Flo's Last Day as a Supreme

[floyjoy678]

Does anyone know where the July 1st date came from? I've seen several different dates as to when her last performance was with the group:
June 28: I believe Mary wrote this one in Dreamgirl
Late July: Flo says she hasn't been with the group since the start of August in Jet magazine Sept. 1967.
Late June: a year later, I believe also in Jet, Flo says she left the group before they even went to Vegas and was never in the group when it was named Diana Ross and the Supremes [[although this contradicts those photos that surfaced of her celebrating her birthday).

Although July 1st is probably the most accurate, how was that exact date determined?

[bradsupremes]

We know they did their final photo session in the Las Vegas desert on June 28, 1967. None of these photos were seen until the 80s and there are still more that haven't been published yet. They opened at the Flamingo Hotel on June 28th. I have photos from one of their June 29th performances. We know Florence's birthday was on the 30th and they have a birthday party for her in one of the suites. Photos from this party have been published in J Randy Taraborrelli's Diana Ross biography from 2007. After the party, they went out dancing. As for her last show, it's believed it was July 1st because Flo remembers they showed up a little tired/hungover from the night before. Florence admits to seeing four tuxedos in the dressing room and purposely putting on Cindy's tux instead of her own. She also admits to having a few drinks before the show. They usually did two shows a night / three on the weekends and July 1st was a Saturday indicating there was definitely two shows that night and possibly a third. It is assumed she went on drunk during the first show of the night, but it could have been the second or third. After her incident with sticking her stomach out of her tux, that was enough for Gordy and Flo was done. The way it's been written by Mary, Randy, etc. it seems like Cindy didn't step in until the July 2nd shows, but if Flo got canned after the first show of July 1st then Cindy clearly would have had to go on for the second and third shows of the night. I've never heard or read anything that these later shows was canceled.

What we can confirm is that Flo was out of the group by July 2nd and I'm pretty sure judging by various photos of the Flamingo marquee, they were still the Supremes. The name hadn't been changed yet, so technically Cindy joined the group when they were still billed as 'The Supremes.' It wasn't until the release of "Reflections" that they billed the group as 'Diana Ross & the Supremes' and even then they were unsure because when they performed at the Steel Pier in New Jersey in August, they were billed as 'The Supremes with Diana Ross.'

[floyjoy678]

Brad, were they wearing the tuxedos in the photos that you have? I always wondered if they were the same ones they wore on Sullivan a couple of years later. I always assumed there were never any pictures taken during the engagement due to Flo's abrupt departure/Cindy's abrupt onboarding but that doesn't make sense because there were photos taken at the Hollywood Bowl. I've even questioned if Flo was there for the whole Flamingo run before but most evidence seems to indicate she was gone by the end of it.

[sup_fan]

now believe this with GREAT suspicion. But in Tony's book he makes it sound like Cindy replaced Flo on July 1. That Flo did the first show at least and then M and D changed gowns and they and C went out on stage for a later show[[s). Again, believe at your own risk

But you are correct. Cindy was in as of July 2. Would they have done shows on Sunday during these engagements? i guess not many people would care about going to church in Vegas on sunday mornings lololol

Were there pics of the tuxes? there are the pics of them in some sort of metallic outfit. were these from the fall 66 shows?

15963

15964

did they ever wear these again? are they in mary's collection?

[reese]

now believe this with GREAT suspicion. But in Tony's book he makes it sound like Cindy replaced Flo on July 1. That Flo did the first show at least and then M and D changed gowns and they and C went out on stage for a later show[[s). Again, believe at your own risk



He also wrote that the trouble started when Flo was relaxing in her dressing room, turned on the radio, and heard the DJ announce the new record REFLECTIONS by "Diana Ross and the Supremes." She supposedly went screaming in the hallway for Berry, didn't find him, and went back into her dressing room to relax for the second show. Since they weren't changing outfits, she was already set. When she went out for the second show, DMC paraded past her in a different dress. While she's taking this in, Berry comes up and tells her she is fired.

Rather dramatic but as you say, believe at your own risk. And considering that this supposedly took place almost a month before REFLECTIONS was even released, the DJ was either psychic or had a special advance copy. :D

[luke]

I doubt Flo was drunk...maybe a little buzzed. I read that the reviews of Vegas shows with Flo were all very positive.

[sup_fan]

not being there myself, i'm not sure of her level of inebriation. in her interviews, she admitted to having had herself some drinks.

now according to both Mary's and Tony's books, Flo had 0 tolerance for alcohol.

and then with the Farewell performances, several sources talk about M and C drinking champagne prior to the show.

Were they all buzzed? were C and M buzzed but F trashed? not sure.

What has been clearly identified was that on the July 1 show, Flo was off her mark. Singing flat, missing cues and then sticking out her stomach for that "Fat is where it's at" line. perhaps it was fortunate that this particular show was NOT reviewed

Does anyone have copies of any of the Vegas 67 reviews? i've read some of the reviews for Copa and even [[i think) The Grove. but i don't recall ever seeing anyone post anything from the Vegas shows. and the reviews might have been opening night, which was June 28 i think.

[jobeterob]

I doubt Flo was drunk...maybe a little buzzed. I read that the reviews of Vegas shows with Flo were all very positive.

And what is your source? Marv?

[bradsupremes]

The photos I have from June 29th they are wearing the pink chiffon gowns. I have seen photos of the tuxedos with Diana, Mary, and Cindy wearing them in August 1967. They aren’t the same as the ones worn on the Ed Sullivan Show. They were a bit different.

In Randy’s book, it says according to people backstage Flo showed up either hungover or she had just been drinking. I imagine what alcohol she had and the anger of discovering Cindy’s tux set her off.

[marv2]

That was so sad. Kicked out of the group you started!

[Roberta75]

I doubt Flo was drunk...maybe a little buzzed. I read that the reviews of Vegas shows with Flo were all very positive.

Please share the positive reviews of Flos performance in Vegas Luke. Thanks.

[midnightman]

Florence was still with the Supremes until July 2, 1967. She had been feted with a birthday party on July 30th, her 24th.

This was a day prior to that fateful Vegas gig that got her kicked off the group. Also remember the group did TWO shows that night. She knew the name was gonna be changed so she was trying to go through the motions [[of course she hated it, who wouldn't?) but it was nothing that Cindy was also there that Florence probably suspected she was fixing to be replaced so she drank a few before hitting the stage.

I think she was described as inebriated, her wig was all over the place and she "added" to the show by sticking the stomach out when she did her "but fat is where it's at, honey" routine.

Now what is speculated is HOW she was told she was fired. It's likely Flo did dress up for the second show before Gordy told her she was fired...permanently. Few can confirm that she saw Cindy heading to the stage with Diana and Mary so we can leave that as a rumor.

Either way, by the time the clock struck midnight on July 2, 1967, one of the founding members of the Supremes lost her glass slipper and no one ever put it back on her feet ever again. A sad, tragic story.

https://konfashionablemind.files.wordpress.com/2019/02/tumblr_o25369isgk1ubt16wo1_r1_500.jpg?w=500

[Bluebrock]

And what is your source? Marv?
Probably. He is one of Marv's backing singers on this forum. Perhaps he is looking to do a few lead vocals of his own!

[floyjoy678]

Okay Bluebrock, Marv, jobeterob and Roberta can you all just go create your own thread and hash out whatever it is yous need to hash out? Jeeze I feel like I can never post here anymore without the thread getting hijacked by one of yous.

[floyjoy678]

Midnightman yeah I've heard several different versions of how the actually firing went. I've heard that all three were in the dressing room fighting and Berry came in and simply told Flo she was out of the group. Another one had just Flo and Diana in the dressing room together with Diana going off on Flo and then Berry told her not to on stage for the next show and then called her the following morning firing her. I believe Flo said one of Gordy's sisters was trying to convince her not to leave Vegas because she was under contract and could technically go on stage if she wanted to but Flo had enough by that point and left. By the way I love that photo of Flo.

[detmotownguy]

Floy- many years ago I heard the “Berry’s Sister” version. That came from my friends dad who was an executive at Motown in Detroit. I have read about this scenario a couple of times. Where? Hell I can’t remember!

[midnightman]

Midnightman yeah I've heard several different versions of how the actually firing went. I've heard that all three were in the dressing room fighting and Berry came in and simply told Flo she was out of the group. Another one had just Flo and Diana in the dressing room together with Diana going off on Flo and then Berry told her not to on stage for the next show and then called her the following morning firing her. I believe Flo said one of Gordy's sisters was trying to convince her not to leave Vegas because she was under contract and could technically go on stage if she wanted to but Flo had enough by that point and left. By the way I love that photo of Flo.

Right. I need to go on Archive.org and see if Peter's book on Flo is up and see what SHE claimed happened...

[luke]

I have many sources. And you want drama. Well let me tell you I heard Diana had scissors and cut the top of Flo’s dress so it would expose her stomach and Mary found out and took out Diana’s bosom padding and So Diana took out Mary’s butt padding and all hell broke lose but ah the magic of the Supremes...they still put on a great show!

[marv2]

I have many sources. And you want drama. Well let me tell you I heard Diana had scissors and cut the top of Flo’s dress so it would expose her stomach and Mary found out and took out Diana’s bosom padding and So Diana took out Mary’s butt padding and all hell broke lose but ah the magic of the Supremes...they still put on a great show!

All I know is someone needed their a** whippped and it wasn't Flo!

[detmotownguy]

Ross’ ego was outta control and treated M and Flo like crap and that cannot be denied. FACT. You would think all these years later she would at least admit to her narcissistic behavior.

[Albator]

Diana is such a bad girl !

[Albator]

I have many sources. And you want drama. Well let me tell you I heard Diana had scissors and cut the top of Flo’s dress so it would expose her stomach and Mary found out and took out Diana’s bosom padding and So Diana took out Mary’s butt padding and all hell broke lose but ah the magic of the Supremes...they still put on a great show!
Show us your many sources

[marv2]

Ross’ ego was outta control and treated M and Flo like crap and that cannot be denied. FACT. You would think all these years later she would at least admit to her narcissistic behavior.

She can't because she doesn't accept that about herself. She is doomed to live out the rest of her life this way.........

[blackguy69]

I feel you floy same characters same fight and I can’t believe I’m saying this but Marv didn’t start this one , Luke made the comment that made the others react.

[Albator]

I feel you floy same characters same fight and I can’t believe I’m saying this but Marv didn’t start this one , Luke made the comment that made the others react.aren’t they the same person

[sup_fan]

Floy- many years ago I heard the “Berry’s Sister” version. That came from my friends dad who was an executive at Motown in Detroit. I have read about this scenario a couple of times. Where? Hell I can’t remember!

In Randy's latest book on Diana, he also tells a similar story about Berry's sister. Was is Ester? or Gwen?

[marv2]

aren’t they the same person

Are you the same person?

[marv2]

aren’t they the same person

Who are you really?

[sup_fan]

also i would absolutely NOT put all of the blame solely on Diana. did she "hog the spotlight?" probably. she had since the group was conceived so why wouldn't she? F and M most certainly knew and understood this element of Diana's personality. Perhaps Flo just got sick of that behavior and when combined with the political aspects of the situation was just fed up

still that does NOT remove Flo's guilt in HOW she handled this situation. this is some of the most unprofessional behavior possible and quite frankly she DESERVED to be thrown out. She skipped rehearsals, she skipped recording sessions, she skipped publicity events and, most damning, she skipped a performance!! unacceptable!!! :mad:

If any one of us just simply didn't show up for a major work requirement, or showed up drunk to work, you would be terminated. that's whether you work at McDonald's or in a finance department or a barber or a cook etc.

No one is saying that Flo should have simply sat around, being used by motown. The professional thing to do would have been to have left. if she was no longer finder personal or professional satisfaction in her job, then it's her responsibility to change the situation.

[floyjoy678]

sup_fan I think that's why Flo didnt put up a fight the two times she was let go, she wanted out. And it seemed like years later she realized what she did was wrong.

[RanRan79]

Flo's behavior was unprofessional and, as Sup fan points out, would not be tolerated had she had any other job. I still put most of the blame for all of this in the lap of Gordy. If he were the boss at any other job, speaking and treating those women the way that he did, in today's world he'd be sued for everything he has, but as we know back then women didn't have much recourse when abused by employers. You can't go around telling women they're fat and uneducated because they didn't finish high school and not expect animosity and resentment as a result. Sure Flo could've left the group if it wasn't working for her, but she would've been promptly sued for breach of contract. Gordy could've also manned up and done all he could to make all three of his prized Supremes happy if he truly wanted to ensure that the ship continued to sail on course. But misogyny will cloud good judgment every time.

[marv2]

also i would absolutely NOT put all of the blame solely on Diana. did she "hog the spotlight?" probably. she had since the group was conceived so why wouldn't she? F and M most certainly knew and understood this element of Diana's personality. Perhaps Flo just got sick of that behavior and when combined with the political aspects of the situation was just fed up

still that does NOT remove Flo's guilt in HOW she handled this situation. this is some of the most unprofessional behavior possible and quite frankly she DESERVED to be thrown out. She skipped rehearsals, she skipped recording sessions, she skipped publicity events and, most damning, she skipped a performance!! unacceptable!!! :mad:

If any one of us just simply didn't show up for a major work requirement, or showed up drunk to work, you would be terminated. that's whether you work at McDonald's or in a finance department or a barber or a cook etc.

No one is saying that Flo should have simply sat around, being used by motown. The professional thing to do would have been to have left. if she was no longer finder personal or professional satisfaction in her job, then it's her responsibility to change the situation.


I put all the blame on Diane. She was laying up with Berry Gordy and snitching on her "friend" Florence Ballard, complaining about her daily to Mr. Gordy. She should not have done that.

[RanRan79]

I put all the blame on Diane. She was laying up with Berry Gordy and snitching on her "friend" Florence Ballard, complaining about her daily to Mr. Gordy. She should not have done that.

Maybe she shouldn't have. But he didn't have to act the way that he did either. Gordy was the boss. Diana didn't have the power to kick Flo out. That was Gordy's doing. Also remember this all took place more than 50 years ago. These people are elderly. Nobody but a handful of Soulful Detroiters even seem to care. All the Supremes are over it.

[Albator]

Who are you really?
Luke doesn't answer? You do for two :rolleyes:

[marv2]

Luke doesn't answer? You do for two :rolleyes:

What are you going to do about it?

[Albator]

What are you going to do about it?
This is your way, I don't have to do something about it.

[detmotownguy]

I am going to guess it was was Gwen

[marv2]

This is your way, I don't have to do something about it.

Well you're talking about it, so it makes sense to me that you are planning to do something about it, even though you are lying that I am Luke.

[marv2]

I am going to guess it was was Gwen

Gwen being the one to tell Florence to stay? I believe that was the case too.

[Albator]

Flo's behavior was unprofessional and, as Sup fan points out, would not be tolerated had she had any other job. I still put most of the blame for all of this in the lap of Gordy. If he were the boss at any other job, speaking and treating those women the way that he did, in today's world he'd be sued for everything he has, but as we know back then women didn't have much recourse when abused by employers. You can't go around telling women they're fat and uneducated because they didn't finish high school and not expect animosity and resentment as a result. Sure Flo could've left the group if it wasn't working for her, but she would've been promptly sued for breach of contract. Gordy could've also manned up and done all he could to make all three of his prized Supremes happy if he truly wanted to ensure that the ship continued to sail on course. But misogyny will cloud good judgment every time.Women, misogyny??? Brian Jones was left out of the Stones because the others couldn't stand his erratic behavior and there are countless of others exemple in the rock world.

[detmotownguy]

And Ross’ behavior was professional? Hell no. Flo had no power. She was effed. Ross did have her power by through sleeping w boss man. This convo would not be taking place today if amends were publicly acknowledged.
However, in the end, both Ross and Mary did get screwed when they discovered how Little money they had when they severed ties w Motown.

[marv2]

And Ross’ behavior was professional? Hell no. Flo had no power. She was effed. Ross did have her power by through sleeping w boss man. This convo would not be taking place today if amends were publicly acknowledged.
However, in the end, both Ross and Mary did get screwed when they discovered how Little money they had when they severed ties w Motown.

Amen and exactly! Like all of us, Diana Ross is going to pay for what she did now............or later!

[marv2]

Women, misogyny??? Brian Jones was left out of the Stones because the others couldn't stand his erratic behavior and there are countless of others exemple in the rock world.

In the case of Florence Ballard, her "behavior", was in response to what was being done to her.

[Albator]

In the case of Florence Ballard, her "behavior", was in response to what was being done to her.If it's the case, Mary didn't help, didn't give advice? protect her friend...

[luke]

What did Bette Midler a la Sophie Tucker say “f_____em if they can’t take a joke.” My god lighten up some of you people.

[luke]

I’m honored. Marv has very good taste!

[marv2]

If it's the case, Mary didn't help, didn't give advice? protect her friend...

Florence was older than Mary. It was not Mary smearing Florence and ratting on her to Gordy! That was ALL Diana Ross!

[marv2]

What did Bette Midler a la Sophie Tucker say “f_____em if they can’t take a joke.” My god lighten up some of you people.

They can't take a joke because they devoid of personality.

[marv2]

I’m honored. Marv has very good taste!

Why thank you Luke! or should I say "Me" if you believe this Albator person LOL!!!!

[BayouMotownMan]

All I know is someone needed their a** whippped and it wasn't Flo!

It shows how uninformed you really are Marv. Florence had been allowed back into the group to complete some dates while Cindy's contract release was done with the Bluebelles. Flo was in bad shape. She was quite heavy and quite erratic. Her mood swings were severe as anyone traumatized would be.

The billboard was changed to The Supremes with Diana Ross during this gig and Flo went off on BG. No employee is allowed to show up to work intoxicated. ANYBODY would be fired for that. The truth of the matter is that Motown had given Flo a second and third chance but both Diana AND MARY agreed with Gordy that she had to go. They were not happy about doing this because the group was so hot that a change of this magnitude could have a disastrous impact. Mary has said many times that Flo wanted out. She was miserable. She had however deluded herself into thinking she was irreplaceable. And that helped do her in. Flo was the victim, but she was just as responsible for her fate as anyone else. Had she adopted Mary's attitude of going with the program, not only would she have stayed in the group but in 1970 she would have emerged as the lead singer.

[sup_fan]

after the Hollywood Bowl, was it really a reprieve for Flo or just needing to fulfill contractual obligations for performances? if flo had returned with the "mary mindset," would they have kept her in the group once Cindy was relieved for her contract with the Bluebelles?

[midnightman]

In Randy's latest book on Diana, he also tells a similar story about Berry's sister. Was is Ester? or Gwen?

Gwen was the one who called.

[midnightman]

Maybe she shouldn't have. But he didn't have to act the way that he did either. Gordy was the boss. Diana didn't have the power to kick Flo out. That was Gordy's doing. Also remember this all took place more than 50 years ago. These people are elderly. Nobody but a handful of Soulful Detroiters even seem to care. All the Supremes are over it.

Also here is what people seem to forget: the Supremes became world famous only a couple of years after high school. Diana and Mary were child prodigies and Flo barely an adult, been together since 15-16 years old.

They put all their hopes on Berry Gordy to make them stars. Gordy used and manipulated at least two of them while the other had her skepticism about him. Florence was only 24 when she was fired.

Honestly none of us can be a fly on the wall to what was going on but show business is a cutthroat world and if you show any vulnerability, they take advantage of that. Florence went through so much after being raped, her drive for stardom almost overwhelmed her especially after the group stopped being so close.

Mary and her cousin concluded that Flo didn't do the right thing either. It would've helped if Gordy and Diana weren't so success driven but no one knew how to deal with Florence's problems.

[marv2]

Also here is what people seem to forget: the Supremes became world famous only a couple of years after high school. Diana and Mary were child prodigies and Flo barely an adult, been together since 15-16 years old.

They put all their hopes on Berry Gordy to make them stars. Gordy used and manipulated at least two of them while the other had her skepticism about him. Florence was only 24 when she was fired.

Honestly none of us can be a fly on the wall to what was going on but show business is a cutthroat world and if you show any vulnerability, they take advantage of that. Florence went through so much after being raped, her drive for stardom almost overwhelmed her especially after the group stopped being so close.

Mary and her cousin concluded that Flo didn't do the right thing either. It would've helped if Gordy and Diana weren't so success driven but no one knew how to deal with Florence's problems.

Ahh they could have been nicer. They acted like a bunch of assholes towards that woman. Calling her fat, drunk, lazy and not really being sick when she was sick, not letting her sing any leads,threatening to expose the fact that she had not graduated from high school to the public and on and on, etc.

[floyjoy678]

Yeah I dont think Flo wanted to be in the group. I feel at some point she was hoping maybe things would work out but by '67, she seemed to just be going through the motions.

Shelley Berger has said that after the New Orleans fiasco, he saw Diana reading a note from Flo saying she didn't want to be in the group anymore. I don't think Flo wanted to quit out of loyalty, almost like how Diana didn't want to go solo too soon.

[RanRan79]

Women, misogyny??? Brian Jones was left out of the Stones because the others couldn't stand his erratic behavior and there are countless of others exemple in the rock world.

Brian Jones has nothing to do with Berry Gordy. I am talking about Gordy's known negative attitude where his female artists were concerned. He clearly had a different way of dealing with the males vs the females. The Stones were not on Motown and thus irrelevant to this conversation.

[RanRan79]

Amen and exactly! Like all of us, Diana Ross is going to pay for what she did now............or later!

Good thing you don't have a heaven or hell to put her in, right? We all have to reap what we sow. That's a fact. Why is Diana's reaping and sewing more important to you than your own reaping and sewing? I'm genuinely interested in the answer to this. Love me some Diana Ross, but I am waaaaaayyyyyyy more concerned with my own life than I am hers. That's also a fact. What say you?

[midnightman]

Ahh they could have been nicer. They acted like a bunch of assholes towards that woman. Calling her fat, drunk, lazy and not really being sick when she was sick, not letting her sing any leads,threatening to expose the fact that she had not graduated from high school to the public and on and on, etc.

Let's not act like the Supremes and Motown are the only act where childish antics happened now... they just happened to be the most famous act where this occurred. I'm not making excuses for them, they WERE rude and mean, but this wasn't that unique. I've read biographies of other groups who treated their mates ten times worse and yet they still reunite every now and then!

[RanRan79]

after the Hollywood Bowl, was it really a reprieve for Flo or just needing to fulfill contractual obligations for performances? if flo had returned with the "mary mindset," would they have kept her in the group once Cindy was relieved for her contract with the Bluebelles?

I think that the reprieve ultimately was because Motown needed time to deal with Cindy's contract to the Bluebelles and Atlantic Records. I believe that had Flo come back with a better attitude and willingness to go along to get along, Cindy would've never been a Supreme. For all of Gordy's nastiness, his dream wasn't that Florence is fired. He was smart enough- I think- to recognize her contributions to the group and thus would not want to lose that if he could avoid it. So Flo in a better mood would've been good business for the Supremes. Gordy would be happy with that. Cindy would've either ended up a replacement Vandella or Marvelette, or she would've been a casualty in the Motown machine's Supreme focus, because Patti and the girls definitely weren't letting Cindy come back.

But Gordy had a pretty good read on people and I think he recognized that at some point Flo would slip up, especially if he decided to target her hot button issues. So Cindy was brought on board as a stand in, to be called upon shortly.

[floyjoy678]

Let's not act like the Supremes and Motown are the only act where childish antics happened now... they just happened to be the most famous act where this occurred. I'm not making excuses for them, they WERE rude and mean, but this wasn't that unique. I've read biographies of other groups who treated their mates ten times worse and yet they still reunite every now and then!

Right? Anyone want to talk about how despicable Martha treated "her" Vandellas? She's lucky she got her sister in there to back her butt up.

[RanRan79]

Ahh they could have been nicer. They acted like a bunch of assholes towards that woman. Calling her fat, drunk, lazy and not really being sick when she was sick, not letting her sing any leads,threatening to expose the fact that she had not graduated from high school to the public and on and on, etc.

On this we agree. Some of what has been described is absolutely crazy, and she's supposed to ignore that? I get that there was a better way to handle things, but I really think people are missing what Florence was really dealing with. The least of her Motown problems was not singing a lead. What was going on between her and Gordy was deeper than that.

[midnightman]

Right? Anyone want to talk about how despicable Martha treated "her" Vandellas? She's lucky she got her sister in there to back her butt up.

Betty Kelly in particular. This is why I can't take people seriously when they act like the Supremes were the only ones who had to deal with nastiness in their own ranks. Far from it!

[marv2]

Right? Anyone want to talk about how despicable Martha treated "her" Vandellas? She's lucky she got her sister in there to back her butt up.

No! This thread is about Florence Ballard's last day in the Supremes. Thank you

[midnightman]

I think that the reprieve ultimately was because Motown needed time to deal with Cindy's contract to the Bluebelles and Atlantic Records. I believe that had Flo come back with a better attitude and willingness to go along to get along, Cindy would've never been a Supreme. For all of Gordy's nastiness, his dream wasn't that Florence is fired. He was smart enough- I think- to recognize her contributions to the group and thus would not want to lose that if he could avoid it. So Flo in a better mood would've been good business for the Supremes. Gordy would be happy with that. Cindy would've either ended up a replacement Vandella or Marvelette, or she would've been a casualty in the Motown machine's Supreme focus, because Patti and the girls definitely weren't letting Cindy come back.

But Gordy had a pretty good read on people and I think he recognized that at some point Flo would slip up, especially if he decided to target her hot button issues. So Cindy was brought on board as a stand in, to be called upon shortly.

Speaking of Cindy, the Bluebelles [[Patti, Nona and Sarah) were PISSED with a capital P when Cindy called them later about going to the Supremes. I can imagine they each called Cindy everything but a child of God [[NONA in particular). Berry's decision led to a double whammy of two top girl groups whose early friendships broke apart because of a cruel world called show business.

For all of the talk about what Mary "should have done", she DID try to help Florence to get her to fight for her place to stay in the group but I guess Florence's demons got the best of her. Every time I see their Unsung and it gets to the part of the breakup, I always go "get strong, Flo! Prove Berry wrong!" :[[

[marv2]

On this we agree. Some of what has been described is absolutely crazy, and she's supposed to ignore that? I get that there was a better way to handle things, but I really think people are missing what Florence was really dealing with. The least of her Motown problems was not singing a lead. What was going on between her and Gordy was deeper than that.

It was done intentionally! The issue was NOT about handling things differently. That was the bullshit line they put out there starting in the late 70s in regards to the Florence Ballard story. Into the 80s, they tried to put the brunt of the blame of Florence because of how she had "handled" things. The truth is they slowly tortured that girl. Even tried to make her think she was losing her mind or that she had gotten as big as a house. I dare anyone to show me a picture of Florence Ballard fat as one of the Supremes!

[marv2]

You see it right here with some of these guys trying to change the subject to the Vandellas or couldn't Mary Wilson have done something to make Florence's situation with Berry and Diane better, etc,etc, utter bullshit to ad nauseum!

[midnightman]

Well obviously Florence Glenda Ballard Chapman was never fat [[though Benjaminson claimed she died mildly obese; think it was said she weighed 190 lbs at the time of her death but she was like 5'7, I think? I need to re-read the book on Archive), but this was the '60s, if someone in the industry weighed over 120 lbs, you were considered fat. They said this to Judy Garland decades before Flo and to Karen Carpenter [[well they called her chubby but still) a decade after her. The industry is hard on women in general. What men can get away with, women can't. So telling a curvaceous woman she was fat will definitely sting especially if you're as headstrong as Florence.

[midnightman]

You see it right here with some of these guys trying to change the subject to the Vandellas or couldn't Mary Wilson have done something to make Florence's situation with Berry and Diane better, etc,etc, utter bullshit to ad nauseum!

It was just a comparison, Marvin...

[midnightman]

http://blacktimetravel.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/ballard.jpg

This was how Florence looked in late 1975, just a few months before her death and probably right after she left rehab at Henry Ford Hospital. Not fat at all but in her era, she would've been seen as such, which is pretty f*cked up.

[floyjoy678]

Marv you turned the thread into another Diana-bash fest, nothing to do with Florence's last day as a Supreme. Practice what you preach my man.

[detmotownguy]

Gwen being the one to tell Florence to stay? I believe that was the case too.
Thanks for the reply.

[marv2]

Marv you turned the thread into another Diana-bash fest, nothing to do with Florence's last day as a Supreme. Practice what you preach my man.

Why is telling the truth about a situation viewed as bashing? Why do you all always excuse her bad behavior towards others. That has been her problem, no one puts her in check.

[detmotownguy]

If Flo was taking anti depressants that might explain some weight gain depending on the drug she was prescribed.

[blackguy69]

Hold up floy it was turning into a bash fest even before marv mentioned Diana but u do agree with you too

[detmotownguy]

The way Flo was treated has everything to do with her demise in the group. Behavior from others negatively affected her well-being.

[blackguy69]

I don’t think she was fat but she definitely gained weight from going from a size 8 in 1965 to a size 12 in 1967. It was said before that Cindy could wear Flo’s dresses the question is could Flo wear her dresses. It’s been said that they couldn’t wear certain gowns because Flo’s couldn’t get into hers also when Flo put on Cindy’s tuxedo, it was too small for her.
Well obviously Florence Glenda Ballard Chapman was never fat [[though Benjaminson claimed she died mildly obese; think it was said she weighed 190 lbs at the time of her death but she was like 5'7, I think? I need to re-read the book on Archive), but this was the '60s, if someone in the industry weighed over 120 lbs, you were considered fat. They said this to Judy Garland decades before Flo and to Karen Carpenter [[well they called her chubby but still) a decade after her. The industry is hard on women in general. What men can get away with, women can't. So telling a curvaceous woman she was fat will definitely sting especially if you're as headstrong as Florence.

[marv2]

If Flo was taking anti depressants that might explain some weight gain depending on the drug she was prescribed.

If you've ever worked at a job that was excessively stressful and you knew most of the stress was being made up by those that wanted you gone, you will have some understanding of what Florence Ballard went through. When she was finally out, it felt like a relief to her. That is how she described it. She didn't even want to have anything to do with Motown or the people there after she was fired.

[marv2]

I don’t think she was fat but she definitely gained weight from going from a size 8 in 1965 to a size 12 in 1967. It was said before that Cindy could wear Flo’s dresses the question is could Flo wear her dresses. It’s been said that they couldn’t wear certain gowns because Flo’s couldn’t get into hers also when Flo put on Cindy’s tuxedo, it was too small for her.

Then later on, it looked to me that Cindy was just as curvy and voluptuous as Flo. She did not look skinny or malnourished like the lead singer.

[Albator]

Why thank you Luke! or should I say "Me" if you believe this Albator person LOL!!!!

Clearly, this Marv2, is not a sociopath having such a friend like Luke, following like a shadow, registered the same year and month. Always symbiotic, always defensive, admirative. If it's not one in two, it's two in one... or more :rolleyes:

[Albator]

Florence was older than Mary. It was not Mary smearing Florence and ratting on her to Gordy! That was ALL Diana Ross!

From all the conclusions you draw, it seems that Mary Wilson has no personality, no existence of her own, like your friend Luke.
If Flo was being harassed by Berry and Diana, it's still surprising that Mary didn't intervene. If the original team meant that much, she could have said, "If Flo goes away, I don't go on stage".
But she didn't say that, she preferred to see the band survive with another Supreme than to see it sink into chaos. She preferred to remain a Supreme, with the benefits, protected by Diana Ross leading force, and probably praying that it would last as long as possible.

And if you think Flo was harassed, what about Diana? in this book you read as the Bible, Berry is tougher to Diana than any other Supremes or artist.
B. Gordy : "She is going to be a star, and a star should endure this kind of pressure"

[captainjames]

after the Hollywood Bowl, was it really a reprieve for Flo or just needing to fulfill contractual obligations for performances? if flo had returned with the "mary mindset," would they have kept her in the group once Cindy was relieved for her contract with the Bluebelles?

I don't think Cindy was announced when she did fill in/join the group during their July run. Berry took a big gamble on losing Flo because he wasn't sure how the public would accept it. The fire must have been pretty hot for him to say okay that's it. However, if Cindy was rejected I think he would have either found a way to get her back or have Diana go solo.

[BayouMotownMan]

Why is telling the truth about a situation viewed as bashing? Why do you all always excuse her bad behavior towards others. That has been her problem, no one puts her in check.

Ross has been put in check many times. Leaving Motown and watching her career decline. Her husband leaving her for a younger woman.

She put YOU in check by throwing you out of her concert because you snapped photos when an announcement had been made not to do so while she was performing.

[marv2]

Ross has been put in check many times. Leaving Motown and watching her career decline. Her husband leaving her for a younger woman.

She put YOU in check by throwing you out of her concert because you snapped photos when an announcement had been made not to do so while she was performing.

Diana Ross has never had me thrown out of anything or anywhere. Thinking about it, I wished she could. I'd have a good chunk of whatever money she has left.......

[BayouMotownMan]

Diana Ross has never had me thrown out of anything or anywhere. Thinking about it, I wished she could. I'd have a good chunk of whatever money she has left.......

It happened in Denver. That was the night you became a Mary Wilson fan. That was in a post you sent me on AOL in November 1999, that I eventually sent to Mary's rep. I think I still have it on a flash. I'll look and post it.

[detmotownguy]

It happened in Denver. That was the night you became a Mary Wilson fan. That was in a post you sent me on AOL in November 1999, that I eventually sent to Mary's rep. I think I still have it on a flash. I'll look and post it.
Marv I hope he does. Check your email. There are legal issues.

[Roberta75]

Clearly, this Marv2, is not a sociopath having such a friend like Luke, following like a shadow, registered the same year and month. Always symbiotic, always defensive, admirative. If it's not one in two, it's two in one... or more :rolleyes:

Wow thats real smart of you and your right. Not only did Luke and Marv joined on the same month and year but on the exact same day. Yep. Many of us here have thought they are the same person and you just proved it Albator.

[Albator]

Wow thats real smart of you and your right. Not only did Luke and Marv joined on the same month and year but on the exact same day. Yep. Many of us here have thought they are the same person and you just proved it Albator.
If you google Diana Ross sociopath, you'll find a discussion on a forum a long time ago, where he pursue her and label her "A c"" of epic proportion and sociopath" .

He is one in two, or two in one

As Luke, he loves Marv2 very much

15972

So we have, a paranoia, schizophrenia and narcissism ... Not a just a sociopath but a psychopath of epic proportion :o

[PeaceNHarmony]

It happened in Denver. That was the night you became a Mary Wilson fan. That was in a post you sent me on AOL in November 1999, that I eventually sent to Mary's rep. I think I still have it on a flash. I'll look and post it.It would be a great service to this forum if you would do so.

[PeaceNHarmony]

Wow thats real smart of you and your right. Not only did Luke and Marv joined on the same month and year but on the exact same day. Yep. Many of us here have thought they are the same person and you just proved it Albator.O. M. G. TOO funny. Or sad, whichever you prefer.

[marv2]

Marv I hope he does. Check your email. There are legal issues.

This dude is crazy. Diana never threw me out of anywhere in Denver. He knows I went to school in Denver from when he use to pretend to just be a Motown fan way back in the AOL days. I have always loved Mary Wilson since I first heard of the Supremes. If he continues with his lies, I will blow him out of the waters with his own truths! Final warning! I am not playing.

[BayouMotownMan]

This dude is crazy. Diana threw me out anywhere in Denver. He knows I went to school in Denver from when he use to pretend to just be a Motown fan way back in the AOL day. I have always loved Mary Wilson since I first heard of the Supremes. If he continues with his lies, I will blow him out of the waters with his own truths! Final warning! I am not playing.

You've threatened me with that many times Marv and I still say GO FOR IT

[marv2]

You've threatened me with that many times Marv and I still say GO FOR IT

I will. I have to make a few calls tomorrow. Going for it here!

[Roberta75]

Heres my advice to you BayouMotownMan.

[BayouMotownMan]

Of course I won't Roberta.

[Roberta75]

I will. I have to make a few calls tomorrow. Going for it here!

Whos name you gonna make the calls under yours or Lukes? LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

[blackguy69]

All of you are acting like a bunch of 13 year old jr high school girls Grow up

[ralpht]

You guys having fun yet?

[Roberta75]

All of you are acting like a bunch of 13 year old jr high school girls Grow up

Its kinda silly and real disrespectful to be passing around blame over Flo Ballards exit from the Supremes 52 years ago when NONE of US was there in ANY of the dressing rooms or meetings or phone calls. Let the lady RIP and celebrate her legacy on this day which is her earthly birthday.

[blackguy69]

And yet you and others engage him knowing full well what he will say instead of ignoring him. And yet I find it interesting that you don’t have a problem calling out Marv but becoming quiet when Mary gets disrespected.
Its kinda silly and real disrespectful to be passing around blame over Flo Ballards exit from the Supremes 52 years ago when NONE of US was there in ANY of the dressing rooms or meetings or phone calls. Let the lady RIP and celebrate her legacy on this day which is her earthly birthday.

[Roberta75]

I dont disrespect Mary Wilson but things he says about Diana Ross are just real disgusting and sexist and I actually have defended Mary Wilson on this here forum.

[blackguy69]

Your defense if Mary is light compared to your defense of Diana. All in saying is be equal with whom you’re defending.

[floyjoy678]

I agree blackguy69, I'm done with this thread. I really just wanted to find out how that July 1st date was determined but I actually am regretting starting this thread. The same 6 or 7 troublemakers as usual.

[Roberta75]

Your defense if Mary is light compared to your defense of Diana. All in saying is be equal with whom you’re defending.

Then you be equal as well because imo your defense of Ross is light compare to your defense of Mary.

I do defend Mary but Mary Wilsons isnt my favorite Supreme Diana is but I love all of the Supremes all of them. How can you love the Supremes and listen to there music but despise one of them? Its real odd to me.

[vgalindo]

Then you be equal as well because imo your defense of Ross is light compare to your defense of Mary.

I do defend Mary but Mary Wilsons isnt my favorite Supreme Diana is but I love all of the Supremes all of them. How can you love the Supremes and listen to there music but despise one of them? Its real odd to me.
Exactly Roberta! I agree 💯

[blackguy69]

Actually I ignore most of this crap and tell everyone to knock it off.

[blackguy69]

This is for all of the Diana haters, Mary haters and Marv’s shadow
https://youtu.be/H1Yt0xJKDY8

[PeaceNHarmony]

Yeah I dont think Flo wanted to be in the group. I feel at some point she was hoping maybe things would work out but by '67, she seemed to just be going through the motions.

Shelley Berger has said that after the New Orleans fiasco, he saw Diana reading a note from Flo saying she didn't want to be in the group anymore. I don't think Flo wanted to quit out of loyalty, almost like how Diana didn't want to go solo too soon.That's quite interesting, and certainly makes Florence out to be a stronger person than the cult of victimizers would have us believe, and Diana less of a Lady Macbeth that same-said cult would like to portray her as.

[midnightman]

Flo wanting to be out would make sense at that point...

[Bluebrock]

Hopefully now that everyone has had their say we can get back to discussing the music that we all claim to love.

[Albator]

Hopefully now that everyone has had their say we can get back to discussing the music that we all claim to love.For more than 3 years, I resisted more or less answering. Mostly because of language barrier in fact. But some are playing silly games here.Let's try to go back to Miss Diana Ross. If possible, but I doubt :[[

[Ollie9]

I truly believe Berry Gordy himself has to shoulder a lot of the blame for what transpired. Perhaps Flo would have left the group anyway, but it did not have to happen the way it did. He realised he could not control Florence so wanted her out. Diana and Mary were very young, he was a mature adult in his late 30's. He also happened to be THE BOSS.
In truth i doubt we will ever know all the facts.

[Albator]

This happens in all groups, one take the lead, another is frustrated.
In one hand you have a painful human experience, on another, the necessity to maintain success or make it work.
There were 5 Beatles, than 4. Brian Jones had to leave the Beatles and died a few month later. Pink Floyd member Syd Barrett was replaced by his best friend David Gilmour.

The Supremes are no exception but the fact they are girls changes the perception.

[Ollie9]

This happens in all groups, one take the lead, another is frustrated.
In one hand you have a painful human experience, on another, the necessity to maintain success or make it work.
There were 5 Beatles, than 4. Brian Jones had to leave the Beatles and died a few month later. Pink Floyd member Syd Barrett was replaced by his best friend David Gilmour.

For The Beatles it must have seemed like Brian Jones had never been there in the first place. :rolleyes:

[Albator]

For The Beatles it must have seemed like Brian Jones had never been there in the first place. :rolleyes:You mean "The Stones"??? yes, but to this day, it's not an issue for Jagger or Richard.
The 5th Beatles was Pete Best, he was a guitar player in the group from 61 to 62.

[PeaceNHarmony]

Hopefully now that everyone has had their say we can get back to discussing the music that we all claim to love.RIGHT?? I had thought that Florence Ballard's 'last day' as a Supreme was a known fact, but it is interesting that there are some differing opinions. Of course it can be debated what would constitute the 'last day': last day performing, last day being given a chance to perform, etc. But I do find the information that Florence wanted out to be interesting. Best to you in mid-Summer England!

[PeaceNHarmony]

Of course it could be said that there will never be a Florence Ballard 'last day' as a Supreme. As long as the records she was present on are played and as long as there are video clips of her in performance Florence Ballard will ALWAYS be a Supreme.

[Bluebrock]

For more than 3 years, I resisted more or less answering. Mostly because of language barrier in fact. But some are playing silly games here.Let's try to go back to Miss Diana Ross. If possible, but I doubt :[[
It would be nice, but i am sure this particular feud has not yet ran out of steam.

[Bluebrock]

RIGHT?? I had thought that Florence Ballard's 'last day' as a Supreme was a known fact, but it is interesting that there are some differing opinions. Of course it can be debated what would constitute the 'last day': last day performing, last day being given a chance to perform, etc. But I do find the information that Florence wanted out to be interesting. Best to you in mid-Summer England!
All good here. The sun is shining for the start of Wimbledon. All the best to you too!

[Albator]

It would be nice, but i am sure this particular feud has not yet ran out of steam. I don’t remember where she said that but Diana herself, stated « when someone slap you over and over again, what are you suppose to do, smile? »

[floyjoy678]

Of course it could be said that there will never be a Florence Ballard 'last day' as a Supreme. As long as the records she was present on are played and as long as there are video clips of her in performance Florence Ballard will ALWAYS be a Supreme.

And ain't that the truth!

[marv2]

I truly believe Berry Gordy himself has to shoulder a lot of the blame for what transpired. Perhaps Flo would have left the group anyway, but it did not have to happen the way it did. He realised he could not control Florence so wanted her out. Diana and Mary were very young, he was a mature adult in his late 30's. He also happened to be THE BOSS.
In truth i doubt we will ever know all the facts.

We know enough of the facts.

[BayouMotownMan]

We know enough of the facts.

Yes, most of us do. The fact is despite what was going on off stage, Flo chose to go on stage on this day in 1967 intoxicated, not looking or singing well, and at one point during the interchange between she and Ross at the beginning of You're Nobody Til Somebody Loves You she decided to emphasize her girth by rolling her belly over the top of her pantsuit exposing her stomach to a room filled with hundreds of people.

Berry Gordy had no choice but to fire her. Anyone else would have done the same thing.

I maintain Mary Wilson said it best in 1986. She was on a talk show promoting her first book. When asked who was responsible for Flo's downfall she carefully chose her words by saying, "I can't answer that in one or two sentences. A lot of people were responsible for what happened to Flo. Flo herself was responsible."

Let's leave it at that.

[Ollie9]

I maintain Mary Wilson said it best in 1986. She was on a talk show promoting her first book. When asked who was responsible for Flo's downfall she carefully chose her words by saying, "I can't answer that in one or two sentences. A lot of people were responsible for what happened to Flo. Flo herself was responsible."

Let's leave it at that.[/QUOTE]

I very much agree.

[Roberta75]

Yes, most of us do. The fact is despite what was going on off stage, Flo chose to go on stage on this day in 1967 intoxicated, not looking or singing well, and at one point during the interchange between she and Ross at the beginning of You're Nobody Til Somebody Loves You she decided to emphasize her girth by rolling her belly over the top of her pantsuit exposing her stomach to a room filled with hundreds of people.

Berry Gordy had no choice but to fire her. Anyone else would have done the same thing.

I maintain Mary Wilson said it best in 1986. She was on a talk show promoting her first book. When asked who was responsible for Flo's downfall she carefully chose her words by saying, "I can't answer that in one or two sentences. A lot of people were responsible for what happened to Flo. Flo herself was responsible."

Let's leave it at that.

Yes, imo theres not much else to say.

[Jimi LaLumia]

everyone, get a life,
and let the lady rest in peace..

[midnightman]

This happens in all groups, one take the lead, another is frustrated.
In one hand you have a painful human experience, on another, the necessity to maintain success or make it work.
There were 5 Beatles, than 4. Brian Jones had to leave the Beatles and died a few month later. Pink Floyd member Syd Barrett was replaced by his best friend David Gilmour.

The Supremes are no exception but the fact they are girls changes the perception.

Uh... you mean the Rolling Stones lol

[captainjames]

In all due respect of the girls I think towards the end Flo said that she felt she had messed things up and wanted to make amends. For some reason I remember this being around the Mahogany days. At any rate there will never be another Barbara, Diana, Mary and Florence. Never Never !!

[PeaceNHarmony]

And ain't that the truth!It's truly what I think and feel, FloyJoy! I wish & hope & think others think similarly also. Be well and have a great summer -

[midnightman]

In all due respect of the girls I think towards the end Flo said that she felt she had messed things up and wanted to make amends. For some reason I remember this being around the Mahogany days. At any rate there will never be another Barbara, Diana, Mary and Florence. Never Never !!

That pretty much says it right there. Especially DMF.

[Albator]

The whole story is sad anyway