The Supremes - I'll Guess I'll Miss the Man

[marv2]

This song should have been a hit, but problem would have been how to market it. It fit perfectly in with what was programmed for MOR/AC radio in the seventies. I think it was very well produced and The Supremes could not have sounded better. This is another one of those recordings that just seemed to slip through the cracks:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZWarCdOucTI

[Bluebrock]

This song should have been a hit, but problem would have been how to market it. It fit perfectly in with what was programmed for MOR/AC radio in the seventies. I think it was very well produced and The Supremes could not have sounded better. This is another one of those recordings that just seemed to slip through the cracks:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZWarCdOucTI
I love it too but maybe it just lacked that commercial factor to push it further. Beautiful vocals by Jean as always. I hated the Jimmy Webb album but this is one lovely song that i still play regularly.

[sup_fan]

i too really like the recording and think Jean's controlled vocal is marvelous. while i did enjoy her live work, she's often stray heavily from the melody and song with her ad libs and "soul." that certainly showcased her talents but sometimes less is more. Often i really wasn't thrilled with her performances of Stoned Love as she'd completely ditch the melody and just vamp. one of the beauties of SL is the amazing lyric and melody

as for IGIMTM, i think a couple of things happened. just like a plane crash, it's usually never 1 specific thing

1. loss of Cindy - not trying to start a lynda war as i really like her. but the personnel change in the spring of 72 really hurt the girls IMO. they'd made a strong showing with FJ but then the wind was let out of their sails. AS crept into the top 40 and YWSSL flopped. so by the time they got to IGIMTM the steam was gone

2. motown's move to LA - i think this also contributed to problems. their HQ staff was tied up with the move and so probably totally distracted

3. Lady Sings - we all know berry was focused on this and not music

4. Pippin - it's a good show. but it's not an amazing show. yes it won some Tony's but it never really had the "oomph" of other big Broadway productions. You had had Hair just a few years before, then Jesus Christ Superstar. Also Company was huge. so i think Pippin just didn't quite penetrate the collective US conscience. Also the show didn't debut on broadway until late Oct 73. so the single was probably a little premature. perhaps if the single was released closer to when the Tony's were held and/or announced, since it was nominated for several, it would have done a bit better

[Circa 1824]

The problem was the musical arrangement. It should have been strong and lush, not simple and understated. Jean's voice was too prominent, and dominated the song. Her voice is interesting, but not beautiful

Also, the song was almost too "intelligent" for the average pop radio listener. Thus, it had no chance to be a radio hit.

[sup_fan]

true - the lyrics are a bit too down. the topic of the song is a bit depressing. many other popular ballads are 1) more lush as you said and 2) more focused on love, romance or passion

also another interesting point is that almost exactly a year prior they tried Touch and it failed miserably. of course there are many reasons why that could be - the creepy sort of "haunted house" intro with the strings, Mary's voice not being as familiar with the public, the contrast of Mary's buttery smooth vocals and Jean's higher pitched, more piercing sound, a hideously mastered single

[marv2]

Here is a List of number-one adult contemporary singles of 1972 [[U.S.). I would put "I Guess I'll Miss the Man" up against any one of them in terms of sound and "commercial" viability, which only means would it sell:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_number-one_adult_contemporary_singles_of_1972_[[U.S.)

[marv2]

i too really like the recording and think Jean's controlled vocal is marvelous. while i did enjoy her live work, she's often stray heavily from the melody and song with her ad libs and "soul." that certainly showcased her talents but sometimes less is more. Often i really wasn't thrilled with her performances of Stoned Love as she'd completely ditch the melody and just vamp. one of the beauties of SL is the amazing lyric and melody

as for IGIMTM, i think a couple of things happened. just like a plane crash, it's usually never 1 specific thing

1. loss of Cindy - not trying to start a lynda war as i really like her. but the personnel change in the spring of 72 really hurt the girls IMO. they'd made a strong showing with FJ but then the wind was let out of their sails. AS crept into the top 40 and YWSSL flopped. so by the time they got to IGIMTM the steam was gone

2. motown's move to LA - i think this also contributed to problems. their HQ staff was tied up with the move and so probably totally distracted

3. Lady Sings - we all know berry was focused on this and not music

4. Pippin - it's a good show. but it's not an amazing show. yes it won some Tony's but it never really had the "oomph" of other big Broadway productions. You had had Hair just a few years before, then Jesus Christ Superstar. Also Company was huge. so i think Pippin just didn't quite penetrate the collective US conscience. Also the show didn't debut on broadway until late Oct 73. so the single was probably a little premature. perhaps if the single was released closer to when the Tony's were held and/or announced, since it was nominated for several, it would have done a bit better

I was going purely by the sound of the recording. What people would hear if it were played on the radio. All the other things you mentioned, most would not even know about and would not effect how good or bad the recording sounded.

[marv2]

The problem was the musical arrangement. It should have been strong and lush, not simple and understated. Jean's voice was too prominent, and dominated the song. Her voice is interesting, but not beautiful

Also, the song was almost too "intelligent" for the average pop radio listener. Thus, it had no chance to be a radio hit.

I thoroughly agree that it may have been too "intelligent" for the average pop radio listener. Thinking back, some of the biggest radio hits had "simple simon" lyrics with a beat or hook that was very simple.

[marv2]

true - the lyrics are a bit too down. the topic of the song is a bit depressing. many other popular ballads are 1) more lush as you said and 2) more focused on love, romance or passion

also another interesting point is that almost exactly a year prior they tried Touch and it failed miserably. of course there are many reasons why that could be - the creepy sort of "haunted house" intro with the strings, Mary's voice not being as familiar with the public, the contrast of Mary's buttery smooth vocals and Jean's higher pitched, more piercing sound, a hideously mastered single

"Alone Again [[Naturally)" by Gilbert O'Sullivan had some of the most depressing lyrics ever, yet it still went to number one on the A/C charts in 1972.

[sup_fan]

I was going purely by the sound of the recording. What people would hear if it were played on the radio. All the other things you mentioned, most would not even know about and would not effect how good or bad the recording sounded.

and i think the sounds is quite pretty. i like the simplicity and all.

but a pretty song doesn't always equal a hit. i think as the song is, it should have charted FAR higher than it did. sure maybe it would never have been a #1, or maybe if they'd tweaked it a few ways it might have been better. but my take on why it failed in fall of 72 is as stated above. i think the group's then-current recording reputation was rapidly diminishing, radio programmers were thinking no one really cares much about them any more, the public and press were wondering why so many girls were in the group and meanwhile motown was focused elsewhere.

that's why the record didn't get played on radio much, IMO

[thommg]

true - the lyrics are a bit too down. the topic of the song is a bit depressing. many other popular ballads are 1) more lush as you said and 2) more focused on love, romance or passion

It is interesting that you say that about the lyrics because they are not the ones used in the Broadway show. Those are lyrics rewritten to make it a love song. The lyrics in the show are actually humorous.
"Some days he wouldn't say
A pleasant word all day
Some days he'd scowl and curse
But there were other days
When he was really... even worse..."

[sup_fan]

wow - that certainly adds a new dimension to the tune lol. are those the lyrics that would have been sung during the group "oooo" section? always figured that they added that part to highlight the trio's harmonies and therefore skipping whatever lyrics normally are sung there

[midnightman]

If they kept the song the way it was written, it would be a hit.

[jobucats]

I had never heard the song until I heard the Supremes version, so that's what I came to love.

[marv2]

Jean Terrell's voice is extremely beautiful in my opinion.

[sup_fan]

^agreed she was amazingly versatile. too bad we didn't get to hear her do more things with the group. i know by the 70s they weren't really doing the "specialty material" albums like the girls did before. but image if they decided to do another full show lp a la Funny Girl. i can totally hear Jean being amazing on the soundtrack to Hair or Jesus Christ Superstar

[kenneth]

I never knew until someone on this forum told me that it was the only track on the "Jimmy Webb" album not produced by JW. I've never liked the song. I think it has a verse but no chorus and is just so, so downbeat. Even though the subject matter might not seem to warrant it, I think a more upbeat arrangement might make it "sell" better.

And although I can't say why [[how should I know?) I'm kind of surprised that Marv likes this song so much!

I felt the "Jimmy Webb" album really starts with the opening chords of "5:30 Plane," in my opinion one of Jean's best performances.

[marv2]

I never knew until someone on this forum told me that it was the only track on the "Jimmy Webb" album not produced by JW. I've never liked the song. I think it has a verse but no chorus and is just so, so downbeat. Even though the subject matter might not seem to warrant it, I think a more upbeat arrangement might make it "sell" better.

And although I can't say why [[how should I know?) I'm kind of surprised that Marv likes this song so much!

I felt the "Jimmy Webb" album really starts with the opening chords of "5:30 Plane," in my opinion one of Jean's best performances.

It is just a good song and a great vocal performance in my opinion. I don't remember how I felt about it back when it was released, but I do like it when I hear it now.

[kenneth]

It is just a good song and a great vocal performance in my opinion. I don't remember how I felt about it back when it was released, but I do like it when I hear it now.

Did you know at the time when it was released as a single? I never did, never heard it anywhere but on that album.

[daviddh]

i liked the live version when the ladies sing it in harmony but it is not a fav of mine. i think WHEN CAN BROWN BEGIN was the gem. overlooked. dont like the album.to low key for me.
overall, motown's move to LA not only hurt the Supremes but just about everyone at motown but ,....about 4 people. sad. BG should have kept detroit open for music and LA for movies and specials.

[milven]

I remember when it was released as a single. Although I will probably be proven wrong, I also remember it as the first stereo Motown single.

I saw Pippin on Broadway when it first opened back in the stone age and enjoyed the cast, story and music. Besides MISS THE MAN, it also had another Motown hit, CORNER OF THE SKY. And one of my favorites, Ben Vereen, did MAGIC TO DO.

Even Granny from the Beverly Hillbillies was in it and sang NO TIME AT ALL. In fact, she re-recorded it, and it was released on Motown. How 'bout that? Granny of the BEVERLY HILLBILLIES was a Motown artist :o

http://images.45cat.com/irene-granny-ryan-no-time-at-all-motown-s.jpg


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O6uv04uO7l8

[marv2]

Did you know at the time when it was released as a single? I never did, never heard it anywhere but on that album.

Yeah I knew. It was played in Detroit and Toledo at the time on A/C formatted stations.

[marv2]

I think Motown was an investor or something in the show.

[TomatoTom123]

Just listened to the song for what I think was the first time and it's entirely pleasant and very lovely, but not a hit, in my opinion. Jean is wonderful though. :)

[marv2]

This was said about the record at the time of it's release:

14944

[kenneth]

That’s a very interesting review considering how unusual the record was for a single release really. Thanks for posting.

I think this song might’ve also been helped if it had another verse perhaps. It’s really quite short as I recall it. I think it would’ve been better if it had been fleshed out a little bit. Maybe with a nice bridge in the middle also.

[TomatoTom123]

This was said about the record at the time of it's release:

14944

Thanks marv, I think that's from the UK's Blues & Soul magazine. I agree it would probably need a lot of exposure to hit, it's nice and will grow on me but that might take a while. :D

[marv2]

That’s a very interesting review considering how unusual the record was for a single release really. Thanks for posting.

I think this song might’ve also been helped if it had another verse perhaps. It’s really quite short as I recall it. I think it would’ve been better if it had been fleshed out a little bit. Maybe with a nice bridge in the middle also.

It was no more unusual than "The First Time Ever I Saw Your Face" by Roberta Flack that was released a few month's prior to the Supremes record.

[sup_fan]

i think a more simple production style and acoustic approach/sound would have definitely worked for the girls. by later 72 things were changing and, at a high level, i think much of the Jimmy work could have worked. love the opening chords on 530. and even though I Guess wasn't his, i think it could have tied in nicely. unfortunately what we got from Jimmy was these overproduced operatic messes. had the vocals been limited to just MJL and had they toned down a few of the productions to be somewhat less bombastic and over producer, it could have worked.

Also i think they should have done more JW songs within the set list

[gordy_hunk]

Marv - thanks for the quote which of course, relates to the UK release.

As far as I know, Pippin was not a stage production over here, so we had to rely on the soundtrack [[which I really did enjoy - and was one of my favourite LP at that time), and the singles - The Supremes [[I guess I'll miss the man) and Michael Jackson's "Morning glow".

The LP - Produced etc by Jimmy Webb I really didn't like, and along with Floy Joy LP, the Supremes for me were going off completely [[even though I did like Your wonderful sweet sweet love and also Automatically Sunshine).

The single - Morning Glow - was really well sung by Michael, and yet both of these singles didn't seem to have much airplay nor sales.

I know people comment about the lineup of the Supremes, but, and I am only able to speak for myself, I knew Jean had taken over [[of course), and I knew who the other two were, but even until the 1975 LP "The Supremes", I had no idea that the lineup was any different to that after being announced at the Frontier Hotel on January 14 1970.

Just my humble opinion, but the single "I guess I'll miss the man" may have been more appropriate for Mary to have sung.

[thommg]

Pippin did play London in 1973, but only for 85 performances. The chance for anyone to see it was pretty slim!

[kenneth]

It was no more unusual than "The First Time Ever I Saw Your Face" by Roberta Flack that was released a few month's prior to the Supremes record.

There certainly are some similarities but one difference I think is that Flack often performed these kind of langorous, slow moving songs and her voice seemed suited to that tempo. I think I recall that "First Time" was off her first album but didn't hit until a few years later. I do like that song a lot.

Good observation though.

[Boogiedown]

Ha !! I just listened to this song .....the "man" was a total jerk, a butthole, and likely worse .

She has nothing good to say about him except at the end where she concludes he's better than nothing.

I can see why it failed, hardly a healthy outlook for a relationship even back then, can't imagine a woman singing it today.

[johnjeb]

Ha !! I just listened to this song .....the "man" was a total jerk, a butthole, and likely worse .

She has nothing good to say about him except at the end where she concludes he's better than nothing.

I can see why it failed, hardly a healthy outlook for a relationship even back then, can't imagine a woman singing it today.

Exactly, not too many males were going to listen to this song on the radio for 2:38 about a man behaving badly.

"Last Time I Saw Him" was also not favorable about a man but had a snappy melody which may have helped; same with "Nathan Jones".

Roberta Flack's "First Time" and "Killing Me Softly" both spoke positively about a man's attributes.

[sup_fan]

yeah - while i'm not all that familiar with the overall plot and characters of Pippin, i'm assuming that the song somehow fits in with the trials and tribulations of one of the characters. she story and plot must somehow fit in with the lyrics

I'd assume there HAS to be other more interesting and exciting songs from the score that the girls could have done. what if they did Corner instead of the J5?

Or why didn't motown have the acts do more of the score and then issue a Various Artist soundtrack? something to help push the show and Motown's involvement.

but again, i think the girls would have been just as better off with doing something else. or have them do a more interesting score lp - a la Funny Girl

[kenneth]

@sup_fan, sounds like a fun idea for a thread. What shows could Motown have recorded using their marquee acts?

Hello Dolly! - with Diana Ross would seem like a natural, and she's the right age for the part now, but would have been too young while at Motown

Follies - all the Divas would be great in this show, and it does have an older cast so they could even be cast in it today

How to Succeed in Business Without Really Trying - this is a fun show and would have been great to see someone like the young Marvin Gaye playing the ambitious, upwardly mobile hero

Promises, Promises - the musical version of the film "The Apartment," with a score by Bacharach and David. The hero [[Jerry Orbach on Broadway) could be any number of Motown male stars, the confused girl could have been played by someone like Mary Wilson. Of course, these are young parts so they couldn't do it today. This score includes gems like "I'll Never Fall in Love Again" and of course, the title tune.

[marv2]

"I Guess I'll Miss the Man" did make it to #17 on Billboard's Adult Contemporary Chart.

[bradsupremes]

I always found this era as a group in identity crisis. They didn't know what they wanted to be. To go from the material like "Floy Joy" and "Your Wonderful Sweet Sweet Love" to "I Guess I'll Miss The Man" and then to "Bad Weather" is pretty jarring. "I Guess I'll Miss The Man" is a nice song, but it's definitely not single worthy. I hardly play it. It just doesn't grab you and was a poor choice for a single at a time when the group really needed a kick into a new gear. I wonder if that was Motown's doing as way to bring the group to a halt. I'm not sure when "Remote Control" was recorded, but they needed a song like that especially one to reintroduce them to the R&B community. The Jimmy Webb album was a mistake and should have never happened. I know there was talk of Thom Bell at one time coming in to produce them. That's the direction they should have moved.

[midnightman]

Right. I review the albums after 1971 and it was like the group - and the label itself - didn't know where to take the group. After so many years on top and setting the trend, they were really stuck. Remote Control definitely should've definitely been released over IGIMTM.

[marv2]

I always found this era as a group in identity crisis. They didn't know what they wanted to be. To go from the material like "Floy Joy" and "Your Wonderful Sweet Sweet Love" to "I Guess I'll Miss The Man" and then to "Bad Weather" is pretty jarring. "I Guess I'll Miss The Man" is a nice song, but it's definitely not single worthy. I hardly play it. It just doesn't grab you and was a poor choice for a single at a time when the group really needed a kick into a new gear. I wonder if that was Motown's doing as way to bring the group to a halt. I'm not sure when "Remote Control" was recorded, but they needed a song like that especially one to reintroduce them to the R&B community. The Jimmy Webb album was a mistake and should have never happened. I know there was talk of Thom Bell at one time coming in to produce them. That's the direction they should have moved.

"Floy Joy" was a #5 R&B/Soul hit just a few months prior to "I Guess I'll Miss the Man" being released. So it wasn't that they needed any re-introductions. We never left them.

[marv2]

The Supremes had 6 single releases in 1972 which was too many.

[TheMotownManiac]

The Supremes had 3 single releases in 1972: automatically sunshine, your wonderful sweet sweet love, I guess I’ll miss the man. There were no others. All 3 were problematic as singles.
Automatically sunshine has a fairly weak chorus, but wonderful verses very well sung. Mary is sexy as hell.

YWSSL Has a great track, but Jean doesn’t sell the lyric correctly so the listener is instantly lost as to what the song is about – which is A single killer right off the bat. Also, the background vocals need to be brightened up by a higher voice. I know the on anDantes are on this album, so there’s no excuse for the dull bg sound. It’s too bad they couldn’t bring Flo back just to record backgrounds with Mary.

IGIMTM is a pretty, gentle tune but it’s a very unpleasant lyric and not one that people would identify with and want to listen to over and over again. Jeans vocal performance is superb and I think it needed a little bit better production and some sort of ending…… As it stands, It was a terrible choice to go out as it is…. but with some help I think it could’ve hit.

[marv2]

They had six [[6) releases in 1972. That is a fact, everything else is just your opinion.....

1. "Floy Joy" [[released in Dec. 71' but did not enter the charts until Jan. 72'
2. "Automatically Sunshine"
3. "Without the One You Love"
4. "Your Wonderful, Sweet Sweet Love"
5. "I Guess I'll Miss the Man"
6. "Reach Out and Touch [[Somebody's Hand)"

[gordy_hunk]

Pippin did play London in 1973, but only for 85 performances. The chance for anyone to see it was pretty slim!

Thanks for the update - I never knew that it had ever been performed here. Must admit, even though I really did love the LP, "Pippin", I had absolutely no idea what the story was really about [[nor did I know any of the performers, including Irene Granny Ryan, although I later learned she was famous for being in some kind of series?).

[sup_fan]

They had six [[6) releases in 1972. That is a fact, everything else is just your opinion.....

1. "Floy Joy" [[released in Dec. 71' but did not enter the charts until Jan. 72'
2. "Automatically Sunshine"
3. "Without the One You Love"
4. "Your Wonderful, Sweet Sweet Love"
5. "I Guess I'll Miss the Man"
6. "Reach Out and Touch [[Somebody's Hand)"

You're mixing regions. Without and Reach were only international releases. they were not in the US. the singles RELEASED on the US were

Automatically Sunshine - 4/11/72
YWSSL - 7/11/72
I Guess - Oct 72 [[not sure why no sources can list the date of the month - anyone??)

internationally the release schedule was:
Floy Joy - Feb 72
Without - May 72
Auto - June 72
Reach - Nov 72
YWSSL - Nov 72

Internationally, I Guess wasn't released until Jan 74. As for FJ in the states, yes i agree that you have a point that it's charting activity was in 72 and not 71. And the girls promoted it on Merv in Jan 72. but technically, the single was released on 12/1. there certainly were other singles that started to chart within weeks or even days of release. FJ obviously took a little time to warm up. but it was a 71 release.

[sup_fan]

I always found this era as a group in identity crisis. They didn't know what they wanted to be. To go from the material like "Floy Joy" and "Your Wonderful Sweet Sweet Love" to "I Guess I'll Miss The Man" and then to "Bad Weather" is pretty jarring. "I Guess I'll Miss The Man" is a nice song, but it's definitely not single worthy. I hardly play it. It just doesn't grab you and was a poor choice for a single at a time when the group really needed a kick into a new gear. I wonder if that was Motown's doing as way to bring the group to a halt. I'm not sure when "Remote Control" was recorded, but they needed a song like that especially one to reintroduce them to the R&B community. The Jimmy Webb album was a mistake and should have never happened. I know there was talk of Thom Bell at one time coming in to produce them. That's the direction they should have moved.

you're definitely right. wasn't it around mid 72 that their identify crisis continued over to their live shows too, when they took a bunch of the old DRATS song book and brought many of the tunes back?

It always seemed, at least through the mid 70s, that there was a total lack of coordination between the studio and live work of the groups. Diana included. they were taking these huge Vegas-like shows and touring them everywhere. and then they occasionally incorporate a new recorded song. But the tours weren't focused on centered around an album or project. maybe they started some of this with Diana and Lady tours. but the Sups certainly weren't doing anything significant to promote their lps.

Working with 3 high profile producers - Smokey, JW and SW - you'd think that they're really hype that up. leverage the producer's name and notoriety. revamp the show to acknowledge their working with him. plus the revamping of the show would have re-energized the public's desire to attend

[bradsupremes]

you're definitely right. wasn't it around mid 72 that their identify crisis continued over to their live shows too, when they took a bunch of the old DRATS song book and brought many of the tunes back?

It always seemed, at least through the mid 70s, that there was a total lack of coordination between the studio and live work of the groups. Diana included. they were taking these huge Vegas-like shows and touring them everywhere. and then they occasionally incorporate a new recorded song. But the tours weren't focused on centered around an album or project. maybe they started some of this with Diana and Lady tours. but the Sups certainly weren't doing anything significant to promote their lps.

Working with 3 high profile producers - Smokey, JW and SW - you'd think that they're really hype that up. leverage the producer's name and notoriety. revamp the show to acknowledge their working with him. plus the revamping of the show would have re-energized the public's desire to attend

Exactly. When Gil Askey came back as their musical director, he brought out the Farewell charts and reincorporated them into the show. Jean was not particularly happy with this. She refused to say the spoken passages in "Love Is Here And Now You're Gone" and put her foot down on doing "Love Child" despite having performed it in their shows when she first joined. I think a lot of this falls back on Motown and their inability to break out of the Vegas-style show format that had worked so well in the 60s. By 1972, the musical audience had changed and doing a Vegas-style show dated the group and skewed them to an older crowd.

They needed a Vicki Wickham to come in and totally reinvent them, their image, and musical approach. I would have kept the glamour, but dropped the 60s gowns and become more in line with how the Three Degrees were doing it. When I said earlier that they needed to be reintroduced to the R&B community, I meant in the aspect that they should have been the primary target in their musical approach. In the 60s, Motown was really about the crossover appeal. They wanted to hit on the pop charts. By the 70s, the focus should have shifted to just the R&B charts and less on the pop. The Pointer Sisters were catching fire around this time. Having someone like Thom Bell or Stevie Wonder as their musical advisor/producer would have steered them into a direction of being a strictly R&B act. Drop the Vegas stuff, the lighter pop stuff, etc. The ladies were totally capable of it. Transformation was needed and it could have kept them going for much longer.

[kenneth]

I think @bradsupremes' analysis is astute and interesting, and I largely agree with him. [[Of course I always find people interesting when I agree with them... :) .)

But seriously, I only discovered the Diane-led group after they'd split up already. I liked some of the Jean Terrell singles a great deal, and their albums as well. But as @brad mentions, the styling and gowns made them seem kind of quaint to me at the time. When the group evolved into Mary, Scherrie and Susaye [[or MS and Cindy even), they did seem to change their image to something hipper and younger.

It does seem there just wasn't enough attention made to just who their audience was or should be, whether it should continue to be the Vegas crowd or young record buyers. Of course, with Berry Gordy's attention to Diane during their prime years, this balance was achieved very skillfully. Without his personal attention, and for many other reasons of course, the group's image was scattered and floundered some.

[sup_fan]

yeah the bootlegs i have of the tours in late 72 with the Temps, their Dec 72 Apollo show and then Japan are a hot mess. there's no focus, too many random songs and show tunes, the endless 60s medleys and a real lack of their own material.

I'm surprised that by this point in their career, the girls themselves didn't have more authority on their shows. the old Artist Development program was pretty much long gone by the 70s. Berry wasn't involved so clearly he didn't care. Based on interviews and books, we know J and L wanted to shift their sound, look and approach. Was it mary that didn't want to diverge too far? was it their managers? but you're right, poor decisions and a lack of evolution [[plus motown's lack of heavy support) did them in

[sup_fan]

When the group evolved into Mary, Scherrie and Susaye [[or MS and Cindy even), they did seem to change their image to something hipper and younger.


Actually i think the MSC group was really out of touch. They were wearing these giant ballgowns that did nothing for their new disco choreography.

With Susaye, things started to get a bit better, but once mary was preg again they pulled out the older sets of gowns that had maternity versions [[the green ones, the zebra print, the huge and overwhelming jesus robes).

[kenneth]

I wonder if Marv2 would render his opinion on what derailed them during this time. I think Pedro Ferrer's management of the group was clearly a misstep. Being an expert on all things Mary-related, I wonder if Marv would agree.

[marv2]

I wonder if Marv2 would render his opinion on what derailed them during this time. I think Pedro Ferrer's management of the group was clearly a misstep. Being an expert on all things Mary-related, I wonder if Marv would agree.

I do not agree. First of all Wayne Wiesbart was the Supremes manager at this time. Lyndsa Laurence was showing out and Ewart Abner and Motown had had enough of the BS!

[sup_fan]

Pedro wasn't involved with the Supremes during the time of IGIMTM. I believe mary met pedro in 73 in Puerto Rico. while he certainly made questionable managerial decisions, he was not responsible for any of the problems that occurred while Jean was around

[bradsupremes]

I tend to think there was some hesitation on Mary’s part to change particularly when it came to their image. The Supremes were all about glamour and ditching it all may not have transitioned well. I think it just needed to be reimagined. Someone should have put their foot down when it came to bringing out the 60s gowns. It just didn’t help them especially by the time Scherrie was introduced. As for music, I think Mary was open to whatever worked hence Jimmy Webb, Stevie, disco, etc. Motown was certainly dropping the ball by 1972, but with bringing on Pedro they were finished. Pedro was a torpedo to the boat.

[rod_rick]

I tend to think there was some hesitation on Mary’s part to change particularly when it came to their image. The Supremes were all about glamour and ditching it all may not have transitioned well. I think it just needed to be reimagined. Someone should have put their foot down when it came to bringing out the 60s gowns. It just didn’t help them especially by the time Scherrie was introduced. As for music, I think Mary was open to whatever worked hence Jimmy Webb, Stevie, disco, etc. Motown was certainly dropping the ball by 1972, but with bringing on Pedro they were finished. Pedro was a torpedo to the boat.

Motown really dropped th ball i.e.. "Bend A Little". Why this song was left in the can I will never understand

[marv2]

I tend to think there was some hesitation on Mary’s part to change particularly when it came to their image. The Supremes were all about glamour and ditching it all may not have transitioned well. I think it just needed to be reimagined. Someone should have put their foot down when it came to bringing out the 60s gowns. It just didn’t help them especially by the time Scherrie was introduced. As for music, I think Mary was open to whatever worked hence Jimmy Webb, Stevie, disco, etc. Motown was certainly dropping the ball by 1972, but with bringing on Pedro they were finished. Pedro was a torpedo to the boat.

See you guys say that all the time, but that is not how it was at all and you give Pedro Ferrer way too much power in your imaginations of what actually went on. Truth be told [[and that is what I do, hehehehehe) there would have not been any "Supremes" after 1973 had it not been for Mary and Pedro. Motown is the one that pulled resources, etc from the act! I think you guys read the books and mix up too much of Mary Wilson's and Pedro Ferrer personal martial problems in with what went on with the group and business. They were a Motown signed act and Motown was ultimately responsible!

[marv2]

Motown really dropped th ball i.e.. "Bend A Little". Why this song was left in the can I will never understand

Exactly! Motown didn't care if they had recorded that song or anything else by that point.

[kenneth]

Motown really dropped th ball i.e.. "Bend A Little". Why this song was left in the can I will never understand

That is my absolute favorite amongst the previously unreleased tracks from the Scherrie years. What a dynamite performance by Scherrie who in my opinion could out sing just about anyone. I liked it when it was just an instrumental track on one of the "Disc-o-Tech" albums and when I heard it vocalized I couldn't believe it had been left in the can either!

[bradsupremes]

See you guys say that all the time, but that is not how it was at all and you give Pedro Ferrer way too much power in your imaginations of what actually went on. Truth be told [[and that is what I do, hehehehehe) there would have not been any "Supremes" after 1973 had it not been for Mary and Pedro. Motown is the one that pulled resources, etc from the act! I think you guys read the books and mix up too much of Mary Wilson's and Pedro Ferrer personal martial problems in with what went on with the group and business. They were a Motown signed act and Motown was ultimately responsible!

He’s the reason why Cindy Birdsong was fired.

[marv2]

He’s the reason why Cindy Birdsong was fired.

Cindy had a hand in it too though. Another very prominent Motown artist also encouraged it. I know it's hard stuff, the truth, but as they say, it is what it is or it was what it was.......

[Roberta75]

See you guys say that all the time, but that is not how it was at all and you give Pedro Ferrer way too much power in your imaginations of what actually went on. Truth be told [[and that is what I do, hehehehehe) there would have not been any "Supremes" after 1973 had it not been for Mary and Pedro. Motown is the one that pulled resources, etc from the act! I think you guys read the books and mix up too much of Mary Wilson's and Pedro Ferrer personal martial problems in with what went on with the group and business. They were a Motown signed act and Motown was ultimately responsible!

You always defend wife beaters and abusive mysoginists like Pedro Ferrer and Cosby and Ike Turner. Smh. Next thing youll be saying is the Fake one in the WH never said he can just grab women by the pus*y.

[Roberta75]

I do not agree. First of all Wayne Wiesbart was the Supremes manager at this time. Lyndsa Laurence was showing out and Ewart Abner and Motown had had enough of the BS!

You dont agree that your an expert on all things Mary related? Thats real humbling. I respect your honesty.

[midnightman]

Lemme try to steer this thread back before it's closed down but what happened with the Supremes is what happened to a lot of groups once they achieve success for so long, after ten years, your label deserts you for someone new. They did that to Aretha and the Spinners on Atlantic. Ray Charles' career, after nearly ten years of nonstop commercial success, on ABC began fading out by 1968. The Supremes could've try to find a way to salvage the '70s like the Temptations did in releasing cutting-edge music, getting with the times but still maintaining the glamour that helped to make them. The Temptations found a way to evolve better than most vocal groups, why couldn't the Supremes? I'd pick a single better than I Guess I'll Miss the Man first off.

[bradsupremes]

Lemme try to steer this thread back before it's closed down but what happened with the Supremes is what happened to a lot of groups once they achieve success for so long, after ten years, your label deserts you for someone new. They did that to Aretha and the Spinners on Atlantic. Ray Charles' career, after nearly ten years of nonstop commercial success, on ABC began fading out by 1968. The Supremes could've try to find a way to salvage the '70s like the Temptations did in releasing cutting-edge music, getting with the times but still maintaining the glamour that helped to make them. The Temptations found a way to evolve better than most vocal groups, why couldn't the Supremes? I'd pick a single better than I Guess I'll Miss the Man first off.

You’re right. It all goes back to direction. I think after the promotion of the Floy Joy material with Lynda’s entrance and seeing how poorly “Your Wonderful Sweet Sweet Love” charted [[should have charted much higher in my book), Motown, the girls, their manager, etc all should have sit down and planned out their next steps. If Jimmy Webb came in with idea to do their next album much like what he would do a few years later for the 5th Dimension on the Earthbound album then I’d say go for it. But the direction that he proposed and its sound was totally wrong for what they needed. By this time a lot of Motown artists, songwriters, and producers were jumping ship. I know Norman Whitfield was getting close to departing, but I have to wonder what he could have brought to the girls’ sound in path of Rose Royce’s “Ooo Boy.” Maybe if the girls paired with Stevie sooner it could have put a little more wind into the sails. I know Motown was against bringing in outside people, but maybe pairing them with Curtis Mayfield could have relit the fire. I know we can’t change the past, but it does make you wonder if it had been done differently what the rest could have been.

[Bluebrock]

Motown really dropped th ball i.e.. "Bend A Little". Why this song was left in the can I will never understand
This was a minor little gem that should not have been left in the can. It beggars belief that the appallingly dull and dreary "where is it i belong" made the final cut yet a potential hit like Bend a little was left off.

[marv2]

You’re right. It all goes back to direction. I think after the promotion of the Floy Joy material with Lynda’s entrance and seeing how poorly “Your Wonderful Sweet Sweet Love” charted [[should have charted much higher in my book), Motown, the girls, their manager, etc all should have sit down and planned out their next steps. If Jimmy Webb came in with idea to do their next album much like what he would do a few years later for the 5th Dimension on the Earthbound album then I’d say go for it. But the direction that he proposed and its sound was totally wrong for what they needed. By this time a lot of Motown artists, songwriters, and producers were jumping ship. I know Norman Whitfield was getting close to departing, but I have to wonder what he could have brought to the girls’ sound in path of Rose Royce’s “Ooo Boy.” Maybe if the girls paired with Stevie sooner it could have put a little more wind into the sails. I know Motown was against bringing in outside people, but maybe pairing them with Curtis Mayfield could have relit the fire. I know we can’t change the past, but it does make you wonder if it had been done differently what the rest could have been.
I like the Curtis Mayfield idea very much! I wished that could have happened. Look at the work he did with Gladys Knight and the Pips and Aretha Franklin........whew!

[sup_fan]

See you guys say that all the time, but that is not how it was at all and you give Pedro Ferrer way too much power in your imaginations of what actually went on. Truth be told [[and that is what I do, hehehehehe) there would have not been any "Supremes" after 1973 had it not been for Mary and Pedro. Motown is the one that pulled resources, etc from the act! I think you guys read the books and mix up too much of Mary Wilson's and Pedro Ferrer personal martial problems in with what went on with the group and business. They were a Motown signed act and Motown was ultimately responsible!

i do think you're correct Marv. Mary was the one that pushed for the group beyond 73. and very possibly with Pedro supporting her, it wouldn't have happened. She absolutely was the one that somehow got motown and berry to [[even reluctantly) give them a second chance.

[sup_fan]

You’re right. It all goes back to direction. I think after the promotion of the Floy Joy material with Lynda’s entrance and seeing how poorly “Your Wonderful Sweet Sweet Love” charted [[should have charted much higher in my book), Motown, the girls, their manager, etc all should have sit down and planned out their next steps. If Jimmy Webb came in with idea to do their next album much like what he would do a few years later for the 5th Dimension on the Earthbound album then I’d say go for it. But the direction that he proposed and its sound was totally wrong for what they needed. By this time a lot of Motown artists, songwriters, and producers were jumping ship. I know Norman Whitfield was getting close to departing, but I have to wonder what he could have brought to the girls’ sound in path of Rose Royce’s “Ooo Boy.” Maybe if the girls paired with Stevie sooner it could have put a little more wind into the sails. I know Motown was against bringing in outside people, but maybe pairing them with Curtis Mayfield could have relit the fire. I know we can’t change the past, but it does make you wonder if it had been done differently what the rest could have been.

all very interesting ideas. I think also right that there should have been more of a collective effort to sit down and thoughtfully plan the future road map for the group. but i don't know if that's really Mary's strong point - group management. I do think, based on my own opinion and what i've read, she was largely the one grasping onto the older supremes image and could possibly have been the one really hesitant about evolving it too much.

the group needed someone that had a sharp ear and eye towards what trends were emerging in the 70s. music was continuing to diversify and there should have been an opportunity for them to do something unique and worthwhile in the mid 70s. I do think the move in the later 70s to disco was a good one for them and, had some significant problems been erased or solved, the group could have really found a new hit period

[danman869]

I am going to add my two cents on “Bend A Little.” I think the track was HOT. Aggressive and danceable, to be sure. The chorus of “bend a little, give a little, that’s all we gotta doooooo!” good, but I think the verses are weak—both in that they aren’t memorable AND they’re kind of lost in the mix. I can hum the tune, but I can’t tell you the lyrics. Great opportunity with the track, but maybe it was rejected because of the reasons I stated above? Maybe it wasn’t worth writing new lyrics or maybe there was too little time to remix it? I’m glad we have had the track on a few sets in the last 10 years or so. It would’ve been fine on SUPREMES ‘75 as an album cut. I just don’t see it—as is—as the lost answer to the group’s prayers at that time.

As for “Where Is It I Belong,” I like the ballad aspect of it for Mary’s sake. She sounds good, though she’d admittedly had better ballads released between 1970-1977. I think the song needed more lyrical work and maybe a key change at some point modulating up towards the end. Those who want to gripe about the “he was Capricorn and a love was born” lyric should remember that DRATS sang an entire song about astrology and love, so... one line doesn’t ruin the song—just dates it a bit. I don’t think it was intended as a song with single potential, but it’s a good album track.

There were only 10 tracks on the album; it should’ve been filled with 12—and we now know there were still plenty of good songs from recording for this album that were left in the can.

[marv2]

I am going to add my two cents on “Bend A Little.” I think the track was HOT. Aggressive and danceable, to be sure. The chorus of “bend a little, give a little, that’s all we gotta doooooo!” good, but I think the verses are weak—both in that they aren’t memorable AND they’re kind of lost in the mix. I can hum the tune, but I can’t tell you the lyrics. Great opportunity with the track, but maybe it was rejected because of the reasons I stated above? Maybe it wasn’t worth writing new lyrics or maybe there was too little time to remix it? I’m glad we have had the track on a few sets in the last 10 years or so. It would’ve been fine on SUPREMES ‘75 as an album cut. I just don’t see it—as is—as the lost answer to the group’s prayers at that time.

As for “Where Is It I Belong,” I like the ballad aspect of it for Mary’s sake. She sounds good, though she’d admittedly had better ballads released between 1970-1977. I think the song needed more lyrical work and maybe a key change at some point modulating up towards the end. Those who want to gripe about the “he was Capricorn and a love was born” lyric should remember that DRATS sang an entire song about astrology and love, so... one line doesn’t ruin the song—just dates it a bit. I don’t think it was intended as a song with single potential, but it’s a good album track.

There were only 10 tracks on the album; it should’ve been filled with 12—and we now know there were still plenty of good songs from recording for this album that were left in the can.

Two years later, the Floaters also out of Detroit had a number one Pop hit with "Float On". Each member of the group introduced themselves by first giving their Zodiac sign.....ugh! LOL!

[danman869]

I think The Supremes’ biggest mistake by late 1972 and through mid-1973 was that they went backwards for their shows. As many people have expressed here, they should have sat down, taken a closer look at what was working, what wasn’t, and then moved FORWARD. I love the classic Supremes music, but they were rearranging it so much while still keeping it in the show, that it I’d bet it was losing its appeal to their live audiences. As has been said before, they should have been focusing on featuring full versions of the ‘70s hits and their album cuts. How about a MOTOWN ‘70s HITS medley or group of full songs sung under that idea? There were plenty of good songs from Jackson 5, Marvin, Stevie, Miracles, and even maybe Diana that they could’ve tackled.

Regarding wardrobe choices, I thought there was still a selection of contemporary gowns being used in addition to the late ‘60s DRATS gowns? They had those chocolate brown/black? pantsuits with the with boas and the white bugle bead “fringe” gowns. Plus JMC did several photo sessions with gowns or outfits we didn’t see in photos onstage. I think with their ‘70s outfits, they were pretty contemporary to other groups, such as The Three Degrees. If anything, the other groups of the day were either imitating their basic look or going for a [[my word) sluttier look. The Supremes never were or should’ve have been marketed “slutty,” so that was a smart choice to avoid giant belly cutouts or high side slits. I agree with someone else [[forgive me forgetting who) who basically said their choice of ball gown styles was not smart. Sleek gowns and pantsuits would’ve been better for showing off disco dance choreography. All this said, by 1976/77, all 1960s era gowns should have been OUT of their wardrobe [[and into storage) and they should’ve stuck to any gowns/outfits from 1974 forward. The black velvet/gold brocade/teardrop pearls gowns [[I won’t be giving it some fantastical fake name!) should have been GONE. If they’d had three super-contemporary outfits/gowns to keep rotating through by 1976-77, that could’ve helped. I know all their old [[late 1960s) wardrobe was designer-made and expensive, but that wasn’t enough [[in my opinion) to warrant their continued use through 1977. Imagine 1970 JMC wearing the simple red velvet gowns DMF wore in late 1964? Pretty gowns, but the style was out. By 1976, why was the group still bothering to wear 1969 designs? These were dramatic stage outfits—not classic, simple outfits that could make the transition through the years [[such as a simple Chanel dress).

[danman869]

Two years later, the Floaters also out of Detroit had a number one Pop hit with "Float On". Each member of the group introduced themselves by first giving their Zodiac sign.....ugh! LOL!

Yeah, it sounds silly [[even somewhat embarrassing) now, but that was contemporary. Go to a bar/disco in the mid ‘70s and that’s what many people were asking one another to find a connection. I also think of the back of the Vandellas’ “Black Magic” album—each girl had their astrology sign detailed and that was early 1972!

[luke]

I recall they wore those black pants and silverish blouses on Dinah Shore and I think another show. I always thought they looked good

[danman869]

I recall they wore those black pants and silverish blouses on Dinah Shore and I think another show. I always thought they looked good

Luke, I think those continued to work from 1970/71 because they were simple and not overly dated. If they’d had collars that reached down to mid-chest, for example, they would’ve looked dumb by 1975. Using those for years wasn’t a bad choice—especially for a daytime talk show.

[sup_fan]

agree that Bend A Little wasn't a lost hit. to me, it's generic disco. any group could have sung it and done fine. perfectly fine to include as an album track.

Can We Love Again should have been the Mary ballad on Sup 75. although it could use a little touch up on the choruses, it helps broaden mary's songs. she had done plenty of true ballads up to this point and so something with a little more of a beat would have helped showcase more of her range.

Seed of love was a pretty good track, although the title is a bit touch-in-cheek hehehe

There was ample material to do a solid pop album in early 75

it's all been said
can't stop a girl
color my world
give out
you turn me around

shoop shoop
where is it i belong
seed of love
can we love again
sha la bandit

then they could have done a disco lp, done a little extended remixes and had something like:

he's My man
early morning
this is why
where do i go

I can never recover
Bend a little
dance fever
mr boogie

[kenneth]

Yeah, it sounds silly [[even somewhat embarrassing) now, but that was contemporary. Go to a bar/disco in the mid ‘70s and that’s what many people were asking one another to find a connection. I also think of the back of the Vandellas’ “Black Magic” album—each girl had their astrology sign detailed and that was early 1972!

I had a laminated poster on wood of the Gemini Twins! Actually, I wish I still had it!

[bradsupremes]

I know everyone loved “It’s All Been Said Before” and thought it could have hit, but I think “The Sha-La Bandit” had strong potential. It’s a shame it was canned. Around this time there seemed to a little throwback to the late 50s/early 60s sound in songs. “The Sha-La Bandit” had a similar throwback feel with the “sha-la-la’s” and it’s a shame Motown didn’t take notice and give the song a chance.

[marv2]

This one my favorites from that set in 1975. Extended here:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9wVwIri6kE

[midnightman]

You’re right. It all goes back to direction. I think after the promotion of the Floy Joy material with Lynda’s entrance and seeing how poorly “Your Wonderful Sweet Sweet Love” charted [[should have charted much higher in my book), Motown, the girls, their manager, etc all should have sit down and planned out their next steps. If Jimmy Webb came in with idea to do their next album much like what he would do a few years later for the 5th Dimension on the Earthbound album then I’d say go for it. But the direction that he proposed and its sound was totally wrong for what they needed. By this time a lot of Motown artists, songwriters, and producers were jumping ship. I know Norman Whitfield was getting close to departing, but I have to wonder what he could have brought to the girls’ sound in path of Rose Royce’s “Ooo Boy.” Maybe if the girls paired with Stevie sooner it could have put a little more wind into the sails. I know Motown was against bringing in outside people, but maybe pairing them with Curtis Mayfield could have relit the fire. I know we can’t change the past, but it does make you wonder if it had been done differently what the rest could have been.

When the Supremes began being produced by Stevie, it was too little too late... I mean it could've worked but Motown never took Stevie's productions outside his own work seriously. We saw the way Syreeta's albums were treated and Stevie put his footprint on them.

[midnightman]

Yeah, it sounds silly [[even somewhat embarrassing) now, but that was contemporary. Go to a bar/disco in the mid ‘70s and that’s what many people were asking one another to find a connection. I also think of the back of the Vandellas’ “Black Magic” album—each girl had their astrology sign detailed and that was early 1972!

Not to mention a lot of artists who got on Soul Train and when the dancers would interviewed them, they'd say what their sign was and you hear a lot of "yeah right ons!". LOL

[midnightman]

I know everyone loved “It’s All Been Said Before” and thought it could have hit, but I think “The Sha-La Bandit” had strong potential. It’s a shame it was canned. Around this time there seemed to a little throwback to the late 50s/early 60s sound in songs. “The Sha-La Bandit” had a similar throwback feel with the “sha-la-la’s” and it’s a shame Motown didn’t take notice and give the song a chance.

This was the 1974-75 period. Yeah it could've worked if anyone besides Berry cared enough to push them. Motown was at a different phase than it was and it's a shame. Ewart Abner, dude... *sigh* I do like their version of Sha-La Bandit though.

[marv2]

I think we can all agree that the quality of talent and the quality of the music the Supremes produce was not lacking in any regard. The situation with the record company is where the problems really were.

[luke]

I didn’t like it’s all been said before ...strange song. Loved Sha la la version with all 3 ladies singing lead. Could have been a left field hit.

[blackguy69]

https://www.facebook.com/116876608331965/videos/373958532648147/
we were talking about IGIMTM so here that live version from 1972

[gman]

IGIMTM is one of Jeans masterpieces [[along with 5.30 Plane.... and that's all the pos. vibe I can give to the JW tracks!)….the song was performed LIVE on TV at least 3 times....and each time Jean nailed it...my pers. fave is the Soul Train clip...I've said it before...IGIMTM needed to be marketed and broke first on AC/Light Rock, and then it could have crossed into the broader Pop charts. It's acoustic guitar intro is right in time with much of the singer/songwriter material of the time....Bad Weather was too jazz tinged for AM pop airplay...the horns today actually sound like a bad attempt at Stax, and the hokey choreography was laughable...especially in gowns....Touch should have been followed with either Have I Lost You or Here Comes The Sunrise....after NJ they were the most radio friendly cuts on an excellent LP...the male voice on YWSSL is distracting and unnecessary...a percussion break and instrumental re-build up would have been enough.

[daviddh]

Motown really dropped th ball i.e.. "Bend A Little". Why this song was left in the can I will never understand
amen, i totally agree, when i heard this song i thought OMG WTF.what dumbazz left this in the can

[daviddh]

imo, there were a lot of reason why the supremes were having problems.
first, BG was closing down the detroit location and opening a new office in LA. wasnt Floy Joy one of the last albums to be recorded in detroit?
to me, this was a major set back not only for the supremes but for motown all together.in a few years after,almost every artist would leave motown. BG left everyone behind except a few.
the group also was suffering internally. i think Jean wanted out and Lynda left almost the same time. having the ladies sing Youre No Body till somebody loves you.....WTF. seriously.
but motown made mistakes with diana as well as the supremes. motown released the album EIE in 1970 ,but the single IM STILL WAITING a year later. they made poor decisions, and again with her lp Baby Its Me. it was like the left hand didn't know what the right hand was doing. just stupid mistakes.
to me BG no longer had his eye on the mark.
ultimately Motown did just about everyone in, but, the ladies not getting along didn't help. I think Motown was done with them and hoped they would go away.
looking back on it now, I think ,perhaps, the ladies were tired of MEN , telling them what to do or not to do. I think that had a lot to do with DR leaving. looking back,you have to give MW credit for standing up for herself and the group. but somehow there was to much drama going on within the group.

[Jimi LaLumia]

the greatest malady for The 70's Supremes and solo Diana Ross was The Ed Sullivan Show leaving the airways; it was their showcase to let the hard core fans know that a new single had been released , as there was no internet back then.

[daviddh]

the greatest malady for The 70's Supremes and solo Diana Ross was The Ed Sullivan Show leaving the airways; it was their showcase to let the hard core fans know that a new single had been released , as there was no internet back then.
Jim, I totally agree, and with BG refusing to let DR do her solo spot on Sullivan, ig mistake. Sullivan got ticked off and cancelled the Supremes appearance for Stoned Love with the Four Tops. I don't think the Supremes were ever back on or , mybe even any Motown artist after

[milven]

here is a bit of an explanation about the lip syncing on the Sullivan Show, which was mostly still live


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ngRXORGZjw&feature=youtu.be&t=26m25s

[milven]

Jim, I totally agree, and with BG refusing to let DR do her solo spot on Sullivan, ig mistake. Sullivan got ticked off and cancelled the Supremes appearance for Stoned Love with the Four Tops. I don't think the Supremes were ever back on or , mybe even any Motown artist after


Plus the fact that Sullivan was abruptly cancelled in March of 1971 without notice to Sullivan and the show simply showed reruns for the balance of the season. When Ed was told about the CBS decision by his producer/son-in law Bob Prect, Ed said “Well I’ll be a son of a bitch…after all I’ve done for the network over the years”.

Ed's show was part of the CBS rural purge when they cancelled such popular shows as “The Red Skelton Show” “The Jackie Gleason Show” “The Beverly Hillbillies”, “Green Acres”, “Petticoat Junction” and “Hee Haw”. CBS “rural purge” was based on the idea of dumping the older shows in search of the younger audience that advertisers would pay more for.

Then there is the fact that Ed was already suffering the earlier signs of dementia. Perhaps that explains his intro of the Supremes as "Here they are....the girls".

Considering that Ed's show had been on since the very beginning of TV in 1948, I think it was heartless for the show to be abruptly cancelled as it was. He was not even able to do a proper farewell show. It could have been the rating sensation of the year. Ed Sullivan deserved better than the treatment he received by CBS’s managers in his final days there.

He died three years later in 1974

[blackguy69]

Jim, I totally agree, and with BG refusing to let DR do her solo spot on Sullivan, ig mistake. Sullivan got ticked off and cancelled the Supremes appearance for Stoned Love with the Four Tops. I don't think the Supremes were ever back on or , mybe even any Motown artist afterthe temptations and Gladys Knight and the pips were in there

[marybrewster]

and i think the sounds is quite pretty. i like the simplicity and all.

but a pretty song doesn't always equal a hit. i think as the song is, it should have charted FAR higher than it did. sure maybe it would never have been a #1, or maybe if they'd tweaked it a few ways it might have been better. but my take on why it failed in fall of 72 is as stated above. i think the group's then-current recording reputation was rapidly diminishing, radio programmers were thinking no one really cares much about them any more, the public and press were wondering why so many girls were in the group and meanwhile motown was focused elsewhere.

that's why the record didn't get played on radio much, IMO

I think Mary mentions this very same thing in SUPREME FAITH: I'm paraphrasing here, but a local DJ says something to the effect that the Supremes are no longer recording and that there no original members. I'M SURE SOMEONE WILL CORRECT ME IF I AM WRONG LOL. He goes on to play "Tossin'" from JW.

But I think the general consensus was that the Supremes had started to fade with their outdated imagage: bouffant wigs and 40 pound sequined gowns, while Roberta Flack is flying up the charts in her afro and polyester slacks.

[kenneth]

I think Mary mentions this very same thing in SUPREME FAITH: I'm paraphrasing here, but a local DJ says something to the effect that the Supremes are no longer recording and that there no original members. I'M SURE SOMEONE WILL CORRECT ME IF I AM WRONG LOL. He goes on to play "Tossin'" from JW.

But I think the general consensus was that the Supremes had started to fade with their outdated imagage: bouffant wigs and 40 pound sequined gowns, while Roberta Flack is flying up the charts in her afro and polyester slacks.

Yes, I remember that story from Mary's second book. Mary heard the DJ make those remarks and then called him. I think the DJ also mentions they don't have the recent single [[would that have been "Bad Weather"?) so they played the album track from JW.

[blackguy69]

Yes, I remember that story from Mary's second book. Mary heard the DJ make those remarks and then called him. I think the DJ also mentions they don't have the recent single [[would that have been "Bad Weather"?) so they played the album track from JW. I think it was when IGIMTM was current

[midnightman]

Jim, I totally agree, and with BG refusing to let DR do her solo spot on Sullivan, ig mistake. Sullivan got ticked off and cancelled the Supremes appearance for Stoned Love with the Four Tops. I don't think the Supremes were ever back on or , mybe even any Motown artist after

He booked Gladys Knight & the Pips around that time when they did "If I Were Your Woman"... I think them and the Temptations [[with a departing Eddie Kendricks) were the last Motown acts booked on Sullivan before the show ended its run in 1971.

[midnightman]

I think Mary mentions this very same thing in SUPREME FAITH: I'm paraphrasing here, but a local DJ says something to the effect that the Supremes are no longer recording and that there no original members. I'M SURE SOMEONE WILL CORRECT ME IF I AM WRONG LOL. He goes on to play "Tossin'" from JW.

But I think the general consensus was that the Supremes had started to fade with their outdated imagage: bouffant wigs and 40 pound sequined gowns, while Roberta Flack is flying up the charts in her afro and polyester slacks.

1972 was the the end of the Supremes as a relevant musical act of their time, I always say. I admire Mary for trying to keep them going but it was rough.

[marv2]

1972 was the the end of the Supremes as a relevant musical act of their time, I always say. I admire Mary for trying to keep them going but it was rough.

How and why did you pick that particular year?

[jobeterob]

I don’t know how anyone could expect a hit with songs like I Guess I’ll Miss The Man and especially Bad Weather. Jean’s vocal on miss the man was great but it’s just a very plain song and was never going to be a big hit. Plus it sounded like a solo act.

Why release that when it could have been 530 Plane?

When an act starts to fade and stops bringing in money, no record company will keep pumping money into a losing proposition. They didn’t with the Supremes, Martha Reeves; RCA didn’t with Diana Ross when she turned 40

[Bluebrock]

1972 was the the end of the Supremes as a relevant musical act of their time, I always say. I admire Mary for trying to keep them going but it was rough.
You are probably correct when you say the Supremes ceased to be a relevant musical act by 1972, but i stuck by them until Jean and Lynda's departure which i think was 1973? By that time it was all over but the shouting as the song goes.

[TheMotownManiac]

By 1972 it was clear that The Supremes had slipped in popularity a lot. Their albums were not important new releases, their gigs were way lower in size and price and the turmoil in the group made DR&TS look like a love-in. There’s no reason to point Fingers - it was over. Lynda brought a new vivacity to the group - but it was ANOTHER change and the one that, I think, did them in. When Mary Wilson was the only recognizable Supreme on an album, the general population had no interest in going to a concert of a group with no giant hits. At the time, I was getting to know them personally, so as great as that was, it also burst my bubble about the group and show business. Jean was always nice to me, but she was not always nice to Mary and Mary was trying so hard to get along. I don’t think that showed on TV or on-stage, but only die-hards we’re still into the group. They did no concerts anymore as headliners in arenas or auditoriums that I knew of. Everything was split bills or they opened. They still got some club dates as the headliners, but those venues were deteriorating the pay scale. It was over then. A new, big something was needed but never came. They needed Lady Marmalade- not Floy Joy.

[jobeterob]

That’s not great to hear Jean didn’t treat Mary well; it shows a different side of Mary

Floy Joy was fine but pretty lightweight; it had good points but it was clear it was no Where Did Our Love Go or Stop in the Name of Love

[daviddh]

i liked FJ , and thought it was good , fun. but the hits were fewer n fewer and the tv appearances the same.
I think Jean and Mary had issues for a while. not exactly sure why, but I think it was professional.

[daviddh]

I don't think that the wigs or gowns had anything to do with it. it didn't bother Dianas career. the bottom line was NO HITS. they needed hits and to update the show. NO Your nobody till somebody loves u. wow. cant believe Motown had them still doing that routine.

[PeaceNHarmony]

We should have a separate thread dealing with the post-Jean 'Supremes' flame-out. Lots of us have cut-and-pasted :o oft-repeated thoughts, so who am I to veer? Apres les Jean, simply stated: nobody in the record-buying public shave a git. Nobody recognized any of the 'Supremes' as Supremes - they were three random, middle-aged ladies flailin' & wailin'. They were yodelin' as if their lives depended on it, but that style was not what the record buying public wanted. Except for 15 or so posters who ended up here.

[sup_fan]

^oh lawd lol i'd love to start a thread and INTELLIGENTLY discuss our theories for the problems with the group in the mid and later 70s. but seems like that always turns into some sort of heated argument

[daviddh]

i think its a bit common sense, mary was the only original left, she was used to being a supremes and how things were. when the other ladies joined and wanted to express themselves and update the show, she was unwilling to bend and therefore problems began and continued. Cindy survived mostly by just going along with things. the other ladies did not have the loyality to the name that Mary had. I am sure there were times when MW was right but other times when she was not.
but once again how many Temptations has there been???? why did some leave??
it seems drama stays with the ladies. to bad there wasn't a way to work things out as the JMC line up was very good

[midnightman]

By 1972 it was clear that The Supremes had slipped in popularity a lot. Their albums were not important new releases, their gigs were way lower in size and price and the turmoil in the group made DR&TS look like a love-in. There’s no reason to point Fingers - it was over. Lynda brought a new vivacity to the group - but it was ANOTHER change and the one that, I think, did them in. When Mary Wilson was the only recognizable Supreme on an album, the general population had no interest in going to a concert of a group with no giant hits. At the time, I was getting to know them personally, so as great as that was, it also burst my bubble about the group and show business. Jean was always nice to me, but she was not always nice to Mary and Mary was trying so hard to get along. I don’t think that showed on TV or on-stage, but only die-hards we’re still into the group. They did no concerts anymore as headliners in arenas or auditoriums that I knew of. Everything was split bills or they opened. They still got some club dates as the headliners, but those venues were deteriorating the pay scale. It was over then. A new, big something was needed but never came. They needed Lady Marmalade- not Floy Joy.

And that's why we need discussion like this because going on assumptions doesn't help. I can imagine how taxing it was on Mary to keep a group afloat and it's tougher when people don't get along with you. Which is a shame because Jean brought something to that group. If they were more united, they would've kicked everyone's a$$.

[PeaceNHarmony]

i think its a bit common sense, mary was the only original left, she was used to being a supremes and how things were. when the other ladies joined and wanted to express themselves and update the show, she was unwilling to bend and therefore problems began and continued. Cindy survived mostly by just going along with things. the other ladies did not have the loyality to the name that Mary had. I am sure there were times when MW was right but other times when she was not.
but once again how many Temptations has there been???? why did some leave??
it seems drama stays with the ladies. to bad there wasn't a way to work things out as the JMC line up was very good
I believe the difference with the Temptations is that the group had more than one lead singer from the beginning and the public at large did not specifically identify with one personality in the way that they did with Diana. Additionally 5 members as opposed to 3 made changes in line-up less visible.

[luckyluckyme]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8SSHr9hyv8A

[blackguy69]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8SSHr9hyv8A
The video was already posted

[luckyluckyme]

The video was already posted

Sorry if it has already been posted. I looked on this thread but could not find this rendition. You graciously gave us another fine performance at post #84.

The Supremes Archives where this was just posted yesterday gives this description:

This is cleaned up version with the right speed and pitch. The girls always did a great job with this song, and in my honest opinion the JML line-up did the best and clearest harmonies The Supremes ever had!

[marv2]

You're mixing regions. Without and Reach were only international releases. they were not in the US. the singles RELEASED on the US were

Automatically Sunshine - 4/11/72
YWSSL - 7/11/72
I Guess - Oct 72 [[not sure why no sources can list the date of the month - anyone??)

internationally the release schedule was:
Floy Joy - Feb 72
Without - May 72
Auto - June 72
Reach - Nov 72
YWSSL - Nov 72

Internationally, I Guess wasn't released until Jan 74. As for FJ in the states, yes i agree that you have a point that it's charting activity was in 72 and not 71. And the girls promoted it on Merv in Jan 72. but technically, the single was released on 12/1. there certainly were other singles that started to chart within weeks or even days of release. FJ obviously took a little time to warm up. but it was a 71 release.

Uh excuse me, but I didn't say sh*t about regions, international, nation, domestic or anything like that. YOU DID! I said that they had 6 releases in 1972. Maybe I should have been clearer and said on the Planet Earth, that way you would not have felt the need to put words in my mouth!

[marv2]

Sorry if it has already been posted. I looked on this thread but could not find this rendition. You graciously gave us another fine performance at post #84.

The Supremes Archives where this was just posted yesterday gives this description:

This is cleaned up version with the right speed and pitch. The girls always did a great job with this song, and in my honest opinion the JML line-up did the best and clearest harmonies The Supremes ever had!

Thank you for this Luckyluckyme. They sound great here!

[TheMotownManiac]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8SSHr9hyv8A

Ive never heard this one before and it’s exquisite! THIS should have been the single. They sing like angels here and Jean is sublime. THANK YOU!

[blackguy69]

PO
Sorry if it has already been posted. I looked on this thread but could not find this rendition. You graciously gave us another fine performance at post #84.

The Supremes Archives where this was just posted yesterday gives this description:

This is cleaned up version with the right speed and pitch. The girls always did a great job with this song, and in my honest opinion the JML line-up did the best and clearest harmonies The Supremes ever had! both are from the same show only difference is He slowed it down ��

[sup_fan]

Uh excuse me, but I didn't say sh*t about regions, international, nation, domestic or anything like that. YOU DID! I said that they had 6 releases in 1972. Maybe I should have been clearer and said on the Planet Earth, that way you would not have felt the need to put words in my mouth!

Whatever Marv - i can think of something else to put in your mouth beside words

14963

[marv2]

Whatever Marv - i can think of something else to put in your mouth beside words

14963
Back at you!

[blackguy69]

Yo kids give it a rest

[midnightman]

Yo kids give it a rest

Thank you! Come on people...

[kenneth]

Yeah kids calm down! Was that really Joan Rivers in that photo? Wow, I never remember her looking like that!

[sup_fan]

yeah it's a fav pic of mine of joan lol. originally i found it online after she passed and someone had written "I can still see your ugly dresses from hell you whores!!" nearly died laughing when i ran across it lol

[TomatoTom123]

LOLOLOLOLOLOL

is what I have to add :D