Have the Brits Stole our Soul?

[RossHolloway]

Cover Story: Adele keeps old soul fresh

By Breeanna Hare, CNN
February 24, 2011 10:48 a.m. EST

http://i.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2011/SHOWBIZ/Music/02/23/adele.soul.music/t1larg.adele.soul.gi.jpg
Adele is the name on the tip of every music lover's tongue since the release of her album, "21."

[[CNN) -- Tuesday's release of Adele's sophomore album "21" has fans and newcomers alike swooning over the 22-year-old Brit.
"At its best, '21' is that rarest pop commodity: timeless," said Entertainment Weekly's [[http://www.ew.com/ew/article/0,,20464873,00.html?cnn=yes) review, while the Los Angeles Times [[http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/music_blog/2011/02/album-review-adeles-21.html?cnn=yes) commented that "'21' shows that Adele is towering in the same landscape where some of her contemporaries, beehived or not, have lost all their bearings."
The album, which was released in the United Kingdom on January 24, has already hit No. 1 in 14 countries, as Billboard magazine pointed out [[http://www.billboard.com/#/features/adele-the-billboard-cover-story-1005015182.story?page=1?cnn=yes) on a January cover featuring the singer. The UK's Guardian [[http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2011/feb/22/adele-matches-beatles-chart-success?cnn=yes) noted earlier this week that she made history as the first artist since the Beatles to have two top five singles and two top five albums in the charts at the same time. [[Adele's debut, "19," was released in 2008.)
If you've heard her voice -- and you likely have, considering that "Rolling in the Deep" plays in the background of an "I Am Number Four" trailer [[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QSX6-zg8ORc?cnn=yes) that steadily promoted the film up to its Feb. 18 release -- it's not hard to understand the obsession.
NPR's [[http://www.npr.org/music/?cnn=yes) music editor Stephen Thompson throws out descriptions like "timeless" and "booming" when speaking of her sound -- the kind of voice that can bowl you over with its intensity.
When Adele stopped by NPR for a "tiny desk" concert [[http://www.npr.org/2011/02/18/133687905/adele-tiny-desk-concert?cnn=yes), where she performs at the desk of a host, Thompson said even someone unfamiliar with her was won over by the ease with which she turned into a full-fledged performer.
"She's a rare case of an artist where she can breeze in, sit down and just knock everybody out. On top of the quality of the songwriting, there's just an indefinable charisma and power to her voice. It was so obvious that there didn't need to be anything to mask it," Thompson recalled. "There wasn't an issue of production...there was nothing dressed up about it...She never even took off her gloves."
That raw, emotive quality is part of what makes calling Adele a soul singer seem so natural. Even she admits becoming overwhelmed by emotion while performing.
But SiriusXM's Larry Flick [[http://www.siriusoutq.com/?cnn=yes) says he'd categorize it as "a pop record with soul leanings." Flick, who hosts "The Morning Jolt" show on SiriusXM's OutQ channel, discovered Adele's "Hometown Glory" in 2007 and introduced her to his audience with "Chasing Pavements." He believes that one can call Adele "a soul singer if you're willing to categorize someone like Van Morrison as a soul singer, in that they both deal in very traditional, classic pop song structure, but they have these very unique, soulful voices."
Flick adds,"part of what makes them interesting is the intensity of their performances, and there's no other word to slap on that but soul."
It's the same label that has been applied to fellow Brit Estelle [[http://www.estellemusic.com/?cnn=yes), whose 2008 album "Shine" had a Grammy-winning single [[her collaboration with Kanye West, "American Boy") and also added her to the roster of soulful UK singers that Americans couldn't get enough of.
She was joined there by Duffy [[http://www.iamduffy.com/?cnn=yes), whose Grammy-winning album "Rockferry" was released in the United States in 2008. "Warwick Avenue," the resolute single about moving on from a relationship, was one of the album's songs that Newsweek singled out as "without any guile or cheese, sung with smoky vocals and a powerful, lifting, heartbreaking crescendo."
And before that, of course, there was Amy Winehouse. Her own time-warped sound on "Back to Black" was itself following a trail of other imported old souls like Joss Stone.
Characterized by affecting vocals and nostalgic production, it seems every so many years, we're having another love affair with these modern takes on the music of our past. Between Adele and a forthcoming U.S. album release from Londoner Eliza Doolittle [[http://www.myspace.com/elizadoolittle?cnn=yes), who cites Stevie Wonder, Otis Redding and Queen among her numerous influences and can't seem to escape comparisons to Lily Allen, it doesn't look like our infatuation is going away any time soon.
As evidenced by the string of singers, male and female, who have adopted this frame to create modern updates, it's the kind of sound that's hit a stride in pop culture. "You get a very, very fresh, robust, almost 3-D production that makes that music sound as new as it is," says NPR's Thompson. "But if you were around in the 1960s and listened to a lot of classic soul, it sounds sort of comfortable and familiar and classic and the way music should sound to you."
Logically, says Billboard's [[http://www.billboard.com/?cnn=yes) editor Danyel Smith, "all those young women come from a similar tradition; they're all soulful singers." With Adele, an obvious influence is the Northern soul movement that developed in the northern part of England in the '60s and '70s, inspired by the music that was coming out of the States at the time. The cultural shift was evident at nightclubs like the Twisted Wheel, and could be heard in the music of the famously soulful songstress Dusty Springfield. [[Remember "Son of a Preacher Man" [[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XZWEEm6xZvU?cnn=yes)?)
"A lot of people are quick to say that Northern soul was influenced by Motown, but really what a lot of the people in England were influenced by were the soul labels coming out of the United States at the time; the soul music that wasn't as popular as Motown was. That's what they really responded to and built their culture around," Smith explains. "That music, the 1960s soul that wasn't Motown. Who in America even talks about that? But it did exist, and it was incredible. There was a whole family of labels, and little nightclubs where everyone who didn't get to be Diana Ross played. This is what they were listening to in the UK, and this is what influenced this Northern soul movement that Dusty Springfield came out of back in the '60s and '70s."
Characterized by affecting vocals and nostalgic production, it seems every so many years, we're having another love affair with these modern takes on the music of our past.



All of the artists who have worn the world-weary label have acknowledged how these classic sounds impacted them. Adele has said [[http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/01/29/AR2009012904438.html?cnn=yes) that she fell in love with Etta James and Ella Fitzgerald; Duffy told Newsweek [[http://www.newsweek.com/2008/05/13/more-blue-eyed-soul-from-wales.html?cnn=yes) back in 2008 that it was a childhood spent listening to Sam Cooke; and as Estelle once explained [[http://www.nydailynews.com/entertainment/music/2008/10/31/2008-10-31_estelle_is_the_latest_addition_to_uk_sou.html?c nn=yes) to the New York Daily News, "We're fans of that tradition, and we've studied it. But we're a step removed. We're bringing to it our own struggle, beliefs and pain."
And is it any coincidence that some of the standout songs from these artists deal with one of the most universally felt and emotional of topics: Matters of the heart?
But here's the thing -- while you certainly can, as we already have, categorize these singers into one group, the reality is that they each bring such unique qualities to this continuing tradition.
"We have to group them together because there's the pop of the snare, and the little bit of griminess in the voice and the singing from the heart," says Billboard's Smith. "But all of those women, Eliza, Amy, Adele -- while they do come from the same tradition, they're all very much individuals. We have to see a little bit for Eliza, but I think that's why Amy has the following she has still, even though she hasn't had a record out in a minute."
And when it comes to Adele, particularly with "21," it's less about her reimangining of tradition and more about her ability to sing with a room-filling authenticity.
"You can deck out in beehive hairdo's all you want, but if the words don't connect with the listener on a visceral level, where the singer seems to understand the gravity of what's being sung, then it's just fashion," says Thompson. He notes that could be why people seem to be connecting so well with Adele, because of the way she can sing a ballad with "a warmth and emotion behind it that's extraordinarily believable."
At the end of the day, while you can hear the influence of Northern soul, you also hear everything from Aretha Franklin to Sade and maybe even Bette Midler, Smith points out. It seems that what this artist really brings to the table is a back to basics approach to music.

[RossHolloway]

"We're at the point where listeners are getting so tired of synthetic, manufactured voices. If you listen to '21,'...It sounds like there's no effect on her voice, much less autotune," Sirius/XM host Flick says. "People are just refreshed by hearing someone who can sing. She's not bending one word to sound like 25 syllables; she's counting on what she feels to be soulful enough for the song."
Hopefully, he adds, "the new trend is going to be toward great singing and great writing. It used to be that you couldn't get a deal if you couldn't write, play or produce. I think Adele takes us back to [that] idea."


I've heard the name Adele but had never heard her sound until recently when she did an interview on NPR. She does have a strong, solid and soulful sound and she definitely caught my attention. It's remarkable how American soul music is still having an impact on British music and singers going all the way back to the Rolling Stones and Beatles-and probably even before those groups and it seems that its still going on strong. Who are the current group of young soul singers here in the US? And please don't give me Usher, Beyonce or Rhianna [[I don't mind their music, but to me its more pop/club music than soul.) Some of it's good, some of it bland and forgettable. It seems the Brits have studied and embraced our soul acts more than our own American artists. The article gives a nice shout out to Motown, Ross, A. Franklin and E. James, et. al.

[juicefree20]

No, I don't think so.

I believe that there have always been singers from Britain who've been considered to be rather soulful. As a child, I remember earing singers such as Tom Jones & Dusty Springfield as soulful. Steve Winwood sounded pretty soulful while singing 'Gimme Some Lovin'' with The Spencer Davis Group & about a year ago, I was shocked to see a live video of LuLu throwing down some seriously bluesy vocals.

Moving closer to date, we've had people such as Lisa Stansfield, Mick Huckenall [['Holding Back The Years' was a mutha!), George Michael & Steve Winwood STILL holding it down.

As for the tendency for today for the abuse of autotune, I believe that it's one of those things which will pass. I believe that much of it came from Hip-Hoppers giving a nod of respect to Roger Troutman, whose music has been sampled like crazy. I also remember the trend increased when Teddy Riley began his foray from mere producer to vocalist.

Another producer turned rapper, turned singer, Kanye' West ramped it up, more rappers such as Snoop Dogg began 'singing' via the aid of autotune & in some cases [[Snoops 'Sensual Seduction', for one), it actually added a degree of charm. At least to me it did.

I guess that all that we're seeing is people imitating a sound that's worked for others. Some really don't need autotune, others, would be dead in the water without it.

It's the vocal equivalent of the time when 808's, Keyboard samplers & workstations, where people who didn't have a vast musical education could sit in their bedrooms & sequence to their hearts desire. It seems to me that autotune is an extension of that mindset.

I believe that Britain has had its share of soul singers. But just as with many of the most soulful singers from our shores, I wonder how many never became popular enough to gain notice & attention?

[tamla617]

juice
lulu,if she'd been pushed in the right direction,could have been really,really special.singing shout as a 15[[?) year old.unbelievable.to sir with love.and singing with chaka khan and anastasia last year she was very good and hasnt aged that much.as a soul singer she went for money making pop.

rumours of a british soul invasion have been over estimated!

[theboyfromxtown]

Without a doubt, Europe still rates America when it comes to music and particularly our type of music. But whereas it was current artists that produced role models, that doesn't seem to be happening nowadays and folks are going back in time. I find this more so in France.

But Juice's last comment is so very very true.

[marv2]

Here is my favorite French Soul Singer..........Vigon and doing "the Harlem Shuffle"!



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yI6_es6Lkow&playnext=1&list=PLC767C9ED1EF2E84A

[smark21]

"We're at the point where listeners are getting so tired of synthetic, manufactured voices. If you listen to '21,'...It sounds like there's no effect on her voice, much less autotune," Sirius/XM host Flick says. "People are just refreshed by hearing someone who can sing. She's not bending one word to sound like 25 syllables; she's counting on what she feels to be soulful enough for the song."
Hopefully, he adds, "the new trend is going to be toward great singing and great writing. It used to be that you couldn't get a deal if you couldn't write, play or produce. I think Adele takes us back to [that] idea."


[/B]

I like that comment about how one can be soulful without having to oversing or stretch out a one syllable word into 25 syllables. Can't stand that kind of self indulgent oversinging. Used sparingly [[and with 3-4 4 syullables, not 25) it can be very effective, but not when it's abused like many of the American Idol contestants or singers like Christina Aguliera.

[MIKEW-UK]

It all depends on what one considers to be soul music. Depends where you personally draw the line.

I have seen too many false dawns in the UK of the next great British soul singer, and they just don’t fill those shoes. Over recent years in the UK, we have had a tidal wave of hype launching the careers of so-called Soul Divas; Duffy, Adele, Amy Winehouse, Estelle, Joss Stone, and Leona Lewis. Singers they are. Soul Divas they ain’t! It’s the PR machine trying to market them into a retro fashion market.

I was first entranced by R&B / Soul in the early 60s when the only way you would ever be aware of such music outside of London was by listening to Radio Luxembourg, a radio station that wasn’t even in the UK. Already captured by the music, I was stunned when I started to go to concerts and saw that the music form was multi-dimensional, in that the delivery of the music was in itself an art form quite unlike anything that had ever been seen before in the UK. The energy, the passion, the heartfelt delivery, the choreography, stage presence and ability to command an audience, the raw and utterly genuine emotions, even the threads only served to further showcase, illuminate and differentiate the art form.


But the UK market was buying anaemic copies of Black American recordings such as Do You Love Me by Brain Poole and The Tremeloes, or You Really Got a Hold On Me by the Beatles. I readily acknowledge the roles played by the Beatles, Rolling Stones, Spencer Davis Group, and Georgie Fame etc in encouraging awareness of Black American music. One has to appreciate the truth and genuine talent of Dusty Springfield and her brave and successful initiatives to have Motown artists on prime time TV. And I absolutely respect Mick Hucknall for his sincere devotion to the black music art form, along with Rod Temperton, and groups like Heatwave, The Average White Band and Delegation.

However, if it’s soul singing we’re talking about, give me the genuine US home-grown article any day. Jesse James, Syl Johnson, The O’Jays, Eddie Hinton, Calvin Richardson, Mel Waiters, or Margie Joseph, Patti Labelle, Jennifer Holliday, Barbara Mason and Aretha for example. No one in the UK could even come close to those artists as singers of what I contend to be soul music. And whilst fashions and presentation has evolved over the years, one can still count on impassioned delivery and confident stagecraft from US soul singers. You won’t see it from those UK ‘Soul Divas’ I mentioned above.


Sad to say, soul music in America itself has been undermined over recent years by disco, rap, video production, marketing based more upon appearances than talent, and technologies which seek to supplant natural talent with artificial aids. The homogenisation and plagiarisation of soul music, the ‘borrowing’ of the art form by popular music for the youth market, has taken its toll. It’s ironic and sad when the media contends that you have to go to the UK market to find ‘soul’ singers when you have so many great American artists who could do with just a little of the attention and marketing dollars to support them. Seems many have had to return to the church to make a living in the gospel market where there talents are still very much appreciated.


So I’ll stick with my version of soul music, continue to be clear in my own mind as to what it is, and be very discerning as to who gets to be admitted to that very special and zealously guarded category.

Oh, and I am not expecting much support on this, some of you might even be outraged or assert I'm narrow minded, I’m just giving my own contribution to the forum for what it’s worth. Each to their own.

[juicefree20]

John:

Thank you. Just like the blind squirrel & the broken clock, I sometimes get close to being right!

Smark:

It's like watching "Groundhog Day", or even worse than that, "The Invasion Of The Bodysnatchers"!

They're like succubus, without the benefit of sex!

[stephanie]

Hey what about Eric Burdon and the Animals they were the closest white got to black in England with the exception of the Spencer Davis Group. Gimme Gimme Some Lovin was great but the brits will remember Somebody Help Me I have the 45 thanks to my mother she loved Brits doing soul. Lulu was a great contender and I really thought she was going to stay huge in the US after to Sir with Love but alas it didnt happen but she is well respected. Joss Stone was one that I thought was going to stay at the top but she is no match for Hucknall and his sincerity. I always wondered if she was trying to be the Sandie Shaw of this generation by not wearing shoes.

[juicefree20]

MikeW

That's one hell of a post right there!

we do have a lot of young people who can really sing. Unfortunately, I see the problem being that so many folks have grown up LISTENING to Soul music, as opposed to genuinely FEELING it & there's a hell of a difference between the two. Many of the great artists that I grew up listening to had a few common threads that bound them together.

Many of them were steeped in the church. Think of just about any of the truly great vocalists from the 50s & 60s & you'll find that most of them have their origins in the church. Many of them were also from the South, which is an experience that most young people today whom while reading about it in books, truly can't understand. True Soul music was & is deep & I believe that those 2 factors were an integral part of our music, especially the church & when one is removed from the other, it affects the final result.

As such, I believe that most of today's younger artists have LISTENED to Soul music, then attempt to emulate it by 'over-souling' everything in the attempt to display just how much soul they have. This tendency tends to render their attempts as mimicry or an affected performance, missing many of the nuances of true Soul music.

It kinda reminds me of 'The Little Rascals', where the pretentious rich kids would get up there & put on their overblown performances as though they were doing it by rote...just a cutesy performance devoid of any true feeling or passion. Only to have the little raggedy kids, get up there & win everybody over with their sincerity & lack of self-importance.

Too often, I get the impression that these folks aren't singing TO us, but rather, singing down AT us.

Too many are to giving us so much of the 'ifs', 'ands' & 'buts', that they miss all of the meat of the damn meal.

I can't blame them too much because this has basically become the status quo. There are a lot of talented young people out there & as soon as the public gets tired of what they're being programmed by the industry, those real voices will have their turn to shine. As for great Soul singing, there are a host of original Classic Soul artists & Doo Woppers wo are singing their natural azzez off & I've been blessed to see them quite frequently.

True Soul music has never died, but damned if they're not trying to kill it off.

[juicefree20]

Ironically, some of the best music of the 80s & 90s were given us by groups such as Loose Ends, 52nd St., Soul II Soul, The Brand New Heavies & songstresses such as N'Dea Davenport, Caron Wheeler, Sade & others.

[daddyacey]

But then look at the artists mentioned by all of you. They come from ,more or less ,the same environmental and social level "class" as the original evolving so called SOUL Music ,its artists and audience. Also they were exposed to it and identified with the sound and the message in Soul Music. We admit that SOUL is a feeling. So honestly we Black Americans can't truly claim it as ours exclusively. The same environment would yeild the same feeling in another group of people ,only in a different chord/music structure. Now thats what we can claim ,the creation of the SOUL Music structure ,the BLUES ,FUNK ,etc. But that feeling is universal ,some got it more than others thats all. And if you got it ,no matter what else the person is , we give them the respect by recognition. If anything SADE and the others mentioned sound more soulful than "Black". at least IMO.

[juicefree20]

Ahhhh...but Daddy but there's a huge difference between then & now & the primary difference is that video has made the world a much smaller place. I'm speaking more about here at home, let me explain...

Though true that they come from the same environment as most of us did, unlike today, due to the regionality of our day, the world was a much smaller place & each region had their own style, approach & sound. I would be willling to make the case that the fact that the influence of video has a lot to due with the sameness that we hear these days. Folks are exposed to music in a very visual way, something that wasn't rammed down our throats endlessly through videos & 20 different music channels.

For example, remember the days when the 'Blaxploitation' films was something that was uniquely ours? Now think of the last 20 years, when young whites influenced by Hip-Hop & videos were running around calling themselves 'Wiggers" & kids in Iowa whom previously knew nothing about a bandana & slung nothing more than a slingshot, suddenly pranced around like they were gangstas.

I guess that I'm saying that this familiarity has served to create folks whom are rather clone-like in nature. Remember when everyone was trying to produce songs that sounded like Teddy Riley? Then, everyone seemed to be trying to produce songs that sounded like Pete Rock, then Timbaaland or Puffy or Premiere & now, it's Kanye'. And unlike the artists of our day, you couldn't tell a H-Town, from a Jodeci, from a Jade, from a SWV...and so on, and so on...etc.

It seems to me that today, one's environment & class has less to do with the music, because it seems as though there's been so much assimilation, as to render those differences pretty much a moot point. It seems to me as though damn near everyone is copying the style of whatever's & whomever is the latest flavor & truthfully, I believe that's due to the fact that the labels have gotten too damn complacent as regards to actually developing talent & daring to be different. I also believe that because it's much easier to plug-in & pull out these walking sound modules, because of their sameness, they're easily replaceable, as well as disposable.

For as long as people are willing to settle for bullshit, they'll continue to serve them a feast full of it.

More than social status, I believe that it's more a case of laziness, with damn near everyone jocking everyone else in search of grabbing a piece of that gold or platinum. I see it as a total lack of attention to craftmanship & trying to emulate soul, without truly understanding what makes soul music SOUL MUSIC.

Of course, I must offer the disclaimer that I could be completely & totally wrong about this.

Thus...autotune, the same damn beats & samples on damn near everyone's songs, etc., etc., etc, ad-infinitum.

[jsmith]

An extract from the article that opened this thread .....
With Adele, an obvious influence is the Northern soul movement that developed in the northern part of England in the '60s and '70s, inspired by the music that was coming out of the States at the time. The cultural shift was evident at nightclubs like the Twisted Wheel .......
The Twisted Wheel in Manchester was the soul allniter club that I frequented most Saturday nights from 1967 to 1969 and then on some additional occasions in 1970. It featured live acts just about every weekend [[Ben E King, Oscar Toney Jr, Jr Walker, Edwin Starr, Jimmy Ruffin, Billy Stewart, Ike & Tina Turner, etc).
By coincidence there has just been a documentary on BBC TV about Steve Winwood. In that, Eric Clapton stated that the 1st time he ever saw Stevie Winwood perform was in the Twisted Wheel in the mid 60's [[when Stevie was fronting the Spencer Davis Group & I guess Clapton had just quit the Yardbirds).
Stevie said [[in the prog) that he was never the same after hearing his 1st Ray Charles record; from then on, he just wanted to sound like Ray Charles. Stevie came from a musical family [[his dad played in a band) and started out with the guitar as his instrument of choice. When the SPG had their 1st hit, he blew all his royalties on a Hammond B3, so that he could sound even more like Ray Charles.
To us Brits, back in the 60's, the Beatles, Who & Stones were everyday WHEREAS the US soul singers [[with the passionate way they sang & performed) were always something REALLY SPECIAL. I guess that feeling of inspiration we got from soul music never left us & this has influenced those here that came after us.

[tomato tom]

So Cheryl Cole doesnt count then? [[HA HA HA HA..Falling on floor avin a laff giggles)

[dave_clegg]

An extract from the article that opened this thread .....
With Adele, an obvious influence is the Northern soul movement that developed in the northern part of England in the '60s and '70s, inspired by the music that was coming out of the States at the time. The cultural shift was evident at nightclubs like the Twisted Wheel .......
The Twisted Wheel in Manchester was the soul allniter club that I frequented most Saturday nights from 1967 to 1969 and then on some additional occasions in 1970. It featured live acts just about every weekend [[Ben E King, Oscar Toney Jr, Jr Walker, Edwin Starr, Jimmy Ruffin, Billy Stewart, Ike & Tina Turner, etc).
By coincidence there has just been a documentary on BBC TV about Steve Winwood. In that, Eric Clapton stated that the 1st time he ever saw Stevie Winwood perform was in the Twisted Wheel in the mid 60's [[when Stevie was fronting the Spencer Davis Group &
I guess Clapton had just quit the Yardbirds).
Stevie said [[in the prog) that he was never the same after hearing his 1st Ray Charles record; from then on, he just wanted to sound like Ray Charles. Stevie came from a musical family [[his dad played in a band) and started out with the guitar as his instrument of choice. When the SPG had their 1st hit, he blew all his royalties on a Hammond B3, so that he could sound even more like Ray Charles.
To us Brits, back in the 60's, the Beatles, Who & Stones were everyday WHEREAS the US soul singers [[with the passionate way they sang & performed) were always something REALLY SPECIAL. I guess that feeling of inspiration we got from soul music never left us & this has influenced those here that came after us.

Well put John, I agree with you, I was a Wheel regular from late '68 thro' til' Nov '70. the live acts were special, and the Spencer Davis Group opened Whitworth Street.:cool::cool:;)

[theboyfromxtown]

So Cheryl Cole doesnt count then? [[HA HA HA HA..Falling on floor avin a laff giggles)

Paulo

The US now has Piers Morgan and Cheryl Cole.

Who do you think gets the last laugh!

lol

[tomato tom]

Those POOR people!!! HA HA HA..Thanks mate..Paulo xxxx

[MIKEW-UK]

The original question at the start of the post was 'Have the Brits stole our soul'.

Answer .....NO! Nor did the Venezuelans, the French, the Germans, or the Egyptians. Nor any other country. And never did. It is not an art form that is inherent in the UK. Nor anywhere else in the world. Juice summed it up perfectly in an earlier post about time, place, and the church. I repeat..the CHURCH. That's where soul came from...and it wasn't an Anglican church in the UK. Nor a club in the UK. It was / is unique, distinctive and those who know it, love it.

Please, let's please not confuse Soul with the blues or R& B. We can talk forever about the Yardbirds, Eric Clapton, The Animals, Stevie Winwood, The Rolling Stones, Lulu, Tom Jones, John Mayall, Paul Jones, Long John Baldry, Alexis Corner. Keith Richards, Jimmy Page etc.
I did see some of them perform blues live , and I saw some of them backing live blues artists from the US such as John Lee Hooker.etc.

But that's the Blues. Or R&B. And the Blues and R&B, ain't SOUL.......

Yes, those UK artists played the blues.....
but no way could they/ did they perform as Soul artists.

I also went to The Twisted Wheel, The Torch etc for the sounds of soul, NOT the blues / R&B. Having seen blues performers [[ for example John Lee Hooker in the Quay club in Plymouth sat on a stool throughout, never standing, and sipping from a bottle of Jack Daniels,) there was no way I was confused about the difference between blues and soul. The blues was basic, earthy and a foundation. Yes, one expression launched another, but hey they were a million miles apart , and soul music was differentiated as we revelled in ever increasing smart orchestration, artful arrangements, sophisticated song structure, and clever lyrics. And then there was the delivery! The presentation to a live audience was crucial!!!

The whole point about Soul is it is fundamentally different in its PRESENTATION and COMPLEXITY than the blues/ r&b. When did the blues/r&b ever have arrangers? Choreography? When did the blues have two or three, four or even five part harmony?

I'm getting kind of frustrated. My whole life from a boy to an old? man has been enhanced and invigorated by the contributions of those performances by US soul artists, musicians, arrangers, arrangers, engineers etc. I've loved and continue to love what they deliver. I noted Martha Reeves comments about the great Detroit musicians who are left on the sidelines. I am sure it's the same for those in Memphis, Muscle Shoals, Philadelphia, the Bay area, Texas. Louisiana, etc.
Maybe I'm off point, maybe I'm at fault, but soul is soul, and to me is a a distinct, sophisticated, unique and precious art form and should be recognised as such, even if it can't be protected or kept alive.

Sorry, I just can’t accept pretenders, and I ‘d rather spend my money supporting genuine soul artists who have devoted their lives and their talents to the art of Soul Music.

[theboyfromxtown]

Mikew-uk

I'd have to say that your view is typical of many Brits.

[MIKEW-UK]

Mikew-uk

I'd have to say that your view is typical of many Brits.

I don't know what the typical view is of the many Brits? Is it expansive / narrow minded / on the money/ way off beam?

I'm reflecting my own personal views, I simply don't know if any other Brits would agree with me....maybe not, which is perfectly OK. No one is going to get hurt, either way.

[roger]

Mikew-uk

I'd have to say that your view is typical of many Brits.

Well .. I must be a "typical Brit" then .. though I think the term "Typical British Soul Music Fan" is more precise.

Try as I might I just can't accept a lot of these British acts as "Soul" .. especially those '60s acts mikew-uk brought up .. Yardbirds, Eric Clapton, The Animals, Stevie Winwood, The Rolling Stones, Lulu, Tom Jones, John Mayall, Paul Jones, Long John Baldry, Alexis Corner. Keith Richards, Jimmy Page .. etc. etc.

I stayed in on Friday night and watched the BBC documentary of STEVIE WINWOOD, misleadingly [[ in my opinion ) entitled "English Soul" .. yes he was/is a very talented musician and vocalist .. and some of those SPENCER DAVIS GROUP records in the '60s were very good .. I bought "Gimme Some Loving" back in '66 so it must have had something going for it. :)

This is the show .. for those able to watch it ..

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00srj7k

But when all is said and done, tracks like "Gimme Some Loving", "I'm A Man" etc. were just good R&B/Soul influenced recordings, as opposed to actual R&B/Soul, and it didn't take Mr Winwood long to abandon his flirtation with "Soul". The documentary managed to illustrate this perfectly, though I doubt if the programme's producers realised it. As soon as Mr Winwood was able he retreated to a house in the country with some fellow musicians to "explore his art", and inspired by certain mind altering substances started to produce music that the unkind might call self indulgent and pretentious drivel.

I must have been feeling less "unkind" than usual on Friday night as I managed to persevere with the show, though it did constantly remind me why in 1968/9 I turned my back on "Rock" and its varients and became a "British Soul Fan".

If I think of the '60s American "Soul" artists who found themselves in a similar situation, royalty payments flowing in .. time to spare .. illicit drugs available if they chose to indulge .. isolated from society at large due to their fame .. names like MARVIN GAYE, STEVIE WONDER, CURTIS MAYFIELD, SMOKEY ROBINSON, JAMES BROWN, ISAAC HAYES crop up .. and yet all of those continued to record music that was well grounded in "Soul" .. even if a few individual recordings by these artists might have veered towards the self-indugent.

Roger

[daddyacey]

Point of view, that's the key to this original question. Brits may in fact have a different point of view than say an American would have. Soul is a result of social and environmental events ,unique to our history here. Point blank. As an African American that's a product of that history ,I am impressed ,highly, when a Brit like Adele or Stansfield ,Stone and more recently Ambrosious of Floetry ,speak with an undeniable English accent in conversation , but when they open their mouth to sing they take on a complete different sound and delivery ,enough to qualify as much more than just "emulation" of the sound of our home grown sound quality of the likes of our sisters ,like Etta ,Aretha and others. Take for example Teena Marie who is an admitted Honorary Sister of Soul in the U.S. as far as African Americans are concerned ,as that may not be stated outright ,but mutually understood and recognized among us ,but is from our history ,exposed to the various genres of music in the U.S.A. But for one to have the ability to express that SOULFULL feeling ,and not being from here in the U.S.A. ,and not being in and around the culture that is a major part of to the extent of what SOUL is all about ,like Adele ,Stansfield and Stone just to name a few, and come off as being just like one from here, is astounding to us ,noticed and respected. Thus raising the source to the actual asking of the original question. By personal expierience the first time I heard Joss Stone was when she did "The Choking Kind" ,from her first album. My jaw hit the floor , literally. Not so much as as the Soulfull sound of Tom Jones ,etc from the British Islands from years before and so called "Blue Eyed Soul" from here in the U.S.A. The newer artist's from abroad and England like Sade and those after were closer to what I knew as Soul than the Stones and others that were more Blues based than anything else.
No ,the Brits have not stole our Soul , but have emulated the style..................... very well.

[theboyfromxtown]

I agree with MikeW-UK and I also agree with Roger. Many of the older Brits seem to feel that way. I do too.

Roger will know the Ilford Palais...the place where I used to see Geno Washington and the Ram Jam Band perform all the great US hits that were current at that time. Geno had a good voice and put on a good show but it just wasn't the real thing.

[dave_clegg]

I agree with MikeW-UK and I also agree with Roger. Many of the older Brits seem to feel that way. I do too.

Roger will know the Ilford Palais...the place where I used to see Geno Washington and the Ram Jam Band perform all the great US hits that were current at that time. Geno had a good voice and put on a good show but it just wasn't the real thing.

Second rate compared to the real thing, but a good club act, and better than most of the others John. I too recall the atmosphere when the crowd started chanting 'Geno, Geno' it was sometimes the nearest we got to the real thing in the 60's.
I also think that the poor backing bands that were contracted for the tour by US artistes [[ with the exception of The Mike Cotton Sound) didn't help the cause.

I saw Mary Wells in Bradford at the Gaumont in 1964 supporting the Beatles, and she blew me away. Couldn't hear the Beatles!!!

[jsmith]

Jimmy James & the Vagabonds were about as close to home grown soul talent that we got here in the 60's [[& YES, I do know that Jimmy was born in the Caribbean). At least the group did justice to all the old Impressions, Temptations, Radiants tracks they covered; Geno was more of a showman but much less of a good singer.
As Dave says, many US acts were let down by their UK backing bands [[Garnett Mimms being a case in point). Mind you, the outfit that Elton John played keys for were much above the UK norm for bands backing visiting soul singers.
Just about all UK groups & solo singers covered numerous soul numbers, most very BADLY [[Hollies, Searchers, Killa Black, etc). Most weren't really bothered about being 'authentic' that just wanted pop hits from their cover versions. But some 'paid their dues' by making mention of the US artists they had borrowed the songs from .... Stevie Winwood was one of the good guys who's heart was in the right place .... however none [[or maybe just 1 or 2 out of every 100) came close to reproducing anything close to authentic soul.

[roger]

I agree with MikeW-UK and I also agree with Roger. Many of the older Brits seem to feel that way. I do too.

Roger will know the Ilford Palais...the place where I used to see Geno Washington and the Ram Jam Band perform all the great US hits that were current at that time. Geno had a good voice and put on a good show but it just wasn't the real thing.

Well .. I only moved to Ilford at the end of the '80s by which time the Ilford Palais was well past its golden days.

It was finally demolished about two years ago and is now the site of a block of .. "luxury" apartments.

I've been trying to think of any '60s British recordings that sound authentically "Soul" .. as opposed to just being "Soul/R&B" inspired and this is the nearest I can think of ..

KENNY LYNCH - "Moving Away"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x1mbzGYmN7I

Roger

[tomato tom]

I think a lot of them wished they were black. AND, before anyone starts a rant. It has been documented, in a quite a few publications of the past..Paulo xxx.

[RossHolloway]

I'm curious to know how everyone is distinguishing a Soul record from an R&B record?

[MIKEW-UK]

Ross, such a great question, one I often ask myself as confusion reigns, and I can't imagine there will be a unified view on this. I suppose each individual's opinion will be formed according to their personal circumstances, eg age, location, specific interest, exposure.

My approach is to recognise that R&B in the late 50's early-mid 60s is fundamentally different from the modern day definition of R&B.

When I think of R&B, I think of the musical phase after the blues [[Chuck Berry, Lloyd Price etc,,) and which evolved into a myriad of soul forms, whether for example the 'raw' sound of say Stax, or the more 'sophisticated' sound of Motown / Philly.

But there is a different form of Rhythm and Blues peculiarly British as performed by Spencer Davis Group, Rolling Stones, Georgie Fame, The Animals, Paul Jones and Mannfred Mann etc , and I don't personally see it as being the same as US Rhythm and Blues. For example I personally see a real difference between It's All over Now as delivered by The Valentinos and The Rolling Stones; to me, one is authentic, the other insipid.

Just Saying........

Today's use of R&B seems to be the province of 'urban' category music, e.g Usher, Ne-yo, etc. and what is the biggest mainstream category alongside RAP.

When I think of Soul, it covers a myriad of styles and although I think of it as really establishing itself from the early 60's, it nevertheless still gets recorded and performed by artists such as Willie Clayton, Jesse James, Sir Charles Jones, and the late Marvin Sease RIP.

I'm really fascinated to see what others say.

[RossHolloway]

MIKEW-UK. Agreed, but I guess you could say that about just any section of music: pop, rock&roll, jazz...
For the sake of this question let's just limit the difference between the two from the '60s.

[roger]

I'm curious to know how everyone is distinguishing a Soul record from an R&B record?

Well .. sometimes I don't .. and cop out by using the term "Soul/R&B" .. :)

However .. in terms of music in Britain in the late '60s there was a huge difference .. much as Mikew-uk has said.

In Britain the term "R&B" [[ "Rhythm and Blues" ) was understood to mean Popular Black American music from the '50s and early '60s .. "Soul" was considered to be the more modern gospel influenced material produced from 1963/4 onwards .. notably Motown/Stax/Atlantic releases .. FOUR TOPS/TEMPTATIONS/OTIS REDDING/WILSON PICKETT/ARETHA FRANKLIN etc. Under this distinction "R&B" was more roughly produced too .. whereas "Soul" could have very sophisticated arrangements, with orchestral arrangements to "sweeten" the sound, or Jazzy musical interludes.

'60s and early '70s British musical critics would debate about what was the first "Soul" record, as opposed to an "R&B" record .. i.e. the first popular recording to fuse "R&B" and "Gospel" .. before the sea-change within U.S. music in 1963/4 .. with popular candidates for this accolade being records like "Your So Fine" by THE FALCONS or "Its All In My Mind" by MAXINE BROWN.

A lot of the British groups that became popular in the mid '60s started out performing their own versions of late '50s U.S. R&B hits and considered themselves to be "R&B" acts.

This is the first L.P. by THE ROLLING STONES, from the track listing you can see that the songs are their own versions of songs made popular by U.S. "R&B" acts ..

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/THE-ROLLING-STONES---The-Rolling-Stones---1964-LP_W0QQitemZ230566527492QQcmdZViewItem?rvr_id=2144 79257694&rvr_id=214479257694&cguid=4fc772de12c0a0aa17a1a8c1ff92946d

Acts like THE YARDBIRDS/SPENCER DAVIES GROUP etc. similarly started out performing "R&B" or "Blues" material .. as in the '50s style music .. members of these acts formed "Progressive Rock" groups such as TRAFFIC/CREAM/LED ZEPPELIN/BLIND FAITH at the end of the '60s.

In my last few years at school .. 1969/70/71 .. my schoolmates who were into "Progressive Rock" [[ we are talking about white suburban kids in north/central England ) actually thought these acts were still producing "Blues" music and that it was somehow more "authentic" than the "Soul" music of ARETHA FRANKLIN/THE FOUR TOPS etc.

Strange times ..

Roger

[soulster]

I listened to Adele's album and it's not very good after the hit single. Bad material.