What if Mary hadn’t been dropped

[sup_fan]

While her solo debut wasn’t a strong seller, there are some good moments on the lp and the Gus Dungeon tracks for a follow up were amazing.

Not sure of timing is exactly right but when Diana left in 81, what if Motown had actually allowed Mary to do her second lp?

[jobeterob]

Mary Wilson does not have a commercial hit making voice

She needed to be part of a group with a distinctive lead singer to have hits

I don’t think it would make any difference what label she made it on to or who produced her; that’s the reason she never attracted any major producer during their hit making days

[milven]

Why would Mary have to wait for Diana to leave Motown before Mary was properly promoted? Eddie and David [[and later Dennis) came from the same group and were able to compete as soloists and have major hits. Plus, they were also competing with their former group.

I saw Mary's debut at New York, New York. It was okay, but she already concentrated too much on The Supremes. She did a cute part where she said she was a member of the group and then did a medley of ooooos and ahhhhhhhs. It was cute and funny. She should have left it at that and then said, "That was then, and this is now" and then start singing songs better suited for her like the wonderful ballads that she is capable of doing.
But she didn't.

And somewhere during that time frame, she was even doing previously committed dates for her Supremes Inc Comapany and performing as a Supreme even though that group already had a farewell performance.

Further confusing is that when her solo career was not launched properly or perhaps had trouble getting booking, she used the Supremes name in various billings. [[Mary Wilson and the Supremes, THE SUPREMES' mary wilson. mary wilson of THE SUPREMES, etc) She used the name and the Supremes catalogue as a crutch and basically was performing a Supremes show, not a solo show. That made it difficult for a solo career to emerge. Diana got criticized for almost dismissing her Supremes career in her concerts by singing a brief medley. But she did move her solo career forward.

Mary has all the qualities now that she needed then to have a solo career. She has the voice, ambition, aggressivenes,and condidence in herself. If she had those qualities then, perhaps the outcome would have been different.

But the majority of Mary's career has been touring as a "Supreme" and now the appearances are sometimes sharing the billing with the remnants of other Motown groups.

Diana, too,now is devoting a large part of her concert to Supremes songs.

But as I said in an earlier post, why see these former Supremes sing Supremes songs when the original voice of the group is still out there doing it?

I am a fan of Mary and have seen her in concert and in plays. But I will avoid any Supremes Mary show.

Mary is credited with keeping the Supreme Legacy alive. Maybe it's the reverse.

[sup_fan]

i agree that mary's voice limits the genres of music she might find success in. her debut lp is evidence of that. but i think the 4 Gus tracks are very strong. a bit more "tina turned/what's love got to do with it" sound. by late 80, disco was done for the most part. and frankly so was Diana at motown - she'd leave in just a few months.

Did motown miss the opportunity to have another female solo artist that wouldn't necessarily replace diana but would have allowed them to venture into more 80s rock and power ballad area?

[jim aka jtigre99]

Motown missed many opportunities where Mary and the post-Ross Supremes were concerned. Motown was not interested in Mary period. Her voice , being a contralto, never fit into Motown's vocal confinements. Mary's voice is distinctive and one of my favorites but pop music has always been more geared towards sopranos until the era of Sade and Anita Baker. The four unreleased songs were gems to anyone who has an ear for music but that music was not Motown's forte.

[PeaceNHarmony]

I don't think it would have made any difference whatsoever. Even viewing YT clips now of recent performances she has at best an average voice and no real stage presence.

[blackguy69]

I beg to differ. Despite some of the comments posted here, I think Mary would have had a better shot if Smokey was producing her. Not to slight Hal Davis but some of the material on that album needed a serious overhaul.

[blackguy69]

Why would Mary have to wait for Diana to leave Motown before Mary was properly promoted? Eddie and David [[and later Dennis) came from the same group and were able to compete as soloists and have major hits. Plus, they were also competing with their former group.

I saw Mary's debut at New York, New York. It was okay, but she already concentrated too much on The Supremes. She did a cute part where she said she was a member of the group and then did a medley of ooooos and ahhhhhhhs. It was cute and funny. She should have left it at that and then said, "That was then, and this is now" and then start singing songs better suited for her like the wonderful ballads that she is capable of doing.
But she didn't.

And somewhere during that time frame, she was even doing previously committed dates for her Supremes Inc Comapany and performing as a Supreme even though that group already had a farewell performance.

Further confusing is that when her solo career was not launched properly or perhaps had trouble getting booking, she used the Supremes name in various billings. [[Mary Wilson and the Supremes, THE SUPREMES' mary wilson. mary wilson of THE SUPREMES, etc) She used the name and the Supremes catalogue as a crutch and basically was performing a Supremes show, not a solo show. That made it difficult for a solo career to emerge. Diana got criticized for almost dismissing her Supremes career in her concerts by singing a brief medley. But she did move her solo career forward.

Mary has all the qualities now that she needed then to have a solo career. She has the voice, ambition, aggressivenes,and condidence in herself. If she had those qualities then, perhaps the outcome would have been different.

But the majority of Mary's career has been touring as a "Supreme" and now the appearances are sometimes sharing the billing with the remnants of other Motown groups.

Diana, too,now is devoting a large part of her concert to Supremes songs.

But as I said in an earlier post, why see these former Supremes sing Supremes songs when the original voice of the group is still out there doing it?

I am a fan of Mary and have seen her in concert and in plays. But I will avoid any Supremes Mary show.

Mary is credited with keeping the Supreme Legacy alive. Maybe it's the reverse.
to put it in perspective Mary was stuck between a rock and a hard place. Since that South American tour wasn’t cancelled, scherrie and Susaye wasn’t doing it and being threatened to get sued, she had to make a choice. Unfortunately that choice stuck with her for quite a while.

[bradsupremes]

I truly believe Mary would have had a hit with "Save Me" and "Love Talk." Gus Dungeon was onto something with those tracks. Mary didn't have a commercial voice, but she really sells those songs and the production is outstanding.

[midnightman]

I honestly don't know. Maybe if business had been handled differently than it was, she would've been able to produce a successful niche where she didn't have to rely on the Supremes... she surely had more opportunities than your average ex-member of a hugely successful vocal group. All members of Labelle were able to make successful transitions as solo artists but the world's most successful group of all time only had one of them that managed to be a bigger success.

[jim aka jtigre99]

I don't think Mary had more opportunities, Motown gave her a solo contract to stop her lawsuit, which she had an excellent case. They half-heartedly produced one album that was a dance/disco LP. With these tracks she was let go because Motown said it was only doing dance music. Since her first LP was not her forte and was not a major hit, no other label would seriously think of her talents. Motown made it seem as if by choosing Diana and her great success that none of the others were talented or would do well. They all sang well and could have easily had a different type of hit but like ABC with Flo, they were trying to recreate a sound rather than focus on the talents. When the mass public thinks Stoned Love was by Diana Ross & The Supremes you know the record company succeeded

[jim aka jtigre99]

I also want to make clear that I am not making light or making a disparaging comment on Diana Ross' amazing talents, it just seems that Motown made it clear that she was chosen because she was the talent so her sound is associated with the success. Mary, Flo and all of the other members have their own sound which is different from Diana's vocals. Other record companies thinking they had a Supreme might expect them to sound just like Diana and when hearing ex-Supreme, that is what the mass public may expect as well. Mary has her own unique voice and had they been able to share more on television like they did with Jean and Scherrie, the mass public would have heard them aside from oohs and baby babys. Mary could have easily been Motown's female balladeer but I feel the company wanted Diana's sound to be the only sound. By the time Mary was solo, disco was raging and Motown was slowly losing its grip on the current sound. I think Motown needed to widen its scope at the time. We now have Mary, Scherrie and Susaye all out touring as well as Miss Ross and all sound amazing for being in their mid 70's. I just salute them all, something I feel Motown never really did

[sup_fan]

popular music has greatly expanded over the years. a zillion different "niche" genres have opened up. while i don't know the mary would ever have been selling the same volumes as Diana, i do think, if properly produced, she could have done a more. the ballads obviously, but the easier rock/soul too. similar to what Martha did with Richard Perry [[an album i adore from start to finish!). Maybe it's a bit more of a southern rock vibe rather than heavy rock.

But mary has also had an history of some serious business missteps. IMO there are quite a few times through the 60s sups, 70s sups and solo where alternate choices could have been made which might have greatly changed situations.

At the same time, motown was NOT interested in developing other female talent. it truly was focused solely on Diana. and not that diana didn't deserve every thing that came her way. But the thinking that by simultaneously developing other female singers would diminish Diana's impact is just inaccurate. Martha and Gladys Knight could have been made into much bigger stars while at Motown and in totally different styles.

[jobeterob]

At least Gladys had some impact away from Motown and Martha had quite a career at Motown, but Mary had no career outside of what she made of her involvement with Diana and the Supremes

[PeaceNHarmony]

Well I guess she could have had a hit or two - after all, so did Paula Abdul and Pia Zadora, and no one ever accused them of being good singers either - but as for a career, I just don't see it.

[TheMotownManiac]

I also want to make clear that I am not making light or making a disparaging comment on Diana Ross' amazing talents, it just seems that Motown made it clear that she was chosen because she was the talent so her sound is associated with the success. Mary, Flo and all of the other members have their own sound which is different from Diana's vocals. Other record companies thinking they had a Supreme might expect them to sound just like Diana and when hearing ex-Supreme, that is what the mass public may expect as well. Mary has her own unique voice and had they been able to share more on television like they did with Jean and Scherrie, the mass public would have heard them aside from oohs and baby babys. Mary could have easily been Motown's female balladeer but I feel the company wanted Diana's sound to be the only sound. By the time Mary was solo, disco was raging and Motown was slowly losing its grip on the current sound. I think Motown needed to widen its scope at the time. We now have Mary, Scherrie and Susaye all out touring as well as Miss Ross and all sound amazing for being in their mid 70's. I just salute them all, something I feel Motown never really did
No one wanted Mary to be their balladeer. Berry Gordy didn’t like her voice and, frankly, most folks I know agree. She has developed very well, but had nothing viable to offer to the public in the 60s or 70s why is why no one at Motown was behind her and no other labels touched her after she split. They wouldn’t even let her sub for Jean when she was sick - lynda, at her first show as a Supreme, was chosen to do the lead when she could not have been prepared as well as Mary - yet she was it or they were going to cancel. THATS how little belief Motown had in Mary as a soloist. I don’t think there was much anyone could have done to make her into a radio hit - and that’s what she wanted.

[TheMotownManiac]

[QUOTE=sup_fan;475767]i agree that mary's voice limits the genres of music she might find success in. her debut lp is evidence of that. but i think the 4 Gus tracks are very strong. a bit more "tina turned/what's love got to do with it" sound. by late 80, disco was done for the most part. and frankly so was Diana at motown - she'd leave in just a few months.

Did motown miss the opportunity to have another female solo artist that wouldn't necessarily replace diana but would have allowed them to venture into more 80s rock and power ballad area?[/QUOTE

No because even with her chosen style, Mary’s voice is still very limited in its appeal as her performance style. She’s not original in that genre and who needs Mary aping a Tina when we have the real Tina as the biggest female draw in the world? All labels had access to her and the industry would have been all over her if she had the goods.

‘’I believe the question should possibly be, “Would anyone be interested in Mary as a solo IF she had never been pre-sold to us as a member of our beloved Supremes?”

[TheMotownManiac]

popular music has greatly expanded over the years. a zillion different "niche" genres have opened up. while i don't know the mary would ever have been selling the same volumes as Diana, i do think, if properly produced, she could have done a more. the ballads obviously, but the easier rock/soul too. similar to what Martha did with Richard Perry [[an album i adore from start to finish!). Maybe it's a bit more of a southern rock vibe rather than heavy rock.

But mary has also had an history of some serious business missteps. IMO there are quite a few times through the 60s sups, 70s sups and solo where alternate choices could have been made which might have greatly changed situations.

At the same time, motown was NOT interested in developing other female talent. it truly was focused solely on Diana. and not that diana didn't deserve every thing that came her way. But the thinking that by simultaneously developing other female singers would diminish Diana's impact is just inaccurate. Martha and Gladys Knight could have been made into much bigger stars while at Motown and in totally different styles.

I disagree. In 6 years, Motown signed, developed and took Gladys from the chitlin circuit to national mainstream prominence, a Grammy, top ten album and The Copa.

BG never gave up on Martha despite many legit reasons to do so. The likes of Richard Perry and Clive Davis also failed to launch her and each had both professional and financial stakes in her career.

Motown developed one of the most successful female singers ever and 3 iconic male legends. That’s a helluva track record right there - yet they were working with Syreeta, Thelma, TATa and others.

[midnightman]

Interesting to point out, MotownManiac. But yeah that is telling that when Jean couldn't do the next few shows, Lynda was the one to replace her and brought Cindy back rather than let Mary do all the leads.

[Motown Eddie]

While her solo debut wasn’t a strong seller, there are some good moments on the lp and the Gus Dungeon tracks for a follow up were amazing.

Not sure of timing is exactly right but when Diana left in 81, what if Motown had actually allowed Mary to do her second lp?

I feel that we'll never know what would've happened if Motown allowed Mary Wilson to do her second solo album [[and aggressively promoted it across the board). I also believe that the only reason that Mary got to do her first LP is to resolve the problems between Wilson & Motown [[see Mary's second book, Supreme Faith, for the details on this). In short, Gordy wanted to "wash his hands" of Mary and move on.

[alanbill1074]

The debut LP just wasn’t very good. Even a poor singer can have a hit with the right song and a bit of backing. I thought the Gus tracks had potential to do something but nothing on that debut was hit material. The problem with Motown sometimes was that they didn’t look outside often enough, with a couple of exceptions for Diana. If they’d really wanted a hit on Mary they’d have gone to Europe for a sound that better suited her. They just didn’t want her to have a hit.

[TheMotownManiac]

Oh, I think they would have been thrilled to get a hit on Mary - or anyone. Remember, the company was awash in red ink and needed to increase sales - on anyone. They just didn’t expect to get a hit on her as they didn’t see potential in her - nor did any other label. This isn’t a Motown thing, she could have gone anywhere - and would have - but there were no takers. Folks need to stop looking at this as a Motown thing - the entire industry wasn’t interested - and they had years to see her abilities.

[blackguy69]

No it was a Motown thing.

[TheMotownManiac]

Why? Mary was showcased in The Supremes for a dozen years before Red Hot - any label could have taken her at any time. She knew tons of industry Heavy weights like Smokey, Stevie, HDH, Frank Wilson and A&S just to name a few who KNEW her abilities and could have moved her forward if they thought it worth it. She didn’t have the chops. Even the Gus tapes couldn’t get released and they were shopped mercilessly. What if she had a small, avid fan base that adore her every move and yet not enough widespread appeal to go anywhere? What if she really isn’t that special or wonderful? What is the entire recording industry knows something her fans don’t? I wish Mary had a fab Motown solo career. I wish it for her and for her fans. Who knows the cool stuff we’d have witnessed and enjoyed? Everything would have been different - no need for Dreamgirl or animosity to be RTL or much of the survival drama that ensued. Mary’s success was a benefit for all concerned but it just was not meant to be -

WHY is it a Motown thing?

[blackguy69]

I would agree with you if she hadn’t recorded anything since being dropped from Motown. But that isn’t the case.

[luke]

Well Neil Bogart was going to sign her. I wonder how that would’ve gone. She has the charisma of a Donna Summer and the Gus tracks were in that vein.

[marv2]

Well Neil Bogart was going to sign her. I wonder how that would’ve gone. She has the charisma of a Donna Summer and the Gus tracks were in that vein.

Fantasy Records and Atlantic wanted to sign Mary also. Peter Stringfellow wanted to start a label for her, as did Merv Griffin.

[RanRan79]

Mary got in Mary's way. There's no evidence that after leaving Motown, Mary aggressively did anything to get another record deal. And lets be honest, that's the only way she was going to get one is by relentlessly going after it herself. The labels only chase after the big names and while Mary was a member of the most successful and famous of female groups, the name Mary Wilson doesn't have an ounce of the weight the name Diana Ross had when Ross left Motown for RCA. Mary had to deal with her family drama and financial issues, which Diana helped her with. And then what was she doing? She had a "resurgence" of interest due to Motown 25, but she took that and decided to write a book instead. And then after the book, she promoted that and IMO got stuck on being a Supreme again. By the time she did "Walk the Line", nobody cared. Mary's time was the 80s and she needed someone in her corner who knew how to get things done, but she didn't have that and apparently she wasn't that type herself.

There's also no evidence that had Mary still been with Motown when Diana left that the label would've suddenly found use for her. Things got personal between Mary and Berry. I wish some of y'all would stop acting like business doesn't get personal. He wasn't interested in making her a star, Ross or no Ross. Berry didn't like women telling him how to treat them. They got shown the door every time. Even Ross, eventually.

[Roberta75]

Well Neil Bogart was going to sign her. I wonder how that would’ve gone. She has the charisma of a Donna Summer and the Gus tracks were in that vein.

Mary started telling that story after Neil Bogart passed which was real convenient as he
wasnt around to confirm it. I personaly never bought it. Ask Ian Levine about recording Mary. LOL She took his cash and ran for the hills. LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

[BayouMotownMan]

Fantasy Records and Atlantic wanted to sign Mary also. Peter Stringfellow wanted to start a label for her, as did Merv Griffin.

Totally untrue. If any of the above labels or moguls had wanted Mary Wilson, they'd have gotten her at a bargain.

[Roberta75]

Totally untrue. If any of the above labels or moguls had wanted Mary Wilson, they'd have gotten her at a bargain.

I agree. If ANY label or Mogul wanted Mary Wilson she wouldve signed up with them inn 30 seconds or less.

[RanRan79]

Does anyone know the story with Atlantic? The demos Mary did there were very good, but there's never been an official story about what happened. Someone in SD once said that negotiations fell through, but that person also claims that Flo Ballard and Diana Ross never had a final conversation before Flo's death, even though both Florence and Diana confirmed the story, so his version of Mary and Atlantic Records has to be taken with a grain of salt. The Atlantic demos are exactly the direction I feel Mary should've gone during that period of time. A shame that it didn't lead to a contract and a full lp.

[blackguy69]

It sounds to me no one really knows the truth.

[marv2]

Totally untrue. If any of the above labels or moguls had wanted Mary Wilson, they'd have gotten her at a bargain.

Can't just say thank you like everyone else when I provide information you had no clue about? What I wrote is 100% true. Regarding the Fantasy Records deal, Mary passed that on to Brenda Holloway, whom you could ask about that. The Atlantic Record deal, Amet Ertigan could have told you, but he passed in,2006. Peter Stringfellow, passed earlier this year and Merv Griffin in 2007, so you're a little late to the party. Just thank me and move on........

[jobeterob]

Just that the facts were there was no contract, no hits, nothing just speculation 49 years later

The facts are strong - there was nothing that came if any of it

[BigAl]

Mary forged ahead with that assortment of new Supremes after Diane left the group because I suppose she was aware that she needed the group’s name, and that a solo go would never have taken off. In that regard, she did very well. Most people didn’t really expect The Supremes to flourish once Diane flew the coop, and here they racked up a handful of respectable hits. Even with the constant ensuing personnel shuffle, Mary hung in there and got plenty of exposure, until it just became too unwieldy to continue with a group. Still, she found herself a niche and I think she’s done very well with it, all things considered. It’s too bad she usually has to dredge up so very much old Supremes material which Diane originally sang, but of course the group is her main claim to fame and she’ll never shed that. However, audiences who come expecting one thing usually are surprised when she performs other material better suited to her voice and style, and most don’t leave disappointed.

[milven]

Can't just say thank you like everyone else when I provide information you had no clue about? What I wrote is 100% true. Regarding the Fantasy Records deal, Mary passed that on to Brenda Holloway, whom you could ask about that. The Atlantic Record deal, Amet Ertigan could have told you, but he passed in,2006. Peter Stringfellow, passed earlier this year and Merv Griffin in 2007, so you're a little late to the party. Just thank me and move on........

Was not aware that Mary had so many deals offered to her. Casablanca, Atlantic, Merv Griffin, Fantasy. These all sound like great deals. Mary wanted a solo career so badly, why, after she left the Official Supremes, did she pass these deals up and continue to tour singing Supremes' songs with the Supremes' name in her billing? [[Mary Wilson & the Supremes, THE SUPREMES' Mary Wilson, Mary Wilson of THE SUPREMES etc.)

And thank you in advance for your replyi

[BayouMotownMan]

Can't just say thank you like everyone else when I provide information you had no clue about? What I wrote is 100% true. Regarding the Fantasy Records deal, Mary passed that on to Brenda Holloway, whom you could ask about that. The Atlantic Record deal, Amet Ertigan could have told you, but he passed in,2006. Peter Stringfellow, passed earlier this year and Merv Griffin in 2007, so you're a little late to the party. Just thank me and move on........

Surely Marv, thank you again for posting consistent misinformation without one source to attribute the info to. Continued success on kissing Miss Wilson's rump in your desperate need for attention from someone within the Motown circle.

[mistercarter2u]

I firmly believe that Motown screwed up royally where Mary was concerned. Her vocals and work with the Supremes, particularly on their 1975 self-titled album,"High Energy," and "Mary, Scherrie, and Susaye," were especially good. Had Motown made her first album ballads and pretty songs, such as the ones on those last Supremes LP's, she could have certainly had a chance at solo recording success. She could have found an audience in the quiet storm arena, but Motown screwed her over royally by putting out that less than stellar disco album. Not only was 80% of the material on that album weak, but it also failed to showcase Mary's voice in a positive light. Then, when she was on the verge of recording music more suited to her and the market, Motown tossed her aside. Shame on Motown!

As for Mary's stage presence, to say she has none is absolutely untrue. She can be very personable on stage, and people who attend her shows get a real treat. Sometimes when she sings the Supremes' hits, they come across as a little sloppy, but people still love them and love her. When she sings ballads and songs better suited to her voice, she can actually soar. I have seen her in concert many times, and I am always amazed by the strength of her performance. Awhile back, a friend who had never liked Ms. Wilson's voice went with me to one of the shows, and after we left, he said he was blown away by what he had heard. He didn't expect her voice to be so good, but it was.

Motown blew it as they intentionally screwed Mary over.

[BayouMotownMan]

I firmly believe that Motown screwed up royally where Mary was concerned. Her vocals and work with the Supremes, particularly on their 1975 self-titled album,"High Energy," and "Mary, Scherrie, and Susaye," were especially good. Had Motown made her first album ballads and pretty songs, such as the ones on those last Supremes LP's, she could have certainly had a chance at solo recording success. She could have found an audience in the quiet storm arena, but Motown screwed her over royally by putting out that less than stellar disco album. Not only was 80% of the material on that album weak, but it also failed to showcase Mary's voice in a positive light. Then, when she was on the verge of recording music more suited to her and the market, Motown tossed her aside. Shame on Motown!


As for Mary's stage presence, to say she has none is absolutely untrue. She can be very personable on stage, and people who attend her shows get a real treat. Sometimes when she sings the Supremes' hits, they come across as a little sloppy, but people still love them and love her. When she sings ballads and songs better suited to her voice, she can actually soar. I have seen her in concert many times, and I am always amazed by the strength of her performance. Awhile back, a friend who had never liked Ms. Wilson's voice went with me to one of the shows, and after we left, he said he was blown away by what he had heard. He didn't expect her voice to be so good, but it was.

Motown blew it as they intentionally screwed Mary over.



It would be a little too easy to blame Motown for the downfall of Mary Wilson and the Supremes. There were far more elements that led up to this than Motown.

Mary herself has all but admitted she made big mistakes taking over the group. The biggest mistake was putting her inexperienced husband in charge. It was here that things started falling apart.

For two years The Supremes were reduced to being a road act. We'd see Mary, Scherrie and Cindy on some of the talk shows and they were excellent. The reviews coming in for Scherrie were sensational. Even though Motown was angry that Mary hired a girl without their knowledge or approval, they had to take notice of Scherrie Payne.

The stage was set for a comeback of the Supremes if only a modest one. The girls were big in the disco market.

Then a chain reaction of disasters started.

First, Pedro fired Cindy. Cindy Birdsong was a beloved member and recognizable to the public. True she was having personal difficulties but nothing that time couldn't cure. This was not the time for another major shake up.

While it can not be argued that Susaye Greene was a dynamic singer, clearly the most powerful of all Supremes, in terms of look and sound this proved to be disastrous. Motown was not happy once again that a change was made without their approval and just basically gave the Ferrers the amount of rope needed to finish off The Supremes

In the recording studio, Susaye ignited fire into the sound of the Supremes. Onstage was another matter. At first the reviews were great, Susaye was singled out for her solo on He Ain't Heavy.

With little promotion from Motown, High Energy became a hit lp after being embraced by the gay club audience. Radio programmers were interested for novelty sake in a regrouping of the Supremes with HDH.
The single made it into the Billboard Top 40, the first time The Supremes placed there in four years. [[On other charts the single placed significantly lower). Again for the final time The Supremes appeared to be on a comeback.

Inner group tensions increased dramatically as Scherrie and Susaye disagreed on Pedro's ability to adequately manage their group and began to act out on their anger. It gradually got to the point that the ladies were competing with each other on stage rather than trying to emulate a group sound. It was the perverbial every-man-for-himself syndrome.

Then came the ill-fated return to Caeser's Palace. Mary has written of it and those of us with a copy of the show can hear that the group just wasn't in sync. The medley was botched and too many show tunes were thrown in. The Motown brass attended this show expecting to see a dynamic rebirth of the legendary Supremes. Instead they saw an amateurish degrading of that legend.

It came to an end at MSG shortly after where the group was jeered offstage halfway into the act.

It was now apparent to everybody, meaning the group members, the fans, the general audience and Motown that the Supremes had self-destructed. There simply was no way of bringing them back after all of this.

So no, I think it unfair to blame Motown in full.

[sup_fan]

^Bayou - always appreciate your insight and information. a very well-balanced overview of the later 70s years with the Sups. And damn!!! so many what-ifs!! between the MSC and MSS lineup, on record, i love MSS best. it was a great combo of the girls and HDH. on stage, total mess. sloppy and a sad relic of their past.

i think onstage MSC were a bit more in sync and together. But then again, some really sloppy tv work like the hideous Tonight Show singing HMM. But there's a clip of them on Dinah lip syncing HMM in the laverdar tops and black pants. they looked hot there

[BayouMotownMan]

Those ball gowns on Carson were totally inappropriate for that song. At one point toward the end they were bending over and you could almost see their full boobs. Mary started ordering gowns that showed way too much skin around this time.

[sup_fan]

while i don't dislike most of the scherrie-era gowns, they weren't the appropriate style for disco. the Tonight Show gowns were pretty and looked great on stage. but for all of the intricate and coordinated choreography for disco they don't work.

And you're right about mary getting carried away with showing skin. those green chiffon gowns with the serpent theme from this era are a great example. her's was the one with no straps or anything holding it up. there's a pic of her in it on stage, sopping wet with sweat and her boobs are barely covered.

[BayouMotownMan]

I thought Pat Campano made them look like hookers, and then later on drag queens. The only creations of his that I liked are the black and silver gowns from Live in Tokyo, the red gowns from the back of Scherrie's first lp and the black robes from Mike Douglas for Let Yourself Go. When they did the first Soul Train with Scherrie they wore those atrocious pink outfits for the first two numbers then Michael Nicole's blue pantsuits from Jean's first Flip Wilson. It's amazing how cheap Campano's looked in comparison. On their last Dinah they came out in these gold fringe numbers with face paint. They were so cheap looking and scary

[jobeterob]

Do you are suggesting even if Motown thought Mary had amazing potential, that she or she and Pedro would not have been able to carry through and be successful??

[sup_fan]

I thought Pat Campano made them look like hookers, and then later on drag queens. The only creations of his that I liked are the black and silver gowns from Live in Tokyo, the red gowns from the back of Scherrie's first lp and the black robes from Mike Douglas for Let Yourself Go. When they did the first Soul Train with Scherrie they wore those atrocious pink outfits for the first two numbers then Michael Nicole's blue pantsuits from Jean's first Flip Wilson. It's amazing how cheap Campano's looked in comparison. On their last Dinah they came out in these gold fringe numbers with face paint. They were so cheap looking and scary

i didn't think they looked that bad. i just think a massive full chiffon skirt isn't appropriate for disco. And i think the gowns were being designed solely for mary and not for what looked good on the group. some of the outfits just further emphasized that drastic height difference between Mary and Susaye

the outfits from the last Soul Train were very good. they orange gowns with the front slit and the sequin wraps and then the brown striped gowns from Come Into My Life.

the red wrapped dresses from back of Sup 75 were ok. i think they look a bit cheap. they don't have the thick coverage of sequins like the earlier hand-made gowns did. looked like fabric you could get at Calico Corners or Jo-Ann Fabrics. but style-wise they're good

i like the revised red dresses from All i Want

those pink things from that early Soul Train show were a mess. the girls looked massive in them. the fabric is too thick and then this huge skirt over bell bottom pants. I've seen a few pics where they're only in the dress [[no pants) and they're better

they should have gone with more of a Halston look - pantsuits, flowing chiffon gowns that could have been bedazzled.

[sup_fan]

Do you are suggesting even if Motown thought Mary had amazing potential, that she or she and Pedro would not have been able to carry through and be successful??

i think that's the case. frankly even without Pedro, mary was a bit of a lost cause at motown. perhaps if she'd opted to take lead when Diana left, berry might have supported things a bit. but i always got the impression that he just felt she wasn't dedicated enough or willing to sacrifice enough. that she was too much into just enjoying her celebrity lifestyle rather than showing huge drive and determination to further her career. i've always got the feeling that he just sort of dismissed her. So by the time she was trying to really lead the group by the mid 70s, it was too little too late.

and then she burned a lot of bridges politically with motown and pedro made things worse

[BayouMotownMan]

Absolutely not Jobete. Motown never thought Mary Wilson could carry the group. Gordy thought when Jean and Lynda left and Mary married Pedro that he was finished with the Supremes and the Ferrers. He had a rude awakening. Despite Mary's fan constantly trying to build her up, Hollywood thought Mary to be a pretty, sexy lady with no real singing or acting ability. While the other ladies in the group who got married and then pregnant were able to be supported by their husbands, Mary could not. She HAD to work. She even worked while being pregnant three times which is hard to do.

I don't defend Motown easily but as a businessman myself I can look back and see the trepadations Motown had with the Supremes after 1973. The group had become inconsistent with too much turnover of members. For a while in late 1973, Mary Wilson was the only Supreme. Motown let 1974 come and go to make sure that this grouping would stay together; as it were there was talk of Cindy only being temporary and then Mary started the rumor that Lynda was only hired as a temp Supreme. Not true, Lynda Laurence signed full recording and performing contracts with Motown.

As I said in a previous post, Motown had to take notice of the rave reviews the group was getting with Scherrie. Mary's notices were also improving. But there was ambivalence about Cindy the entire time of her second tenure.

Mary and Pedro decided to start Supremes, Inc in an effort to insure proper payments to each lady. Motown was obviously not happy with that nor were they happy with Mary securing outside management. I lost count of how many managers the latter two groupings of Supremes went through. Some only lasted a few weeks. Between Motown, Supremes Inc and other outsiders there were tons of interest conflicts.

At one point when Susaye joined and High Energy gave the group a well deserved comeback, Gordy approached Mary to take full control of the group again. This of course would put Pedro out of work. She said no, another bad move. Perhaps with the Motown brass in charge some stability could have been returned to the group. But that also is pretty speculative. As the 70s went on the group Supremes continued to spiral downward.

There were constant arguments between the ladies and Pedro which Mary did not involve herself in. She should have. Cindy was fired for being defiant to Pedro. Scherrie Payne is a sweet, non-confrontational and spiritual woman. Eventually, along with Su, she too was answering back. After Mary left Scherrie sued Supremes Inc and received an out of court settlement.

The lawsuits between Mary, Motown and Scherrie were such an embarrassing end to a legendary group. When it was announced that Mary was leaving and getting a solo deal, she came back from the last tour of England to find out that Pedro had NOT secured any such solo deal and Motown was clearly not interested in a solo Mary. Thus the S. American dates and yet a new grouping out on the road with lawsuits raging.

[midnightman]

Jesus Christ, talk about a hot mess and a half! Thanks Bayou!

[sup_fan]

Again, so many what-ifs!!

what are the details of Lynda's exit? did she want to leave, was it the pregnancy or did mary really want her out?

how much of the Jean/Mary tension existed while Cindy was there? did jean and mary start butting heads early on?

i love the jean recordings, for the most part, but i do see that there's a bit of a spark missing in the live performances. And not on every one. but sometimes jean was a little too shy, too awkward, too withdrawn. Of course she's following someone that blazed as brightly as the sun so it's a bit understandable. but i think if she'd been a bit more of a stronger, outgoing personality it might have helped continue the public interest.

Jean was a lead singer. Diana was a lead singer AND mistress of the ceremonies. i'm not sure jean ever really captured the later enough

[sup_fan]

Absolutely not Jobete. Motown never thought Mary Wilson could carry the group. Gordy thought when Jean and Lynda left and Mary married Pedro that he was finished with the Supremes and the Ferrers. He had a rude awakening. Despite Mary's fan constantly trying to build her up, Hollywood thought Mary to be a pretty, sexy lady with no real singing or acting ability. While the other ladies in the group who got married and then pregnant were able to be supported by their husbands, Mary could not. She HAD to work. She even worked while being pregnant three times which is hard to do.

I don't defend Motown easily but as a businessman myself I can look back and see the trepadations Motown had with the Supremes after 1973. The group had become inconsistent with too much turnover of members. For a while in late 1973, Mary Wilson was the only Supreme. Motown let 1974 come and go to make sure that this grouping would stay together; as it were there was talk of Cindy only being temporary and then Mary started the rumor that Lynda was only hired as a temp Supreme. Not true, Lynda Laurence signed full recording and performing contracts with Motown.

As I said in a previous post, Motown had to take notice of the rave reviews the group was getting with Scherrie. Mary's notices were also improving. But there was ambivalence about Cindy the entire time of her second tenure.

Mary and Pedro decided to start Supremes, Inc in an effort to insure proper payments to each lady. Motown was obviously not happy with that nor were they happy with Mary securing outside management. I lost count of how many managers the latter two groupings of Supremes went through. Some only lasted a few weeks. Between Motown, Supremes Inc and other outsiders there were tons of interest conflicts.

At one point when Susaye joined and High Energy gave the group a well deserved comeback, Gordy approached Mary to take full control of the group again. This of course would put Pedro out of work. She said no, another bad move. Perhaps with the Motown brass in charge some stability could have been returned to the group. But that also is pretty speculative. As the 70s went on the group Supremes continued to spiral downward.

There were constant arguments between the ladies and Pedro which Mary did not involve herself in. She should have. Cindy was fired for being defiant to Pedro. Scherrie Payne is a sweet, non-confrontational and spiritual woman. Eventually, along with Su, she too was answering back. After Mary left Scherrie sued Supremes Inc and received an out of court settlement.

The lawsuits between Mary, Motown and Scherrie were such an embarrassing end to a legendary group. When it was announced that Mary was leaving and getting a solo deal, she came back from the last tour of England to find out that Pedro had NOT secured any such solo deal and Motown was clearly not interested in a solo Mary. Thus the S. American dates and yet a new grouping out on the road with lawsuits raging.

amazing!!

i heard much of the problems with Pedro and S&S was that both women were at different points told they could possibly help write and/or produce the Sups. but then those plans never materialized. is that true?

when exactly did mary meet pedro and when did he take over things?

[sup_fan]

Mary and Pedro decided to start Supremes, Inc in an effort to insure proper payments to each lady. Motown was obviously not happy with that nor were they happy with Mary securing outside management. I lost count of how many managers the latter two groupings of Supremes went through. Some only lasted a few weeks. Between Motown, Supremes Inc and other outsiders there were tons of interest conflicts.



i didn't realize that Motown was so against the establishment of Sup Inc. in mary's book she positions it that they were "probably relieved that they didn't have to deal with things" anymore.

Also seems that the manager issue was a problem even during the Jean era. there was the Wayne guy the helped hook them up with Webb and is pictured with MJL during their first photo shoot. but then mary talks about switching to Shelly B again and he was the one that helped arrange the late summer/fall tour with the Temps

[RanRan79]

As for Mary's stage presence, to say she has none is absolutely untrue. She can be very personable on stage, and people who attend her shows get a real treat.

I agree. But beyond being personable, Mary is a student of the Motown way of presenting one's self onstage. The way she walks, the way she stands, the way she plays with the audience...I realize not everyone cares for her voice, just like I realize not everyone cares for Diana's voice, but some of these knocks don't make sense. Mary Wilson had the goods.

[jobeterob]

Sounds like Mary could have used lessons from Otis Williams on how to run a group

I’ve often wondered if the Supremes couldn’t have lasted like the Temptations with different management and leadership

The one big difference is that the Temptations didn’t have one only lead singer that stood out so sharply from the others

[sup_fan]

I agree. But beyond being personable, Mary is a student of the Motown way of presenting one's self onstage. The way she walks, the way she stands, the way she plays with the audience...I realize not everyone cares for her voice, just like I realize not everyone cares for Diana's voice, but some of these knocks don't make sense. Mary Wilson had the goods.

i'd say there were many different "phases" of Mary's stage presence. some i prefer to others

in the DMF era, she comes across as the sweetest of girls and perfect. she looks perfect, she dances the choreography perfect. she'd give a sorts of sexy glances, winks, smiles and wiggles. enchanting

in the DMC era, sometimes she came across as a wonderfully more mature version of her DMF persona. and other times she came across to me as a bit forced. Like the Irving Berlin medley on Sullivan. she's executing the choreography with a bit too much energy. and acting out too many of the words with choreography.

in the 70s, too many times she's coming across too contrived. she's still trying to keep up the Supreme Glamour Girl image too much. talking about shopping and girly things in interviews. And she's getting a bit too carried away with the choreography. like in Love The one You're with - i'm like damn girl! slow down a little. This got even more carried away in the Scherrie era at times. like the Live in Montreau footage. she's trying too hard and dancing too hard. it isn't in every live appearance. but a lot

then later in the MSS era she's too lackadaisical on the choreography. she's sloppy in her execution whereas in the 60s, she was precision personified.

[sup_fan]

Mary is a great entertainer and a strong singer. but i don't know if in the 60s or 70s she really had the presence to be the "mistress of ceremonies", to use a phrase i said regarding Jean too.

[RanRan79]

The single made it into the Billboard Top 40, the first time The Supremes placed there in four years. [[On other charts the single placed significantly lower).

It hit number 25 on the r&b chart.


It gradually got to the point that the ladies were competing with each other on stage rather than trying to emulate a group sound. It was the perverbial every-man-for-himself syndrome.

That's been my critique of the last grouping, and exactly why of all the lineups my least favorite is MSS. A hot mess.

[RanRan79]

Was not aware that Mary had so many deals offered to her. Casablanca, Atlantic, Merv Griffin, Fantasy. These all sound like great deals. Mary wanted a solo career so badly, why, after she left the Official Supremes, did she pass these deals up and continue to tour singing Supremes' songs with the Supremes' name in her billing? [[Mary Wilson & the Supremes, THE SUPREMES' Mary Wilson, Mary Wilson of THE SUPREMES etc.)

And thank you in advance for your replyi

I'm dying over here! This dude expects people to believe that Mary had all these label offers after she left Motown, but it took her some 12 or so years to finally sign with someone? And CEO Records? Who the hell is CEO? I believe Mary had all those offers just like I believe Variety Chenvert is really Florence's daughter born in December 1967 and Tommy Chapman died months before Florence, and Variety was with Diana Ross at a Detroit photo shoot when Flo was taken to the hospital and Diana dropped everything to go and see about her [[per Variety's claims in her new video). Yup, I give them both about the same amount of credibility.

[RanRan79]

Jean was a lead singer. Diana was a lead singer AND mistress of the ceremonies. i'm not sure jean ever really captured the later enough

Great point! To some degree, lead singers come a dime a dozen, but it takes a special person to be able to combine that talent with the ability to captivate even when the music isn't playing. I don't think Jean had it in her. Actually I don't think any of the other Supremes had it in them except maybe Florence, who could use her comedic talents to pull all the songs together.

[sup_fan]

It hit number 25 on the r&b chart.



That's been my critique of the last grouping, and exactly why of all the lineups my least favorite is MSS. A hot mess.

from a studio perspective, MSS was phenomenal. but trying to recreate that live would have been a challenge in any situation. but then you have Mary trying to emerge as a solo star and coming across as distracted from being part of a group. plus the every-woman-for-herself situation. combined with poor song choice for the live performances, inappropriate wardrobes, out of control choreography etc.

[BayouMotownMan]

Again, so many what-ifs!!

what are the details of Lynda's exit? did she want to leave, was it the pregnancy or did mary really want her out?

how much of the Jean/Mary tension existed while Cindy was there? did jean and mary start butting heads early on?

i love the jean recordings, for the most part, but i do see that there's a bit of a spark missing in the live performances. And not on every one. but sometimes jean was a little too shy, too awkward, too withdrawn. Of course she's following someone that blazed as brightly as the sun so it's a bit understandable. but i think if she'd been a bit more of a stronger, outgoing personality it might have helped continue the public interest.

Jean was a lead singer. Diana was a lead singer AND mistress of the ceremonies. i'm not sure jean ever really captured the later enough

I think Jean was difficult from the start. She wasn't prepared for the adulation and the invasion on her privacy. She was uncomfortable being escorted through crowds and was especially unnerved by the group's large gay and drag queen following. Jean is somewhat homophobic. This was her first introduction to these people and it unnerved her.

She got on fine with Mary for a while mostly because she was so new that she kept her mouth shut. When Lynda came on board, Jean was no longer the new girl. She began to speak up, and speak out. As the groups popularity continued to decline markedly she felt Mary was not standing up to Motown enough. Like Florence Ballard had said, Jean could convince Mary to say and do certain things that Mary would agree to, and then Mary would cower when it came time to stand up. Finally in late 72 all three Supremes decided to give Motown a 1 yr ultimatum; either put more promotion and better material on the group or they'd leave for another label. Even if it meant giving up the name. Well the year came and went, and again Mary didn't go through with the agreement.

More than anything Jean, unlike Diana, grew to dislike that she was doing 80% of the work and Mary was making more money than she. This bothered Jean tremendously and through most of 72 and 73 she had pretty much had it with Mary, and then when she met her husband, she'd had it with the group.

Lynda Laurence left on her own, she was not fired or pushed out as many have said. Jean had met Pedro once or twice but had already made her decision to leave before Mary got deeply involved. After the August 1973 dates, Lynda was pregnant and went to Mary's house to talk about her future with The Supremes. Mary was wanting Lynda to share leads with her for the entire act and future recording dates.

Then Lynda met Pedro. When Mary told Lynda that Pedro would be another Berry Gordy and was going to take over the group, Lynda immediately had her attorney negotiate her release from Motown

[sup_fan]

how long were the "new" girls on their probationary period? i've heard that Jean was on salary for 18 months and then switched to royalties? so if we assume she started on Jan 1970, then by June 71 she'd be on royalties. but would the previous records be under the royalty payment or only future? they released Ladder in 70 while she was on salary and it was a huge hit. sold tons. Same with Stoned. but then when jean switched to royalties, did she start gathering royalties on Ladder and Stoned as they continued to sell [[even if only somewhat) or did she only earn royalties on the subsequent releases AFTER she switched from being salaried?

[BayouMotownMan]

If Jean Terrell got any royalties for record sales it was extremely limited. By the time she was entitled to royalties the groups sales power was greatly diminished. Add to this all the deductions Motown made to the ladies for unreleased recordings and other "expenses." Whatever an artist wanted at Motown, cars, furs, houses, they had a Motown credit card but these items were bought against future royalties. Jean probably earned most of her Supremes monies from personal appearances and tv appearances.

When a major artist like Diana, Tempts, Mary etc left Motown they were shocked to find out how little money they had. In many cases cars, houses, furs were owned by Motown and leased to the artist. Upon leaving they either had to buy these things out or return them.

[sup_fan]

Then Lynda met Pedro. When Mary told Lynda that Pedro would be another Berry Gordy and was going to take over the group, Lynda immediately had her attorney negotiate her release from Motown

but mary and pedro weren't even married until well into 74. and wasn't if after they were married that he became a sort of Road Manager? and then later in the MSC period he took over the full management. at least all this according to Mary's book

[marv2]

but mary and pedro weren't even married until well into 74. and wasn't if after they were married that he became a sort of Road Manager? and then later in the MSC period he took over the full management. at least all this according to Mary's book

What you said is true. What he said is not!

[BayouMotownMan]

What you said is true. What he said is not!

Mary met Pedro in June 1973. By August he was living with her.

But of course Marv knows this.

BTW Marv, I faxed your highly jaded reasons for Lionel Richie leaving the Commodores and your comments on the groups behalf of Lionel to his attorney in July

[BayouMotownMan]

What you said is true. What he said is not!

Also Miss Marv, I was at every show in August 1973 at Magic Mountain and Pedro was there. I met Jean's fiance and Trevor Lawrence as well. Willie was there too.

[BayouMotownMan]

Actually Mary and Pedro had eloped in early 1974 as reported in the Feb 1974 newsletter from Randy Taraborrelli. The big wedding in Vegas later in the year was for the families.

[sup_fan]

i can't believe she got herself so swept away [[Diana Ross pun intended lol) with this guy

Imagine if Jean HAD stayed and mary tried to bring Pedro on as manager and turn the group over to him! lolol Jean would have cut Pedro "too short to shit" [[to quote Tony Turner from All That Glittered lol)

[sup_fan]

Absolutely not Jobete. Motown never thought Mary Wilson could carry the group.

while they probably wouldn't have been hugely successful, don't you think that if Mary asked to take over lead in the Sups after Diana left they would have gone along with it? i think berry and team would have agreed it wouldn't be the wisest decision but had she had the gumption to demand it, i think they would have said "ok - suit yourself"

[BayouMotownMan]

There is no way Berry Gordy or upper management would have let Mary take over leads after Diana left. Had Mary demanded such, she'd have been replaced

[BayouMotownMan]

i can't believe she got herself so swept away [[Diana Ross pun intended lol) with this guy

Imagine if Jean HAD stayed and mary tried to bring Pedro on as manager and turn the group over to him! lolol Jean would have cut Pedro "too short to shit" [[to quote Tony Turner from All That Glittered lol)

I'll tell you another little known fact that Marv2 will try to deny. Mary, Jean and Lynda were performing at a hotel in San Juan in mid 1973. I forget the name of the hotel, Eden Roc maybe? Anyway, they were in the lobby of the hotel when Pedro walked by and Mary and Lynda blew their Bad Weather whistles at him. He chatted with them and said he'd be at their show that night.

He in fact came to both shows. After the shows when the ladies retired to their rooms, Pedro from the lobby called...Lynda! He invited her to join him for a drink, she declined saying she was engaged to marry Trevor Lawrence.

Then he called Mary.

I heard that story from Miss Lynda herself.

[TheMotownManiac]

I firmly believe that Motown screwed up royally where Mary was concerned. Her vocals and work with the Supremes, particularly on their 1975 self-titled album,"High Energy," and "Mary, Scherrie, and Susaye," were especially good. Had Motown made her first album ballads and pretty songs, such as the ones on those last Supremes LP's, she could have certainly had a chance at solo recording success. She could have found an audience in the quiet storm arena, but Motown screwed her over royally by putting out that less than stellar disco album. Not only was 80% of the material on that album weak, but it also failed to showcase Mary's voice in a positive light. Then, when she was on the verge of recording music more suited to her and the market, Motown tossed her aside. Shame on Motown!

As for Mary's stage presence, to say she has none is absolutely untrue. She can be very personable on stage, and people who attend her shows get a real treat. Sometimes when she sings the Supremes' hits, they come across as a little sloppy, but people still love them and love her. When she sings ballads and songs better suited to her voice, she can actually soar. I have seen her in concert many times, and I am always amazed by the strength of her performance. Awhile back, a friend who had never liked Ms. Wilson's voice went with me to one of the shows, and after we left, he said he was blown away by what he had heard. He didn't expect her voice to be so good, but it was.

Motown blew it as they intentionally screwed Mary over.

Motown didn’t see a potential in Mary - why is that a screw over? Why is Motown obligated to promote a singer they see no future in or forever be a villain in her fans’ eyes? NO ONE in the recording industry wanted to put money and time into Mary - why blame Motown? Why not blame Clive Davis? Or Comlubia? Geez, you act like because you think Mary was bankable that Motown screwed her over for not agreeing with you. Get over yourself for a second and look at the big picture: there was no interest in Mary by any major or secondary label. Ever. That is not a crime. Mary of the 70s was a capable ballad singer with a not-too-popular-voice who led her group The Supremes into looking like rubes on the majority of their last tv Appearances. Capable singers are a dime a dozen - much more was needed to become a star. Mary was pretty and could be stunning, but she acted like a fool on TV too many times to attract a contract. I’m sorry, but I do not believe she turned down any offers to sign.

I wish ash things had gone Mary’s way - but she persevered beautifully in spite of no support. Good for her!

[TheMotownManiac]

while they probably wouldn't have been hugely successful, don't you think that if Mary asked to take over lead in the Sups after Diana left they would have gone along with it? i think berry and team would have agreed it wouldn't be the wisest decision but had she had the gumption to demand it, i think they would have said "ok - suit yourself"

Never. Not in a million years. Motown was into making money - it’d pretty obvious they did not see a dime in the sound of Mary Wilson. That would have been suicide for the group - as it is, her leads on released A-sides were a sales disaster with a charging average just above a blip on the hot 100.

Not in TEN million years.

[marv2]

i can't believe she got herself so swept away [[Diana Ross pun intended lol) with this guy

Imagine if Jean HAD stayed and mary tried to bring Pedro on as manager and turn the group over to him! lolol Jean would have cut Pedro "too short to shit" [[to quote Tony Turner from All That Glittered lol)

Uhhhh, I don't think so. Mr. Ferrer was not a punk! LOL!

[BayouMotownMan]

No Marv of course not. No punk Pedro. He was a wife beater. Remember nearly severing his wife's ear? Stripping her clothes off and throwing her into a cold night? And you defend this animal?

[marybrewster]

i'd say there were many different "phases" of Mary's stage presence. some i prefer to others

in the DMF era, she comes across as the sweetest of girls and perfect. she looks perfect, she dances the choreography perfect. she'd give a sorts of sexy glances, winks, smiles and wiggles. enchanting

in the DMC era, sometimes she came across as a wonderfully more mature version of her DMF persona. and other times she came across to me as a bit forced. Like the Irving Berlin medley on Sullivan. she's executing the choreography with a bit too much energy. and acting out too many of the words with choreography.

in the 70s, too many times she's coming across too contrived. she's still trying to keep up the Supreme Glamour Girl image too much. talking about shopping and girly things in interviews. And she's getting a bit too carried away with the choreography. like in Love The one You're with - i'm like damn girl! slow down a little. This got even more carried away in the Scherrie era at times. like the Live in Montreau footage. she's trying too hard and dancing too hard. it isn't in every live appearance. but a lot

then later in the MSS era she's too lackadaisical on the choreography. she's sloppy in her execution whereas in the 60s, she was precision personified.

There's a clip I've seen of MSS with Udo [[?); Mary is going for "sexy", laying across the top of a piano and sadly, it's anything but.

[milven]

There's a clip I've seen of MSS with Udo [[?); Mary is going for "sexy", laying across the top of a piano and sadly, it's anything but.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nFTf9r910io

[blackguy69]

This thread has run its course and it seems we’re back to normal around here

[TheMotownManiac]

I think MSS sound great on that clip and Susaye is fab on her solo. I’m ok with Mary on the piano, it wasn’t sexy but I didn’t think it was embarrassing. Actually, this is one of the best MSS appearance on TV I’ve seen.

[TheMotownManiac]

Uhhhh, I don't think so. Mr. Ferrer was not a punk! LOL!

Men who beat their wives - especially when pregnant, are nothing BUT punks! Whether or not he had reason to question her fidelity is conjecture, but, even if he did, beating a woman is base. He should just have left her if she was cheating. And I don’t think she was anyway, but if so, it was just at the beginning of Mary and Pedro.

[Ollie9]

I think MSS sound great on that clip and Susaye is fab on her solo. I’m ok with Mary on the piano, it wasn’t sexy but I didn’t think it was embarrassing. Actually, this is one of the best MSS appearance on TV I’ve seen.

I agree, this is definitely the best performance i have seen of MSS on tv. Susaye Greene is a far more versatile singer then the lovely CB, and its so nice to seem in laid back mode. There really was so much potential on show here.
They sounded sophisticated singing together on recordings. That image was diluted in live performances by their lousy, frantic choreography. Even when singing ballads it was overcooked. I so wish they had gone for a more sophisticated and serene presentation. With that presentation in mind Songs such as "Sweet Dream Machine" and "We Should Be Closer Together" could have done well if released as singles. Quality songs and production that still sounds fresh today.

[mistercarter2u]

I stand by what I said. I believe Mary did deserve a chance at Motown, and while Motown did give her that chance by releasing the "Mary Wilson" album, they did not truly get behind her or give her a real opportunity to prove herself as an artist. Her album just wasn't good, and it wasn't really the direction in which she had hoped to go, yet it was put out anyway. A bad disco album that was released after disco had peaked! Just a crappy decision all around. And yes, Motown was involved in that decision. I wonder if, due to the bad blood that existed between Mary and the company, they tossed the album out with full awareness that it would tank.

You tell me to get over myself. What a nasty remark. We do have a right to respectfully disagree on this forum.


Motown didn’t see a potential in Mary - why is that a screw over? Why is Motown obligated to promote a singer they see no future in or forever be a villain in her fans’ eyes? NO ONE in the recording industry wanted to put money and time into Mary - why blame Motown? Why not blame Clive Davis? Or Comlubia? Geez, you act like because you think Mary was bankable that Motown screwed her over for not agreeing with you. Get over yourself for a second and look at the big picture: there was no interest in Mary by any major or secondary label. Ever. That is not a crime. Mary of the 70s was a capable ballad singer with a not-too-popular-voice who led her group The Supremes into looking like rubes on the majority of their last tv Appearances. Capable singers are a dime a dozen - much more was needed to become a star. Mary was pretty and could be stunning, but she acted like a fool on TV too many times to attract a contract. I’m sorry, but I do not believe she turned down any offers to sign.

I wish ash things had gone Mary’s way - but she persevered beautifully in spite of no support. Good for her!

[sup_fan]

I'll tell you another little known fact that Marv2 will try to deny. Mary, Jean and Lynda were performing at a hotel in San Juan in mid 1973. I forget the name of the hotel, Eden Roc maybe? Anyway, they were in the lobby of the hotel when Pedro walked by and Mary and Lynda blew their Bad Weather whistles at him. He chatted with them and said he'd be at their show that night.

He in fact came to both shows. After the shows when the ladies retired to their rooms, Pedro from the lobby called...Lynda! He invited her to join him for a drink, she declined saying she was engaged to marry Trevor Lawrence.

Then he called Mary.

I heard that story from Miss Lynda herself.

hahaha talk about a twist of fate!! what if Miss Lynda had been tempted to be Pedro's sugar momma! hahah

[sup_fan]

There's a clip I've seen of MSS with Udo [[?); Mary is going for "sexy", laying across the top of a piano and sadly, it's anything but.

hahaha i know - that's a fav [[overall) clip of mine. love Susaye's brief solo. and scherrie is stunning. then you have mary lounging on the piano top like some cheshire cat and when she starts her brief solo line she sounds like Gravel Gert!

funny how posture helps with vocal performance

[sup_fan]

I agree, this is definitely the best performance i have seen of MSS on tv. Susaye Greene is a far more versatile singer then the lovely CB, and its so nice to seem in laid back mode. There really was so much potential on show here.
They sounded sophisticated singing together on recordings. That image was diluted in live performances by their lousy, frantic choreography. Even when singing ballads it was overcooked. I so wish they had gone for a more sophisticated and serene presentation. With that presentation in mind Songs such as "Sweet Dream Machine" and "We Should Be Closer Together" could have done well if released as singles. Quality songs and production that still sounds fresh today.

i agree!! shame that Scherrie also didn't really have a chance to sing any ballads. Sweet Dream is about the closest we get from her and it's an amazing song! I think mary did very fine work on many of the ballads but would love have also heard scherrie's interpretations.

Sweet Dream should have been incorporated into the act.

[sup_fan]

I know we've gotten a bit off course in this thread - lolol surprise surprise!

many people have mentioned how the MSS lineup was great on record but weak live. the act was tired, too many cabaret and show tunes, wrong wardrobe, etc

So let's pretend it's late 1976/77 - what would you have them do live?

Let yourself go - fun exciting opener

Disco Supreme medley - Where do i go from here [[scherrie lead), You keep me hanging on [[scherrie lead), Early Morning love [[mary lead), Love is like an itching in my heart [[susaye lead), You keep me moving on [[scherrie lead)

High Energy [[susaye lead)

Love medley - Love will keep us together, Love Hangover, Love Train

Supremes Hits Medley - start with a call out to Sister Sup Diana and how they love her new hit Love Hangover which they just sang. do the 15 year anniversary toast, Then go into medley of Stop, You Can't Hurry Love, Reflections, Nathan Jones, Up the Ladder to the Roof

Stoned Love

Mary Solo - maybe do the medley of her two ballads from High Energy. or maybe You Are the Heart of me

You're what's missing in my life

intermission

Sweet Dream Machine

Dream genie segment

mary solo - A song for you.

Body heat

he's my man

You're My Driving Wheel - intro of band

I'm gonna let my heart do the walking

[marv2]

i agree!! shame that Scherrie also didn't really have a chance to sing any ballads. Sweet Dream is about the closest we get from her and it's an amazing song! I think mary did very fine work on many of the ballads but would love have also heard scherrie's interpretations.

Sweet Dream should have been incorporated into the act.
Have you ever heard Scherrie Payne sing "My World Is Empty Without You" with the Supreme? She turned it into a ballad and it worked very nicely. She sang it that way all during her time as a member of the Supremes. She still sings it that way today in her shows with Susaye and Joyce.

[BayouMotownMan]

Actually Jean Terrell did it as a ballad first. It's on the Live in Japan lp. Scherrie used the same arrangement and gave it a more blues feel. LOL I remember some of us fans were a little thunderstruck when Scherrie ad-libbed "I want your warm and tender body next to mine in the midnight hours baby baby." No Supreme had ever sang that kind line before.

[TheMotownManiac]

I stand by what I said. I believe Mary did deserve a chance at Motown, and while Motown did give her that chance by releasing the "Mary Wilson" album, they did not truly get behind her or give her a real opportunity to prove herself as an artist. Her album just wasn't good, and it wasn't really the direction in which she had hoped to go, yet it was put out anyway. A bad disco album that was released after disco had peaked! Just a crappy decision all around. And yes, Motown was involved in that decision. I wonder if, due to the bad blood that existed between Mary and the company, they tossed the album out with full awareness that it would tank.

You tell me to get over myself. What a nasty remark. We do have a right to respectfully disagree on this forum.

I apologize - I didn’t mean to infer your opinion is not respected or as valid as any.

“Get over yourself” was in response to you suggesting Mary was screwed over by Motown. My point being that just because YOU think Mary deserved whatever you wanted her to get, obviously Motown didn’t - nor did they owe her that, so I suggest she was not screwed over. I suggest Mary did not, in the 70s, have the chops for a successful solo career and got the attention her record company youths she deserved. Record companies are there only to make money - if someone with a nickel saw a dime in Mary, they’d go for it. If Motown didn’t give Mary the support that some felt she deserved, it was because they didn’t see a return in it. No label did. Perhaps they were wrong. Perhaps Mary may have out sold Whitney and Tina and Diana and Janet,

[jobeterob]

No record company saw much - a background voice sometimes behind Diana Ross; a voice that wasn’t distinctive and someone who wasn’t up to working hard

No takers

[RanRan79]

Mary would've gotten a record deal if she had gone after one. She didn't. She wasn't a go getter, and one has to wonder if Mary would've ever found success in the music business at all if it hadn't been for Flo's and Diana's determination to make it. [[Not that Mary wasn't an integral part of their success or an important factor in the things that set the Supremes apart from the competition...my point more so being that it was Flo and Diana who drove the Primettes/Supremes car in the early days. I don't see Mary pushing the group forward.) It's been a long time since I sat down and read Mary's second book, but I don't recall anything written where she talks about how she was constantly knocking on doors and chasing deals. She talks about the conversation with the one dude who was interested in her and then died, but does she mention anything else? With her connections in the biz, wouldn't it have been a good idea to make some calls, get some auditions, shop herself around? I don't remember her writing that she ever did that.

Clearly Mary is talented and when I look through random music in my collection and see the names of some of the people who had record deals in the late 70s and throughout the 80s and then read how apparently Mary was so limitedly talented that no one could have ever wanted a thing to do with her voice, I laugh. Maybe I shouldn't laugh. After all, Mary couldn't possibly compete with the multitude of record deal offers that her ex group mates were getting. Remember all those bidding wars on Scherrie and Susaye and Lynda? Yeah, I don't either.:rolleyes:

[BayouMotownMan]

Again, so many what-ifs!!

what are the details of Lynda's exit? did she want to leave, was it the pregnancy or did mary really want her out?

how much of the Jean/Mary tension existed while Cindy was there? did jean and mary start butting heads early on?

i love the jean recordings, for the most part, but i do see that there's a bit of a spark missing in the live performances. And not on every one. but sometimes jean was a little too shy, too awkward, too withdrawn. Of course she's following someone that blazed as brightly as the sun so it's a bit understandable. but i think if she'd been a bit more of a stronger, outgoing personality it might have helped continue the public interest.

Jean was a lead singer. Diana was a lead singer AND mistress of the ceremonies. i'm not sure jean ever really captured the later enough

Lynda's exit was quite simple. It was HER decision. Marv has perpetuated the myth that Lynda was fired. I have verified through Randy Taraborrelli and Lynda herself that she asked to be released. Lynda was pregnant. Jean had left and Mary wanted Lynda to take on most of Jean's lead parts. Lynda is very business oriented like Jean and knew that Jean was unhappy doing most of the work and being compensated less than Mary. So she said if she had to work pregnant she wanted more compensation. Then she met Pedro. That was the deal breaker. She wanted out. It was perfectly clear to all parties concerned that Motown had lost all interest in the group. Their concentration was on Ross, Wonder, Gaye, Tempts and J5. All others had to wait their turns so to speak. The Supremes were now a traveling oldies act.

Mary Wilson has said publically that working with Jean was tough. Worse than Ross in fact. The glamour image wore off with Jean quickly. Black women were asserting their rights and the afros and jeans were the funky look of the day. Like Flo, Jean felt the heavy gowns and pancake makeup was fake. Cindy was able to communicate with Jean better than Mary and Cindy became the peace maker. Fans quickly took a disliking to Jean as she would often time refuse to come out of her dressing room and sign their lps after a show. Jean felt she had done her job on stage, was tired after performing and just wanted to go home. She didn't understand that being a Supreme was a 24 hr job. When Lynda came on, problems between Jean and Mary intensified. Jean felt Mary was a puppet and would not stand up to Motown management. Jean may have been the first and only Supreme to actually read her royalty statements. She strongly disliked what she saw. In the summer of 1972 Jean, Mary and Lynda decided to give Motown another year to get their act together or they'd leave. When the year came and went and things only got worse, Mary decided to stay with Motown. Motown was all Mary knew, they were like family to her. Jean was extremely bitter about the failure of the Jimmy Webb and Stevie Wonder recordings and her attitude became unbearable. Finally when the group got savage reviews in Frisco in early 1973, their wig collection bombed, Jean had had it. Mary begged Jean not to leave. Jean had also met her husband and wanted to start a family. A strong Jehovah Witness, Jean was not the type of woman to neglect her babies for her career. Thus we only saw Jean sporadically in the years after leaving the Supremes.

Whereas most former members of the group embrace their legacy with The Supremes, Jean Terrell has gone on record many times bitter and disinterested in carrying on the legacy. When her marriage ended Scherrie approached her with the idea of the FLOs. Jean probably wanted the money moreso than any celebration of her Supreme years and even with Scherrie and Lynda began complaining that she was not being properly compensated. In 1992 she suddenly quit. Then after the millenium her manager talked her into a DVD biography where for the first time she talked about the Supremes in depth, though it was a slightly jaded view. When that didn't sell Jean washed her hands of show biz. She has steadfastly refused to participate in any of the CD compilations except the 70s Anthology.

[Boogiedown]

Did not realize Jean put out a "tell-all" DVD about being a Supreme.
Looked it up and was surprised by the indifference at this site at the time of its release.

https://soulfuldetroit.com/archives/6593/11214.html?1095779048

Maybe there were other threads showing more interest.

[lakeside]

I was boynextddoor back then. This was my review...and I'm sticking to it.
Basically Jean sitting in front of an aquarium prattling on about her stint with her brother and then with the Supremes. NO NEW information here. I'd heard it all before. Susaye and Scherrie were interviewed in front of a very badly lit home camera. They said NOTHING NEW, either. Scherrie should sue the way she looked! Yikes! I love all The Supremes and their music, but, this was much ado about nothing. There are 3 clips of Jean singing solo. "Feeling Good" was the best of the 3. There was also a short clip of Jeans Beauty Salon and some actor [[unknown to me) sitting there saying what good hair cuts he got there. I say, save your money and put it towards a new CD if Jean puts one out. The most interesting thing was watching the fish in the aquarium.

[BayouMotownMan]

Did not realize Jean put out a "tell-all" DVD about being a Supreme.
Looked it up and was surprised by the indifference at this site at the time of its release.

https://soulfuldetroit.com/archives/6593/11214.html?1095779048

Maybe there were other threads showing more interest.

I helped Jean with this DVD. She called me the day it came out and was very sweet and appreciative. I don't think the DVD had adequate distribution. Also, it only ran 47 minutes. Jean left out the change from Cindy to Lynda and didn't speak much on her solo lp or the FLOs. Some consider it amateurish but to me that gave it a charm.

[jobeterob]

Perhaps jean just really doesn’t care that much and doesn’t fuss and read a lot into things - things that were nothing other than vague happenings in daily life that some fans blow up into major events

[Boogiedown]

I helped Jean with this DVD. She called me the day it came out and was very sweet and appreciative. I don't think the DVD had adequate distribution. Also, it only ran 47 minutes. Jean left out the change from Cindy to Lynda and didn't speak much on her solo lp or the FLOs. Some consider it amateurish but to me that gave it a charm.
Nice!!

And how did one market such a thing? Maybe Jean timed it at 47 minutes hoping it'd get picked up as an hour tv special.

[Boogiedown]

I was boynextddoor back then. This was my review...and I'm sticking to it.
Basically Jean sitting in front of an aquarium prattling on about her stint with her brother and then with the Supremes. NO NEW information here. I'd heard it all before. Susaye and Scherrie were interviewed in front of a very badly lit home camera. They said NOTHING NEW, either. Scherrie should sue the way she looked! Yikes! I love all The Supremes and their music, but, this was much ado about nothing. There are 3 clips of Jean singing solo. "Feeling Good" was the best of the 3. There was also a short clip of Jeans Beauty Salon and some actor [[unknown to me) sitting there saying what good hair cuts he got there. I say, save your money and put it towards a new CD if Jean puts one out. The most interesting thing was watching the fish in the aquarium.

And a valid review it is at that ! Maybe you were the only one here who bought lt judging by the input.

[Boogiedown]

Perhaps jean just really doesn’t care that much and doesn’t fuss and read a lot into things - things that were nothing other than vague happenings in daily life that some fans blow up into major events

I get what you're saying , compared to the endless analysis of every single Supreme moment that gets reimagined here.
Still Jean made the DVD for some reason. She must've wanted to go on record about certain things from her perspective.

[marv2]

I was boynextddoor back then. This was my review...and I'm sticking to it.
Basically Jean sitting in front of an aquarium prattling on about her stint with her brother and then with the Supremes. NO NEW information here. I'd heard it all before. Susaye and Scherrie were interviewed in front of a very badly lit home camera. They said NOTHING NEW, either. Scherrie should sue the way she looked! Yikes! I love all The Supremes and their music, but, this was much ado about nothing. There are 3 clips of Jean singing solo. "Feeling Good" was the best of the 3. There was also a short clip of Jeans Beauty Salon and some actor [[unknown to me) sitting there saying what good hair cuts he got there. I say, save your money and put it towards a new CD if Jean puts one out. The most interesting thing was watching the fish in the aquarium.

The actor was Greg Morris Jr. I thought it was a nice, interesting DVD.

[sup_fan]

Finally in late 72 all three Supremes decided to give Motown a 1 yr ultimatum; either put more promotion and better material on the group or they'd leave for another label. Even if it meant giving up the name. Well the year came and went, and again Mary didn't go through with the agreement.

interesting that Lynda was already ready to jump ship from motown, having only been in the group 6 months or so. Wonder if the lineup had been MJC if the decision to leave would have even been approached. not that i'm saying Lynda was responsible for the idea

[sup_fan]

Finally when the group got savage reviews in Frisco in early 1973, their wig collection bombed, Jean had had it. Mary begged Jean not to leave.

what went wrong in San Fran? I'm assuming they were doing a similar show to what they did on the Live In Japan lp. while not a mesmerizing show, hard to see what would have warranted scathing reviews.

Also i thought the wig line failed because of the departure of Jean and Lynda. that they'd only just started to promote the products in spring [[as they very briefly mentioned it on the Mike Douglas show) but that it never took off because of the problems with the group

[johnny_raven]

14564

and then 3 days later ...

14565

[BayouMotownMan]

what went wrong in San Fran? I'm assuming they were doing a similar show to what they did on the Live In Japan lp. while not a mesmerizing show, hard to see what would have warranted scathing reviews.
Also i thought the wig line failed because of the departure of Jean and Lynda. that they'd only just started to promote the products in spring [[as they very briefly mentioned it on the Mike Douglas show) but that it never took off because of the problems with the group

The group was appearing at the Fairmont where they usually had good audiences. The reviews were unanimously bad. Jean was criticized for not being aggressive and the group as a whole was said not to have a "black" sound as one writer put it. This hit Jean hard. She had been griping for months about all the show tunes and Diana Ross hits she had to sing. Mary was criticized for being "giggly" and not concentrating on harmonies. Of course comparisons were made to Diana Ross which always unnerved Jean.

The ladies were so upset by this that they called a press conference. Mary writes about this in her book. Mary spoke first saying she is an entertainer first and a black woman second. Jean did not feel that way and when she took the microphone it was purely about race. Before this gig was up Jean was so upset that she told Mary she was quitting. Lynda said very little to the media.

The wig line again came at a bad time. The group was cold and afros were the style then. Wearing naturals was the statement of African-Americans. The wigs sold poorly and were yanked pretty fast. In fact, Mary started wearing her own hair around this time.

This was indeed a tough time for the fans. We all loved Jean and wanted her to stay. She waited a month or so to see if Bad Weather was going to take off [[Motown released it twice) and then called Gordy to say she wanted to be released. He of course agreed.

[milven]

I did not know that it was released twice. Was it released twice during the same year or later? The only release that I am familiar with is M 1225.

I don't remember it being a huge hit, but not long after its release, club dee-jays were buying double copies of it [[12" Singles did not yet exist) and it became one of the first hits of the disco era.

[BayouMotownMan]

It was issued in March 1973 and again in May 1973 with the background vocals brought forward. Motown had planned a third release and then Jean dropped the bombshell that she was finished. Both releases had the same cat no.

[TheMotownManiac]

It was released only once, but after it failed to chart, Mary spoke to Diana about promotion and a few weeks later, it charted, briefly, but was simply not radio friendly due to Jean’s annoying vocal at the time. Today, it sounds fine but back then, to most people, it made ears bleed. Remember, MD’s job is to keep people from changing stations. Bad Weather was a button pusher if there ever was one. Almost NO amount of promotion can get a song that an MD really hates onto his/her playlist - ratings are their job and it was extremely competitive in the early 70s with expanding playlist boundaries and niche markets. My first listen to Bad Weather sounded like the worst likely Motown record ever to get charted. Some people here liked it, but it was still radio dumpster material.

[TheMotownManiac]

It was issued in March 1973 and again in May 1973 with the background vocals brought forward. Motown had planned a third release and then Jean dropped the bombshell that she was finished. Both releases had the same cat no.
I never heard of a different promo mix - is it on YouTube?

[midnightman]

14564

and then 3 days later ...

14565

Can't read that.

[midnightman]

Needless to say, 1973 was a TERRIBLE year for the Supremes and the year where things started to come to an end for them.

[BayouMotownMan]

It was issued in March 1973 and again in May 1973 with the background vocals brought forward. Motown had planned a third release and then Jean dropped the bombshell that she was finished. Both releases had the same cat no.

[BayouMotownMan]

Johnny I sent you a private message

[BayouMotownMan]

I was totally disappointed in BW, it didn't even sound like Jean. In concert she killed it. The vocal she has on Soul Train was da bomb.

[TheMotownManiac]

I couldn’t agree more. It rocked live, but the single was horrifying. I was surprised to like it live and, in the 90s when I first heard Mary do it, she rocked it as well.

[sup_fan]

it took me a while to warm up to BW. now i think it's fun and funky. but i still question if it was the right song for the girls. IMO there's limited to no melody on it. jean always "souled" things up when singing live but the recorded versions usually contained a simpler, more straight-forward lead recording. trying whistling BW - nearly impossible. the melody line [[what there is) is all over the place and jumps all around.

also i don't think it's a "group" sound. Stevie was used to producing a lead [[usually himself) and then backing vocals. I think the record could have been more exciting had L and M had more to do other than ooooo. true lynda is pretty exciting on the ending but that's about it.

[BayouMotownMan]

Actually Sup Fan, Stevie wrote the track with Lynda in mind as lead singer. Motown nixed this.

[milven]

Actually Sup Fan, Stevie wrote the track with Lynda in mind as lead singer. Motown nixed this.

And also co-written with Lynda's brother, Ira Tucker Jr.

[midnightman]

Bad Weather sounds like a track Syreeta would've done.

[BayouMotownMan]

Bad Weather sounds like a track Syreeta would've done.

I think Stevie should have done it on himself or maybe the Temptations. Maria Muldaur I think did a few years later and it still did nothing for me

[BayouMotownMan]

I'm sorry, it was Melissa Manchester

[midnightman]

Hmm, if it didn't work on the Supremes or Melissa, doubt it would work on anything else. Stevie basically gave them a "bad" track, which is only "good" when discussing Stevie Wonder's music. Like I love the track itself but yeah some other Motown male act could've probably done it justice though I somehow doubt it?

[lucky2012]

Hmm, if it didn't work on the Supremes or Melissa, doubt it would work on anything else. Stevie basically gave them a "bad" track, which is only "good" when discussing Stevie Wonder's music. Like I love the track itself but yeah some other Motown male act could've probably done it justice though I somehow doubt it?
I've loved Stevie Wonder as a 60's Motown Star and as a 70's Mega Star.
I know he's produced for Syreeta, Spinners, Roberta Flack & Donny Hathaway and written so many classic songs recorded by so many great recording artists [[Aretha, Barbra, Chaka, Rufus, Michael Jackson). So it's strange that I am underwhelmed by Bad Weather and The Force Behind The Power. Just unfortunate happenstance?

[Ollie9]

I really like both "Bad Weather" and "Force Behind The Power". "Force" charted quite well here in the UK.
This is such an interesting thread as regards group politics and what was was going on behind the scenes at the time. There is so much stuff i never knew about.
BayouMotownMan, have you ever thought of writing a book?.

[RanRan79]

I really like both "Bad Weather" and "Force Behind The Power".

I like both too, although I don't like "Bad Weather" as much as I used to, and I like "Force" far better than I used to. As a kid I hated "Force", but as an adult I dig it. I especially love when she did it on Arsenio. Still, looking back, I don't think "Force" should've been a single.

[midnightman]

I've loved Stevie Wonder as a 60's Motown Star and as a 70's Mega Star.
I know he's produced for Syreeta, Spinners, Roberta Flack & Donny Hathaway and written so many classic songs recorded by so many great recording artists [[Aretha, Barbra, Chaka, Rufus, Michael Jackson). So it's strange that I am underwhelmed by Bad Weather and The Force Behind The Power. Just unfortunate happenstance?

I mean they're good tracks and I personally think Diana did a great job with Force. But I wonder if BW went to Lynda, it would've been a better song.

[BayouMotownMan]

I've assisted several writers on books, I'm trying to get Peter Benjaminson to do a book on all versions of Supremes. I'd help with that, but no I won't do any books

[PeaceNHarmony]

She may have gotten a second album which also would have bombed.

[BayouMotownMan]

Are you referring to Mary, PeaceN? Trust me, Motown never intended for there to be a second lp. Mary thought so as well that is why she started recording with Gus Dudgeon and charging these sessions to Motown. When Motown found out, she was dropped.

Mary's only solo lp is known as a contract breaker. Mary had a strong case against Motown. Motown starved her and Pedro out with endless legal maneuvers until Mary had to hock furs and jewelry and then sell her home in Hancock Park. When they got her where they wanted her, they offered a 5 yr solo contract with yearly options. The Ferrers jumped at it, the lp was issued with little fanfare and the yearly option was enforced. Mary was out.

[lucky2012]

Mary's only solo lp is known as a contract breaker. Mary had a strong case against Motown. Motown starved her and Pedro out with endless legal maneuvers until Mary had to hock furs and jewelry and then sell her home in Hancock Park. When they got her where they wanted her, they offered a 5 yr solo contract with yearly options. The Ferrers jumped at it, the lp was issued with little fanfare and the yearly option was enforced. Mary was out.
I remember a huge painting of Mary Wilson's solo album prominently displayed at Tower Records on Sunset Blvd. in the summer of 1979. Was Motown not involved in that promotion, or was it purely Tower Records? It was a gorgeous display and album cover and surely must have caught attention on the Sunset Strip. Of course, I went in and bought it because it was Mary Wilson, years before all the drama.

[BayouMotownMan]

Motown paid for that. As I recall Mary had an lp signing at this location so the record company had to support her. As I understand it was only up for a few days

[midnightman]

Oh. No wonder she left after the first solo album!

[Thornton]

I mean they're good tracks and I personally think Diana did a great job with Force. But I wonder if BW went to Lynda, it would've been a better song.

Lynda would have slayed "Bad Weather." Just listen to her wail on the background vocals. It could have also been a potential transition if Jean just wanted out, and Lynda was moved into the lead spot. We do know Mary, Cindy, and Lynda sounded great together.

Another thought about Lynda: they could have tied in her history with Wonderlove by having her sing "Signed, Sealed, Delivered" instead of "You're Nobody 'Til Somebody Loves You." To my mind Lynda was the most undervalued member of The Supremes.

[RanRan79]

Lynda would have slayed "Bad Weather." Just listen to her wail on the background vocals. It could have also been a potential transition if Jean just wanted out, and Lynda was moved into the lead spot. We do know Mary, Cindy, and Lynda sounded great together.

Another thought about Lynda: they could have tied in her history with Wonderlove by having her sing "Signed, Sealed, Delivered" instead of "You're Nobody 'Til Somebody Loves You." To my mind Lynda was the most undervalued member of The Supremes.

Lynda on "Bad Weather" is a great suggestion. And I agree, she was definitely undervalued and under utilized.

[PeaceNHarmony]

'But cha' are in the chair Blanche. 'Ya ARE in the chair!'

[sup_fan]

Lynda would have slayed "Bad Weather." Just listen to her wail on the background vocals. It could have also been a potential transition if Jean just wanted out, and Lynda was moved into the lead spot. We do know Mary, Cindy, and Lynda sounded great together.

Another thought about Lynda: they could have tied in her history with Wonderlove by having her sing "Signed, Sealed, Delivered" instead of "You're Nobody 'Til Somebody Loves You." To my mind Lynda was the most undervalued member of The Supremes.

i think they should have done more to promote their "famous" producers in their shows. Smokey, Jimmy Webb and Stevie. They should have acknowledged their working with these guys in their stage patter and dialog. Also they could have done a quick medley of the producers hits and maybe added in an album track or two.

by the time the girls were working with even Smokey, their recording careers had declined. anything that could have helped draw attention and publicity should have been taken advantage of

[lakeside]

'But cha' are in the chair Blanche. 'Ya ARE in the chair!'

"It's NOT ME who needs the doctor, Blanche!"

[RanRan79]

i think they should have done more to promote their "famous" producers in their shows. Smokey, Jimmy Webb and Stevie. They should have acknowledged their working with these guys in their stage patter and dialog. Also they could have done a quick medley of the producers hits and maybe added in an album track or two.

by the time the girls were working with even Smokey, their recording careers had declined. anything that could have helped draw attention and publicity should have been taken advantage of

Agreed. And doing album tracks would've also helped album sales. This was the age of the album. The industry no longer hinged on hit singles and an album full of filler surrounding the hit to make some extra cash. The fact that the girls were still doing some of the same showtunes instead of more stuff from whatever recent album they had at the time, surely didn't help album sales or public interest.

[sup_fan]

i completely agree. their own music was sensational - why always disregard it and perform other people's stuff?? that has always puzzled me

When they released FJ, it had been about a year since the Smokey special. but they easily could have taken the medley all the stars sang on there and done something with it. I actually really like the FJ album. the cover photo was fresh and fun, the music was great. light but great.

I always thought they should tour and be promoting the albums. if nothing else that would have helped freshen the show up each year. perhaps this is all a more modern approach but imagine if they actually had a set, so to speak. all white with red accents, labeled Floy Joy. as the opening [[i'd go with YWSSL) song starts, the set could either turn and open up to reveal the girls, in similar white outfits, positioned around the white patio table from the cover.

All of the outfits could be white, except maybe the middle costume change which would be a red or pink outfit. They had the white poncho pantsuits, the white remade chandelier gowns, the white central park outfits, the white FJ cover outfits, the white gowns with long sleeves and all the bugle beads. then the red Ed Sullivan pantsuits, the red gowns worn during the Touch photo shoot.

the concert program should have been marketed along these lines

and then doing a smokey medley. maybe a "Sunshine" medley with Auto Sunshine, Shine On Me, Here Comes the Sunrise :) very 70s! lol