If Florence Was Still Alive

[aarondillon2011@gmail.com]

Does anyone think that if Florence was still alive and in good health that her and Mary might have something similar to the FLOS or at the very least occassionally perform together?

[jobeterob]

Sure, why not? Other than she said she didn't trust her because Mary would say one thing and do another.

But they were just kids. Nearly all the Supremes get along with perhaps the exception of one.

[RanRan79]

I think had Flo not passed away when she did, she would have eventually gotten back into the music industry and started out on part two of her solo career, hopefully to much success, or at the very least, some success. Thus she would not need a FLOS group. Mary has been pretty adamant about reuniting the group only with Diana, so with Flo still alive, the three of them would have done RTL probably even sooner than 2000.

[gman]

hard to say...perhaps she had some writing potential and would have done work style wise more in the vain of Nona Hendryx. I am not a big fan of the voices of Flo, Lynda or Susaye for more than a featured cut here and there.

[sup_fan]

I think had Flo not passed away when she did, she would have eventually gotten back into the music industry and started out on part two of her solo career, hopefully to much success, or at the very least, some success. Thus she would not need a FLOS group. Mary has been pretty adamant about reuniting the group only with Diana, so with Flo still alive, the three of them would have done RTL probably even sooner than 2000.

imagine if she was alive - would she have been invited to Motown 25?

David Ruffin wasn't
Eddie Kendricks wasn't
Marvelettes weren't

[RanRan79]

imagine if she was alive - would she have been invited to Motown 25?

David Ruffin wasn't
Eddie Kendricks wasn't
Marvelettes weren't

After her public comments about Gordy after the news broke of her financial situation, there's a good chance she would not have been invited. There's also the chance that even if invited she would not have wanted to be a part of anything that remotely honored Berry Gordy. And yet still there's the chance that if she and Diana had forged an adult relationship after their conversation shortly before Flo's death, that maybe Diana might have insisted Florence be a part of the reunion. Also Suzanne was apparently behind the whole project and her days at Motown were post Flo, so it's also possible that she may not have come to the table with the kind of negative attitude some others might have. A whole lotta what ifs because there's so many people involved in this. And lets be real, where their relationships and feelings for one another go, you never know what's going down with the Motown Family. One day folks hate each other and suing each other and all of that, the next day they're attending each other's events and taking photos. So who knows how this would've played out?

[gman]

The amount of time allotted Mary Wells and Martha Reeves was an embarrassment. If Suzanne was assigning performance times for those who were performing, she flunked Early Motown History 101

[RanRan79]

The amount of time allotted Mary Wells and Martha Reeves was an embarrassment. If Suzanne was assigning performance times for those who were performing, she flunked Early Motown History 101

Motown 25 was poorly put together. Some great moments for sure. But relegating Mary Wells, Martha and JR Walker to mere seconds was so disrespectful. Someone should have orchestrated a Marvelettes reunion. I think they all would've gotten together for that. The Contours...David and Eddie should've been there. I've seen it written in this forum about ratings and all of that; trying to pull in the most viewers, and I get that, but not for this type of program. Motown 25 came with a built in audience of multi millions. Motown was a defining chapter in the Baby Boomer history. The label and it's music was an important chapter in Black history. Diana Ross was still a hit making artist. Michael Jackson was in the midst of the success of the biggest selling album of all time. Hell, a tv special with just the two of them alone would've brought in a ratings bonanza! So who the hell needed Adam Ant and all these other non reasons why people love Motown? I don't object to Debarge and High Inergy, as a nod to the future of Motown, but as much as I love both acts, if anyone was to be cut down to seconds it should've been them. Let the legacy acts do what the people wanted to see.

Suzanne gets an F for sure.

[midnightman]

Honestly without MJ and Marvin and the Tempts/Four Tops showdown, Motown 25 would've been a total joke.

[RanRan79]

Honestly without MJ and Marvin and the Tempts/Four Tops showdown, Motown 25 would've been a total joke.

Diana and the Supremes were a headlining factor. On this one I can't blame Suzanne [[except maybe she should've insisted on the full medley). The Supremes themselves messed up the Supremes reunion.

[sup_fan]

unfortunately i was not there and, of course, have not seen the uncensored video

when you read all of the various accounts and try to meld that into 1 true story of what happened, none of them women come across very well.

D was disinterested, aloof. frankly didn't want to be there and that apparently came through clearly to M and C. She wrongly dismissed the idea of the medley and just assumed Someday would be sufficient. And she let her frustrations appear on stage with Mary's antics

M wrongly took this opportunity to try and showcase herself that night. She skipped out on the agreed upon costume guidelines by wearing red, she conspired with Cindy to adjust their traditional choreography so that they were standing next to Diana, she decided to takeover singing lead. Also why didn't she speak up when Diana said "oh the girls will be fine with just doing Someday?" They did do a brief bit of rehearsal, why didn't she and C say "no ma'am we will not be standing 100 feet behind you. let's stand side by side and sing together!" Why did she and C not just be up front about it?

C made the idiotic mistake of simply listening to M, which apparently she did again in 2000. Is Cindy not capable of having an intelligent thought of her own or expressing her own opinion? If she's foolish enough to simply follow whomever is standing closest to her then she's nothing more than a sheep being led to slaughter.

[Boogiedown]

unfortunately i was not there and, of course, have not seen the uncensored video

when you read all of the various accounts and try to meld that into 1 true story of what happened, none of them women come across very well.

D was disinterested, aloof. frankly didn't want to be there and that apparently came through clearly to M and C. She wrongly dismissed the idea of the medley and just assumed Someday would be sufficient. And she let her frustrations appear on stage with Mary's antics

M wrongly took this opportunity to try and showcase herself that night. She skipped out on the agreed upon costume guidelines by wearing red, she conspired with Cindy to adjust their traditional choreography so that they were standing next to Diana, she decided to takeover singing lead. Also why didn't she speak up when Diana said "oh the girls will be fine with just doing Someday?" They did do a brief bit of rehearsal, why didn't she and C say "no ma'am we will not be standing 100 feet behind you. let's stand side by side and sing together!" Why did she and C not just be up front about it?

C made the idiotic mistake of simply listening to M, which apparently she did again in 2000. Is Cindy not capable of having an intelligent thought of her own or expressing her own opinion? If she's foolish enough to simply follow whomever is standing closest to her then she's nothing more than a sheep being led to slaughter.

very interesting . I can see how Mary would have felt that the ownership of The Supremes had long ago rightly become hers , and she'd be damned if she'd retreat to the back of the stage while Diana presumed she was entitled to instantly reclaim it.

[sup_fan]

so why didn't she step up when whatever plans were being discussed that afternoon and say "hey now - no. Someday alone isn't going to be acceptable." or whatever. The different accounts seem to say that D just started calling the shots and M and C whispered angrily to each other.

again, of course i wasn't there. but again according to the books and sources, the girls did do a brief, haphazard rehearsal. Why didn't C and M say something or take a stand? Or just simply say "fuck this shit - i'm out of here."

[Boogiedown]

could be personality. I know I am often taken off guard in the course of certain situations where only later do i realize ,"I shoulda said..."..., "I could've done..." Once Mary had assessed the developing situation, she put on her "oh ,ya?" hat , and plotted a way to regain control.

[gman]

The tribute and newer acts should have been kept to snippets...but how do you get Linda Rondstadt to agree to appear under those terms? it would have been smarter to do the 25th isolating the performances to the acts that built the company...of course, a special titled Motown beyond or something like it featuring the current day acts would have brought in a much smaller audience....but compensating Wells Reeves and Walker for the brief snippets and including more of the missing folks [[Brenda, Kim, both Gladys's, Jimmy Ruffin, Contours) with a Yesteryear type special or a limited run series hosted by the featured acts would have been great.
Back to Flo....had her presence been tolerated, she would have done it in a heartbeat. We are talking massive exposure here and that is a once in a lifetime / rare event for someone who has been out of the business [[or in the case of Wells/Reeves/Walker, and Wilson) actively performing without a hit record for a very long time. 30 seconds is better than nothing with an TV audience that size.
I don't think Mary was on a set mission to display her solo talents...but she sure as hell wasn't going to let it be forgotten the Supremes were a group and she and Cindy were not there for the sake of honoring DR as a solo artist

[sup_fan]

i think Flo would have been snubbed for 25. there was just too much, IMO, still bitter between her and Berry. But then eventually i think there would have been some sort of reconciliation with Berry. like how Martha and others did. and then things would have been better for subsequent Motown specials.

[RanRan79]

unfortunately i was not there and, of course, have not seen the uncensored video

when you read all of the various accounts and try to meld that into 1 true story of what happened, none of them women come across very well.

D was disinterested, aloof. frankly didn't want to be there and that apparently came through clearly to M and C. She wrongly dismissed the idea of the medley and just assumed Someday would be sufficient. And she let her frustrations appear on stage with Mary's antics

M wrongly took this opportunity to try and showcase herself that night. She skipped out on the agreed upon costume guidelines by wearing red, she conspired with Cindy to adjust their traditional choreography so that they were standing next to Diana, she decided to takeover singing lead. Also why didn't she speak up when Diana said "oh the girls will be fine with just doing Someday?" They did do a brief bit of rehearsal, why didn't she and C say "no ma'am we will not be standing 100 feet behind you. let's stand side by side and sing together!" Why did she and C not just be up front about it?

C made the idiotic mistake of simply listening to M, which apparently she did again in 2000. Is Cindy not capable of having an intelligent thought of her own or expressing her own opinion? If she's foolish enough to simply follow whomever is standing closest to her then she's nothing more than a sheep being led to slaughter.

Your second sentence is spot on. There's enough blame for this to go around. I know Diana was ill but she could've rehearsed a minute or so of a medley. And Mary at this point was certainly more than capable of helping carry the load, so Diana could've said "I'll do some of the medley but I'm not feeling 100 percent, so Mary how about you do this part of the medley...". Maybe even having Cindy do something. Whatever needed to be done to make sure Diana was comfortable while still maintaining the integrity of the show.

I don't know if Mary was trying to showcase herself, but I do understand her idea that this isn't the 60s anymore. They were three very grown women with children. None of them should have been standing behind the other like it's a rewind of 15 years. I also understand Mary not wanting she and Cindy to barely be audible. Someone like me would've been upfront about what I will and won't do at this point, however, I can understand Mary being slightly hesitant to speak up if she feared that she would be in a dressing room shortly before the start of the show and be told that her services were no longer needed, with a huge security guard standing nearby to make sure she gets the message, simply because she voiced objection to a rewind of the clock. And Mary changing her dress at the last minute...I wonder how true this is. Cindy's dress doesn't look like it goes with what Diana has on either, and I don't think Cindy was in a place yet where she had all matters of gowns laying around to bring over with her. Even if Mary made a change I don't think it really mattered. As long as she still looked Supreme- and man did she ever- it shouldn't have mattered to anyone else.

If it's true that Diana pushed Mary because Mary took steps forward, Diana was wrong. She honestly get's the witch award for the night because that's not the type of thing you do because someone refuses to stay put behind you. But I'm not sure this ever really happened. And then that part where so many fans cry because "Mary started singing Diana's lead", I believe Mary's story where she says that Diana seemed disoriented and had forgotten the words so Mary took over. In the released footage there's a point where Mary is singing lead and then as Smokey approaches, Diana joins in on the "wooh" and Mary turns to Diana, signaling to her as if to say "okay, you got it now" but Diana doesn't get back in and Mary goes on. IMO Mary was the professional in that moment. She knew the words when Diana didn't, so she sang. Good for her.

But Mary knew she wasn't scheduled to call Berry down. Mary didn't have anything else scheduled for the show, so why would she call "Berry come on down"? Was she purposely being disruptive? Maybe. Was she caught up in the moment? Could be. And yet her doing that did not deserve Diana grabbing her mic or any of that childish nonsense. Diana could've simply added "Yes Berry, please come join us" and that would've been that.

When the media spoke about the Supremes reunion it was full of controversy. Three extraordinary Black women who had done an extraordinary thing together many years before had given the world the wrong kind of show. That's sad. RTL was a great place to rectify this and they couldn't even do that right. That's even sadder.

[reese]

Diana and the Supremes were a headlining factor. On this one I can't blame Suzanne [[except maybe she should've insisted on the full medley). The Supremes themselves messed up the Supremes reunion.

It might have worked better if they could have gotten together beforehand. I believe the other medleys in the show [[Miracles, Tempts/Tops, J5) had the backup vocals and instrumentation pre-recorded. Why this didn't happen for the Supremes medley is unknown. As it was, DMC didn't even get together for rehearsal until 30 minutes before the audience was to be let into the auditorium. That's why Diana thought they should just do SOMEDAY. Perhaps if they had gotten together beforehand they could have smoothed out any tensions that happened during the taping.

[sup_fan]

^that's a good point. it shouldn't have been out of the question to at least have a conference call between the girls to say hi, we're going to do this special together, ain't that kinda of exciting! at least some sort of contact prior to the show itself

[gman]

Mary very clearly offered the lead back to Diana...you cannot miss that in the released footage….regardless of anticipating the standard attention ratio DR was used to getting, MW expected a much more professional acting groupmate....this wasn't DR's greatest moment. Many said she was unnerved about appearing because she knew the way many alumni felt about her success and resented Berry's dedication to her...but how was she to not show? that would be a total lack of gratitude to the company and a very personal disrespect to him....and mountains of bad press for her...she wasn't well that night, and her nerves clearly got the best of her. Even from her entrance running down the aisle, she doesn't look comfortable with any of it....even the haters have to admit we've never seen DR like that....not her night...and unfortunately, a high profile, widely reported and historically documented one.

[midnightman]

Diana and the Supremes were a headlining factor. On this one I can't blame Suzanne [[except maybe she should've insisted on the full medley). The Supremes themselves messed up the Supremes reunion.

Right. Diana was sick and disoriented [[and depressed because she knew the feeling with old Motown heads was they hated her), Mary was enacting on revenge and Cindy was caught in the middle going along with Mary. What a damn shame. But they were young then...I know that moment didn't bring good memories to any of them.

Honestly Diana looked defeated there. And the press afterwards was worse.

[gman]

Initially, it looked like her big "bitch!" moment...but I was younger too. Now, I feel she did the best she could at that moment, and knew it would be difficult...and that was if everything went perfectly...as the world know's, it didn't. Can you imagine how she felt in the days and weeks following this?....Unfortunately my RTL feelings haven't mellowed at all yet.

[marv2]

Initially, it looked like her big "bitch!" moment...but I was younger too. Now, I feel she did the best she could at that moment, and knew it would be difficult...and that was if everything went perfectly...as the world know's, it didn't. Can you imagine how she felt in the days and weeks following this?....Unfortunately my RTL feelings haven't mellowed at all yet.

Berry Gordy banned her from the after party. You will not find any pictures of her there. You can find pictures of him escorting Miss Ross and her daughters away!

[floyjoy678]

I do think if Flo was alive there would have been a supremes reunion eventually just not sure if it would have been at Motown 25. I feel she would have told Mary and Diana to both grow up if she was in the middle of that mess. Also I'd think that they'd use the original lineup as opposed to the DMC lineup considering that's the lineup the public knew the most.

[detmotownguy]

so why didn't she step up when whatever plans were being discussed that afternoon and say "hey now - no. Someday alone isn't going to be acceptable." or whatever. The different accounts seem to say that D just started calling the shots and M and C whispered angrily to each other.

again, of course i wasn't there. but again according to the books and sources, the girls did do a brief, haphazard rehearsal. Why didn't C and M say something or take a stand? Or just simply say "fuck this shit - i'm out of here."
I vote for your last sentence!!! So they go from 4 songs to one. I doubt there was any communication at the rehearsal. Was Ross really sick? The only power M and C had was to say let's get the f outta here. They didn't get paid anyway cause wasn't it all to be donated for Sickle Cell Anemia? The whole deal was planned for shit.

[captainjames]

To answer the question about if Flo wa still alive;
No Flos.
No Dreamgirls book.
I don't think she would have been asked to Motown 25 so no Supreme reunion.
No RTL.

[RanRan79]

To answer the question about if Flo wa still alive;
No Flos.
No Dreamgirls book.
I don't think she would have been asked to Motown 25 so no Supreme reunion.
No RTL.

I don't see what Flo's living would have to do with the 70s Supremes getting together. I think there would be a FLOS. I also think RTL would've happened. I prefer to imagine that Flo would've never turned down a million or more dollars to do the reunion.

But I'm in total agreement about Dreamgirl. I've said it before, if Flo had lived Mary would've never written that book.

[PeaceNHarmony]

This query regarding Florence is presented in the subjunctive verb tense. Hence, the correct title of this thread should be revised to 'If Florence Were Still Alive'. Seriously. Are we savages?

[sup_fan]

I don't see what Flo's living would have to do with the 70s Supremes getting together. I think there would be a FLOS. I also think RTL would've happened. I prefer to imagine that Flo would've never turned down a million or more dollars to do the reunion.

But I'm in total agreement about Dreamgirl. I've said it before, if Flo had lived Mary would've never written that book.

I agree about the book DG. Not really sure when exactly Mary started waving the "flo was a martyr" flag but seems to me around the time of DG. But had Flo not died and there not been that tragic element to the story, then i think Mary's book would not have occurred.

As for the group history, I think the 70s Sups wouldn't have been any different. Barely a year after Flo died, the group disbanded. and all of the nonsense and poor management was occur well before Flo's passing. so that aspect of the history wouldn't have changed. nor would Mary's solo activity during the 70s.

I do not think Flo would have participated in Motown 25. i think they probably would have had Mary there, doing a little speech on the writers of motown [[like she did but got cut). and then Diana would have just done Mountain. mary would have been part of the finale and there never would have been a Sup reunion.

Also i don't know if Flo's professional career would have ever really been all that stupendous. Most accounts do have her starting to get her life together just prior to her death. So perhaps she would have made some headway with things. But she had a LOT of demons and i don't know that she had the resources or the perspective to deal with them properly. There might have been a little bit of resurgence but her timing was also poor, unfortunately. by 76 and 77, disco was the rage and Flo's voice really wouldn't have been a good fit for that IMO. It's quite possible that she would have remained in detroit, perhaps continuing on welfare or at the very least, living modestly.

[midnightman]

Wasn't Florence planning to write her own bio at the time of her death?

[kenneth]

Motown 25 was poorly put together. Some great moments for sure. But relegating Mary Wells, Martha and JR Walker to mere seconds was so disrespectful. Someone should have orchestrated a Marvelettes reunion. I think they all would've gotten together for that. The Contours...David and Eddie should've been there.

Isn't Motown 25 when the Temptations reunited with David and Eddie? Or is that something that happened following the success of the special?

[sup_fan]

The "Otis" temps reunited with David and Eddie prior to Motown 25. they did a Reunion package around 80/81. But basically the old feuds were not healed and by the time of M25, the two camps of David/Eddie and Otis/Melvin were at odds again

[midnightman]

Berry Gordy banned her from the after party. You will not find any pictures of her there. You can find pictures of him escorting Miss Ross and her daughters away!

At that time, Diana and Berry were still beefing. By 1985, you'd see Diana and Berry at the afterparty photos for Motown Returns to the Apollo. So it's not surprising Berry didn't want her there in '83. Besides by the time it aired, people had forgotten about the Supremes spat and were spazzing out on MJ's moonwalk.

[RanRan79]

I agree about the book DG. Not really sure when exactly Mary started waving the "flo was a martyr" flag but seems to me around the time of DG. But had Flo not died and there not been that tragic element to the story, then i think Mary's book would not have occurred.

As for the group history, I think the 70s Sups wouldn't have been any different. Barely a year after Flo died, the group disbanded. and all of the nonsense and poor management was occur well before Flo's passing. so that aspect of the history wouldn't have changed. nor would Mary's solo activity during the 70s.

I do not think Flo would have participated in Motown 25. i think they probably would have had Mary there, doing a little speech on the writers of motown [[like she did but got cut). and then Diana would have just done Mountain. mary would have been part of the finale and there never would have been a Sup reunion.

Also i don't know if Flo's professional career would have ever really been all that stupendous. Most accounts do have her starting to get her life together just prior to her death. So perhaps she would have made some headway with things. But she had a LOT of demons and i don't know that she had the resources or the perspective to deal with them properly. There might have been a little bit of resurgence but her timing was also poor, unfortunately. by 76 and 77, disco was the rage and Flo's voice really wouldn't have been a good fit for that IMO. It's quite possible that she would have remained in detroit, perhaps continuing on welfare or at the very least, living modestly.

Regarding Dreamgirl, my thoughts exactly Sup. Without the tragedy of Florence the book isn't as meaty. Honestly I feel like a lot of the Rossers have over reacted to Mary's portrayal of Diana in the first book. While it definitely didn't paint the picture of a Diana Ross who was considerate nor one of a Ross who was always nice, I don't think Mary did a real hatchet job on Diana's character. Sure it was an unflattering memory at times, and it entered ass whooping territory a few times like when Mary would delve into Diana's dating history as if that was Mary's business to tell. But it wasn't a hatchet job. Mary needed Flo's rape, drinking problems, etc to keep the story well rounded. Had Flo lived I don't think she would've given Mary the green light to discuss rape or alcoholism. And of course Flo's death really makes the entire story come together. Any great story with highs and lows needs a tragic death to really push it over the top. Without those things, publishers are not interested and Mary would've done something else. Also keep in mind that when Mary's book did come out it was all basically her word against Diana's, which is a battle Mary figured she'd win on the knowledge that Diana really wasn't one to defend herself in the media very often and also because Diana's diva behavior was already known, it was easy to paint that picture and people automatically believe every word and thus would've given Diana the side eye had she come out and said that's not how things went down. Had Flo lived, she would've been in a position to speak on anything Mary got wrong or anything Mary said that Flo might feel the need to give a different perspective.

[midnightman]

I appreciated Mary's honesty in the book. She didn't set out to attack Ross and destroy her career [[Diana at this point was already a living legend in the music industry), all she did was show "the other side" of Miss Ross. Did she exaggerate on some events? Yeah I can believe that but there was definitely some truth but honestly, I think Florence's book would've been more honest, it would've shown that despite their claims of being sisters, neither of them really look out for each other as they should've. Remember, they were brought together by a promoter when they were barely in high school, so save for Mary and Flo seeing each other from time to time and being acquaintances [[and Flo recommending Mary to join the Primettes), they weren't very close until they were brought together. If there was a real sister bond, maybe the Supremes' story would've been a lot different.

But then I think of how close the Beatles were AND LOOK WHAT HAPPENED TO THEM.

You notice that no one ever rants about the fallout between the Liverpool giants of pop and rock but we're still debating about the fallout of America's most successful black vocal group?

[RanRan79]

Also i don't know if Flo's professional career would have ever really been all that stupendous. Most accounts do have her starting to get her life together just prior to her death. So perhaps she would have made some headway with things. But she had a LOT of demons and i don't know that she had the resources or the perspective to deal with them properly. There might have been a little bit of resurgence but her timing was also poor, unfortunately. by 76 and 77, disco was the rage and Flo's voice really wouldn't have been a good fit for that IMO. It's quite possible that she would have remained in detroit, perhaps continuing on welfare or at the very least, living modestly.

I don't know if she had a lot of demons. Most folks point to one or two issues that seemed to weigh her down. Flo was never going to be a Diana Ross caliber star, but as I often say, when I go through my music collection and see names of singers who worked consistently, some with hits, some without hits, Flo wasn't any less a great talent than they were. Would Flo have had this big career? I don't know. That really is such a hard thing to speculate on. I like to think she would've because I'm a huge Flo fan and in a do over reality, I'd want her to succeed to her greatest possible capability.

I happen to believe Flo would've been a great fit for disco. I can hear her on some of First Choice's stuff and Ruby Andrews. So her comeback might have been right on time had she lived. A disco comeback project like Esther Phillips.

Welfare...remember by the time Flo died she had been off welfare for some time. No reason to think she was rushing to get back on it.

[RanRan79]

Wasn't Florence planning to write her own bio at the time of her death?

I think that was one of Phony Turner's tall tales based off of the already public information that he had regarding the interviews Flo had with Peter Benjaminson.

[RanRan79]

I appreciated Mary's honesty in the book. She didn't set out to attack Ross and destroy her career [[Diana at this point was already a living legend in the music industry), all she did was show "the other side" of Miss Ross. Did she exaggerate on some events? Yeah I can believe that but there was definitely some truth but honestly, I think Florence's book would've been more honest, it would've shown that despite their claims of being sisters, neither of them really look out for each other as they should've. Remember, they were brought together by a promoter when they were barely in high school, so save for Mary and Flo seeing each other from time to time and being acquaintances [[and Flo recommending Mary to join the Primettes), they weren't very close until they were brought together. If there was a real sister bond, maybe the Supremes' story would've been a lot different.

But then I think of how close the Beatles were AND LOOK WHAT HAPPENED TO THEM.

You notice that no one ever rants about the fallout between the Liverpool giants of pop and rock but we're still debating about the fallout of America's most successful black vocal group?

If you pay attention to Flo's quotes [[not necessarily Peter Benjaminson's personal "insights") in the Flo bio, she definitely doesn't hold back on her POV of Diana being a bitch during some of those Supremes days particularly during the 66-67 period. And of course the infamous reunion of the three original Supremes in 1968. However, Flo, who obviously knew and understood sister relationships after having so many, seemed adamant that most of their issues were that of sisters. You fight but you love. She seems genuinely confused when she talks about how it is three people [[she said three, not two) could start off loving each other and then hate each other. Of course the answer is obvious: you put a man between two or more women and there's bound to be some ish. From my personal POV that's what went wrong: Gordy.

As for the Beatles, it's my understanding that fans of that group have spats that make what happens with Supremes fans look like Disney Channel. But I do think there's an element of people out there who are invested in Black people beefin with one another, and an even more specific element of that segment who are invested in Black women beefin with one another.

[midnightman]

They do have an investment in that. It's quite pathetic. Flo is right, she spares no one in the group. Gordy was definitely a catalyst to what went wrong with the Supremes.

[luke]

I’ve never understood the big deal about Mary and Cindy having to stand behind Diana. In many shows for example on you tube they are standing next to each other...not always but often. And with no rehearsal time why shouldn’t they all stand together???

[midnightman]

Doesn't look like they rehearsed at all. All three women were going through something in 1983.

[sup_fan]

Regarding Dreamgirl, my thoughts exactly Sup. Without the tragedy of Florence the book isn't as meaty. Honestly I feel like a lot of the Rossers have over reacted to Mary's portrayal of Diana in the first book. While it definitely didn't paint the picture of a Diana Ross who was considerate nor one of a Ross who was always nice, I don't think Mary did a real hatchet job on Diana's character. Sure it was an unflattering memory at times, and it entered ass whooping territory a few times like when Mary would delve into Diana's dating history as if that was Mary's business to tell. But it wasn't a hatchet job. Mary needed Flo's rape, drinking problems, etc to keep the story well rounded. Had Flo lived I don't think she would've given Mary the green light to discuss rape or alcoholism. And of course Flo's death really makes the entire story come together. Any great story with highs and lows needs a tragic death to really push it over the top. Without those things, publishers are not interested and Mary would've done something else. Also keep in mind that when Mary's book did come out it was all basically her word against Diana's, which is a battle Mary figured she'd win on the knowledge that Diana really wasn't one to defend herself in the media very often and also because Diana's diva behavior was already known, it was easy to paint that picture and people automatically believe every word and thus would've given Diana the side eye had she come out and said that's not how things went down. Had Flo lived, she would've been in a position to speak on anything Mary got wrong or anything Mary said that Flo might feel the need to give a different perspective.

i believe there were discussions on here [[memory might be failing me) that Mary's original approach to Dreamgirls was to be less sensational. But the publisher and/or collaborator pushed her to amp up the dirt a bit as that was the trend at the time - think Mommie Dearest but within the Sups

Certainly Mary had every right to tell her side of the story in whatever manner she desired. I do feel that the book is very one-sided and does lack a bit of a balanced perspective. of course that's not surprising - most people writing their story would do the same. But the general description of diana includes practically every snipe or diss she ever committed and barely addresses the fact that her voice and showmanship were one of the primary reasons as to why the group shot to super stardom. Now i'm not saying F and M weren't also quite responsible for the success too, especially early on. I absolutely believe that all 3 were very talented entertainers and as such created a truly unique group.

[floyjoy678]

Mary put it best when she once said "the group really started breaking down once outside influences started coming" [[Berry, Tommy). I remember Smokey said that he blames a lot of Flo's downfall on Tommy because he believed he was getting in her ear.

If Flo had lived I don't think she'd have been invited to Motown 25, from the way she talked of Berry in 1975 it sounds like they really had a huge dislike for one another. I feel Flo would have thrived in Broadway or on a sitcom. For some reason I can hear her tearing up the song "Burnin' Love". With Flo and Diana talking again shortly before her death, I do think eventually there would have been a successful reunion of the original group.

[captainjames]

Berry was all [[or at least most) of the things everyone has mentioned here but Motown and the Supremes and all of the artists needed a Berry Gordy to help them be successful. Detroit was not the only place on the map that had all this talent in one neighborhood or one place. Ohio, Philly and Chicago had just as much talent and the timing was right in the 60's but we needed a Berry Gordy with that type vision.

So if Florence was still still alive........Again I don't think the Former Ladies of the Supremes would have existed especially with the tag FLOS. [[just my opinion)

Diana first reaction if I remember to Mary about the book was "How dare you write that about our Friend" [[This was Diana's reaction to Mary about the rape). Many years have gone by but that is how I remember her first reaction being. If Florence was still alive then that takes away from the tragic piece of her death and the rape would have never been known because I doubt Flo would have green light that.

NO Dreamgirls - Flo contacted Diana later after the dismissal from the group and so that bond between them stilled existed.

Supreme reunion ?? - naw not the way it came off and not without Flo and Diana sitting down and talking. I think there was a hard wedge between Flo and Berry and I think Suzanne would not have invited her for fear of Flo throwing Berry off the stage.

I loved Flo but its hard to say whether she would have been a BIG MAJOR STAR. I believe she would have made more history but eventually fizzled out because I see Flo as more of a homebody or not one to give 200%. I listen to some of her adlibs on the outtakes of songs and she is sometimes very vocal in regard to "No More" or "Thats it".

[sup_fan]

^well stated

Berry has faults just like any person. same with D, M, F, etc, etc. I do think he tried to focus on the necessary business decisions and not get too wrapped up in the emotional element. this "product" called the Supremes was in danger of collapsing due to ALL of the internal conflicts. at the end of the day, at the head of the company, he had to make some tough but required decisions. Sure he made some mistakes along the way and also contributed to the situation. But so did Flo. clearly she ended up the worst but she also made her share of errors. they all did

[lucky2012]

^ This. You beat me to the punch, sup_fan. I agree with captainjames and you.

[midnightman]

Oh wow. So Diana was pissed off at Mary for including Flo's rape?! That's why she stopped talking to her?! Would've made sense! Especially if Flo wasn't willing to mention it. I don't think she mentioned it to Peter when they were talking, did she???

She probably didn't care what Mary said about her [[or maybe she did, she's all about image too) but yeah if Florence wasn't ready to talk about the rape incident, that was wrong to bring up then. :/

[sup_fan]

I don't know how upset Diana could really be about the rape because I believe there are court documents in Detroit on this case. going off of my memory here but i believe Bayou on here mentioned that Flo actually testified in front of her attacker. So technically it's a matter of public record

that said, it could still be a point of taste and level of appropriateness to bring up such a deeply personal story for someone other than yourself

but then given the potential impact it had on Flo and her personal and mental well-being and how she handled the highly stressful work load of a Supreme might have deemed it necessary. all of the books talk about Flo's moodiness and how her personality really controlled how everyone handled her. and with the massively stressful and high-pressure career, it at least provides some explanation as to why she was struggling so much

[Boogiedown]

if Flo were alive today,


... she would've been placed three rows behind Mary Wilson at the Motown 60 taping, seated there to watch Diana Ross still making goo goo eyes at Berry Gordy.:rolleyes::p

[marv2]

if Flo were alive today,


... she would've been placed three rows behind Mary Wilson at the Motown 60 taping, seated there to watch Diana Ross still making goo goo eyes at Berry Gordy.:rolleyes::p

She'd probably be in jail for kicking their a**es!

[Boogiedown]

hehehehehehehehehe!

[midnightman]

I don't know how upset Diana could really be about the rape because I believe there are court documents in Detroit on this case. going off of my memory here but i believe Bayou on here mentioned that Flo actually testified in front of her attacker. So technically it's a matter of public record

that said, it could still be a point of taste and level of appropriateness to bring up such a deeply personal story for someone other than yourself

but then given the potential impact it had on Flo and her personal and mental well-being and how she handled the highly stressful work load of a Supreme might have deemed it necessary. all of the books talk about Flo's moodiness and how her personality really controlled how everyone handled her. and with the massively stressful and high-pressure career, it at least provides some explanation as to why she was struggling so much

Could be or are we mistaking Flo for Tammi??? But she may have identified him? I don't know.

[marv2]

Could be or are we mistaking Flo for Tammi??? But she may have identified him? I don't know.

Florence identified Reggie. He was later shot to death in the street in Detroit in 1972.

[RanRan79]

Maxine wrote that Flo told her family and days later they found out that the rapist had been beaten up. She says that's the only "justice" Flo got in the situation and makes no mention of the law getting involved. Mary wrote about Flo going to the cops and testifying in court. Only she can say what source she used for this. Maxine's book isn't well put together, and she jumps around so much that it'll make your head spin, but I can't see her devoting any portion of her book to Flo's rape and leave out how brave her sister was for going to the cops and testifying in court, both of which would've been rare for any female during that time, but especially rare for a Black female, and even rarer for a poor Black female. I don't think anything other than street justice happened in this case.

[RanRan79]

I don't know how upset Diana could really be about the rape because I believe there are court documents in Detroit on this case. going off of my memory here but i believe Bayou on here mentioned that Flo actually testified in front of her attacker. So technically it's a matter of public record

that said, it could still be a point of taste and level of appropriateness to bring up such a deeply personal story for someone other than yourself

but then given the potential impact it had on Flo and her personal and mental well-being and how she handled the highly stressful work load of a Supreme might have deemed it necessary. all of the books talk about Flo's moodiness and how her personality really controlled how everyone handled her. and with the massively stressful and high-pressure career, it at least provides some explanation as to why she was struggling so much

If it was indeed a case, it was a case involving a juvenile. I don't know how public that record would be.

[midnightman]

Wow...

So Mary and her sister had different accounts!

Wow...

[reese]

Maxine wrote that Flo told her family and days later they found out that the rapist had been beaten up. She says that's the only "justice" Flo got in the situation and makes no mention of the law getting involved. Mary wrote about Flo going to the cops and testifying in court. Only she can say what source she used for this. Maxine's book isn't well put together, and she jumps around so much that it'll make your head spin, but I can't see her devoting any portion of her book to Flo's rape and leave out how brave her sister was for going to the cops and testifying in court, both of which would've been rare for any female during that time, but especially rare for a Black female, and even rarer for a poor Black female. I don't think anything other than street justice happened in this case.

This was one of the things that confused me when I read Maxine's book. Its quite a leap from saying someone sent their assailant to prison to saying the assailant just received a thorough beat-down.

In a 1986/1987 Players article, Mary was asked something about whether she had received any negative feedback from revealing Flo's rape. I don't remember her entire answer, but she did mention that Flo's family wasn't happy about it.

[marv2]

This was one of the things that confused me when I read Maxine's book. Its quite a leap from saying someone sent their assailant to prison to the assailant just receiving a thorough beat-down.

In a 1986/1987 Players article, Mary was asked something about whether she had received any negative feedback from revealing Flo's rape. I don't remember her entire answer, but she did mention that Flo's family wasn't happy about it.


I have that Players Magazine. Reggie Harding played pro basketball for the Pistons and before that a semi pro team in Toledo. He was still a thug all the while. Robbing people etc. After he was shot and killed, they had a tough time burying him. He was 6'8" and somehow his grave was dug several inches too short! LOL! That held things up a bit.

[RanRan79]

This was one of the things that confused me when I read Maxine's book. Its quite a leap from saying someone sent their assailant to prison to saying the assailant just received a thorough beat-down.

In a 1986/1987 Players article, Mary was asked something about whether she had received any negative feedback from revealing Flo's rape. I don't remember her entire answer, but she did mention that Flo's family wasn't happy about it.

As a fan and admirer of Flo's work, and thus find Flo an interesting person, I'm glad to have some insight into some of what might have been going on in her mind during the point when her time with the group became so tumultuous. But it boggles my mind that Mary would feel so free to offer this information to the word without at least speaking to the family first and finding out how they might feel about it. Did Flo's daughters even know what happened to her prior to Mary's announcement? I always give Mary credit for not touching the subject of Rhonda's paternity, which I'm sure she was as convinced as a lot of other people and probably had more inside information about Rhonda's bio dad. On the flip I lost a lot of respect for Raynoma when I read that she announced to the world Rhonda's paternity on national tv. How low down and dirty can you be? But Mary should have recognized how sensitive and personal a subject rape is and asked the Ballards for permission to go there. Water under the bridge now of course, as they appear to have forgiven her and moved on.

[sup_fan]

but i think mary's rationale was that there needed to be the incident in order to tie that to Flo's gradual deterioration and inability to cope with the problems that arose. otherwise it sort of just makes her look like a mental case. It helps to also build the victim story

[floyjoy678]

I might get my head bitten off for this: but I really do believe Flo had an undiagnosed bipolar disorder. The way Mary and Diana have written about her rollercoaster moods and how one minute she'd explode about something then after exploding she'd act like nothing was wrong.

[midnightman]

This was one of the things that confused me when I read Maxine's book. Its quite a leap from saying someone sent their assailant to prison to saying the assailant just received a thorough beat-down.

In a 1986/1987 Players article, Mary was asked something about whether she had received any negative feedback from revealing Flo's rape. I don't remember her entire answer, but she did mention that Flo's family wasn't happy about it.

https://media2.giphy.com/media/9xciXC6jG9lH7wM4KH/giphy.gif

[midnightman]

I might get my head bitten off for this: but I really do believe Flo had an undiagnosed bipolar disorder. The way Mary and Diana have written about her rollercoaster moods and how one minute she'd explode about something then after exploding she'd act like nothing was wrong.

As someone who loves Florence Ballard, I agree she was probably bipolar. It explains her mood swings. Both Diana and Mary wrote that they couldn't deal with her mood swings. You definitely won't get your head bitten off for that. All three women dealt with issues their own way. All three were VERY YOUNG when they became instant superstars in 1964 and dealt with success their own ways. It was harder to deal with for other people [[Flo) than others [[Diana & Mary in their own ways).

[midnightman]

but i think mary's rationale was that there needed to be the incident in order to tie that to Flo's gradual deterioration and inability to cope with the problems that arose. otherwise it sort of just makes her look like a mental case. It helps to also build the victim story

Mary must've been put into a pickle though. Especially if she was told to make the bio "more sensational" [[though it's true that Diana was pretty much a hustler and she had the talent to back up that hustling lol). But she probably knew she would get the wrath of some Motown fans, some DR fans and Flo's family. This was 1986 too. Everyone's tea was starting to come out in the '80s. Mommy Dearest had come out in the late 70s and that started many celebrities' relatives and whomever to write books on legendary celebrities.

[sup_fan]

^exactly midnight - on both of your posts

I don't think there's anything wrong with guessing or suggesting that Flo might have been bipolar or had mental issues. it's not a sin or frankly uncommon. lots of people suffer from that and it's just unfortunate that during the 60s people didn't understand issues of mental health like they do today. Everyone tried to deal with things as best they could and of course, mistakes were sometimes made

And yes, i think just like Call Her Miss Ross, Dreamgirls is a product of it's time. perhaps if the book was written later, it might have been less sensational

[TheMotownManiac]

I don’t believe a lot of what Mary says. He books are full of lies and incorrect innuendo. I don’t believe she was told to sensationalize it - it was written from wrath and financial need, not coercion. There’s no way any publisher would refuse a Supreme autobiography because it didn’t have enough dirt. Remember this is the same woman who stood outside of Spago in 1989 crying into a TV camera asking “what did I ever do to her?” She’s shameless in this respect. Outing the rape was so wrong - Flo’s kids were teenagers then - they didn’t need any of their moms’s Privacy spread around like that. They could get made fun of at school for having a drunk mom. Kids can be vicious.

Mary just makes up stuff as she chooses. She’s now claiming to have coined “no-hit Supremes” how stupid is that? After years of saying how hurtful it was to be called that, now she’s claiming she made it up! And like many of her lies, it doesn’t make sense. Nobody who is in a group that’s trying to make it while many of those around her are doing better are going to call attention to the fact by coining a phrase like that. It’s absurd. Not that it’s a big deal, but it shows you two things about her character:
1) She’ll say ANYTHING.
2) She’s so into her storytelling and need for approval that she’ll claim ownership of No-hit Supremes when it makes her look idiotic for coining it - let alone bragging about it.

[RanRan79]

I don't know if it was bipolar. Nothing has been written about Florence having mood swings until about 1966 when everything began to spiral out of control. I'm thinking that her mood swings had something to do with the diet pills she often took during this time. What does seem apparent is that Florence suffered from depression off and on which seems to have kicked in after her rape. When her life got hectic- and the Supremes in 1966 was on an almost entirely different type of schedule than that of the Supremes of 1965- and the drama with Gordy and Ross started up, she started self medicating. Diet pills which cause heavy mood swings, depression kicking in because of the deterioration of her relationships with Gordy and Ross, and then alcohol mixed in just exacerbated all of the problems.

It's hard to diagnose someone years after they're deceased, but Flo's life reads to me like a woman depressed who found herself addicted to alcohol. What bothers me is the comments that are sometimes made that paints this picture of Flo as someone who didn't want to be a singer or didn't want to be a star or a woman who didn't have the drive to put in the work, and the events of 1966-67 are usually what is pointed to in order to back up the claim. But if you know anything about depression, depression often won't allow a person to enjoy what they once enjoyed or be as motivated as they once were. Not because it's not in them, but because the mental condition takes over. Some folks depression is so crippling that they find it hard to get out of bed. Every account of Florence prior to 1966 is a woman who managed to make it to every show, every recording session, every photo session, every interview, same as Diana and Mary, until about 1966, which is when her depression symptoms really seem to ramp up. Then on top of it she becomes an alcoholic. It's difficult to be yourself when you have a mental issue and a substance abuse issue beating on your back. Had Flo gotten psychiatric help as a Supreme or consistently after she left the group, I think her story, both personal and music career, would've been extremely different.

[floyjoy678]

I don't think Flo didn't have the drive. She was very charismatic and charming during those early years especially on those first Hullabaloo and Shindig appearances. I'd say sometime after the Copa is when she starts to look bored and disinterested in the video clips. I believe Flo saw where the group was headed and just decided the hard work wasn't worth it if it wasn't going to benefit the whole group.

[midnightman]

Yeah Flo was cool the first two years. By mid 66 though she got tired of it

[PeaceNHarmony]

Hopefully she would have overcome her demons and be living a happy and productive life. But then the Diana-Deniers would have one less illusion in their arsenal.

[ballardfan67]

i think Flo would have been snubbed for 25. there was just too much, IMO, still bitter between her and Berry. But then eventually i think there would have been some sort of reconciliation with Berry. like how Martha and others did. and then things would have been better for subsequent Motown specials.

I don’t know about snubbed. At the time of her death, Berry was the one who gave her a final settlement offer to buy her home. Not a slip and fall

[marv2]

I don’t know about snubbed. At the time of her death, Berry was the one who gave her a final settlement offer to buy her home. Not a slip and fall

No the settlement did not come from Berry Gordy. It has been said that it came from a slip and fall lawsuit Flo had. The other story I heard is that it was from a suit against her former attorney Braun. I believe the slip and fall lawsuit is where the money came from. Berry Gordy paid for Florence's funeral.

[midnightman]

I don’t know about snubbed. At the time of her death, Berry was the one who gave her a final settlement offer to buy her home. Not a slip and fall

I think she had a settlement with the lawyer who ran off with her money from her Motown exit.

[detmotownguy]

No the settlement did not come from Berry Gordy. It has been said that it came from a slip and fall lawsuit Flo had. The other story I heard is that it was from a suit against her former attorney Braun. I believe the slip and fall lawsuit is where the money came from. Berry Gordy paid for Florence's funeral.
Well Marv I think the important variable is that she didn’t die in poverty as depicted in many bios of her life. Pvt me for the details if you like. My co worker back in Detroit was friends with Flo until the end. She was a singer in a NYC band that you will be completely familiar with!! Let’s catch up soon.

[ballardfan67]

Right I know about the lawsuit, however I have read as well that there was a last settlement given to her by Motown,plus Tommy was given a job by Berry after Flos death. definately not disputing what you are saying

[gman]

back to M25....in retrospect, it would have been smarter to have a Supremes reunion with Jean....Up The Ladder/ Stoned Love....Diana could have had her star entrance as she did with Ain't No Mountain and then reunited briefly with Mary and Cindy for Someday We'll Be Together...cant blame MW for being upset...it was supposed to be the grand highlight, and DR decided to minimalize it...it seemed to say "I'm here, that's all that matters"...Look carefully at the footage...DR got lost, Mary picked up the lead, and turned to Diana palm out to hand it back to her. Suzanne should have pulled Diana aside, and enlightened her about the situation, and the pending bad public and professional reputation the change she initiated would cause a bit

[TNSUN]

A simple act. Berry Gordy when he sold Motown to MCA could have given Florence Ballard's children a small sum.

[PeaceNHarmony]

Sometimes when reading posts here I get the feeling I'm re-experiencing deja vu all over again.

[Circa 1824]

Yes, Ross totally destroyed M25 for ALL of us Supremes fans. And she never apologized. Ross was completely out of touch and out of control.

[detmotownguy]

Yes, Ross totally destroyed M25 for ALL of us Supremes fans. And she never apologized. Ross was completely out of touch and out of control.

She def didn't want to be there or so they say. Reportedly was sick, no rehearsal, and the segment was reduced to one song. She may have only wanted to perform if it was a solo spot and no Sups.

[marv2]

She def didn't want to be there or so they say. Reportedly was sick, no rehearsal, and the segment was reduced to one song. She may have only wanted to perform if it was a solo spot and no Sups.

That was the point where I was through with Diana Ross forever! It showed the general public who she really was.

[jobucats]

What's this thread about again? hmmmm

[MotownGold]

It is another failed attempt to rewrite history.

We all get it...some of you hate Diana Ross, Berry Gordy and Suzanne DePasse. Yet you continue to talk about them ad nauseam.

If not for Diana Ross this forum would be relegated to updates on Mary Wilson performing at the function room at the Olive Garden.

Diana Ross is an international icon and there is nothing that 5 people with no life, will do to change that.

In 20 years or less most of us will no longer be here, but please waste the time you have left wrapped in negativity.

[PeaceNHarmony]

It is another failed attempt to rewrite history.

We all get it...some of you hate Diana Ross, Berry Gordy and Suzanne DePasse. Yet you continue to talk about them ad nauseam.

If not for Diana Ross this forum would be relegated to updates on Mary Wilson performing at the function room at the Olive Garden.

Diana Ross is an international icon and there is nothing that 5 people with no life, will do to change that.

In 20 years or less most of us will no longer be here, but please waste the time you have left wrapped in negativity.Harsh! Scandalous! And ... absolutely correct. If we had been lucky enough to have Florence still among us, only one thing is absolutely true: Mary Wilson would have had no market for her book and most likely no post-Supremes career whatsoever. A maybe? A Supremes reunion at some point in time.

[MotownGold]

I love all The Supremes, but being on this forum makes it difficult to care about Mary Wilson in any kind of way. Diana does not need now or then to reunite with any of the Supremes...she already has backup singers in her band!

[gman]

OK...I'll go back on track with the topic.
I think if Florence lived she would have [[provided she sobered up and had proper guidance and management) gradually etched out an entertainment career similar to Mary's..incorporating the Supremes legacy [[that she was also entitled to) into a livelihood that included acting, radio/ talk show hosting and writing. All things considered, I think TIME would have provided Florence with more insight than her contemporaries, struggling and being away from the business would have given her experiences that neither Mary or Diana had, since they remained in the business uninterrupted earning off performing....Cindy and Jean also have had that experience.

It's also very likely that a surviving Florence may have Post Traumatic Embitterment Stress Syndrome...although some of us take responsibility for our decisions and actions, we have a frequent amount of distaste, distrust and dislike for the people, places and things that we believe were contributing factors.

FYI..I admire DR very much, I am a fan of most of her post DRATS output..and I am a big MW /70's Supremes fan. Jean Terrell, Scherrie Payne....since Florence was already gone '68 when I became a fan, I am very partial and loving towards Cindy Birdsong. The group prior to her joining and during both her absences falls a bit out of favor for me.

[grangertim]

Also i don't know if Flo's professional career would have ever really been all that stupendous. Most accounts do have her starting to get her life together just prior to her death. So perhaps she would have made some headway with things. But she had a LOT of demons and i don't know that she had the resources or the perspective to deal with them properly. There might have been a little bit of resurgence but her timing was also poor, unfortunately. by 76 and 77, disco was the rage and Flo's voice really wouldn't have been a good fit for that IMO. It's quite possible that she would have remained in detroit, perhaps continuing on welfare or at the very least, living modestly.

^^ This.

Like most members of this forum, I have read all the Motown books. My view of Flo is that she primarily saw the Supremes as a ticket out of poverty. I don’t think she ever harboured burning ambitions to be the next Judy Garland/Lena Horne/Dinah Washington etc - either artistically or professionally. Unlike Diana, who after the Supremes hit, realised hard work was the key to greater and sustained success, Flo never made this connection and was happy to rest on the laurels of the Supremes success. Flo sabotaged her career in 1967 by leaving Motown signing that ridiculous release contract. Berry never wanted her out of Motown - leaving was her choice, she did it because she was angry and bitter. Justifiably, maybe, but a golden rule is never let emotion get in the way of business, and she broke this rule. Worse, she signed that release without getting proper legal advice. Then she signed with ABC and had her husband manage her. If she’d been a more dedicated artist, with a clear vision of what she wanted to achieve artistically, that wouldn’t have happed. She was, in many ways, trapped by her upbringing, which had fewer advantages and less structure compared to Diana’s and Mary’s. When the Supremes started earning good money, she squandered hers on her large family, with no thought for the future, unlike Diana and Mary who did at least plan for the future.

I sound like I am blaming her, and I suppose I am. She didn’t make the most of the opportunities Motown and the Supremes presented to her. She must have realised during 1966 that Diana had something she and Mary didn’t. She never stopped to think why, or what that might have been. Aside from their personal relationship, why was Berry singling Diana out? It was because Diana worked hard - very hard - to improve her craft and maintain success, and to take the Supremes to the next level. But Flo never saw this, she only saw Diana being pushed out in front and her own role being diminished, and instead just lashed out, getting depressed and starting to drink, and we all know where that ended. A smarter person would have asked why, and how do I get some of that, too.

When I think about Flo, I think about squandered opportunities. But: in the end, Flo just didn’t have the ambition and dedication that Diana did. Note: ambition and dedication do not equate to talent. One can be talented but unambitious. Similarly, one can be ambitious, but lack talent.

[CoolKatz]

I will add my two cents trying to avoid rehashing things that will never change.

I will say that they were all ambitious but Diana was willing to be reshaped into what ever she needed to be in order to achieve attention and fame and that's cool. That kind of thing works for some people but not most. Florence just wanted to sing [[like most of young adults at Motown).

The business end of performing can be quite ugly and there are some willing to be reshaped where as many others are not.

They all used this as a means of leaving the projects and helping their families but at that time none of them realized at what cost

[Motown Eddie]

back to M25....in retrospect, it would have been smarter to have a Supremes reunion with Jean....Up The Ladder/ Stoned Love....Diana could have had her star entrance as she did with Ain't No Mountain and then reunited briefly with Mary and Cindy for Someday We'll Be Together...cant blame MW for being upset...it was supposed to be the grand highlight, and DR decided to minimalize it...it seemed to say "I'm here, that's all that matters"...Look carefully at the footage...DR got lost, Mary picked up the lead, and turned to Diana palm out to hand it back to her. Suzanne should have pulled Diana aside, and enlightened her about the situation, and the pending bad public and professional reputation the change she initiated would cause a bit

In theory, it would've been a great idea to have Jean, Mary & Cindy perform as The Supremes [[with Diana making her "star turn" doing "ANMHE") on Motown 25. Unfortunately, Suzanne DePasse [[possibly coerced by NBC) wanted a Diana, Mary & Cindy "reunion" to climax the show.

[Motown Eddie]

I feel that if Florence Ballard was still alive, she'd be doing the same thing that Mary Wilson is doing [[some performing here & there and recognition as a founding member of The Supremes). I even see her performing "Silent Night" & "Oh Little Town Of Bethlehem" during the holidays.

[IMissFlo93]

I feel that if Florence Ballard was still alive, she'd be doing the same thing that Mary Wilson is doing [[some performing here & there and recognition as a founding member of The Supremes). I even see her performing "Silent Night" & "Oh Little Town Of Bethlehem" during the holidays.

Agreed. I would've loved to see her in concert if she was still alive

[gman]

Diana is a rarity in that she is able to maintain superstar status for what seems like eternity....despite recording choice setbacks, spotty sales and some unappealing public moments....she's had the momentum and remained a household name. She's never been out of the public eye long enough to generate "Gee, whatever happened to..."

The chances of lightning striking twice, and having a full fledged career blast following a dormant period that either rivals or surpasses the first wave of fame is indeed a rarity. Very few are that fortunate...among them Cher, Tina Turner, Heart, Patti Labelle....Seems most once big time, later labeled "historical" performers struggle to stay in the business and continue earning enough to maintain solely from performing.
Royalty payments don't seem to be doing much to pay anybody's bills...the industry and the way people listen to and buy music has changed a lot

[PeaceNHarmony]

I think Florence would have returned to gospel music, her first love and greatest talent.

[RanRan79]

back to M25....in retrospect, it would have been smarter to have a Supremes reunion with Jean....Up The Ladder/ Stoned Love....Diana could have had her star entrance as she did with Ain't No Mountain and then reunited briefly with Mary and Cindy for Someday We'll Be Together...cant blame MW for being upset...it was supposed to be the grand highlight, and DR decided to minimalize it...it seemed to say "I'm here, that's all that matters"...Look carefully at the footage...DR got lost, Mary picked up the lead, and turned to Diana palm out to hand it back to her. Suzanne should have pulled Diana aside, and enlightened her about the situation, and the pending bad public and professional reputation the change she initiated would cause a bit

I don't think Jean would've done it, honestly. But the optics would've been bad if Ross and Wilson [[and Birdsong for that matter) were all at a Motown tribute show and didn't sing together just the three of them. There should have been a medley, but even if they only sang just the one song together, I think the setup was perfect. Diana sing her solo mega Motown hit and then joined onstage with Mary and Cindy for "Someday". If Diana really pushed Mary, then the problem was all Diana and the push. Without it, the Supremes reunion could have been reasonably perfect.

But lets be for real: outside of the most diehard of Supremes fans, no one there that night or tuning in during the broadcast would've been excited about Jean Terrell. To the general public the Supremes were Diana Ross, Mary Wilson, Flo Ballard and probably Cindy Birdsong. The reunion of Diana with the Supremes was one of the selling points for the show.

[RanRan79]

I will add my two cents trying to avoid rehashing things that will never change.

I will say that they were all ambitious but Diana was willing to be reshaped into what ever she needed to be in order to achieve attention and fame and that's cool. That kind of thing works for some people but not most. Florence just wanted to sing [[like most of young adults at Motown).

The business end of performing can be quite ugly and there are some willing to be reshaped where as many others are not.

They all used this as a means of leaving the projects and helping their families but at that time none of them realized at what cost

I agree 1000 percent!!

[RanRan79]

Diana is a rarity in that she is able to maintain superstar status for what seems like eternity....despite recording choice setbacks, spotty sales and some unappealing public moments....she's had the momentum and remained a household name. She's never been out of the public eye long enough to generate "Gee, whatever happened to..."

The chances of lightning striking twice, and having a full fledged career blast following a dormant period that either rivals or surpasses the first wave of fame is indeed a rarity. Very few are that fortunate...among them Cher, Tina Turner, Heart, Patti Labelle....Seems most once big time, later labeled "historical" performers struggle to stay in the business and continue earning enough to maintain solely from performing.
Royalty payments don't seem to be doing much to pay anybody's bills...the industry and the way people listen to and buy music has changed a lot

Diana eased into her flat period. RCA was a transition from relevant to irrelevant because of music choice. Had someone other than Diana been in charge of her career while at RCA there's no doubt in my mind that Diana's success would've extended well into the 90s. Poor musical output cannot be underestimated as it relates to singers remaining at or near the top. It's hard to rebound from album after album and single after single that the public shuns because the music sucks.

Also, both Tina and Patti had the opportunity to undergo a reinvention, probably due to the fact that their identities were tied to others for a very long time. Add to that both "lucked" up on hugely popular records that spiraled them back into success. I imagine the fact that Cher was also a successful movie actress allowed her a better chance at rebounding musically than most others. Another knock against Diana is that after The Wiz she wouldn't do another movie for 15 years and it was made for TV. I'm not even sure her Josephine Baker project would've done much more for her in the late 80s unless it was going to be on the big screen. She did a disservice to herself not continuing the movie career.

[midnightman]

Diana eased into her flat period. RCA was a transition from relevant to irrelevant because of music choice. Had someone other than Diana been in charge of her career while at RCA there's no doubt in my mind that Diana's success would've extended well into the 90s. Poor musical output cannot be underestimated as it relates to singers remaining at or near the top. It's hard to rebound from album after album and single after single that the public shuns because the music sucks.

Also, both Tina and Patti had the opportunity to undergo a reinvention, probably due to the fact that their identities were tied to others for a very long time. Add to that both "lucked" up on hugely popular records that spiraled them back into success. I imagine the fact that Cher was also a successful movie actress allowed her a better chance at rebounding musically than most others. Another knock against Diana is that after The Wiz she wouldn't do another movie for 15 years and it was made for TV. I'm not even sure her Josephine Baker project would've done much more for her in the late 80s unless it was going to be on the big screen. She did a disservice to herself not continuing the movie career.

Diana should've picked a different company than RCA. She obviously couldn't go to Arista since it was packed with divas galore [[DIONNE, ARETHA, WHITNEY) but I think she could've had a better career at, say, Columbia but I guess because RCA offered the most money, she took it. Shows how much Motown artists were treated after they left Motown!

[midnightman]

Diana is a rarity in that she is able to maintain superstar status for what seems like eternity....despite recording choice setbacks, spotty sales and some unappealing public moments....she's had the momentum and remained a household name. She's never been out of the public eye long enough to generate "Gee, whatever happened to..."

The chances of lightning striking twice, and having a full fledged career blast following a dormant period that either rivals or surpasses the first wave of fame is indeed a rarity. Very few are that fortunate...among them Cher, Tina Turner, Heart, Patti Labelle....Seems most once big time, later labeled "historical" performers struggle to stay in the business and continue earning enough to maintain solely from performing.
Royalty payments don't seem to be doing much to pay anybody's bills...the industry and the way people listen to and buy music has changed a lot

Cher benefited from having a successful movie career and not to mention she reinvented herself into a rock diva much like Tina Turner had done at the same time frame. Patti benefited from having a smart management company led by her husband at the time to get her bookings in film, Broadway and on TV specials and that led to her finally having a successful solo recording career from 1983 until around 1998.

Diana definitely could've been there with them but what was different with her besides from RCA not knowing what to do with its artists, especially African American artists like Diana who didn't fit solely into a pop or R&B format [[which is why Tina Turner suffered for years until Private Dancer) was that she was a very attentive mother and that led to her cutting a lot of time so she could be a mother. She risked her career to be a mother rather than do the opposite in her early 20s.

[midnightman]

I feel that if Florence Ballard was still alive, she'd be doing the same thing that Mary Wilson is doing [[some performing here & there and recognition as a founding member of The Supremes). I even see her performing "Silent Night" & "Oh Little Town Of Bethlehem" during the holidays.

I see Florence having the same type of career Bettye LaVette has now. She can use her voice to sing the rock and blues classics and have a successful Grammy-nominated career. I mean her comeback performance in 75 had her fronting a rock group singing "I Am Woman". It could've easily happened!

[RanRan79]

Diana should've picked a different company than RCA. She obviously couldn't go to Arista since it was packed with divas galore [[DIONNE, ARETHA, WHITNEY) but I think she could've had a better career at, say, Columbia but I guess because RCA offered the most money, she took it. Shows how much Motown artists were treated after they left Motown!

Arista probably would've been the best fit, but Dionne and Aretha were already there and that's probably half the company budget in just those two artists. [[Whitney was years away.) I'd be surprised if they could afford to pay Diana what she was worth at that point. Phyllis Hyman has complained about being lost in the shuffle when she got there. Diana Ross in 1981 wasn't going to be lost in anybody's shuffle at any record label in the country. She would've gotten a top priority spot, which may have ruffled the feathers of the other resident divas. But no doubt, Diana at Arista would've been quite different to Diana at RCA. I think Clive Davis might have had a way with singers at that time that would've allowed him to oversee a Diana Ross project, but allow Diana room so as not to feel stifled or bullied. She definitely wasn't going to go into another situation where some man was ruling over her with an iron fist. But she needed someone's guidance. Yes, that's the word I'm looking for: Clive would've been in a position to guide, rather than boss. After all, Aretha could be equally as difficult in maintaining control, and Arista gave her new life.

But what's done is done. We'll always have "Pieces Of Ice".:p

[RanRan79]

I see Florence having the same type of career Bettye LaVette has now. She can use her voice to sing the rock and blues classics and have a successful Grammy-nominated career. I mean her comeback performance in 75 had her fronting a rock group singing "I Am Woman". It could've easily happened!

And she received a standing ovation as a result. If we imagine Flo's career if it re-started in 1977, I think Flo would've probably tried her hand at disco first. Maybe she'd do some ballads a'la Angela Bofill. In the early 80s maybe she'd cut some stuff similar to Gladys and the Pips, like "Landlord" or Dee Dee Sharp's "Dee Dee" album. Whether or not she would've had any hits would've depended on song selection, as I figure it does with anyone else.

My dream project would've been if Flo, Diana and Mary regrouped after Motown 25 and cut a Pointer Sisters "Breaking Out" type of album. That would've blown the public's mind.

[sup_fan]

just to toy with some other ideas, what about Flo on the screen? since this is a fantasy post...

perhaps Flo could have been the wise-cracking sister to Willona on Good Times. or a role on the Jeffersons.

the rumors have always floated around that she could have done the black version of Hello Dolly.

[RanRan79]

By all accounts Flo was a natural comedienne, so having her do television would've probably been a natural step for anyone guiding her career in the mid to late 70s. Movies also. Maybe even some commercial jingles or tv theme song. Florence would've needed someone knowledgeable about the industry and with tons of connections. One can have all the talent in the world, but without a good inter-industry support system, there's little chance for success, unfortunately.

[NativeNuYorker]

Wasn't Florence planning to write her own bio at the time of her death?
I thought her husband, Chapman, sold her memoirs to Gordy.

[TNSUN]

Flo would have been great starring in The Fats Waller Musical: "Ain't Misbehavin": in the Broadway Production and/or The National Tour
Production!

[RanRan79]

I thought her husband, Chapman, sold her memoirs to Gordy.

That came from TallTales Turner's book. I think anything in his book can pretty much be chucked into the fiction column.

[sup_fan]

That came from TallTales Turner's book. I think anything in his book can pretty much be chucked into the fiction column.

aside from the fictional comedy elements of Tony's books, there are some great, shade-y, catty comments and one liners

Don't you walk out on me, i'll cut you too short to shit

Tambourine thumping project whore

if you reach that hand out to me, you'll pull back a bloody stump

horse-throated tramp



these are all phrases that are wonderful to drop into random conversations with people lolol.

[reese]

aside from the fictional comedy elements of Tony's books, there are some great, shade-y, catty comments and one liners

Don't you walk out on me, i'll cut you too short to shit

Tambourine thumping project whore

if you reach that hand out to me, you'll pull back a bloody stump

horse-throated tramp



these are all phrases that are wonderful to drop into random conversations with people lolol.

Some of these one-liners are classic. I guess something good needed to come from his books. When I bought them, I was still young and green enough to think that everything I read was true. But some of it, whew!

[sup_fan]

Some of these one-liners are classic. I guess something good needed to come from his books. When I bought them, I was still young and green enough to think that everything I read was true. But some of it, whew!

yeah at the time, it was sort of "well if it's in a book there must be some level of truth." I happened to find and buy the Temps book he did relatively quickly. My understanding is that quite a few people brought lawsuits [[or threatened to) and so it went off market relatively quickly.

then as the internet started up and fan chat rooms began, people started poking holes in it.

[reese]

yeah at the time, it was sort of "well if it's in a book there must be some level of truth." I happened to find and buy the Temps book he did relatively quickly. My understanding is that quite a few people brought lawsuits [[or threatened to) and so it went off market relatively quickly.

then as the internet started up and fan chat rooms began, people started poking holes in it.

I remember Martha Reeves saying something like "He [[Tony Turner) had nightmares and woke up and wrote them down."

His first book was sort of a more wicked, campy version of DREAMGIRL. His Tempts book was a tad darker. But when it came to some of the things he was proposing for his third book, I think people said enough is enough and it was never published.

He seemed to keep a low profile until RTL, when he released another paperback version of his Supremes book, which was supposedly updated to include new info regarding the tour. The "update" amounted to basically a couple of pages.

[sup_fan]

oh i didn't know of a third book. maybe that was the one that was pulled, not the Temps one

yeah the first one was just more of a tabloid version of Dreamgirl. but in Temps, he's digging much deeper into drugs, trash talking. alludes to some pretty wild sexual rumors about the people, hinting at this or that. and he didn't limit it to motown people - the chapter about Aretha was pretty entertaining. showing up naked under a glamorous fur coat to Dennis Edward's hotel room! ;o lolol

and to cap it all off with, the best rumor is that Tony slithered off to Europe and is the gay lover of some spanish count lololol. I guess that makes her Countess Tonita Turner now ;)

[reese]

oh i didn't know of a third book. maybe that was the one that was pulled, not the Temps one

yeah the first one was just more of a tabloid version of Dreamgirl. but in Temps, he's digging much deeper into drugs, trash talking. alludes to some pretty wild sexual rumors about the people, hinting at this or that. and he didn't limit it to motown people - the chapter about Aretha was pretty entertaining. showing up naked under a glamorous fur coat to Dennis Edward's hotel room! ;o lolol

and to cap it all off with, the best rumor is that Tony slithered off to Europe and is the gay lover of some spanish count lololol. I guess that makes her Countess Tonita Turner now ;)

Yes, the proposed third book had some rather nasty allegations. I think Berry Gordy might have sued. But it was never published.

[RanRan79]

aside from the fictional comedy elements of Tony's books, there are some great, shade-y, catty comments and one liners

Don't you walk out on me, i'll cut you too short to shit

Tambourine thumping project whore

if you reach that hand out to me, you'll pull back a bloody stump

horse-throated tramp



these are all phrases that are wonderful to drop into random conversations with people lolol.

Can't argue with you there!:D

[RanRan79]

Some of these one-liners are classic. I guess something good needed to come from his books. When I bought them, I was still young and green enough to think that everything I read was true. But some of it, whew!

Same here. I think I first read it when I was 14 and I hadn't yet learned that fiction can be marketed as nonfiction in certain situations. The book did not endear Diana to me at all. So glad that didn't last long.

[RanRan79]

yeah at the time, it was sort of "well if it's in a book there must be some level of truth." I happened to find and buy the Temps book he did relatively quickly. My understanding is that quite a few people brought lawsuits [[or threatened to) and so it went off market relatively quickly.

then as the internet started up and fan chat rooms began, people started poking holes in it.

I read it. I can't recall if I have a copy or not. It's been eons since I read it. I don't remember much.

[RanRan79]

I remember Martha Reeves saying something like "He [[Tony Turner) had nightmares and woke up and wrote them down."

His first book was sort of a more wicked, campy version of DREAMGIRL. His Tempts book was a tad darker. But when it came to some of the things he was proposing for his third book, I think people said enough is enough and it was never published.

He seemed to keep a low profile until RTL, when he released another paperback version of his Supremes book, which was supposedly updated to include new info regarding the tour. The "update" amounted to basically a couple of pages.

That's a great Martha quote!

Glittered was basically regurgitated Dreamgirl stories that Tony was able to conjure up details for. Where Mary may have written something vague like "Flo, Diana and I were having lunch one afternoon when Flo farted and I fell out laughing. Diana ran off to tell Berry. It was as if Diana no longer had a sense of humor." Tall Tales would then write "Flo, Diana and Mary were having lunch one afternoon in Mary's suite. I came to the hotel as soon as school let out, and of course, even though I was just a kid, security let me go up to Mary's suite to hang out. When I got there Flo was glad to see me, as usual. Mary was polite, and Diana just gave me her bitchy look that said 'If I could put you in an oven and bake you, I would'. In return I gave her a look I'd seen Flo give and proceeded to ignore her. Flo, who was lactose intolerant and enjoying a dish smothered in cheese, suddenly broke wind. Mary and I fell out laughing, while Diana rolled her eyes and said 'Oh how common.' And when Flo joined in our laughter, Diana had enough. She left the suite and went into her own suite to call Berry. I followed behind her, but she didn't know it. She told Berry that Flo was cutting the cheese just to piss Diana off and she was tired of it. I ran back to Flo and told her what Diana said to Berry, and Flo told me 'That bitch is just mad that my farts sound better than she does.':p

I didn't know he did an update regarding RTL. What in the world could he possibly know about it that the rest of the world didn't? I can't imagine that any Supreme had anything to do with him at that point in time.

[RanRan79]

oh i didn't know of a third book. maybe that was the one that was pulled, not the Temps one

yeah the first one was just more of a tabloid version of Dreamgirl. but in Temps, he's digging much deeper into drugs, trash talking. alludes to some pretty wild sexual rumors about the people, hinting at this or that. and he didn't limit it to motown people - the chapter about Aretha was pretty entertaining. showing up naked under a glamorous fur coat to Dennis Edward's hotel room! ;o lolol

and to cap it all off with, the best rumor is that Tony slithered off to Europe and is the gay lover of some spanish count lololol. I guess that makes her Countess Tonita Turner now ;)

Oh please. The closest that queen has come to a count or countess is counting out change at his job and handing customers a receipt.

[RanRan79]

Yes, the proposed third book had some rather nasty allegations. I think Berry Gordy might have sued. But it was never published.

Yeah, he claimed Gordy was having sex with him as a teenager. Gordy threatened to sue and the book never came out. The dude is sick.

[reese]

I didn't know he did an update regarding RTL. What in the world could he possibly know about it that the rest of the world didn't? I can't imagine that any Supreme had anything to do with him at that point in time.

I think he may still have had some contact with Scherrie and maybe Cindy at that point. Scherrie did write an endorsement for the book when it was first published. But the info was rather skimpy along the lines of "Cindy was drinking Slim Fast by the gallon trying to get ready" and stuff like that.

[sansradio]

Yes, the proposed third book had some rather nasty allegations. I think Berry Gordy might have sued. But it was never published.

IIRC, the working title was to be Supreme Temptation. Pretty clever, considering the source.

[PeaceNHarmony]

just to toy with some other ideas, what about Flo on the screen? since this is a fantasy post...

perhaps Flo could have been the wise-cracking sister to Willona on Good Times. or a role on the Jeffersons.

the rumors have always floated around that she could have done the black version of Hello Dolly.I have never once heard a peep about Florence in Hello, Dolly in either Broadway or Motown discussions going back lo these 50+ years. Florence had neither the acting, singing, or stamina conditioning [[not to mention audience-drawing potential) to have made her a remotely plausible follow up to Pearl Bailey. Most likely this is decades-afterwards specious gossip and as a tactic is quite similar to djt's '... I'm told many people are saying ...' gaslighting strategy.

[reese]

I have never once heard a peep about Florence in Hello, Dolly in either Broadway or Motown discussions going back lo these 50+ years. Florence had neither the acting, singing, or stamina conditioning [[not to mention audience-drawing potential) to have made her a remotely plausible follow up to Pearl Bailey. Most likely this is decades-afterwards specious gossip and as a tactic is quite similar to djt's '... I'm told many people are saying ...' gaslighting strategy.

The only place I heard it was [[again) in Tony Turner's book, and we know how reliable that is. He places the timeline around the time that she left the group.

That said, I would think that if top Broadway producer like David Merrick really wanted Flo he could have made contact. It seems rather unlikely that Merrick would entrust one of his top properties to an ex-Supreme with no previous theater experience, and certainly not in the title role. Dolly Levi was supposed to be a widow and considerably older than Flo was at the time. This was one of the same criticisms aimed at Streisand when she did the film.

If the story has any truth, perhaps Flo was thought of for one of the younger characters in the black Broadway revival. But again I have heard nothing at all of any of this except from Turner.

[Roberta75]

Yeah, he claimed Gordy was having sex with him as a teenager. Gordy threatened to sue and the book never came out. The dude is sick.

Missy Turner wrote real good fiction. I always found it real odd that he had all this daily close contact with Flo Ballard but didnt have one photo with her that he could include in his book. LOLOLOLOLOLOL

Happy New Year dear RanRan79

[PeaceNHarmony]

The only place I heard it was [[again) in Tony Turner's book, and we know how reliable that is. He places the timeline around the time that she left the group.

That said, I would think that if top Broadway producer like David Merrick really wanted Flo he could have made contact. It seems rather unlikely that Merrick would entrust one of his top properties to an ex-Supreme with no previous theater experience, and certainly not in the title role. Dolly Levi was supposed to be a widow and considerably older than Flo was at the time. This was one of the same criticisms aimed at Streisand when she did the film.

If the story has any truth, perhaps Flo was thought of for one of the younger characters in the black Broadway revival. But again I have heard nothing at all of any of this except from Turner.Interesting, Reese! But, in the end, another Tony T nightmare and utterly illogical. Singing-dancing actresses were just shy of performing infanticide to be the next Dolly. The long-established, accepted lore was that post-Pearl B the 'all-Black Dolly' concept had run its course and it was on to Phyllis Diller, etc. If Merrick had wanted a Black follow-up to Bailey he had at his command the likes of established theater draws such as Diahann Carroll, Leslie Uggams, Josephine Premice, Barbara McNair ... the concept that a major Broadway show in the late 60's would entrust a huge hit, big-budget extravaganza to a cast-off girl group singer who was completely unproven as an actress and known in the industry [[if at all) to be unreliable and pretty much unknown to the Broadway ticket buying audience is just absurd. The Flo-natics will go through their monthly SNAP allowance of Depends reading this, but it's the way it is!

[floyjoy678]

I always thought Flo would have done well starring in a sitcom.

[PeaceNHarmony]

I always thought Flo would have done well starring in a sitcom.Starring not so much but a cast member, def. She had the comic timing for sure.

[TheMotownManiac]

Flo had a great comic personality but was far from a comedienne- her vocal lyric interp was pedestrian at best. I’m her biggest fan and still lament her loss from the group, but, there’s no way on earth David merrick would put her amateur butt in his record breaking career defining production. Pearl Bailey, starred the mega-successful black version calling on her 30 years of comic story and song expertise to redefine a Dolly Levi. ‘Wait a minute honey,” great as it was, would never have gotten her foot in the door. Bailey played Dolly longer than anyone - from November 67 - Dec 69 - including Carol Channing and was awarded a special Tony Award. Flo was available all that time and after for stock, but I never heard one whisper about Flo doing it. With training, who knows? I’d have gone. I just wish that Tony Turner and mary wilson would not have treated Florence as some sort of commodity to make money off them by inventing all kinds of stories - If they really and truly did love and care about her, they wouldn’t have used her in this manner after her passing.

[RanRan79]

The only place I heard it was [[again) in Tony Turner's book, and we know how reliable that is. He places the timeline around the time that she left the group.

That said, I would think that if top Broadway producer like David Merrick really wanted Flo he could have made contact. It seems rather unlikely that Merrick would entrust one of his top properties to an ex-Supreme with no previous theater experience, and certainly not in the title role. Dolly Levi was supposed to be a widow and considerably older than Flo was at the time. This was one of the same criticisms aimed at Streisand when she did the film.

If the story has any truth, perhaps Flo was thought of for one of the younger characters in the black Broadway revival. But again I have heard nothing at all of any of this except from Turner.

Your mention of Hello Dolly and Tony Turner sounds familiar. And if that's where it came from, you can probably guess what I think of it. However, Mary makes mention in her first book that she heard some movie folks were interested in casting Flo in something but that Motown never followed up. She does not expand on this and we do know Mary was not above putting things into her book for dramatic purposes that may not have always had a basis in truth. With my limited knowledge and interest in Broadway, I suspect that Broadway producers looking to cast rock and roll singers in their productions would be an almost impossibility. The Supremes were the hottest American ticket in the world. What Broadway producer would be willing to shake up the stability of that world for someone who would, best case scenario, have to do double duty between Broadway and Supremes stuff, and worst case scenario, throw herself into the play only to jump right out when she discovers that what the Supremes do is where it's at for her, not Broadway.

Besides this Hello Dolly talk coming from Tall Tales, I give more weight to Mary's statement. It wouldn't have surprised me at all for Hollywood reps to have taken notice of any of the Supremes. It's interesting to read articles about them during the Flo years. Of the ones I've seen, most of them really do treat the group as a group, as opposed to a writer who writes only about the greatness of Diana Ross and then, almost as an after thought, writes: "And oh yeah, Flo Ballard and Mary Wilson sing with her too. They are lovely girls also. But back to Diana..." And that the Hollywood crowd were staples at Supremes shows, I'm sure there were probably quite a few inquiries regarding all three Supremes, although most, if not all, may have been rejectable suggestions considering the time period and what may or may not have been racially sensitive.

But of course, the bottom line is that limitedly talented drunk Florence, no one could've ever seen anything worth their time in her.*I say with such a severe eye roll, that it hurts*

[RanRan79]

Missy Turner wrote real good fiction. I always found it real odd that he had all this daily close contact with Flo Ballard but didnt have one photo with her that he could include in his book. LOLOLOLOLOLOL

Happy New Year dear RanRan79

That's what I say too. And once I grew up and my common sense started kicking in, I'm thinking what kind of weirdo would Flo have had to be for this grown woman to take this little boy into her confidences. This dude was writing about how Flo was calling him from around the world to complain about Supremes stuff, and how she would call him when she got to New York so they could hang. Really? Like this woman didn't have grown friends she could complain to or call and say she's in town, let's hang out? But folks lapped it up.

Happy New Year to you too Roberta!!

[floyjoy678]

Your mention of Hello Dolly and Tony Turner sounds familiar. And if that's where it came from, you can probably guess what I think of it. However, Mary makes mention in her first book that she heard some movie folks were interested in casting Flo in something but that Motown never followed up. She does not expand on this and we do know Mary was not above putting things into her book for dramatic purposes that may not have always had a basis in truth. With my limited knowledge and interest in Broadway, I suspect that Broadway producers looking to cast rock and roll singers in their productions would be an almost impossibility. The Supremes were the hottest American ticket in the world. What Broadway producer would be willing to shake up the stability of that world for someone who would, best case scenario, have to do double duty between Broadway and Supremes stuff, and worst case scenario, throw herself into the play only to jump right out when she discovers that what the Supremes do is where it's at for her, not Broadway.

Besides this Hello Dolly talk coming from Tall Tales, I give more weight to Mary's statement. It wouldn't have surprised me at all for Hollywood reps to have taken notice of any of the Supremes. It's interesting to read articles about them during the Flo years. Of the ones I've seen, most of them really do treat the group as a group, as opposed to a writer who writes only about the greatness of Diana Ross and then, almost as an after thought, writes: "And oh yeah, Flo Ballard and Mary Wilson sing with her too. They are lovely girls also. But back to Diana..." And that the Hollywood crowd were staples at Supremes shows, I'm sure there were probably quite a few inquiries regarding all three Supremes, although most, if not all, may have been rejectable suggestions considering the time period and what may or may not have been racially sensitive.

But of course, the bottom line is that limitedly talented drunk Florence, no one could've ever seen anything worth their time in her.*I say with such a severe eye roll, that it hurts*

Yeah I feel some people are trying to downplay Flo just a little bit too much. Berry makes it a point in his book that he saw something special in each of the Supremes.

[PeaceNHarmony]

Yeah I feel some people are trying to downplay Flo just a little bit too much. Berry makes it a point in his book that he saw something special in each of the Supremes.I don't think anyone here tries to downplay Florence and her accomplishments during her years with the Supremes, nor her inarguable contributions to American popular music and culture and the civil rights movement. But it's way more than 20 feet to jump from background singing to a lead role in an exhausting 8-show-a-week Broadway extravaganza with its attendant publicity demands and required acting skills. Got to be real! Cheers to you.

[reese]

Your mention of Hello Dolly and Tony Turner sounds familiar. And if that's where it came from, you can probably guess what I think of it. However, Mary makes mention in her first book that she heard some movie folks were interested in casting Flo in something but that Motown never followed up...



I remember reading that in Mary's book and it doesn't sound unbelievable. I think Peter Benjamin's book on Flo mentions a similar thing, but I believe he wrote that Berry told the interested producers to look at Diana instead.

[sup_fan]

I don't think anyone here tries to downplay Florence and her accomplishments during her years with the Supremes, nor her inarguable contributions to American popular music and culture and the civil rights movement. But it's way more than 20 feet to jump from background singing to a lead role in an exhausting 8-show-a-week Broadway extravaganza with its attendant publicity demands and required acting skills. Got to be real! Cheers to you.

oh completely agree with you. broadway is most definitely NOT for the weak or faint hearted. in reality, Flo probably would never have made it and probably would never have tried. My post was more about fantasy - assuming she DID have the training or work ethic.

the Good Times idea sort of popped into my head. kind of like a guest star spot or something like that. even that wasn't being done all that much until you got the likes of Love Boat and all. I do think had MSS been around they could have gotten booked onto that boat! hehehe that would have been fun! :)

[reese]

oh completely agree with you. broadway is most definitely NOT for the weak or faint hearted. in reality, Flo probably would never have made it and probably would never have tried. My post was more about fantasy - assuming she DID have the training or work ethic.

the Good Times idea sort of popped into my head. kind of like a guest star spot or something like that. even that wasn't being done all that much until you got the likes of Love Boat and all. I do think had MSS been around they could have gotten booked onto that boat! hehehe that would have been fun! :)

If they had been popular at the time, I could see MSS doing the episode that the Pointer Sisters did. They played ship maids who Isaac asked to sing backup for a big show. Only problem was when the show occured, Isaac got stage fright, couldn't sing, and June and the girls had to take over.

[sup_fan]

hehehe - i could envision the Supremes being booked as a headline act on the main stage on the Lido deck lolol

and then mayhem ensues hehehe

Scherrie gets lost while sightseeing in Acapulco and has locals helping her in a motor boat to get out to the ship.

mary would be a love interest for some guest star on board. perhaps Sidney Poitier lol

Susaye would be wrapped up in some wild antics with Isaac

[midnightman]

Tony Turner, the same dude who said Marvin Gaye was gay, that Eddie Kendricks and David Ruffin had a relationship, who said Flo hired him at age 12 [[I forget the job)...

He really expected us to believe the ish he was selling lol

[monicarivers]

The “legend” of Florence Ballard has completely overtaken the reality. Decent singer? Yes. Would have charted as a lead? Unlikely. By all realistic accounts, Saint Flo didn’t have the looks, voice, or work ethic to make a dent in a relatively new Civil Rights era world of popular music.

[RanRan79]

I remember reading that in Mary's book and it doesn't sound unbelievable. I think Peter Benjamin's book on Flo mentions a similar thing, but I believe he wrote that Berry told the interested producers to look at Diana instead.

I don't place a lot of faith in any of Peter's anecdotes either, unless he directly quotes Florence. He, unfortunately, decided to approach the Florence Ballard story without the objectivity that a really good biography of someone deserves.

[RanRan79]

Yeah I feel some people are trying to downplay Flo just a little bit too much. Berry makes it a point in his book that he saw something special in each of the Supremes.

It's unfortunate, but it's the way things are among fans of the Supremes, either as a group or it's individual members. There are obvious ones among us who attempt to downplay Diana's achievements- factual achievements- and her talent and, to some degree or another, her legendary status. And then to others, it's almost a slap in the face when they find that Diana is not the only Supreme some people care about. God forbid that someone has a favorite Supreme who isn't Diana. It sucks, but what can one do? I just continue to state my opinion about Florence, Diana or any other Supreme and let the folks who don't like it get annoyed that they can't stop me. Besides, it has to really suck to be a person who wants everyone's opinions to align with their own.

[RanRan79]

The “legend” of Florence Ballard has completely overtaken the reality. Decent singer? Yes. Would have charted as a lead? Unlikely. By all realistic accounts, Saint Flo didn’t have the looks, voice, or work ethic to make a dent in a relatively new Civil Rights era world of popular music.

Those are all opinions, boo. That is not reality. There's a difference. I have an opposite opinion from yours. Of course none of it makes any difference now, but it's interesting to ponder conjecture, isn't it?

[sup_fan]

my view on Flo is that she definitely had talent. definitely had charisma. however she was 1) a young adult when this whole adventure started and 2) had some significant personal/mental problems that were never really addressed

Both M and F were young girls when they started singing and teens when they started at motown. there's much discussion about Diana's ambition, drive, steely determination, etc. But we need to remember that she's the anomaly. most teens are not like that. so when you compare her performance, growth, etc to what M and F were doing, well of course there's going to be a significant difference.

So could Flo have been a lead singer with success? sure. i think she could have probably done fine enough. the group could have had a hit or two. Could she have gone into acting and comedy? maybe. if she worked at it and train, who's to say. Could the flo circa early 67 that we all think we know have done these things? hard to say since by that time she was crumbling.

[reese]

I don't place a lot of faith in any of Peter's anecdotes either, unless he directly quotes Florence. He, unfortunately, decided to approach the Florence Ballard story without the objectivity that a really good biography of someone deserves.

I have to look at the book again. But I believe it was a quote from Flo. She mentioned that two film producers caught the Supremes act in San Francisco and were interested in her. But Berry told them to look at Diana instead as she worked harder. She went on to say how mean she thought Berry was to even share the exchange with her as she wasn't even thinking about movies.

[sup_fan]

^ yeah there have been stories of how berry would drop lines like this to the girls.

my guess is it wasn't necessarily meant to simply be cruel. I think it was his [[odd) way of trying to motivate someone. sort of a "look at the opportunity that passed you by, so get off ur duff and get going so you can get the next one"

not necessarily the most effective method

[reese]

^ yeah there have been stories of how berry would drop lines like this to the girls.

my guess is it wasn't necessarily meant to simply be cruel. I think it was his [[odd) way of trying to motivate someone. sort of a "look at the opportunity that passed you by, so get off ur duff and get going so you can get the next one"

not necessarily the most effective method

In her book, Diana wrote that Berry compared others to her often. Not just within the group but amongst the other Motown acts as well. As a result,she felt many of them turned against her. Berry might very well have been trying to make some of the others work harder to realize their own potential but to those involved, more than likely it came off as him playing favorites.

[sup_fan]

exactly. and we've all heard of how harsh Berry was with the Supremes, in particular Diana, about mistakes and changes. he seems as if he's a very direct, blunt person. one that lives by the "it's not mean if it's true" mantra.

in a sort of defense, one could argue that they were 1) in totally uncharted territory and 2) moving at a relentless speed in order to make as much money as quickly as possible. they didn't really have any examples to go by and were just plowing ahead blindly. and clearly motown wasn't working under the idea of we're here to create art for the ages. they wanted to make money today. taking time to sooth feelings and hold everyone's hand could have potentially limited the money they could earn or if they'd be there tomorrow. biographers and authors have pointed out that in several instances motown was barely hanging on. i think one story goes that Louyce saved the company at one particularly vulnerable time but collecting from distributors or something like that. so the threat of collapse was always present

and Berry certainly didn't limit his barbs for Florence. writers and producers often talk about how berry would rip apart their songs and productions.

[reese]

exactly. and we've all heard of how harsh Berry was with the Supremes, in particular Diana, about mistakes and changes. he seems as if he's a very direct, blunt person. one that lives by the "it's not mean if it's true" mantra.

in a sort of defense, one could argue that they were 1) in totally uncharted territory and 2) moving at a relentless speed in order to make as much money as quickly as possible. they didn't really have any examples to go by and were just plowing ahead blindly. and clearly motown wasn't working under the idea of we're here to create art for the ages. they wanted to make money today. taking time to sooth feelings and hold everyone's hand could have potentially limited the money they could earn or if they'd be there tomorrow. biographers and authors have pointed out that in several instances motown was barely hanging on. i think one story goes that Louyce saved the company at one particularly vulnerable time but collecting from distributors or something like that. so the threat of collapse was always present

and Berry certainly didn't limit his barbs for Florence. writers and producers often talk about how berry would rip apart their songs and productions.

I agree with a lot of what you wrote here. That's why I don't think of any of us can compare what Flo, Diana, Mary, and Berry might have done back then to what we might have done in a normal situation.

Now some things were probably downright dirty and mean. But it seems like the attitude was "get it while we're hot" because who knows how long this will last. To that end, some problems probably weren't discussed thoroughly until they came to a head because they were traveling to the next concert, rehearsing for the next tv show, recording hundreds of unreleased songs, etc. It doesn't mean things shouldn't have been discussed but context is everything. And of course, hindsight is 20/20.

[PeaceNHarmony]

The “legend” of Florence Ballard has completely overtaken the reality. Decent singer? Yes. Would have charted as a lead? Unlikely. By all realistic accounts, Saint Flo didn’t have the looks, voice, or work ethic to make a dent in a relatively new Civil Rights era world of popular music.I agree all around. If we were lucky enough to have had Florence survive the discussions today would be very, very different.

[Boogiedown]

The “legend” of Florence Ballard has completely overtaken the reality. Decent singer? Yes. Would have charted as a lead? Unlikely. By all realistic accounts, Saint Flo didn’t have the looks, voice, or work ethic to make a dent in a relatively new Civil Rights era world of popular music.

I don't know what the "new civil rights era world of popular music" was ??

or why it would've excluded Florence Ballard.....

[monicarivers]

I don't know what the "new civil rights era world of popular music" was ??

or why it would've excluded Florence Ballard.....

I simply meant that Florence didn’t have the chops to bridge the racial gap in popular music of the 1960’s. We all know this and it’s been discussed ad nauseum. It’s a shame though - she’s got a great set of pipes upon revisit!

[Boogiedown]

I simply meant that Florence didn’t have the chops to bridge the racial gap in popular music of the 1960’s. We all know this and it’s been discussed ad nauseum. It’s a shame though - she’s got a great set of pipes upon revisit!

Sorry , I still don't follow. Florence was on eight [[ give or take a few, depending on who you ask :p) #1 POP songs , appeared repeatedly on several premiere variety shows , and marqued in Vegas at The Flamingo... all in the sixties.

[dannyboy1968]

I think she would've been successful had she had the right materials. From the recordings we've heard from her brief solo career, she certainly had a fantastic voice however, It sounded as though they were trying to give her a funkier Diana Ross/ Supremes or Aretha Franklin sound, but in all honesty Flo was not a soul singer. Although her voice had great power, she was not like an Aretha Franklin or any other r'n'b singer at the time.

I often wonder how she would've sounded if she had worked with those who produced Barbara Streisand. I would've loved the hear her cover "Don't Rain On My Parade" or "My Man". She did very well singing standards or ballads. She didn't need a funk backing band because her voice had it all.

[dannyboy1968]

She was not an activist performer. Assuming that you are referring to political music when you mentioned "new civil rights era world of popular music" , I don't believe that protest type songs were her bag. I don't believe that her intention was to bridge any racial gaps, [[not saying that she would believe that they weren't important, as they certainly were for the time. The supremes did explain this the importance in a few press conferences), she simply wanted to sing, not cause a political uproar.

[dannyboy1968]

I simply meant that Florence didn’t have the chops to bridge the racial gap in popular music of the 1960’s. We all know this and it’s been discussed ad nauseum. It’s a shame though - she’s got a great set of pipes upon revisit!

She was not an activist performer. Assuming that you are referring to political music when you mentioned "new civil rights era world of popular music" , I don't believe that protest type songs were her bag. I don't believe that her intention was to bridge any racial gaps, [[not saying that she would believe that they weren't important, as they certainly were for the time. The supremes did explain this the importance in a few press conferences), she simply wanted to sing, not cause a political uproar.

[TheMotownManiac]

just to toy with some other ideas, what about Flo on the screen? since this is a fantasy post...

perhaps Flo could have been the wise-cracking sister to Willona on Good Times. or a role on the Jeffersons.

the rumors have always floated around that she could have done the black version of Hello Dolly.

I don’t believe David Merrick ever ever ever considered asking Florence to play hello Dolly. He had an incredible run with pearl Bailey who was a gifted experienced legendary performer. Florence was as green as green could be Plus she was half the age of Dolly. I don’t believe there was ever any thought whatsoever, and she certainly was free to do it…… It makes a nice little tidbit for her legend however. And personally, I would’ve loved to see her do it because I love just watching flo.

[benross]

Cindy Birdsong had more acting experience -- as a nun on Tarzan -- than Florence Ballard had at this point, and I doubt that David Merrick would have asked Cindy to step into a major show with all of her experience relative to that of Florence. Broadway audiences expect a higher level of performance there than they might see in a well-meaning cast in a community theater production back in Outtatheway, Oklahoma.

[Circa 1824]

Flo had a very average singing voice. How far could one go with that in the 1970’s? Not too far.

[Spreadinglove21]

Florence had trouble learning some of the dance routines for the Supremes' nightclub act and TV show appearances. Being able to say a few funny lines in the nightclub act is not the same as having to play lead 8 shows a week on the Broadway stage.

[daviddh]

to answer someone question earlier why Cindy allowed Mary to speak for her during the RTL negotiations.
Cindy retired and did not have mangement so she allowed Marys team to negotiate for her,she regretted it. i think this an article in which she stated I can't believe Mary said no.

[Ollie9]

Having already retired, i wonder if Cindy would have been vocally up to scratch for such a high profile tour?.Scherrie and Lynda certainly had the chops, if not the kudos of having performed with Diana in the groups heyday.

[daviddh]

I think Cindy was prepping for the RTL show for almost a year.butbthen the bottom fell out

[RanRan79]

Forget the fact that the story comes from TallTales Turner. Forget all the reasons why casting Flo at that point makes no sense. But this idea that Broadway was only for seasoned veterans and no "new comer" could ever find success there, is laughable. Unless of course that rule would only apply to Florence Ballard.

[Ollie9]

I think Cindy was prepping for the RTL show for almost a year.butbthen the bottom fell out

Thanks dh, I didn’t know that. It’s interesting to speculate whether her participation would have made some kind of difference to the final outcome.

[PeaceNHarmony]

to answer someone question earlier why Cindy allowed Mary to speak for her during the RTL negotiations.
Cindy retired and did not have mangement so she allowed Marys team to negotiate for her,she regretted it. i think this an article in which she stated I can't believe Mary said no.Cindy is the true tragedy of Mary's sinking the RTL ship, having needed the income so badly.

[Ollie9]

Cindy is the true tragedy of Mary's sinking the RTL ship, having needed the income so badly.

And i thought it was Diana’s departing train that left Mary stranded at the station. I guess it all depends which report you read.

[sup_fan]

Forget the fact that the story comes from TallTales Turner. Forget all the reasons why casting Flo at that point makes no sense. But this idea that Broadway was only for seasoned veterans and no "new comer" could ever find success there, is laughable. Unless of course that rule would only apply to Florence Ballard.

true - there are absolutely new comers that explode onto the Broadway scene. but they also tend to have a talent for stage acting and performing that is stratospheric. look at what Barbra did with Funny Girl, Julie in My Fair Lady, Carol Burnette in Once Upon A Mattress.

I think pretty much everyone on this board would agree all 3 original Supremes were very talented entertainers. but that doesn't necessarily mean they could handle each and every channel of entertainment. success in singing and in dinner club stage shows wouldn't necessarily correspond with success on the stage in musical theater even though both involve singing and performing live on a stage in front of an audience [[as opposed to tv or movies). they're still completely different genres.

I would love to see a series of videos of the original trio on stage. imagine if we had the 65, 66 and 67 Copa shows on video - watching their growth and progression. sure we have many of the audios and those are wonderful. but it would be so very interesting to see how the 3 girls interacted visually and physically on stage. Berry and others have commented how animated and alive each girl was - we can hear them in the audio but we can't enjoy the animation.

[RanRan79]

I think pretty much everyone on this board would agree all 3 original Supremes were very talented entertainers. but that doesn't necessarily mean they could handle each and every channel of entertainment.

Agreed, but it also doesn't mean they couldn't. And that was my point regarding the talk about Flo and Broadway, as if she would have had to have started on Broadway to be considered. That was never a pre-requisite for Broadway.

But ultimately it comes down to, once again, this was something Tall Tales made up. Flo was in no position to be considered. She was a "rock and roll" singer. Merrick wasn't gambling on that.

Btw, welcome back Sup! I need your opposing viewpoints in order to feel good about myself when I come here. Ya know, because your points are always such bad takes.:cool: Check out the "Love Aint Love" thread when you get a chance. Would love your thoughts.