Promises Kept and Dynamite

[sup_fan]

The Promises Kept lp was scheduled to be released in Dec 71, same month that the Dynamite duet album was released. i wonder how many of the duets were actually recorded together as duets. versus having two separate leads cut and glued together.

half of Dynamite was produced by Frank Wilson and all of Return of Mag 7. I wonder if any of the songs were really intended for the Supremes by themselves. they had pretty much stopped recording new "duet" material by summer 71 so Dynamite is the producers dusting off some tunes to assemble into an lp. Love The One You're With doesn't even have a Levi lead to it.

So in addition to the 19 "Promises Kept" tracks we've had released, the various JMC tracks like The Day Will Come Between Sunday and Monday, Life Beats and more, plus the potential duets tracks, i wonder what the final PK album could have been like

[marybrewster]

When you think about the Supremes and 1970/1971, they released SIX albums in two years. That's unheard of today; an artist MIGHT release an album every three years.

I think the Supremes were just over saturated in the market. After "Right On", the group should have gone directly into "New Ways". The duets albums with the Tops seem more like a last ditch effort; the New Supremes were hot, so why mess with the formula? However when "New Ways" stalled [[which I still can't believe only charted in the high 60's with a #1 R & B hit) THEN they should have tried the "Magnificent 7". With that being a flop, the next step should have been "Promises Kept" and scrapped "Return" and "Dynamite". From there they could have went to "Touch".

Thoughts?

[RanRan79]

Once again, like with the Diana and Marvin duets, I never even considered that there might be "solo" versions of the songs. I think that one album was a great idea, three was just overkill. Some of the songs are really great, while others leave a lot to be desired. However, Jean does some of her finest vocals during the duet sessions IMO so the idea that there might be solo versions of some of these songs makes me hopeful that they may surface at some point.

[RanRan79]

When you think about the Supremes and 1970/1971, they released SIX albums in two years. That's unheard of today; an artist MIGHT release an album every three years.

I think the Supremes were just over saturated in the market. After "Right On", the group should have gone directly into "New Ways". The duets albums with the Tops seem more like a last ditch effort; the New Supremes were hot, so why mess with the formula? However when "New Ways" stalled [[which I still can't believe only charted in the high 60's with a #1 R & B hit) THEN they should have tried the "Magnificent 7". With that being a flop, the next step should have been "Promises Kept" and scrapped "Return" and "Dynamite". From there they could have went to "Touch".

Thoughts?

I get your logic: Right On to New Ways to Mag 7. It's hard to argue against that. The only thing I might say in Motown's defense is that the Supremes were indeed hot, and the idea might have been to capitalize on that by pairing them with the other top male Motown group that the Supremes had not "officially" worked with. So to them it might have seemed like a great financial move to pair the still hot Supremes with the reemerging Tops, who had just had their first big hit in quite some time. But I agree with you: Right On, then New Ways, then Mag 7, then Promises Kept, then Touch. After that I would have still gone with Floy Joy but scrapped Jimmy Webb. I would've done the Stevie album and then the Thom Bell album, which I think would be my ultimate Jean project. Her voice just seems tailor made for a Bell production.

[sup_fan]

i heard a rumor [[and it's mostly likely that, but still intriguing) that You Gotta Have Love was originally intended for just the Sups. not a duet. could have been interesting single for them 1) if they'd allowed more of Jean sensational singing at the end to make the final edit and 2) maybe adjust the backing track to be more rock and less sing-song bouncy.

totally agree about the over saturation. i think the combo of too much material on the market and the poor marketing plan for the album design of NWBLS is to blame for the poor chart performance. as we all would have liked, just imagine if the cover WAS the fro shot and the title Stone Love [[notice the correct spelling of the first word - never in the lyric do they sing Stoned. always Stone)

i can see the sensational store displays and posters. maybe the back cover could have been one of those wonderful shots of the girls in the green fringe jumpsuits outdoors. or this one of them walking. the attitude and hipness of the outfits [[so chic but no vegas) sums up the girls for me at this time

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also love this billboard pose

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[RanRan79]

Has anyone contemplated a pairing of Barry White and the Supremes? I know he had Love Unlimited, who had patterned after the Supremes, but would he have turned down the opportunity to produce for the ultimate girl group? As fantastic as Love Unlimited's stuff is [[their first three albums are among my favorite albums of the 1970s PERIOD) there were never widely successful, but is there a chance that Barry's fortune with female groups could've changed with the Supremes? Would there be a better fit, the Jean Supremes or the Scherrie Supremes? Or is it just a bad idea altogether?

[RanRan79]

i can see the sensational store displays and posters. maybe the back cover could have been one of those wonderful shots of the girls in the green fringe jumpsuits outdoors. or this one of them walking. the attitude and hipness of the outfits [[so chic but no vegas) sums up the girls for me at this time

Those photos are definitely the direction the group should have been in constantly, image wise. Definitely a great look for them.

[sup_fan]

Barry White + Supremes

very interesting!

my only reason to pause is Barry is marvelous at orchestration but is he really a group producer? i'm actually asking as i'm really not all that personally familiar with his work, other than the mega hits we all know

[Thornton]

Over-saturating the market was an issue for The Supremes, and Motown in general. They would have been better off doing two albums per year, releasing just one album with Four Tops in 1971, followed by the Touch album. There also would have been more room for "It's Time To Break Down" to be released as a single in late 1970 or early 1971.

As a millennial I'm used to artists going three-five years without releasing an album. I can't imagine buying two or three albums from even my favorite artists in a single year. Add to that my baby boomer parents usually bought singles since albums were too expensive for them. My mom "splurged" on Carole King's "Tapestry" in 1971.

[thommg]

Thornton, it wasn't unusual back then to get an album from an artist every 6 months, but the number of Supremes recordings in the first two years after Diana left was unusual. There were just too many of them out there. Many of us had to ration our allowance and spread it among many artists. I admit I didn't buy Return of the Magnificent 7 and Dynamite until months after they were released.

[TomatoTom123]

Oooh I like the Thom Bell and Barry White ideas. A whole, proper Stevie album would have been good too I think. I'll also throw in Willie Hutch who I don't think has been mentioned before... he did some really great stuff on Sisters Love which could have fitted The Supremes well. :)

[blackguy69]

It’s interesting that some thought they were being over saturated during the 70-71 period. 3 albums in 70[[4 if you include the farewell album) and 3 in 71 is too much? How quickly we forget the girls put out 5 albums in 65, 6 in 68, and 5 in 69.

[sup_fan]

sure in 65 you had More Hits which did great, as did Copa. then Xmas, Cooke and CW&P. the four outside of More are really more about career growth than #1 on the charts.

in 68 and 69, i think you could definitely say it was over saturation. look how mediocre the chart positions were for Cream, Sunshine, Together, Broadway, and GH 3. Love Child lp did ok but could have/should have done better.

but all of this was really about motown's policy of making money. they weren't focusing on developing a legacy. the lps were not really looked at as a platform to release a cohesive concept or make a statement for the ages. it was about grabbing 12 or so strong songs and getting sales. Odds are if you at the total units sold in 68 across all Sup albums, while none were hitting #1 on the charts the total sold is probably higher than if they'd focused on 1 amazing album.

again, profits at work here

[daviddh]

I think there more singles from Right On , surprised life Beats was left off,love it
New Ways could have had 2 more singles in my book. to much product and no one knew what to do.
look how Motown released Dianas Everything lp then the single didn't come out for another year. WTF

[Thornton]

I think there more singles from Right On , surprised life Beats was left off,love it
New Ways could have had 2 more singles in my book. to much product and no one knew what to do.
look how Motown released Dianas Everything lp then the single didn't come out for another year. WTF

The Right On album is one of my favorites, and it would have been perfect with the addition of "Life Beats." It would have made a great follow up single. "Bill, When Are You Coming Back" was also wasted as a B-Side, IMO.

[Thornton]

but all of this was really about motown's policy of making money. they weren't focusing on developing a legacy. the lps were not really looked at as a platform to release a cohesive concept or make a statement for the ages. it was about grabbing 12 or so strong songs and getting sales. Odds are if you at the total units sold in 68 across all Sup albums, while none were hitting #1 on the charts the total sold is probably higher than if they'd focused on 1 amazing album.

again, profits at work here

I think that's why so many of us create our own mixes of Motown albums. It's all a matter of taste, but there were albums by multiple artists that could have been combined into one strong album. Don't get my started on material left in the vaults for The Supremes, The Marvelettes, and Martha and the Vandellas. So many of those tracks could have taken the place of the mediocre covers you often hear on studio albums in the mid-late 60's.

[sup_fan]

problem is that neither Life nor Bill are Frank Wilson productions. once he hit with Ladder, he was going to have the follow up. plus he also had enough artistic vision of what to do with the group. there was a concept and theme going on with his work and would create a "sound" for the girls.

I do think Life Beats should have been at least on an lp though. on either RO or NW

And i totally agree that there was more publicity and material they could have worked with on the released versions of these 2 lps. RO could have easily had a 3rd single and NW could have had 2 or 3 itself.

I still believe though that the recording and preparation for Stoned Love is what caused them to move on so quickly. it was recorded just after RO was released and it's just a masterpiece. no real other word to describe it. and frankly it's strong that absolutely any material on RO except perhaps Ladder. when you have something so hot and amazing, you're not going to just casually sit on it. it needs to get out ASAP and become the mega hit and mega money earner that it's destined to be. sure it would have been great if it came around just a few months later than it did. but timing is everything

[sup_fan]

actually i think that's what happened subsequently with NWBLS. Nathan Jones was released in april which means they were probably working on it in Feb or March 71. it was so unusual and so innovative that, again, i think they were just super eager to get it out there. Somewhere i read that Cindy stated that of all their 70s songs, the girls were thinking Nathan woudl be the mega hit/absolutely #1. so again they wouldn't have wanted to sit on it and wait for NW to continue cranking out singles. especially when the lp charted so poorly

also they did Time To Break Down on flip wilson. wonder if they were testing it there just like they did Mother Dear back in 65. maybe the overall public reaction and dj reaction to it just wasn't strong enough to do a single edit and release

[lucky2012]

My ideal scenario [[with a tighter release schedule):
Up the Ladder > Right On > Bill or Then We Can Try Again >Stone Love
>New Ways > Time to Breakdown > Nathan Jones > Touch > Here Comes
or This Is The Story > River-Deep > Magnificent Seven > Floy Joy
> Floy Joy> Over and Over or A Heart Like Mine > Bad Weather > ???

First album would be titled New Ways But Love Stays
Second album would be titled Stone Love

Hell yeah, Nathan Jones should have been as big as Stoned Love on the charts.
If the releases had been more timely, both would have been bigger.

[sup_fan]

my release schedule would be"

1970
Feb - Ladder
April - Right On lp
June - Loving Country [[single edit)
Oct - Stone Love
Nov - Stone Love lp

1971
Feb - Time to break down
April - River Deep
April - Mag 7
Sept - Nathan Jones
Sept - Touch lp
Dec - here comes the sunrise

1972
April - Floy Joy
May - Floy Joy lp
Aug - Your Wonderful Sweet Sweet Love [[edited w/o Smokey's voice or else recorded as a duet with sups and smokey)
Dec - maybe 530, assuming Webb still happened

[sup_fan]

Hell yeah, Nathan Jones should have been as big as Stoned Love on the charts.
If the releases had been more timely, both would have been bigger.

as much as i love this song, someone on here commented that it seems unfinished to them. after the bridge it really doesn't climax into anything bigger. there's a build between the intro/first verse and the second with additional horns and all. that's great. then there's the bridge. and then is should expand even more into a powerful ending and it doesn't. it just sort of plateaus. sure jean does some ad libs but they seem too tentative. maybe if it built just a bit more, it might have been a bit more powerful and even more exciting

[lucky2012]

I love Nathan Jones as is but there's always room for improvement. [[This is our ideal scenarios, after all :))
I like your schedule. I don't know the production timeline but could Stone Love have been released sooner [[August or September)? It's such a great song and, as you said, needed to come out ASAP. It would have then competed with ANMHE [[but in my ideal scenario, ANMHE would have been DR's debut single). Moving up the schedule a couple of months would have kept the Supremes' momentum going, I think. Love your idea of Smokey on YWSSL.

[marybrewster]

Great thread.

I think Motown certainly could have gotten more mileage out of the "New Ways" lp. Releasing just one single was ridiculous.

As far as the oversaturation of the late 60's versus the early 70's, I think it might be the case that Motown wanted to show the masses how versitile Diana could be. It was clear she'd be a solo star someday, so let's set the stage: she can sing live! [[Talk of the Town) She can host a TV show! [[TCB) She can sing Broadway and show tunes! [[Funny Girl) She can sing duets! [[Together) And she can still bring a song to #1! [[Love Child)

[sup_fan]

you're right that the late 60s were really just a launching pad for D. all of the material released, the specials, the shows, etc were about making her the most versatile superstar and to constantly have her name "Diana Ross" in front of the eyes of fans and shoppers.

with JMC it's the problem/benefit of having a huge amount of wonderful material all at 1 time. Frank did a masterful job of producing them and the material was top notch. as much as i love Ladder and RO, what if they'd LAUNCHED the sups with Stone Love [[again, spelled correctly) and a revised version of the NW lp that was titled Stone Love, had the fro cover and maybe just a bit tighter song lineup. true, it might ave too much too quickly - new lead singer, new sound, etc. and maybe Ladder and RO were the perfect way to ease people into the new grouping. but interesting idea :)

[Thornton]

with JMC it's the problem/benefit of having a huge amount of wonderful material all at 1 time. Frank did a masterful job of producing them and the material was top notch. as much as i love Ladder and RO, what if they'd LAUNCHED the sups with Stone Love [[again, spelled correctly) and a revised version of the NW lp that was titled Stone Love, had the fro cover and maybe just a bit tighter song lineup. true, it might ave too much too quickly - new lead singer, new sound, etc. and maybe Ladder and RO were the perfect way to ease people into the new grouping. but interesting idea :)

I honestly think that the biggest misstep in the 70's was not releasing the original "Stone Love" single, album, and cover art. The misspelling and bubblegum artwork really undermined the sophisticated sound that the group was creating at the time.

[sup_fan]

^ i think you're right. the mishandling of Stone Love was the first major fumble.

RO and ladder was an excellent intro to the new grouping. I was fine with using the DRATS gowns on the cover but thought the back cover should have been a different, non gown image. something a little more hip. love the poster tear-away

had they properly handled SL and also not inundated the market with all of the duets stuff, things might have been very different into 71 and even 72. the stresses might not have been so destructive to the group inner dynamics either

[marybrewster]

^ i think you're right. the mishandling of Stone Love was the first major fumble.

RO and ladder was an excellent intro to the new grouping. I was fine with using the DRATS gowns on the cover but thought the back cover should have been a different, non gown image. something a little more hip. love the poster tear-away

had they properly handled SL and also not inundated the market with all of the duets stuff, things might have been very different into 71 and even 72. the stresses might not have been so destructive to the group inner dynamics either

Does anyone have a clue when the photography for "Right On" happened? Prior to Diana leaving? I think using DRATS gowns was such a misstep; this was a new group with a new sound.....in worn torn dresses that somebody threw out. Well not quite, but lots of beads missing. The cover should have at least had them in their red pantsuits from Sullivan [[for the cover?) and their sliver pantsuits from Williams [[on the back cover and tear away poster?)

The red pantsuits would eventually make their appearance on "New Ways" but the whole front concept of that album is something else.

[reese]

Does anyone have a clue when the photography for "Right On" happened? Prior to Diana leaving? I think using DRATS gowns was such a misstep; this was a new group with a new sound.....in worn torn dresses that somebody threw out. Well not quite, but lots of beads missing. The cover should have at least had them in their red pantsuits from Sullivan [[for the cover?) and their sliver pantsuits from Williams [[on the back cover and tear away poster?)

The red pantsuits would eventually make their appearance on "New Ways" but the whole front concept of that album is something else.

In the RIGHT ON! photos, Cindy seems to be wearing the same wig she wore during the last Sullivan appearance. So maybe they were taken around that time. I haven't seen any photos of them wearing either outfit during the farewell engagement so maybe they had time to get alterations done for in time for a quick photo session. Tony Turner says that Mary showed him a copy of the album when he drove them around NYC in February of 1970. He was disappointed to see old gowns and Mary replied that they had to work with what they had.


Re the New Ways cover, I have to admit that I find nothing wrong with it. I was a kid when it came out and I thought it was sort of cool that there were all of these different photos and the gatefold cover. Re its title, since both the album and the single STONED LOVE were released the same month, they probably weren't sure the latter was going to be a hit. As I recall reading, Berry wasn't too fond of the song and only relented to it being released once he was assured a major radio chain was going to play it.

[marybrewster]

Speaking of, I've never really seen a lot of photos from the "Right On" sessions [[if you will) other than what was on the album. Certainly there must have been more poses, unless truly it was a quick session between Diana leaving and Jean officially joining.

Truthfully I kind of like the "New Ways" cover. A gatefold with all these little glorious photos of the new Supremes.

I've told this story before but I remember the first time I saw [[and bought) this LP. It was very pre-Internet and pre-Dreamgirl, so there wasn't a lot of information out there on the Supremes.

I had no idea there was such a grouping after Diana left, so I spent HOURS trying to figure out which girl on "New Ways" was Diana Ross. Lol. Boy did I have a lot to learn .

[bradsupremes]

Here's my release schedule. I swapped out songs and changed things up a bit.

1970
February: "Up The Ladder To The Roof" b/w "Bill, When Are You Coming Back"

April: "Then We Can Try Again" b/w "You Move Me"

April: New Ways But Love Stays LP [[Retitled Right On)

June: "Everybody's Got The Right To Love" b/w "But I Love You More"

August: "River Deep, Mountain High" b/w "Ain't Nothing Like The Real Thing"[[Four Tops duet)

September: The Magnificent 7 LP

October: Stone Love LP [[Retitled New Ways But Love Stays)

October: "Stone Love" b/w "Shine On Me"

December: "Without The One You Love" b/w "Knock On My Door" [[Four Tops duet)

1971
February: "Together We Can Make Such Sweet Music" b/w "Thank Him For Today"

April: "It's Time To Break Down" b/w "I Wish I Were Your Mirror"

June: Touch LP

July: "Nathan Jones" b/w "Happy [[Is A Bumpy Road)"

September: "Here Comes The Sunrise" b/w "Touch"

September: The Return of The Magnificent 7 LP

October: "Hello Stranger" b/w "I'm Glad About It" [[Four Tops duet)

December: Promises Kept LP

1972
January: "Tears Left Over" b/w "Make It With You"

April: "Floy Joy" b/w "It's So Hard For Me To Say Goodbye"

May: Floy Joy LP

July: "Your Wonderful Sweet Sweet Love" b/w "Precious Little Things"

[reese]

Speaking of, I've never really seen a lot of photos from the "Right On" sessions [[if you will) other than what was on the album. Certainly there must have been more poses, unless truly it was a quick session between Diana leaving and Jean officially joining.


I've also seen photos of JMC wearing the same wigs, along with the NO MATTER WHAT SIGN YOU ARE gowns. Most likely, they were taken at the same session.

[gordy_hunk]

I must have missed something somewhere, but why are so many people calling the song "Stone love" when it was "Stoned love"?

I remember reading many years ago that Berry Gordy didn't want the LP to be called 'Stoned love' as it may appear that the Supremes were advocating taking drugs. But the single was released - which didn't seem to cause any issues [[well, not here, who knows in the USA).

[lucky2012]

Here's my release schedule. I swapped out songs and changed things up a bit.


@bradsupremes: Great schedule! So interesting to see how others feel about the music. Your B-sides are all very strong choices, imo. Are they favorites you felt were not A-sides or maybe were potential A-sides for some DJs to flip over?

[RanRan79]

Barry White + Supremes

very interesting!

my only reason to pause is Barry is marvelous at orchestration but is he really a group producer? i'm actually asking as i'm really not all that personally familiar with his work, other than the mega hits we all know

His work with Love Unlimited is fantastic. IMO no one in Love Unlimited was really a "singer". To me they were a throwback to the girl group era of the 60s when all you needed was 3-5 young ladies who you might hear humming around the house [[and your ears wouldn't bleed) plus a catchy song, as opposed to a group of women doing "serious" music. So I figure if Barry could get such a positive out of Glodean and the girls, what wonders might he have been able to do with the quality of singers that were Jean, Mary and Lynda?

But I'm also a HUGE fan of Barry White and his productions [[at one time I was trying to collect everything he produced on other artists but I can't recall if I completed the task) so I'm biased.:cool:

[RanRan79]

Oooh I like the Thom Bell and Barry White ideas. A whole, proper Stevie album would have been good too I think. I'll also throw in Willie Hutch who I don't think has been mentioned before... he did some really great stuff on Sisters Love which could have fitted The Supremes well. :)

Willie Hutch is an interesting name to throw into the hat. I wonder if his Sisters Love stuff might've been too heavy a sound for the group?

[RanRan79]

I must have missed something somewhere, but why are so many people calling the song "Stone love" when it was "Stoned love"?

I remember reading many years ago that Berry Gordy didn't want the LP to be called 'Stoned love' as it may appear that the Supremes were advocating taking drugs. But the single was released - which didn't seem to cause any issues [[well, not here, who knows in the USA).

I believe the song's original title is "Stone Love", but was misprinted as "Stoned" and has been officially documented as "Stoned Love" ever since. I'm guessing folks are taking historical accuracy too far with this one.:p I'll stick to "Stoned Love" myself. Old habits and all.

[RanRan79]

I love the idea of renaming Right On NWBLS, which would've seemed to make more sense. Could've kept the same cover art as RO. I'll go a step forward and say that a song should have been written called "New Ways But Love Stays" and been the debut single instead of "Ladder". Diana left the group to "Someday" which has a goodbye element to it, so Jean could've come in with "New Ways But Love Stays" which might have been about losing love but finding a different love and reconciling the fact that love is the constant. [[I'm not a songwriter so don't shoot me.) "Ladder" could've then been the second single. Maybe a third from NWBLS and then "Stoned Love". The obvious would've been to title the second album after the big hit, "Stoned Love", but if that were not the decision then the second album would've been more appropriately titled Right On, with the 'fro cover and the "concepty" flow of the original album. Just my thoughts.

[sup_fan]

Speaking of, I've never really seen a lot of photos from the "Right On" sessions [[if you will) other than what was on the album. Certainly there must have been more poses, unless truly it was a quick session between Diana leaving and Jean officially joining.

Truthfully I kind of like the "New Ways" cover. A gatefold with all these little glorious photos of the new Supremes.

I've told this story before but I remember the first time I saw [[and bought) this LP. It was very pre-Internet and pre-Dreamgirl, so there wasn't a lot of information out there on the Supremes.

I had no idea there was such a grouping after Diana left, so I spent HOURS trying to figure out which girl on "New Ways" was Diana Ross. Lol. Boy did I have a lot to learn .

there are a handful of pics but relatively few poses. the shot used for the poster and the shot used for the back cover have multiple poses. it's very very subtle but if you look closely you'll see some small differences in smiles and angles of heads. i think the session involved the black dresses, the gold dresses and the silver jumpsuits.

at the time there was no certainty that either D solo or the New Sups would succeed. what if Ladder had completely flopped? they might have tried 1 more single but that would have been it. after that the group would have disbanded most likely. and what if D had totally flopped and the group was only doing so-so? would they have re-positioned things to make it appear Jean was a temp sub while diana played a bit and then rightfully rejoined her sisters?

so they didn't want to necessarily invest a zillion $ in gowns if the group wouldn't last. once Ladder hit they did develop a lot of new outfits for the girls just in 1970 alone - after the red ones and they had the green fringe jumpsuits, the lavender jumpsuits with the bolero jackets, the white poncho pantsuits, the pink ones from Glen.

then there are some additional outfits that didn't really appear on tv. Plus there's a rare/odd pic of JMC in rehearsal for Glen but in matching that aren't performance gowns. and there are publicity pics of them in these long trench coats

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[sup_fan]

I love the idea of renaming Right On NWBLS, which would've seemed to make more sense. Could've kept the same cover art as RO. I'll go a step forward and say that a song should have been written called "New Ways But Love Stays" and been the debut single instead of "Ladder". Diana left the group to "Someday" which has a goodbye element to it, so Jean could've come in with "New Ways But Love Stays" which might have been about losing love but finding a different love and reconciling the fact that love is the constant. [[I'm not a songwriter so don't shoot me.) "Ladder" could've then been the second single. Maybe a third from NWBLS and then "Stoned Love". The obvious would've been to title the second album after the big hit, "Stoned Love", but if that were not the decision then the second album would've been more appropriately titled Right On, with the 'fro cover and the "concepty" flow of the original album. Just my thoughts.

i think Right On was a more hip and current expression and fit well with the theme of relaunching the group. NW was actually the third lp [[after RO and Mag 7) and so at that point it was a big odd to keep hammering the idea of the new group. they'd already relaunched themselves and established with several hits. about half of the Supremes lp releases are titled off of a single or song title.

i will give motown credit though for investing in these first lps. RO had a tear-away poster. and both Mag 7 and NW had gatefold covers with die cuts. all of these production and printing techniques add significant cost and require additional lead time. For RO to be ready for an april release they probably had to have the art work complete earlier than if it had been a standard lp jacket. yeah they'd had their wonderful debut on Ed Sullivan by then and MIGHT have been able to sneak in a more current pic in a more current outfit. but still they had to get those art files released

and let's not overlook diana's initial albums - the back cover of the debut is the same gold lame gown worn on Hollywood Palace for the Hair medley. and the cover of Everything is Everything is the jumpsuit she wore under the feather boas singing Everything's Coming Up Roses in the Leading Lady medley from On Broadway.

[sup_fan]

I must have missed something somewhere, but why are so many people calling the song "Stone love" when it was "Stoned love"?

I remember reading many years ago that Berry Gordy didn't want the LP to be called 'Stoned love' as it may appear that the Supremes were advocating taking drugs. But the single was released - which didn't seem to cause any issues [[well, not here, who knows in the USA).

the girls do not actually say the word Stoned. they say the word Stone. in the actual lyrics sung, the word is not past tense.

also the release dates for both the single and the lp were October 70. the single was not out on the market for a period of time, generating controversy and all and then causing the lp to be delayed while they scrambled to rename it. based on my work in marketing and printing, i'd estimate that the album artwork would have had to been released at least a month prior to being on the streets for sale. print set ups, test runs, actually production process, shipping and receiving. the lead time for this work is considerable and so they would have most likely wrapped up the designs by some time in August.

now perhaps in offices they debating calling it Stoned Love w/ the fro pic on the cover and people might have felt that was too radical for the prim proper Supremes. and when the single was released, CBS cut their singing it on the Merv Griffin show. But there's no way that controversy from the single with the public directly impacted the album art design for NW because it just can't happen from a logistical standpoint

[jim aka jtigre99]

To be honest, I loved Nathan Jones and Touch but there was very little presence on television at the time to promote it like there had been for the earlier singles. It didn't flop, but with more exposure it may have hit as well as Stoned Love did. I think once Motown hit with Diana on Ain't No Mountain that the group was even less of a priority. I also thought well, Diana released reach Out and Touch as her first single and it only hit #20, while the Supremes released a similar slow type song with a similar message as their second single Everybody's Got The Right To Love and it placed very similar to Diana on the charts at #21. Since Berry Gordy didn't like their biggest hit Stoned Love, that all but sealed their fate-if the President of the record company doesn't care than you are fighting a lost cause. Mary was friendly with Flip Wilson, Tom Jones, Sammy Davis, Sonny & Cher and Glen Campbell and all of them had variety shows at the time which gave them much needed exposure. I remember after Touch thinking I don't have as much $$$ to spend on so many releases so I bought singles but fortunately I won Floy Joy off of the radio and a friend gave me Jimmy Webb as a present. It is odd that on New ways they didn't release a second single because you would think there would be momentum after having their biggest hit and on High Energy, there was only one single IGLMHDTW even though that was the first single to hit top 40 in 3-4 years. I think that Motown knew the value in the Supremes' name and that they still had many fans but they also wanted to prove that Diana was indespensable but would never be able to do that if the group went on to bigger heights without her, which totally could have been possible had Motown been behind them forging an updated sound and look when jean was there or a disco visual when Scherrie was there. I think there was lots of missteps because Motown didn't care to advance them, they traded off the name so they could get what they could from the marketability of the Supremes name, making them a road act without a huge hit.

[sup_fan]

if you look at the business perspective, motown did invest a lot in the group early on. 3 expensive lps with fancy covers and posters, booking them into top venues and onto a top of tv programs, magazine ads, they even released a special interview version of the Touch lp for djs.

could they have done more - of course. was the overall marketing and promotional budget for the Supremes in 1970 as has as it was in 1968? i'm guessing not. but was it $0? absolutely not.

So they've put a pretty decent push behind the girls with 6 albums released and 7 singles between 1970 and 71. but the singles charted at ladder 10, Everybody 21, Stoned 7, River 14, Nathan 16, Gotta have love 55, touch 77. and the albums charted at RO 25, Mag 7 113, NW 68, Return 154, Touch 85, Dynamite 160

do a trend line on those chart positions and you'll see there's a clear decline over the two years. in the meantime, the J5, Stevie, Temps and Marvin are all selling very strongly.

if you had $10,000 of additional budget, where would you spend it? would you give the money to the team working on the next J5 or Temps project and get a return on the money of 20:1 or would you give to the Sups team and have a return of maybe 2:1? or a negative return?

[daviddh]

I love the idea of renaming Right On NWBLS, which would've seemed to make more sense. Could've kept the same cover art as RO. I'll go a step forward and say that a song should have been written called "New Ways But Love Stays" and been the debut single instead of "Ladder". Diana left the group to "Someday" which has a goodbye element to it, so Jean could've come in with "New Ways But Love Stays" which might have been about losing love but finding a different love and reconciling the fact that love is the constant. [[I'm not a songwriter so don't shoot me.) "Ladder" could've then been the second single. Maybe a third from NWBLS and then "Stoned Love". The obvious would've been to title the second album after the big hit, "Stoned Love", but if that were not the decision then the second album would've been more appropriately titled Right On, with the 'fro cover and the "concepty" flow of the original album. Just my thoughts.
I totally agree. so many great songs but I think Motown eye wasn't on the ball anymore, I think the idea of moving to LA was starting to take its toll on everyone. to many mistakes. there seemed to be no real plan , just go and release whatever and see what sticks.

[daviddh]

just wanted to point out that BG offered to manage the group twice, once with Jean in the groupo and then again in 1975 or so with Scherrie . Mary turned him down both times claiming " i dont want to loose control again" ., which to me says it all. she wanted control of the group. the group failed. motown gave up on them.

[blackguy69]

just wanted to point out that BG offered to manage the group twice, once with Jean in the groupo and then again in 1975 or so with Scherrie . Mary turned him down both times claiming " i dont want to loose control again" ., which to me says it all. she wanted control of the group. the group failed. motown gave up on them.
Not quite Motown was managing the group when Jean left. BG offered in 76 not 75 to manage the group again and that’s when Mary refused.

[marv2]

The Promises Kept lp was scheduled to be released in Dec 71, same month that the Dynamite duet album was released. i wonder how many of the duets were actually recorded together as duets. versus having two separate leads cut and glued together.

half of Dynamite was produced by Frank Wilson and all of Return of Mag 7. I wonder if any of the songs were really intended for the Supremes by themselves. they had pretty much stopped recording new "duet" material by summer 71 so Dynamite is the producers dusting off some tunes to assemble into an lp. Love The One You're With doesn't even have a Levi lead to it.

So in addition to the 19 "Promises Kept" tracks we've had released, the various JMC tracks like The Day Will Come Between Sunday and Monday, Life Beats and more, plus the potential duets tracks, i wonder what the final PK album could have been like

The single, "Floy Joy" was released in December 1971.

[marv2]

When you think about the Supremes and 1970/1971, they released SIX albums in two years. That's unheard of today; an artist MIGHT release an album every three years.

I think the Supremes were just over saturated in the market. After "Right On", the group should have gone directly into "New Ways". The duets albums with the Tops seem more like a last ditch effort; the New Supremes were hot, so why mess with the formula? However when "New Ways" stalled [[which I still can't believe only charted in the high 60's with a #1 R & B hit) THEN they should have tried the "Magnificent 7". With that being a flop, the next step should have been "Promises Kept" and scrapped "Return" and "Dynamite". From there they could have went to "Touch".

Thoughts?

They couldn't have done that since the album "Touch" was released already in June, 1971. The proposed album, "Promises Kept" was not very good from the songs I've heard. The duet albums both sounded better. Looking at the actual release dates of these albums it is easy to see that Motown was releasing the duet albums with the Four Tops either the month before or after the Supremes albums. Both would be on the market at the same time. Was that a good idea? I don't so. It drew sales away from the Supremes albums.

[marv2]

i heard a rumor [[and it's mostly likely that, but still intriguing) that You Gotta Have Love was originally intended for just the Sups. not a duet. could have been interesting single for them 1) if they'd allowed more of Jean sensational singing at the end to make the final edit and 2) maybe adjust the backing track to be more rock and less sing-song bouncy.

totally agree about the over saturation. i think the combo of too much material on the market and the poor marketing plan for the album design of NWBLS is to blame for the poor chart performance. as we all would have liked, just imagine if the cover WAS the fro shot and the title Stone Love [[notice the correct spelling of the first word - never in the lyric do they sing Stoned. always Stone)

i can see the sensational store displays and posters. maybe the back cover could have been one of those wonderful shots of the girls in the green fringe jumpsuits outdoors. or this one of them walking. the attitude and hipness of the outfits [[so chic but no vegas) sums up the girls for me at this time

14711

14712

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also love this billboard pose

14714


They were some super fine sistas! Whew!!!!!

[marv2]

Not quite Motown was managing the group when Jean left. BG offered in 76 not 75 to manage the group again and that’s when Mary refused.

Wayne Wiesbart was their manager at the time Jean Terrell left.

[blackguy69]

Wayne Wiesbart was their manager at the time Jean Terrell left.
No Bill Leon was their manager

[sup_fan]

The single, "Floy Joy" was released in December 1971.

yep - by that time it seems the idea of Promises Kept was being put on the back burner. out of all material recorded in 71, i think Floy Joy was among the strongest. But also thing Tears Left Over was a hot track. but i do agree that a lot of the PK material is only ok at best. i don't think assembling a bunch of the random tracks and stuffing them into an lp would be have been a wise decision. not after the excellent previous 3 lps.

Perhaps you could have cobbled something together using:

Tears left over
Love the one you're with
Can't get you out of my mind
make it with you
take your dreams back
All i need
mind body and soul
i'll let him know i love him
never can say goodbye
and i thought you loved me

FJ [[the song) was recorded in October, around the same time as a bunch of the other PK songs. i guess they were just experimenting with producers and out of the collection of songs, FJ seemed the strongest. so it was released in Dec. once it started to hit, they went back into studio and recorded the rest of the lp material in Jan and Feb

[daviddh]

seemed like a long time for the Floy Joy lp to come out. May 72
.i do like some of the PK tracks, Tears Left Over, Remote Control, and there are some gems from the Right On sessions.
always thought Life Beats was really good.

[sup_fan]

i'm guessing because of the change with Cindy to Lynda. All of the recording was done by late Feb/early March. so you're right. typically it would have been ready by late March or April. but that was right when they were auditioning Lynda. so they would have needed to get her in place, do a new photo shoot, etc

also this was exactly right at the time of the final move from Detroit to LA so the offices would have been in chaos for a week or two.

[blackguy69]

Floy Joy the album wasn’t late if you compare the other releases with their lead off sungle

[daviddh]

the group had started to sudder when diana was in the group in 1968, some unusual ,under the caliber singles were released. this seem to follow a pattern for diana in her solo years and for the supremes.
why would they release Everybodys got the right, doesn't have a Motown feel to it. good lp cut but not a single. to many good cuts from Right On .and even more gems in the vaults from these sessions ...and they should have really promoted that lp with more singles, and kept SL and New Ways until 1971. I wasn't into the duets with the 4 tops, a few gems but mostly below par .

[daviddh]

Floy Joy the album wasn’t late if you compare the other releases with their lead off sungle it just seems like a long gap between the led song n the lp. there seem to be little pr on this until the last single