Merry Clayton talks about someday we’ll be together

[blackguy69]

https://youtu.be/L4qTraTPO5Y

[marv2]

Yeah, I remember reading an interview with Merry Clayton way back in the 70s when she mentions she sang on Someday We'll be Together.

[marv2]

Interesting how many different versions of the story of the recording of this song has been told. One version has Julia and Maxine Waters along with Merry Clayton as the background singers with Johnny Bristol. Johnny Bristol could not remember if the Supremes were on it or not. Cindy Birdsong said that they were suppose to record it, but had to leave town early the next day and it was recorded using session singers.

Ironically, in 1977 Merry Clayton audition for being one of Mary Wilson's background singers. Mary told her she was too good and should concentrate on a solo career. She chose Karen Jackson and Kaaren Ragland instead.

[khansperac]

I don’t like how she implies that the Supremes were like Milli Vanilli on this record. She should have just stated that the background voices were session singers and left it at that. It leads some to believe that they were all faking when that is not the case.

[RanRan79]

She has a very interesting way of telling it. The Waters are supposed to be on background and only within the last year or so did I learn that Merry was with them. I don't buy for a moment that it was all the folks she mentioned, especially Brenda Holloway. I never thought about what it might have been like to go into a recording studio and lay vocals on what you believe will be a song for a single artist only to discover than an entire group is laying claim to your work. The Andantes knew what was up because they had been doing that for years, but the ones on "Someday" probably had no clue and I can imagine they might have been pissed about their vocals being attributed to Mary and Cindy. Milli Vanilli perhaps, but maybe more akin to C&C Music Factory and Martha Wash situation.

[reese]

She has a very interesting way of telling it. The Waters are supposed to be on background and only within the last year or so did I learn that Merry was with them. I don't buy for a moment that it was all the folks she mentioned, especially Brenda Holloway. I never thought about what it might have been like to go into a recording studio and lay vocals on what you believe will be a song for a single artist only to discover than an entire group is laying claim to your work. The Andantes knew what was up because they had been doing that for years, but the ones on "Someday" probably had no clue and I can imagine they might have been pissed about their vocals being attributed to Mary and Cindy. Milli Vanilli perhaps, but maybe more akin to C&C Music Factory and Martha Wash situation.

Originally the track [[vocals and all) was meant for Jr. Walker so that probably would have just been another average session for the ladies. But after it was released by the Supremes, yeah, I could see the background singers being somewhat miffed. Especially after Mary and Cindy lipsynced to it on both THE HOLLYWOOD PALACE and ED SULLIVAN.

[luke]

Well they were hired to sing background and they sang background. They didn’t typically get billing in those days. And later a line on an album cover.

[Boogiedown]

crediting SOMEDAY to The Supremes is the same as crediting LOVE HANGOVER to The Supremes .

[marv2]

crediting SOMEDAY to The Supremes is the same as crediting LOVE HANGOVER to The Supremes .

Well, people credit "Ain''t No Mountain High Enough" to the Supremes. I've even seen where someone labeled "Stoned Love" by "Diana Ross & the Supremes". Go figure.

[Boogiedown]

Well, people credit "Ain''t No Mountain High Enough" to the Supremes. I've even seen where someone labeled "Stoned Love" by "Diana Ross & the Supremes". Go figure.

but not by Motown proper.

[sup_fan]

crediting SOMEDAY to The Supremes is the same as crediting LOVE HANGOVER to The Supremes .

no it really isn't quite the same. while i agree it's unfortunate that motown used other singers on recordings, the recording process is only one piece of the pie. promotion can be argued as being almost more important - look at the high quality songs the supremes sang on in the 70s that went nowhere. M and C learned the routines, sang the song on tv and in concerts. so their role isn't entirely 0 with this as it is with Love Hangover

[marv2]

no it really isn't quite the same. while i agree it's unfortunate that motown used other singers on recordings, the recording process is only one piece of the pie. promotion can be argued as being almost more important - look at the high quality songs the supremes sang on in the 70s that went nowhere. M and C learned the routines, sang the song on tv and in concerts. so their role isn't entirely 0 with this as it is with Love Hangover

You also have to admit that these songs and recordings are so old now, that it is easy for younger people to get confused by who is singing what on what record.

[marv2]

but not by Motown proper.

No just by 30 and 40 something year old oldies DJ's and people that upload videos to places like Youtube.

[marv2]

but not by Motown proper.

I do remember a collection or two put out by Motown that included some 70s recordings and they titled the album "Diana Ross & the Supremes".

[Boogiedown]

no it really isn't quite the same. while i agree it's unfortunate that motown used other singers on recordings, the recording process is only one piece of the pie. promotion can be argued as being almost more important - look at the high quality songs the supremes sang on in the 70s that went nowhere. M and C learned the routines, sang the song on tv and in concerts. so their role isn't entirely 0 with this as it is with Love Hangover

interesting take. Do you think the record should list the song as being by Diana Ross and The Supremes??

[luke]

And wasnt it Diana, Nick. Joshie and Valerie and maybe more on ANMHE?

[Jimi LaLumia]

I bought a Motown cassette album of either "Touch" or "New Ways.." and the spine title said DR&TS

[sup_fan]

interesting take. Do you think the record should list the song as being by Diana Ross and The Supremes??

i believe that, technically, motown had the right to utilize any singers as members of the group. none of the Four Tops recordings are listed as "Four Tops and Andantes" and there were plenty of times it was more than just DMF and/or C.

I agree that it's not really the most appropriate thing to just swap out singers with session artists. it seems to be something that primarily impacted the female groups. smokey never recorded any of the Miracles tracks with just him and, say, The Originals on backing vocals. And Levi was never backed up by the Temps or Elgins. yet the Sups, Marvelettes, Vandellas and [[i'm assuming) the Velvelettes all were routinely replaced. perhaps it's really just a bit of the sexism/chauvinism at motown

[marv2]

i believe that, technically, motown had the right to utilize any singers as members of the group. none of the Four Tops recordings are listed as "Four Tops and Andantes" and there were plenty of times it was more than just DMF and/or C.

I agree that it's not really the most appropriate thing to just swap out singers with session artists. it seems to be something that primarily impacted the female groups. smokey never recorded any of the Miracles tracks with just him and, say, The Originals on backing vocals. And Levi was never backed up by the Temps or Elgins. yet the Sups, Marvelettes, Vandellas and [[i'm assuming) the Velvelettes all were routinely replaced. perhaps it's really just a bit of the sexism/chauvinism at motown

I am sorry, but no, Motown did not have the right to utilize any singers as members of the group especially in the case of the Supremes. It was spelled out specifically in their contracts that the company, Motown could not replace any group member on recordings or in live performance if the singer was willing and able to perform. This is what got Motown in trouble when Mary Wilson sued them in 1977-78. This is how we first heard that Mary and Cindy were not on the recordings of "Love Child" and "Someday, We'll Be Together" among other late 60s recordings.

[TomatoTom123]

i believe that, technically, motown had the right to utilize any singers as members of the group. none of the Four Tops recordings are listed as "Four Tops and Andantes" and there were plenty of times it was more than just DMF and/or C.

I agree that it's not really the most appropriate thing to just swap out singers with session artists. it seems to be something that primarily impacted the female groups. smokey never recorded any of the Miracles tracks with just him and, say, The Originals on backing vocals. And Levi was never backed up by the Temps or Elgins. yet the Sups, Marvelettes, Vandellas and [[i'm assuming) the Velvelettes all were routinely replaced. perhaps it's really just a bit of the sexism/chauvinism at motown

Yeah, interesting observation sup. The only instance of it happening to a male group I can think of is with Bobby Taylor & The Vancouvers [[using The Originals), but I think by that time Bobby was already solo, or at least marketed as solo. Didn't ever happen to The Tops, don't think it ever happened to The Fantastic Four or The Spinners. Nor mixed groups like Gladys & The Pips and The Monitors. Maybe because The Andantes were so profilic and readily available it was just convenient for them to be used to do backing vocals for female groups, however wrong it was.

In a way it's kind of odd that it happened to Motown's highest profile act. If anyone was going to notice that Motown had done such a thing, it would have been on a Supremes #1 record. Guess they just didn't really care.

[TomatoTom123]

Originally the track [[vocals and all) was meant for Jr. Walker so that probably would have just been another average session for the ladies. But after it was released by the Supremes, yeah, I could see the background singers being somewhat miffed. Especially after Mary and Cindy lipsynced to it on both THE HOLLYWOOD PALACE and ED SULLIVAN.

Whenever I hear the intro, I always think it's a late 60s/early 70s Junior Walker track produced by Johnny Bristol. I can definitely hear Junior singing it. In fact I wish he had recorded it.

Makes a lot more sense why The Waters and Merry wouldn't have thought much of doing backing vocals at the time. :)

[BritishTony]

1. EVERY company was bolstering their groups withadditional voices: Spector, Beach Boys, Monkees, Ike & Tina [[with even Ike’svoice subbed by Mickey Baker), Rolling Stones [[even the Beatles backed them),hell even the Beatles were augmented by Billy Preston, Jane Asher, NeilAspinall.

2. Irrespective of who helped in studio those Supremesgirls sang all those hits superbly live at The Talk Of The Town, Copacabana, 20Grand, Fox, Frontier etc. Give them their dues.

[milven]

I am sorry, but no, Motown did not have the right to utilize any singers as members of the group especially in the case of the Supremes. It was spelled out specifically in their contracts that the company, Motown could not replace any group member on recordings or in live performance if the singer was willing and able to perform. This is what got Motown in trouble when Mary Wilson sued them in 1977-78. This is how we first heard that Mary and Cindy were not on the recordings of "Love Child" and "Someday, We'll Be Together" among other late 60s recordings.

This afternoon, I was watching a video on YouTube where Mary said that she told Barry that she was too exausted to do the Love Child sessions and was going on vacation. Mary said that she was disapointed when she came back and found that the sessions were recorded. So in that instance, she was able to work, but not willing.

In the case of Someday, I have always heard that was a Diana solo and so Cindy and Mary were not meant to be on that record, and they weren't. However, when it was released as a Supremes record, Mary got royalties from it as well as Love Child, and coninues to get royalites.

Not being sarcastic, but it sounds like she was suing Motown for paying her for being on those records even though she wasn't. Why was she suing Motown in 77-78?

[marv2]

This afternoon, I was watching a video on YouTube where Mary said that she told Barry that she was too exausted to do the Love Child sessions and was going on vacation. Mary said that she was disapointed when she came back and found that the sessions were recorded. So in that instance, she was able to work, but not willing.

In the case of Someday, I have always heard that was a Diana solo and so Cindy and Mary were not meant to be on that record, and they weren't. However, when it was released as a Supremes record, Mary got royalties from it as well as Love Child, and coninues to get royalites.

Not being sarcastic, but it sounds like she was suing Motown for paying her for being on those records even though she wasn't. Why was she suing Motown in 77-78?


No, you completely do not understand. She sued for breach of contract and violating child labor laws since they had signed her at age 16 and without legal representation. I could say why she was suing them in 1977-78, but you are going to have to ask her. I am not authorized to say.

[milven]

No, you completely do not understand. She sued for breach of contract and violating child labor laws since they had signed her at age 16 and without legal representation. I could say why she was suing them in 1977-78, but you are going to have to ask her. I am not authorized to say.

interesting reply to my question. To paraphrase your post, you said she sued them in 77-78, but if I want to know why, I have to ask her since you are not authorized to say.

If she sued them, it would be public record. But, rather than drag it on, I will simply let it go.

[Boogiedown]

1. EVERY company was bolstering their groups withadditional voices:............................

Bolstering groups with additional voices and implying there are performers on a record who aren't are two different things.

[bradsupremes]

Yeah, interesting observation sup. The only instance of it happening to a male group I can think of is with Bobby Taylor & The Vancouvers [[using The Originals), but I think by that time Bobby was already solo, or at least marketed as solo. Didn't ever happen to The Tops, don't think it ever happened to The Fantastic Four or The Spinners.

I can think of only a handful of instances...

"Can't Stop This Feeling" - The Four Tops [[Levi & the Originals/Andantes)
"Just Another Lonely Night" - The Four Tops [[Levi & the Temptations/Andantes)
"Love Woke Me Up This Morning" - The Temptations [[Damon Harris & the Andantes/Originals)

[marv2]

interesting reply to my question. To paraphrase your post, you said she sued them in 77-78, but if I want to know why, I have to ask her since you are not authorized to say.

If she sued them, it would be public record. But, rather than drag it on, I will simply let it go.

Yeah, let it go....

[marv2]

I can think of only a handful of instances...

"Can't Stop This Feeling" - The Four Tops [[Levi & the Originals/Andantes)
"Just Another Lonely Night" - The Four Tops [[Levi & the Temptations/Andantes)
"Love Woke Me Up This Morning" - The Temptations [[Damon Harris & the Andantes/Originals)

Almost the whole "Wings of Love " album by the Temptation have just Dennis Edwards back by session singers.

[marybrewster]

If the sound doesn't change, does it matter in the name? The DRATS "SOMEDAY" was heavy on Andantes. But so was Diana's solo "AIN'T NO MOUNTAIN".

[marv2]

If the sound doesn't change, does it matter in the name? The DRATS "SOMEDAY" was heavy on Andantes. But so was Diana's solo "AIN'T NO MOUNTAIN".


The Andantes were not on either of those records.

[marv2]

Does anyone know for sure who are doing the backing vocals on Diana Ross' "These Things Will Keep Me Loving You". I hear Johnny Bristol.

[marybrewster]

The Andantes were not on either of those records.

Precisely my point. Did it matter WHO was on the background if the backgrounds are so prominent? Label it as a DRATS record. Label it as a Diana solo. The sound is the same.

[marybrewster]

Does anyone know for sure who are doing the backing vocals on Diana Ross' "These Things Will Keep Me Loving You". I hear Johnny Bristol.

Mary claims in "Dreamgirl" she was present for this recording. If she wasn't there for "Someday" it's unlikely she was there for this.

[RanRan79]

If the sound doesn't change, does it matter in the name? The DRATS "SOMEDAY" was heavy on Andantes. But so was Diana's solo "AIN'T NO MOUNTAIN".

For the record, the Andantes were not on those songs. But in answer to your question: to the listener it probably doesn't make much- if any- difference, and it shouldn't, but to the singers I can understand it being an issue. Like I said before, I've never given any thought to the situation from the backing vocalist perspective. I think there's a tendency to do to professional background singers what is sometimes done to members of a group who mostly perform in the capacity of backing vocalist: they're dispensable and their thoughts and feelings don't matter. Show up and sing, seems to be a common thought about anyone who isn't the lead singer [[solo or group). So from a backing vocalist perspective, depending on what was discussed beforehand, if you think when going into the studio to record background work that the work will be used on a soloist only to find that there are women and men- famous women and men, at that- getting credit for your work, you might feel some type a way about it. I probably would. As Luke pointed out, it wasn't customary at the time to give printed credit to backing vocalists the way it would later on, so the general public rarely knew who the Andantes or Waters or Sweet Inspirations were. But within the industry these names were floating around and that's how they were making their living because producers knew who to call on and they knew the work that they did. It has to suck to not be able to claim your work on a million selling number one hit like "Someday We'll Be Together". It's all water under the bridge now of course, but I understand any negative feelings anyone might have had at the time about it.

[RanRan79]

Mary claims in "Dreamgirl" she was present for this recording. If she wasn't there for "Someday" it's unlikely she was there for this.

I don't remember "These Things" being discussed in Dreamgirl. I'll have to look for it.

[bradsupremes]

Johnny Bristol is singing background vocals on "These Things Will Keep Me Loving You." I wouldn't be surprised if the same ladies on "Someday" are the same on "These Things."

In fact, "These Things" was cut in November 1969 for the Supremes. Listen to the guitar licks - they are the same as "Someday." The thinking was probably the first single for the Supremes without Diana should sound like their last single with her. It was later reassigned to Diana with the similar thought process. Ultimately it was dropped in favor of "Reach Out And Touch [[Somebody's Hand)" as her first solo single. The question is...did Jean put down a vocal on "These Things?" It'd be fun to find out.

[Bluebrock]

interesting reply to my question. To paraphrase your post, you said she sued them in 77-78, but if I want to know why, I have to ask her since you are not authorized to say.

If she sued them, it would be public record. But, rather than drag it on, I will simply let it go.
Wise move. I neither know or care why she sued Motown in 77-78 but it shouldn't be too difficult to find out if you are at all curious. You can easily bypass Marv with all his ridiculous cloak and dagger stuff. Good luck.

[TomatoTom123]

I can think of only a handful of instances...

"Can't Stop This Feeling" - The Four Tops [[Levi & the Originals/Andantes)
"Just Another Lonely Night" - The Four Tops [[Levi & the Temptations/Andantes)
"Love Woke Me Up This Morning" - The Temptations [[Damon Harris & the Andantes/Originals)

So there were a few! Thanks brad :)

[sup_fan]

For the record, the Andantes were not on those songs. But in answer to your question: to the listener it probably doesn't make much- if any- difference, and it shouldn't, but to the singers I can understand it being an issue. Like I said before, I've never given any thought to the situation from the backing vocalist perspective. I think there's a tendency to do to professional background singers what is sometimes done to members of a group who mostly perform in the capacity of backing vocalist: they're dispensable and their thoughts and feelings don't matter. Show up and sing, seems to be a common thought about anyone who isn't the lead singer [[solo or group). So from a backing vocalist perspective, depending on what was discussed beforehand, if you think when going into the studio to record background work that the work will be used on a soloist only to find that there are women and men- famous women and men, at that- getting credit for your work, you might feel some type a way about it. I probably would. As Luke pointed out, it wasn't customary at the time to give printed credit to backing vocalists the way it would later on, so the general public rarely knew who the Andantes or Waters or Sweet Inspirations were. But within the industry these names were floating around and that's how they were making their living because producers knew who to call on and they knew the work that they did. It has to suck to not be able to claim your work on a million selling number one hit like "Someday We'll Be Together". It's all water under the bridge now of course, but I understand any negative feelings anyone might have had at the time about it.

very well said

at least in theory, the Supremes and DRATS were supposed to be GROUPS and as such the direction and accomplishment of the groups should be a matter of group decision. of course we know things had declined by 69 so they girls were most certainly operating as a group any longer.

[sup_fan]

Mary claims in "Dreamgirl" she was present for this recording. If she wasn't there for "Someday" it's unlikely she was there for this.

there's a lot of erroneous information in Mary's chronology. my impression is that she received some of the session information but her dates mostly seem to line up with when the tracks were cut, not when the group added vocals.

[marv2]

Johnny Bristol is singing background vocals on "These Things Will Keep Me Loving You." I wouldn't be surprised if the same ladies on "Someday" are the same on "These Things."

In fact, "These Things" was cut in November 1969 for the Supremes. Listen to the guitar licks - they are the same as "Someday." The thinking was probably the first single for the Supremes without Diana should sound like their last single with her. It was later reassigned to Diana with the similar thought process. Ultimately it was dropped in favor of "Reach Out And Touch [[Somebody's Hand)" as her first solo single. The question is...did Jean put down a vocal on "These Things?" It'd be fun to find out.

That does sound interesting. Taking things a step further, the background vocals on "Reach Out and Touch Somebody's Hand" always sounded like the Supremes [[Mary Wilson, etc) to me.

[marv2]

Precisely my point. Did it matter WHO was on the background if the backgrounds are so prominent? Label it as a DRATS record. Label it as a Diana solo. The sound is the same.

I cannot honestly say that because on all of the original Supremes hit records, the background vocals made a difference. The distinct vocals of Florence Ballard and Mary Wilson, along with Diana Ross made the records appealing in ways that are tough to describe. For instance, Motown could have released "Where Did Our Love Go?", Come See About Me", etc with other singers in the background, but it would not sound like the records everyone came to love.

[marv2]

Mary claims in "Dreamgirl" she was present for this recording. If she wasn't there for "Someday" it's unlikely she was there for this.

Why? Were they recorded on the same day? Johnny said in 2003 [[I can't find interview right now....), that he recorded the Supremes. He got confused and said that he thought he had them in the studio when recording "Someday....". This other record "These Things Will Keep Me...." sounds very similar especially with his ad-libs included. Cindy Birdsong has said that the reason they did not record "Someday....", is because they were on their way out of town at the time. Poor scheduling was the reason for things turning out the way they did.

[sup_fan]

I cannot honestly say that because on all of the original Supremes hit records, the background vocals made a difference. The distinct vocals of Florence Ballard and Mary Wilson, along with Diana Ross made the records appealing in ways that are tough to describe. For instance, Motown could have released "Where Did Our Love Go?", Come See About Me", etc with other singers in the background, but it would not sound like the records everyone came to love.

i agree that M and F had distinctive voices and their sound was significant to the development of the group and their initial hits. unfortunately as the hits came along, their role was reduced as people became more trained on just Diana's voice. but on songs like Baby Love, Come See, Back in my arms again, M and F play very large parts in the record and sound

[RanRan79]

Johnny Bristol is singing background vocals on "These Things Will Keep Me Loving You." I wouldn't be surprised if the same ladies on "Someday" are the same on "These Things."

In fact, "These Things" was cut in November 1969 for the Supremes. Listen to the guitar licks - they are the same as "Someday." The thinking was probably the first single for the Supremes without Diana should sound like their last single with her. It was later reassigned to Diana with the similar thought process. Ultimately it was dropped in favor of "Reach Out And Touch [[Somebody's Hand)" as her first solo single. The question is...did Jean put down a vocal on "These Things?" It'd be fun to find out.

I was under the impression that both songs were cut during the same session.

[sup_fan]

Why? Were they recorded on the same day? Johnny said in 2003 [[I can't find interview right now....), that he recorded the Supremes. He got confused and said that he thought he had them in the studio when recording "Someday....". This other record "These Things Will Keep Me...." sounds very similar especially with his ad-libs included. Cindy Birdsong has said that the reason they did not recorded "Someday....", is because they were on their way out of town at the time. Poor scheduling was the reason for things turning out the way they did.

other than mary's date in her chronology, i don't have any other recording info on These Things. in the small booklet that came with the Diana Ross 1970 album reissue in the early 2000s, they didn't go into any details about the recording dates and sessions. And there's been little on Someday other than it was recorded June 16. no other dates are known. so don't know if that was when the initial backing track was recorded, when string were added, when lead or backgrounds were added, etc.

[jobeterob]

When you have someone famous, everyone has their take on how they were involved.

Merry Clayton is pretty hard on Bristol and the Supremes.

[marv2]

i agree that M and F had distinctive voices and their sound was significant to the development of the group and their initial hits. unfortunately as the hits came along, their role was reduced as people became more trained on just Diana's voice. but on songs like Baby Love, Come See, Back in my arms again, M and F play very large parts in the record and sound

That was done on purpose by Mr. Gordy. He directed the background vocals to be turned down on the recordings.......

[PeaceNHarmony]

When you have someone famous, everyone has their take on how they were involved.

Merry Clayton is pretty hard on Bristol and the Supremes.
Clayton surely represents herself in a less-than-admirable light. Diana sings 'Someday' like an angel and no one could ever top her version. Others [[like Merry herself, perhaps) would have done a screamin' - hollerin' - squallin' reading of the song but Diana [[as Bristol says) 'sang it pretty' and we love her for it. It's sad that so many also-rans retain bitterness at the fact of others' successes for decades but we have to accept that. I wish Merry Clayton well, hope she is able to cope with her health, thank her for her wonderful vocals through the years, and I don't hold her own grudges against her.

[marv2]

Merry Clayton is a great singer. No one could top her on the Rolling Stones "Gimme Shelter". She's been in films and had her own hits. God Bless her!

[marv2]

other than mary's date in her chronology, i don't have any other recording info on These Things. in the small booklet that came with the Diana Ross 1970 album reissue in the early 2000s, they didn't go into any details about the recording dates and sessions. And there's been little on Someday other than it was recorded June 16. no other dates are known. so don't know if that was when the initial backing track was recorded, when string were added, when lead or backgrounds were added, etc.

You see when they leave information out like that, it leaves you wondering.

[Boogiedown]

Clayton surely represents herself in a less-than-admirable light. Diana sings 'Someday' like an angel and no one could ever top her version. Others [[like Merry herself, perhaps) would have done a screamin' - hollerin' - squallin' reading of the song but Diana [[as Bristol says) 'sang it pretty' and we love her for it. It's sad that so many also-rans retain bitterness at the fact of others' successes for decades but we have to accept that. I wish Merry Clayton well, hope she is able to cope with her health, thank her for her wonderful vocals through the years, and I don't hold her own grudges against her.
??
Did you watch the video being discussed here?
Merry says nothing about Diana Ross.

[khansperac]

Merry Clayton maybe respected, but she didn’t need to disrespect Mary and Cindy by calling them Milli Vanilli.

[PeaceNHarmony]

Merry Clayton maybe respected, but she didn’t need to disrespect Mary and Cindy by calling them Milli Vanilli.
Perfectly stated. Mary and Cindy had nothing to do with the decision to be or not be included on any Supremes record. Pretty much all fans would have preferred that Mary & Cindy had been on each and every cut.

[Boogiedown]

well, when you pretend you are on a record when you aren't.......:rolleyes::p

[marv2]

well, when you pretend you are on a record when you aren't.......:rolleyes::p

I know Mary Wilson never pretended that. In fact, she is the FIRST person to publicly state that she, nor Cindy Birdsong were on that and other recordings from the late sixties. She wrote about it in "Dreamgirl, My Life As A Supreme". That is why these guys talk so much about it today. It was she that shared that information.

[Boogiedown]

I know Mary Wilson never pretended that. In fact, she is the FIRST person to publicly state that she, nor Cindy Birdsong were on that and other recordings from the late sixties. She wrote about it in "Dreamgirl, My Life As A Supreme". That is why these guys talk so much about it today. It was she that shared that information.

Maybe so , but that was years later when it no longer mattered. At the time of its release , they were very willing to stand on stage and perform it as if this were a record they were involved in , as was misstated on the record.
That would be , very .....Milli Vanilli.

[marv2]

Maybe so , but that was years later when it no longer mattered. At the time of its release , they were very willing to stand on stage and perform it as if this were a record they were involved in , as was misstated on the record.
That would be , very .....Milli Vanilli.

You do understand that Motown directed and was in control of everything at that time? You could hardly blame the Supremes for it.

[Boogiedown]

You do understand that Motown directed and was in control of everything at that time? You could hardly blame the Supremes for it.

ever heard of "collusion" ??? lol!!!

[marv2]

This is an example of the Motown PR Department's work back at the time this song was released and on the charts:

14793

[marv2]

ever heard of "collusion" ??? Lol!!!

stop! Lol!!!!!!

[Jimi LaLumia]

Marv is correct, Mary was the first to be open about this..
and Ross hinted at it when she said something to the effect of "I don't know what they're complaining about, I do all the work.." I didn't know at the time but she was obviously referring to being Gordy's studio slave while the girls were off on vacations and it was not collusion, it was an ILLUSION created by Motown that these were "Supremes' records.. they were Diana Ross records

[Jimi LaLumia]

as I've also stated in the past, there were many 60's singles released as Beatles that were actually just Paul on the record [[Yesterday; Michelle) or just Paul and John [[the top 10 "Ballad Of John And Yoko")..I don't recall Beatles fans mekting down over the absence of George and Ringo on quite a few of the big hits credited to BEATLES

[bradsupremes]

I was under the impression that both songs were cut during the same session.

"Someday" was cut in June 1969. "These Things" was cut in November 1969. Most likely when Motown saw "Someday" gaining momentum on the charts they had Bristol cut another similar sounding track as a follow-up either for Diana or the Supremes. It was intended for the Supremes but reassigned to Diana.

[RanRan79]

"Someday" was cut in June 1969. "These Things" was cut in November 1969. Most likely when Motown saw "Someday" gaining momentum on the charts they had Bristol cut another similar sounding track as a follow-up either for Diana or the Supremes. It was intended for the Supremes but reassigned to Diana.

Oh okay. Well it sure would be great if a Jean lead on the song surfaced. I could hear her singing it.

[milven]

Oh okay. Well it sure would be great if a Jean lead on the song surfaced. I could hear her singing it.

Here is a live performance of Jean Terrel and The Supremes singing SOMEDAY WE'LL BE TOGETHER with Smokey Robinson


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fiNXtZj3ezA

[Boogiedown]

as I've also stated in the past, there were many 60's singles released as Beatles that were actually just Paul on the record [[Yesterday; Michelle) or just Paul and John [[the top 10 "Ballad Of John And Yoko")..I don't recall Beatles fans mekting down over the absence of George and Ringo on quite a few of the big hits credited to BEATLES

But the Beatles never brought in outside people to sing their parts and try to pass them off as them. When you hear John Lennon , it's him singing. [[not Merry Clayton lol!)

[Boogiedown]

Marv is correct, Mary was the first to be open about this..
and Ross hinted at it when she said something to the effect of "I don't know what they're complaining about, I do all the work.." I didn't know at the time but she was obviously referring to being Gordy's studio slave while the girls were off on vacations and it was not collusion, it was an ILLUSION created by Motown that these were "Supremes' records.. they were Diana Ross records

well Milli Vanilli were an illusion too, so I don't understand why some object to the comparison. Merry Clayton is just telling it like it is.

It is collusion of the illusion when you know the deceit is taking place and you allow it to happen , especially when by participating in the fraud you gain by it.
I do agree with your last assertion, these were Diana Ross records, not Diana Ross and The Supremes records.

[marv2]

But the Beatles never brought in outside people to sing their parts and try to pass them off as them. When you hear John Lennon , it's him singing. [[not Merry Clayton lol!)

They sure brought in other people to play their musical parts though. According to Quincy Jones, the Beatles were not very good musicians and at times they brought in skilled Jazz musicians to play on their records. Sometimes some of the Beatles did not even know that it was not them that were playing!

https://www.theguardian.com/music/2018/feb/07/quincy-jones-the-beatles-were-the-worst-musicians-in-the-world

[marv2]

Here is a huge list of folks that performed on Beatles recordings including background vocals. They used everyone from Eric Clapton to Donovan on their background vocals! LOL!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_who_performed_on_Beatles_recordings

[milven]

... According to Quincy Jones, the Beatles were not very good musicians and at times they brought in skilled Jazz musicians to play on their records. Sometimes some of the Beatles did not even know that it was not them that were playing!...


In this Supremes discussion, are you suggesting that the Supremes were not very good singers and at times they brought in skilled session singers to sing on their records. Sometimes some of the Supremes did not even know that it was not them that were singing? :confused:;)

[144man]

In general, would anyone but the producers know who had done the vocal overdubs on the backing tracks that were eventually used if, as we are told, the finished product was assembled like a motor car?

[marybrewster]

I know Mary Wilson never pretended that. In fact, she is the FIRST person to publicly state that she, nor Cindy Birdsong were on that and other recordings from the late sixties. She wrote about it in "Dreamgirl, My Life As A Supreme". That is why these guys talk so much about it today. It was she that shared that information.

https://youtu.be/Av4Ve94tJvw

[marv2]

https://youtu.be/Av4Ve94tJvw

Didn't you listen to what she said in the clip you chose to dispute what I said previously? She said "This is the last song I recorded with Diane in 1970...." She is still telling the truth. "The Farewell Album" was recorded on January 14, 1970 and released on April 13, 1970.

On that album the very last song recorded by Diana Ross, Mary Wilson and Cindy Birdsong is "Someday We'll Be Together". I don't know what you have against Mary Wilson, but she is not a liar. She doesn't always remember everything from 30,40 or 50 years ago, but I know her and she is not a liar! Thanks

[marv2]

In this Supremes discussion, are you suggesting that the Supremes were not very good singers and at times they brought in skilled session singers to sing on their records. Sometimes some of the Supremes did not even know that it was not them that were singing? :confused:;)

I don't know where you read that I said that,but I suggest you go there and read it again. I never said the Supremes were not very good singers. The Supremes were excellent singers. Always have been.

[marybrewster]

Didn't you listen to what she said in the clip you chose to dispute what I said previously? She said "This is the last song I recorded with Diane in 1970...." She is still telling the truth. "The Farewell Album" was recorded on January 14, 1970 and released on April 13, 1970.

On that album the very last song recorded by Diana Ross, Mary Wilson and Cindy Birdsong is "Someday We'll Be Together". I don't know what you have against Mary Wilson, but she is not a liar. She doesn't always remember everything from 30,40 or 50 years ago, but I know her and she is not a liar! Thanks

https://youtu.be/Gf9K7VLgtXY

Here's Mary again introducing "Love Child" a song SHE recorded with Diana AND FLORENCE.

[marybrewster]

Didn't you listen to what she said in the clip you chose to dispute what I said previously? She said "This is the last song I recorded with Diane in 1970...." She is still telling the truth. "The Farewell Album" was recorded on January 14, 1970 and released on April 13, 1970.

On that album the very last song recorded by Diana Ross, Mary Wilson and Cindy Birdsong is "Someday We'll Be Together". I don't know what you have against Mary Wilson, but she is not a liar. She doesn't always remember everything from 30,40 or 50 years ago, but I know her and she is not a liar! Thanks

I have nothing against Mary Wilson whatsoever. Many fans on this forum who know me know I've adored her for years, and have actually done some side work for Mary. So let's not go down that road.

It's just funny how selective her memory is. My only goal is to keep things truthful when she has not been.

[blackguy69]

Both Mary and Diana has have slips when introducing songs

[Jimi LaLumia]

when Mary Wilson is on stage doing "Supremes' songs, she is there to entertain, not to educate.. the average non Forum person in any audience couldn't care less who was on what record, nor did they buy a ticket for a lecture on who did what to who...lol

[floyjoy678]

Yeah I don't think it's a big deal, it's like I heard Nedra of the Ronettes talking "we did Baby I Love You in 1963" and she's not on that song, well about 80% of the Ronettes songs for that matter.

[jobeterob]

when Mary Wilson is on stage doing "Supremes' songs, she is there to entertain, not to educate.. the average non Forum person in any audience couldn't care less who was on what record, nor did they buy a ticket for a lecture on who did what to who...lol

Totally agree.

That's the whole flaw in what Merry Clayton says; it does not elevate her position and cut down the Supremes. What was done in the studio wasn't all that unusual and Motown was sweetening the sound in 1963 before the sound was even established. Just the same, this only blows up when you try and pretend that the Miracles and Pips and Vandellas and Supremes mattered as much as Smokey, Gladys, Martha and Diana. Personally, they did. To super fans, they did. To the public, they are generally generic and unidentifiable, no matter what version of Merry or Mary they use.

[Boogiedown]

it's like the fake news crowd.
don't bother us with truths. It gets in the way of what we want to believe.:rolleyes:

[marv2]

when Mary Wilson is on stage doing "Supremes' songs, she is there to entertain, not to educate.. the average non Forum person in any audience couldn't care less who was on what record, nor did they buy a ticket for a lecture on who did what to who...lol

You better say that Jimi!!! LOL!

[LoveSupreme]

Once Florence was gone and the group's name changed to "Diana Ross and the Supremes" all semblance of a group went out the window. They were a group for stage and television appearances only - - - on records it was clearly only Diana's voice that was utilized.

Berry was slick that way. He saved money by utilizing other singers to back Diana up - he wouldn't have to pay them as much as he would Mary, or even Cindy, the reasoning was that no one would know the difference, and guess what? No one did!

The label may have read "Diana Ross and the Supremes" but the unsuspecting public were technically purchasing Diana Ross solo records. That's why it was so very easy to take an intended solo recording meant for Diana Ross' solo debut and switch it into a "Supremes" record. The sound was the same - it was all interchangeable.

If Diana had not left the group in 1970 I believe all her early 1970's material would have been recorded in very much the same way and simply credited to "Diana Ross and the Supremes". Songs like "ANMHI", "Reach Out..." even "I'm Still Waiting" could have easily been passed off as "DRATS" recordings and no one would have known the difference.

[marv2]

Once Florence was gone and the group's name changed to "Diana Ross and the Supremes" all semblance of a group went out the window. They were a group for stage and television appearances only - - - on records it was clearly only Diana's voice that was utilized.

Berry was slick that way. He saved money by utilizing other singers to back Diana up - he wouldn't have to pay them as much as he would Mary, or even Cindy, the reasoning was that no one would know the difference, and guess what? No one did!

The label may have read "Diana Ross and the Supremes" but the unsuspecting public were technically purchasing Diana Ross solo records. That's why it was so very easy to take an intended solo recording meant for Diana Ross' solo debut and switch it into a "Supremes" record. The sound was the same - it was all interchangeable.

If Diana had not left the group in 1970 I believe all her early 1970's material would have been recorded in very much the same way and simply credited to "Diana Ross and the Supremes". Songs like "ANMHI", "Reach Out..." even "I'm Still Waiting" could have easily been passed off as "DRATS" recordings and no one would have known the difference.

He may have saved time, but not money because Mary and Cindy received royalties for those recordings done in the late 60s. Motown also had to pay the session singers.