Follow Ups - feast or flop

[sup_fan]

throughout their careers, motown tried to use a policy of "if it's a success, try to repeat it" sometimes that worked, sometimes not.

Was recently watching On Broadway and lord, that's a hot mess. sure the Leading Lady medley is great. and the sups are rather fierce doing Porgy and Bess. but most of the rest of the show is dreck. and this after the stunning TCB tv debut. Broadway = Flop

And of course we all know about Living in Shame - flop

but then there's the magic of Come See About Me, which was actually recorded before Baby Love and more closely resembles Where, IMO. Feast

im amazed as how sometimes it worked. many times it didnt

[rovereab]

Not sure about a feast, but the success of all the singles pulled from the Reach Out album warrants being called a banquet :)

[lucky2012]

Rarely, soundalike follow-ups are even better.
It's The Same Old Song > I Can't Help Myself [[imho)

And yeah, way in the opposite direction, Living In Shame = belly flop

[sup_fan]

Rover - lol i was trying to find another F word to go with flop lolol.

[sup_fan]

What would everyone have wanted as a follow up to TCB? i get it that they didn't want to just rehash and the groups standing around and singing their hits. they wanted to do something different

and while the skits might not have aged well, at the time that style of entertainment was more acceptable and common.

[bradsupremes]

How is "I'm Living In Shame" a flop? It was a top 10 hit! I call it the forgotten hit because it's always overlooked. Some of the lyrics are off a bit, but otherwise it's got a great track and melody. It may not hold up to "Love Child," but it certainly wasn't a bad single such as "The Composer." The only reason why it wasn't performed after its charting was that Diana didn't like singing the song. So it was taken out of their live shows after it hit.

On Broadway was a huge flop. It's real purpose was to showcase Diana as a versatile singer/actress, but let's face it...the skits were junk as was the acting by everyone. Motown should have stuck to the TCB format of putting the groups in front of a live audience performing their duets together. "The Weight" could have done better on the charts if it was performed.

"Forever Came Today" had a "Reflections" vibe to it. Of course it did poorly on the charts, but I don't think it had anything to do with it being a bad song. To me, it's the best single the Supremes and HDH did. It was just too complex and too sophisticated for pop radio.

I always wondered how "Going Down For The Third Time" would have charted if it was a follow-up to "You Keep Me Hangin' On." Both are rocking tracks. I feel it would have been a huge hit going to number one.

[johnny_raven]

G.I.T. review from Nov 13, 1969 [[the day after it aired)

14851

[sup_fan]

well i guess i'm being generous calling Shame a flop. yes it did chart well. but i think that's more due to the titillating title. the backing track is great but the lyrics are nonsense and i think ruin the song. so i dub it more of an artistic flop than a monetary or charting flop

[sup_fan]

G.I.T. review from Nov 13, 1969 [[the day after it aired)

14851

the whole thing just seems shoddy and rushed. the open medley is weak and the Temps Fiddler medley is one of the most horrid things waxed at motown. the unreleased Supremes medley of Let's Do It is ok but not the best thing they've ever sung either.

this sort of defines Motown follow up to me. put huge effort and work in the first and then rush and slap together a follow up. rather than just take a little more time and get it right

[mowest]

I always wondered how "Going Down For The Third Time" would have charted if it was a follow-up to "You Keep Me Hangin' On." Both are rocking tracks. I feel it would have been a huge hit going to number one.

Putting “Going Down...” on the flip side of “Reflections” was, I think, a major blunder for Motown. If it had been released as an A side it would have been a Top 5 smash, if not #1. What a missed opportunity!

[lakedistrictlad1]

And on the subject of the Supremes and the Temptations, 'Diana Ross & The Supremes join the Temptations' album was superb. Even with the covers. But 'Together' was a real let down.
That could just me my opinion of course.

[rovereab]

Putting “Going Down...” on the flip side of “Reflections” was, I think, a major blunder for Motown. If it had been released as an A side it would have been a Top 5 smash, if not #1. What a missed opportunity!

So agree with this point. At the time it made no sense and even on reflection years later it still doesn't.

[rovereab]

And on the subject of the Supremes and the Temptations, 'Diana Ross & The Supremes join the Temptations' album was superb. Even with the covers. But 'Together' was a real let down.
That could just me my opinion of course.

Agreed, but for me there is one absolute standout track on Together, Why [[Must We Fall In Love). Everything about this song is spot on.

[floyjoy678]

I'm Living In Shame in corny garbage. I'm surprised it charted as high as it did, well it was riding off the coattails of Love Child so not too surprised.

[jobucats]

Putting “Going Down...” on the flip side of “Reflections” was, I think, a major blunder for Motown. If it had been released as an A side it would have been a Top 5 smash, if not #1. What a missed opportunity!

I agree that "Goin' Down for the Third Time" would have had a great potential as single, however, only if it were remixed/remastered to give it more punch. In my opinion, although it's a favorite of mine, it has a rather bland sound and appears to need more compression in the mix to bring out a more driving instrumental backing. Another way of putting it would be that the mix is too sterile sounding as opposed to gritty/booming sounding.

[sup_fan]

Agreed, but for me there is one absolute standout track on Together, Why [[Must We Fall In Love). Everything about this song is spot on.

agreed! it's a great song and should have definitely been a US single

[sup_fan]

I agree that "Goin' Down for the Third Time" would have had a great potential as single, however, only if it were remixed/remastered to give it more punch. In my opinion, although it's a favorite of mine, it has a rather bland sound and appears to need more compression in the mix to bring out a more driving instrumental backing. Another way of putting it would be that the mix is too sterile sounding as opposed to gritty/booming sounding.

my thoughts is that the girls recorded so many strong songs in early/mid 66 that could have done very, very well. but Gordy was right to ONLY release absolute #1 records. by the time YCHL and YKMHO were released, the moment for these other great songs had passed and it was time to do something else.

[RanRan79]

What would everyone have wanted as a follow up to TCB? i get it that they didn't want to just rehash and the groups standing around and singing their hits. they wanted to do something different

and while the skits might not have aged well, at the time that style of entertainment was more acceptable and common.

TCB worked. It should've been followed up with something of the same format, letting the two groups do what they did the best. Plus everyone would've tuned in to see the two groups perform "I'm Gonna Make You Love Me" and other numbers from the first duet album. But Gordy's mind was strictly on doing whatever he thought necessary to showcase Diana's range of talents. With hindsight I find fault in that because it was a missed opportunity to give us fans something we could enjoy year after year, and instead we got GIT which I think I may [[may) have only watched all the way through once. The show's only real redeeming factor is Diana's Leading Lady medley. She killed that. But I understand Gordy's reasons at the time. His only reason for living was to see what Diana Ross SUPERSTAR could do to help him realize his own dreams, and GIT was as good a vehicle as any for showing the world that Diana was more than a singer.

[RanRan79]

well i guess i'm being generous calling Shame a flop. yes it did chart well. but i think that's more due to the titillating title. the backing track is great but the lyrics are nonsense and i think ruin the song. so i dub it more of an artistic flop than a monetary or charting flop

It wasn't a chart flop, but it was an artistic flop. The song sucks. No one really seems to like it now and I find it hard to believe that anyone liked it then. But like a lot of bad decisions, people couldn't help themselves only to wake up the next day wondering "what the f...", but by then Motown had a top 10 song and a little extra cash. Of the post Flo Supremes singles "Shame" is IMO the one song that is really not a good song. "Somethings", "Composer", "No Matter", "Forever", they ultimately went nowhere and didn't have anything near the success of "Shame", but all three are leaps and bounds better songs. Leaps and bounds. "I'm Livin In Shame" is a flop.

[RanRan79]

And on the subject of the Supremes and the Temptations, 'Diana Ross & The Supremes join the Temptations' album was superb. Even with the covers. But 'Together' was a real let down.
That could just me my opinion of course.

Together had some great moments on it, but I'm agreement, it was a let down as a followup.

[RanRan79]

I agree that "Goin' Down for the Third Time" would have had a great potential as single, however, only if it were remixed/remastered to give it more punch. In my opinion, although it's a favorite of mine, it has a rather bland sound and appears to need more compression in the mix to bring out a more driving instrumental backing. Another way of putting it would be that the mix is too sterile sounding as opposed to gritty/booming sounding.

Agreed. It needed punching up. As is I think it would've easily gone top 10, but to claim the big prize, it needed some extra work. And it didn't need those extra "save me, save me" by the Andantes. Totally unnecessary.

[RanRan79]

my thoughts is that the girls recorded so many strong songs in early/mid 66 that could have done very, very well. but Gordy was right to ONLY release absolute #1 records. by the time YCHL and YKMHO were released, the moment for these other great songs had passed and it was time to do something else.

I disagree here. "Going Down" doesn't have a dated sound to me, that it would be passed over for single consideration because of when it was recorded. In fact, I might venture to say that it's the one song from that 1966 crop that sounded like the current Motown trend of spring 1967. Again the song would've needed some punching up, but the elements were present for a classic, successful record. The ear catching intro of Flo and Mary, Diana's aggressive lead, the Funks tearing it up. I think it had a strong possibility of becoming the girls' 5th number one in a row [[again) if done right.

As far as Gordy's "only number one records" rule, he apparently ditched that the minute "In and Out of Love" was greenlit for release that fall, so even if "Going" didn't hit number one that spring, it wouldn't have been too big a deal.

[RanRan79]

"Hangin On" was an excellent followup to "Hurry". I think "Love Is Here" [[one of my absolute favorite Supremes songs) had the potential to go either way. It was either going to be a number one hit or a real flop. I can't see it stalling somewhere in the top 10. People were either going to love it or hate it.

Besides "In and Out of Love" not sounding like a hit to me, it seems like such a step backwards after the masterpiece that was "Reflections". Only now am I wondering if it's possible that had "Forever Came Today" followed "Reflections" in place of "In and Out", if "Forever" would've done better.

"Everybody's Got the Right to Love" was a horrible followup to "Up the Ladder". I would've either gone with "I Got Hurt" or "Then We Can Try Again", though I think I lean more toward "I Got Hurt". I'm not a fan of "Baby Baby" or "Wait a Minute" or "Take a Closer Look", but all three songs would've been on my radar for consideration as the followup to "Ladder" before I ever thought about "Everybody's".

[mowest]

I agree that "Goin' Down for the Third Time" would have had a great potential as single, however, only if it were remixed/remastered to give it more punch. In my opinion, although it's a favorite of mine, it has a rather bland sound and appears to need more compression in the mix to bring out a more driving instrumental backing. Another way of putting it would be that the mix is too sterile sounding as opposed to gritty/booming sounding.

Do you think that the extended version of “Going Down...” on the expanded “...Sing Holland Dozier and Holland” is an “improved” version soundwise over the earlier ones? If so, what should we listen for? Thanks.

[lakedistrictlad1]

agreed! it's a great song and should have definitely been a US single

I always thought 'Why must we fall in love' was a U.S single. It just missed the top 30 in the U.K. it should have been a bigger hit.

[sup_fan]

I always thought 'Why must we fall in love' was a U.S single. It just missed the top 30 in the U.K. it should have been a bigger hit.

Nope. It was only released internationally.

Earlier in the thread someone suggested the second Tv special should have just focused on the duets. That might have worked. If they really did a bunch of selections from the two lps. I think they could have done a larger medley of trading off each other’s hits. Similar to Sullivan show.

The groups had both done some concept albums. So they could have done some non Motown stuff. Or maybe one quality medley of show tunes to add variety

[sup_fan]

I disagree here. "Going Down" doesn't have a dated sound to me, that it would be passed over for single consideration because of when it was recorded. In fact, I might venture to say that it's the one song from that 1966 crop that sounded like the current Motown trend of spring 1967. Again the song would've needed some punching up, but the elements were present for a classic, successful record. The ear catching intro of Flo and Mary, Diana's aggressive lead, the Funks tearing it up. I think it had a strong possibility of becoming the girls' 5th number one in a row [[again) if done right.

As far as Gordy's "only number one records" rule, he apparently ditched that the minute "In and Out of Love" was greenlit for release that fall, so even if "Going" didn't hit number one that spring, it wouldn't have been too big a deal.

After HDH tracks like YKMHO, reflections, reach out and Bernadette, Going is not pushing the envelope or breaking new ground. Although I agree it’s better than In and Out. But after the producers had done so much w the tops and sups they would have needed to keep pushing things. Going did push things

[jobucats]

Do you think that the extended version of “Going Down...” on the expanded “...Sing Holland Dozier and Holland” is an “improved” version soundwise over the earlier ones? If so, what should we listen for? Thanks.

Hey, I went back and listened to the extended version of "Going Down" and still the instrumental appears anemic [[in my opinion) compared with other aggressive singles that were being released by Motown. What I am missing is that thumping bass sound and booming kick drum sound. From the first time I heard the song, I thought, "Great song, however, it doesn't sound like it was recorded in the Snakepit." When I learned that many instrumental tracks were recorded out in California, I thought this might have been one.

[RanRan79]

After HDH tracks like YKMHO, reflections, reach out and Bernadette, Going is not pushing the envelope or breaking new ground. Although I agree it’s better than In and Out. But after the producers had done so much w the tops and sups they would have needed to keep pushing things. Going did push things

In my timeline, "Going Down" gets released before "Reflections" and after "The Happening". I would've had the song remixed and shipped out in June, in time to be a summer hit. "Reflections" gets released in the fall in place of "In and Out". "Forever Came Today" follows up "Reflections" and "In and Out" becomes an album track.

[144man]

I think "Going Down.." is a strong song, but not different enough to have been one of the Supremes' very biggest hits.

[rovereab]

Just a point of consideration with respect to Going Down For The Third Time.......

Would the title have been deemed a little "risque" at the time or did the phrase only gain its risque meaning in later years? If risque at the time then that might explain it not being an A-side. After all, some of Love Hangover's lyrics were left out of the mix until recent years, I assume, so as to not come across as risque.

[sup_fan]

In and Out of Love [[plus some of the other "California Sunshine Pop" songs on the album) needed something more. some of the top groups in CA Pop were the Mama's and the Papa's, Beach Boys, 5th Dimension. and one thing that they shared was very strong and prominent group harmonies. in several other threads i've talked about how i've grown to appreciate the Reflections lp as i've studied it and learned more about the tunes, era, what else was going on, etc. I don't know if this was a conscience effort or not but the end result is a pretty decent tribute to the music scenes from CA - psychedelic from San Fran and Sunshine from LA. sort of a "Supremes tribute to our friends in CA"

But for the Sups to succeed in Sunshine, they needed to better capture the sound. perhaps if the recordings were much more 3-part harmony focused or more trading of lines between group members, it might have worked more. but of course that would be out of sync with Berry's goal to separate and launch Diana

[mowest]

[QUOTE=sup_fan;490880]In and Out of Love [[plus some of the other "California Sunshine Pop" songs on the album) needed something more.

Perhaps that “something more” was the original instrumental track recorded in Detroit instead of the the one on the released version.

[TomatoTom123]

I think "Going Down For The Third Time" is a great song but can't see it being a #1 hit. "In And Out Of Love" is definitely a pop hit to my ears.

[sup_fan]

[QUOTE=sup_fan;490880]In and Out of Love [[plus some of the other "California Sunshine Pop" songs on the album) needed something more.

Perhaps that “something more” was the original instrumental track recorded in Detroit instead of the the one on the released version.

I think ur right. A more driving powerful backing track from the Funk Bros could have made the difference. That and F and M background s

[marybrewster]

UP THE LADDER was a glorious debut for the "new" Supremes, followed by the dismal EGTRTL. Whomever left "Life Beats" in the can and not as the follow up should be ashamed.

[sup_fan]

^totally agree that Everybody was a weak follow up to Ladder. the concept is great but the production is so plodding and boring. I think Loving Country should have followed ladder. Then Stone Love. Life Beats would have been a cool track to include in New Ways and possibly as a follow up to Stone. I think Together We Can Make should have been a single too. Maybe Stone then Together and then Life.

I love Time To Break Down but i wonder if it would have worked on radio or as a single. exquisite track but not sure that it works as a radio-friendly 3 min piece

[johnjeb]

UP THE LADDER was a glorious debut for the "new" Supremes, followed by the dismal EGTRTL. Whomever left "Life Beats" in the can and not as the follow up should be ashamed.

Yes Life Beats should have been the follow-up to Ladder. If not that, then it should have been Make Sweet Music. Bill would have worked, too, but it was wasted as a B-side.

I think the company policy of giving the next single release to the producer who had the last hit on an artist sometimes worked against the artist and company. Particularly for the top-tier artists, the best song in the can or in production should have been considered, rather than who the producer is. I think the only chance Life Beats had to be released was on Right On since the other albums had songs mostly produced by one person.

[johnjeb]

I love Time To Break Down but I wonder if it would have worked on radio or as a single. Exquisite track but not sure that it works as a radio-friendly 3 min piece

Oh I know, can you imagine listening to it while stuck in traffic on a rainy Monday morning.

[RanRan79]

I think the company policy of giving the next single release to the producer who had the last hit on an artist sometimes worked against the artist and company. Particularly for the top-tier artists, the best song in the can or in production should have been considered, rather than who the producer is.

100 percent agree with this.

[sup_fan]

Yes Life Beats should have been the follow-up to Ladder. If not that, then it should have been Make Sweet Music. Bill would have worked, too, but it was wasted as a B-side.

I think the company policy of giving the next single release to the producer who had the last hit on an artist sometimes worked against the artist and company. Particularly for the top-tier artists, the best song in the can or in production should have been considered, rather than who the producer is. I think the only chance Life Beats had to be released was on Right On since the other albums had songs mostly produced by one person.

but the kings at motown were always the producers and never the artists. producers are the ones that really made the money. And that's what berry was and what he related to.