionally, Heavy Weather has grown on me.

I was always waiting for Change Of Heart to be a single. There is a US cassingle out there of it apparently but I’ve never seen firm evidence of it [[same as Bottom Line).

I definitely wouldn’t have put Heart [[Don’t Change My Mind) out as a 5th single. I’d have opted for Change/Battle or Wings. Then maybe Heart as a sixth single. Too many ballads in succession.
Hi Alan. It was Diana herself who pushed for Heart to be a UK single . It was not my ideal choice despite it being a lovely song

Circa 1824
07-06-2019, 06:06 PM
Just before the Force album was released, I had a phone number to someone directly connected to Miss Ross. I called occasionally, and I asked what we could expect. I was told a new single called Change of Heart would be released several weeks before the Force Behind the Power album.

So, that was the initial plan. It is ding-dang shame the plan was changed. BTW, I loved this album. I think it was genius.

vgalindo
07-06-2019, 06:20 PM
I had heard that “Change of Heart” was going to be the title of the album. I wish it wasn’t changed.

Circa 1824
07-06-2019, 06:26 PM
I had heard that “Change of Heart” was going to be the title of the album. I wish it wasn’t changed.

It might have been the initial plan since that was going to be the first single.

PeaceNHarmony
07-06-2019, 06:42 PM
Loved it then, love it now. Fact is there is probably not a single female vocalist active for the past 50 years who would not wish to claim as their own an lp this accomplished and a vocal as superb as WYTMTYLM.

lucky2012
07-06-2019, 07:11 PM
I always loved Change of Heart and it would made a logical single choice as it was written by Graham Lyle and Terry Britten, who also wrote "What's Love Got To Do With It." If I remember correctly, the album was initially announced as "Change of Heart" but was changed when Stevie Wonder delivered Force Behind the Power.
I loved Change of Heart as soon as I heard it and still wish it had been the title song and first single. I also realized the connection with What's Love Got To Do With It and thought Diana might have also had a sizable pop hit. I read that Tina Turner did not like What's Love Got To Do With It [[probably too pop) but Diana's pop credentials are [[almost) as stellar as her status as Motown royalty.

Philles/Motown Gary
07-06-2019, 07:41 PM
In 1984, most of Streisand fans didn't understand it wasn't the single of her Emotion LP

Albator, are you saying that when Barbra's fans heard Diana's version of "Heart [[Don't Change My Mind)", they thought it was Barbra's version they were hearing? That's really weird! You would think that Barbra's own fans would know her voice better than that. I can't imagine hearing Barbra's version and thinking it was Diana!

Albator
07-07-2019, 01:21 AM
Albator, are you saying that when Barbra's fans heard Diana's version of "Heart [[Don't Change My Mind)", they thought it was Barbra's version they were hearing? That's really weird! You would think that Barbra's own fans would know her voice better than that. I can't imagine hearing Barbra's version and thinking it was Diana!
Not at all.
Since you told , that you and your friends, love HDCMM, and thought It should have been a single, It reminds me that when Streisand issued her Emotion LP in 1984, fans were the same.


When the first single from that LP, barely made the top 40, Fans complained that HDCMM was not the second choice and that it was the best track of the lp and all.

Philles/Motown Gary
07-07-2019, 01:32 AM
Not at all.
Since you told , that you and your friends, love HDCMM, and thought It should have been a single, It reminds me that when Streisand issued her Emotion LP in 1984, fans were the same.


When the first single from that LP, barely made the top 40, Fans complained that HDCMM was not the second choice et that it was the best track of the lp and all.
Oh, okay. Now I gotcha!

florence
07-07-2019, 09:14 AM
I just don't see Change Of Heart being anything more than a moderate UK hit but who knows - I thought the Force single would at the very least go top 20.

It must be a UK thing but I wasn't expecting Heart [[DCMM) to do that well.

It came straight on to the chart at #31 and Diana appeared on the UK's premier music show Top Of The Pops that week.

Generally an appearance here would mean increased sales the following week but the song fell to #35 the next week and fell off the chart after 3 weeks.

The UK public just didn't take to it - maybe it should have been released a couple of weeks earlier around St Valentine's day!

Guy
07-07-2019, 02:44 PM
I just don't see Change Of Heart being anything more than a moderate UK hit but who knows - I thought the Force single would at the very least go top 20.

"Change of Heart" really does sound like an outtake from Olivia Newton-John's "Physical" album 10 years earlier in 1980. And that's no shade on ONJ because she's fabulous. But I agree there was no potential for that track as a single in 1991 [[or 1992).

I know appreciation of FBTP is a matter of personal taste. Some listeners will enjoy the album and others will not. I understand it was a successful album in the UK. Really, it is astounding to me that the album found an audience anywhere. However, for a global superstar of her stature having a successful album in the UK is small comfort if it flops hard in the US -- a market several times larger than the UK.

There was tremendous potential for Ross in the early 90s if she worked with musical collaborators [[Narada, Jam & Lewis, Babyface, etc.) who could have helped her craft a solid urban contemporary project. At that time in the US, she was really only relevant to urban audiences. Her support would have come from R&B/Soul radio and, as noted by Reese and others, she made notable appearances on BET and Arsenio in the run up to FBTP. As well with the promise that Stevie Wonder was writing her a fantastic song.

FTBP fails to demonstrate creative, commercial or aesthetic growth. Ross was essentially a commercial artist, her acclaim and celebrity is historically linked to her ability to appeal to a mass audience. FBTP created enduring disappointment among [[younger) American Ross fans who experienced its release in real-time and wanted her to remain relevant alongside her contemporaries. Even "Workin' Overtime" was a Top 5 R&B hit.

As of FBTP, Ross completely ceased being a commercial entity in the U.S. She had no further chart hits on either R&B or Pop charts. In Los Angeles -- a huge market -- I never heard any song from FBTP, TMH or EIAND on the radio. All while Aretha, Cher, Patti Labelle, Bette Midler and Gladys were still enjoying airplay with new music, commercial success and acclaim.

daviddh
07-07-2019, 06:15 PM
Great album that was marketed wrong.
Should have been huge

marv2
07-07-2019, 06:32 PM
This album was so bad that they couldn't get ANY radio stations to play it. I think Motown was at a loss as to how to promote it. Oh well.

daviddh
07-07-2019, 08:03 PM
Motown wasn't even Motown anymore.
It was Motown that was bad not the album.it should have been marketed as adult contemporary style album

daviddh
07-07-2019, 08:04 PM
Change of heart was great

Albator
07-08-2019, 01:44 AM
This album was so bad that they couldn't get ANY radio stations to play it. I think Motown was at a loss as to how to promote it. Oh well.
This is the third post where you keep saying the same... Do you think you are misunderstood or do you except something else.

vgalindo
07-08-2019, 02:04 AM
This is the third post where you keep saying the same... Do you think you are misunderstood or do you except something else.
He’s just being his normal troll self. Lol. Smdh.

Bluebrock
07-08-2019, 02:16 AM
He’s just being his normal troll self. Lol. Smdh.
Ain't that the truth.

Ollie9
07-08-2019, 04:57 AM
"Change of Heart" really does sound like an outtake from Olivia Newton-John's "Physical" album 10 years earlier in 1980. And that's no shade on ONJ because she's fabulous. But I agree there was no potential for that track as a single in 1991 [[or 1992).

I know appreciation of FBTP is a matter of personal taste. Some listeners will enjoy the album and others will not. I understand it was a successful album in the UK. Really, it is astounding to me that the album found an audience anywhere. However, for a global superstar of her stature having a successful album in the UK is small comfort if it flops hard in the US -- a market several times larger than the UK.

There was tremendous potential for Ross in the early 90s if she worked with musical collaborators [[Narada, Jam & Lewis, Babyface, etc.) who could have helped her craft a solid urban contemporary project. At that time in the US, she was really only relevant to urban audiences. Her support would have come from R&B/Soul radio and, as noted by Reese and others, she made notable appearances on BET and Arsenio in the run up to FBTP. As well with the promise that Stevie Wonder was writing her a fantastic song.

FTBP fails to demonstrate creative, commercial or aesthetic growth. Ross was essentially a commercial artist, her acclaim and celebrity is historically linked to her ability to appeal to a mass audience. FBTP created enduring disappointment among [[younger) American Ross fans who experienced its release in real-time and wanted her to remain relevant alongside her contemporaries. Even "Workin' Overtime" was a Top 5 R&B hit.

As of FBTP, Ross completely ceased being a commercial entity in the U.S. She had no further chart hits on either R&B or Pop charts. In Los Angeles -- a huge market -- I never heard any song from FBTP, TMH or EIAND on the radio. All while Aretha, Cher, Patti Labelle, Bette Midler and Gladys were still enjoying airplay with new music, commercial success and acclaim.

I agree with some of what you post Guy but in all truth Diana could have put out the most relevant and contemporary R & B album of the year [[91) and it still would not have sold in America. There are many reasons as to why.
As regards FBTP, it was not just the UK where it hit big. It also sold well in Japan and throughout Europe. Perhaps this success was due to the very fact that Diana was not trying to follow any trends with this one. I still regard it as a solid set of pop songs, it's the vanilla production that lets it down in places...

vgalindo
07-08-2019, 05:51 AM
"Change of Heart" really does sound like an outtake from Olivia Newton-John's "Physical" album 10 years earlier in 1980. And that's no shade on ONJ because she's fabulous. But I agree there was no potential for that track as a single in 1991 [[or 1992).

I know appreciation of FBTP is a matter of personal taste. Some listeners will enjoy the album and others will not. I understand it was a successful album in the UK. Really, it is astounding to me that the album found an audience anywhere. However, for a global superstar of her stature having a successful album in the UK is small comfort if it flops hard in the US -- a market several times larger than the UK.

There was tremendous potential for Ross in the early 90s if she worked with musical collaborators [[Narada, Jam & Lewis, Babyface, etc.) who could have helped her craft a solid urban contemporary project. At that time in the US, she was really only relevant to urban audiences. Her support would have come from R&B/Soul radio and, as noted by Reese and others, she made notable appearances on BET and Arsenio in the run up to FBTP. As well with the promise that Stevie Wonder was writing her a fantastic song.

FTBP fails to demonstrate creative, commercial or aesthetic growth. Ross was essentially a commercial artist, her acclaim and celebrity is historically linked to her ability to appeal to a mass audience. FBTP created enduring disappointment among [[younger) American Ross fans who experienced its release in real-time and wanted her to remain relevant alongside her contemporaries. Even "Workin' Overtime" was a Top 5 R&B hit.

As of FBTP, Ross completely ceased being a commercial entity in the U.S. She had no further chart hits on either R&B or Pop charts. In Los Angeles -- a huge market -- I never heard any song from FBTP, TMH or EIAND on the radio. All while Aretha, Cher, Patti Labelle, Bette Midler and Gladys were still enjoying airplay with new music, commercial success and acclaim.
Diana Ross was not the only veteran artist who was struggling to have commercial success during the 90s. I bought every Gladys Knight album during this time. And they were all really good but I don’t remember her having any really big commercial hits either except for “Missing You” that she collaborated with Brandy, Tamia, and Chaka Khan that hit #2 on the R&B charts. Diana also hit #4 on the R&B charts with Al B Sure “No Matter What you do”. And looking at Patti LaBelle she really didn’t have any big commercial success in the 90s either.

Albator
07-08-2019, 06:05 AM
Diana Ross was not the only veteran artist who was struggling to have commercial success during the 90s. I bought every Gladys Knight album during this time. And they were all really good but I don’t remember her having any really big commercial hits either except for “Missing You” that she collaborated with Brandy, Tamia, and Chaka Khan that hit #2 on the R&B charts. Diana also hit #4 on the R&B charts with Al B Sure “No Matter What you do”. And looking at Patti LaBelle she really didn’t have any big commercial success in the 90s either.Diana was out, like Olivia Newton John. The Eaten Alive review in 85, predicted the same fate for the two singers, for the same reason. They were right, except that Diana maintained her iconic super Diva status.
Except for one unexpected hit, Donna was on the same boat.

lucky2012
07-08-2019, 12:16 PM
"Change of Heart" really does sound like an outtake from Olivia Newton-John's "Physical" album 10 years earlier in 1980. And that's no shade on ONJ because she's fabulous. But I agree there was no potential for that track as a single in 1991 [[or 1992).

I know appreciation of FBTP is a matter of personal taste. Some listeners will enjoy the album and others will not. I understand it was a successful album in the UK. Really, it is astounding to me that the album found an audience anywhere. However, for a global superstar of her stature having a successful album in the UK is small comfort if it flops hard in the US -- a market several times larger than the UK.

There was tremendous potential for Ross in the early 90s if she worked with musical collaborators [[Narada, Jam & Lewis, Babyface, etc.) who could have helped her craft a solid urban contemporary project. At that time in the US, she was really only relevant to urban audiences. Her support would have come from R&B/Soul radio and, as noted by Reese and others, she made notable appearances on BET and Arsenio in the run up to FBTP. As well with the promise that Stevie Wonder was writing her a fantastic song.

FTBP fails to demonstrate creative, commercial or aesthetic growth. Ross was essentially a commercial artist, her acclaim and celebrity is historically linked to her ability to appeal to a mass audience. FBTP created enduring disappointment among [[younger) American Ross fans who experienced its release in real-time and wanted her to remain relevant alongside her contemporaries. Even "Workin' Overtime" was a Top 5 R&B hit.

As of FBTP, Ross completely ceased being a commercial entity in the U.S. She had no further chart hits on either R&B or Pop charts. In Los Angeles -- a huge market -- I never heard any song from FBTP, TMH or EIAND on the radio. All while Aretha, Cher, Patti Labelle, Bette Midler and Gladys were still enjoying airplay with new music, commercial success and acclaim.


Thanks for a thoughtful post. I agree and disagree with some of your thoughts. "Change of Heart" connects Diana more with Tina Turner as it was written by Terry Britten and Graham Lyle, the composers of "What's Love Got To Do With It", Tina's 1984 global pop hit. I had hoped Diana could and would also hit big in 1991. Admittedly, it was a few years later and it was the time for Whitney, Janet & Mariah. [[I wonder how it would have played if Change of Heart was on Diana's Swept Away album in 1984?)
Diana's connection with Olivia is with "It's Your Move" [[on Swept Away), which was written by Steve Kipner and Terry Shaddick, who had written "Physical", ONJ's 1981 global pop hit. Unlike "Change of Heart", I thought "It's Your Move" was just a nice-enough album track, not a potential hit single. [[I guess that's what you think of "Change".)

I agree that appreciation of FBHTP is a personal matter but I'm not at all astounded by it's reception in the UK and elsewhere. I think it deserved its success and was happy to know about it. I guess nations or "markets" can have their own "personal" tastes. :)
I think Diana did reach out to the urban contemporary market as the 90's progressed. "Take Me Higher", after all, was written and produced by Narada Michael Walden and on that album the beautiful "Gone" was written by Jon John of Babyface's production company. "Keep It Right There" even had a co-writer credit for Babyface. I loved Diana's interpretation of Brenda Russell's "Let Somebody Know".
FBTP was not a creative or aesthetic extension but neither was it just "following a trend" as Ollie9 pointed out. I welcomed a return-to-form after WO [[a matter of personal taste).
In the 90's, Mariah, Whitney, Celine & Janet reigned. All of the previous generation of female superstars had to make way. Through it all, up to the present year, as Albator stated, "Diana has maintained her iconic super Diva status", along with Barbra, Aretha, Cher and Bette.

Albator
07-08-2019, 01:37 PM
Thanks for a thoughtful post. I agree and disagree with some of your thoughts. "Change of Heart" connects Diana more with Tina Turner as it was written by Terry Britten and Graham Lyle, the composers of "What's Love Got To Do With It", Tina's 1984 global pop hit. I had hoped Diana could and would also hit big in 1991. Admittedly, it was a few years later and it was the time for Whitney, Janet & Mariah. [[I wonder how it would have played if Change of Heart was on Diana's Swept Away album in 1984?)
Diana's connection with Olivia is with "It's Your Move" [[on Swept Away), which was written by Steve Kipner and Terry Shaddick, who had written "Physical", ONJ's 1981 global pop hit. Unlike "Change of Heart", I thought "It's Your Move" was just a nice-enough album track, not a potential hit single. [[I guess that's what you think of "Change".)

Terry Britten and Graham Lyle wrote "toughen up" for Olivia in 1985, her "Soul Kiss" album. But it was a flop

Guy
07-08-2019, 02:55 PM
I appreciate thoughtful discussion on FBTP. It is just an unwelcome blip in her recording career for me, I am heartened that so many of her fans like it. I felt she let us down with it but clearly others feel very differently. It's great that FBTP inspires so much discussion [[and goodwill) 30 years after the fact. She's still The Boss.


Thanks for a thoughtful post. I agree and disagree with some of your thoughts. "Change of Heart" connects Diana more with Tina Turner as it was written by Terry Britten and Graham Lyle, the composers of "What's Love Got To Do With It", Tina's 1984 global pop hit. I had hoped Diana could and would also hit big in 1991. Admittedly, it was a few years later and it was the time for Whitney, Janet & Mariah. [[I wonder how it would have played if Change of Heart was on Diana's Swept Away album in 1984?)
Diana's connection with Olivia is with "It's Your Move" [[on Swept Away), which was written by Steve Kipner and Terry Shaddick, who had written "Physical", ONJ's 1981 global pop hit. Unlike "Change of Heart", I thought "It's Your Move" was just a nice-enough album track, not a potential hit single. [[I guess that's what you think of "Change".)

Terry Britten and Graham Lyle wrote "toughen up" for Olivia in 1985, her "Soul Kiss" album. But it was a flop

That's funny. I hadn't intended to suggest any actual connection between ONJ and Ross. ONJ is just my go-to to describe decidedly pop music. "Change of Heart" has the same vanilla bounce as some of ONJ early-80s tracks like "Tied Up" and "Make A Move On Me." She could have recorded "Change of Heart" in 1981 and had a moderate hit with it. Tina Turner NEVER would have recorded "Change of Heat" in the late 80s or early 90s. It no longer sounded like hit in the commercial landscape of 1991.


Diana Ross was not the only veteran artist who was struggling to have commercial success during the 90s. I bought every Gladys Knight album during this time. And they were all really good but I don’t remember her having any really big commercial hits either except for "Missing You" that she collaborated with Brandy, Tamia, and Chaka Khan that hit #2 on the R&B charts. Diana also hit #4 on the R&B charts with Al B Sure "No Matter What you do". And looking at Patti LaBelle she really didn’t have any big commercial success in the 90s either.

Interestingly, in 1991, Gladys and Patti recorded for MCA Records, its black music division was under the supervision of Jheryl Busby -- who was also head of Motown. FBTP was released a few months after Gladys Knight's "Good Woman" and a month before Patti Labelle's "Burnin." Gladys and Patti were both certified gold in the US. Gladys had a No. 1 R&B hit with "Men" and Patti had THREE top 5 R&B hits off of "Burnin." Patti also won her first Grammy for "Burnin." If Jheryl Busby was able to get Patti and Gladys to those commercial heights, imagine what he could have done with a solid, radio-friendly urban contemporary project from the Queen of Motown.

True story -- in October-ish 1991, I went to Wherehouse Records [[RIP) to buy Patti Labelle's "Burnin'" and Vanessa Williams' "Comfort Zone." I was just browsing and -- bam -- there was Diana Ross's FBTP! I wasn't even aware that it had been released. The wait had been so long and then it dropped with no publicity. So I bought all three on the same day. I only listened to FBTP once -- disappointed. I listened to "Burnin" and "Comfort Zone" regularly.

Though Vanessa Williams is obviously of a younger generation, "Comfort Zone" had a very adult-contemporary vibe and was exactly the type of project that would have suited Ross at that point. It was loaded with Ross-like pop/soul ballads -- "Saved The Best For Last", "Goodbye", "Just For Tonight", "One Reason", etc. And Ross could have managed the uptempo songs too. "Comfort Zone" was certified 3x platinum in the U.S. As lucky2012 noted, it is exactly the type of urban contemporary transition she attempted [[too late) with "Take Me Higher." The damage had already been done with FBTP.


I agree with some of what you post Guy but in all truth Diana could have put out the most relevant and contemporary R & B album of the year [[91) and it still would not have sold in America. There are many reasons as to why.


I am sure some of the insiders here know something about the relationship between Jheryl Busby and Ross and that could explain why her U.S. recording career floundered under his watch. Please share...

Ollie9
07-08-2019, 04:41 PM
^ .
1. New artists such as Whitney, Janet and Mariah now ruled so pop radio was not behind her.
2. Diana was now older, and America is not known for it's loyalty regarding veteran artists.
3. Diana still insisted on total control and i'm sure would not have listened to any advice were it given.
4. Possibly, perhaps and maybe America had fallen a litlle out of love with her since the M.W book.

daviddh
07-08-2019, 07:05 PM
^ .
1. New artists such as Whitney, Janet and Mariah now ruled so pop radio was not behind her.
2. Diana was now older, and America is not known for it's loyalty regarding veteran artists.
3. Diana still insisted on total control and i'm sure would not have listened to any advice were it given.
4. Possibly, perhaps and maybe America had fallen a litlle out of love with her since the M.W book.

Totally agree. The book did a lot of damage and unfortunately no one was doing any damage control. And Motown 25 didn't help the way it was edited

Albator
07-09-2019, 12:54 AM
Totally agree. The book did a lot of damage and unfortunately no one was doing any damage control. And Motown 25 didn't help the way it was edited
Even if it is against this forum trend to say so, I think that everything she is criticized for, has become an accepted rule for the current black performers.
She and Berry Gordy were ahead of their time.

Ollie9
07-09-2019, 04:06 AM
Even if it is against this forum trend to say so, I think that everything she is criticized for, has become an accepted rule for the current black performers.
She and Berry Gordy were ahead of their time.

Diana's career was totally controlled by Berry Gordy. He made the decisions. When she left motown she made some really bad career decisions. What is the accepted rule Albatar, i'm confused?.

Albator
07-09-2019, 04:26 AM
Diana's career was totally controlled by Berry Gordy. He made the decisions. When she left motown she made some really bad career decisions. What is the accepted rule Albatar, i'm confused?.Not in this section of the forum. All those consideration about what is a « true » r&b singer, a « true » soul singer and all... ridiculous when it comes to Diana Ross IMO. She is much broader then that

I wonder how many "true" soul or R&B singers and especially from Motown, could sing along Placido Domingo and Jose Carrera, and not be out of place!

And she did that, the same month she did her Jazz concert in NY and also promoted her FBTP album.

Not that bad

RanRan79
07-09-2019, 08:18 AM
I've said it before and I'll say it again: nothing in Mary Wilson's books caused people to vow "I'll never buy that witch's music ever again!" For the anti Ross crowd [[who tend to be pro Wilson) the book dropped at the right time in Diana's career. What if Mary had written the book during The Boss period? Does anyone believe that it would've killed any possible success of the 1980 album or it's singles? I sure don't. What killed the public on Diana by the 90s is that her last two albums for RCA sucked butt and then she was MIA for a handful of years after marrying and having two children in a very short period of time. When she finally reappeared, her first new Motown album didn't even resonate with her core fan base so of course the general public was less than enthused despite the success of the title single. And from what I've read in this thread, Motown apparently bungled [[once again) the publicity for the FBTP album. None of that makes an artists in her 40s a continued hit maker if someone with a lot of power isn't pushing in her corner.

While Black folks could sometimes be the hardest on Diana, we also were the ones who rocked with her the longest. So even after Mary's book, years after the book, Diana was still able to make it into the top 5 r&b twice [[of course one of those was with Al). And Motown 25 didn't cut into her sales either because a year after that Diana hit big not only with "Swept Away" and "Missing You" but with their parent album also. Mary's book gave the media something to talk about, which gave the folks at home something to talk about. But had Diana been dropping the kind of music that sounded as good and relevant as the junior divas who were hitting big at this time, we'd be talking about this point in her music history a little differently.

The biggest blow from Mary's book was to her relationship with Diana. Diana herself was the biggest blow to her own career.

Ollie9
07-09-2019, 08:42 AM
Not in this section of the forum. All those consideration about what is a « true » r&b singer, a « true » soul singer and all... ridiculous when it comes to Diana Ross IMO. She is much broader then that

I wonder how many "true" soul or R&B singers and especially from Motown, could sing along Placido Domingo and Jose Carrera, and not be out of place!

And she did that, the same month she did her Jazz concert in NY and also promoted her FBTP album.

Not that bad

Diana has always been an extremely versaltile artist Albator. Having said that it is not always a wise decision to alienate your core fan base with over experimentation. A little can be a good thing, but an artist needs to have some self awareness as to what their fans want to hear and what made them famous in the first place. It's a fine line.
Retuning to topic, as far as the USA was concerned Diana had comitted the cardinal sin of getting older. For the most part America has never been loyal to veteran artists. To rest of the world it was of no matter and it continued to enjoy some of the wonderful music Diana was releasing throughout the 90's.....For me from 89.

Bluebrock
07-09-2019, 10:51 AM
I've said it before and I'll say it again: nothing in Mary Wilson's books caused people to vow "I'll never buy that witch's music ever again!" For the anti Ross crowd [[who tend to be pro Wilson) the book dropped at the right time in Diana's career. What if Mary had written the book during The Boss period? Does anyone believe that it would've killed any possible success of the 1980 album or it's singles? I sure don't. What killed the public on Diana by the 90s is that her last two albums for RCA sucked butt and then she was MIA for a handful of years after marrying and having two children in a very short period of time. When she finally reappeared, her first new Motown album didn't even resonate with her core fan base so of course the general public was less than enthused despite the success of the title single. And from what I've read in this thread, Motown apparently bungled [[once again) the publicity for the FBTP album. None of that makes an artists in her 40s a continued hit maker if someone with a lot of power isn't pushing in her corner.

While Black folks could sometimes be the hardest on Diana, we also were the ones who rocked with her the longest. So even after Mary's book, years after the book, Diana was still able to make it into the top 5 r&b twice [[of course one of those was with Al). And Motown 25 didn't cut into her sales either because a year after that Diana hit big not only with "Swept Away" and "Missing You" but with their parent album also. Mary's book gave the media something to talk about, which gave the folks at home something to talk about. But had Diana been dropping the kind of music that sounded as good and relevant as the junior divas who were hitting big at this time, we'd be talking about this point in her music history a little differently.

The biggest blow from Mary's book was to her relationship with Diana. Diana herself was the biggest blow to her own career.
It certainly did not prevent me from not buying Diana's music. Whether that is true of other people is very much open to debate.

Philles/Motown Gary
07-09-2019, 01:09 PM
1) Nothing in Mary Wilson's books caused people to vow "I'll never buy that witch's music ever again!"

2) What killed the public on Diana by the 90s is that her last two albums for RCA sucked.

3) And from what I've read in this thread, Motown apparently bungled [[once again) the publicity for the FBTP album.

4) While Black folks could sometimes be the hardest on Diana, we also were the ones who rocked with her the longest. .

1) Not true, Ran. I know people personally who were totally turned off to Diana after reading Mary's book. Worse yet, I tuned in to a talk-radio station one day [[back in the day) in time to hear the announcer trashing Diana because of that book. [[Don't get me wrong -- I enjoyed reading Mary's book, but it never turned me off to the music. Unless they're an ax murderer, I keep the artist separate from the art.) That book did indeed destroy Diana's reputation at the time.

2) The majority of John Q. Public wasn't even aware of Diana's last 2 RCA albums, nor would they have cared.

3) Publicity? They dropped the ball by not releasing the "Force Behind The Power" album when the were supposed to. Diana was out on tour promoting it while the powers that be sat on their duffs, twiddling their thumbs, wondering which single to release from it before releasing the album. People who attended her concerts couldn't run to the store to buy it because there was nothing to buy.

4) I resent that! Some of us white folk have been faithful to Diana [[AND to Motown) since 1964, having bought nearly every note of music she's ever recorded. And we STILL are! While attending her concert 5 years ago, I couldn't help but notice that the majority of the audience was white. Where were the black folks dancing that night? It wasn't with Diana!

Albator
07-09-2019, 01:37 PM
1) Not true, Ran. I know people personally who were totally turned off to Diana after reading Mary's book. Worse yet, I tuned in to a talk-radio station one day [[back in the day) in time to hear the announcer trashing Diana because of that book. [[Don't get me wrong -- I enjoyed reading Mary's book, but it never turned me off to the music. Unless they're an ax murderer, I keep the artist separate from the art.) That book did indeed destroy Diana's reputation at the time.
They were just waiting for something to express that resentment they harbored for years. The book helped them, and Taraborelli reenforced them.
Those things and Diana own ego-trip echoed the idea of a temperamental, dangerous, agressive diva. Just listen the fun documentary about the taping of Diva 2000.
I'v encountered her once, in Paris, I was the only one to recognize her and she was so sweet and happy to see a fan. It's a beautiful moment but we all know she can be very difficult or hard to follow to be more diplomatic.
And also the music wasn't that great, and the age, and the difficulty to be trendy after so many years and albums.

RanRan79
07-09-2019, 02:03 PM
1) Not true, Ran. I know people personally who were totally turned off to Diana after reading Mary's book. Worse yet, I tuned in to a talk-radio station one day [[back in the day) in time to hear the announcer trashing Diana because of that book. [[Don't get me wrong -- I enjoyed reading Mary's book, but it never turned me off to the music. Unless they're an ax murderer, I keep the artist separate from the art.) That book did indeed destroy Diana's reputation at the time.

2) The majority of John Q. Public wasn't even aware of Diana's last 2 RCA albums, nor would they have cared.

3) Publicity? They dropped the ball by not releasing the "Force Behind The Power" album when the were supposed to. Diana was out on tour promoting it while the powers that be sat on their duffs, twiddling their thumbs, wondering which single to release from it before releasing the album. People who attended her concerts couldn't run to the store to buy it because there was nothing to buy.

4) I resent that! Some of us white folk have been faithful to Diana [[AND to Motown) since 1964, having bought nearly every note of music she's ever recorded. And we STILL are! While attending her concert 5 years ago, I couldn't help but notice that the majority of the audience was white. Where were the black folks dancing that night? It wasn't with Diana!

I can't speak to your experiences Gary. If you heard people say that they would never support Diana Ross' music in the wake of Dreamgirl, I have to take your word for it. But I've never heard it. Even as the people around me might talk about Diana's attitude or lament the way "poor Flo" was treated, they were still turning the radio up when Ross cuts came on. I grew up in Chicagoland and "Workin Overtime" got much airplay and I knew Black people who owned the single. I suspect that if anyone truly decided that they would not purchase anything Diana Ross again because of Mary's allegations, they were typically not people who would have, or had ever, purchased her music before. So for me they become a moot point.

The general public knew about those last two Diana RCA albums because [[a) they were on the shelves, [[b) in the case of Eaten Alive, the album contained a semi hit and two music videos that got airplay, and [[c) in the case of RHRAB the album had a whole television special tie in. The fact was people knew about the albums and they left them on the shelves because they sucked. Take opined adjectives out of the equation like "sucked" and you're still left with the fact that the last two RCA albums flopped. Two back to back flop albums, a 3 or 4 year absence from the public eye and then return with two more flop albums? Mary's book couldn't do anything against that. Mary could've written a book about how great and wonderful Diana Ross is and the public still wouldn't have run out and bought WO or FBTB.

Yes, I said "publicity". In my mind if you don't release the damn album, that kind of screws with the publicity, does it not? What's the use in Ross touring and singing the songs on television if there's no product for people to buy? And again, Mary's book had nothing to do with that.

I can not tell you what not to resent. That's your business. If you were offended, that was not my intention, but I apologize for nothing. While I made a generalizing statement regarding the Black community, my statement was not made to suggest that all white people discontinued their support any more than my statement sought to suggest that all Black people supported her. But my original opinion still stands. When white radio passed on Diana, Black radio continued their support [[until it was painfully obvious that there was a ton of better material by other artists worth listening to). When the white fans stopped buying her music, the Black ones were still picking it up [[until it became painfully obvious that there was a ton of better material by other artists worth paying for). And when the larger white entertainment industry all but ignored Ross when passing out superlative adjectives and awards, the Black entertainment industry was still bestowing these upon her, even when she wasn't always available [[or wouldn't always make herself available) to accept these in person. Your concert anecdote is not surprising. In the case of many of our legends, and even current hitmaking Black entertainers, the audience is often overwhelmingly white. Mary Wilson's book has nothing do with any of it.

Albator
07-09-2019, 02:15 PM
The music industry was never generous to Berry Gordy and Diana Ross, even on their heydays, so there are no reason they were going to be when she wasn't successful.
But the industry isn't the general public and Diana had hits on AC stations and Dancefloor.

But Ranran79 analysis are valid to me.

Ollie9
07-09-2019, 02:33 PM
I don't really want to get into the topic as to which colour of fan proved the most loyal, but how does all this account for the fact that Diana still sold well throughout Europe, particularly in the UK. It was only America that turned it's back.

Albator
07-09-2019, 02:38 PM
I don't really want to get into the topic as to which colour of fan proved the most loyal, but how does all this account for the fact that Diana still sold well throughout Europe, particularly in the UK. It was only America that turned it's back.And Japan!
If she continued to do well, especially compared to Dionne Warwick, Gladys Knight or even Donna and Aretha, it's nothing compared to Tina Turner or the new girls from the 80's and 90's. On the other hand Tina was non consistant before her comeback

RanRan79
07-09-2019, 06:19 PM
I don't really want to get into the topic as to which colour of fan proved the most loyal, but how does all this account for the fact that Diana still sold well throughout Europe, particularly in the UK. It was only America that turned it's back.

My guess is that Europeans never read Dreamgirl: My Life As a Supreme.:p:rolleyes:

I brought race into the conversation only to point out that the Black community can be among Diana's biggest detractors and yet at the same time her biggest champions. I in no way meant to slight any race of people or make the topic of Diana's "irrelevancy" all about race.

I must add that even when Diana Ross was the reigning queen of entertainment, most of her singles and all of her albums did better r&b than pop. For the record I didn't just pull my observations about Diana Ross and race out of my ass, although it is important to note that I am speaking specifically about the United States and not elsewhere in the world.

Bluebrock
07-10-2019, 02:32 AM
My guess is that Europeans never read Dreamgirl: My Life As a Supreme.:p:rolleyes:

I brought race into the conversation only to point out that the Black community can be among Diana's biggest detractors and yet at the same time her biggest champions. I in no way meant to slight any race of people or make the topic of Diana's "irrelevancy" all about race.

I must add that even when Diana Ross was the reigning queen of entertainment, most of her singles and all of her albums did better r&b than pop. For the record I didn't just pull my observations about Diana Ross and race out of my ass, although it is important to note that I am speaking specifically about the United States and not elsewhere in the world.
You may have a point. Dreamgirls had nowhere near the impact in the UK and Europe that it had in the States. I remember seeing dozens of copies in a publishers clearance store within months of it being published. That is when i purchased it for next to nothing.

Ollie9
07-10-2019, 05:17 AM
My guess is that Europeans never read Dreamgirl: My Life As a Supreme.:p:rolleyes:

I brought race into the conversation only to point out that the Black community can be among Diana's biggest detractors and yet at the same time her biggest champions. I in no way meant to slight any race of people or make the topic of Diana's "irrelevancy" all about race.

I must add that even when Diana Ross was the reigning queen of entertainment, most of her singles and all of her albums did better r&b than pop. For the record I didn't just pull my observations about Diana Ross and race out of my ass, although it is important to note that I am speaking specifically about the United States and not elsewhere in the world.

I agree with Bluebrock in that the M.W book did not make quite the huge splash here in the UK that it did in the USA. American ideology tends to compartmentlize it's artists. Your either a sinner or a saint, old or young, hot or cold.... Far less so in Europe.

In my own personal experience, the black community in general have proved far more critical of Diana's career, believing she sold out years ago. I think the point that Gary made about Diana's concerts being attended predominantly by white fans has always been true.

Glad to hear your observations were not pulled out of that particular orifice dear lol. I do understand though the point you were making about black radio.:cool:

florence
07-10-2019, 06:20 AM
In the UK over the years any of Diana's concerts I was at was a mix of all ages and races.

florence
07-10-2019, 06:39 AM
It could have been worse, many fans tend to forget that apart from the Julio Igesias duet Missing You was suffering the same fate as all of Diana's singles since Muscles in 1982 - it had peaked somewhere around the 40's and was falling down the chart when Diana performed it on The American Music Awards in early 1985 introducing it a wide audience and causing the record to do a yo-yo and give her her last [[to date!) big US hit.

Albator
07-10-2019, 08:26 AM
It could have been worse, many fans tend to forget that apart from the Julio Igesias duet Missing You was suffering the same fate as all of Diana's singles since Muscles in 1982 - it had peaked somewhere around the 40's and was falling down the chart when Diana performed it on The American Music Awards in early 1985 introducing it a wide audience and causing the record to do a yo-yo and give her her last [[to date!) big US hit.she performed Missing You???

reese
07-10-2019, 08:57 AM
she performed Missing You???

She didn't perform it. She did a tribute to recently deceased stars Count Basie, Ernest Tubb, and Jackie Wilson. Then she talked about Marvin and they showed some of the MISSING YOU video.

Note: Even though the record wasn't a big hit on pop radio at the time, it was already in the Top 10 on the soul chart, which was noted by Lionel Richie when he introduced her.

Albator
07-10-2019, 10:29 AM
She didn't perform it. She did a tribute to recently deceased stars Count Basie, Ernest Tubb, and Jackie Wilson. Then she talked about Marvin and they showed some of the MISSING YOU video.

Note: Even though the record wasn't a big hit on pop radio at the time, it was already in the Top 10 on the soul chart, which was noted by Lionel Richie when he introduced her.
In Billboard, the single is #5 in a pure sales charts that lasted a few issues. It’s 10 on Billboard hot 100 so we see how cautious one has to be when it comes to charts.

RanRan79
07-10-2019, 12:17 PM
I agree with Bluebrock in that the M.W book did not make quite the huge splash here in the UK that it did in the USA. American ideology tends to compartmentlize it's artists. Your either a sinner or a saint, old or young, hot or cold.... Far less so in Europe.

Yes! That's a perfect way of describing the fickleness of the public here. I've often heard it said that Europe is far less uptight than the US is. It should come as no surprise that there would be a difference in the way artists are appreciated between the two.


In my own personal experience, the black community in general have proved far more critical of Diana's career, believing she sold out years ago. I think the point that Gary made about Diana's concerts being attended predominantly by white fans has always been true.

More critical, which was my point, but never forgetting her or pushing her off her pedestal [[except the ones who get into pointless debates about "soulful"). The white community, apparently aside from her core fans, left Ross behind long before we ever did. I was shocked when Ross was proclaimed Entertainer of the Century [[was it Rolling Stone?). She usually didn't rate such accolades from "mainstream" media at that point.


Glad to hear your observations were not pulled out of that particular orifice dear lol. I do understand though the point you were making about black radio.:cool:

You can't be any more glad than I my friend. That would be a very painful extraction of information, for sure.;)

reese
07-10-2019, 01:17 PM
I was shocked when Ross was proclaimed Entertainer of the Century [[was it Rolling Stone?). She usually didn't rate such accolades from "mainstream" media at that point.




It was Billboard who proclaimed her the Female Entertainer of the Century in 1976. They gave her the award when she co-hosted the second Rock Awards.

Ollie9
07-11-2019, 06:03 AM
Yes! That's a perfect way of describing the fickleness of the public here. I've often heard it said that Europe is far less uptight than the US is. It should come as no surprise that there would be a difference in the way artists are appreciated between the two.

More critical, which was my point, but never forgetting her or pushing her off her pedestal [[except the ones who get into pointless debates about "soulful"). The white community, apparently aside from her core fans, left Ross behind long before we ever did. I was shocked when Ross was proclaimed Entertainer of the Century [[was it Rolling Stone?). She usually didn't rate such accolades from "mainstream" media at that point.

But but but, if as you say the white community left Diana behind long ago, how does this account for her concert audiences [[and i have attended a lot of Ross concerts over the years) being predominantly white?. It does not add up.

florence
07-11-2019, 08:29 AM
Not forgetting that in 1993 the Guinness Book of World Records declared her the most successful female recording artist of all time.

RanRan79
07-11-2019, 11:06 AM
It was Billboard who proclaimed her the Female Entertainer of the Century in 1976. They gave her the award when she co-hosted the second Rock Awards.

Ah okay, that's what it was. I wonder why I thought it was from around 2000? Thanks for the correction Reese.

RanRan79
07-11-2019, 11:30 AM
But but but, if as you say the white community left Diana behind long ago, how does this account for her concert audiences [[and i have attended a lot of Ross concerts over the years) being predominantly white?. It does not add up.

Diana Ross is a mega legend. People will go see her show no matter what. But when it came to purchasing the music, playing the music, and honoring Diana Ross after the hits stopped coming in, that was us with few exceptions. The legends will always get people in the seats. I saw a concert Gladys Knight did where her audience was overwhelmingly white and I don't think anyone would question Gladys' place in the hearts of the Black community [[even though I've kicked her to the curb). When white radio stopped playing Diana's songs, Black radio still spun them. When Diana couldn't pay to get her videos on MTV or VH1, BET was showing them. Our award shows were honoring her when she was pretty much forgotten by the "big" shows, except for being an odd presenter now and again. My statement about race was not meant to suggest that Diana Ross no longer had white fans. She had a ton of them. What she seemed to lack was love by the general white public, not her diehards, the latter of which I suspect make up the bulk of most Diana Ross shows anyway.

Just my observations and opinions.

RanRan79
07-11-2019, 11:31 AM
Not forgetting that in 1993 the Guinness Book of World Records declared her the most successful female recording artist of all time.

That's probably what I confused the Entertainer of the Century award for. I knew there was something a bit later in her career.

Boogiedown
07-11-2019, 12:52 PM
Yes! That's a perfect way of describing the fickleness of the public here. I've often heard it said that Europe is far less uptight than the US is. It should come as no surprise that there would be a difference in the way artists are appreciated between the two.



More critical, which was my point, but never forgetting her or pushing her off her pedestal [[except the ones who get into pointless debates about "soulful"). The white community, apparently aside from her core fans, left Ross behind long before we ever did. I was shocked when Ross was proclaimed Entertainer of the Century [[was it Rolling Stone?). She usually didn't rate such accolades from "mainstream" media at that point.


I'll never forget attending a white community meeting in the mid eighties and the discussion of whether to support Diana Ross came up . I was shocked when the "nays" barely won out . :rolleyes: It was a raucous debate though !!!

Group speak :p:p bah!

Seriously though , besides the obvious handful , Whitney , Michael,etc. , who did equally well on both charts ... find me the black artists during the eighties who didn't generally chart better on the black charts than on the pop charts?... especially the legends continuing from the sixties and seventies ... and especially the Motown legends from then, like Diana.
Black radio was in big trouble in the eighties and was having a hard time defining itself. A lot of those stations began calling themselves Urban Contemporary, and their focus was on the upbeat stuff and not as ethnic specific . Some went rap. To counter that , some became "quite storm" formatted, playing the sleepier jazzier tunes.
The few that tried to be purists as far as being black/soul formatted, found their music choices to be of slimmer pickings, thus some of these artists' less than stellar releases charted, including Diana Ross'.
Can many of us sing the lyrics to many of the songs that artists like Stevie and Smokey and Gladys were charting with on the black chart at that time? Do we hear them anymore?

KDIA in the SF bay area, was that primary market's premiere black radio station all through the sixties and seventies . In 1984 it suddenly switched to talk radio. I was listening the day it happened. They let the music DJs rant in protest over the airwaves, their last time on the air, and then the next day, they were gone.

Today it is Radio Punjab , playing to Hindu Punjabi listeners.
You can read about it yourself in a watered down account: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KMKY_[[AM)

marv2
07-12-2019, 02:45 PM
I'll never forget attending a white community meeting in the mid eighties and the discussion of whether to support Diana Ross came up . I was shocked when the "nays" barely won out . :rolleyes: It was a raucous debate though !!!

Group speak :p:p bah!

Seriously though , besides the obvious handful , Whitney , Michael,etc. , who did equally well on both charts ... find me the black artists during the eighties who didn't generally chart better on the black charts than on the pop charts?... especially the legends continuing from the sixties and seventies ... and especially the Motown legends from then, like Diana.
Black radio was in big trouble in the eighties and was having a hard time defining itself. A lot of those stations began calling themselves Urban Contemporary, and their focus was on the upbeat stuff and not as ethnic specific . Some went rap. To counter that , some became "quite storm" formatted, playing the sleepier jazzier tunes.
The few that tried to be purists as far as being black/soul formatted, found their music choices to be of slimmer pickings, thus some of these artists' less than stellar releases charted, including Diana Ross'.
Can many of us sing the lyrics to many of the songs that artists like Stevie and Smokey and Gladys were charting with on the black chart at that time? Do we hear them anymore?

KDIA in the SF bay area, was that primary market's premiere black radio station all through the sixties and seventies . In 1984 it suddenly switched to talk radio. I was listening the day it happened. They let the music DJs rant in protest over the airwaves, their last time on the air, and then the next day, they were gone.

Today it is Radio Punjab , playing to Hindu Punjabi listeners.
You can read about it yourself in a watered down account: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KMKY_[[AM)
The same thing happened in Denver to radio station KDKO. It was the ONLY black music station in the city starting in 1957. They went off the air in the early 90s I believe.

daviddh
07-13-2019, 06:53 PM
Just because an album doesn't sell a million copies doesn't mean it's a good album. Plenty of good albums don't sell a lot.
Also Ross has charted on all the charts and been successful.i think mostly Ross has missed some charts due to marketing.
The country...dance n soul charts sell at least half of what usually is selling on pop charts but many are .Ross is always judged on her pop stats which are remarkable. But that doesn't make these gems any less good. Overall Diana has had more hits than misses.