Leaving Neverland, HBO

[Circa 1824]

I watched HBO's Leaving Neverland last night. I am still speechless. It was a devestating two hours. I believe the boys. One was 7 years old.

Superstardom is so powerful. Even if one does not believe the boys, the show was an expose on superstardom, and how most of us would do almost anything to get close to these superstars.

[Circa 1824]

One of the guys said it was devastating when Michael began to lose interest in him. He said the sex would still continue on rare occasions, and that those occasions instilled the great hope that Michael was again interested in him.

This might explain why they lied in court on Michael's behalf. Lying was yet another attempt to win Michael's approval, and hopefully be welcomed back into his sacred inner circle. The power of superstardom is almost beyond measure.

[carlo]

I have not watched the documentary, but I have done a lot of independent research and have read/watched many of the interviews given by the alleged victims and the director to draw my own conclusion. I am a Michael Jackson fan, however I have not typically been one to be simply swayed and blinded by the celebrity worship mentality. I like to think that I can maintain my own objectivity when it comes to my favourite artists. With that being said, in the era of this #MeToo movement, those who come forward with claims of sexual abuse should always be heard and respected. However, for me, this particular situation is quite different, as there are countless background facts that make me question the validity of their claims. I have included an image below, which lays out some of these facts. These facts make it difficult for me to 100% believe that these men have come forward without any financial motivation. The director has said numerous times that the alleged victims are not being compensated, however this latest article from Roger Friedman makes me question this [[see link included below), as well as the fact that both of these men are currently appealing their lawsuit against the estate that was thrown out of court. Unfortunately this documentary is extremely one-sided, unlike the R. Kelly doc, which also included those in his inner circle, employees, etc. Not only this, but other young friends of Michael's, such as Brett Barnes, Corey Feldman and Macaulay Caulkin, who are still insistent that they were not abused, were omitted [[Brett Barnes is threatening HBO with his own lawsuit due to the unauthorized inclusion of his name/image in this doc). The "legitimacy" of this documentary rests solely on the detailed and explicit accounts laid out by these two men, which will predictably and intentionally evoke a heavy and charged emotional reaction from the viewer. Many have already noticed that their detailed accounts of the abuse very much parallel a tabloid book released in 1997 called, "Michael Jackson Was My Lover" by Victor M. Gutierrez.

Furthermore, last night on Twitter, I read that one of the claims made by James Safechuck was that MJ had lost interest in him and cut off communication once he hit puberty at the age of 13. However, fans responded to this claim by tweeting a photo of James at the age of 16, with Michael and his ex-wife Lisa Marie Presley. In this photo, he had apparently accompanied them on an international trip. I am sure this is just the first of many claims to be debunked.

Do I think it was 'normal' behavior or smart for Michael Jackson to have formed close friendships with children? No. Was he a normal person with a normal psychological profile? No, especially not with his abnormal upbringing and level of unprecedented fame. However, I do not believe that any abusive behavior took place.

https://www.showbiz411.com/2019/03/03/exclusive-michael-jackson-accuser-wade-robson-is-ready-for-donations-with-a-new-non-profit-designed-to-cash-in-on-leaving-neverland

[edafan]

I have not seen this film, and I have not read the books about this.

My only question is this!

Where were the parents allowing unsupervised visits?

A huge part of being a parent is INSURING their safety at all times.

edafan

[jbpintus]

None of us was there when it did happen, if it did happen.
Everyone should read Aphrodite Jones “conspiracy”, her book about the trail, and then put himself/herself in the place of the children’s parents before and during the trial, in the place of MJ during the trial, and in the place of the children then and ever since.
As far as I’m concerned, I do think MJ, as bizzare and special as he was sometimes, never did any harm to any child.
What would you do today if you had known MJ as a kid, and would be offered huge sums of money just by telling lies, knowing MJs image is already forever corrupted, that you don’t risk anything in terms of diffamarory affirmations, and that MJ won’t suffer because of you as he’s dead for nearly 10 years?

In the end, there’s so much magic in MJ recordings, audio and video, that I don’t really care either at that!
David Ruffin, just to mention one, wasn’t less talented because he wasn’t exactly the most friendly person ever, so why should we try and diminish MJ with his personal life?

Just a few cents....

[jaybs]

It's only starts tonight in The UK, on two consecutive nights, I am quite suspicious of programmes like this? why leave it so long, claims no parents were ever present, there are photo's of photo's, some questions about dates claimed. We have gone though the same in the UK over and over again often people who have passed and can't defend themselves any longer!

Interesting here in the UK are running a bus side campaign to raise questions, disappointed with BBC they have taken all Michael Jackson music off air, once it was Innocent until proven guilty.

Be interesting to see the programme being made by TJ Jackson of 3T!

[midnightman]

I'm sorry to break from the pack but I believe them. Michael got away with too much. Celebrities pay to get off crimes. Look at O.J. and R. Kelly. And this is all I'm gonna say about "Leaving Neverland".

[jobeterob]

https://www.cnn.com/2019/03/05/entertainment/corey-feldman-michael-jackson/index.html

That's Corey Feldman defending Jackson.

It's really hard to have an opinion on this - at least one that is worth much because I wasn't there either, nor did I know the people.

The people do seem opportunistic. But on the other hand, Michael and those he relied on seemed incredibly stupid putting himself in that position with young boys. Most of the crimes involving pedophiles occur with the offender putting himself in the proximity where the crime can be committed and Jackson certainly set himself up.

[marv2]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1i5MkC9Ncao

[jobeterob]

https://www.cnn.com/2019/03/05/entertainment/michael-jackson-black-celebs/index.html

Why Some Feel the Need to Protect Black Celebs Like Michael Jackson

[jboy88]

I’m with the pack on this one! This whole “documentary” is just tabloid fodder. At least the R. Kelly doc had interviews with members of his entourage that could back up the allegations against him! “Leaving Neverland” had none of that!

[jboy88]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1i5MkC9Ncao


I saw the whole segment last night! Roland Martin actually did his homework.

[marv2]

I saw the whole segment last night! Roland Martin actually did his homework.

He did indeed. I sincerely believe that if any of the things that are being said now were true, Taj Jackson and others would just be silent. I do not believe Michael Jackson molested children.

[BayouMotownMan]

He did indeed. I sincerely believe that if any of the things that are being said now were true, Taj Jackson and others would just be silent. I do not believe Michael Jackson molested children.

You can believe or not believe that MJ molested little boys but there is no doubt that something was severely wrong with him. And his whole family for that matter. If any civilian in the USA repeatedly had young children spending nights and sharing a bed with him, that civilian would still be behind bars today. Most child molesters are brilliant in duping not only the child but the parents of that child. Had it been anybody other than Michael Jackson neither of these guys parents would have allowed sleepovers with MJ. MJ further took himself down after the first trial by CONTINUING to have very young boys...never girls...do sleepovers and insist it was a beautiful thing. He then entered into a sham marriage with Lisa Presley who later admitted that he charismatically made her fall in love with him and then hide behind the marriage as MJ continued to slide into drug abuse and more interaction with young boys.

I blame the parents as much as I blame MJ. I have longed wondered how he was able to get these parents to agree with these sleepovers. The documentary reveals this by having him schmooze the parents and siblings of his victims with lavish gifts and making them feel sorry for his lonely, misunderstood life.

Anybody other than a molester would have learned from his first trial NOT to continue to have young boys doing sleepovers. But he didn't. He totally busted himself out with the Martin Breshears documentary where he is sitting on a couch holding hands with a young boy, and doing so in a way that was more romantic than father/son. I remember telling people at work the next day I'll bet this will become MJs second trial. A month later he was arrested. He also implicated himself in that same interview by trying to convince Breshears, and the public, that he had only had two nose jobs, that the severe reconstruction of his face was normal, that he was simply growing up.

I'll give MJ that he was a musical genius. And all geniuses seem to be disturbed. I didn't want to believe that he was doing this until the Breshears interview happened. In that interview MJ looked like a man with severe mental issues. I don't know that all the things these two guys said happened really happened, but just reading his notes and faxes to them shows a man with a strange desire, they were totally inappropriate. We all want to remember him as little Michael Jackson from the J5. But the fallout from this documentary is already occurring, with Canada and England banning his music. Only a matter of time before it's banned here.

[bradsupremes]

I haven't seen the documentary nor do I have any intentions to. I'm not sure what happened between MJ and all those boys, but I knew at 14 years old when I saw that Martin Bashir interview when it aired that his relationships with those boys was totally inappropriate. What person says "The nicest thing you can do is share your bed" and thinks it's okay for a grown man [[other than father and son) to sleep with a young boy? Like BayouMotownMan said, if a man is willing to lie about how many nose jobs he's had, what else will he lie about?

This reminds me a lot about what is currently going on with Donald Trump. No person is accused multiple times of things and is truly innocent.

[BayouMotownMan]

Brad, thanks for the note, but I have to point out that what Donald Trump is accused of doing, he did with ADULTS. So it's not quite the same comparison.

[jboy88]

I don’t think anyone will argue about Michael ‘s mental state. I’d often speculated that he suffered from Aspergers [[which is what I have) or something very similar. That would definitely explain at least partially why he behaved the way he did. However, people with Aspergers and other forms of Autism, have a very difficult time not being honest. So it’s possible that if Michael had any idea that he was doing something wrong, he would have told on himself.

As far as any fallout from the documentary, they’re shouldn’t be any. I heard that the ratings for it and the after show were very poor. More people [[especially Black Twitter) are mad about Oprah than MJ.

[bradsupremes]

Brad, thanks for the note, but I have to point out that what Donald Trump is accused of doing, he did with ADULTS. So it's not quite the same comparison.

Maybe I should clarify... On a broad scale of all things considered illegal, if you are accused multiple times of doing an illegal act, it makes your case of true innocence less believable.

[marv2]

I don’t think anyone will argue about Michael ‘s mental state. I’d often speculated that he suffered from Aspergers [[which is what I have) or something very similar. That would definitely explain at least partially why he behaved the way he did. However, people with Aspergers and other forms of Autism, have a very difficult time not being honest. So it’s possible that if Michael had any idea that he was doing something wrong, he would have told on himself.

As far as any fallout from the documentary, they’re shouldn’t be any. I heard that the ratings for it and the after show were very poor. More people [[especially Black Twitter) are mad about Oprah than MJ.

Oprah is being destroyed in social media right now because of the show she is hosting with the two once Michael supporters, but now accusers.......

[marv2]

Maybe I should clarify... On a broad scale of all things considered illegal, if you are accused multiple times of doing an illegal act, it makes your case of true innocence less believable.

But he had a trial in 2005. Both of these guys in this documentary swore under oath that Michael Jackson never molested them. In fact, they were Defense witnesses. Michael cannot be arrested and prosecuted now, so the only motive I can see is money for these guys.

[marv2]

You can believe or not believe that MJ molested little boys but there is no doubt that something was severely wrong with him. And his whole family for that matter. If any civilian in the USA repeatedly had young children spending nights and sharing a bed with him, that civilian would still be behind bars today. Most child molesters are brilliant in duping not only the child but the parents of that child. Had it been anybody other than Michael Jackson neither of these guys parents would have allowed sleepovers with MJ. MJ further took himself down after the first trial by CONTINUING to have very young boys...never girls...do sleepovers and insist it was a beautiful thing. He then entered into a sham marriage with Lisa Presley who later admitted that he charismatically made her fall in love with him and then hide behind the marriage as MJ continued to slide into drug abuse and more interaction with young boys.

I blame the parents as much as I blame MJ. I have longed wondered how he was able to get these parents to agree with these sleepovers. The documentary reveals this by having him schmooze the parents and siblings of his victims with lavish gifts and making them feel sorry for his lonely, misunderstood life.

Anybody other than a molester would have learned from his first trial NOT to continue to have young boys doing sleepovers. But he didn't. He totally busted himself out with the Martin Breshears documentary where he is sitting on a couch holding hands with a young boy, and doing so in a way that was more romantic than father/son. I remember telling people at work the next day I'll bet this will become MJs second trial. A month later he was arrested. He also implicated himself in that same interview by trying to convince Breshears, and the public, that he had only had two nose jobs, that the severe reconstruction of his face was normal, that he was simply growing up.

I'll give MJ that he was a musical genius. And all geniuses seem to be disturbed. I didn't want to believe that he was doing this until the Breshears interview happened. In that interview MJ looked like a man with severe mental issues. I don't know that all the things these two guys said happened really happened, but just reading his notes and faxes to them shows a man with a strange desire, they were totally inappropriate. We all want to remember him as little Michael Jackson from the J5. But the fallout from this documentary is already occurring, with Canada and England banning his music. Only a matter of time before it's banned here.

I will believe it when Diana Ross says so! After all, she was one of the people closest to him from a young age to adulthood.

[Roberta75]

As far as any fallout from the documentary, they’re shouldn’t be any. I heard that the ratings for it and the after show were very poor. More people [[especially Black Twitter) are mad about Oprah than MJ.

Thats not factuall. Leaving Neverland got great ratings and is one of the most watched HBO documentaries of the past decade.

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/live-feed/leaving-neverland-ratings-third-largest-hbo-doc-2010s-1192299

https://www.businessinsider.com/michael-jackson-doc-leaving-neverland-gets-massive-ratings-nielsen-2019-3

[Roberta75]

You can believe or not believe that MJ molested little boys but there is no doubt that something was severely wrong with him. And his whole family for that matter. If any civilian in the USA repeatedly had young children spending nights and sharing a bed with him, that civilian would still be behind bars today. Most child molesters are brilliant in duping not only the child but the parents of that child. Had it been anybody other than Michael Jackson neither of these guys parents would have allowed sleepovers with MJ. MJ further took himself down after the first trial by CONTINUING to have very young boys...never girls...do sleepovers and insist it was a beautiful thing. He then entered into a sham marriage with Lisa Presley who later admitted that he charismatically made her fall in love with him and then hide behind the marriage as MJ continued to slide into drug abuse and more interaction with young boys.

I blame the parents as much as I blame MJ. I have longed wondered how he was able to get these parents to agree with these sleepovers. The documentary reveals this by having him schmooze the parents and siblings of his victims with lavish gifts and making them feel sorry for his lonely, misunderstood life.

Anybody other than a molester would have learned from his first trial NOT to continue to have young boys doing sleepovers. But he didn't. He totally busted himself out with the Martin Breshears documentary where he is sitting on a couch holding hands with a young boy, and doing so in a way that was more romantic than father/son. I remember telling people at work the next day I'll bet this will become MJs second trial. A month later he was arrested. He also implicated himself in that same interview by trying to convince Breshears, and the public, that he had only had two nose jobs, that the severe reconstruction of his face was normal, that he was simply growing up.

I'll give MJ that he was a musical genius. And all geniuses seem to be disturbed. I didn't want to believe that he was doing this until the Breshears interview happened. In that interview MJ looked like a man with severe mental issues. I don't know that all the things these two guys said happened really happened, but just reading his notes and faxes to them shows a man with a strange desire, they were totally inappropriate. We all want to remember him as little Michael Jackson from the J5. But the fallout from this documentary is already occurring, with Canada and England banning his music. Only a matter of time before it's banned here.

As usual the voice of reason.

I wasnt in the room so im not convinced MJ molested those boys but im not convinced that he didnt. Either way MJ made real poor choices and had no business having kids in his bed. The parents of the boys should never have allowed it either. If true, those boys have been severly damaged. If false then God will have to forgive them on judgement day.

[Roberta75]

Oprah is being destroyed in social media right now because of the show she is hosting with the two once Michael supporters, but now accusers.......

If youd have watched the Oprah interview youd have seen she handled it extremelly well and she brought much needed attention to the huge issue of child sexual abuse.

https://www.latimes.com/entertainment/tv/la-et-st-michael-jackson-documentary-oprah-20190301-story.html

https://www.chicagotribune.com/entertainment/tv/ct-ent-leaving-neverland-oprah-interview-20190305-story.html

https://www.nbcnews.com/pop-culture/tv/oprah-winfrey-leaving-neverland-much-bigger-michael-jackson-n979441

https://variety.com/2019/film/news/leaving-neverland-oprah-winfrey-michael-jackson-1203151870/

[PeaceNHarmony]

As usual the voice of reason.

I wasnt in the room so im not convinced MJ molested those boys but im not convinced that he didnt. Either way MJ made real poor choices and had no business having kids in his bed. The parents of the boys should never have allowed it either. If true, those boys have been severly damaged. If false then God will have to forgive them on judgement day.
As frequently happens Ms. Roberta you have done 'beat me to the punch' and stated my thoughts perfectly. And I might add: If, say, Robin Thicke were accused of the same with the same set of circumstantial evidence, would the defenders here be jumping to Robin's defense? I think ... NOT!

[BayouMotownMan]

[QUOTE=marv2;505471]I will believe it when Diana Ross says so! After all, she was one of the people closest to him from a young age to adulthood

Leave it to you Marv to pull Diana Ross into something she has no knowledge or involvement in. For the record, in several interviews she expressed concern for Jackson and told him he was spending too much time alone. She actually saw very little of him after Thriller.

You got yourself thrown out of her concert. Deal with it

[jboy88]

Hold it now! Marv is on to something. Even if Diana wasn’t in Michael’s life as much after “Thriller”, there were many others in the business that were. Most, if not all have come to his defense. I might be more inclined to give this series a chance if they or anyone in Jackson’s entourage were involved. Again, R. Kelly’s documentary had not just the victims, but people who’d been in his life since his youth. Many people knew what he, and Bill Cosby for that matter, were up to for decades.
We don’t have that with Michael.

[Roberta75]

Hold it now! Marv is on to something. Even if Diana wasn’t in Michael’s life as much after “Thriller”, there were many others in the business that were. Most, if not all have come to his defense. I might be more inclined to give this series a chance if they or anyone in Jackson’s entourage were involved. Again, R. Kelly’s documentary had not just the victims, but people who’d been in his life since his youth. Many people knew what he, and Bill Cosby for that matter, were up to for decades.
We don’t have that with Michael.

But Marv or you or others in the business wasnt in the bedroom with MJ and the boy or boys. Michael has many many pedophile characteristic like always wanting to be in there company and was always around children and was always travelling and staying in hotel rooms with young boys and lavishing there parents with gifts and money. Sharing a bed with young boys isnt normal and the boys parents need horsewhipping IMO. I bought his innocene the first time around but the second time not so much.

[BayouMotownMan]

Good point jboy but Michael Jackson kept himself far more secluded from past acquaintances since before the allegations occurred. LaToya recently revealed that he even blocked out his own family. She also said, and Janet confirmed that on several occasions the family tried to stage an intervention. But Michael Jackson paid a bevy for bodyguards quite adept at keeping people away from the star. It would be very in line with reasoning that a child molester or anyone committing sex crimes are generally loners and keep a distance from family while having very few if any friends. If you saw the doc and saw the notes and faxes MJ was sending these boys it speaks a lot about his mindset. They were totally inappropriate.

I didn't believe the accusations either. Until MJ did the Martin Beshears interview. I'm sure it is on YouTube. His vulnerability was apparent and his efforts at logic to justify having young boys sleep in his bed was shocking and totally incoherent. I knew then something untoward was going on. Even if the sexual act didn't happen the way these two accusers said it, MJ left himself wide open to criminal and civil charges simply by having underage boys, unattended, in his bedroom at night. MJ lied about Lisa Presley, his children are clearly NOT his biological children, he was a drug addict and was spiraling into bankruptcy. There was nothing anyone could do. As Elvis Presley did, he surrounded himself with YES men who should have stepped up once they knew what was really going on. I would not expect Ross, Robinson, Gordy or Wonder to admit to this because typically no one WANTS to believe such charges against such a beloved entertainer. Oprah Winfrey finally accepted all this and she is catching hell from fans and family. Why would other entertainers want to put themselves through this.

[dvus7]

[QUOTE=marv2;505471]I will believe it when Diana Ross says so! After all, she was one of the people closest to him from a young age to adulthood

Leave it to you Marv to pull Diana Ross into something she has no knowledge or involvement in. For the record, in several interviews she expressed concern for Jackson and told him he was spending too much time alone. She actually saw very little of him after Thriller.

You got yourself thrown out of her concert. Deal with it

Thank you, Motownman...He[[marv2) is always trying to hijack a topic!!!!

[carlo]

Following up on my earlier post in this thread, I've continued to do my own research during the last few days, as fan forums and news articles generally communicate a limited and biased picture. I came across a blog, which includes details and photos regarding Michael's friendship with Jonathan Spence, along with others. If you check out the second photo in the link below [[see the position of Michael's hand on the right), it is enough to make me highly doubt his innocence. It's also very telling that Jonathan Spence has not spoken out since the 90's and did not testify at the 2005 trial.

As a fan, part of me all of these years has really wanted to believe he was innocent, but when you take a good look at all of the facts for what they are...

https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwiz3bzGwezgAhUR0IMKHfMFBHwQzPwBegQIARAC&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.mjfacts.com%2Fthe-truth-about-michael-jackson-feat-jonathan-spence%2F&psig=AOvVaw3vFZH9oekHaJ6SFhtzNNzz&ust=1551927219761673

[carlo]

...sorry, meant to say it is the first photo in the link.

[jboy88]

I’m watching part 2 right now. I was channel surfing and I stumbled upon it. Five minutes in and my head is spinning! I’m even gagging a little! Whether or not these men are telling the truth, It’s some heavy s***. Nevertheless I still think it’s one sided!

[BayouMotownMan]

Carlo, I was in exactly the same place you were. I simply refused to believe that this man who loved children so much would take advantage of them in this manner. I did notice early on that most of the kids around him were little boys, if there were girls they were a sister of those boys. Then the eccentricities just got worse and worse.

I was also suspicious of the massive settlement he gave his first victim. Innocent men don't settle. It hurt his career greatly and when it didn't stop him from actively pursuing young boys my doubts grew.

Again, it was the Martin Beshears documentary that really convinced me. He was sitting on a couch with that little boy and they were behaving like boyfriends instead of mentor/subject. I got a cold feeling watching it and then watching him squirm when Beshears asked why he was lying about not having facial reconstructions. We were talking about it at work the next day and I remember telling a friend the little boy in that piece was probably going to be Jackson's next lawsuit. A month later he was.

MJs mugshot was one of the wierdest I've ever seen. He looked defiant and a bit effeminate.

I'm a believer that where there is smoke, there is fire. There's a huge amount of smoke around MJ.

[jboy88]

Steve Harvey got on him about hanging out with underaged boys. I’m sure others in his circle tried to tell him the same thing! It was only after the ‘05 trail that Mike got the message! From then until his death, the only kids we saw him with were his own.

[jobeterob]

http://www.damienshields.com/what-the-media-refuses-to-tell-you/

[vgalindo]

I am friends with Evan Ross on Facebook and he is really mad about this documentary. He said its not true. When he was young he was very close to Michael Jackson and knew him very well. That he spent a lot of time with Michael..He also brought up Macaluy Calkin and Corey Feldman. He is also upset with Oprah for giving them this platform.

[jobeterob]

Some of the Gordy’s are very angry too

[carlo]

Thanks BayouMotownMan. I agree that there was a lot of "smoke" around MJ.

Earlier in this thread, jbpintus pointed out the book called "The Michael Jackson Conspiracy" by Aphrodite Jones. I used to own this book and read it possibly 10 years ago. I remember it was a well-written pro-Michael Jackson argument, presenting the holes in the court case from 2005. At the time I had read it, I was on the fence regarding his innocence and I remember this book swayed me to his side. I may need to re-visit it again and see if this book still holds up for me, in light of the new information being presented. I am big on getting the real facts, as there is a lot of misinformed journalists out there at the moment, writing articles and incorporating a lot of untrue hearsay and gossip in order to build an argument for "cancelling Michael Jackson" from our culture.

I tend to wonder how things will be going foward? There are already dozens of radio stations pledging to ban Michael from their playlists. I feel that it will be difficult to 100% 'cancel' Michael Jackson, as his music heavily influenced so many artists. Every time we see and hear Bruno Mars, we get the MJ comparisons. I wonder if Diana will continue to perform "Ease on Down the Road" in her shows? I hope she will.

[marv2]

It was an epic fail! The ratings were in the toilet, with barely a million viewers and Oprah's interview did even worse with less than 800,000 viewers.

[Roberta75]

It was an epic fail! The ratings were in the toilet, with barely a million viewers and Oprah's interview did even worse with less than 800,000 viewers.


It wasnt an epic fail it was the third most watched documentary in a decade.

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/live-feed/leaving-neverland-ratings-third-largest-hbo-doc-2010s-1192299

Besides a million or a hundred viewers it was all worth it if one more child come forward to speak out about if it happened to them. 1 in 6 kids are sexually abused. 1 in 6.

[carlo]

Here is a great interview by Piers Morgan with the director of the doc, Dan Reed. Great points raised by both sides.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NRIJDgLRyNA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NRIJDgLRyNA

[PeaceNHarmony]

Deleted & exiting thread.

[jobeterob]

Heres's a Facebook post from one of the Gordy's which I asked if I could repost. Cheryl is Robert's sister.


Robert Gordy Jr
17 hrs ·

Cheryl Tyrrell wrote:
Wade Robson... you should be ashamed of yourself!!! You and your family befriended the biggest star in the world. I personally recall your mom Joy calling MJJ Music with a sob story about needing money knowing that Michael Jackson loved her and your entire family and would do anything to help her. Michael especially loved you like a son because you dreamed of being a dancer as your mother took you around Australia impersonating who.... Michael Jackson.
Your family moved to the United States leaving your father behind and Michael gave you a record deal as part of a rap duo named QUO! It FAILED!!!
Michael Set you up with his niece Brandi and you guys were together for several years... until you CHEATED with other woman several Times.... she left you!
You still remained in the Jackson Circle.... Why? Because it opened doors for you being associated with Michael Jackson and his family.
That association with Michael Jackson afforded you the opportunity to befriend such artist as Justin Timberlake and Brittany spears... and what did you do...You started working with Justin as a Choreographer and then slept with his girlfriend Brittany Spears and was FIRED. Justin then wrote a song about it called "Cry Me A River". And yet you called Justin your FRIEND!!!
You used your association with Michael Jackson to befriend PRINCE and Mayte.... and what did you do.... You slept with HER!!! Some friend you are!!
You use your association with Michael Jackson to get yourself a gig on a television dance show.... word gets out about your previous disregard and loyalty toward high profile celebrities... and what happens.... you get CUT from that show.
Michael Jackson plans his THIS IS IT concert and you BEG to be the choreographer for the show.... Michael Chooses another Choreographer.... what do you do now that your web of lies are catching up with you and you are now Hollywood damaged goods.... You turn on the one man who looked out for you and your family your ENTIRE life and make up child abuse/molestation allegations that you have emphatically stated for many many years....NEVER HAPPENED!!
Fast forward to today... Michael Jackson is sadly NO LONGER with us. You now beg Michaels Nephew Taj Jackson for VIP access to Michael Jacksons funeral for YOU and your entire family. yet you claim this monster molested you...Sick.
You are now considered a home wrecking, disloyal individual and is essentially blackballed from Hollywood. What do you do? Because You know the world knows you are associated with Michael Jackson.... you use that association once again to change your LIFE LONG STORY to now claim... Michael Jackson molested you. Why? because you are BROKE and your wife is demanding you start making money or she will leave you.
You now convince another broke kid from Michaels past [[Pepsi commercial) to join you in a frivolous lawsuit against Michael Jacksons Estate for 100's of Millions of dollars. The courts agree that there is no merit to this lawsuit and dismiss it!!
The Jackson family never fight back when people say disparaging things about their family. Mrs. Jackson once told me when i questioned her about this... she replied "because DIRT sinks and CREAM rises"
Wade knows this to be true as well........
So -- What does he do? He and "James Safechuck" concoct a story so salacious, so scandalous so despicable, and presents it to HBO for a one sided EXPLOSIVE televised documentary of LIES... in hopes that the Michael Jackson BILLION DOLLAR ESTATE will settle with you financially to make this documentary go away.
Well that documentary of LIES will air this weekend.... and unlike the Jackson's past... this new generations of Jackson kids are not having it!! they are suing HBO for airing your lying ass!!
I hope when this is all said and done, the estate counter sues YOU in civil court and WIN! I hope it renders you penniless for the rest of your life. Michael Jackson was good to YOU, your mother Joy and your sister Chantel.... and because your gravy train has run out... THIS is how you repay him. You are a sad excuse for a human being!!!
Sorry for this long post... but knowing what i know I just couldn't be silent.
For any of you who thought Michael Jackson was strange... I get it... because there is no one else on earth to compare him to. Yes, there are other child stars who grew up to "blend in" to society...and i get it... But when you are Michael Jackson and the only thing on earth that is more recognizable than you is the yellow "M" at McDonalds..... that in itself is "Strange!"
Anyways.... i say...... "Boycott!" the documentary... and if you MUST WATCH... know that you now know the basis of the scandalous lies contained within the documentary!
Let that man rest in PEACE!!!

[carlo]

Peace N' Harmony, I noticed you deleted your post after I had responded to and quoted the same post. Out of respect for your decision to delete it, I have also deleted my response. Cheers

[jboy88]

Let’s be real, there’s skepticism on both sides of this story! As harrowing as the show might have been, it’s still a one sided affair that IMO, caters to the side that says he’s guilty! And I hate that they are making these allegations about a man who’s not around to defend himself! And I don’t like how some fans are trying to “cancel” him.

Even if the ratings were decent, the reviews have been mixed. As stated before, more people are upset with Oprah for giving these guys more credibility! Everyone in the audience were survivors of abuse. No one from the Jackson family was involved. Again, one sided. While I’m not about “canceling” people, Oprah lost a lot of cool points!

Michael Jackson is gone now. He’s faced his final judgment! Why not just let this go, and enjoy the music he left us.

But that’s just my opinion.

[marv2]

Let’s be real, there’s skepticism on both sides of this story! As harrowing as the show might have been, it’s still a one sided affair that IMO, caters to the side that says he’s guilty! And I hate that they are making these allegations about a man who’s not around to defend himself! And I don’t like how some fans are trying to “cancel” him.

Even if the ratings were decent, the reviews have been mixed. As stated before, more people are upset with Oprah for giving these guys more credibility! Everyone in the audience were survivors of abuse. No one from the Jackson family was involved. Again, one sided. While I’m not about “canceling” people, Oprah lost a lot of cool points!

Michael Jackson is gone now. He’s faced his final judgment! Why not just let this go, and enjoy the music he left us.

But that’s just my opinion.

I agree. They tried him when he was alive and he was found not guilty. To attempt to try him again after he has died is disingenuous and a waste of time. I will remain satisfied with the verdict of 2005....Not Guilty! I will also enjoy Michael's music when I want!

[jobeterob]

I have very mixed feelings about this now because there has been support for Mr. Jackson from people that were there.

As a lawyer, I have quite a lot of doubt that anything would have stood up in criminal court and it didn't stand up in one case.

What is clear is what we see so often; entertainers are often not the most knowledgeable, book educated people and they make very stupid choices that come back to haunt them for the rest of their lives. [[Maybe we all do!)

Michael Jackson made some of dumbest choices you could ever make and paid dearly for them. We now live in an age of information and misinformation where standards are increasingly high and Mr. Jackson and his estate are still paying the price for bad choices.

[Roberta75]

more people are upset with Oprah for giving these guys more credibility! Everyone in the audience were survivors of abuse. No one from the Jackson family was involved. Again, one sided. While I’m not about “canceling” people, Oprah lost a lot of cool points!

In Oprahs defense she said that this is bigger than Michael Jackson and Oprah is survivor of sexual abuse. If this documentary brings more attention to pedophillia then its done its job. Id encourage everyone to read this.

https://medium.com/@anthonyedwards/yes-mom-there-is-something-wrong-f2bcf56434b9

[jobeterob]

https://metro.co.uk/2019/03/06/michael-jackson-told-nephew-consider-sleeping-kids-looked-outside-world-8832525/

[soulster]

I do not think that a doc on alleged victims of Michael Jackson is the best place to crusade for the plight of sexual abuse victims.

I am leaning toward the idea that MJ did something with an underage teen at some point. But, there is no hard evidence. Everything about the method of operation of a typical sexual predator fits MJ, but that still does not make MJ guilty.

[arr&bee]

You know,the two greatest mysteries in american history are...who killed j.f.k.-did m.j.seduce those boys???-guess what folks-both of these men are-d-e-a-d and will be judged by god himself,so we can read and speculate all we want because that's what we as humans do..but as far as m.j. Goes-i just enjoy the art he brought to the world!!

[midnightman]

The best anyone can say is you can believe the victims and still enjoy his music. I personally can't but I understand. It is what is.

[TheMotownManiac]

I didn’t believe it before but I do now. I don’t care how many times they change their story, I went into watching this believing that they were just looking for money. I was never molested, and I don’t know what I believe About the harm that was done… If it were done. However, both men make compelling arguments that go way beyond “he touched my genitals “ i’m talking about the aftermath, I’m talking about the years later, I’m talking about their relationships with those that should’ve protected them, I believe their stories and I believe that MJ had 1 million good qualities…… And that he truly did love children….doc but I also believe that he stopped maturing sexually at a young age much like he did other emotional developments. No one will ever know unless of course they take a polygraph test. Jackson’s family could sue these boys in civil court and try to force a poly graph test which is admissible in California in civil cases. If the boys had nothing to hide, they would agree. Personally, I don’t think they care if people believe them or not…… I think it just trying to wake people up to say don’t let children sleep with strange men in their bed…… Because if you’re stupid enough to do that, you probably should not be having children to begin with! I don’t know of a parent Who would allow that.

Of course, there are people who will defend anybody against anything if they have a motive…… Look at the people that that OJ was innocent, or Bill Cosby… Even after he admitted that he had a lot of people supporting him trying to poke holes and his accusers ridiculed or look at the people that stand behind Donald Trump against over whelming evidence that he lied about so many things and continues to do so….doc those people will never be objective about Michael, and I don’t think it matters…… What matters is that boys and girls stop being abused and that people open up their eyes and look around and make sure that if it walks like a duck and smells like a dark it might be a dark and even if it turns out not to be A duck, it’s better to be safe than ducked.

[PeaceNHarmony]

I didn’t believe it before but I do now. I don’t care how many times they change their story, I went into watching this believing that they were just looking for money. I was never molested, and I don’t know what I believe About the harm that was done… If it were done. However, both men make compelling arguments that go way beyond “he touched my genitals “ i’m talking about the aftermath, I’m talking about the years later, I’m talking about their relationships with those that should’ve protected them, I believe their stories and I believe that MJ had 1 million good qualities…… And that he truly did love children….doc but I also believe that he stopped maturing sexually at a young age much like he did other emotional developments. No one will ever know unless of course they take a polygraph test. Jackson’s family could sue these boys in civil court and try to force a poly graph test which is admissible in California in civil cases. If the boys had nothing to hide, they would agree. Personally, I don’t think they care if people believe them or not…… I think it just trying to wake people up to say don’t let children sleep with strange men in their bed…… Because if you’re stupid enough to do that, you probably should not be having children to begin with! I don’t know of a parent Who would allow that.

Of course, there are people who will defend anybody against anything if they have a motive…… Look at the people that that OJ was innocent, or Bill Cosby… Even after he admitted that he had a lot of people supporting him trying to poke holes and his accusers ridiculed or look at the people that stand behind Donald Trump against over whelming evidence that he lied about so many things and continues to do so….doc those people will never be objective about Michael, and I don’t think it matters…… What matters is that boys and girls stop being abused and that people open up their eyes and look around and make sure that if it walks like a duck and smells like a dark it might be a dark and even if it turns out not to be A duck, it’s better to be safe than ducked.
Well stated, particularly with the djt tie-in. So true.

[jobeterob]

I don't think things will ever be quite the same for MJ and his legacy. We are in a different era and also in an era of information overload and misinformation.

Some people that were there certainly are not impressed by the complainants and the complainants seem to not be the most honourable people. And some of the MJ defenders are higher profile people that wouldn't gain anything much from defending him except they believe what they are saying.

But I understand why victims do not speak out for years and years.

For me, in the end, I think something more was going on that just some platonic, angelic, child like friendships.

[Roberta75]

I don't think things will ever be quite the same for MJ and his legacy. We are in a different era and also in an era of information overload and misinformation.

Some people that were there certainly are not impressed by the complainants and the complainants seem to not be the most honourable people. And some of the MJ defenders are higher profile people that wouldn't gain anything much from defending him except they believe what they are saying.

But I understand why victims do not speak out for years and years.

For me, in the end, I think something more was going on that just some platonic, angelic, child like friendships.

I watched all 4 hours of the HBO documentary and found the boys/men real believable. Michael made some terrible choices I mean what grown man sleep with young boys in the same bed and thought it was real normal. MJ had a huge issue with drugs and self estem and all that facial surgery was real scary. He was such a handsome young man and turn his face into a haggard middle aged womans. At the end of the day the only folks that know the real honest to God truth are God, the boys and Michael Jackson. The parents of those boys should be horsewwipped for putting there kids in danger and subjecting them to possible sexual abuse. The Jackson family and the media and none of us in this here forum were in the room when Michael was sleeping with boys so none of us know the real truth. IMO MJ may have interfered with the boys private areas but im not certain.

[midnightman]

I didn’t believe it before but I do now. I don’t care how many times they change their story, I went into watching this believing that they were just looking for money. I was never molested, and I don’t know what I believe About the harm that was done… If it were done. However, both men make compelling arguments that go way beyond “he touched my genitals “ i’m talking about the aftermath, I’m talking about the years later, I’m talking about their relationships with those that should’ve protected them, I believe their stories and I believe that MJ had 1 million good qualities…… And that he truly did love children….doc but I also believe that he stopped maturing sexually at a young age much like he did other emotional developments. No one will ever know unless of course they take a polygraph test. Jackson’s family could sue these boys in civil court and try to force a poly graph test which is admissible in California in civil cases. If the boys had nothing to hide, they would agree. Personally, I don’t think they care if people believe them or not…… I think it just trying to wake people up to say don’t let children sleep with strange men in their bed…… Because if you’re stupid enough to do that, you probably should not be having children to begin with! I don’t know of a parent Who would allow that.

Of course, there are people who will defend anybody against anything if they have a motive…… Look at the people that that OJ was innocent, or Bill Cosby… Even after he admitted that he had a lot of people supporting him trying to poke holes and his accusers ridiculed or look at the people that stand behind Donald Trump against over whelming evidence that he lied about so many things and continues to do so….doc those people will never be objective about Michael, and I don’t think it matters…… What matters is that boys and girls stop being abused and that people open up their eyes and look around and make sure that if it walks like a duck and smells like a dark it might be a dark and even if it turns out not to be A duck, it’s better to be safe than ducked.

Exactly. When it comes to people like Michael, they wanna make him into a deity without realizing how flawed he was. And honestly, when you put two and two together, the man was being VERY inappropriate with these kids, regardless. You don't pay a child and their family and their lawyers $25 million if you're innocent. Paying them G's for hush money is gonna make you suspect.

But like Chris Rock said, we loved MJ so much we let it slide. That documentary is too powerful for "the other side". We always talk about "believing victims" until the victims are male, then suddenly we ain't supposed to believe them. No, Michael is guilty. Guilty as sin. MJ's legacy as well as the Jackson family legacy will never be looked at the same again.

[midnightman]

The documentary is the third highest viewed documentary in HBO history for over a decade. Over 1.3 million. That's not a small number for a cable station. 1.9 million saw R. Kelly's on Lifetime and look what has happened to him.

Everyone knew but some choose to put their head in the sand.

[TheMotownManiac]

And people are forgetting that Michael was abused, perhaps not sexually, but clearly his early years had an impact on his later years in a very negative weird way. I’m not sticking up for anybody who’s ever molested anyone, but guilty or innocent, Michael was a victim long before He became suspicious of being a perpetrator…… It’s all so very sad and awful

[midnightman]

Michael just lived a sad, awful and tragic life. Period.

[jboy88]

Michael just lived a sad, awful and tragic life. Period.

Ironically, this was the main reason I looked up to him. [[Most of my favorite MJ songs at that time were from his Motown days) As I said earlier in the thread, Michael’s behavior was not unlike a child/teen with Aspergers. I would see how the media would dog him out over the way he lived and his eccentricities. And I could relate to it, because I was bullied and teased a lot. Around the same time he was on trail, I was in a similar situation with a classmate that I won’t get into further. In a sense, he was a socially awkward hero. In fact, whenever I felt like someone wasn’t treating me fairly, i’d say “you’re treating me like the media treats Michael Jackson”.

I want to believe Michael was 100 innocent, but I doubt it. Even if he meant no ill intent, he still could have crossed the line.

[carlo]

https://abcnews.go.com/US/michael-jacksons-nanny-defends-sex-abuse-allegations-hbos/story?id=61531201

Michael Jackson's former nanny defends him against new sex abuse allegations in HBO's 'Leaving Neverland'

One of Michael Jackson’s longest-serving employees[[Grace Rwaramba)has come forward to defend the late pop star, saying that in all the years she worked for Jackson she never witnessed, suspected or learned of any sexual abuse of children by the pop star.

In a lengthy statement released to ABC News, Grace Rwaramba – the former nanny to Jackson’s children, Prince Michael I, Paris and Prince Michael II [[known as ‘Blanket’), who worked for Jackson for 17 years – described her former boss as hopelessly naïve to manipulation and incapable of hurting children.
“If Michael harmed Wade Robson and James Safechuck, they have my deepest sympathy and compassion,” Rwaramba said in the statement, referring to the two men featured in the documentary. “I don’t claim to know what happened between Michael and his accusers. I wasn’t there.”

“However, because Michael is no longer here to defend himself, and because I have a unique view of him and the life he lived, I feel compelled to speak out against what I firmly believe to be false claims. The person that Wade and James describe is not the person that I knew.”

“He was trusting to the point of extreme naivete; always assuming the best intentions in everyone,” Rwaramba said of Jackson in the statement. “While he was far from perfect, in my over twelve years of living with Michael, knowing him and his lifestyle intimately, I never saw or experienced anything that led me to suspect that he was capable of child sexual abuse.”

Rwaramba contended in her statement that there was an "army" of people working at Jackson’s California ranch whenever the iconic artist was there, and that it would have been extremely difficult for the star to molest visiting children.

“I was at Neverland when many of the family friends would come and go," Rwaramba said in the statement. "At any given time, anywhere between 60 to 100 employees worked in security, maintenance, housekeeping, grounds, the kitchen, and many other roles. Maintaining the ranch in such immaculate shape took an entire army of workers that were always around.”


“I know Wade Robson and his family well,” Rwaramba said in the statement. “I first met Joy Robson back in the early 90s, when I was at MJJ Productions. In late 1994, I attended the release party of Wade’s first album in California. I distinctly recall Joy running that event as though her life depended on it. After that release party, I didn’t see the Robsons again until early 1997, when Wade joined several other families at Neverland after Prince was born.”


“Over the years, I got to know the Robsons well as they visited the ranch on many different occasions,” Rwaramba continued in the statement. “Neverland was an enchanting place where the butlers, cooks, maids, zookeepers, gardeners and other staff made every guest feel like royalty, and everyone person who was fortunate to visit loved it!”
“The one thing that was consistent about the Robsons over the years was Joy's steely resolve to turn Wade into a star,” Rwaramba said in the statement. “When all the other kids, often including Michael, were off having water balloon fights or watching a movie in the theater, Joy would be drilling Wade on a dance move and every so often wave Michael over for some tips.”

“On one such occasion, Michael sat next to me as I was watching Prince and we watched Wade practice under Joy’s focused inspection. He said to me, “she reminds me of Joseph,” referring to his father’s obsession with perfection. Unbeknownst to Joy, that was her nickname. Michael had a nickname for everyone. This was the only time I ever heard him compare anyone to his father. Also, despite his complicated past with Joseph, he meant this observation as a compliment.”Rwaramba also claimed that Robson sought permission to hold his wedding at Neverland -– in the middle of Jackson’s 2005 criminal trial, for which he was acquitted of all charges.

“The Robsons’ ambition and self-interest knew no bounds,” Rwaramba wrote in her statement. “Several months before Michael was acquitted on all charges on June 13, 2005, he came home from court and informed me that I should expect a call from Wade. When Wade called the ranch, security patched the call through to Paris’s room where Michael and I spent most of our time preparing for the next day.

"I put him on speaker phone," Rwaramaba continued. "He informed me that Michael had advised him to contact me about whether he and his fiancee, Amanda, could have their wedding at Neverland in the fall. I was utterly shocked by how insensitive the request was; Michael was sitting next to me.

"’You know Grace, Neverland is so special to my family and me,’ Wade continued,” according to Rwaramba’s statement. “’Michael has been like a father to me, and it would mean the world to us if Amanda and I could get married at Neverland.’ I told Wade, this is not a good time, reminding him that Michael was in the middle of the fight for his life.”

“A few days later, I was in Santa Barbara running errands when Joy called with the same request. I had previously helped Wade gain permission to film a music video at Neverland, which was a big favor considering the strict no cameras policy. I remember responding with a stern ‘do you seriously expect me to ask Michael, right now -- during the trial -- if you can use the ranch for Wade’s wedding?’

"After a moment of awkward tension, she conceded and dropped off the phone," Rwaramaba wrote in the statement. "Why would someone who alleges to have been assaulted for over seven years want to have one of the most sacred events in his life on the same property where the attacks allegedly took place?’”

“What I can't understand is why Wade would continue to voluntarily and consistently return, and bring friends and loved ones, to a place that is the site of the alleged attacks well into his adult life?” Rwaramba said in the statement.
Rwaramba, a Rwandan national, began working as a personnel director and assistant to Jackson in 1992, and became a nanny to his children beginning in 1997, when Jackson’s first child, Prince, was born.

“For twelve years, from 1997 to 2009, I was part of Michael’s family … I spent more time with Michael in the last twelve years of his life than anyone except his children.”

[midnightman]

That nanny wasn't there when he abused the two boys in the docu or most of the boys before she became the nanny and she wasn't around after 2004, I don't think.

The estate is running out of options. Their best bet is to hope this doesn't derail their plans for the Broadway play on MJ next year.

[sansradio]

Wasn't Rwaramba rumored to be Blanket's biological mother?

[TheMotownManiac]

What has the nanny got to do with anything? 99.99999999999% of molestations don’t happen in front of witnesses. Geeze

[marv2]

That nanny wasn't there when he abused the two boys in the docu or most of the boys before she became the nanny and she wasn't around after 2004, I don't think.

The estate is running out of options. Their best bet is to hope this doesn't derail their plans for the Broadway play on MJ next year.

But you know what, no one other than Michael and the boys were there. Michael should have had witnesses around whenever he had children at his home. Still, as actor Mark Lester said, none of this hub bub will stick. It will fade out after about a month:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UU4BFM_R1KI

[jboy88]

https://youtu.be/llLQEi4NMxIProbably the fairest rebuttal I’ve seen so far.

[DJMoch]

I am able to separate the "artist" from the "art" [[Yay for cognitive dissonance, I guess.) I've also never seen the point of banning music, or any form of censorship for that matter. His musical legacy is undeniable, but obviously the allegations cast a very dark shadow over it.

But, given MJ's been dead for almost a decade now and obviously can't speak for himself against the allegations, it feels a bit like locking the barn door after the horse has bolted. I feel absolutely awful for the victims if the allegations are indeed true, but what kind of recompense can be realistically expected?

After all, one can blame the artist for their transgressions, however grievous they may be, but how does one blame the music, really? It's silly.

Peace,
Emile [[AKA DJ Moch)

[marv2]

They should have told their parents back at the time it happened. They didn't because nothing ever happened. That's what they testified to under oath in 2005. Now, the "accusers" can go to Hell [[and take Oprah Winfrey with them....) as far as I am concerned. What some people will do for money is disgusting.

[cornybside]

I agree, Marv. Follow the money trail. It's not a coincidence that they timed the release of this doc with the appeal of their $75 Mil lawsuit against the estate. This is not about us believing female accusers over male accusers. It's taking a good hard look at the facts. Wade Robson is a proven opportunist and liar. He even referred to himself as a 'master of deception'. Look how far he and his mother went to attach themselves to MJ while he was alive...at all costs! They are leaches. Now that the gravy train has left the station without him, he's doing the only thing left that he can do, being the desperate and sociopathic person he is. The fact that he started a 'charitable organization' immediately after the airing of the documentary speaks volumes to me. It's more than possible to make oneself a salaried director of your own charity. You see this type of behaviour with churches all the time. They deliver those sermons that break you down to your core, in order to appeal to your emotions, and the next thing you know...you're up there at the altar, crying and giving your life over and giving them all of your money, not questioning for yourself, "Who is this pastor that I have decided to blindly follow?" I can say this because I have lived this. It's common sheep mentality. Same thing is happening with this documentary. Right now everyone is in a hate Michael Jackson frenzy. Once the storm passes, the truth will come out and be much more clear. I also believe that there are people behind this documentary who were hellbent on bringing down the Michael Jackson machine while he was alive. Now they are trying to do the same now that he is dead. Let's just say that there are major figures behind the scenes who have secret motives and vendettas. You can't tell me that there aren't more Harvey Weinstein types out there. This whole thing is absolutely and ridiculously orchestrated. Check out the Aphrodite Jones book and it details the insanity and conspiracy around the 2005 trial. She even made some outtakes available from Martin Bashir's documentary. He really buttered up MJ by following him and lying to him for over a year, with MJ getting no compensation. He told him we will change the world together, I will join you on your humanitarian activities, we will do this, and that. He really pretended to be a friend to Michael and then turned around and stabbed him in the back, in the name of making money and a career for himself. It was proven in court that Bashir was the one who suggested that they bring Michael's friend Gavin Arvizio [[2005 accuser) to the ranch for the filming and then he also suggested that they hold hands etc. The entire thing was orchestrated. This is the exact thing that is happening again. There are too many leaches in the world of celebrity.

[marv2]

The Billion Dollar Lie!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_kQgPXlNdY&lc=z224yndq3wbedhcnyacdp434zfe2bu1e5t11q122yy1w03c 010c.1552147638978124

[robb_k]

And people are forgetting that Michael was abused, perhaps not sexually, but clearly his early years had an impact on his later years in a very negative weird way. I’m not sticking up for anybody who’s ever molested anyone, but guilty or innocent, Michael was a victim long before He became suspected of being a perpetrator…… It’s all so very sad and awful
15242
This is very true. There is a reason for everything. His need for love and acceptance surely was made desperate by maltreatment. Whether he had any overtly sexual relations with those boys, or not, he was wrong to have that type of "special relationship" with them, even aside from "innocently" sleeping in the same bed with them. He drove a wedge between them and their parents, and interfered with the relationship they had with their parents. Their parents were also negligent in making sure their children were not only physically safe, but, emotionally safe".

Michael's very attraction to these children regardless of being overtly sexual, or not, is not "normal", and is a sign of arrested emotional development, which could potentially be dangerous.

If it were completely "innocent" [[e.g. a defect in the adult's emotional state), the adult would have been lacking the love and respect, and acceptance of his parents and others around him when he was young, and so he was uncomfortable with his peers, and so, would feel more comfortable around innocent, very young people, whose interests are very basic, lighthearted, and uncomplicated, and match those of his "escapes" during his young years. However, hanging around and playing with children [[ANY children), would satisfy that need. The emotionally disturbed adult, who needs to FOCUS on a relationship with ONE child, to achieve acceptance and "love" [[EVEN IF NOT fulfilled through physical sexual acts) is at least, a closet pedophile [[and, therefore, at least an emotional danger to the chosen child).

[Roberta75]

Corey Feldman cant defend Michael jackson anymore after watching all of the HBO documentary and Oprahs interview.

https://ew.com/celebrity/2019/03/07/corey-feldman-can-no-longer-defend-michael-jackson/

https://www.eonline.com/shows/daily_pop/videos/284957/corey-feldman-can-no-longer-defend-michael-jackson

[Roberta75]

The Simpsons classic Michael jackson episode has been pulled and wont air again.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/03/08/entertainment/simpsons-michael-jackson/index.html

[jobeterob]

Michael Jackson’s sales decline

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/uproxx.com/music/michael-jackson-sales-decline-leaving-neverland/amp/

[marv2]

Michael Jackson’s music surges in charts after child sex abuse claims...

https://www.thesun.co.uk/tvandshowbiz/8601785/michael-jackson-music-surges-in-charts-leaving-neverland-thriller-bad-billie-jean/

[Levi Stubbs Tears]

Some artists - such as the Australian Rolf Harris - are in jail now because of these 'retro-claims'. Personally I hate them - 'why didn't they speak out before?' always comes to mind to me.

But Leaving Neverland did a lot to explain to me why people may not have spoken out before and why parents were oblivious [[and even 'turned a blind eye').

[midnightman]

Saying Michael can't defend himself because he died long ago is kinda lame since when he WAS alive, he DIDN'T even attempt a defense. He either plead the fifth or he wouldn't take the stand [[which he didn't at his trial). Plus, another dead legend was exposed for being a serial child abuser [[among other things) in the UK [[Jimmy Savile).

Also, what does that do to the two victims whose lives he harmed? I'm sorry, but I can't buy that these guys were "setting him up". That's a failed tactic used by the Jackson camp. Not to mention, the first time he was accused, he settled for $25 million [[$18 million to the child himself), he gave another family of a boy who accused sexual abuse $2 million and who slept multiple nights ALONE with boys, even with boys who defended his actions [[Macaulay Culkin, Brett Barnes, etc.).

This is a guy who when prompted said sleeping in the bed with children was okay and thought it was nothing wrong sharing a bed with a child. How can ANYONE here or anywhere else defend that? Seriously, y'all are defending THIS?

Again, I ask any of you defending this, would you let a person, no matter if they were a famous singer or not, sleep with a child unrelated to them and if you say yes, then you said more than I needed to know about you.

https://media1.tenor.com/images/3979b7928041427f7439fb4be5ebd1b5/tenor.gif?itemid=5618306

[midnightman]

Michael Jackson’s music surges in charts after child sex abuse claims...

https://www.thesun.co.uk/tvandshowbiz/8601785/michael-jackson-music-surges-in-charts-leaving-neverland-thriller-bad-billie-jean/


It's just the UK, that don't count. He's fallen everywhere else, Marvin.

Seriously do any of y'all know how normal it is that abuse victims wait YEARS to tell their stories? It's not unusual because the guy accused was the biggest superstar on the planet at one point.

[jaybs]

It's just the UK, that don't count.

Seriously do any of y'all know how normal it is that abuse victims wait YEARS to tell their stories?

I think you will find UK sales do count!! many soul artists careers were made with UK sales! when the USA did not always support them.

Also you will find many come forward after a person has passed because there is many times no evidence! but they trip themselves up when they make claims they do not realise it can be proved is not Truth! This happened in the UK to a passed PM. I wonder how much HBO paid those in this documentary?? If someone had a clear & cut case you would not go to the media!

[marv2]

Some artists - such as the Australian Rolf Harris - are in jail now because of these 'retro-claims'. Personally I hate them - 'why didn't they speak out before?' always comes to mind to me.

But Leaving Neverland did a lot to explain to me why people may not have spoken out before and why parents were oblivious [[and even 'turned a blind eye').

Well they have had 10 years to come up with the right story, to cover all the bases. I do not believe their story.

[marv2]

It's just the UK, that don't count. He's fallen everywhere else, Marvin.

Seriously do any of y'all know how normal it is that abuse victims wait YEARS to tell their stories? It's not unusual because the guy accused was the biggest superstar on the planet at one point.


Look, I haven't bought Michael Jackson's music in probably 20 years and I like his music a lot. It is because I have all of his songs, albums that I like. Do you really think it is hurting Michael Jackson that some of his old music is not selling like it did years ago? According to the media, only a little more than 1.2 million people even watched that documentary, so I hardly would give it credit for a temporary dip in sales. There is nothing that they can do now to truly destroy Michael Jackson's legacy in the hearts and minds of people all around the World which includes here in America. Those guys, Wade Robson and the other one are not getting a dime from Michael's estate. They lied once, they are lying again now.

[cornybside]

Saying Michael can't defend himself because he died long ago is kinda lame since when he WAS alive, he DIDN'T even attempt a defense. He either plead the fifth or he wouldn't take the stand [[which he didn't at his trial).

He didn't need to take the stand at his trial because the overwhelming amount of evidence against the Arvizio family spoke for itself. I tend to wonder if you are familiar with those details?


Not to mention, the first time he was accused, he settled for $25 million [[$18 million to the child himself), he gave another family of a boy who accused sexual abuse $2 million and who slept multiple nights ALONE with boys, even with boys who defended his actions [[Macaulay Culkin, Brett Barnes, etc.).

He was ill advised by his team to pay off the Chandlers. He was advised that it would be a drop in his financial bucket and he could move on with his life much quicker, which was a huge mistake because it made him appear guilty and set a precedent to allow all of these other leachers to try and create the same lies so they can get a payout. I have never heard of this additional $2 million payout. Source/link please? In the meantime, I recommend reading about Evan Chandler, the father of Jordan, who received the settlement in 1993. It's quite interesting...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evan_Chandler



This is a guy who when prompted said sleeping in the bed with children was okay and thought it was nothing wrong sharing a bed with a child. How can ANYONE here or anywhere else defend that? Seriously, y'all are defending THIS?

It's not a matter of defending whether MJ sharing his bed with a child was right or wrong, as we already know that his behaviour and line of thinking was not "normal". He was anything but, and a psychological evaluation stated he was basically a 10 year old. We aren't defending whether sharing his bed with a child was right or wrong. It's whether this very act can definitely prove without a shadow of a doubt that he abused them. This is the thing that cannot be proven. Him sharing his bed was nothing for him because it was just part of his life, growing up on the road as a kid. But yes, sharing it with a child that is not legally his is indeed weird. He was a weird guy. I would not allow my child to sleep in another man's bed but I also would not move across the world to attach myself to a superstar in order to make a career for my child and abandon my children on a daily basis, as well as my spouse with failing mental health, which is what happened in the case of Wade Robson and his family. These are all around not normal people.

Piers Morgan said it best during his interview with the director of this documentary. The issue in this current age of confessions is when MY truth becomes THE truth, without due investigation. We saw this with the recent Jussie Smollett case.

You don't need to keep trying to sway us. We believe what we believe. I am simply defending my own stance on this matter.

[Roberta75]

Look, I haven't bought Michael Jackson's music in probably 20 years and I like his music a lot. It is because I have all of his songs, albums that I like. Do you really think it is hurting Michael Jackson that some of his old music is not selling like it did years ago? According to the media, only a little more than 1.2 million people even watched that documentary, so I hardly would give it credit for a temporary dip in sales. There is nothing that they can do now to truly destroy Michael Jackson's legacy in the hearts and minds of people all around the World which includes here in America. Those guys, Wade Robson and the other one are not getting a dime from Michael's estate. They lied once, they are lying again now.

1.2 million watched it in the states but this documentary has been shown all over the world. You are doing the same thing you did with Cosby your believing the molester/rapist just like you defend wife beaters like Ike Turner and Pedro Ferrer,

[Roberta75]

Saying Michael can't defend himself because he died long ago is kinda lame since when he WAS alive, he DIDN'T even attempt a defense. He either plead the fifth or he wouldn't take the stand [[which he didn't at his trial). Plus, another dead legend was exposed for being a serial child abuser [[among other things) in the UK [[Jimmy Savile).

Also, what does that do to the two victims whose lives he harmed? I'm sorry, but I can't buy that these guys were "setting him up". That's a failed tactic used by the Jackson camp. Not to mention, the first time he was accused, he settled for $25 million [[$18 million to the child himself), he gave another family of a boy who accused sexual abuse $2 million and who slept multiple nights ALONE with boys, even with boys who defended his actions [[Macaulay Culkin, Brett Barnes, etc.).

This is a guy who when prompted said sleeping in the bed with children was okay and thought it was nothing wrong sharing a bed with a child. How can ANYONE here or anywhere else defend that? Seriously, y'all are defending THIS?

Again, I ask any of you defending this, would you let a person, no matter if they were a famous singer or not, sleep with a child unrelated to them and if you say yes, then you said more than I needed to know about you.

https://media1.tenor.com/images/3979b7928041427f7439fb4be5ebd1b5/tenor.gif?itemid=5618306


The voice of reason. Thank you midnightman. La Toya knew there was her brother was molesting underage boys and the Jacksons may have put the pressure on her to retract it but shes telling the truth. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9_1tGqn4jXc

[midnightman]

Some of y'all really didn't see any wrong in Michael having a bunch of kids and screwing them over.

Again, if I was an INNOCENT man, the VERY LAST THING I would do is pay a kid millions to shut up. A settlement means GUILT, PERIOD.

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/IncredibleLeftIrukandjijellyfish-size_restricted.gif

[midnightman]

The voice of reason. Thank you midnightman. La Toya knew there was her brother was molesting underage boys and the Jacksons may have put the pressure on her to retract it but shes telling the truth. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9_1tGqn4jXc

Exactly but await Marvin and a few others claim LaToya was coached anyway...

[cornybside]

The voice of reason. Thank you midnightman. La Toya knew there was her brother was molesting underage boys and the Jacksons may have put the pressure on her to retract it but shes telling the truth. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9_1tGqn4jXc

She wrote about this in her most recent book, "Starting Over". She says her abusive ex-husband and manager, Jack Gordon, put her up to making these confessions.

[Roberta75]

She wrote about this in her most recent book, "Starting Over". She says her abusive ex-husband and manager, Jack Gordon, put her up to making these confessions.

I dont believe that. Sorry.

[midnightman]

People think pedophilia means a violent sexual abuser. I advise you who don't believe the young brave men who spoke out about MJ to look up "acquaintance pedophile" or "acquaintance molestor". You would be surprised how Michael fits the definition. Clearly a guy who bribed a kid's parents to let him have alone time with their son should be at least suspect.

[Roberta75]

People think pedophilia means a violent sexual abuser. I advise you who don't believe the young brave men who spoke out about MJ to look up "acquaintance pedophile" or "acquaintance molestor". You would be surprised how Michael fits the definition. Clearly a guy who bribed a kid's parents to let him have alone time with their son should be at least suspect.

Most pedofiles trap the kids with kindness and gifts and "love" and make the kid feel safe before they abuse them and then they confuse the kid by saying its a loving thing they are doing and its a secret they need to keep together.

[marv2]

Some of y'all really didn't see any wrong in Michael having a bunch of kids and screwing them over.

Again, if I was an INNOCENT man, the VERY LAST THING I would do is pay a kid millions to shut up. A settlement means GUILT, PERIOD.

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/IncredibleLeftIrukandjijellyfish-size_restricted.gif

First of all, he, Michael didn't pay them. His insurance company paid out the $20 million. They did it because to let the situation continue would damage Michael's brand and causing his net worth to decline. Michael was advised to settle to make the story go away. There was no proof of any sexual abuse. The father of the alleged victim, Chandler was caught on tape explaining how he had a plan to destroy Michael if he did not invest in Chandler's film venture. Chandler, the father later committed suicide after which his son admitted that his father forced him to lie on Michael to get the money!

Michael said sharing your bed with a child was [[I am paraphrasing) a great gesture of love. He went on to say that he slept on the floor and not in the bed with the children. No one has come up with ANY conclusive proof of Michael sexually abusing young boys. The FBI had him under survaillance for over 10 years and they still could not come up with anything on him. A settlement does not necessarily mean guilt. It could also mean that the person or company just wants to get rid of a nuisance.

[PeaceNHarmony]

If the music of an alleged abuser continues to produce income for the corporations who originally funded the abuser, the message sent to those corporations is that they have no reason or incentive to cease monetary support for current or future abusers.

[PeaceNHarmony]

Most pedofiles trap the kids with kindness and gifts and "love" and make the kid feel safe before they abuse them and then they confuse the kid by saying its a loving thing they are doing and its a secret they need to keep together.Very true. Any one second-guessing would be well advised to watch 'Abducted in Plain Sight' currently on Netflix.

[PeaceNHarmony]

1.2 million watched it in the states but this documentary has been shown all over the world. You are doing the same thing you did with Cosby your believing the molester/rapist just like you defend wife beaters like Ike Turner and Pedro Ferrer,Viewership numbers are being trounced by media outlets taking MJ off their playlists.

[jobeterob]

Isn’t it racist to defend a man that is of the same ethnicity as you just because he is of the same ethnicity?

I’m quite sure that in Canada today, the answer is yes

[PeaceNHarmony]

Isn’t it racist to defend a man that is of the same ethnicity as you just because he is of the same ethnicity?

I’m quite sure that in Canada today, the answer is yesNOW 'ya done and did it ... However, here in the USA, vernacular - anecdotal opinion would say 'yes'. As I've said previously, would these same defenders be defending, oh ... let's say ... Alan Thicke? Or Woody Allen? Howzabout Ryan Adams?

[jobeterob]

Or worst of all Donald Trump?

I haven’t seen Leaving Neverland, and only saw 10 minutes of Oprah n YouTube, and criminal proceedings have to be proved beyond a reasonable doubt, but I think I need to disagree with Evan Ross and some of the Gordy’s and fall in with those saying I think Mr Jackson behaved inappropriately with these people when they were boys

[cornybside]

Isn’t it racist to defend a man that is of the same ethnicity as you just because he is of the same ethnicity?

I’m quite sure that in Canada today, the answer is yes

Sorry but did I miss something? Who are you referring to? Are you assuming someone here is simply defending MJ because they belong to the same race? If so, isn't making that kind of assumption without any fact to back it up, also considered racist? How is this even relevant to this discussion?

[jboy88]

https://youtu.be/cBf5LGDm7dc This man and Roland Martin are the MVPs so far.

[cornybside]

Thanks for this, jboy88. A voice of reason.

[PeaceNHarmony]

Or worst of all Donald Trump?

I haven’t seen Leaving Neverland, and only saw 10 minutes of Oprah n YouTube, and criminal proceedings have to be proved beyond a reasonable doubt, but I think I need to disagree with Evan Ross and some of the Gordy’s and fall in with those saying I think Mr Jackson behaved inappropriately with these people when they were boys

I don't think anyone African-American and sane would defend djt ... as for Evan, etc ... they weren't in the room, were they? Their right to have an opinion? Of course. But as you lawyerin' sorts know those closest to the perps usually 'see' the least.

[marv2]

https://youtu.be/cBf5LGDm7dc This man and Roland Martin are the MVPs so far.

Thank you Jboy88. This was very informative.

[jboy88]

Charles Thomson is spot on. It really sucks to see people taking this ONE SIDED show at face value without doing any research. Just because Cosby and R. Kelly are guilty, doesn’t mean Michael Jackson is too. I agree that having young unrelated children sleeping in your bedroom [[even if it is larger than my Grandma’s house) is inappropriate. Anything could have happened in that particular scenario. How many of us have accidentally walked in on a housemate in the bathroom, disrobing, etc? But as far as Michael being a sexual predator, I don’t think so.

[jobeterob]

Sorry but did I miss something? Who are you referring to? Are you assuming someone here is simply defending MJ because they belong to the same race? If so, isn't making that kind of assumption without any fact to back it up, also considered racist? How is this even relevant to this discussion?

I’m saying this is a pretty complex issue and if we were present, we would have a case for a somewhat informed opinion [[like Evan Ross or Robert Gordy or maybe even Oprah and the like who did some research).

But I see Facebook posts like “you white supremacist bastards took down R Kelly and Bill Cosby, what about Elvis Presley and Jerry Lee Lewis?

It should be a little bit more about right and wrong than black and white. More like Motown would have been?

I waffle on Jackson; I ask myself could he have truly been so innocent or did he have a whole other personality he hid even from Evan Ross? Much like other sexual predators did - like Cosby?

[midnightman]

Charles flubbed on the 1993 settlement with the first accuser and admitted so. Try again, guys.

[marv2]

This was not even a legitimate documentary. It was completely one-sided, unlike the trial. Bogus!

[Boogiedown]

Once Michael Jackson kept constantly grabbing his dick while on stage , all bets of his sense of decency were off.

[jboy88]

Charles flubbed on the 1993 settlement with the first accuser and admitted so. Try again, guys.
No, I’m done with this! People have believed this stuff about Michael Jackson since before I was even born! And won’t stop any time soon. Even with a mountain of evidence to prove otherwise. I just hate to see a Motown legend’s legacy tarnished.

[marv2]

The ratings numbers are in and Oprah and HBO failed. They both were ratings disasters. Oprah failed to even get a million viewers.

[marv2]

https://mtonews.com/oprahs-neverland-interview-a-major-flop-ratings-disaster

[marv2]

https://www.showbiz411.com/2019/03/05/ratings-leaving-neverland-not-a-ratings-smash-for-hbo-beaten-by-real-housewives-of-atlanta-beachfront-bargain-hunt-survivalists-show

[midnightman]

Guys who are still defending him, just imagine that this was a normal person you knew from down the street, would you still find a defense or say he's a regressed 10-year-old? Again, he has at least seven accusers [[Terry George, Jordan Chandler, Jason Francia, Gavin Arvizo, Wade Robson, Jimmy Safechuck and Michael Jacobshagen). At some point, you have to stop accepting the PR that the family gave to y'all for 50 years and see the truth even if some of y'all and some of the MJ stans that inexplicably would post videos like this as if it's something to be proud about:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hlu8-JavZ8I

I Want You Back is good but not Four Tops good! Come on now... let it go. It's over.

[marv2]

Guys who are still defending him, just imagine that this was a normal person you knew from down the street, would you still find a defense or say he's a regressed 10-year-old? Again, he has at least seven accusers [[Terry George, Jordan Chandler, Jason Francia, Gavin Arvizo, Wade Robson, Jimmy Safechuck and Michael Jacobshagen). At some point, you have to stop accepting the PR that the family gave to y'all for 50 years and see the truth even if some of y'all and some of the MJ stans that inexplicably would post videos like this as if it's something to be proud about:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hlu8-JavZ8I

I Want You Back is good but not Four Tops good! Come on now... let it go. It's over.

I let it go in 2005 when Michael was found not guilty on 14 counts! It's Wade Robson, Safecheck and that dumb documentary producer that can't seem to let it go! I mean, how can you produce a 4 hour documentary that was all one sided and still not provide any proof?

Show me the receipts! They can't, because there aren't any. Michael Jackson did not molest children.

[Roberta75]

I let it go in 2005 when Michael was found not guilty on 14 counts! It's Wade Robson, Safecheck and that dumb documentary producer that can't seem to let it go! I mean, how can you produce a 4 hour documentary that was all one sided and still not provide any proof?

Show me the receipts! They can't, because there aren't any. Michael Jackson did not molest children.

You have not let it go cause your still carping on about it and you have NO idea what Michael diod with those boys as you werent in the room and neither should have Michael Jackson been sharing a bed with underage boys. Its wrong wrong wrong and the parents are just as bad as Jackson.

[midnightman]

You know what? I'm not finished...

I know how to get at least one of y'all to really think for a minute. I'm gonna run down all the names of the boys Michael spent time with from the ones that just extended to the phone to boys he spent time with alone. Get ready, it's a long one [[WARNING: descriptions in the list contains graphic sexual contact, VIEWER DISCRETION IS ADVISED).

LIST OF MJ'S BOYS [[that includes people he befriended and people who have alleged abuse went down and this ain't just sexual, it's also emotional abuse)

1.) Rodney Allen Rippy [[b. 1968) [[1974-around 1979 or 1980): If you older Soulful Detroit posters remember, there was a boy pitchman named Rodney Allen Rippy. He was popular enough to get on the first-ever American Music Awards at the age of 5. This is where 15-year-old Michael Jackson met him. You can see footage today. According to Rodney in 2005, Michael asked him if he wanted to be friends with him and call each other on the phone, Rodney agreed. Rodney said elsewhere that his mother forbid Michael to physically hang out with him so they settled on phone calls. Rodney said Michael would call him every Saturday afternoon. He said by the time Off the Wall was a hit, they lost contact.

2.) Ricky Segall [[b. 1969) [[1974-around 1979 or 1980): Also at the American Music Awards, Ricky is best known as one of the actors in the family sitcom, The Partridge Family. Anyway, after the AMA's, he also had a phone friendship with 15-year-old Jackson. He was 4. Like Rodney, it never extended outside phone talk and they lost contact around the same time he and Rodney stopped talking.

3.) Terry George [[b. 1965) [[1979-1981): The oldest of the "Jackson boys", Terry met Michael when he was 13 at a hotel in Leeds, England, where Terry lived. He was known for being the "kid interviewer of the rock stars". Michael was his idol. On February 19, 1979, the Jacksons performed in Leeds and Terry was there. Afterwards, he was determined to get an interview with Michael. He eventually found the hotel room where Michael was staying in and was allowed to interview him and his brother Randy. In the conversation, 20-year-old Michael was asked "what is it do you like the most?" Michael's response was "I like kids a lot", just a few minutes later, he added "I like fish" before laughing nervously. After the interview, he asked Terry for his number. Terry again accepted it and the two had a mostly phone relationship from then on. In April of 1979, Terry said their conversation turned abruptly into something that still stuns Terry now: he said Michael began asking him if he masturbated, he hesitated to answer him. After a brief pause, Michael said to Terry, "would you believe I'm doing it now?" Terry then said he heard "strange noises" from Michael's end. When Michael figured Terry wasn't into it, he changed topics. The relationship continued until 1981 when Terry ran up an expensive bill that his family couldn't pay and the phone was cut off. Terry saw Michael again in 1983 and though they took pictures together, he said Michael acted "coldly" to him and Terry couldn't understand why Michael was cold to him. Terry would later say Michael called him in 2005 to apologize for what he had done to him years before.

4.) Sean Lennon [[b. 1975) [[1983-1990): The son of legendary Beatle John Lennon, Michael first met Sean when he was 8. Sean is noted for being one of the first of the Jackson boys to spend time at Jackson's house [[this one being Hayvenhurst) and at Jackson's bed. Sean was also one of the first boys to be seen in public with Michael. Because he was a celebrity kid, no one seemed to mind. Sean was also one of the first boys to sleep in Jackson's bed. Sean later was in Michael's "Moonwalker" movie. While he said MJ never molested him, here is what his friend, future Grammy and Oscar-winning musician Mark Ronson, said about a night with Sean and MJ at MJ's bed in Hayvenhurst:

It’s a weird story, but I didn’t touch him. We [[Sean & Mark) used to watch the porn channel because we were like, 10 and ‘Oh my god [[boobs)!’ So Michael was in bed. And me and Sean said,’Michael, do you want to see something cool?’ We turned the dial to the porn channel and there were strippers shaking their [[boobs) around. We were like, ‘Michael, Michael, how cool is this?’ We turned around and he was cringing, saying,’Ooh stop it,stop it,ohh, it’s so silly.’ We were like,’Michael, you have to look, maybe your not seeing it right, it’s naked girls!’ He was not down with the program whatsoever! I think he had really strong feminist views on porn.

https://media.giphy.com/media/M62A05WrNTdEA/giphy.gif

Now of course, this story just throws that whole "I'm Peter Pan" thing to question. Peter Pan wouldn't let two 10-year-old boys watch PLAYBOY... WHILE IN THE BED WITH A 27-YEAR-OLD MAN! :confused:

Sean wouldn't be but 14-15 until he began losing contact with Michael. While he's adamant that Michael didn't molest him [[still, 'cause I must stress that to people who may think I'm assuming Michael just molested every boy he was with because I'm not), he released this video and song called "Bubbles Burst". Yeah I'll let you play the video and figure it out yourself:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nxH8Bc0cHok

[[PART ONE FINISHED, PART TWO TO CONTINUE)

[midnightman]

PART TWO:

5.) Jonathan Spence [[b. 1973) [[1983-1989): Michael first met Jonathan Spence in 1978 when he was just 5 when he was classmates with Michael's nephew Taj Jackson. Five years later, Michael and Jonathan's friendship got much closer. Michael started bringing Jonathan around him in public in 1984. Jonathan could be probably be regarded as the first "special friend" after Sean Lennon. By that, I mean, Jonathan was the first one the public saw taking a boy out to amusement parks and other events. When Michael was shooting Captain EO in 1985, 12-year-old Spence was his closest companion. There are pics of him and Jonathan on set, including a few where Michael and Spence are holding hands. Again, this is a 27-year-old man having a much younger boy as his companion. He was called a "family friend" but why was he allowed to be with a grown man??? Like Lennon, Spence also spent a lot of time at MJ's bed. According to workers at Hayvenhurst, whenever Spence was around, he would never talk to them, just Michael. Michael would pet his hair and hug him and kiss his head a lot [[this is according to witnesses). Spence would call MJ "daddy". There are photos that show Spence sitting on MJ's LAP. Again, how is this innocent?! I ask you guys who are still defending the lies the Jackson side has told.

Bu-bu-but wait, it gets worse!

Blanca Francia, one of the maids at Hayvenhurst, and later at Neverland, claimed she would clean MJ's bedroom and would see Spence's underwear on the floor. She also observed Michael and Spence taking many Jacuzzis together. According to a former personal assistant of Jackson, Spence would "spend at least two nights a week sleeping in Jackson's bed at the age of 12". She said that while she would call Spence's mother Marion to arrange the sleepover, Michael would often call her himself. Spence was still around Jackson as late as 1988-89. During that era, where MJ moved to his new home, Neverland, he gave Spence a Mustang when he was 15-16 years old. Marion Spence would say that Michael invited Jonathan to visit Neverland with his family at least "half a dozen times". At around the same time, he was permanently replaced as Jackson's "special friend" by the boy who would become his accuser, 10-year-old Jimmy Safechuck. After 1989, Jonathan was rebuffed from returning to Neverland.

In 1993, a raid on Michael's Hayvenhurst mansion uncovered a nude picture of a boy who was believed to be Jonathan Spence. One of his Hayvenhurst guards was called in to "destroy a picture of a nude young boy". He apparently took a lie detector test on Maury Povich's talk show and passed the test that he found the picture but lied when he said he was told to destroy it [[as he claimed Michael told him). The picture of the boy reported to be Spence almost made its way to Jackson's 2005 trial but was rebuffed by the singer's defense team. Later in 1997, Spence married at Neverland but MJ was overseas at the time. Despite his early defense of MJ in the 1990s, he never testified on MJ's behalf in 2005 and has not been seen since the early '90s.

6.) Emmanuel Lewis [[b. 1971) [[1983-1993): Now for many of us, Emmanuel Lewis might've been the first big time celebrity kid [[Lennon was just a celebrity's son) that was seen hanging out with Michael. They first met on the set of Michael's Thriller music video. They quickly became friends and after MJ's Pepsi incident, MJ was allowed to spend time at Emmanuel's house to recuperate. MJ brought Emmanuel famously to both the American Music Awards and Grammy Awards with Brooke Shields. Shields told MJ that they had to leave because "people were constantly looking at them, staring at them" and she was deeply uncomfortable with it [[which is quite understandable). MJ also brought Emmanuel with him to the Jacksons press conference where they announced the Victory Tour. Though the family denies it now, allegedly they had issue with Michael spending time with these boys. Michael and Emmanuel spent a lot of time together in 1984, you can google them and see pictures of them hanging around during that time. That year, allegedly, Michael pushed his boundaries when he enter a hotel room with Emmanuel as "father and son". Emmanuel's mother reportedly put a stop to the close bond though their friendship would continue into the mid-1990s. After Jackson was accused in 1993, Emmanuel was never in the same room with Michael again though he constantly tells people he and Michael were still close. Emmanuel of course denies any inappropriate behavior on Michael's part but there are at least a couple pictures of MJ and Emmanuel that would doubt that: one picture infamously showed both MJ and Emmanuel with enlarged baby bottles [[apparently they drank their favorite beverages from them) all while laying on a bed together. Another picture showed Michael and his head security Bill Bray in bed with Emmanuel. Though it looks like they were wrestling, it still looked unsettling especially for someone who has been accused of improper behaviors with young boys, don't you think? Nonetheless, I do believe Emmanuel was not molested by Jackson.

[[PART TWO FINISHED; PART THREE CONTINUED)

[midnightman]

PART THREE:

7.) Jimmy Safechuck [[b. 1978) [[1987-1992): When Jimmy first appeared in a Pepsi commercial starring Michael, Jimmy was not a fan of Michael's. But he admitted being completely starstruck by Jackson. Much like the other boys in Jackson's life, he asked for Jimmy's number and wrote letters to him. Soon Jimmy visited Hayvenhurst and spent time in Michael's bedroom just playing around. MJ would give him $700 and a globe on his and his family's first visit. In turn Michael would also spend time with Safechuck's family at his house [[as we can all see in the documentary).

Michael and Jimmy's relationship intensified in 1988. Early that year, Jackson invited Safechuck and his family to a vacation in Hawaii. Jimmy, who has said no molestation occurred throughout 1987, said he stayed close to his mother and slept with her despite Jackson's pleas to let Jimmy sleep in his room, something his mother reiterated in the documentary. During the trip back to L.A., Michael would tape a conversation between the two that would be played on the documentary. Jimmy later joined Michael on his "Bad" tour in June 1988, where he joined him onstage at the end of the show dancing like Michael and dressing in the same Bad outfit as him. Jimmy would be the first "mini-Michael" and would also dress like Michael offstage. We all know where this goes next: in June 1988, the Bad tour stopped at Paris and it is here where Jimmy claims the sexual abuse began. Michael was 29, Jimmy just 10 years old. This would continue throughout the Bad tour and afterwards. Jimmy was MJ's new "special boy". During the sexual abuse, MJ would tell Jimmy he was "his first". Lots of people saw the odd closeness between the superstar and the little boy but dare not get involved. When Michael took Jimmy to Neverland, he told him that this was "his house". Jimmy would then allege that Michael constantly abused him in every section of the house basically [[if you watch the documentary, he tells you where, too chilling). In 1989, Jimmy said MJ took him to a Zales jewelry store in Simi Valley [[Jimmy's hometown) and bought a wedding ring. That ring has remained in Safechuck's possession. It was the ring that Jimmy said Michael conducted a "mock wedding ceremony". MJ called Safechuck "Rubba". Michael also would get angry if Safechuck opened up about being attracted to women, once showing him pictures of singer Sheryl Crow without her makeup [[Crow sung background on MJ's Bad tour).

The sexual abuse began to subside in 1990, when Jimmy was 12 [[this is when Wade Robson comes in) and by 14, Jimmy realized he was no longer Michael's "special friend". Jimmy would still be invited by Michael to events but cried when he would be set aside for another friend. Michael noticed this and would angrily send him home. According to two Neverland cooks, they had prepared a special dinner for Jimmy when he was coming over but when Jimmy showed up, Michael told the cooks to tell them he wasn't home. When Jimmy left, Michael snickered and giggled. Such a friend, huh!? On occasion when Jimmy was 12-13, he said that MJ would bring him to his "Hideout" condo and give him wine and have him watch porn videos. He also said MJ's "sexual interactions" got more dirty. I'm not gonna add more but if you watched the documentary when he mentions it, you'll know exactly what I'm talking about. Jimmy would be called by Michael in 1993 when MJ was first accused of sexual abuse. Jimmy, who hadn't had much talk with Michael for over a year, said he was elated to get back in contact with his old friend. Jimmy eventually police at the time that he wasn't abused by Michael. Following Michael's settlement with another boy, Michael put a down payment on a new house for the Safechucks to live in.

In 1994, Jackson invited 16-year-old James to spend time with him in Budapest where Michael shot a promotional trailer for his HIStory album [[all while he was married to Lisa Marie). Jimmy stayed with Michael in 1995 and worked on Jackson's video for "Earth Song". This would be the last physical contact between the 37-year-old Jackson and the 17-year-old Safechuck. In 2005, Michael contacted Jimmy again and asked him to testify on his behalf in the criminal trial against him. Jimmy told the almost 27-year-old that he wanted to help Jimmy out with directing music videos before asking him to testify. When Jimmy said no to testifying, Michael got angry and threatened him, saying he would get him for perjury charges from what he told cops in 1993. Prior to this, Jimmy had told his mother that Michael was a "bad man". Though he didn't fully explain it at the time, Stephanie Safechuck was convinced that Michael had molested her son. Jimmy later sued the Jackson estate in 2014. His case was thrown out due to statute of limitations.

8.) Jason Francia [[b. 1980) [[1987-1990): Blanca Francia's youngest son wasn't safe from MJ either. During the years MJ spent at both Hayvenhurst and Neverland as well as the Hideout, Michael and Jason spent time together. Jason would later tell police in 1993 and at Jackson's 2005 trial that while playing "tickling games", MJ would fondle Jason's privates between ages 7 and 10, paying him every time for every incident of sexual assault. Jackson paid Blanca $2 million in hush money not to reveal what went on between him and Jason. But in 1993, 13-year-old Jason broke the agreement. Jason was the only other man from the "past incidents" that testified against MJ at his trial.

[[PART THREE FINISHED; PART FOUR TO CONTINUE)

[midnightman]

PART FOUR:

9.) Wade Robson [[b. 1982) [[1990-1997): Jackson first met 5-year-old Wade Robson in Australia after Robson won a dance contest that was hosted by MJ's label CBS Records. When the Bad tour hit Brisbane that fall, Robson went onstage with Jackson and became a local star. Robson and Jackson had no contact afterwards, but then in early 1990, Jackson invited Robson, now 7, and his family to Neverland for the weekend. His story was probably one of the most harrowing of the boys. During the first night he slept in Michael's bed, Wade's sister Chantal, just 10, joined them. On the second night, however, Wade slept with Michael alone. When Wade's family left for a vacation, they left their 7-year-old son with Michael for a week. Wade would say within the first or second night they were alone together, MJ slowly began initiating sexual abuse, first touching him, hugging him and kissing him "like a father would". Then it went to more sexual contact. Wade would say during the sexual abuse that Michael told him "God brought us together. We love each other and this is how we show each other love". MJ constantly molested Wade throughout and sometimes when the Robson family would return to Los Angeles, Michael would call Joy Robson [[Wade's mom) and tell him to bring Wade to his homes. Michael first called Wade "Applehead" and then "Little One". He and MJ would send faxes to each other and MJ once gave him a video tape birthday message to celebrate his 8th birthday later in 1990. Wade would say later that MJ would tell him if he told anyone what MJ had done to him, "I'll go to jail and you'll go to jail too and our careers would be over." [[something he repeated almost verbatim before the 2005 trial) In 1991, Wade, Chantal and Joy Robson left Australia and moved to a home MJ had gave them in Los Angeles. It was also there that Wade was told he was gonna be the main boy in the music video to "Black or White". However, by the time the video began filming, Wade learned he had been replaced by Macaulay Culkin. Still, Robson would be seen in the video dancing. Robson also was in the video to "Jam". Like Jimmy, Wade saw himself being replaced by 9-year-old Brett Barnes. Wade said later that Michael would have the boys compete for his attention.

Little contact was made between Wade and Michael in 1993 until the molestation allegations hit. Wade, Joy and Chantal were contacted by Michael to tell police that nothing happened, which they agreed to, just to get back in contact with Michael. Wade also told the press the same thing. If you watch the playback in the documentary, you get the sense that the 11-year-old Robson had obviously been coached and coached well. By 1994, Robson had returned to sleeping with Michael where they continued sexual contact [[yes, all while Michael was married to Lisa!). In 1997, while Michael was on the HIStory tour, he said MJ molested him one more time, this reportedly involved penetration. Later MJ called Wade and asked him to remove his underwear if there was evidence of blood, which he did. Obviously there is more I can't say on here if you have watched the documentary. But obviously the man was abused.

Here's how I know Wade testifying on MJ's behalf wasn't because he necessarily wanted to: in 2005, MJ constantly called Wade to testify on his behalf. WADE INITIALLY DIDN'T WANT TO TESTIFY. In fact, it had to take Michael giving him a subpoena to testify. I'm gonna say that again: MICHAEL JACKSON GAVE HIM A SUBPOENA TO TESTIFY. In other words: Wade Robson had NO CHOICE but to do as he was told! Does that sound like anyone who was "eager" to testify? He wasn't. But he did it because he still loved Michael and couldn't imagine Michael going to jail and Michael not being around his children. He was "the strongest witness" in the defense and helped MJ get acquitted. Wade's last contact with Michael was in 2008. 50-year-old Michael asked his former 26-year-old friend for wine. When he brought the wine over, he saw MJ kept guzzling in the wine over and over and over. Then he went upstairs and never came back downstairs. When he asked Michael's children to check on him. One of them said "he's always like this". :confused: Now people ask why did he sue Jackson's estate after first accusing MJ of sexual abuse in 2013? Well for one, he had at least two mental breakdowns after getting a job as a film director [[he also contributed to at least one MJ musical). After the second breakdown, he stopped working on these projects and quit dancing and choreographing [[which had been his life since he later choreographed singers such as Justin Timberlake, Britney Spears and others).

Another thing people ask "well if MJ was molesting Wade all this time, why did MJ's niece say she was with him?" Well ask Brandi how come she hasn't provided proof besides an L.A. Gear photo with her, Wade and Michael in 1990? How come she say they began having a relationship at 12 and spending time at JACKIE JACKSON'S HOUSE?! Why would Jackie allow his 12-year-old daughter to spend time with a 12-year-old boy unsupervised? Does that make any sense to y'all? I know y'all wanna believe in the Jacksons but ASK QUESTIONS. Something tells me Brandi Jackson is LYING. Also would it have made any difference? Michael and Wade didn't spend every time together obviously and by 1994-95, Wade had already stopped being a "special friend" anyway!

Also, Wade met his soon-to-be-wife in 2001-2002 when he was 19-20. By then, he would've been in and OUT of a brief relationship with Britney during the drama with Justin. Does that make any sense to y'all? I know y'all wanna believe in the Jacksons but ASK QUESTIONS. Something tells me Brandi Jackson is LYING. Also would it have made any difference? Michael and Wade didn't spend every time together obviously and by 1994-95, Wade had already stopped being a "special friend" anyway! So this is nothing but hot water, not tea.

Anyway MOVING ON [[can you believe I haven't mentioned his first accuser yet?).

10.) Brett Barnes [[b. 1982) [[1991-1994): MJ also met Brett Barnes, then 5, in Australia. Like Wade, he also danced like MJ and dressed like him. MJ met him there in Melbourne and they exchanged phone contact for the next several years. In 1991, Brett was invited to Neverland with his family. It was from there that the 32/33-year-old Jackson and the 9-year-old Barnes' relationship took off and he became a VERY special friend. Brett was the only boy to tour with Jackson during the 1992 leg of his Dangerous world tour. He was one of the first of the Jackson boys to be introduced as his "cousin" and since Barnes appeared to share some black DNA, the media bought into it. Though it's impossible for the Australian-born Barnes to be related to a man whose roots originated in Gary, Indiana. Brett remained with him in 1993 even as Michael would start to be more accompanied by the boy who would bring Jackson's throne down [[I'll get to him, don't worry). According to Brett and his sister at Michael's 2005 trial, they eventually admit that Brett and Michael had ONE-ON-ONE SLEEPOVERS QUITE A LOT. Brett's sister eventually agreed with a prosecutor during a cross examination that her brother and MJ spent more than a year and a half sleeping together alone [[in hers and Brett's accounts, more than 465 days).

But according to Neverland witnesses and Jackson's first accuser, Brett meant something more: according to one witness, he would see Michael and Brett engage sexually and Jackson carrying Brett on top of him after a shower. Another caught MJ appearing to be sweaty asking for Vaseline and had to immediately run out. Another saw the two kissing with Jackson grabbing his butt. According to the first accuser, the one and only Jordan Chandler, he would often compare him to Brett Barnes, saying Brett did more sexual stuff than Jordan did with him because he refused to do certain things with Michael.

After the first molestation allegations, Brett was interviewed by police and the media and denied sexual abuse [[which he still denies to this day...). Brett and Wade Robson were the first to admit to the world that they SHARED A BED WITH MICHAEL. Before 1993, no one knew any of this! Of course Brett said the two were often sleeping on different sides "far apart". After Jordan Chandler accused him, Michael sent for Brett to be with him on the latter portions of his 1993 leg of the Dangerous tour. However, Brett found out he had to compete with two boys Michael brought from the United States: 13-year-old Frank Cascio and 11-year-old Eddie Cascio. Brett stayed with the trio until Michael ended his tour abruptly to stop his drug addiction. Michael then began spending more time with the Cascio boys and by 1994-95, Brett was out of the picture, despite his claims he continued to visit Neverland until he was roughly 19. In Jackson's 2005 trial, when he testified, Brett admitted being bad with years. He also claimed he still slept with Jackson in his bed until 19-20 years old [[2001-02). Weird? Yes. Brett hasn't been seen publicly since the trial in 2005.

[[PART FOUR FINISHED; PART FIVE TO CONTINUE)

[midnightman]

PART FIVE:

11.) Macaulay Culkin [[1991-1994): The eleventh boy is the Culkin kid. I could name Corey Feldman but I'll put him in a different category of boys MJ got in contact with in a sec. Anyway, MJ reportedly first met Macaulay in 1990 when Macaulay was in the musical for the Nutcracker. After seeing Macaulay in Home Alone, Michael, according to Culkin, "called him out of the blue" and wanted to meet him at Neverland, to which Culkin, 10, agreed. Reportedly when the day came for Culkin to arrive, Jackson got "excited like a boyfriend ready to see his girlfriend on a date". He also reportedly told staff after seeing HA, "look at his lips, I love the pouty smile!" Again, weird language from someone who was "just a kid at heart"! Either way, Michael got close to Macaulay and he also got somewhat close to Mac's brother Kieran. Though Culkin's entire family visited, the Culkin sisters didn't sleep much in Michael's bed [[similar to sisters of other "special friends"). Ironically enough, years later, Michael would admit to Martin Bashir that he and Macaulay slept in bed together adding Kieran in the mix as if that was a normal explanation. Funny for a guy who said he only "slept in the floor" while giving another boy his bed, he admits to sleeping in the bed with children! Macaulay admitted this at the 2005 trial and also admitted something else that should be startling to the truthers in the board: Macaulay testified that Michael's hallway to his bedroom would start to make ding dong chime noises as if someone was coming to the door of the bedroom. Earlier, he had said the bedroom was an "open policy". So WHY would it need a ding dong warning chime if it was an open policy??? It might've been open for HIM and kids like him but not anyone else. Macaulay also admitted to sleeping alone with Michael on many occasions. Michael and Macaulay, like other of his celebrity kid friends, were seen in public places a lot during 1991-92. Sometime in '91, before Dangerous was released, Michael and Macaulay had a vacation to Bermuda. While Mac's family traveled along, Michael spent most of that time with Mac ALONE. Macaulay became the boy lead in "Black or White", a role that was originally given to Wade Robson. Due to Macaulay's workload, he couldn't go to MJ's tour so Brett Barnes became his only accompanied boy. But Michael and Mac were still close enough by 1993. By 1994, however, 14-year-old Culkin had stopped coming frequently to the Ranch. He claims he had stopped it because the native New Yorker [[pun intended if you remember the song "Native New Yorker") didn't feel the need to travel to California. They reestablished contact by 1997 though, according to Culkin. Culkin also attended MJ's 30th anniversary concerts at Madison Square Garden in 2001 and cameramen flashed to see a 43-year-old Jackson and a 21-year-old Culkin engage in a deep conversation between shows. Macaulay would be called the second strongest witness in the 2005 trial. But he also was alleged to have been abused by Michael on several occasions, to which Culkin denies to this day. Culkin was one of the few boys to attend Jackson's private funeral in September 2009, three months after Jackson's death.

12.) Jordan Chandler [[1992-1993): Like most boys, Jordan met Michael as a tyke, just five years old. But by May 1992, the two would get in contact again after Jackson's car broke down in Los Angeles. Michael was taken to a Rent-a-Wreck shop where Dave Schwartz and June Chandler gladly got Michael on the phone with Jordan. From there, the relationship went like with other boys: phone conversations. It wasn't until February 1993 that the 34-year-old Jackson and the 13-year-old Chandler began hanging out. At first they spent time at Neverland playing all the rides together and jet skiing. They also took off on golf cart rides. During his third weekend at Neverland with his parents, Jordan asked his mother if he could sleep with Michael since other boys slept there, June refused and he stayed with his family at a guest unit.

In late February 1993, they took a trip to the Mirage Hotel in Las Vegas. It was there that Michael and Jordan first slept in bed together. Jordan claimed MJ had got Jordan to watch the movie, The Exorcist. The film scared Jordan so bad when Michael asked if he wanted to sleep with him, he agreed. The next morning, June asked Jordan where he was after coming out of Michael's room. When Jordan said he had slept in Michael's bed, June told him "no more sleeping with Michael". Later that night, an emotional Michael confronted June in tears saying "don't you trust me? We're family." Feeling guilty, June finally allowed Jordan to sleep with Michael "if he wanted to". Jordan said from then on, he and Michael slept together. Like some other of his friends, Michael also spent time at Jordan's house in Brentwood. Though the family gave him a spare room, Michael always slept in Jordan's room in Jordan's bed. Michael reportedly spent a WHOLE FULL MONTH at the house, which would've been probably April of 1993. Jordan said the sexual abuse had begin to start there, with MJ simply touching him, hugging him and kissing him on his forehead, eventually getting to kiss Jordan in the lips [[Brett Barnes also admitted that Michael kissed him but said he kissed "like a grandma would"). Chandler also claimed Jackson would begin kissing Jordan's ear and tongue kissing him; when Chandler protested this, Jackson would again cry and say that other boys had done it [[including Brett) and if he loved him, he'd do it basically. Chandler said he and Jackson would rub their bodies on top of the other [[Jordan then was nicknamed "Rubba" after that). In May of 1993, Jackson took Jordan, June and JC's half-sister Lilly to the World Music Awards in Monaco. In front of cameras, Jackson was seen with Jordan sometimes on his LAP! [[Google "Michael Jackson World Music Awards" and the clip should be available!) It was at a hotel suite there that Jordan said MJ started to teach him how to masturbate and allegedly performed oral sex on him. Jordan would say he had special names for sexual activity: semen was "duck better", "lights" meant an erection. They also engaged in mutual masturbation. Jordan would also claim to authorities that MJ said other boys had masturbated in front of him including Wade, Jimmy, Brett, and Macaulay. Jordan would claim that Jackson performed oral sex on him at every place they were at: Neverland, the Chandler house in Brentwood, the Hideout and his mother's house. Jackson and Chandler slept together for more than 70 nights throughout 1993. In June 1993, Evan Chandler, Jordan's dad, began asking questions about his son's relationship with Michael.

By July of 1993, Evan finally got time to be alone with Jordan. Jordan complained of issues with his tooth so Evan, a doctor [[and local screenwriter) helped him with his tooth. After giving him anesthesia, Evan began asking Jordan if Michael Jackson had touched his private parts. After several minutes hesitating, Jordan, with tears in his eyes, after Evan promised him he wouldn't hurt Michael, said "yes". Evan then hugged his son. Jordan then told his stories to both a psychiatrist and police. During these alleged times of molestation, Michael often gave June expensive gifts. After failure on Jackson's part to reach some deal between him and Evan, the Chandler family went public with their accusations and on August 17, just days before Michael's 35th birthday, a stunned world read the news that the King of Pop was "being criminally investigated for child sexual abuse". Michael reportedly went into panic mode and struggled with drug dependency and suicidal tendencies. He reportedly trashed a hotel room in Europe as well. In September, the Chandlers filed a civil suit. In November, Michael ended his Dangerous tour and went to rehab in Switzerland on behalf of Elizabeth Taylor. In December, Santa Barbara and Los Angeles police served a search warrant on Jackson's person. There, he was forced to strip naked to reveal any markings on his body that was brought up by Jordan, who reportedly drew a picture of Jackson's privates [[despite what y'all may have heard and seen, Jordan's actual drawing remains sealed and locked in a folder at the Santa Barbara Police Department). One picture had Jackson lift his penis as if it was in an aroused state, when detectives began to investigate if Jordan's description matched, cops came away believing they did match. Prior to this, Jackson and his team tried to file extortion charges against Evan Chandler, claiming Jackson was part of an "extortion plot". However, in January 1994, the extortion charges were dropped. That same month, 14-year-old Jordan Chandler agreed to settle out of court with Michael and the settlement, signed by Michael, was for $25 million: $5 million to the Chandler lawyers, $2 million each to June and Evan Chandler, and $18 million to the boy himself. All before Jackson was forced to testify in a grand jury, which he pleaded the fifth. In the settlement, WHICH HE SIGNED, Michael settled out of "sexual negligence". Does that sound like an innocent man forced to settle by his insurance company? NO. Insurance companies DON'T settle. Eventually, the Chandlers, now scared to leave their house after getting attacked at reportedly by Jackson fans, they decided to not pursue a criminal case. With the settlement, they agreed not to cooperate any longer with police. Again a settlement is HUSH MONEY AND GUILT. Because of this settlement, Jordan couldn't talk about the case, but Michael apparently didn't get the message: in 1995, he talked about parts of the case to Diane Sawyer, which led to the Chandler family suing him. Eventually Jackson and Chandler settled out of court.

[[PART FIVE FINISHED; PART SIX CONTINUED)

[midnightman]

PART SIX:


13.) Frank Cascio [[b. 1980) [[1993-2004): Unlike most boys Michael befriended, Frank Cascio was a rarity, a mainstay. And he knew him longer than '93. According to his book, "My Friend Michael", Frank first met 25-year-old Michael as a 4-year-old. Frank had no idea who Michael Jackson was but they became friends no less. Michael also knew his father Dominic well. By the mid-80s, Michael would travel to New Jersey to visit his friend and his family, which eventually included four other boys and a girl. It wouldn't be until 1993, however, that 13-year-old Frank began spending more time at Jackson's Neverland ranch where they also hung with Jordan Chandler. Eddie Cascio, Frank's brother, often tagged along as well. After Michael was first investigated for child abuse charges, Frank and Eddie traveled with him throughout the Dangerous world tour, which raised suspicion with authorities. The Cascio parents however defended MJ.

By 1994, Frank and Eddie accompanied Michael's time as did, occasionally, Wade Robson. And the Cascio boys remained with him when Michael released the HIStory album. By 1996, Frank and Eddie, along with another brother, Dominic, traveled with Michael but Frank, now 16, became the closest of the Cascio boys to be with Michael. This closeness carried on as Frank became a young adult. In 1999, when Frank was 19, Michael hired Frank to work in his team. Frank eventually helped to organize Michael's 30th anniversary concerts at Madison Square Garden. But Frank also saw different sides to Michael as he became an adult, he realized that Michael had a serious dependency on prescription drugs and he also began drinking wine, "or Jesus Juice" heavily. He admits to all of this in his book, "My Friend Michael". He also admits to sleeping in bed "hundreds of times" with Michael and sharing a Jacuzzi with him [[though he claims they were clothed???). Again, why do this with a TEENAGE BOY??? Frank also admitted there were times Michael "didn't trust him" if he started telling people of his drug issues and they would have "screaming matches" that ended with them apologizing and sleeping in the same bed when Frank was a young adult.

In 2003, Frank was there when MJ was accused of sexual molestation a second time and criminally charged. Frank last saw Michael at Neverland in January 2004. When MJ heard Frank was skeptical of testifying at the trial, Michael berated him and accused him of "betraying" him. Frank decided to move on from Michael, saying his heart broke over his friend questioning his loyalty to him. Frank was never invited to see him when MJ visited the Cascios. In 2007, they had one final meeting where Michael and Frank apologized to each other and made plans to be together on Michael's final tour of London in 2009 when Frank received news that Michael had died. Though he has consistently denied that Michael sexually abused him as a child, he has remained silent during the airing of Leaving Neverland.

14.) Anton S. [[b. 1983) [[1995-2006): Another mainstay, German Anton S. first met Michael when he was 12 while Michael visited an amusement park in Germany. Michael and Anton spent a lot of time together with Michael even sleeping at Anton's house in Anton's bed. During the HIStory tour, Anton sometimes shared MJ's bedroom at hotel suites. In 1997, he spent three weeks with Anton by himself. That time with Anton inspired him to write the romantic song "Speechless". Michael would claimed he was inspired by a water balloon fight with Anton [[though he phrased it as "these kids") and that he ran upstairs "in their house" to write it. A song that starts off as your love is magical, that's how I feel but I've not yet found the words to explain as written to some KID should be getting your antennas up! Jackson continued to visit Anton until 2006 when the young man was 22-23. Anton also spent time with Michael at Neverland and the two stayed in contact after Michael left the ranch in 2003. Anton was with Michael when he moved to Bahrain in 2005 and later returned to Germany. In 2006, the media flashed 47-year-old Michael and his 23-year-old friend Anton in Germany. Later in June, Anton was again spotted near Michael. He was described by some in the media as his "20-year-old protege". After 2006, they lost contact. Anton has never confirmed NOR DENY that he was molested during his childhood years as Michael's "special friend".

15.) Michael Jacobshagen [[b. 1983) [[1995-1998): Another German boy Michael became friends with, Jacobshagen traveled with Michael throughout the HIStory tour along with Anton and Omer Bhatti. In January of this year, Jacobshagen admitted that Michael was sexually aggressive towards him when he was fourteen. He said MJ would touch all over him and rub his body on top of his in the bed, he also said when MJ would be medicated, the touches became "more aggressive". Jacobshagen also said MJ stripped in front of him before they got in a Jacuzzi and told him if he wanted to get naked, it was okay, Jacobshagen refused. Jacobshagen said he felt Michael was trying to test him to see how far he could go. Jacobshagen also sent him letters calling him his "little Rubba Rubba friend" and sent him a copy of a nude book titled "The Boy" which featured underage boys naked writing inscriptions for him. In the Australian program, Sunday Night on 7, it would be discovered that Jackson had actually circled on several of boys' body parts inside the book[[!). "The Boy" was found in Michael's possession after a 1993 raid of Neverland, along with another underage boy book, "Boys Will Be Boys", which was said to be more explicit. Shockingly, both books are still "legal" to own though BWBB seems suspicious.

16.) Omer Bhatti [[b. 1985) [[1996-2009): Another Frank Cascio. However unlike Frank, this one would be there until the end. Omer first met Michael in 1996 when he was 11. The Norwegian boy got Jackson's attention the same way Brett Barnes and Wade Robson got his: by dancing, and like Wade, he danced on TV impersonating Michael. During a stop in Norway on his tour, Michael met him at a hotel suite and soon had the boy travel with him on his HIStory tour. According to reports, Omer was Michael's "best man" at his "wedding" to Debbie Rowe in October 1996. Shortly afterwards, Omer traveled with Michael - ALONE - to Neverland. Because he knew the media would be suspicious about another boy accompanying him [[as Chris Rock would say, ANOTHER KID?!), Michael gave Omer the assumed name of "Michael Joseph Winter". He also would claim to both Frank Cascio and members of his family that Omer was his "son". Inexplicably, the Jackson family BOUGHT INTO THIS LIE! You would see certain members, including, shockingly enough Joe Jackson, saying that Omer was his son. Which would be odd since if that was the case, WHY WASN'T OMER ON THE WILL? Simple: because he wasn't HIS SON! He already had a biological father and mother. Despite this, Omer also called Michael "daddy" at times. Frank Cascio knew better but the Jackson family didn't? Yikes.

Anyway, Omer would be present for the births of Michael's three children and, like Frank and Anton, took turns raising the children with Michael. Omer slept in Michael's bed numerous times throughout the years even into adulthood. At times, Omer would live separate lives: the life with his family in Norway and the life with MJ in California at Neverland. Omer would remain MJ's constant companion until a few weeks before Michael's death on June 25, 2009. At Michael's memorial service at the Staples Center, Omer was seated next to Michael's children PER THE FAMILY REQUEST!!!

Omer said something suspicious when asked about MJ's inappropriate behavior with kids and what they did together: I don't wish to say too much about it, but I will say Michael in many ways was very innocent. But you can't expect everybody to have the same view on everything... to him certain things were natural and completely innocent, things that not necessarily all people would view the same way

https://media1.tenor.com/images/dc093cec2e9840a41a514440c38efb9e/tenor.gif?itemid=10721560

You tell me if that statement makes sense to you... don't worry I'll wait...

[[PART SIX FINISHED; PART SEVEN TO COMPLETE)

[midnightman]

AND NOW...FOR THE FINISH:

And these were the MAIN ones but there were a few others he spent time with:
1.) Alfonso Ribeiro [[b. 1972) [[1984-86)
2.) Corey Feldman [[b. 1971) [[1984-89): admitted to sleeping over at Michael's bed; claims no molestation, but said MJ showed him a book of nude adults and said if MJ showed it to his kid, he'd "punched him".
3.) Damien Stein [[b. 1979) [[1988-92): initially phone calls and letters but soon Michael would send Damien to be with him at the Hideout and Neverland; Michael then visited Damien's home in California where he shared a bed with him. This would be when Damien's father taped conversations Michael would have with Damien's mother Glenda, i.e., the Glenda Tapes that are on YouTube right now. Damien said he lost contact with Michael around 1992.
4.) Mark Ronson [[b. 1975) [[1985-87): the future Grammy winner who admitted sleeping in Michael's bed at Hayvenhurst.
5.) Kieran Culkin [[b. 1982) [[1990-92): also slept with Michael with brother Mac. Has never talked about his relationship with Michael as far as I know.
6.) BJ Novak [[b. 1979) [[1992): Michael once came to a restaurant he was at in Massachusetts while with Deepak Chopra and MJ sat next to BJ at the "kids table" trying to impress them.
7.) Aaron Carter [[b. 1987) [[2001-2004): Aaron would claim when he was 15 that MJ gave him wine and caught him trying to sleep in his bed. Of course Aaron now denies he ever said that but Aaron is a really messed up fool so I'll leave it at that!

Then there are just moments of straight up weirdness and inappropriateness with kids in GENERAL:

1.) Lisa Marie Presley [[his first wife) - he met her in 1975 when she was 7 and he was 16. Claimed he saw "something special in her eyes". Once invited her and Priscilla to Hayvenhurst in 1984. Priscilla showed up alone. When MJ wondered where Lisa was, Priscilla was adamant about bringing a 16-year-old girl with her.
2.) Tatum O'Neal - claimed they started dating in 1977 when he was 19 and she was...13/14. Again, why is a grown man admitting to this. He also claimed Tatum tried to seduce him one night at the same age. This prompted Tatum to deny she ever did this and she wrote about it in her book.
3.) Soleil Moon Frye - in 2011, the former Punky Brewster told "Today" that when she was 8, she spent time at a Jacuzzi with a 25-year-old Jackson talking about "life". :confused:

----
Now this may take y'all time to read but once you get done with it, you go and try to tell me that Michael Jackson was this innocent that got railroaded. Time to stop thinking the Michael Jackson who sang "I Want You Back" and "ABC-123" was the Michael we all know and love. The real Michael Jackson was obviously a different character and not one to be seen as a hero but as a flawed man who obviously went over boundaries he shouldn't have with innocent children. PERIOD!

https://media.giphy.com/media/1NLE06PXA9TIA/giphy.gif

[midnightman]

Jimmy Safechuck claimed that in 1989, Michael and him went to a Zales jewelry store to buy a wedding ring, the same ring MJ gave Jimmy to wear. He also said MJ wore a disguise as not to be seen. Well whadaya know, there's MJ and Jimmy:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3DyN8Jvnz4

[midnightman]

Another video of the Zales episode on Entertainment Tonight:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RV7-HDO5zb0

Check the ending, MJ's PR had him posting stories that he was in a "serious romance" with Sheryl Crow. Truth was he hardly talked to his band mates, much less Sheryl Crow. JIMMY however [[who is seen in the store leaving with Michael with his mullet hairdo hiding under his cap) was attracted to her.

[scanspeak]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6pnoQqlygQs

[scanspeak]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9yTTEwBLfUQ

[Bluebrock]

You have not let it go cause your still carping on about it and you have NO idea what Michael diod with those boys as you werent in the room and neither should have Michael Jackson been sharing a bed with underage boys. Its wrong wrong wrong and the parents are just as bad as Jackson.
Preach Roberta preach! He insists Michael Jackson is innocent because he wants to believe Michael Jackson is innocent. None of us know what really went on in those bedrooms, but you are 100% spot on when you say that the parents have a lot to answer for in this sordid situation. The whole damned thing fills me with disgust. If Jackson is guilty he will rot in hell. I am happy to let God dish out justice.

[cornybside]

I ended up watching the four hour documentary and after show with Oprah. It is indeed some powerful stuff. I cannot deny that some lines have been crossed, whether or not everything happened exactly as they say it did. For instance, I have a hard time believing that MJ would have told anyone that, "I am going to form public relationships with women and eventually get married...but it does not mean anything. I need to do it for my image." This is what James states in the documentary. At the end of the day, there were definitely some lines crossed and perhaps some money involved, motivating these people to come forward, regardless of what anyone says about that. As a fan, it is not that important for me to be factually right or wrong on all of this, so I will not continue to go to lengths to copy and paste absurdly long posts from questionable blogs on the subject. For me, having also been a victim of childhood abuse and trauma, I can feel for these guys, and if they are telling the truth [[and I believe a lot of it is true), I feel sorry for them, and if they are lying, I also feel sorry for them. Having also walked this difficult path myself, I have been able to mostly move on and forgive. I hope they can also come to this resolution, as well as the fans and general public. The intense emotional response from everyone here is warranted, because this is a heavy and serious subject. I can respect if some people want to stop listening to Michael's music. I doubt that will be the case for me, only time will tell. In time, I hope more people come forward to solidify this story, as I agree with Roger Friedman, who reviewed this doc, and said there are a lot of moving parts here.

Michael has no one to blame for himself, if his legacy ends up being tarnished. Perhaps the greater good in all of this is that our society can be more informed and aware of the risks and dangers, as well as recognizing and healing from abuse.

[midnightman]

The links ain't convincing anyone. Read my posts and...

https://media.giphy.com/media/igR5863TALcSk/giphy.gif

[Roberta75]

The links ain't convincing anyone. Read my posts and...

https://media.giphy.com/media/igR5863TALcSk/giphy.gif

Your links and unbiased views are real appreciated Midnightman. Thanks

[Roberta75]

Preach Roberta preach! He insists Michael Jackson is innocent because he wants to believe Michael Jackson is innocent. None of us know what really went on in those bedrooms, but you are 100% spot on when you say that the parents have a lot to answer for in this sordid situation. The whole damned thing fills me with disgust. If Jackson is guilty he will rot in hell. I am happy to let God dish out justice.

Perfectly said my dear friend. And the Lord will dish it out if its needed. xx

[midnightman]

Your links and unbiased views are real appreciated Midnightman. Thanks

Thanks Roberta. :)

[midnightman]

I let it go in 2005 when Michael was found not guilty on 14 counts! It's Wade Robson, Safecheck and that dumb documentary producer that can't seem to let it go! I mean, how can you produce a 4 hour documentary that was all one sided and still not provide any proof?

Show me the receipts! They can't, because there aren't any. Michael Jackson did not molest children.

Yeah I know you probably lurked this morning and saw my posts and you didn't have nothing to say.

https://media0.giphy.com/media/xUA7bb0z9JF4jOsBRS/200.gif?cid=3640f6095c7f277062303454490f36f1

[midnightman]

Once Michael Jackson kept constantly grabbing his dick while on stage , all bets of his sense of decency were off.

Exactly. Mr. "I'm a child at heart" was constantly thrusting his damn crotch and grabbing his penis all the time. He got called out on it after the Black or White video and to keep it in there, he ADDED fake graffiti images of racist slogans to prove his lying point that all he was doing was combating racism by... simulating masturbation, trashing cars and turning himself into a panther...

https://media1.tenor.com/images/169b9eade3ef3015b7ad574b6b2607c7/tenor.gif?itemid=3772499

[jboy88]

Yeah I know you probably lurked this morning and saw my posts and you didn't have nothing to say.

https://media0.giphy.com/media/xUA7bb0z9JF4jOsBRS/200.gif?cid=3640f6095c7f277062303454490f36f1
You haven’t changed my mind! I’m done investing my time and my receipts because there’s no point! You or someone else will nitpick about it. I have better things to do than argue with you and everyone else that brought into that BS documentary!

[PeaceNHarmony]

The mj defenders sound like the djt defenders. 'Ya know - the dood who could shoot someone on 5th Ave and not lose his anti-witch hunt supporters.

[Roberta75]

You haven’t changed my mind! I’m done investing my time and my receipts because there’s no point! You or someone else will nitpick about it. I have better things to do than argue with you and everyone else that brought into that BS documentary!


Well you bought into last week and showed some real pause on MJ guilt or innocene.

[midnightman]

Lol if people don't care, then why they come here posting BS? Because they know not too many people who did some research wasn't gonna buy into it. It's too late to change your feelings now. They proved they DID care. They would let Michael sleep with their sons.

All because he used to be a sangin mf at 10. Weak! Y'all are weak!!! LOL

[jobeterob]

Midnightman, you did an awful lot of research on this; thank you for that. I must say I didn't like what I was reading and I wondered how I could be blind about it at times and how anyone could be blind after reading what you wrote.

About Michael's crotch grabbing etc. - well, when you learn how to masturbate in your 30's, you would tend to really overdo it and he did.

[RanRan79]

I tend to fall on the motto that where there's smoke, there's fire. For years I believed he was guilty because of the settlement. I always said an innocent man wouldn't settle when having this heinous accusation leveled at them. Being older and more "worldly" [[ha!) I do understand that wealthy people pay off accusers of one thing or another all the time when they have the money to cut the check and quickly move on and hopefully get people talking about something else. I get it now just like I understand how people who confess to crimes are not always guilty. So I don't use MJ's payoff[[s?) as a determinate in my opinion regarding his guilt anymore. Dude was a weirdo in so many ways. Why would molesting children be out of the question? I think it may even be likely that he's guilty. But would I bet my life on it? Nope. No one has been able to produce nothing more than hearsay and retroactive memories. I need evidence in order to be placed over the edge. I believe the latest accusers have questionable characters which really makes their words pretty hollow for me. And yeah, I have to question "why now"? They had the opportunity to speak up in 2005 and didn't. Now they do it when the man is dead and can't say "yay" or "nay". There's a grieving family, including MJ's children, who have to deal with the fallout, and for what? No one can hurt Michael now. He's dead. His reputation can't hurt him, his finances can't hurt him, so what's the point? If he is guilty, these two dudes won't be the ones to convince me.

On the flip, touching on a point Midnight was making, if MJ were still some rando from Gary, would the thought by his staunch defenders be any different? My guess is that it would. Michael was human and subject to some of the same problems seen among "regular" folk. Even if the two latest accusers are lying, there's a lot of smoke before them. Something wasn't right.

So am I convinced he was a pedophile? No. Am I convinced that he wasn't? No. And I think it'll be harder to convince me one way or the other because he isn't here to chime in, barring the discovery of irrefutable evidence, like videos and photos. Can I still enjoy his music and artistry knowing that it may even be likely that one of my favs of all time [[up until about 1996...although I enjoyed the Invincible album and thought it a return to the Mike of old, I really viewed this MJ as someone completely different than the MJ of my childhood) was a pedophile? Yes I can because I can usually separate the artist and the art they create, particularly for music. Might this change if something more concrete were to surface? I think so, if at least changing somewhat.

This entire thing is a mess, no matter what side you're on.

[Roberta75]

I tend to fall on the motto that where there's smoke, there's fire. For years I believed he was guilty because of the settlement. I always said an innocent man wouldn't settle when having this heinous accusation leveled at them. Being older and more "worldly" [[ha!) I do understand that wealthy people pay off accusers of one thing or another all the time when they have the money to cut the check and quickly move on and hopefully get people talking about something else. I get it now just like I understand how people who confess to crimes are not always guilty. So I don't use MJ's payoff[[s?) as a determinate in my opinion regarding his guilt anymore. Dude was a weirdo in so many ways. Why would molesting children be out of the question? I think it may even be likely that he's guilty. But would I bet my life on it? Nope. No one has been able to produce nothing more than hearsay and retroactive memories. I need evidence in order to be placed over the edge. I believe the latest accusers have questionable characters which really makes their words pretty hollow for me. And yeah, I have to question "why now"? They had the opportunity to speak up in 2005 and didn't. Now they do it when the man is dead and can't say "yay" or "nay". There's a grieving family, including MJ's children, who have to deal with the fallout, and for what? No one can hurt Michael now. He's dead. His reputation can't hurt him, his finances can't hurt him, so what's the point? If he is guilty, these two dudes won't be the ones to convince me.

On the flip, touching on a point Midnight was making, if MJ were still some rando from Gary, would the thought by his staunch defenders be any different? My guess is that it would. Michael was human and subject to some of the same problems seen among "regular" folk. Even if the two latest accusers are lying, there's a lot of smoke before them. Something wasn't right.

So am I convinced he was a pedophile? No. Am I convinced that he wasn't? No. And I think it'll be harder to convince me one way or the other because he isn't here to chime in, barring the discovery of irrefutable evidence, like videos and photos. Can I still enjoy his music and artistry knowing that it may even be likely that one of my favs of all time [[up until about 1996...although I enjoyed the Invincible album and thought it a return to the Mike of old, I really viewed this MJ as someone completely different than the MJ of my childhood) was a pedophile? Yes I can because I can usually separate the artist and the art they create, particularly for music. Might this change if something more concrete were to surface? I think so, if at least changing somewhat.

This entire thing is a mess, no matter what side you're on.


Very well said RanRan79.

[Bluebrock]

I let it go in 2005 when Michael was found not guilty on 14 counts! It's Wade Robson, Safecheck and that dumb documentary producer that can't seem to let it go! I mean, how can you produce a 4 hour documentary that was all one sided and still not provide any proof?

Show me the receipts! They can't, because there aren't any. Michael Jackson did not molest children.

O.J. Simpson was also found not guilty. Do you think he was innocent too?

[jboy88]

Well you bought into last week and showed some real pause on MJ guilt or innocene.

There’s nothing wrong with giving the other side a chance. No matter how flawed it is!

[Roberta75]

There’s nothing wrong with giving the other side a chance. No matter how flawed it is!

Its only flawed in your opinion just like the blind pro Michael Jacksons fanatics are flawed IMO.

[khansperac]

“As of Monday, the total audience for Part 1 had risen to a healthy 3.7 million, thanks to delayed viewing on television, DVR and the HBO platforms HBO Go and HBO Now, and the second part of “Leaving Neverland” had been watched by 2.5 million viewers.”

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/11/business/media/michael-jackson-music.html

[jobeterob]

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6813643/Paris-Jackson-says-not-role-defend-father-against-new-child-rape-claims.html

[Encyclopedia Mack]

I watched HBO's Leaving Neverland last night. I am still speechless. It was a devestating two hours. I believe the boys. One was 7 years old.

Superstardom is so powerful. Even if one does not believe the boys, the show was an expose on superstardom, and how most of us would do almost anything to get close to these superstars.
Complete lies. I watched that 2 hour documentary. 2 hours of lies. The problem is people will believe anything in social media and do not do research on their own. All we have is 2 people telling their story and we believe that. No proof other than they knew Mike. How many of you all know that the FBI [[who has a 99% conviction rate) found nothing on Mike? [[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JYQnc4Z1M_c [[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JYQnc4Z1M_c)). How many of you all know Wade Robson's own former attorney stated he and James Safechuck were lying about Michael [[https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6769447/Former-attorney-Michael-Jackson-claims-accusers-Wade-Robson-James-Safechuck-lying.html [[https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6769447/Former-attorney-Michael-Jackson-claims-accusers-Wade-Robson-James-Safechuck-lying.html)).This fact was left out of the HBO documentary. I wonder why? How many of youall knew that Wade Robson tried to sue Michael’s estate in 2017? [[https://www.usatoday.com/story/life/people/2017/12/20/michael-jackson-sex-abuse-lawsuit-dismissed/108772406/ [[https://www.usatoday.com/story/life/people/2017/12/20/michael-jackson-sex-abuse-lawsuit-dismissed/108772406/))That was left out of the documentary as well. How convenient. This is all a money scheme. So Wade wanted to share his story so bad but the documentary only comes out after he cannot receive money from Michael’s estate. Please. I come with receipts folks I do not do the back and forth with what I feel. Please use common sense people. But since we’re going here let’s go all the way. How many of you all knew Elvis Presley was living, sleeping with, and giving drugs to Priscilla at age 14. I have receipts on that too [[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y-77j79T0to [[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y-77j79T0to)).Now this interview was over a decade ago. How come they aren’t pulling Elvis’s songs off the radio? You cannot trust these demonic people alive or beyond the grave.

[Encyclopedia Mack]

Complete lies. I watched that 2 hour documentary. 2 hours of lies. The problem is people will believe anything in social media and do not do research on their own. All we have is 2 people telling their story and we believe that. No proof other than they knew Mike. How many of you all know that the FBI [[who has a 99% conviction rate) found nothing on Mike? [[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JYQnc4Z1M_c [[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JYQnc4Z1M_c)). How many of you all know Wade Robson's own former attorney stated he and James Safechuck were lying about Michael [[https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6769447/Former-attorney-Michael-Jackson-claims-accusers-Wade-Robson-James-Safechuck-lying.html [[https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6769447/Former-attorney-Michael-Jackson-claims-accusers-Wade-Robson-James-Safechuck-lying.html)).This fact was left out of the HBO documentary. I wonder why? How many of youall knew that Wade Robson tried to sue Michael’s estate in 2017? [[https://www.usatoday.com/story/life/people/2017/12/20/michael-jackson-sex-abuse-lawsuit-dismissed/108772406/ [[https://www.usatoday.com/story/life/people/2017/12/20/michael-jackson-sex-abuse-lawsuit-dismissed/108772406/))That was left out of the documentary as well. How convenient. This is all a money scheme. So Wade wanted to share his story so bad but the documentary only comes out after he cannot receive money from Michael’s estate. Please. I come with receipts folks I do not do the back and forth with what I feel. Please use common sense people. But since we’re going here let’s go all the way. How many of you all knew Elvis Presley was living, sleeping with, and giving drugs to Priscilla at age 14. I have receipts on that too [[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y-77j79T0to [[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y-77j79T0to)).Now this interview was over a decade ago. How come they aren’t pulling Elvis’s songs off the radio? You cannot trust these demonic people alive or beyond the grave.
Here’s another Aaron Carter says they tried to pay him to lie

https://youtu.be/y8M-sORA6Dc

[jobeterob]

There’s also the long unanswered question of who was having sex with Aretha Franklin when she was 13 to 14 or whatever the age was - very young

[marv2]

Here’s another Aaron Carter says they tried to pay him to lie

https://youtu.be/y8M-sORA6Dc

Emmanuel Lewis was approached at the AMA's one year with someone trying to convince him to lie on Michael.

[Encyclopedia Mack]

Emmanuel Lewis was approached at the AMA's one year with someone trying to convince him to lie on Michael.

These devils are unbelievable.

[marv2]

These devils are unbelievable.

How does the saying go? "When someone shows you who they are.......believe them!"

[Encyclopedia Mack]

How does the saying go? "When someone shows you who they are.......believe them!"

https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=PW7sco5AnyA
Everyone please watch this video. It doesn’t take 2 hours to find receipts.

[scanspeak]

DEBUNKING NEVERLAND: With Taj and Brandi Jacksonhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tsuxaa3qIzE

[Suedehead]

Hello to everyone,
I’m new here, well I use the forum for informations but never write before.
This ‘new MJ case’ really makes me wonder...
I following 2/3 guys on twitter along with others and the stories they tell are very different from the ones you got from traditional media.

https://mobile.twitter.com/cethomson?fbclid=IwAR2sUbhkpOWRFQlGjp7ODVhGYuiiTJZ a-Lu0SZPlKYtMwgbibJm_TRQM02s

https://mobile.twitter.com/mikesmallcombe1

I also heard some interesting interviews John Ziegler did with Brandi Jackson and others.
This also very interesting:
https://whas.iheart.com/featured/terry-meiners/content/2019-03-26-john-ziegler-on-fraudulent-leaving-neverland-documentary/

Those journalists came along with very specific facts and documents that make the ‘fantastic 3’ look likes a bunch of pirates...[[in Neverland)!

So dangerous how many people so easily manipulated and accuse, judge... without doing research.
It’s so hard to get some balanced reports these days?

Ebony magazine reports some of the latest news https://www.ebony.com/entertainment/leaving-neverland-director-admits-timeline-of-alleged-abuse-is-questionable/?fbclid=IwAR34fNPA-3wdJ8JDjNp0NVvmVBl-PufCyCCXa19oev0Lgf5_7kTGhGtWA1o

Another piece by John Ziegler:
https://www.mediaite.com/opinion/why-is-u-s-media-silent-on-the-implosion-of-leaving-neverland-while-the-u-k-press-is-pouncing/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

[Boogiedown]

In the end, does it even matter if anybody actually diddled with each others dingalings ?

There're just certain things you don't do . Taking little children that aren't your own into your bed overnight for snickers is one of them . That Michael Jackson did this is indisputable, and he doesn't get a pass because he was successful or RIP. Creepy is creepy when you finally stop to analyze it.
Look at Joe Biden, Obama's well respected vice-president for eight years. No one wanted to call him out for creepy behavior . But if you have to sneak up behind people , forcibly grip them [[in plain sight so it seems innocent), so you can sniff their hair against their will , you're a creep! Safest rule , in situations like this, if you wouldn't do it to a guy, you probably shouldn't do it to a woman. That's where our sensitivities are these days. We wanted to give good ol' Joe Biden a pass. We wanted to give mega-star Michael Jackson a pass. We're just more aware now about so many things.

[marv2]

The Director of Leaving Neverland admitted yesterday that the timeline one of the accusers gave was false. He said that he and Michael had sex in the Neverland train in 1992. It was not even built until 1994. The County Building Permits prove it.

[marv2]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cu6rRbtTaJI

[jboy88]

Hello to everyone,
I’m new here, well I use the forum for informations but never write before.
This ‘new MJ case’ really makes me wonder...
I following 2/3 guys on twitter along with others and the stories they tell are very different from the ones you got from traditional media.

https://mobile.twitter.com/cethomson?fbclid=IwAR2sUbhkpOWRFQlGjp7ODVhGYuiiTJZ a-Lu0SZPlKYtMwgbibJm_TRQM02s

https://mobile.twitter.com/mikesmallcombe1

I also heard some interesting interviews John Ziegler did with Brandi Jackson and others.
This also very interesting:
https://whas.iheart.com/featured/terry-meiners/content/2019-03-26-john-ziegler-on-fraudulent-leaving-neverland-documentary/

Those journalists came along with very specific facts and documents that make the ‘fantastic 3’ look likes a bunch of pirates...[[in Neverland)!

So dangerous how many people so easily manipulated and accuse, judge... without doing research.
It’s so hard to get some balanced reports these days?

Ebony magazine reports some of the latest news https://www.ebony.com/entertainment/leaving-neverland-director-admits-timeline-of-alleged-abuse-is-questionable/?fbclid=IwAR34fNPA-3wdJ8JDjNp0NVvmVBl-PufCyCCXa19oev0Lgf5_7kTGhGtWA1o

Another piece by John Ziegler:
https://www.mediaite.com/opinion/why-is-u-s-media-silent-on-the-implosion-of-leaving-neverland-while-the-u-k-press-is-pouncing/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

Welcome aboard, suedehead! I agree with you 100 percent. The media coverage has been as blatantly one sided as the series itself! I heard Brandi Jackson was turned away from several mainstream platforms. The same goes for anyone else trying to offer a rebuttal.

[midnightman]

Don't know if you guys bumping this up are doing this because of a supposed "u-turn" Dan Reed made but go to his Twitter, he didn't make one lol

https://twitter.com/danreed1000

Also Jimmy Safechuck took the train pics and stayed as MJ's "special friend" until 1995 at the least.

[carlo]

Maybe Dan Reed didn't make a U-turn, but he admitted that the narrative presented in his documentary is flawed. To base an entire documentary SOLELY on the accounts of two accusers, with no hard evidence to confirm their claims, and then to say as the director, that you spent months researching, so you can confidently say that these claims are irrefutable, and then ONLY to have these claims contradicted within weeks of the documentary airing...it's not a good look. MJ did a lot of things that made himself look bad, whether or not he did anything, who knows. But this is certainly not a good look. For you to say that you were abused from 1988 to 1992, and then have that claim contradicted by HARD EVIDENCE [[ie. train station was not open until two years after the end of his timeline of abuse)...it just does not add up, especially when he is claiming that after 1992, MJ replaced him with other boys and he was no longer in the picture. So what is it then? If you are saying that you were replaced, but now saying that the abuse continued well into your teens??

I have read some other contradictions as well, regarding Wade's story. There was something about him saying spending Thanksgiving weekend of a specific year with MJ, and it was proved that MJ was in Australia at the time and then went into rehab afterward. I am sure it is only the beginning of these contradictions. But y'all can believe what you want to.

[jobeterob]

This is why you need the first hand evidence of the people that say they were abused and you need to be able to cross examine them with rules of evidence applying.

Today there are objections to the rules of law applying stringently to these cases because after 25 years, of course the timeline of things will be all flawed - train stations will be closed, events happened 3 years off etc; and the argument is that this doesn’t mean the abuse did not occur.

But to criminally convict in the western world, it is proof beyond a reasonable doubt - and then the timeline matters.

In civil cases, the burden of proof is much lower; on a balance of probabilities, did this occur?

I don’t know the intricacies of these men’s stories or life, but it seems at least one of the two isn’t the most honest, upstanding, morally righteous man - I’m referring to Wade.

But it still doesn’t mean the abuse did not occur.

[marv2]

This is why you need the first hand evidence of the people that say they were abused and you need to be able to cross examine them with rules of evidence applying.

.

How do you do that when those same two guys swore under oath that they were never abused by Michael? There also was never any evidence of child molestion after 10 years of FBI survaillance and two separate raids on Neverland. You can believe what you choose to believe even if it's not true!

[Suedehead]

Thank you very much jboy88!

There are some interesting news:

https://www.rt.com/usa/455920-michael-jackson-documentary-media/?fbclid=IwAR2I7wKJ_6fU2IrzmwGNjXYDV54B0zkGvqLqKI1l XgLndTlXb4k8aH1Vin4

https://meaww.com/michael-jackson-leaving-neverland-investigating-wade-robson

Someone should apologize here? 🤔
Of course not, as usual.
HBO and Oprah are deserting LN faster than rats.
They will go silent and act like “Leaving Neverland” never happened...
I also wouldn’t be surprised if HBO make an out of court settlement for the $100 million lawsuit with the MJ Estate.
Dan Reed is going to be left all alone, defending his unethical fantasy film...

[marv2]

Thank you very much jboy88!

There are some interesting news:

https://www.rt.com/usa/455920-michael-jackson-documentary-media/?fbclid=IwAR2I7wKJ_6fU2IrzmwGNjXYDV54B0zkGvqLqKI1l XgLndTlXb4k8aH1Vin4

https://meaww.com/michael-jackson-leaving-neverland-investigating-wade-robson

Someone should apologize here? ��
Of course not, as usual.
HBO and Oprah are deserting LN faster than rats.
They will go silent and act like “Leaving Neverland” never happened...
I also wouldn’t be surprised if HBO make an out of court settlement for the $100 million lawsuit with the MJ Estate.
Dan Reed is going to be left all alone, defending his unethical fantasy film...

His one-sided fantasy film!

[midnightman]

Latest rumors to be debunked:

HBO will continue to reair LN on HBO Now and HBO GO.
Oprah's After Neverland interview with Wade & Jimmy are available on her website where stalkers won't be commenting.

There are more testimonials from folks who had their lives changed by the documentary, not just on how they feel about Michael but about opening up their own horrid stories of being abused.

[Suedehead]

All this ‘Leaving Neverland claims’ sound odd and harmful from the very beginning and set a dangerous precedence.
This is not only about MJ of course, general public should listen to.

https://m.soundcloud.com/freespeechbroadcasting/2019-04-14-1-charles-thomson

[[A very interesting point of view from a investigative journalist plus someone who knows MJ documents court very well...)


And:
https://medium.com/@cpowers726/leaving-neverland-exposes-a-culture-of-judgement-without-ethics-17b92468619f?fbclid=IwAR1FrETGNXY-7gAYCEPsvQaBMJWcZBTv3AO3uvwtjKx17T1J2xJ897-f_uE

https://www.rt.com/usa/455920-michael-jackson-documentary-media/?fbclid=IwAR2I7wKJ_6fU2IrzmwGNjXYDV54B0zkGvqLqKI1l XgLndTlXb4k8aH1Vin4

[PeaceNHarmony]

In Oprahs defense she said that this is bigger than Michael Jackson and Oprah is survivor of sexual abuse. If this documentary brings more attention to pedophillia then its done its job. Id encourage everyone to read this.

https://medium.com/@anthonyedwards/yes-mom-there-is-something-wrong-f2bcf56434b9
That's a good post, Ms. Roberta. Very interesting information. Though we all wish that MJ would be categorically proven innocent, with 20+ years of questionable behavior racked up and who-knows how many child sleep-overs that is not possible. Best to you as always!

[Bluebrock]

That's a good post, Ms. Roberta. Very interesting information. Though we all wish that MJ would be categorically proven innocent, with 20+ years of questionable behavior racked up and who-knows how many child sleep-overs that is not possible. Best to you as always!
I have to agree with you both here. Pedophillia is a disgusting crime, and anything that can prevent even one child from going through a living hell has got to be worthwhile. All the best to you both.

[Suedehead]

I have to agree with you both here. Pedophillia is a disgusting crime, and anything that can prevent even one child from going through a living hell has got to be worthwhile. All the best to you both.

I’m also agree with you of course!
I also think that this LN movie is the most PRO-pedophilia stuff I have seen in my entire life...
Pro or against LN, #MeToo era, Media, you should listen to...
Play it ▶️
https://m.soundcloud.com/freespeechbroadcasting/2019-04-14-1-charles-thomson

[jobeterob]

https://www.cnn.com/2019/04/26/entertainment/corey-feldman-michael-jackson/index.html

Now somebody else is unsure.

[carlo]

https://www.cnn.com/2019/04/26/entertainment/corey-feldman-michael-jackson/index.html

Now somebody else is unsure.

Corey Feldman is just trying to create headlines, in order to keep his own name out there. He once said a few years ago that he was abused by a powerful ring of pedophile executives in Hollywood. To this day, he continues to stir up a barrage of controversy without having admitted any names or details. I don't necessarily trust anything he says.

[marv2]

Corey Feldman is just trying to create headlines, in order to keep his own name out there. He once said a few years ago that he was abused by a powerful ring of pedophile executives in Hollywood. To this day, he continues to stir up a barrage of controversy without having admitted any names or details. I don't necessarily trust anything he says.

Carlo, Corey Feldman said in an interview on the Today Show a few years ago that he was looking to raise money to make a film. He said that he was going to tell who those pedophile execs. were. I believe he's been offered money to now say things against Michael Jackson.

[carlo]

Carlo, Corey Feldman said in an interview on the Today Show a few years ago that he was looking to raise money to make a film. He said that he was going to tell who those pedophile execs. were. I believe he's been offered money to now say things against Michael Jackson.

I would not be surprised if he is following and being motivated by the money trail, Marv. For some years now, he has been supposedly working on a documentary to expose these dark figures in Hollywood. He had started a Go Fund Me campaign at one point, asking fans and the general public to send in donations for his film that he said would cost $10 million. After hitting the $250,000 mark in donations, Go Fund Me suspended his campaign, because they flagged it as a scam. He's done a lot of odd and sketchy things, in addition to this fundraising scam. I don't trust him.

[jobeterob]

I would not be surprised if he is following and being motivated by the money trail, Marv. For some years now, he has been supposedly working on a documentary to expose these dark figures in Hollywood. He had started a Go Fund Me campaign at one point, asking fans and the general public to send in donations for his film that he said would cost $10 million. After hitting the $250,000 mark in donations, Go Fund Me suspended his campaign, because they flagged it as a scam. He's done a lot of odd and sketchy things, in addition to this fundraising scam. I don't trust him.

These people sure are a conflicted screwed up bunch

[midnightman]

Corey is not trustworthy. But I question anyone using a GoFundMe for ANYTHING...

[jobeterob]

You have to be naive to think nothing was going on but what an unreliable crop of people