PDA

View Full Version : Flo Mary and Cindy on Background


test

marybrewster
07-31-2018, 12:23 AM
It's been determined that there are several instances where Mary is on background without Flo.

But has it ever been discovered that Flo is on background without Mary?

Or Mary without Cindy?

Or Cindy without Mary?

RanRan79
07-31-2018, 09:15 AM
There have been times I've suspected Flo is without Mary, but I'm never quite sure if that's because Flo is overpowering Mary or Mary is mixed so low she might as well not be present, like Flo on "Where Did Our Love Go". "Manhattan" is often claimed as a Diana/Flo duet. I don't hear Mary on it at all. It's claimed that Mary is on "I'm Gonna Make You Love Me" and "I'll Try Something New". If she is, she's working with the Andantes because the high female voice in the harmony aint Cindy's, not to my ears. I'd be shocked to find that there was ever a session where Cindy is singing but not Mary.

floyjoy678
07-31-2018, 05:03 PM
There's also a few songs that come to my mind that I wonder if it was Flo and the andantes without Mary. I forget where it was quoted but Flo apparently has said she did songs without Mary.

blackguy69
07-31-2018, 05:39 PM
Until proven otherwise, there is nothing proven that Flo recorded with the Andantes but without Mary but there is proof that Mary had recorded without Flo. As far as the singles with the tempts, I’m more to believe that either Marlene or louvian sang with Mary and Cindy. Hey Ran I did post the I’ll try something new backgrounds on here but it was moved to the clubhouse

sup_fan
07-31-2018, 06:27 PM
What becomes of the broken hearted - mary and diana, no flo

i'll skip the flo leads where D and M are doing backups

Manhattan - no mary. frankly i wonder if this was originally a flo lead. then diana also did a lead.

Tears left over - i've heard that cindy isn't on this but mary is and then a few andantes.

I can never recover - scherrie on all parts except that brief line by mary in the bridge. otherwise no m or c.

We should be closer together - Mary and susaye only

midnightman
07-31-2018, 06:36 PM
Wasn't a FOURTH singer on Nathan Jones? I have to be honest, but it was hard to hear Mary or Cindy on there. Not saying that wasn't them on NJ but the way that song was produced, makes me wonder. Bad Weather sounded like it had more background vocalists too (possibly Wonderlove).

reese
07-31-2018, 06:54 PM
Wasn't a FOURTH singer on Nathan Jones? I have to be honest, but it was hard to hear Mary or Cindy on there. Not saying that wasn't them on NJ but the way that song was produced, makes me wonder. Bad Weather sounded like it had more background vocalists too (possibly Wonderlove).

Clydie King has said she is on NATHAN JONES as well.

blackguy69
07-31-2018, 06:58 PM
Wasn't a FOURTH singer on Nathan Jones? I have to be honest, but it was hard to hear Mary or Cindy on there. Not saying that wasn't them on NJ but the way that song was produced, makes me wonder. Bad Weather sounded like it had more background vocalists too (possibly Wonderlove). you can hear Mary on it Especially at the end. Cindy had commented that this was difficult sing to sing because you had to be precise on when you can in. Something to that effect.

midnightman
07-31-2018, 07:20 PM
^ Oh OK I see. I'm guessing that's Mary singing that second "holdin'" after Jean in the second verse? Definitely sounded like Mary but yeah I see how hard it would be to sing a song like this. It was on some slightly psychedelic rock-soul vibe lol

midnightman
07-31-2018, 07:21 PM
Clydie King has said she is on NATHAN JONES as well.

Yeah, I thought so...

TheMotownManiac
07-31-2018, 07:31 PM
I definitely hear Mary on Nathan Jones. I do not believe she is on I’m gonna make you love me I do hear her on I’ll try something new. It’s interesting that in her books she never mentioned the fact that she recorded with other singers than Flo. Mary is not on Manhattan but I’m certain it was never a Flo lead as there was no interest at Motown in Flo’s voice as a lead - for a very good reason. However, with the success of YKMHO mixing Flo under Diana for emphasis, they realized what a potent sound it was and, I’m guessing was the impetus for Mary-less Manhattan.

midnightman
07-31-2018, 07:38 PM
Yeah IGMYLM only featured Diana, the Andantes and the Tempts. Mary and Cindy ain't on it. Mary's a great singer but that's definitely Louvain with the high notes.

vgalindo
07-31-2018, 07:48 PM
I definitely hear Mary on Nathan Jones. I do not believe she is on I’m gonna make you love me I do hear her on I’ll try something new. It’s interesting that in her books she never mentioned the fact that she recorded with other singers than Flo. Mary is not on Manhattan but I’m certain it was never a Flo lead as there was no interest at Motown in Flo’s voice as a lead - for a very good reason. However, with the success of YKMHO mixing Flo under Diana for emphasis, they realized what a potent sound it was and, I’m guessing was the impetus for Mary-less Manhattan.
Weren't we told that on YKMHO that it was actually Diana's voice double layered and not Florence?

blackguy69
07-31-2018, 08:19 PM
What Mary said was she wasn’t on any singles except the ones with the temptations I believe Mary and Cindy are on there with an Andante or 2 singing with them

sup_fan
07-31-2018, 11:39 PM
Weren't we told that on YKMHO that it was actually Diana's voice double layered and not Florence?

Yes we’ve been told that many times. It wa only that troll Tony Turner that ever said that was Flo doubling w Diana

marv2
08-01-2018, 12:25 AM
Yes we’ve been told that many times. It wa only that troll Tony Turner that ever said that was Flo doubling w Diana

It's actually true. The version on the 5 lp set "The Motown Story" in the blue box from 1970 has the version on it with Florence doubling Diana's voice on the lead.

marv2
08-01-2018, 12:29 AM
Here is that version:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jaYvyH8mCpY

RanRan79
08-01-2018, 09:30 AM
Mary is not on Manhattan but I’m certain it was never a Flo lead as there was no interest at Motown in Flo’s voice as a lead - for a very good reason.

Florence recorded leads nearly every year she was at the company. Her Christmas leads were recorded in September 65 and "Manhattan" was recorded in October 66. What would have changed in that year's time that suddenly no one at Motown was interested in Flo as a lead singer, but somehow was interested in Mary, who had leads in 66 and 67? In any case, "Manhattan" is noted as a Florence Ballard lead on DFTMC, which might lend some validity to Sup's theory that both women recorded it as a lead. I'm thinking what might have happened is that it was originally a Flo lead and maybe it was unfinished. Diana was brought in to finish it. The song seems to be highly regarded among many of us fans, yet it didn't make the original album. So my opinion is that it's likely that "Manhattan" was an unfinished Flo lead, Diana's vocals were added to it, and it was ultimately shelved.

RanRan79
08-01-2018, 09:33 AM
Yes we’ve been told that many times. It wa only that troll Tony Turner that ever said that was Flo doubling w Diana

Yeah it's clear that Diana is double tracked with herself. Flo is killing it on the background though.

sup_fan
08-01-2018, 12:03 PM
Here is that version:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jaYvyH8mCpY

flo is not doubling diana on the verses. YKMHO, in the unedited form, does have much more going on in the backgrounds that other songs. the choruses are both bg and lead, and then the backgrounds do more with the choruses during the fade.

sup_fan
08-01-2018, 12:11 PM
Florence recorded leads nearly every year she was at the company. Her Christmas leads were recorded in September 65 and "Manhattan" was recorded in October 66. What would have changed in that year's time that suddenly no one at Motown was interested in Flo as a lead singer, but somehow was interested in Mary, who had leads in 66 and 67? In any case, "Manhattan" is noted as a Florence Ballard lead on DFTMC, which might lend some validity to Sup's theory that both women recorded it as a lead. I'm thinking what might have happened is that it was originally a Flo lead and maybe it was unfinished. Diana was brought in to finish it. The song seems to be highly regarded among many of us fans, yet it didn't make the original album. So my opinion is that it's likely that "Manhattan" was an unfinished Flo lead, Diana's vocals were added to it, and it was ultimately shelved.

agreed - for the specialty projects, M and F were recorded more. whether or not their songs got slated for the final released product is another matter

Sing Country Western & Pop
*shared lead on makes No Difference
*mary lead on Sunset

Bit of Liverpool
*mary shares lead/spotlighted vocals on You Really Got a hold on me
*flo lead on I saw Him Standing there (not released)

Sam Cooke
*flo lead on Good News
*mary has a small spotlighted lead vocal on Chain Gang

There's a Place
*mary lead on our Day will Come
*flo lead on People (but had the record been released, it would not have been included. Per the liner notes from the expanded release Hip O Select set)

Christmas
*flo lead on Silent Night and O Holy Night (neither released)
*Mary lead on The Christmas Song

Sing R&H
*mary lead on Falling in Love
*guessing that Flo recorded the lead on Manhattan as a lead back in fall 66 but then Diana also recorded a lead at some point and they tried doing as duet but eventually cut from set

Disney
*m and f leads on DAvey Crocket

Seems like Broadway To Hollywood would not have included any M or F leads. at least none that we're aware of. Tribute to the Girls was incomplete. story is they recorded a few songs (sincerely, mr sandman, around the world) but would have pulled a few tracks from the cancelled There's a Place to fill out the lp. possibly could have included Our Day and/or People. Motown Around The World never got Sup vocals so who knows. but it was an earlier lp and during a time with M and F were getting leads on the special projects. so possibly.

marv2
08-01-2018, 12:16 PM
flo is not doubling diana on the verses. YKMHO, in the unedited form, does have much more going on in the backgrounds that other songs. the choruses are both bg and lead, and then the backgrounds do more with the choruses during the fade.

This is the version they were talking about however.......... Florence characterized it as "mirroring" what the lead was doing.

marv2
08-01-2018, 12:20 PM
Here's an even better version of it.........


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B2Ia1dq1Kwk

paul_nixon
08-01-2018, 01:38 PM
Florence recorded leads nearly every year she was at the company. Her Christmas leads were recorded in September 65 and "Manhattan" was recorded in October 66. What would have changed in that year's time that suddenly no one at Motown was interested in Flo as a lead singer, but somehow was interested in Mary, who had leads in 66 and 67? In any case, "Manhattan" is noted as a Florence Ballard lead on DFTMC, which might lend some validity to Sup's theory that both women recorded it as a lead. I'm thinking what might have happened is that it was originally a Flo lead and maybe it was unfinished. Diana was brought in to finish it. The song seems to be highly regarded among many of us fans, yet it didn't make the original album. So my opinion is that it's likely that "Manhattan" was an unfinished Flo lead, Diana's vocals were added to it, and it was ultimately shelved.

To me it is clear there are THREE voices in parts on Manhattan - not sure where the theory about it being a Flo lead came from, Flo is deffo in the background but it's very much a Diana vehicle and there's no evidence that there is more than one recording as far as I can see.

sup_fan
08-01-2018, 03:54 PM
To me it is clear there are THREE voices in parts on Manhattan - not sure where the theory about it being a Flo lead came from, Flo is deffo in the background but it's very much a Diana vehicle and there's no evidence that there is more than one recording as far as I can see.

totally agree that there has been nothing formal to identify this as a Flo lead. i assume it's all been just fan speculation. My reason for suggesting it MIGHT have been intended as a Flo lead is 1) she sings the lead for much of the song 2) if this was a duet between F and D, except for the last note, there's no duet harmonization 3) flo really belts and holds the last note as if she was singing the song herself and 4) there are some sloppy cuts on Flo's lead. For the most part, Flo sings the same number of bars and measures along with D but there are a couple where it's an awkward edit/end to flo. I'm wondering if she recorded a full lead and then they edited to make it sound like she was just doubling on intro lines to each verse

sup_fan
08-01-2018, 03:56 PM
another interesting discussion in regards to who's singing the Sup bg's is when were M, F, C, etc overdubbing multiple backgrounds versus Andantes coming in.

On Going Down For 3rd Time, we know which parts are andantes and which are M and F

But what about Up the Ladder, Touch, loving Country? I wonder if Andantes are doubling on the choruses (similar to what they did on Sing CW&P) to Ladder. I think Loving Country sounds like M, J and C doing multiple background lines and then in Touch it's all over. I think some multiple background parts iwth MJC and some added Andantes

floyjoy678
08-01-2018, 03:56 PM
Hmm those are good points that it may have originally been a Flo lead. Mary is definitely on the song, the last note at the end you just barely hear her on the bottom harmony.

blackguy69
08-01-2018, 04:11 PM
If I’m correct Jean is definitely singing in the background when she joined. Loving country I always assumed the andantes are there with the girls. Touch not sure if it’s the andantes or the blackberries with them.

sup_fan
08-01-2018, 04:35 PM
you're right - Jean was singing background on many of the 70s songs. she'd often take the top harmony, cindy middle and mary bottom.

and i'm sort of using Andantes as a general term meaning a backing group other than the Sups. not sure about Blackberries vs Andantes

RanRan79
08-01-2018, 04:35 PM
To me it is clear there are THREE voices in parts on Manhattan - not sure where the theory about it being a Flo lead came from, Flo is deffo in the background but it's very much a Diana vehicle and there's no evidence that there is more than one recording as far as I can see.

I don't hear three voices. I don't hear Mary at all, but it's possible she's there. The theory has been floating around for decades. I believe Randall Wilson mentions it in his book back in the 80s. Whether he was operating off of research or a fan's opinion, I can't say. The more legitimate source, as I mentioned in the post you replied to, is Don't Forget the Motorcity, which has "Manhattan" noted as [Lead-Florence Ballard], which again gives some legitimacy to Sup's theory that Flo recorded it as a lead.

sup_fan
08-01-2018, 06:21 PM
yeah i don't hear 3 voice on Manhattan either. especially at the end. you hear Diana cut off well before Flo. And it's only flo at the very end.

i've mentioned this before and will repeat. if i had to pick a flo lead on R&H, i'd probably have gone with Johnny One Note first. i could hear flo going to CHURCH on that one lol.

Although if she did a full lead on Manhattan, i'd love to hear that too. hear how she maybe played with the lyrics and all. Diana does a perfectly acceptable job on the song but seems to be singing it rather straight. it's all about lyrical wit on this track and that doesn't always really come across.

blackguy69
08-01-2018, 06:30 PM
For the naysayers look at it from this angle, how many on here said Mary and Cindy didn’t record on the funny girl album and come to find out they sang on every track

lakeside
08-01-2018, 07:00 PM
Here's an even better version of it.........


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B2Ia1dq1Kwk
OMG...I nearly pissed myself. Thanks, Marv!

vgalindo
08-01-2018, 07:05 PM
For the naysayers look at it from this angle, how many on here said Mary and Cindy didn’t record on the funny girl album and come to find out they sang on every track
They are not on the original album release. They are on the expanded digital release. This is what I thought we were told. Please correct me if I am wrong.

blackguy69
08-01-2018, 07:21 PM
They are not on the original album release. They are on the expanded digital release. This is what I thought we were told. Please correct me if I am wrong.
all they did was removed the andantes vocals so that it was just Diana Mary and Cindy

RanRan79
08-01-2018, 07:57 PM
yeah i don't hear 3 voice on Manhattan either. especially at the end. you hear Diana cut off well before Flo. And it's only flo at the very end.

i've mentioned this before and will repeat. if i had to pick a flo lead on R&H, i'd probably have gone with Johnny One Note first. i could hear flo going to CHURCH on that one lol.

Although if she did a full lead on Manhattan, i'd love to hear that too. hear how she maybe played with the lyrics and all. Diana does a perfectly acceptable job on the song but seems to be singing it rather straight. it's all about lyrical wit on this track and that doesn't always really come across.

I love that note at the end of "Manhattan". I would have loved to hear Flo lead on "I Could Write a Book". I think she would have tore that up. Mary was perfect for "Falling In Love With Love". She sounded great. I'm glad that the R&H sessions were really a group effort. I'm not a fan of the original album (I love most of the outtakes as opposed to what actually got released in 1967) but the girls really shined on most of the songs from the entire collection.

RanRan79
08-01-2018, 08:01 PM
all they did was removed the andantes vocals so that it was just Diana Mary and Cindy

I thought Mary and Cindy were "wiped" off of some of the tracks and replaced with the Andantes or whomever. It makes sense that the Andantes might have just been added to Mary and Cindy.

RanRan79
08-01-2018, 08:02 PM
I think it's possible that Mary isn't on at least the first version of "Stop In the Name of Love". I know there's this controversy over whether the single version is the Supremes or the Andantes, but I'm positive I hear Florence so I'm thinking this may be an instance where she does the job with one or more Andantes.

vgalindo
08-01-2018, 08:05 PM
all they did was removed the andantes vocals so that it was just Diana Mary and Cindy
Thank you. I stand corrected.

vgalindo
08-01-2018, 08:10 PM
[QUOTE=RanRan79;472852]I thought Mary and Cindy were "wiped" off of some of the tracks and replaced with the Andantes or whomever. It makes sense that the Andantes might have just been added to Mary and Cindy.[QUOTE]
.
This it what I thought too! I thought they said they found these tracks with Mary and Cindy on the background but they were not used and the Andantes or whomever re-recorded the backgrounds and that was what was released. But I could be wrong but that is what I thought I had heard.

blackguy69
08-01-2018, 08:22 PM
I think it's possible that Mary isn't on at least the first version of "Stop In the Name of Love". I know there's this controversy over whether the single version is the Supremes or the Andantes, but I'm positive I hear Florence so I'm thinking this may be an instance where she does the job with one or more Andantes.i think officially Mary Flo and the andantes are on the album version while the andantes are on the 45 version

BayouMotownMan
08-01-2018, 08:39 PM
It does not sound like Mary on Going Down For The Third time (save me, save me)

marv2
08-01-2018, 09:31 PM
OMG...I nearly pissed myself. Thanks, Marv!

I did too when I first saw this. You are most welcome Lakeside! LOL!!!!!

RanRan79
08-02-2018, 09:42 AM
This it what I thought too! I thought they said they found these tracks with Mary and Cindy on the background but they were not used and the Andantes or whomever re-recorded the backgrounds and that was what was released. But I could be wrong but that is what I thought I had heard.

Yeah, that was my understanding of it.

thanxal
08-02-2018, 10:36 AM
They are not on the original album release. They are on the expanded digital release. This is what I thought we were told. Please correct me if I am wrong.

This is from the booklet from the re-issue. I consider this the ultimate authority on the matter. Andy and co. use the actual source material to determine who sang what.


The girls rarely recorded together anymore and sang to pre-recorded tracks. Styne coached the three Supremes, but was dismayed to discover the final version of the album used studio background singers, who were dubbed in two-and-a-half weeks after Mary and Cindy cut their parts.

Then...

'At the sessions I attended it was just Diana ••• then they added the other two girls to the recording, Mary and Cindy. I liked it. It was pure. It was just three voices ••• They were a fine group. Very versatile." - Jules Styne

Further the song credits are clear...

Track cut June 20, 1968, lead and group recorded June 23, 1968, additional background vocals addedJuly8, 1968

To be clear, Mary and Cindy were on the original recordings with additional background vocals added. The digital expanded edition stripped out the additional background singers on tracks 11-20 to give us just Diana, Mary, and Cindy singing.

sup_fan
08-02-2018, 11:35 AM
all they did was removed the andantes vocals so that it was just Diana Mary and Cindy

on the FG expanded release you can listen to the original lp and then the update DMC only version. there are some tracks on that later that are only D, no backups because they could not find any M and C backing track. I believe they used 1 or 2 lines of the Andantes (or whomever recorded the bulk of the bgs) in I'm The Greatest Star because you need the lines to complete the song's story. otherwise it's only DMC.

The backing parts that M and C do don't always necessarily coincide with the actual released versions. so there are probably part with them in there, parts where they're totally covered up or even removed.

sup_fan
08-02-2018, 11:36 AM
It does not sound like Mary on Going Down For The Third time (save me, save me)

on the mono version it's F and M only. for the stereo version (which includes the additional Save Me Save Me along with ooo's during the verses) it's the andantes

imakicola
08-07-2018, 10:26 PM
There have been times I've suspected Flo is without Mary, but I'm never quite sure if that's because Flo is overpowering Mary or Mary is mixed so low she might as well not be present, like Flo on "Where Did Our Love Go". "Manhattan" is often claimed as a Diana/Flo duet. I don't hear Mary on it at all. It's claimed that Mary is on "I'm Gonna Make You Love Me" and "I'll Try Something New". If she is, she's working with the Andantes because the high female voice in the harmony aint Cindy's, not to my ears. I'd be shocked to find that there was ever a session where Cindy is singing but not Mary.

Oddly, in Where Did Our Love Go, I only hear Mary and not Flo. In the German version flo is there. It makes me wonder if flo was severely turned down in the English WDOLG

marybrewster
08-08-2018, 01:09 AM
i think officially Mary Flo and the andantes are on the album version while the andantes are on the 45 version

I thought Mary and the Andantes were on the 45 version, just no Flo?

floyjoy678
08-08-2018, 06:46 AM
The backgrounds on the 45 version and album version are the same. It's most likely Flo, Mary and the Andantes.

reese
08-08-2018, 09:09 AM
Oddly, in Where Did Our Love Go, I only hear Mary and not Flo. In the German version flo is there. It makes me wonder if flo was severely turned down in the English WDOLG

Maybe WDOLG was one of those sessions where they had Flo stand farther back from the mike.

imakicola
09-04-2018, 11:25 PM
Maybe WDOLG was one of those sessions where they had Flo stand farther back from the mike.

Maybe!!!

But compare the German and English versions. The German one you can hear lo is there. In the English one...I CANNOT FIND ANYONE ELSE. It might as well be a duet!

sup_fan
09-05-2018, 12:26 PM
The backgrounds on the 45 version and album version are the same. It's most likely Flo, Mary and the Andantes.

i agree. it has been a while since i listened to any version of Stop (not one of my fav tunes by the girls) but i believe the earlier F and M background vocals didn't have as much singing. i want to say that the Ahhh's from the backgrounds during the verses wasn't on the earlier recording. so it might be that M and F recorded their part first, it was decided more background was needed throughout the recording so the andantes doubled what M and F were already singing and added in new segments. So all the girls are singing Think It Over and some other parts but only Andantes on maybe the ahh's and some other parts

franjoy56
09-08-2018, 04:27 AM
I find three songs with one supreme but i may be wrong . penny pincher. Flo on bkg only. Heaven must have sent u cindy only. Mary only love is in our hearts. Msry snf cindy on 4 trax from love child album trac 2 side 1 trac 2.3 5 side 2. And [ igmulm and itsn

franjoy56
09-08-2018, 12:29 PM
Trac 1 side 2 on love child album also have mary and cindy on bkg sunny boy as well as myb u aint livin till ur lovin trac 4 and ill set u free and keep an eye side 1. Unusual use of the sups on this album but omitted on t big hit love child hmmmm

jim aka jtigre99
09-11-2018, 10:44 AM
I will refer to Diana Ross' book where she states that Mary was the buffer between her sound and Florence's. Without Mary provided her beautiful , rich and warm vocals the Supremes sound would have been much different and give them far less a group sound.When Cindy replaced Florence, Mary's vocals were much stronger because of the difference in Flo's strong first soprano and Cindy's soft second soprano. As for Where Did Our Love Go, it does almost sound like a duet because Mary is quite distinct in the background. This is perhaps due to HDH wanting the sound to be the soft rocking ballad it was and that one member almost wanted to have Mary do the lead. The hypnotic background is quite memorable as is the plaintive lead vocal-the perfect blend to draw any discerning ear to enjoy their first #1 hit. The Andantes may have approximated or sweetened the backgrounds but the combination of Mary and Florence or Cindy was undeniably the special sound which drew in fans of their sound as did the unique leads. I just celebrate the beauty that the wonderful voices of this group provided us.

sup_fan
09-11-2018, 12:16 PM
i agree that all 3 are on WDOLG. while Mary is the more prominent of the background voices, you can tell it's not one person singing. even if you can't hear the distinction between M and F as clearly as you would on other songs. Plus this was early enough that the angst in the group wasn't really there. flo would not have skipped a recording date in early 64 as the group was struggling

I agree with your description of the "hypnotic" backgrounds on Where. that's part of what makes it work. in a few interview Lamont has said they originally had more complex backgrounds but that they scrapped those (sometimes this is attributed to the girls' lack of excitement towards recording the song) and just did the simple "baby baby."

RanRan79
09-12-2018, 07:41 PM
I will refer to Diana Ross' book where she states that Mary was the buffer between her sound and Florence's. Without Mary provided her beautiful , rich and warm vocals the Supremes sound would have been much different and give them far less a group sound.

Absolutely. Mary was definitely an integral part of their sound. Not to mention she's also said to have had the best ear for harmony, and I'm inclined to agree. As great as Florence and Diana were, it was easy to tell on occasion that they would have a little trouble staying in the melody and controlling their voices. I don't believe Mary ever had that problem. (Not counting the Farewell album when Mary was kind'a all over the place, but I think that was on purpose.) Without Mary Wilson the Supremes would've been an entirely different group, sound wise.

sup_fan
09-13-2018, 10:51 AM
i think mary's voice works best in a group environment. her tone really did help meld Flo's and Diana's unique voices. it really was a great blend. when Cindy joined, the two of them really blended

lucky2012
09-13-2018, 11:48 AM
^ I love the Andantes on some Supremes tracks but I wouldn't trade them for Mary & Flo (or Cindy) on most, if not all. The first time I heard Baby Doll, Any Girl In Love and Merry Christmas I was so impressed by the background harmonies (and so proud of Mary & Flo!) It was disappointing when I found out about the Andantes years later. But I've grown up and I'm no longer disillusioned. Motown (Berry Gordy) felt the need for "perfection" in sound, and not just for the Supremes. I'm grateful that the classic Supremes (DMF) are on the great hit singles and most of the album tracks. I love Sing Rodgers & Hart because of DMF and I'm glad the expanded Sing & Perform Funny Girl with Mary & Cindy was released. If only there had been a version of Merry Christmas with just DMF. :(

sup_fan
09-13-2018, 11:59 AM
in the situation of the Supremes, MDF certainly had the goods and could sing wonderfully. if you listen to the handful of unreleased tracks from the CW&P sessions that were included on Motown Unreleased 1963, the recordings are only of the supremes. the additional andantes backgrounds have not been added. and the girls sound great. Same with some of the tracks from There's A Place For Us. I think the studio version of Put On A Happy Place is great - although the brass are a bit crazy and too high in the mix. But the girls and their harmony sounds amazing.

so while its disappointing that they're not doing Xmas, Broadway to Hollywood and others, i agree that it's something you can look past because it really was just about keeping a production schedule.

lucky2012
09-13-2018, 12:21 PM
^ Yes, and I do love CW&P very much for DMF. I'll have to listen to Motown Unreleased 1963. Thanks.

RanRan79
09-13-2018, 03:09 PM
i think mary's voice works best in a group environment. her tone really did help meld Flo's and Diana's unique voices. it really was a great blend. when Cindy joined, the two of them really blended

Mary and Cindy really did have a nice blend. I just think their sound was a step down from what Mary and Flo were capable of. And by "step down" I don't mean that it wasn't as good, just that on record Mary and Flo brought something to the table that was missing with Mary and Cindy. I think Mary and Cindy did wonderful jobs on "I'll Set You Free", "Honey Boy", "Bah, Bah, Bah", even the work on "Funny Girl". But I can't imagine them doing "Come See About Me", "Back In My Arms Again" or "You Keep Me Hangin On" justice. Mary and Cindy's sound was very sweet. Mary and Flo's sound was sweet with an edge. I think that's what I'm trying to say, Mary and Cindy's harmony lacked the edge of Mary and Flo's. And that's why I've never been "upset" by the Andantes replacing Mary and Cindy on some recordings. The Andantes had the ability to bring to the table the same things Mary and Flo brought together.

RanRan79
09-13-2018, 03:18 PM
^ I love the Andantes on some Supremes tracks but I wouldn't trade them for Mary & Flo (or Cindy) on most, if not all. The first time I heard Baby Doll, Any Girl In Love and Merry Christmas I was so impressed by the background harmonies (and so proud of Mary & Flo!) It was disappointing when I found out about the Andantes years later. But I've grown up and I'm no longer disillusioned. Motown (Berry Gordy) felt the need for "perfection" in sound, and not just for the Supremes. I'm grateful that the classic Supremes (DMF) are on the great hit singles and most of the album tracks. I love Sing Rodgers & Hart because of DMF and I'm glad the expanded Sing & Perform Funny Girl with Mary & Cindy was released. If only there had been a version of Merry Christmas with just DMF. :(

I always thought "Baby Doll" was the Andantes, but last year I came to the conclusion that it's part Flo and Mary and part Andantes. (Whatever the case, it's a song I hate so makes no difference...no pun intended...to me.:p)

I agree about Merry Christmas. I once read- can't remember where- that Lamont Dozier said that on some of the Christmas tracks, Flo and Mary were double tracked. I never knew if he was saying the girls were double tracked with themselves or with the Andantes. And if only the Andantes had done backup, why would Lamont say that Flo and Mary were double tracked? For the life of me I still don't understand why Flo and Mary would get Christmas leads but not be brought in to do background. So I figured that any Christmas expanded would include tracks with Flo and Mary and no Andantes, like the Funny Girl previously unreleased cuts, and I was disappointed to find that the expanded edition did not include anything such as this. I am not giving up hope that backgrounds with Flo and Mary exist. After all, it was only after the expanded edition that Mary's Christmas lead was discovered. No reason to think there is no chance that Christmas tracks with Flo and Mary on backup aren't waiting to be found.

sup_fan
09-13-2018, 03:41 PM
yeah the Xmas recording dates would make you think M and F could have been there. The girls performance schedule was

Aug 27 - Sept 9: Michigan State Fair
Sept 10: JFK Stadium, Philadelphia
Sept 13: Hullabaloo (this might be the air date, not recording date. not sure)
Sept 17 - 26: Safari Room, San Jose CA

Xmas recording dates are:
Sept 1: backgrounds for Twinkle Twinkle Little Me, Little Bright Star, Joy To The World
Sept 9: leads for Rudolph, Santa is Coming, My Fav, Silent Night & O Holy Night. backgrounds recut for Little Bright Star and backgrounds recorded for Born of Mary, Rudolph, Santa is Coming, My Fav
Sept 13: backgrounds for White Christmas
Sept 14: lead for First Noel, White Christmas, Little Drummer, My Christmas Tree, Little Bright Star, Joy to the World
Sept 15: lead for Silver Bells, Born of Mary, Children Christmas, Twinkle Twinkle
Sept 16: backgrounds for Children Christmas, Little Drummer, My Christmas Tree
Sept 21: backgrounds for Silver Bells

then on Sept 29 they recorded I Hear A Symphony

Obviously Flo came into the studios on 9/9 before they hit the road after the MI St Fair. Diana did her leads on 9/9 14 and 15. seems like they could have pulled M and F in for recordings too

there are no listed dates for the Christmas Song leads from D or M.

TheMotownManiac
09-13-2018, 04:32 PM
I don’t think it was always about scheduling. Sometimes they wanted a different sound like on Stop! And I don’t think Berry was that involved in the decision making process early on - I think the producers used what they felt best with DMF. With DMC, they were, to me, quite ineffective and I prefer the A’s to M&C in the 60s and 70s.

I admit to being sad Flo wasn’t on YCHL , and I know it must have hurt her a great deal to see it become a mega smash without her, but it IS perfect. On Merry Christmas, i’d Have preferred Mary & Flo on White Christmas and a few others, but for the most part, I’m ok as it is. I do not like the sound on white Christmas. They sound like the Vandellas

marv2
09-13-2018, 05:39 PM
yeah the Xmas recording dates would make you think M and F could have been there. The girls performance schedule was

Aug 27 - Sept 9: Michigan State Fair
Sept 10: JFK Stadium, Philadelphia
Sept 13: Hullabaloo (this might be the air date, not recording date. not sure)
Sept 17 - 26: Safari Room, San Jose CA

Xmas recording dates are:
Sept 1: backgrounds for Twinkle Twinkle Little Me, Little Bright Star, Joy To The World
Sept 9: leads for Rudolph, Santa is Coming, My Fav, Silent Night & O Holy Night. backgrounds recut for Little Bright Star and backgrounds recorded for Born of Mary, Rudolph, Santa is Coming, My Fav
Sept 13: backgrounds for White Christmas
Sept 14: lead for First Noel, White Christmas, Little Drummer, My Christmas Tree, Little Bright Star, Joy to the World
Sept 15: lead for Silver Bells, Born of Mary, Children Christmas, Twinkle Twinkle
Sept 16: backgrounds for Children Christmas, Little Drummer, My Christmas Tree
Sept 21: backgrounds for Silver Bells

then on Sept 29 they recorded I Hear A Symphony

Obviously Flo came into the studios on 9/9 before they hit the road after the MI St Fair. Diana did her leads on 9/9 14 and 15. seems like they could have pulled M and F in for recordings too

there are no listed dates for the Christmas Song leads from D or M.

Mary Wilson and Florence Ballard recorded songs for the Merry Christmas album.

sup_fan
09-13-2018, 06:05 PM
Mary Wilson and Florence Ballard recorded songs for the Merry Christmas album.

according to the liner notes from the last expanded edition, they did not. remember motown would have had to pay the Andantes for their sessions. this was also then billed to the producers until it was later passed onto whatever group(s) recorded their vocals to the track. so other than the very early years when things were a bit less organized, the accounting dept would have been tracking pretty closely when musicians were in the studios (and i'm counting the andantes as musicians, not a group).

now it's certainly possible that M and F did record some backing vocals and they're either wiped or lost. and that whatever studio recording times have also been lost. as we can see in the expanded edition notes, some tracks are just missing info.

sup_fan
09-13-2018, 06:10 PM
I don’t think it was always about scheduling. Sometimes they wanted a different sound like on Stop! And I don’t think Berry was that involved in the decision making process early on - I think the producers used what they felt best with DMF. With DMC, they were, to me, quite ineffective and I prefer the A’s to M&C in the 60s and 70s.

I admit to being sad Flo wasn’t on YCHL , and I know it must have hurt her a great deal to see it become a mega smash without her, but it IS perfect. On Merry Christmas, i’d Have preferred Mary & Flo on White Christmas and a few others, but for the most part, I’m ok as it is. I do not like the sound on white Christmas. They sound like the Vandellas

i think in some cases you're correct. IMO the marvelettes were often left off recording due to the andantes being stronger singers and faster to learn the parts. Producers have said often the Andantes self-produced and came up with their own harmonies and parts to songs. they were clearly very talented.

Also some producers probably just got very comfortable with using them and so it was simply faster and easier to do so. Also many, many songs were developed by producers and not immediately intended for the group that eventually got the release. songs were assigned and then reassigned, sometimes multiple times. if they already had the female backing vocals done using the andantes, then the producer simply had to pair it with the right lead singer, whether that was Wanda, Martha, Diana, Chris Clark, Jimmy Ruffin, David Ruffin, Brenda Holloway, etc,etc.

marv2
09-13-2018, 06:36 PM
according to the liner notes from the last expanded edition, they did not. remember motown would have had to pay the Andantes for their sessions. this was also then billed to the producers until it was later passed onto whatever group(s) recorded their vocals to the track. so other than the very early years when things were a bit less organized, the accounting dept would have been tracking pretty closely when musicians were in the studios (and i'm counting the andantes as musicians, not a group).

now it's certainly possible that M and F did record some backing vocals and they're either wiped or lost. and that whatever studio recording times have also been lost. as we can see in the expanded edition notes, some tracks are just missing info.

Florence recorded "Silent Night" and O' Holy Night" during those sessions for "Merry Christmas". There was a song Mary Wilson sang with Diana Ross that was recorded during those sessions as well. I believe it was released just last year.

There has been so much misinformation put out there regarding this album. Harvey Fuqua at one point said it was recorded in LA. That didn't sound right to me when later folks started saying that the Andantes did all the backgrounds. They only did sessions in Detroit not LA. The back photo. for the album was taken out near LA, but that is the only thing I can verify about LA associated with the album. I don't think people remember the details anymore.

vgalindo
09-13-2018, 07:39 PM
I always thought "Baby Doll" was the Andantes, but last year I came to the conclusion that it's part Flo and Mary and part Andantes. (Whatever the case, it's a song I hate so makes no difference...no pun intended...to me.:p)

I agree about Merry Christmas. I once read- can't remember where- that Lamont Dozier said that on some of the Christmas tracks, Flo and Mary were double tracked. I never knew if he was saying the girls were double tracked with themselves or with the Andantes. And if only the Andantes had done backup, why would Lamont say that Flo and Mary were double tracked? For the life of me I still don't understand why Flo and Mary would get Christmas leads but not be brought in to do background. So I figured that any Christmas expanded would include tracks with Flo and Mary and no Andantes, like the Funny Girl previously unreleased cuts, and I was disappointed to find that the expanded edition did not include anything such as this. I am not giving up hope that backgrounds with Flo and Mary exist. After all, it was only after the expanded edition that Mary's Christmas lead was discovered. No reason to think there is no chance that Christmas tracks with Flo and Mary on backup aren't waiting to be found.
Why would Lamont Dozier be commenting on the Merry Christmas album? I didn't think they had anything to do with this album. Wasn't this album produced by Harvey Fuqua?

floyjoy678
09-13-2018, 07:52 PM
Here's my train of thought: If Flo was in the studio doing her leads the same day those background vocals were cut, who's to say she didn't join in with the Andantes? There's several songs where it sounds like more than just the Andantes.

RanRan79
09-13-2018, 08:36 PM
Why would Lamont Dozier be commenting on the Merry Christmas album? I didn't think they had anything to do with this album. Wasn't this album produced by Harvey Fuqua?

Thanks V, you're right. It was Fuqua, not Dozier.

RanRan79
09-13-2018, 08:37 PM
Here's my train of thought: If Flo was in the studio doing her leads the same day those background vocals were cut, who's to say she didn't join in with the Andantes? There's several songs where it sounds like more than just the Andantes.

That's a good point and a possibility.

bradsupremes
09-13-2018, 09:08 PM
Mary recorded a lead on "The Christmas Song." Flo recorded leads on "O Holy Night" and "Silent Night." Those are the only songs they recorded for the Christmas album. They didn't do any background vocals on any of the tracks. The session logs and tape cards don't indicate they did and if they did, we would have known or Andy & George would have said it in the track annotations. All of the background vocals are the Andantes.

There are many instances were all three ladies were in town, but weren't used in one recording sessions or record all the same songs...

Example: October 24-26, 1966
The girls are home and recording tracks. One track in particular is "Old Love (Let's Try It Again)." On the 25th, Diana records a lead vocal on the track (her vocal gets erased). The following day, Mary & Flo go into the studio and record some tracks, but not "Old Love." Why not? This isn't the only instance where a lead or background wasn't recorded when they were working on the song the same day or the day prior.

Boogiedown
09-14-2018, 01:32 AM
There are many instances were all three ladies were in town, but weren't used in one recording sessions or record all the same songs...

Example: October 24-26, 1966
The girls are home and recording tracks. One track in particular is "Old Love (Let's Try It Again)." On the 25th, Diana records a lead vocal on the track (her vocal gets erased). The following day, Mary & Flo go into the studio and record some tracks, but not "Old Love." Why not? This isn't the only instance where a lead or background wasn't recorded when they were working on the song the same day or the day prior.

Good question!!!

RanRan79
09-14-2018, 01:37 AM
A year ago we all would've said Mary didn't get a Christmas lead, but now we know different. My position is that we only know what we know today. Mary's lead wasn't even discovered until after the first Christmas expanded. Andy and George mentioned nothing about it in the liner notes. So I'm not about to believe that there's no chance there aren't Christmas tracks with Flo and Mary on backing vocals simply because there's been no word about it today. There probably isn't a high chance of course, but with these new discoveries happening and new information passing around, who can say what exists and what doesn't with 100 percent certainty?

As far as "Old Love" goes, maybe the producers decided that "Old Love" wasn't worth the time and trouble to produce on the Supremes (since they supposedly erased Diana's lead anyway)? Not a far fetched scenario that by the time Flo and Mary came in to do their work, "Old Love" was already off the table. True?

rovereab
09-14-2018, 05:13 AM
Here is that version:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jaYvyH8mCpY

For some reason I cannot access this in the UK. Does anyone have a link that works for the UK please?

Thanks.

sup_fan
09-14-2018, 10:22 AM
the girls rarely, if ever except the early days, recorded as a group. Diana's lead vocals were often recorded on different days from the backgrounds. it most likely is just due to studio time and scheduling, plus singer availability. i have no idea why the order of songs recorded differed but that could be simply because of different producers, maybe different priorities - they thought one song might be a bigger hit than another, etc.

i don't think anyone is saying it's impossible that F and M aren't on Xmas. it's just that there is no evidence as of yet that they are. they're not on any of the session logs or paperwork.

given their travel schedule IF they are on anything for Xmas, it would only be Twinkle Twinkle, Little Bright Star, Joy to the World, Born of Mary, Rudolph, Santa and My Fav. the other tunes were recorded once they were out of Detroit on the concert circuit

RanRan79
09-14-2018, 01:06 PM
i don't think anyone is saying it's impossible that F and M aren't on Xmas. it's just that there is no evidence as of yet that they are. they're not on any of the session logs or paperwork.

I think everyone is in agreement that there is no evidence that Flo and Mary are singing backup on any of the Christmas tracks, but the impression I got from Brad's response was that he felt the subject was closed in the absence of any official Motown documentation. My take is quite the opposite. When it comes to the vaults, one never knows what might show up, hence Mary's Christmas lead. I still think it weird that Flo and Mary would go in to record leads for the project but be excluded from singing background. Weird, not impossible.

marv2
09-14-2018, 02:29 PM
For some reason I cannot access this in the UK. Does anyone have a link that works for the UK please?

Thanks.

I also hate when they do that. If I find something, I'll post it here for you.

jobeterob
09-14-2018, 02:41 PM
Isn’t the answer that HDH did what they thought was needed to achieve the sound they wanted after the lead was recorded

They used who they wanted when they wanted and it wasn’t group members a significant portion of the time which is why group members weren’t used at times when they were in town

There was none of the sensitivity that had developed in old fans of the group

marv2
09-14-2018, 05:54 PM
Isn’t the answer that HDH did what they thought was needed to achieve the sound they wanted after the lead was recorded

They used who they wanted when they wanted and it wasn’t group members a significant portion of the time which is why group members weren’t used at times when they were in town

There was none of the sensitivity that had developed in old fans of the group

No that was not the answer. I thought after being on this forum all this time that you were real Supremes fan. Mary Wilson and Florence Ballard sang on 90% of the Supremes hit records. Their sound together was the best and most unique sound period.

luke
09-14-2018, 08:11 PM
Of course they were. HDH have often spoken about how crucial Mary and Flo were to the group sound and their success.

marv2
09-14-2018, 08:15 PM
Of course they were. HDH have often spoken about how crucial Mary and Flo were to the group sound and their success.

Frank Wilson said something similar about Mary and Cindy.

luke
09-14-2018, 09:46 PM
That’s right. He said he felt their talent needed to be brought more up front!

RanRan79
09-14-2018, 10:15 PM
Of course they were. HDH have often spoken about how crucial Mary and Flo were to the group sound and their success.

Of all the producers, by my calculations, HDH and Smokey were the least likely to use the Andantes on the Supremes recordings, although Smokey may not have been as inclined to use Mary and Cindy during the DRATS years. It's wishful thinking to believe most of their recordings- or even half- are absent Flo and Mary.

bradsupremes
09-14-2018, 10:24 PM
I think everyone is in agreement that there is no evidence that Flo and Mary are singing backup on any of the Christmas tracks, but the impression I got from Brad's response was that he felt the subject was closed in the absence of any official Motown documentation. My take is quite the opposite. When it comes to the vaults, one never knows what might show up, hence Mary's Christmas lead. I still think it weird that Flo and Mary would go in to record leads for the project but be excluded from singing background. Weird, not impossible.

It is a closed subject because 1.) the session logs and tape cards don’t say “Group” when it came to vocals. They say “voices” which means the Andantes. Motown was very thorough in record keeping and documentation. Some things did fall through the cracks, but they were on the ball. I don’t think this was an exception. 2.) There is no evidence on tape either. When working on the Merry Christmas collection (2015 digital & 2017 CD release), they would have gone directly to the multitrack tapes for mixing and mastering. Nothing was found or else we would have heard it. I don’t see what other sources there could be on this.

The vaults have been exhausted on this. They didn’t record background vocals on the album.

RanRan79
09-15-2018, 03:14 AM
It is a closed subject because 1.) the session logs and tape cards don’t say “Group” when it came to vocals. They say “voices” which means the Andantes. Motown was very thorough in record keeping and documentation. Some things did fall through the cracks, but they were on the ball. I don’t think this was an exception. 2.) There is no evidence on tape either. When working on the Merry Christmas collection (2015 digital & 2017 CD release), they would have gone directly to the multitrack tapes for mixing and mastering. Nothing was found or else we would have heard it. I don’t see what other sources there could be on this.

The vaults have been exhausted on this. They didn’t record background vocals on the album.

Yeah, we thought the vaults had been exhausted on Supremes Christmas cuts after the 2015 expanded edition...but yet there's Mary singing a Christmas song two years later. You're probably right about this, but I'd like to see a show of hands of who would be shocked two years from now when the third expanded edition of the Christmas set comes out (and you know it will:rolleyes:) and there's newly discovered Christmas tracks with Flo and Mary backup. I think there probably isn't anything, but I'm not willing to bet my life on it.

TheMotownManiac
09-15-2018, 08:43 AM
I hope there’s a 2020 version Merry Christmas that is all Mary and Flo. I love a few of The A’s tracks like Little Bright Star and Santa Claus, but, I think i’d Like M&F even better - add a dash of The A’s when needed. I’m not expecting this, but it would be a nice present wouldn’t it? I’m not pushing their agenda one way or the other as I feel the best sound should be the only consideration of who to use on what. If I can deal with Flo not on YCHL, then I can deal with anything.

meanwhile, I don’t know why Mary doesn’t do a Christmas CD - her renditions of the classics could be a warm, fuzzy timeless holiday classic. Anyone doubting her chops can listen to her recent Imagine and rethink their position.

floyjoy678
09-15-2018, 10:49 PM
"Old Love" as an example is not really a good argument. Diana did her lead one day and Flo and Mary did background work the next day. Flo was in the studio doing her leads the SAME day as the background vocals being recorded, I find it hard to believe they didn't have her join in with the Andantes for a couple of songs.

bradsupremes
09-16-2018, 03:18 PM
"Old Love" as an example is not really a good argument. Diana did her lead one day and Flo and Mary did background work the next day. Flo was in the studio doing her leads the SAME day as the background vocals being recorded, I find it hard to believe they didn't have her join in with the Andantes for a couple of songs.

There are other examples where Mary & Flo or Mary & Cindy would go into the studio and do some background vocal work and then the same day the Andantes came in and did backgrounds on a Supremes track. Why? It could be the producer's preference. I can think of only a few instances where the Supremes and Andantes recorded together in the studio. The third version of "Mother Dear" from 1966 is an example. "The Nitty Gritty" in 1968 was another. If Flo was included on the tracks with the Andantes, we would have heard her. The Christmas album is all Andantes.

sup_fan
09-17-2018, 10:52 AM
Of all the producers, by my calculations, HDH and Smokey were the least likely to use the Andantes on the Supremes recordings, although Smokey may not have been as inclined to use Mary and Cindy during the DRATS years. It's wishful thinking to believe most of their recordings- or even half- are absent Flo and Mary.

Smokey used the andantes predominantly once it became DRATS. Of course his early work with the Sups featured a lot of great 3-part harmonies and even the brief shared lead lines on Breathtaking. And there's Flo's outro in Long Gone Lover.

and during the WDOLG and More Hits, he did quite a few unreleased tracks and still kept working out some strong harmonies - Mr Blues, I Idolize You, Too Much a Little Too Soon, Oowee Baby plus others

And then by the time of Symphony, he seems to have no production time with the Sups.

for A Go Go time period, he only did one tune - Misery makes its home. This has Mary and Marlene on backgrounds

and then really none during Sing HDH period.

After it became DRATS, he did a few during the Reflections period - Then.

Join the Temps - Then and Second That Emotion, i believe M and C. maybe Andantes added?

Love child - he's my sunny boy, which did use M and C.

let sunshine - will this be the day (M and C), Composer (Andantes)

unreleased DRATS - all using Andantes. Sweet Thing, Are You sure love is the name of this game, treat me nice john henry

Cream of Crop - all using Andantes. Loving You is better than ever, till johnny comes,

Floy Joy sessions - all use Andantes in addition to Sups except Precious little things. hard to tell sometimes what are M and C and what's andantes. like in Automatically Sunshine.

blackguy69
09-17-2018, 11:55 AM
Mary and Cindy are on treat me nice John Henry

sup_fan
09-17-2018, 12:39 PM
it's possible they are - i haven't listened to this one in forever. it falls into one of the corny Smokey songs i don't like lolol.

because we don't have the expanded editions yet for most of the DRATS material, i'm not really sure of dates. I have a date of "12/18/67" for when they were working on Treat Me Nice John Henry. But of course that could have been when some of the backing track was recorded, when the lead was recorded, etc.

I also have them working on I'm Gonna Make It on 12/18/67. and i think that's one that was the andantes. again - will have to listen to it to confirm

blackguy69
09-17-2018, 01:42 PM
it's possible they are - i haven't listened to this one in forever. it falls into one of the corny Smokey songs i don't like lolol.

because we don't have the expanded editions yet for most of the DRATS material, i'm not really sure of dates. I have a date of "12/18/67" for when they were working on Treat Me Nice John Henry. But of course that could have been when some of the backing track was recorded, when the lead was recorded, etc.

I also have them working on I'm Gonna Make It on 12/18/67. and i think that's one that was the andantes. again - will have to listen to it to confirm
Deke Richards clearly stated on I’m Gonna Make It it was Mary and Cindy only.

sup_fan
09-17-2018, 02:56 PM
there's another of the "reflections-ish" songs on that albums that is pretty clearly the Andantes. perhaps its I Can't Make It Alone.

I do think it's also M and C on Am I Asking Too Much

RanRan79
09-17-2018, 03:22 PM
Deke Richards clearly stated on I’m Gonna Make It it was Mary and Cindy only.

Sounds like Mary and Cindy to me, but I don't buy for a moment that it's anyone other than the Andantes on "John Henry". Mary and Cindy together were incapable of that sound. To me it's "trademark" Andantes on that one.

RanRan79
09-17-2018, 03:23 PM
there's another of the "reflections-ish" songs on that albums that is pretty clearly the Andantes. perhaps its I Can't Make It Alone.

I do think it's also M and C on Am I Asking Too Much

Yes, "Make It" is definitely the Andantes and "Am I Asking Too Much" is definitely Mary and Cindy. I love that cut.

blackguy69
09-17-2018, 04:55 PM
Sounds like Mary and Cindy to me, but I don't buy for a moment that it's anyone other than the Andantes on "John Henry". Mary and Cindy together were incapable of that sound. To me it's "trademark" Andantes on that one.i didn’t say the andantes weren’t on it. More than likely it was both

RanRan79
09-18-2018, 10:26 AM
i didn’t say the andantes weren’t on it. More than likely it was both

Personally I only hear the Andantes, but ya never know.

blackguy69
09-18-2018, 11:45 AM
Personally I only hear the Andantes, but ya never know.
If they were louder maybe we could tell

RanRan79
09-18-2018, 01:57 PM
If they were louder maybe we could tell

The background is a bit buried, isn't it? Do you like the song? I don't think it had hit potential, but I've always loved it. Thought it might have made a good album track.

sup_fan
09-18-2018, 02:37 PM
i think John Henry is too odd-ball lyrics. go figure - i'm not a huge fan of a smokey produced Sups track! lolol

it's just silly - sort of like Ode to Paul Bunyan. "Name" songs can often be too specific but sometimes it really works.

bradsupremes
09-19-2018, 03:25 PM
"I'm Gonna Make It (I Will Wait For You" and "Am I Asking Too Much" is Mary & Cindy

"I Can't Make It Alone" and "Treat Me Nice John Henry" are the Andantes.

I agree about Smokey "name" songs. He had a thing for adding names to songs or title. While I love the tracks, I always felt they were limiting to an audience. "Treat Me Nice John Henry" works though as I always felt it was about the folklore character, John Henry.

sup_fan
09-19-2018, 04:07 PM
i'm frankly not all that sad that much of the Smokey tracks ended up in the vault. Till Johnny Comes is a beautiful song, although it makes me grin. yes yes, i'm going into the gutter. Just like Diana's song "I Ain't Been Licked!" lolol :p

i do think some other sensation tracks should NOT have been relegated to the vaults
*look of love
*stormy
*beginning of the end of love
*wish i knew
*if you should walk away
*heaven must have sent you
*am i asking too much

overall i list the vast majority of the album material DRATS released. i just think the way they combined the various tracks into lp's could have been greatly confused. 90 - 95% of the released tracks on their albums, i'd still release. just shifting them around and combining them into the same albums in different manners

RanRan79
09-20-2018, 12:02 PM
I agree with all of those you named Sup, although I still think the "Heaven" cut on DRATS sounds a bit stale compared to the Elgins. It's so annoying that the Supremes were consistently given inferior tracks when covering other Motown songs. I really don't understand the direction the producers were going for when doing this.

lucky2012
09-20-2018, 12:29 PM
I agree with all of those you named Sup, although I still think the "Heaven" cut on DRATS sounds a bit stale compared to the Elgins. It's so annoying that the Supremes were consistently given inferior tracks when covering other Motown songs. I really don't understand the direction the producers were going for when doing this.
Saving Money? Now that would be annoying, and wrong ​because they were the Supremes.

RanRan79
09-20-2018, 12:33 PM
Saving Money? Now that would be annoying, and wrong ​because they were the Supremes.

Saving money wasn't a concern because the Supremes paid for recording sessions. I could be wrong in that artists and producers paid for studio time, but I'm under the impression that the artists paid for studio time, not the producers. Maybe someone more knowledgeable can set me straight on this.

reese
09-20-2018, 01:58 PM
Saving money wasn't a concern because the Supremes paid for recording sessions. I could be wrong in that artists and producers paid for studio time, but I'm under the impression that the artists paid for studio time, not the producers. Maybe someone more knowledgeable can set me straight on this.

I think that was the case. The producers paid for the initial session to record the track. But after artists put a vocal on, the charges were transferred to them.

RanRan79
09-20-2018, 08:05 PM
I think that was the case. The producers paid for the initial session to record the track. But after artists put a vocal on, the charges were transferred to them.

Makes sense. So it wouldn't be an issue of money. The producers pay up front knowing they'll recoup the cost when the artist lays a vocal. This leads us back to the initial mystery of why the subpar tracks for Motown covers by the Supremes.

marybrewster
09-21-2018, 08:12 AM
So did Mary and Cindy have to pay for sessions they never sang on, if they got credit over the Andantes?

jim aka jtigre99
09-21-2018, 09:06 AM
It only makes sense that Flo, Mary and Cindy would pay for the sessions where the Andantes sang. After all, it was simply because they were not used not because they were not willing, the Andantes were probably paid for the session and Flo, Mary and Cindy were receiving royalties for those songs they paid for. I think that makes sense.

sup_fan
09-21-2018, 10:26 AM
i believe the Producers paid for the initial sessions where they recorded the initial backing tracks. if they used studio singers (andantes, the water sisters, whomever), the producer would most likely have paid for that because the singers were salaried.

guessing here - I don't know that the groups were charged for "produced tracks" but rather session time. not totally sure here but if the Supremes were booked to record vocals from 1 - 7 PM on a Wednesday, they'd be charged for that studio time. there are many instances of them working on material from a variety of producers. I've always understood it that producers would be told when a group/singer was scheduled for studio time and then they'd bring in their materials. My assumption is that the producer was then "reimbursed" for the initial costs of the production recording sessions (where they did backing tracks and all) from the fees charged the singers for studio time.

I don't know if motown charged one rate for lead singer studio time and another for backing singer studio time. i'm assuming they did not. therefore the groups were billed for studio time regardless of who was recording what, the fees would have been divided across the members. so then technically yes, M F and C were charged for Diana's studio recordings. as things advanced into later 69, maybe they weren't charged for things that were being planned for D solo work

anyone know if this is correct?

marv2
09-21-2018, 10:44 AM
It only makes sense that Flo, Mary and Cindy would pay for the sessions where the Andantes sang. After all, it was simply because they were not used not because they were not willing, the Andantes were probably paid for the session and Flo, Mary and Cindy were receiving royalties for those songs they paid for. I think that makes sense.

According to the Supremes contracts, replacing any of them on recordings when the singer was available and willing to record was forbidden. This was one of the issues raised in Mary Wilson's 1978 lawsuit against Motown.

luke
09-21-2018, 11:29 AM
Oh yes. I remember that. Quite bizarre. Getting replaced when you could sing and then having to pay for your substitutes!

marv2
09-21-2018, 11:23 PM
Oh yes. I remember that. Quite bizarre. Getting replaced when you could sing and then having to pay for your substitutes!

Which is another reason I do not believe much of the talk that people "hear the Andantes" on so many records by the Supremes! LOL!!!

jim aka jtigre99
09-22-2018, 08:01 AM
According to the Supremes contracts, replacing any of them on recordings when the singer was available and willing to record was forbidden. This was one of the issues raised in Mary Wilson's 1978 lawsuit against Motown.
Unfortunately, they did it and Mary had a stronger case than she realized. Had she been not bled to death financially, as she stated in her books, and was able to see it through I can just imagine the result.

milven
09-22-2018, 10:48 AM
According to the Supremes contracts, replacing any of them on recordings when the singer was available and willing to record was forbidden. This was one of the issues raised in Mary Wilson's 1978 lawsuit against Motown.

Did this work in reverse when the singer was avaiable but declined to work? I recall when Berry was desperately looking for a number one for the group, he had LOVE CHILD ready to record, but Mary was exausted from a tour and went to Mexico. Cindy was still available, but Berry decided not to use either one of them. So how did that work. Did Cindy get roylites since she was willing to work, but Berry said no and did Mary not get royalites because she was not willing to work?

reese
09-22-2018, 11:16 AM
Did this work in reverse when the singer was avaiable but declined to work? I recall when Berry was desperately looking for a number one for the group, he had LOVE CHILD ready to record, but Mary was exausted from a tour and went to Mexico. Cindy was still available, but Berry decided not to use either one of them. So how did that work. Did Cindy get roylites since she was willing to work, but Berry said no and did Mary not get royalites because she was not willing to work?

I think they also received royalties on recordings that they didn't actually record, as they were still issued under the Supremes name. J. Randy Taborrelli wrote this in one of his books.

marv2
09-22-2018, 11:50 AM
Did this work in reverse when the singer was avaiable but declined to work? I recall when Berry was desperately looking for a number one for the group, he had LOVE CHILD ready to record, but Mary was exausted from a tour and went to Mexico. Cindy was still available, but Berry decided not to use either one of them. So how did that work. Did Cindy get roylites since she was willing to work, but Berry said no and did Mary not get royalites because she was not willing to work?

We would have to see the contracts to know if it worked in reverse.

marv2
09-22-2018, 11:51 AM
I think they also received royalties on recordings that they didn't actually record, as they were still issued under the Supremes name. J. Randy Taborrelli wrote this in one of his books.

Milven here's your answer right here. Thank you Reese.

TheMotownManiac
09-22-2018, 05:20 PM
Unfortunately, they did it and Mary had a stronger case than she realized. Had she been not bled to death financially, as she stated in her books, and was able to see it through I can just imagine the result.
I personally would have to see the contract in order to believe this clause as written. There’s no reason for Motown to include it as it worked against them, and since the girls had no real representation, who would have put it in there and why?

Also, even if it is in there, I’m sure it referred to performances and not recordings as Berry knew how flighty groups were. Just smells fishy to me somewhere.