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Motown Eddie
07-23-2018, 06:55 AM
Sun. 7/29/08-09:00 PM


The Supremes' Florence Ballard
Florence Ballard was the founding member of the popular Motown vocal female group the Supremes. Ballard sang on 16 top forty singles with the group, including ten number-one hits. After being removed from the Supremes in 1967, Ballard tried an unsuccessful solo career. Ballard struggled with alcoholism, depression, and poverty for three years. She was making an attempt for a musical comeback when she died of a heart attack in February 1976 at the age of 32.

CoolKatz
07-23-2018, 02:30 PM
Peter Benjaminson has confirmed that the last hours of Florence Ballard is a reality. The episode will preceed the Supremes breaking the band episode. I watched the Karen Carpenter Last hours and it was tastefully done. Peter has said that clips of the interviews that he did with Florence will likely be featured in both programs

midnightman
07-23-2018, 09:41 PM
Third Motown act they covered after MJ and Marvin.

longtimefan
07-23-2018, 11:37 PM
Am I the only one that finds this tabloid presentation promoting Florence’s passing as unnecessary? ...disrespectful? ...exploitive?

Bluebrock
07-24-2018, 02:06 AM
Am I the only one that finds this tabloid presentation promoting Florence’s passing as unnecessary? ...disrespectful? ...exploitive?
No, you are not. I shall most certainly be giving this most distasteful programe a very wide berth.

PeaceNHarmony
07-24-2018, 08:18 AM
Am I the only one that finds this tabloid presentation promoting Florence’s passing as unnecessary? ...disrespectful? ...exploitive?
No. I guess the obsessives would prefer to have Ballard dug up and actually autopsied but they'll have to settle for this. I would think Ballard's descendants would try to put a cease-and-desist on this.

midnightman
07-24-2018, 12:00 PM
Am I the only one that finds this tabloid presentation promoting Florence’s passing as unnecessary? ...disrespectful? ...exploitive?

Nah. That's one reason I avoided the MG one on TV [[I did see it online because I was curious and it was just tabloid-ish). The guy thought Marvin Sr. shot him in the shoulder first but the autopsy said the first shot was at the heart.

I felt it was an attempt to try to push the blame on Marvin for his father's shots when it was reported the other way around. So I really fear what they're gonna say about Flo.

Roberta75
07-24-2018, 12:53 PM
No, you are not. I shall most certainly be giving this most distasteful programe a very wide berth.

If this tasteless show had any new pertinent information it wouldnt be on an obsucre network that gets 181,000 viewers. I wont be watching.

THE MOST-WATCHED NETWORKS OF 2017 [[BY TOTAL VIEWERS)

https://www.indiewire.com/2017/12/highest-network-ratings-2017-most-watched-hbo-cbs-espn-fx-msnbc-fox-news-1201911363/




84
Reelzchannel

181,000

Bluebrock
07-25-2018, 02:58 AM
If this tasteless show had any new pertinent information it wouldnt be on an obsucre network that gets 181,000 viewers. I wont be watching.

THE MOST-WATCHED NETWORKS OF 2017 [[BY TOTAL VIEWERS)

https://www.indiewire.com/2017/12/highest-network-ratings-2017-most-watched-hbo-cbs-espn-fx-msnbc-fox-news-1201911363/




84
Reelzchannel

181,000



Florence should be allowed to rest in peace. Nothing would convince me to watch this tawdry piece of television.

Circa 1824
07-25-2018, 07:26 AM
I see nothing wrong with this type of show. The subjects were public figures. Many of these "Last Hours of ..." episodes have been very interesting, and it keeps these dead people's names alive.

franjoy56
07-25-2018, 09:23 AM
I see nothing wrong with this type of show. The subjects were public figures. Many of these "Last Hours of ..." episodes have been very interesting, and it keeps these dead people's names alive. i remember maxine ballard put something on social media about her sister and foul play. If something has been discovered i would be interested in hearing about it
I wont make any judgement until the show has aired. All i know is that flo was dealt a rotten trump card after the supremes.

PeaceNHarmony
07-25-2018, 09:38 AM
Florence should be allowed to rest in peace. Nothing would convince me to watch this tawdry piece of television.
I agree fully. Sadly a lot of the membership here is still, 40 years on, unable to accept Florence's responsibility for her own life and continue to seek villains, conspirators and baseless 'foul play'. They are the flat-earth and djt-fake-news crowd. Undoubtedly violence survivors and addicts have a lot to deal with but it is up to each individual to make their own life a success. You can be either a Tina or a Florence; the choice is yours. Likewise you can take a half-hour of your life and contact your local representatives expressing your concerns about political events or you can take that same half-hour and watch this garbage.

Boogiedown
07-25-2018, 03:14 PM
Haha- all this preemptive hate for something no one's seen!

Another angle might be , thank god a new presentation that'll help keep the Florence Ballard story alive and reignite interest in her.

milven
07-25-2018, 09:19 PM
I....Likewise you can take a half-hour of your life and contact your local representatives expressing your concerns about political events or you can take that same half-hour and watch this garbage.

I could probably find the time to do both. But I will definately watch this. Already set the DVR. May turn out to be a piece of sh*t. If it is, I can just stop watching it. But I see no sense in pre-judging it.

LoveSupreme
07-26-2018, 10:09 AM
REELZ is the National Enquirer of cable television. Their documentaries are little more than sensationalist-conspiracy theory wielding pieces that do nothing to serve the memory of the subject's they choose to profile.

Two docu-series that they produced left me completely disgusted at how they treated the subject matter. The first was on Natalie Wood, the second one was far worse - it was on Sharon Tate and they had the audacity to re-create her horrific murder. They had actors portray the Manson family and the victims with scripted dialogue supposedly based on court documents. I watched all the way up until the part where "Sharon" was sitting on the couch crying and begging for her life while her murderers stood by taunting her and showing her no mercy - - - at that moment I snapped out of it and said to myself, "What the f#ck are you watching?!?". This was a real human being, this actually happened!! This is NOT entertainment!!! I turned the TV off...but it completely left me shook! I had to sleep with the lights on that night.

milven
07-26-2018, 10:24 AM
I have never watched REELZ tv and was not even familiar with it. But from what I am reading here, I am probably better off not knowing about it.

Nevertheless, I do have my DVR set and will attempt to watch this, out of curiousity and becasue I am s Supremes fan and keep up with the good and bad.

However, if it is one of those tabloid NATIONAL ENQUIRER type stories, I, too, will say "What the f#ck am I watching?!?" and turn it off.

Gotta admit, while on checkout lines at supermarkets, I glance at the headlines on National Enquirer. Curiousity. National Enquirer is the real definition of fake news.

From what I am reading here, REELZ is similar to National Enquirer. So my prediction is that I will probably glance at the beginning, form an opinion, and leave.

RanRan79
07-26-2018, 10:49 AM
Thanks for the info y'all because I never would've known this was coming on. I have never even heard of REELZ. Despite the objections [[which appear to come from different motivations) I have set my DVR to catch it and the following program about the Supremes. Hopefully it isn't a bunch of crap, but being a huge Flo Ballard fan, I'm not going to miss it. Who knows what kind of new information could be learned between all the bull? How interesting that she is even the subject of an "hour" long program on any network. Just goes to show that Flo Ballard, Diana Ross, and the Supremes still get people talking so many years after their heyday. That's a signature sign of a legend.

PeaceNHarmony
07-26-2018, 07:05 PM
I vaguely recall that Florence had some older siblings; I've always wonder how they escaped public scrutiny regarding her last years. Usually family members step in when another member hits bad times. Perhaps this program will address that.

luke
07-26-2018, 07:52 PM
It’s so great that Florence and the Supremes are being remembered.

BayouMotownMan
07-26-2018, 08:36 PM
Randy Taraborrelli and I were both asked to participate in these shows and we both declined. I have said all I want to say about Flo and it's time to let her rest in peace. The autopsy show is bizarre and tasteless.

PeaceNHarmony
07-26-2018, 09:40 PM
Randy Taraborrelli and I were both asked to participate in these shows and we both declined. I have said all I want to say about Flo and it's time to let her rest in peace. The autopsy show is bizarre and tasteless.

A congrat to the both of you. And let's hope that someday there will be a Ballard tribute recognizing her contribution to American popular music and the advancement of Black Americans. That's how I think of Florence Ballard.

milven
07-26-2018, 09:47 PM
I just watched one of these episodes earlier tonight for the first time. It was about Roy Orbison. I only watched about fifteen minutes of it. Seems like they were trying to establish that he died from something other than a heart attack. Disapointed.

Still going to tape the Flo episode, but I imagine it will be the same thing:[[.

Roberta75
07-26-2018, 10:29 PM
Randy Taraborrelli and I were both asked to participate in these shows and we both declined. I have said all I want to say about Flo and it's time to let her rest in peace. The autopsy show is bizarre and tasteless.

You show real class all the time my friend.

midnightman
07-26-2018, 10:57 PM
Randy Taraborrelli and I were both asked to participate in these shows and we both declined. I have said all I want to say about Flo and it's time to let her rest in peace. The autopsy show is bizarre and tasteless.

You did the right thing. I remember when Marvin's debuted, and Janis' brother was on it acting like he was close with the Gaye family and Janis read his a$$ and then cut all contact with him for appearing on the show.

marv2
07-27-2018, 04:48 AM
This sounds like it is going to be a great and interesting program. I don't Dish Network so I am going to have to get someone with it to tape it for me or look for it on Youtube. I wonder how far they are going to go?

marybrewster
07-27-2018, 08:52 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z2kOq3KPrJg&feature=share

marybrewster
07-27-2018, 09:06 PM
Randy Taraborrelli and I were both asked to participate in these shows and we both declined. I have said all I want to say about Flo and it's time to let her rest in peace. The autopsy show is bizarre and tasteless.

I wish Mary would have sat this one out too. The clips I've seen are certain to start a fire storm here in the next few days.

Roberta75
07-27-2018, 09:45 PM
I wish Mary would have sat this one out too. The clips I've seen are certain to start a fire storm here in the next few days.

I do too but Mary Wilson loves to talk about Diane and the Supremes. I LOL everuytime she says "we are sisters and we love each other very much" LOL

Ollie9
07-28-2018, 07:37 AM
I wonder if Gordy had asked Florence if she like to stay with the Marvelettes on a permanent basis she might have replied "Yes please". Sadly she appeared unable to cope with the immense pressure when the success of the Supremes went mega.
Life throws a lot of s--t at all of us at some point but we have to pick ourselves up and get on with it. Sadly for whatever reasons this was something Flo was unable to do.
I seem to remember reading in Taraborelli's book that in one of the last letters Florence sent to him she mentioned Diana, commenting "Diana is not all that bad" or something like that. She appeared to be reconciled with her past and at peace with herself. Ready to start a new.
I guess such info generally makes for boring reading and dull tv docu. Far more intriguing to hear about the wicked queen.

PeaceNHarmony
07-28-2018, 07:59 AM
I wonder if Gordy had asked Florence if she like to stay with the Marvelettes on a permanent basis she might have replied "Yes please". Sadly she appeared unable to cope with the immense pressure when the success of the Supremes went mega.
Life throws a lot of s--t at all of us at some point but we have to pick ourselves up and get on with it. Sadly for whatever reasons this was something Flo was unable to do.
I seem to remember reading in Taraborelli's book that in one of the last letters Florence sent to him she mentioned Diana, commenting "Diana is not all that bad" or something like that. She appeared to be reconciled with her past and at peace with herself. Ready to start a new.
I guess such info generally makes for boring reading and dull tv docu. Far more intriguing to hear about the wicked queen.
I agree all around. When onlookers identify with someone unfortunate, there is no end to the race to the bottom to find someone to blame. I wonder - did the program address the matter of why Florence's rather large family was unwilling or unable to assist her?

marv2
07-28-2018, 10:08 AM
I wonder if Gordy had asked Florence if she like to stay with the Marvelettes on a permanent basis she might have replied "Yes please". Sadly she appeared unable to cope with the immense pressure when the success of the Supremes went mega.
Life throws a lot of s--t at all of us at some point but we have to pick ourselves up and get on with it. Sadly for whatever reasons this was something Flo was unable to do.
I seem to remember reading in Taraborelli's book that in one of the last letters Florence sent to him she mentioned Diana, commenting "Diana is not all that bad" or something like that. She appeared to be reconciled with her past and at peace with herself. Ready to start a new.
I guess such info generally makes for boring reading and dull tv docu. Far more intriguing to hear about the wicked queen.

That is not true and this is getting ridiculous. Florence Ballard was only 32 years old when she died. She still did not have that kind of maturity only gained from having a long life. She never wrote any letter to Berry Gordy and there was NO type of reconciliation with Diane Ross. That is bullshit that Ross fans made up years ago and try to keep that lie alive.

They are going to get to bottom of what really happened to Florence Ballard one way or another. One day if not today. It is not going to stop even after all of the principle players are long dead and gone and that includes Diana Ross and Berry Gordy so just get use to it or try to ignore it.

In any case the common perception is that Diana Ross did Florence Ballard in, back stabbed her and that is too widespread to be overturned now. People can try to re-write history and do a bunch of fluffy fantasized Broadway plays, but the belief that dirty pool was involve will remain! Florence Ballard's story is still referred to as the greatest tragedy in Rock history.

khansperac
07-28-2018, 10:24 AM
It should be noted that the YouTube clip above is not from the autopsy show, but from the show that comes on right after it, called breaking the band.

BayouMotownMan
07-28-2018, 10:37 AM
[QUOTE=marv2;471905]That is not true and this is getting ridiculous. Florence Ballard was only 32 years old when she died. She still did not have that kind of maturity only gained from having a long life. She never wrote any letter to Berry Gordy and there was NO type of reconciliation with Diane Ross. That is bullshit that Ross fans made up years ago and try to keep that lie alive.

Typical response from the same typical, misinformed basher.

During Christmas of 1975, two months before she died, Florence and Tommy went to see Mahogany which had just opened in Detroit. A couple days later Flo got Diana's number and called her. The two spoke for about an hour with Flo telling Diana how much she enjoyed her movies but didn't think Ross was anything like Tracy Chambers in real life. She told Diana she was getting back in shape and wanted to sing again. Flo also acknowledged during the call that she knew she had brought on most of her problems herself. Diana encouraged Flo and even told her she would do all she could to help her. It was a loving phone between two old friends.

Shortly after this Flo sent Randy a postcard thanking him for the money he and the rest of the fans collected and sent to her. She said she was in good spirits, had spoken to Diana and that she was having good thoughts about Diana, ending with "she ain't so bad."

Eight weeks later Flo was gone. As I said in Mysteries and Scandals, the real tragedy was that Flo had faced her demons and was determined not to be a victim any longer when the sudden heart attack happened.

RanRan79
07-28-2018, 10:41 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z2kOq3KPrJg&feature=share

So what's new? [[This is from the Breaking the Band show, btw.) Looks like viewing for someone in need of something to do for an hour, certainly not us diehards or even people remotely familiar with the Supremes story. We all know how it went down. Ross was elevated by Gordy over the other two, and being a typical young female, Ross let it go to her head and she relished in the special attention. Flo felt betrayed and in some ways self destructed, while also having to deal with someone who valued money over her well being, and her inability to handle the situation maturely ultimately led to her dismissal. Mary toed the line because she didn't want to end back up in the welfare line. She went along to get along. I'm betting this sums up the program, ya know, aside from the Diana Ross was the world's greatest bitch and Flo Ballard was the world's greatest victim and Mary Wilson is the only one willing to tell the truth.*rolls eyes* I'm still watching it though.:cool:

BayouMotownMan
07-28-2018, 10:42 AM
So glad I declined this show. I can already tell it's not balanced.

khansperac
07-28-2018, 10:45 AM
I read on this forum years ago a story about Diana visiting Florence at her home and they talked for a while. Is there any truth to that story?

Ollie9
07-28-2018, 10:54 AM
That is not true and this is getting ridiculous. Florence Ballard was only 32 years old when she died. She still did not have that kind of maturity only gained from having a long life. She never wrote any letter to Berry Gordy and there was NO type of reconciliation with Diane Ross. That is bullshit that Ross fans made up years ago and try to keep that lie alive.

They are going to get to bottom of what really happened to Florence Ballard one way or another. One day if not today. It is not going to stop even after all of the principle players are long dead and gone and that includes Diana Ross and Berry Gordy so just get use to it or try to ignore it.

In any case the common perception is that Diana Ross did Florence Ballard in, back stabbed her and that is too widespread to be overturned now. People can try to re-write history and do a bunch of fluffy fantasized Broadway plays, but the belief that dirty pool was involve will remain! Florence Ballard's story is still referred to as the greatest tragedy in Rock history.

The gospel according to marv...Hmmm.
It really is of no suprise to me that you find all this ridiculous. I'm quite sure if i had posted Diana Ross was a nasty [[*&^%$ as regards her treatment of flo you would be waving a banner and insisting this was the utter, complete and bonafide truth. As it stands neither you or i were there at the time to witness what actually happened. Speculation and hearsay is all we have to go on. I just happen to think Diana Ross was not the villain these rather tawdry docu's try to make her out to be.... Just my opinion dear.

RanRan79
07-28-2018, 10:56 AM
I wonder if Gordy had asked Florence if she like to stay with the Marvelettes on a permanent basis she might have replied "Yes please". Sadly she appeared unable to cope with the immense pressure when the success of the Supremes went mega.

I don't think Flo would have ever abandoned the Supremes for the Marvelettes, not in 1962. Okay, maybe there's a chance because the Marvelettes were already where Flo and the Supremes wanted to go, but I still doubt it. Remember Flo said she didn't think the Marvelettes could really sing and she fancied the Supremes the real deal where singing was concerned. I've always thought Flo was a driving force for the group in the early days because she really believed in the Supremes' ability to succeed, no matter how good any other girl group was. [[And I imagine if she truly thought of the Marvelettes as less than, it probably fueled her opinion even more that if a group like that could make it big, why not the Supremes?) Plus she doesn't appear to be unhappy as a Supreme until sometime in 1966. Now had Gordy asked her to take over for Gladys when she left...


Life throws a lot of s--t at all of us at some point but we have to pick ourselves up and get on with it. Sadly for whatever reasons this was something Flo was unable to do. I seem to remember reading in Taraborelli's book that in one of the last letters Florence sent to him she mentioned Diana, commenting "Diana is not all that bad" or something like that. She appeared to be reconciled with her past and at peace with herself. Ready to start a new. I guess such info generally makes for boring reading and dull tv docu. Far more intriguing to hear about the wicked queen.

Florence did pick herself up and get on with it. Some folks fall and hop right back up. Others lose their way for a time longer. I think it shows the strength of Flo's character that her story doesn't end with welfare and bitterness or drugs. Flo said it herself, she was ready to get back into the business, and Jack Ashford confirmed that he and Flo talked about doing something together. She said she made a lot of mistakes. What I took from Flo's various quotes prior to her death is that she took responsibility for her own actions but also refused to let others off the hook for their actions. I respect that so much because IMO neither Ross nor Gordy have ever done that. They've pointed the finger at Florence- and rightly so- and the things she did but they never say "but I could've handled the situation differently" or "I too said things and did things I shouldn't have". I've never heard them say that. No doubt in my mind that if not cut down by her health issue, Flo would've staged a comeback, and undoubtedly did it on her own terms.

BayouMotownMan
07-28-2018, 11:01 AM
Quite true khansperac. The recently deceased Ray Gibson, Flo's cousin, stayed with Flo a lot. He was there in early 1970 after Diana made her Farewell performance. Diana came to Detroit to see her family and walked down the street to see Flo. They embraced, Ross picked on Flo's new blonde wig and said "oh no, you really are Blondie."

They went to Flo's bedroom and talked for quite some time. Ray said Flo never said what they talked about but it was all warmth between them that day.

Now, had I done this show do you really think this would have made the final cut?

antceleb12
07-28-2018, 11:05 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z2kOq3KPrJg&feature=share

Yikes, this looks like garbage. If the first sign wasn't the shameless tabloid-esque storytelling, it was that painful, fictional "recreation" of events in the dressing room.

Hard pass.

RanRan79
07-28-2018, 11:05 AM
Typical response from the same typical, misinformed basher.

During Christmas of 1975, two months before she died, Florence and Tommy went to see Mahogany which had just opened in Detroit. A couple days later Flo got Diana's number and called her. The two spoke for about an hour with Flo telling Diana how much she enjoyed her movies but didn't think Ross was anything like Tracy Chambers in real life. She told Diana she was getting back in shape and wanted to sing again. Flo also acknowledged during the call that she knew she had brought on most of her problems herself. Diana encouraged Flo and even told her she would do all she could to help her. It was a loving phone between two old friends.

Shortly after this Flo sent Randy a postcard thanking him for the money he and the rest of the fans collected and sent to her. She said she was in good spirits, had spoken to Diana and that she was having good thoughts about Diana, ending with "she ain't so bad."

Eight weeks later Flo was gone. As I said in Mysteries and Scandals, the real tragedy was that Flo had faced her demons and was determined not to be a victim any longer when the sudden heart attack happened.

Flo and Diana's last conversation was first publicized in the late 70s by none other than Diana Ross. It was then elaborated on by JRandyT in CHMR in the late 80s. Peter Benjaminson also confirms the phone call and even quotes Florence about the call and her feelings about Diana on pages 164-65 in The Lost Supreme book. [[This is what it looks like when you source your claims.) Anyone claiming that this pleasant last conversation between the two never took place is a liar if he cannot produce a credible source to discredit it. I'll wait...

RanRan79
07-28-2018, 11:08 AM
I read on this forum years ago a story about Diana visiting Florence at her home and they talked for a while. Is there any truth to that story?

Never heard that one Khan. I can't imagine that it took place after Flo left the group.

Ollie9
07-28-2018, 11:08 AM
I read on this forum years ago a story about Diana visiting Florence at her home and they talked for a while. Is there any truth to that story?

Florence has said that she telephoned Diana in 75 and that they had a long conversation. Florence does not sound like the kind of woman who would do this unless she really wanted to. It appears at this point in time she still retained some affection for Diana and wanted to keep in touch.

RanRan79
07-28-2018, 11:12 AM
Quite true khansperac. The recently deceased Ray Gibson, Flo's cousin, stayed with Flo a lot. He was there in early 1970 after Diana made her Farewell performance. Diana came to Detroit to see her family and walked down the street to see Flo. They embraced, Ross picked on Flo's new blonde wig and said "oh no, you really are Blondie."

They went to Flo's bedroom and talked for quite some time. Ray said Flo never said what they talked about but it was all warmth between them that day.

Now, had I done this show do you really think this would have made the final cut?

If this story is at all true, cool. Flo did say the last time she and Diana spoke was in 1971 but there have never been any elaboration on what the circumstances were.

RanRan79
07-28-2018, 11:17 AM
Florence has said that she telephoned Diana in 75 and that they had a long conversation. Florence does not sound like the kind of woman who would do this unless she really wanted to. It appears at this point in time she still retained some affection for Diana and wanted to keep in touch.

Florence was not a woman who did things she didn't want to do. She's said as much. It's obvious that both women retained an affection for one another despite their issues. Remember, by the time that last conversation took place, both women were mothers of three children and in their early 30s. The stuff they had been beefing about happened years ago when they were in their early to mid 20s and subject to the immaturity that comes with those continuing growing years. What more was there for either of them to be pissed about?

Ollie9
07-28-2018, 11:33 AM
I don't think Flo would have ever abandoned the Supremes for the Marvelettes, not in 1962. Okay, maybe there's a chance because the Marvelettes were already where Flo and the Supremes wanted to go, but I still doubt it. Remember Flo said she didn't think the Marvelettes could really sing and she fancied the Supremes the real deal where singing was concerned. I've always thought Flo was a driving force for the group in the early days because she really believed in the Supremes' ability to succeed, no matter how good any other girl group was. [[And I imagine if she truly thought of the Marvelettes as less than, it probably fueled her opinion even more that if a group like that could make it big, why not the Supremes?) Plus she doesn't appear to be unhappy as a Supreme until sometime in 1966. Now had Gordy asked her to take over for Gladys when she left...



Florence did pick herself up and get on with it. Some folks fall and hop right back up. Others lose their way for a time longer. I think it shows the strength of Flo's character that her story doesn't end with welfare and bitterness or drugs. Flo said it herself, she was ready to get back into the business, and Jack Ashford confirmed that he and Flo talked about doing something together. She said she made a lot of mistakes. What I took from Flo's various quotes prior to her death is that she took responsibility for her own actions but also refused to let others off the hook for their actions. I respect that so much because IMO neither Ross nor Gordy have ever done that. They've pointed the finger at Florence- and rightly so- and the things she did but they never say "but I could've handled the situation differently" or "I too said things and did things I shouldn't have". I've never heard them say that. No doubt in my mind that if not cut down by her health issue, Flo would've staged a comeback, and undoubtedly did it on her own terms.

As always you raise some very good points RanRan. A really interesting post.
I do agree regarding Diana and Berry not seeming to accept that they perhaps could have handled the situation a little better. Having said that i feel Diana at least is not responsible for how Flo's life turned out. We all have to accept responsibility at some point.

RanRan79
07-28-2018, 11:48 AM
As always you raise some very good points RanRan. A really interesting post.
I do agree regarding Diana and Berry not seeming to accept that they perhaps could have handled the situation a little better. Having said that i feel Diana at least is not responsible for how Flo's life turned out. We all have to accept responsibility at some point.

Thanks Ollie. Don't misunderstand, I don't mean to imply that Diana- or Gordy- is responsible for anyone's life other than their own. But in being responsible for one's self, you have to take accountability for your impact on the lives of others. We have no problem accepting praise of how great an influence a person is in someone else's life, so there should be no problem accepting when one's own poor behavior has an effect [[a reaction) on someone else. And no one- not even Gordy and Ross- ever accuse Florence of starting to drink and "acting out" out of the blue and for no reason.

One of the MANY questions I would love to ask of Diana is did her own issues with alcoholism change the way she thought about the way Flo dealt with her issues back in the day? I would love to know if Diana now has new empathy for Flo, especially considering that Diana developed her issues with alcohol later in life as opposed to a very young woman.

BayouMotownMan
07-28-2018, 02:56 PM
That is not true and this is getting ridiculous. Florence Ballard was only 32 years old when she died. She still did not have that kind of maturity only gained from having a long life. She never wrote any letter to Berry Gordy and there was NO type of reconciliation with Diane Ross. That is bullshit that Ross fans made up years ago and try to keep that lie alive.

They are going to get to bottom of what really happened to Florence Ballard one way or another. One day if not today. It is not going to stop even after all of the principle players are long dead and gone and that includes Diana Ross and Berry Gordy so just get use to it or try to ignore it.

In any case the common perception is that Diana Ross did Florence Ballard in, back stabbed her and that is too widespread to be overturned now. People can try to re-write history and do a bunch of fluffy fantasized Broadway plays, but the belief that dirty pool was involve will remain! Florence Ballard's story is still referred to as the greatest tragedy in Rock history.

Wrong as usual. John Lennon or Elvis Presley would be the greatest tragedy in rock history. Flo had been out of the limelight for a number of years.

Ollie9
07-28-2018, 03:49 PM
Thanks Ollie. Don't misunderstand, I don't mean to imply that Diana- or Gordy- is responsible for anyone's life other than their own. But in being responsible for one's self, you have to take accountability for your impact on the lives of others. We have no problem accepting praise of how great an influence a person is in someone else's life, so there should be no problem accepting when one's own poor behavior has an effect [[a reaction) on someone else. And no one- not even Gordy and Ross- ever accuse Florence of starting to drink and "acting out" out of the blue and for no reason.

One of the MANY questions I would love to ask of Diana is did her own issues with alcoholism change the way she thought about the way Flo dealt with her issues back in the day? I would love to know if Diana now has new empathy for Flo, especially considering that Diana developed her issues with alcohol later in life as opposed to a very young woman.

In the 60's it was all about business not emotions. I'm sure it was a huge relief to Diana when Cindy joined and there was no longer the pressure of having to deal with Flo's then unpredictable behaviour.
I would like to think that the older Diana can now understand how we all respond to pressure in different ways and how one person responds to any given situation can have a huge emotional effect on others
Flo it seems was a reactive personality as opposed to a proactive one. If people were nice to her she responded accordingly, if they did not it was why should i give a f---k about anything.
If only for a moment she had pondered the bigger picture and the possibilties of what could and might be once Diana had moved on it could have been so very different

Roberta75
07-28-2018, 05:30 PM
Wrong as usual. John Lennon or Elvis Presley would be the greatest tragedy in rock history. Flo had been out of the limelight for a number of years.

Exactly correct plus you could add Jim Morrison or Kurt Cobain or Buddy Holly to that list. Flo was loved but is only referred to greatest tragedy in rock and roll history by a deranged Diane Ross basher.

midnightman
07-28-2018, 05:58 PM
Wrong as usual. John Lennon or Elvis Presley would be the greatest tragedy in rock history. Flo had been out of the limelight for a number of years.

Lennon, Elvis, Marvin, Michael, George Michael and Whitney could each qualify for "greatest rock tragedies" over a member of a singing group.

midnightman
07-28-2018, 06:04 PM
Quite true khansperac. The recently deceased Ray Gibson, Flo's cousin, stayed with Flo a lot. He was there in early 1970 after Diana made her Farewell performance. Diana came to Detroit to see her family and walked down the street to see Flo. They embraced, Ross picked on Flo's new blonde wig and said "oh no, you really are Blondie."

They went to Flo's bedroom and talked for quite some time. Ray said Flo never said what they talked about but it was all warmth between them that day.

Now, had I done this show do you really think this would have made the final cut?

Bottom line is Diana always treated Flo as an equal. She admired that woman ever since they were kids. Did people really expect Flo to hold a grudge over PETTY KID STUFF? Because that's all that was. By the time they had left the Supremes, these two had become young women and parents dealing with lives in their own ways. I'm sure had Flo not died from the blood clot, she would be thriving right now and that was a fact. As her late sister Maxine said, "she never gave up". That's who Florence was.

https://lastfm-img2.akamaized.net/i/u/770x0/3c4503f4332d492b86a8fa8c93257446.jpg

PeaceNHarmony
07-28-2018, 07:40 PM
Exactly correct plus you could add Jim Morrison or Kurt Cobain or Buddy Holly to that list. Flo was loved but is only referred to greatest tragedy in rock and roll history by a deranged Diane Ross basher.
Unfortunately 'yes' all around. The vultures pick Florence's bones with nary a mention of the good parts of her contributions. It's endlessly fascinating that they focus on Ballard while stepping over the corpses of other M'twners who also were released from their groups which, just coincidentally, were not lead by Diana Ross.

marybrewster
07-28-2018, 09:14 PM
I do too but Mary Wilson loves to talk about Diane and the Supremes. I LOL everuytime she says "we are sisters and we love each other very much" LOL

Girl don't start! Lol.

Roberta75
07-28-2018, 09:44 PM
girl don't start! Lol.


lololololololololol

Roberta75
07-28-2018, 09:45 PM
Bottom line is Diana always treated Flo as an equal. She admired that woman ever since they were kids. Did people really expect Flo to hold a grudge over PETTY KID STUFF? Because that's all that was. By the time they had left the Supremes, these two had become young women and parents dealing with lives in their own ways. I'm sure had Flo not died from the blood clot, she would be thriving right now and that was a fact. As her late sister Maxine said, "she never gave up". That's who Florence was.

https://lastfm-img2.akamaized.net/i/u/770x0/3c4503f4332d492b86a8fa8c93257446.jpg

Preach midnightman Preach.

thanxal
07-28-2018, 11:46 PM
U It's endlessly fascinating that they focus on Ballard while stepping over the corpses of other M'twners who also were released from their groups which, just coincidentally, were not lead by Diana Ross.
Now THAT's something to preach about.

CoolKatz
07-29-2018, 06:57 AM
Imo, it's great to see anything Supremes [[or Motown). It might well be tabloid sensationalism, but perhaps this will garner some interest after all of these years. Once they test the waters with the Supremes it very well might open the way for a Paul Williams or a Shorty Long story.

Regarding who was the greatest rock tragedy. It's all relative. Kurt Cobain's fans will no doubt feel his story is the most tragic and the same for Elvis Presley etc. Each case is very different and should not be compared. Since this is a Supremes thread I think it's appropriate to give shine to Florence Ballard.

I feel the negativity with the Supremes imo comes from the desire to keep certain key players held in a certain light. The truth is they were all human and anything but perfect. One was no greater than or better than the next. Did some ugly things occur? I'm sure it did. Was there some nastiness and backstabbing etc. of course there was, but again these are humans. One thing to keep in mind is, those three women[[the original Supremes) are forever linked together and we would't have one without the other.

Even when it comes downto the "truth" it will always be someone's opinion, we all see things based on where we are and what we know at the time.

PeaceNHarmony
07-29-2018, 08:10 AM
Now THAT's something to preach about.
As you know, they couldn't shiv two gits about Florence Ballard. It's all about assigning erroneous blame to someone they dislike.

Roberta75
07-29-2018, 01:29 PM
Girl don't start! Lol.

marybrewster watch at the 2.28 mark. Miss Wilson goes into her "Diane and I are sisters, still friends and talk occasionaly" LOLOLOLOLOL

http://www.fox2detroit.com/good-day/weekend/motown-review-with-mary-wilson-of-the-supremes

Boogiedown
07-29-2018, 02:18 PM
Bottom line is Diana always treated Flo as an equal........

Would that include when Diana had her own separate dressing room? [[see YouTube post earlier in thread ) Sort of like separate but equal I guess?

Mark Desjardines
07-29-2018, 02:55 PM
Is this program going go be aired in Canada?

khansperac
07-29-2018, 03:15 PM
Would that include when Diana had her own seperate dressing room? [[see YouTube post earlier in thread ) Sort of like seperate but equal I guess? I would have requested a separate dressing room also. Diana said in an interview on the Oprah Winfrey show that it was very difficult in the dressing room during those years, they ignored her and talked about her when her back wasn’t even turned.

Boogiedown
07-29-2018, 03:37 PM
Very good. Separate ,-with good reason-, but equal as I said.

RanRan79
07-29-2018, 03:45 PM
Regarding who was the greatest rock tragedy. It's all relative. Kurt Cobain's fans will no doubt feel his story is the most tragic and the same for Elvis Presley etc. Each case is very different and should not be compared. Since this is a Supremes thread I think it's appropriate to give shine to Florence Ballard.

I feel the negativity with the Supremes imo comes from the desire to keep certain key players held in a certain light. The truth is they were all human and anything but perfect. One was no greater than or better than the next. Did some ugly things occur? I'm sure it did. Was there some nastiness and backstabbing etc. of course there was, but again these are humans. One thing to keep in mind is, those three women[[the original Supremes) are forever linked together and we would't have one without the other.

Even when it comes downto the "truth" it will always be someone's opinion, we all see things based on where we are and what we know at the time.

Talk about preaching! I agree 1000 percent. It's sad to see Flo's death compared to someone else's, but not surprising. Folks in this forum will use anything in their arsenal to throw at the memory and legacies of the three original Supremes. New low.

RanRan79
07-29-2018, 04:02 PM
I would have requested a separate dressing room also. Diana said in an interview on the Oprah Winfrey show that it was very difficult in the dressing room during those years, they ignored her and talked about her when her back wasn’t even turned.

Diana was a wannabe diva. She lived for any moment where she could be exalted above someone else, set apart as special. No surprise to me that she would jump at the chance to have her own dressing room. Personally, I find it hard to believe that by 1966 if Flo or Mary had been offered their own dressing room that they wouldn't have taken it. What pissed them off was that Diana got it. [[And they should have been pissed. I would've said "if she wants her own dressing room, I want my own too and if I don't get it, then she can't get it either" and then I would've proceeded to be all up in Miss Ross' dressing room every chance I got. I would change clothes in the "Supremes" dressing room and then I'd do my makeup in Miss Ross' dressing room or vice versa. She would've never had that room to herself.)

But again, this is where I blame Gordy. Diana did what young girls her age do. But he was the boss, the buck always stopped with him. Gordy was no dummy. He knew group solidarity and unity was essential to success. But he thought of Diana as indispensable and the others as throwaways. So for him it was more important to keep Diana happy and less so for the others. When Diana complains of the girls basically treating her like crap, she has herself to blame because she campaigned for all of the things that pissed them off. But ultimately Gordy was the problem. If Ross wanted her own dressing room, they all should've gotten their own. If not, then they all have to share. But I can't imagine they were playing venues at this point that couldn't provide three separate dressing rooms. Gordy was making a point and he used Ross to do it. Sadly, he is seen as the innocent in the situation by the Diana haters but everything that happened to the Supremes was his decision.

blackguy69
07-29-2018, 04:02 PM
Talk about preaching! I agree 1000 percent. It's sad to see Flo's death compared to someone else's, but not surprising. Folks in this forum will use anything in their arsenal to throw at the memory and legacies of the three original Supremes. New low.
i agree with you. I’ve said this before some fans are never going to let it go. Whatever Diana and Mary have said in the past is their right. We may not like it but it was what they were feeling at that time . Both of them are human and responded according to how they felt. It isn’t right or wrong just what it is. Unless you were with them on the day to day interactions, no one here should be judging them on what they say or how they react.

RanRan79
07-29-2018, 04:09 PM
i agree with you. I’ve said this before some fans are never going to let it go. Whatever Diana and Mary have said in the past is their right. We may not like it but it was what they were feeling at that time . Both of them are human and responded according to how they felt. It isn’t right or wrong just what it is. Unless you were with them on the day to day interactions, no one here should be judging them on what they say or how they react.

Agreed. It's one thing to hindsight analyze the goings on...I do it all the time as you know...but the self righteousness among the fans is ridiculous. Of course we've been down this road a million times, so it's really beating a dead horse, but believe it or not it's still amazing to see it rear it's ugly head sometimes. Some of these folks get into the whole thing too personal. As I once had to tell you know who, and it bears repeating: YOU ARE NOT MARY WILSON. WHAT HAPPENED TO MARY WILSON DID NOT HAPPEN TO YOU. [[Please replace the name of Mary Wilson with either Florence Ballard or Diana Ross, as necessary.)

luke
07-29-2018, 06:49 PM
https://therecoup.com/

Roberta75
07-29-2018, 06:56 PM
Agreed. It's one thing to hindsight analyze the goings on...I do it all the time as you know...but the self righteousness among the fans is ridiculous. Of course we've been down this road a million times, so it's really beating a dead horse, but believe it or not it's still amazing to see it rear it's ugly head sometimes. Some of these folks get into the whole thing too personal. As I once had to tell you know who, and it bears repeating: YOU ARE NOT MARY WILSON. WHAT HAPPENED TO MARY WILSON DID NOT HAPPEN TO YOU. [[Please replace the name of Mary Wilson with either Florence Ballard or Diana Ross, as necessary.)

Couldnt have said it better myself dear RanRan.

PeaceNHarmony
07-29-2018, 07:14 PM
I would have requested a separate dressing room also. Diana said in an interview on the Oprah Winfrey show that it was very difficult in the dressing room during those years, they ignored her and talked about her when her back wasn’t even turned.
Of course, and why not? After all, additionally, who did the public hear on the radio and who did the public come to see?

Jimi LaLumia
07-29-2018, 08:52 PM
wow this is on in 9 minutes.I'm going to watch it on "Reelz" which I didn't even know was a thing

franjoy56
07-29-2018, 08:57 PM
The supremes when i went to see them in 66 i expected to see three supremes which i did and not one lead singer.

Jimi LaLumia
07-29-2018, 08:58 PM
just peeked at the conversations above about 'dressing rooms'..lol..hysterical..literally...by the way, it's common knowledge that Gordy encouraged/engineered the division between Ross and her pals.. he wanted her solo as early as 1966, I remember reading about in 1966 as a teen.. so blame Dr. Frankenstein, but then, if you did, you'd have to not blame her..the kid... so knock yourselves out.. I'm gonna watch the Flo thing

midnightman
07-29-2018, 09:09 PM
Didn't Flo once divulge on that? What's hilarious is people think they can time travel to 1966 like they were members of the Supremes. LOL like Flo already mentioned this, that wasn't new news.

https://media1.tenor.com/images/04bb152195bcbc9d445dafe98bf9691e/tenor.gif?itemid=7165463

marv2
07-29-2018, 09:18 PM
just peeked at the conversations above about 'dressing rooms'..lol..hysterical..literally...by the way, it's common knowledge that Gordy encouraged/engineered the division between Ross and her pals.. he wanted her solo as early as 1966, I remember reading about in 1966 as a teen.. so blame Dr. Frankenstein, but then, if you did, you'd have to not blame her..the kid... so knock yourselves out.. I'm gonna watch the Flo thing

Jimi, could you tape it?

marv2
07-29-2018, 09:19 PM
The supremes when i went to see them in 66 i expected to see three supremes which i did and not one lead singer.

Fran, could you tape it?

franjoy56
07-29-2018, 09:28 PM
Ill look f a vhs tape

marv2
07-29-2018, 09:57 PM
Ill look f a vhs tape

Ok. Thanks Fran!

blackguy69
07-29-2018, 11:26 PM
Watching this as I type

RanRan79
07-30-2018, 12:07 AM
Watched the autopsy show. It wasn't as bad as I thought it was gonna be. They didn't come with no crazy conspiracies, as far as giving those ideas legitimacy. Ultimately the "doctor" concludes that Florence had an undiagnosed heart condition, which I think is certainly possible. He also touched on that brown cereal like stuff mentioned in her autopsy that upset Maxine so much. Basically it's highly likely that it was nothing more than actual undigested cereal. I wish Maxine was still around to hear that as I'm sure it would've taken a load off of her mind.

The worst part of the program was the erroneous information. For one, it's stated that Florence is 5'11 several times. I don't know if that's recorded in her medical records, but I call bullcrap. I've always read that she was 5'7, and while she was always obviously taller than Diana and Mary, they weren't dwarfed beside her. So I'm not sure where 5'11 is coming from.

But the inaccuracy that boiled my blood the most was the misinformation that Florence visited Mary and the Supremes the summer before she died. Flo actually went out there in 1974. But that wasn't the worst. The narrator and the doctor kept mentioning that Flo never went onstage again and that by the time she died she didn't want to sing again. Of course we all know that roughly six months before she died Florence sang at a benefit concert for a rape victim. I went into this program understanding what I might watch but ultimately it still pissed me off that either the producers didn't exhaust their resources of information or they chose to rewrite the history...to serve what purpose, I do not know.

Saddest part of the show was Nicole recalling when her mother fell ill. Obviously the pain is still very present.

blackguy69
07-30-2018, 12:26 AM
I noticed some of the inaccuracies

longtimefan
07-30-2018, 12:31 AM
Watched the autopsy show. It wasn't as bad as I thought it was gonna be. They didn't come with no crazy conspiracies, as far as giving those ideas legitimacy. Ultimately the "doctor" concludes that Florence had an undiagnosed heart condition, which I think is certainly possible. He also touched on that brown cereal like stuff mentioned in her autopsy that upset Maxine so much. Basically it's highly likely that it was nothing more than actual undigested cereal. I wish Maxine was still around to hear that as I'm sure it would've taken a load off of her mind.

The worst part of the program was the erroneous information. For one, it's stated that Florence is 5'11 several times. I don't know if that's recorded in her medical records, but I call bullcrap. I've always read that she was 5'7, and while she was always obviously taller than Diana and Mary, they weren't dwarfed beside her. So I'm not sure where 5'11 is coming from.

But the inaccuracy that boiled my blood the most was the misinformation that Florence visited Mary and the Supremes the summer before she died. Flo actually went out there in 1974. But that wasn't the worst. The narrator and the doctor kept mentioning that Flo never went onstage again and that by the time she died she didn't want to sing again. Of course we all know that roughly six months before she died Florence sang at a benefit concert for a rape victim. I went into this program understanding what I might watch but ultimately it still pissed me off that either the producers didn't exhaust their resources of information or they chose to rewrite the history...to serve what purpose, I do not know.

Saddest part of the show was Nicole recalling when her mother fell ill. Obviously the pain is still very present.

Excellent review, Ranran! Tabloid, sensationalized journalism. Prayerfully, her family does not find this discomforting. I was embarrassed watching it.

franjoy56
07-30-2018, 01:24 AM
Besides the date errors i thought it was well put together especially the ptsd isues from her unresolved rape . domestic abuse putting more strain on her heart. The constsnt attention on their brutal schedule pnemonia in 66 leading t hospital stay anfc5 friction w gordy and her drastic obsession with being put out of the supremes .

PeaceNHarmony
07-30-2018, 08:19 AM
I've always wondered if [[or why not) any faith-based groups in the area assisted Florence. Was that addressed?

franjoy56
07-30-2018, 11:59 AM
No it was not. In the 60s and 70s there was very help for t problems flo was experiencing. Reaching out to henry ford hospital came too late

greg jones
07-30-2018, 01:20 PM
I think most people came to the conclusion on their own that given 1960's and early 1970's, treating heart disease issues were not as well addressed as they are today. Even open heart surgeries were in the beginning stages. So yes, I very well agree that Flo might have had a heart disorder that wasn't understood back then.

The presenter did NOT mention if heart disease ran in the Ballard family that Flo's heredity also played a part.

Plus I agree that waiting for Flo's relatives to assist Nicole probably did more damage in waiting. Things like calling 911 for help didn't really exist back then unless the normal telephone operator was skilled in calling emergency for help.

vgalindo
07-30-2018, 01:30 PM
I think most people came to the conclusion on their own that given 1960's and early 1970's, treating heart disease issues were not as well addressed as they are today. Even open heart surgeries were in the beginning stages. So yes, I very well agree that Flo might have had a heart disorder that wasn't understood back then.

The presenter did NOT mention if heart disease ran in the Ballard family that Flo's heredity also played a part.

Plus I agree that waiting for Flo's relatives to assist Nicole probably did more damage in waiting. Things like calling 911 for help didn't really exist back then unless the normal telephone operator was skilled in calling emergency for help.
He did say both of Flos parents did not die of heart problems.

PeaceNHarmony
07-30-2018, 01:44 PM
So it looks as if this program has proven once and for all that it was not mal/mistreatment by any individuals that led to Florence's untimely passing but rather a predisposed heart disease that was not diagnosable at that time. It's good the program has settled the matter beyond dispute.

greg jones
07-30-2018, 01:54 PM
He did say both of Flos parents did not die of heart problems.

Thank you, I must have missed that.

thanxal
07-30-2018, 02:26 PM
I think most people came to the conclusion on their own that given 1960's and early 1970's, treating heart disease issues were not as well addressed as they are today. Even open heart surgeries were in the beginning stages. So yes, I very well agree that Flo might have had a heart disorder that wasn't understood back then.

The presenter did NOT mention if heart disease ran in the Ballard family that Flo's heredity also played a part.

Plus I agree that waiting for Flo's relatives to assist Nicole probably did more damage in waiting. Things like calling 911 for help didn't really exist back then unless the normal telephone operator was skilled in calling emergency for help.

Wasn't she a heavy smoker? I can't recall where I read that she was, but if true, smoking has long been established to lead to heart disease.

midnightman
07-30-2018, 02:55 PM
That's the only part I don't like about these documentaries: their inaccuracies. When Florence joined the Supremes at Disneyland that summer of 1974, she had yet to get that settlement after suing her lawyers for negligence and got that new house and she performed that year and was planning a comeback.

That said, sounds like they cleared something up like they did Elvis. Both had mad heart issues!

marv2
07-30-2018, 03:06 PM
That's the only part I don't like about these documentaries: their inaccuracies. When Florence joined the Supremes at Disneyland that summer of 1974, she had yet to get that settlement after suing her lawyers for negligence and got that new house and she performed that year and was planning a comeback.

That said, sounds like they cleared something up like they did Elvis. Both had mad heart issues!


It wasn't Disneyland, it was Magic Mountain. Gotta watch those inaccuracies.......hehehehehehe!

midnightman
07-30-2018, 03:17 PM
It wasn't Disneyland, it was Magic Mountain. Gotta watch those inaccuracies.......hehehehehehe!

Isn't Magic Mountain AT Disneyland???

That's not wrong at all LOL

Boogiedown
07-30-2018, 04:07 PM
It wasn't Disneyland, it was Magic Mountain. Gotta watch those inaccuracies.......hehehehehehe!

Lol! Touché!

johnny_raven
07-30-2018, 04:57 PM
Isn't Magic Mountain AT Disneyland???

That's not wrong at all LOL

No, Magic mountain is a Six Flags resort in Santa Clarita. Disneyland is in Anaheim ... about 1 ½ hour drive from each other [[if the traffic is decent).

marv2
07-30-2018, 05:03 PM
Isn't Magic Mountain AT Disneyland???

That's not wrong at all LOL


If you asked Mary, "Well weren't you playing at Disneyland?" You'll get a confused look and then a rolling of the eyes because she will not know what the Hell you're talking about. They were at Magic Mountain, that's the name of the venue. LOL!

marv2
07-30-2018, 05:04 PM
No, Magic mountain is a Six Flags resort in Santa Clarita. Disneyland is in Anaheim ... about 1 ½ hour drive from each other [[if the traffic is decent).

Thank you Johnny Raven.

marv2
07-30-2018, 05:05 PM
Lol! Touché!


hehehehehehehehehehe!

sup_fan
07-30-2018, 05:21 PM
Isn't Magic Mountain AT Disneyland???

That's not wrong at all LOL

i think you're referring to Space Mountain lol ;)

midnightman
07-30-2018, 05:38 PM
i think you're referring to Space Mountain lol ;)

HAHAHA

OK, well anyway, my original point still stands. ;)

It's a MINOR nitpick, mmkay guys?

floyjoy678
07-30-2018, 06:27 PM
Wasn't she a heavy smoker? I can't recall where I read that she was, but if true, smoking has long been established to lead to heart disease.

I've seen several photos of Flo with a cigarette in her hand. All three of them smoked heavily from what it seems like.

lucky2012
07-30-2018, 06:50 PM
No, Magic mountain is a Six Flags resort in Santa Clarita. Disneyland is in Anaheim ... about 1 ½ hour drive from each other [[if the traffic is decent).
Quite right. Opposite ends of LA metro. The first time I saw the "new" Supremes [[JMC, 1971) was indeed at Disneyland and I believe in the shadow of Space Mountain. :) It was probably way too soon for Flo to have been visiting them. :[[

midnightman
07-30-2018, 09:38 PM
I've seen several photos of Flo with a cigarette in her hand. All three of them smoked heavily from what it seems like.

I would conclude the same. Nothing too unique about Flo's smoking.

antceleb12
07-30-2018, 10:17 PM
I think most people came to the conclusion on their own that given 1960's and early 1970's, treating heart disease issues were not as well addressed as they are today. Even open heart surgeries were in the beginning stages. So yes, I very well agree that Flo might have had a heart disorder that wasn't understood back then.

The presenter did NOT mention if heart disease ran in the Ballard family that Flo's heredity also played a part.

Plus I agree that waiting for Flo's relatives to assist Nicole probably did more damage in waiting. Things like calling 911 for help didn't really exist back then unless the normal telephone operator was skilled in calling emergency for help.

Here's what I find interesting. We all know Florence drank and smoked. We all know Florence had difficulty managing her weight. That being said, even with her alcoholism, there were others who drank FAR worse and far longer than Florence did and lived longer [[before either beating it or drinking themselves to death via cirrhosis), and while Florence smoked, she certainly wasn't - from what we know - a smoking chimney. Second, Florence may have struggled with her weight, but again, her weight issues were minuscule as compared with those of other people. Photos from the last couple years of her life hardly reveal someone who had let themselves go - certainly not like Elvis. It does not seem plausible to me that Florence's early [[and rather sudden) death were the sole result of her drinking and/or weight issues - at least not without a third, underlying factor.

Here's where blood pressure and heart disease come in. I believe Florence's death certificate states she died from coronary thrombosis, which is a blood clot inside the heart. While heart disease usually presents physiologically noticeable symptoms and is detectable earlier on, blood clots can build up asymptomatically over a long period of time, but its presence usually doesn't present itself until is causes further complications, such as a stroke or an aneurysm. It's a silent killer. While I believe the drinking, smoking, and battle with her weight certainly was not good for her heart, I find it hard to believe that Florence could have all of a sudden - two months before she died - started suffering from a heart condition. Grant it, I of course could be wrong, but what makes more sense to me is that any heart problems she was suffering from was a result of a pre-existing problem such as a blood clot. Certainly the alcoholism and weight fluctuations helped speed up the process, but I've always found it very odd that in all of the reports of Florence's later years we have, nobody mentions that Florence was suffering from any physical ailments until roughly two months or so before she died.

Florence's family reported that in her last couple of months, she suffered from high fevers, was hot all of the time, and was constantly thirsty, among other symptoms. These are classic symptoms of unmaintained high blood pressure. I believe Florence was on medication to help control her blood pressure, but if a clot had already formed, it would have trumped the medication. My grandmother suffered from high blood pressure, as well, took medication for it, but died unexpectedly from an aneurysm that had built up at an early age. Silent and sudden killer. Unfortunately, take out the alcoholism and weight issues, I think Florence would have died at a young age regardless, especially with the rather immature knowledge we had back then about high blood pressure and heart disease as pre-existing conditions. I don't believe her firing, depression, or even her alcoholism were primary factors at all. I think the more plausible explanation is that she was predisposed to a genetic condition, developed a clot that built up over time, and died from something that would have killed her regardless if she had maintained a happy, successful singing career or not.

TheMotownManiac
07-30-2018, 11:23 PM
Diana was a wannabe diva. She lived for any moment where she could be exalted above someone else, set apart as special. No surprise to me that she would jump at the chance to have her own dressing room. Personally, I find it hard to believe that by 1966 if Flo or Mary had been offered their own dressing room that they wouldn't have taken it. What pissed them off was that Diana got it. [[And they should have been pissed. I would've said "if she wants her own dressing room, I want my own too and if I don't get it, then she can't get it either" and then I would've proceeded to be all up in Miss Ross' dressing room every chance I got. I would change clothes in the "Supremes" dressing room and then I'd do my makeup in Miss Ross' dressing room or vice versa. She would've never had that room to herself.)

But again, this is where I blame Gordy. Diana did what young girls her age do. But he was the boss, the buck always stopped with him. Gordy was no dummy. He knew group solidarity and unity was essential to success. But he thought of Diana as indispensable and the others as throwaways. So for him it was more important to keep Diana happy and less so for the others. When Diana complains of the girls basically treating her like crap, she has herself to blame because she campaigned for all of the things that pissed them off. But ultimately Gordy was the problem. If Ross wanted her own dressing room, they all should've gotten their own. If not, then they all have to share. But I can't imagine they were playing venues at this point that couldn't provide three separate dressing rooms. Gordy was making a point and he used Ross to do it. Sadly, he is seen as the innocent in the situation by the Diana haters but everything that happened to the Supremes was his decision.
I’m A little disappointed in your comments about the dressing rooms. Would you really be that bratty in an already tense group situation? I doubt very much that the separate dressing rooms were at diva ploy, but rather to ease the tension‘s before shows. Diana was a nervous wreck as it is, having to do two and three shows at night and argue and fight and have tenseness Before during and after shows would just exacerbate the situation, and quite frankly, be a stupid thing to do. Most television studios have plenty of dressing rooms for each to have their own , Of course many theaters do as well. I’m sure that if Mary and flow or Mary and Cindy wanted separate dressing rooms they would’ve been able to have them but that doesn’t necessarily mean they wanted Them. After Outer Drive, when Flo came back she wasn’t speaking to either mary or Diana…… I did not travel with them to and from shows. Regardless of what one person on this forum says, Mary was just as complicit with Flo’s ouster as diana was……Some think she was even worse as it was Mary who turned on Flo at the meeting When Flo was expecting Mary to stand up for her. As far as Diana having our own dressing room, if the vibes weren’t good in a community dressing room it made sense for her to have her own so she could prepare emotionally and mentally to do the show…… After all she had 90% of the work load. She was already under 100 pounds, separate dressing room was the smart thing to do……

RanRan79
07-31-2018, 09:42 AM
I’m A little disappointed in your comments about the dressing rooms. Would you really be that bratty in an already tense group situation? I doubt very much that the separate dressing rooms were at diva ploy, but rather to ease the tension‘s before shows. Diana was a nervous wreck as it is, having to do two and three shows at night and argue and fight and have tenseness Before during and after shows would just exacerbate the situation, and quite frankly, be a stupid thing to do. Most television studios have plenty of dressing rooms for each to have their own , Of course many theaters do as well. I’m sure that if Mary and flow or Mary and Cindy wanted separate dressing rooms they would’ve been able to have them but that doesn’t necessarily mean they wanted Them. After Outer Drive, when Flo came back she wasn’t speaking to either mary or Diana…… I did not travel with them to and from shows. Regardless of what one person on this forum says, Mary was just as complicit with Flo’s ouster as diana was……Some think she was even worse as it was Mary who turned on Flo at the meeting When Flo was expecting Mary to stand up for her. As far as Diana having our own dressing room, if the vibes weren’t good in a community dressing room it made sense for her to have her own so she could prepare emotionally and mentally to do the show…… After all she had 90% of the work load. She was already under 100 pounds, separate dressing room was the smart thing to do……

Yeah, I'm not buying it. I know the mind and world of teenage/young adult women very well, and the descriptions of Diana even in the Primettes days SCREAMS a girl who would've loved to have a separate dressing room or separate anything that further let the world know that, sure she's a member of the Supremes, but she's THE Supreme. By your logic, if things had gotten cool first with Flo on one side and Diana and Mary on the other, Florence would've been given her own dressing room. No way. That dressing room thing was seen as a further way to separate Diana from the other two in the minds of anyone working behind the scenes, lest there be confusion. After all, if the dressing room wasn't the issue, couldn't Gordy have just gone to Flo and Mary and said stop making life for the lead singer so difficult?

And I don't know if I buy that Diana asked for her own dressing room. It wouldn't surprise me one bit if this was another one of Gordy's ideas and Diana jumped at the chance. As I'm sure the other girls would've done too. [[I can imagine that being three young women in a single dressing room before and after a show- especially after a show when you're hot, sweaty and stinky- the idea of a dressing room to one's self would be a dream, but only one member got the chance and that's not fair.)

And yes, I would've been that petty. Diana Ross surely was no stranger to petty behavior, so why should Flo and Mary have taken the high road?

Circa 1824
07-31-2018, 10:20 AM
Flo's daughter was drugged up or is she depressed ?

midnightman
07-31-2018, 04:42 PM
The dressing room thing. Look, these were three young women barely out of high school. Also I'm QUITE sure the Supremes weren't the only act with dressing room issues...

It's possible Gordy thought it was best to separate them. Flo hinted at it during her interviews with Peter. But she indicated ALL THREE had separate dressing rooms and hotel rooms.

As she said, "it seems like we're splitting in that matter".

https://jazzinphoto.files.wordpress.com/2013/01/usa-new-york-city-1965-the-supremes-preparing-for-a-show-at-the-apollo-theater.jpg

floyjoy678
07-31-2018, 05:01 PM
I don't know if I buy the separate dressing rooms thing. If it happened it was after 1967. The Orient tour footage shows all three of them in the same dressing room multiple times.

Also from different accounts, the night of Flo's last show all of three of the girls were in the same dressing room when that all went down [[some versions say Mary wasn't there, just Diana and Flo).

midnightman
07-31-2018, 06:11 PM
I don't know if I buy the separate dressing rooms thing. If it happened it was after 1967. The Orient tour footage shows all three of them in the same dressing room multiple times.

Also from different accounts, the night of Flo's last show all of three of the girls were in the same dressing room when that all went down [[some versions say Mary wasn't there, just Diana and Flo).

There IS a photo of Diana and Flo sharing a bedroom at the Apollo:

https://jazzinphoto.files.wordpress.com/2013/01/usa-new-york-city-1965-the-supremes-at-the-apollo-theater.jpg

TheMotownManiac
07-31-2018, 08:31 PM
Yeah, I'm not buying it. I know the mind and world of teenage/young adult women very well, and the descriptions of Diana even in the Primettes days SCREAMS a girl who would've loved to have a separate dressing room or separate anything that further let the world know that, sure she's a member of the Supremes, but she's THE Supreme. By your logic, if things had gotten cool first with Flo on one side and Diana and Mary on the other, Florence would've been given her own dressing room. No way. That dressing room thing was seen as a further way to separate Diana from the other two in the minds of anyone working behind the scenes, lest there be confusion. After all, if the dressing room wasn't the issue, couldn't Gordy have just gone to Flo and Mary and said stop making life for the lead singer so difficult?

And I don't know if I buy that Diana asked for her own dressing room. It wouldn't surprise me one bit if this was another one of Gordy's ideas and Diana jumped at the chance. As I'm sure the other girls would've done too. [[I can imagine that being three young women in a single dressing room before and after a show- especially after a show when you're hot, sweaty and stinky- the idea of a dressing room to one's self would be a dream, but only one member got the chance and that's not fair.)

And yes, I would've been that petty. Diana Ross surely was no stranger to petty behavior, so why should Flo and Mary have taken the high road?

I agree that Diana might have jumped at the chance, but regardless of If she wanted one or not, the smart thing to do, with the group not getting along, for the good of the show, was to separate them… I don’t see how you can argue that.

PeaceNHarmony
08-01-2018, 05:57 AM
Is the Florence Ballard movie coming out soon? Someone here posts about it frequently.

Circa 1824
08-01-2018, 08:13 AM
Diana Ross was the act. If Diana was hot that night, the show was hot. If Diana was cold that night, the show was cold. Diana deserved her own private dressing room if that contributed towards her giving a better performance. After all, she was the act.

RanRan79
08-01-2018, 08:58 AM
The dressing room thing. Look, these were three young women barely out of high school. Also I'm QUITE sure the Supremes weren't the only act with dressing room issues...

It's possible Gordy thought it was best to separate them. Flo hinted at it during her interviews with Peter. But she indicated ALL THREE had separate dressing rooms and hotel rooms.


Once they hit the big time they always had separate hotel rooms, but I don't recall ever hearing that they each had separate dressing rooms. I think Gordy thought it best to separate them also, but not because of the friction. I think he did it as a sign of Diana's status even within the group. Plus Mary and Flo and others behind the scenes have said that they thought Gordy intentionally alienated Diana from Mary and Flo because it was actually easier to control her.

RanRan79
08-01-2018, 09:02 AM
I don't know if I buy the separate dressing rooms thing. If it happened it was after 1967. The Orient tour footage shows all three of them in the same dressing room multiple times.

Also from different accounts, the night of Flo's last show all of three of the girls were in the same dressing room when that all went down [[some versions say Mary wasn't there, just Diana and Flo).

I'm assuming there were times when separate dressing rooms may not have always been an option, depending on where they played and how many other artists were booked, particularly when doing television shows. In regards to Flo's last night with the group, so many different versions of the night have been told that it's hard to pin down the facts, but the stories that stick out in my mind are always taking place "backstage", whether that's a dressing room or the general backstage area, I don't know.

RanRan79
08-01-2018, 09:12 AM
I agree that Diana might have jumped at the chance, but regardless of If she wanted one or not, the smart thing to do, with the group not getting along, for the good of the show, was to separate them… I don’t see how you can argue that.

If your point is that it would've been a wise decision on Gordy's part to separate them due to the friction, there is no argument against that. Set aside the fact [[my opinion anyway) that Gordy was the cause of the friction in the first place, if he was really about helping the situation, why give one girl a dressing room over the others? Surely he would've been smart enough to know that while this may stop some of the before and after show bickering, it would not put an end to it in general and would only increase it, since young women have a tendency to be jealous when another woman seems to be getting more of something than she. [[And ladies I realize I'm generalizing so I'll take my chastisements as they come.) If Gordy wanted to ease the tension then why not give all three girls their own dressing room? That's the argument I'm making. I don't see how anyone can argue that giving one girl her own anything vs the other two makes any sense when the folks in charge should be doing everything they can to make the ship run as smoothly as possible. There is no smooth sailing when you have three young ladies and one is getting special treatment. 1966, 1776, 2016...no matter the year, young women that age tend to react to the situation in the same way. Gordy knew that.

midnightman
08-01-2018, 10:32 AM
Once they hit the big time they always had separate hotel rooms, but I don't recall ever hearing that they each had separate dressing rooms. I think Gordy thought it best to separate them also, but not because of the friction. I think he did it as a sign of Diana's status even within the group. Plus Mary and Flo and others behind the scenes have said that they thought Gordy intentionally alienated Diana from Mary and Flo because it was actually easier to control her.

Yeah, sounds like they were concerned their friend was being brainwashed by Gordy. I mean if you put yourselves in their shoes, you can kinda see where all three were coming from. You got two members who seem more independent and another who was desperate to be somebody that they were willing to sacrifice a lot even if it meant alienating from her friends even if that wasn't the intention. Happens with a lot of groups who have that stand out member or a lead singer. By setting Diana apart, Gordy was intentionally fracturing what had been a really close bond between three best friends. The music business is dirty.

RanRan79
08-01-2018, 10:48 AM
The music business is dirty, especially to young girls...young Black girls...young Black girls in the 1960s. There's so much misogyny in the Supremes' story and apparently even among the fans. Diana, Flo and Mary catch a lot of hell for things that happened a million years ago, but 99 percent of the folks who criticize the Supremes for whatever reason, seem to go silent when it comes to Berry, and if not silent they actually back him up. Who cares about how people get treated as long as we get that great Motown sound. We're a sick society folks.:[[

jobucats
08-01-2018, 12:03 PM
The music business is dirty, especially to young girls...young Black girls...young Black girls in the 1960s. There's so much misogyny in the Supremes' story and apparently even among the fans. Diana, Flo and Mary catch a lot of hell for things that happened a million years ago, but 99 percent of the folks who criticize the Supremes for whatever reason, seem to go silent when it comes to Berry, and if not silent they actually back him up. Who cares about how people get treated as long as we get that great Motown sound. We're a sick society folks.:[[

This is a great perspective, RanRan79.

midnightman
08-01-2018, 01:26 PM
The music business is dirty, especially to young girls...young Black girls...young Black girls in the 1960s. There's so much misogyny in the Supremes' story and apparently even among the fans. Diana, Flo and Mary catch a lot of hell for things that happened a million years ago, but 99 percent of the folks who criticize the Supremes for whatever reason, seem to go silent when it comes to Berry, and if not silent they actually back him up. Who cares about how people get treated as long as we get that great Motown sound. We're a sick society folks.:[[

Yeah you see the defenses he gets while Mary, Diana and Flo gets nothing but criticism. Instead of uplifting a group that broke racial and musical barriers, we always shame one of them. Berry Gordy did a NUMBER on all three of them and not to mention the other female Motown acts in his roster yet the women get shamed for the same things that are seen as "normal" when it's male acts like the Temptations, who arguably had FAR more drama than anything going on in the Supremes' backyard.

And in the end, you see how Flo, Mary and Diana left with when they left [[or had to leave, in Flo's case) Motown... a group helps make your label one of the most successful recording labels in history and that's how you repay them? Just $100,000-250,000?!

PeaceNHarmony
08-01-2018, 03:44 PM
I don't know if I buy the separate dressing rooms thing. If it happened it was after 1967. The Orient tour footage shows all three of them in the same dressing room multiple times.

Also from different accounts, the night of Flo's last show all of three of the girls were in the same dressing room when that all went down [[some versions say Mary wasn't there, just Diana and Flo).
... I can't imagine who would state that Mary wasn't there ... :rolleyes:

floyjoy678
08-01-2018, 04:00 PM
... I can't imagine who would state that Mary wasn't there ... :rolleyes:

It was in Taborellis latest book on Diana. To paraphrase he said Mary bolted straight for her hotel room after the show while Flo and Diana got into it in the dressing room. Berry then phoned Flo the next day and told her if she goes on stage he'll throw her off.

RanRan79
08-01-2018, 04:40 PM
Yeah you see the defenses he gets while Mary, Diana and Flo gets nothing but criticism. Instead of uplifting a group that broke racial and musical barriers, we always shame one of them. Berry Gordy did a NUMBER on all three of them and not to mention the other female Motown acts in his roster yet the women get shamed for the same things that are seen as "normal" when it's male acts like the Temptations, who arguably had FAR more drama than anything going on in the Supremes' backyard.

And in the end, you see how Flo, Mary and Diana left with when they left [[or had to leave, in Flo's case) Motown... a group helps make your label one of the most successful recording labels in history and that's how you repay them? Just $100,000-250,000?!

Yes! The antics of the male artists on Motown definitely get a different reaction than the antics of the women, particularly the Supremes. Flo was surely lowballed with her severance, but she probably walked away from Motown with the best money compared to the other two, considering how much she got in 1968 money. Diana got the worst of it. After everything she did in the 70s as a solo act alone, you would've expected her to have more money.

sup_fan
08-01-2018, 04:41 PM
Yeah you see the defenses he gets while Mary, Diana and Flo gets nothing but criticism. Instead of uplifting a group that broke racial and musical barriers, we always shame one of them. Berry Gordy did a NUMBER on all three of them and not to mention the other female Motown acts in his roster yet the women get shamed for the same things that are seen as "normal" when it's male acts like the Temptations, who arguably had FAR more drama than anything going on in the Supremes' backyard.

And in the end, you see how Flo, Mary and Diana left with when they left [[or had to leave, in Flo's case) Motown... a group helps make your label one of the most successful recording labels in history and that's how you repay them? Just $100,000-250,000?!

the girls earned what their contracts stated they would earn. While one could argue that the contracts were overly lopsided in motown's favor, too bad. that's what the girls signed. They certainly were not in a position to negotiate more favorable terms when they started out. But after the hits started, they quickly were resigned. I'm not sure how long each contract was but they surely had at least 1 or more times of renewal during their peak years. At any point they could have negotiated better terms or had a lawyer review them. They did not. they were adults and they willingly signed legal documents that outline exactly what their payment would be for engagements and recordings.

The also received statements from motown on their monies. While motown was notorious for over inflating their press releases regarding million sellers and record sales, the girls could have simply looked at their statements and realized the truth. All three of them were extravagant shoppers and lived very VERY well. given the rates they were actually earning, they might have been wise to be a bit more conservative with their money.

RanRan79
08-01-2018, 04:46 PM
It was in Taborellis latest book on Diana. To paraphrase he said Mary bolted straight for her hotel room after the show while Flo and Diana got into it in the dressing room. Berry then phoned Flo the next day and told her if she goes on stage he'll throw her off.

Even in "Call Her Miss Ross" JRandyT always tries to paint Mary as some kind of wimp, cowering in a corner when the drama breaks out. I think it's pretty much understood that he had an axe to grind where she was concerned also. I'm surprised his followup to CHMR wasn't "NightMare Girl" or some such book. Lol Anyway, despite his depiction of her as a scaredy cat, it was Brenda Holloway who tells the story of when she and Diana got into it real tough on the Dick Clark tour, Mary was right behind Diana ready to jump something off. The Supremes have a well deserved image as glamorous, sophisticated young ladies, but nothing about any of them makes me believe they were anything less than tough. Each of the Supremes would get in yo ass if they had too.:cool:

RanRan79
08-01-2018, 04:55 PM
the girls earned what their contracts stated they would earn. While one could argue that the contracts were overly lopsided in motown's favor, too bad. that's what the girls signed. They certainly were not in a position to negotiate more favorable terms when they started out. But after the hits started, they quickly were resigned. I'm not sure how long each contract was but they surely had at least 1 or more times of renewal during their peak years. At any point they could have negotiated better terms or had a lawyer review them. They did not. they were adults and they willingly signed legal documents that outline exactly what their payment would be for engagements and recordings.

The also received statements from motown on their monies. While motown was notorious for over inflating their press releases regarding million sellers and record sales, the girls could have simply looked at their statements and realized the truth. All three of them were extravagant shoppers and lived very VERY well. given the rates they were actually earning, they might have been wise to be a bit more conservative with their money.

I thought Mary said their royalty statements actually went to Motown, no? While what you outline is business, Motown was an unethical company. Lopsided contracts signed by people who were barely adults, without legal representation, and surely uneducated to anything dealing with the financials of the business. If we're going to talk about company practice, fine, but lets not pretend like any of this was ethical. Motown did what it needed to do to benefit itself. Essentially what the Supremes did was sign contracts that benefited the company pretty much at a disservice to themselves. On top of all that, Motown was nickel and diming everything the group did, including forcing them to pay for recording sessions, the majority of which wouldn't see the light of day for decades. The label forced themselves upon the group as management, allowing the company to collect even more money off of them. Motown was in charge of the girl's bank accounts and the ladies were having to get permission for the company to sign off on anything. The Supremes also got an allowance, so anything they were spending was at the control of Motown. And any time a label doesn't want you doing your own accounting you know they're up to no good. The music business is a dirty business, but a business just the same. Businesses today, not even in music, are doing whatever they can to maximize their profits even at the expense of the people employed there. That's just how things go. Fortunately today we often have legal recourse and even have laws in place to keep some things in check. The Supremes didn't always have that benefit. Motown cheated them kids left and right and I'm not buying that it was cool because it was the way things were done nor because we got great records in the process.

PeaceNHarmony
08-01-2018, 07:19 PM
the girls earned what their contracts stated they would earn. While one could argue that the contracts were overly lopsided in motown's favor, too bad. that's what the girls signed. They certainly were not in a position to negotiate more favorable terms when they started out. But after the hits started, they quickly were resigned. I'm not sure how long each contract was but they surely had at least 1 or more times of renewal during their peak years. At any point they could have negotiated better terms or had a lawyer review them. They did not. they were adults and they willingly signed legal documents that outline exactly what their payment would be for engagements and recordings.

The also received statements from motown on their monies. While motown was notorious for over inflating their press releases regarding million sellers and record sales, the girls could have simply looked at their statements and realized the truth. All three of them were extravagant shoppers and lived very VERY well. given the rates they were actually earning, they might have been wise to be a bit more conservative with their money.
Sadly, correct. And fact is Florence's departing contract, said to be $100,000- , is equal to over $500,000 today. Separating Ballard's sad demise from her finances, she should have been able to ladder that windfall sufficiently to last her lifetime. Hard truth. I'd be willing to bet that the majority of her neighborhood classmates never had that kind of income and managed to make good lives for themselves. But self-responsibility and common sense do not create a villain-ess, do they?

midnightman
08-01-2018, 07:24 PM
$100,000 payment wasn't a lot of money.

Not in 1967, not in 1977 and definitely not in 1980...

That was not enough for Florence... even if she spent wisely. Sadly for her, the husband she married spent half of the money they got while her lawyers ran away with another chunk, which is why she filed charges against them later on.

marv2
08-01-2018, 07:46 PM
Sadly, correct. And fact is Florence's departing contract, said to be $100,000- , is equal to over $500,000 today. Separating Ballard's sad demise from her finances, she should have been able to ladder that windfall sufficiently to last her lifetime. Hard truth. I'd be willing to bet that the majority of her neighborhood classmates never had that kind of income and managed to make good lives for themselves. But self-responsibility and common sense do not create a villain-ess, do they?

I love how you guys just totally leave out HUGE chunks of the story! LOL! You forgot that Florence never really saw that money because her Attorney, Mr. Braun stole it all! He took the checks and ran. Memba?

marv2
08-01-2018, 07:49 PM
$100,000 payment wasn't a lot of money.

Not in 1967, not in 1977 and definitely not in 1980...

That was not enough for Florence... even if she spent wisely. Sadly for her, the husband she married spent half of the money they got while her lawyers ran away with another chunk, which is why she filed charges against them later on.

She and all the rest of them got ripped off! I heard what one of Mr. Gordy's attorney's from the 1960s said about it while I was waiting for a meeting in NYC in 2012. They were ripped off. I hate to tell you this but almost anything you hear from a certain direction is false or 70% not true. That's all I can say.

RanRan79
08-01-2018, 07:52 PM
$100,000 payment wasn't a lot of money.

Not in 1967, not in 1977 and definitely not in 1980...

That was not enough for Florence... even if she spent wisely. Sadly for her, the husband she married spent half of the money they got while her lawyers ran away with another chunk, which is why she filed charges against them later on.

Florence got the equivalent of more than 700 thousand dollars in today's money. A hundred grand was most certainly a lot of money in 1968 when you consider the costs of things at the time. Again, she surely wasn't given what was rightfully hers, but she didn't walk away from the Supremes with an amount to sneeze at. She walked away with the best money of the three girls.

I think the bulk of Flo's money troubles was her lawyer stealing it. Remember he intercepted the settlement. Florence said she watched the Motown rep hand the check over to the lawyer and that's the last she saw of it. It's also possible that he stole the 50 grand signing bonus from ABC too. I'm thinking that whatever money Flo and Tommy ran through was the money she already had before leaving the group. Remember she didn't find out she was broke until she went to the lawyer to ask for the settlement money. So for this I'm not sure we can blame Tommy anymore than we can blame Florence, who I'm sure wanted to continue living in the manner she had grown accustomed and might have spent money to do so.

Also remember when she entered into a solo career, she no longer had a record label like Motown footing the bill for everything. [[Of course we know Motown really wasn't footing the bill for anything, they were just paying for everything from whatever the Supremes earned.) I'm guessing ABC put the money into the recording sessions, but Florence had to do everything herself for the live act and that took money. Who knows what her next musical career would have been had she not gone broke and had to fight the lawyer and then enter into the fight with Motown.

marv2
08-01-2018, 07:53 PM
the girls earned what their contracts stated they would earn. While one could argue that the contracts were overly lopsided in motown's favor, too bad. that's what the girls signed. They certainly were not in a position to negotiate more favorable terms when they started out. But after the hits started, they quickly were resigned. I'm not sure how long each contract was but they surely had at least 1 or more times of renewal during their peak years. At any point they could have negotiated better terms or had a lawyer review them. They did not. they were adults and they willingly signed legal documents that outline exactly what their payment would be for engagements and recordings.

The also received statements from motown on their monies. While motown was notorious for over inflating their press releases regarding million sellers and record sales, the girls could have simply looked at their statements and realized the truth. All three of them were extravagant shoppers and lived very VERY well. given the rates they were actually earning, they might have been wise to be a bit more conservative with their money.

You do know that Motown negotiated the Supremes contracts, for them................with themselves! It would be funny if it weren't so devious.

BayouMotownMan
08-01-2018, 08:32 PM
She and all the rest of them got ripped off! I heard what one of Mr. Gordy's attorney's from the 1960s said about it while I was waiting for a meeting in NYC in 2012. They were ripped off. I hate to tell you this but almost anything you hear from a certain direction is false or 70% not true. That's all I can say.


You prove that in every post you make

Roberta75
08-01-2018, 09:22 PM
You prove that in every post you make

LOLOLOLOLOLOL isnt that the truth.

midnightman
08-01-2018, 11:51 PM
Sadly, correct. And fact is Florence's departing contract, said to be $100,000- , is equal to over $500,000 today. Separating Ballard's sad demise from her finances, she should have been able to ladder that windfall sufficiently to last her lifetime. Hard truth. I'd be willing to bet that the majority of her neighborhood classmates never had that kind of income and managed to make good lives for themselves. But self-responsibility and common sense do not create a villain-ess, do they?

I reckon if she wasn't married and had no children, maybe she could've hired someone who really looked after her. Then her career could've had a different story than it turned out.

marv2
08-02-2018, 12:48 AM
Yeah you see the defenses he gets while Mary, Diana and Flo gets nothing but criticism. Instead of uplifting a group that broke racial and musical barriers, we always shame one of them. Berry Gordy did a NUMBER on all three of them and not to mention the other female Motown acts in his roster yet the women get shamed for the same things that are seen as "normal" when it's male acts like the Temptations, who arguably had FAR more drama than anything going on in the Supremes' backyard.

And in the end, you see how Flo, Mary and Diana left with when they left [[or had to leave, in Flo's case) Motown... a group helps make your label one of the most successful recording labels in history and that's how you repay them? Just $100,000-250,000?!

Has Mr. Gordy ever spoken of Florence Ballard publicly?

Bluebrock
08-02-2018, 02:38 AM
Diana Ross was the act. If Diana was hot that night, the show was hot. If Diana was cold that night, the show was cold. Diana deserved her own private dressing room if that contributed towards her giving a better performance. After all, she was the act.
Spot on. I have said similar in the past. It greatly amused me to read on here not too long ago that an infamous Diana basher [[you know the one) claimed that Diana had the easiest job of the trio because all she had to do was sing. It cracked me up then, and it cracks me up now. You couldn't make this stuff up.

RanRan79
08-02-2018, 09:38 AM
Spot on. I have said similar in the past. It greatly amused me to read on here not too long ago that an infamous Diana basher [[you know the one) claimed that Diana had the easiest job of the trio because all she had to do was sing. It cracked me up then, and it cracks me up now. You couldn't make this stuff up.

Mary and Florence have both been quoted as saying they didn't envy the position Diana was in where Gordy was concerned. He put a ton of pressure on her. I think Mary even referred to some of what went down as abusive. You can't be the lead singer of the second most famous group in the world and have it easy. Of course He Who Shall Not Be Named would say such a thing. He once tried to tell me that all Diana had to do was sing, while Flo and Mary had to learn choreography. I had to laugh at that. I mean, how difficult was it to learn to make a "stop" gesture with your hand? That silly rabbit...

As for that comment you responded to, lead singer or not, it does nothing for group unity when one girl gets something that the others don't get. Ross was great, but if she was so great and just couldn't take big bad Flo and big bad Mary hurting her wittle feelings, then Gordy should've pulled her out of the act to see if she could make it on her own. And she would've fallen flat on her face, as she almost did when she eventually did go solo after two and a half years of having her name above the Supremes. She was a big part of the Supremes, but she wasn't the only part.

LoveSupreme
08-02-2018, 10:55 AM
Mary and Florence have both been quoted as saying they didn't envy the position Diana was in where Gordy was concerned. He put a ton of pressure on her. I think Mary even referred to some of what went down as abusive. You can't be the lead singer of the second most famous group in the world and have it easy. Of course He Who Shall Not Be Named would say such a thing. He once tried to tell me that all Diana had to do was sing, while Flo and Mary had to learn choreography. I had to laugh at that. I mean, how difficult was it to learn to make a "stop" gesture with your hand? That silly rabbit...

As for that comment you responded to, lead singer or not, it does nothing for group unity when one girl gets something that the others don't get. Ross was great, but if she was so great and just couldn't take big bad Flo and big bad Mary hurting her wittle feelings, then Gordy should've pulled her out of the act to see if she could make it on her own. And she would've fallen flat on her face, as she almost did when she eventually did go solo after two and a half years of having her name above the Supremes. She was a big part of the Supremes, but she wasn't the only part.

Very well put RanRan79. Spot on.

thanxal
08-02-2018, 11:02 AM
I disagree, but only with this bit...


You can't be the lead singer of the second most famous group in the world and have it easy.

They were the MOST famous group in the world. Maybe you were thinking of that other group from the UK? Nope. They were bugs compared to our girls!

[P.S. LOL in case its not obvious].

LoveSupreme
08-02-2018, 11:08 AM
There was a reason why Berry Gordy didn't pull Diana from the group as early as 1966 when tensions were rising. He knew if he did that he would alienate the fan base. The fans still saw them as a group, regardless of what was going on behind the scenes. It would not have been good a move publicity-wise at that point, he needed her in that group and she needed them.

It was all methodical. In 1966 the fans, television and concert booking agents wanted "The Supremes" - they wanted all three of them - not just Diana. Once Florence was out it was easier for him to re-name the group, give her top billing and slowly get the public, the concert promoters and television booking agents a chance to familiarize themselves with her name.

When the name of the group was changed you will notice on many of the promotional materials, album covers and concert programs Diana's name is in a much smaller font size than the group's name.

Her voice was always up front but the exposure of her name and her image as the focal point was done over time.

By 1969 it was basically a given that she was leaving, even before there was an official announcement. Motown started booking solo gigs even before she left. I believe two of them were her appearances on "Rowan & Martin's Laugh-In" and the Dinah Shore television special, "Like Hep".

sup_fan
08-02-2018, 11:31 AM
$100,000 payment wasn't a lot of money.

Not in 1967, not in 1977 and definitely not in 1980...

That was not enough for Florence... even if she spent wisely. Sadly for her, the husband she married spent half of the money they got while her lawyers ran away with another chunk, which is why she filed charges against them later on.

sorry but you're incorrect in this statement. 100,000 in 1967 comes to approximately 750,000 in today's dollars, according to the top economic inflation adjustment calculators. remember - the houses they bought in 65 were about $30,000 today and were BEAUTIFUL homes. there's probably not a single property in the entire US today that could be purchased for $30k AND considered desirable and beautiful.

The truth is motown handled her departure harshly. no question there. but flo had absolutely 0 experience with identifying and hiring quality support staff - accountants, lawyers, managers, etc. and to be honest, outside of motown, there was probably no one in detroit at that time with any real background in entertainment law and contracts, financial negotiations, etc. Still Flo was an adult and made her decisions both in how she would handle situations while in the group and how she's handle them once out of the group.

i wonder if her family was also HUGELY responsible for her demise. their inability to provide any real guidance or sound advice surely played a major role in her decisions, both good and bad. there have been multiple sources that have states they elevated their own personal lots via her fame, that they always had demands for money which she always gave, that their advice consisted of 'don't you let The Man push you around' and not really balanced on how to handle the issues of fame and corporate politics.

Cindy herself has said that the disintegration of the original supremes really was hard for all involved - diana, mary AND berry. Mary too says that as the hits started, it was a wonderful dream for all four of them. but as problem arose and Flo started to crack, berry had to be the boss and not the friend. to simply let emotion guide his decisions would have meant the collapse of the sups, diana ross and most likely motown.

midnightman
08-02-2018, 12:01 PM
It may have been a lot in 1967 but she was part of the Supremes, which is what I'm trying to say here. You mean 10 number one singles and a few number one albums not to mention the top 10s in between and earning Motown more money than other artists could ever imagine and she only walked away with that much. I'm just trying to say she got robbed of more money. That's all.

sup_fan
08-02-2018, 12:17 PM
i don't think they were robbed - they were paid what their contracts stated. i do not believe motown absconded with money from them. I do agree that their contracts were too low. but between the facts that they were women, black and signed to an independent label, i doubt it would have been all that much different anywhere else. according to some sources, motown contracts were sub-par compared to the industry at that time. other sources say they were basically in line. i'm frankly not sure since i've never taken the time to research what other labels were offering black artists at the time

Mary also makes the point that success makes you overlook things. had DMF signed to another label, i think it's very safe to say the story of the Sups would be drastically different. the relationship berry had with all 3 girls and especially diana, the perfect alignment between he and hers vision for cross-over success, the combo of HDH and Sups, motowns visions [[which they also subsidized for the artists) of Artist Development, the motown concept of Quality Control. all of these are intangibles that were absolutely essential to the Supremes recording success.

so in light of all of these, it's hard to say if they were all that robbed. what price would you associate for having practically total exclusive access to the talents of HDH and receiving their undivided attention to craft not 1, not 2, not 10 but dozens of amazing songs for you?

what about the benefit of having Berry's personal guidance with your career management? most of the other artists actually site his preoccupation with the Sups as a detriment to their own careers. So the sups benefited from that.

the costs of artist development, designing their major and groundbreaking live appearances at the copa?

plus there's all of the costs they WERE billed for - gowns, stage makeup, recording sessions, photo shoots, etc.

and don't forget they spend their money lavishly

so at the end of the day, by mid 67 if all Flo had in her accounts was $700K, i'm not so sure that's really inaccurate or that she was robbed.

thanxal
08-02-2018, 12:42 PM
It may have been a lot in 1967 but she was part of the Supremes, which is what I'm trying to say here. You mean 10 number one singles and a few number one albums not to mention the top 10s in between and earning Motown more money than other artists could ever imagine and she only walked away with that much. I'm just trying to say she got robbed of more money. That's all.
I agree completely with you. Even if we hold that amount constant in 2018 dollars [[$750k), is there any single artist or group member today that would consider $750k sufficient for string of 8 [[at the time Flo was kicked out) #1 hits? Definitely not.

Now whether or not the fault was "Motown being evil" vs. "the girls knew what they were doings as adults", I'm not sure I fully agree with either side. Its a little of column A and a little of column B. I guess these gray areas are what keeps this forum spinning. Can't be resolved and never will be. I guess its is a positive thing, though. We're almost 60 years on and some days I read this forum and think it happened yesterday. That's certainly one way to keep Motown alive.

midnightman
08-02-2018, 01:48 PM
Nah I'm not saying Motown was evil, I just know that as a group member, she should've gotten more. She was worth more than $100,000. Which was really the point I was trying to get to but I said it all wrong and that's why you thought I was erring in fact. I do know $100,000 was a lot of money, just that she was a member of, as Ran said, the second biggest group of the entire '60s. That would be like if John Lennon had left the Beatles and got replaced and all he got out of it was $200,000 or whatever that means in British pounds, you see what I'm saying? Maybe "robbed" is the wrong word but you get what I'm trying to say, right?

thanxal
08-02-2018, 02:04 PM
Nah I'm not saying Motown was evil, I just know that as a group member, she should've gotten more. She was worth more than $100,000. Which was really the point I was trying to get to but I said it all wrong and that's why you thought I was erring in fact. I do know $100,000 was a lot of money, just that she was a member of, as Ran said, the second biggest group of the entire '60s. That would be like if John Lennon had left the Beatles and got replaced and all he got out of it was $200,000 or whatever that means in British pounds, you see what I'm saying? Maybe "robbed" is the wrong word but you get what I'm trying to say, right?
Are you replying to me? I agree with you that $100k was patently unfair.
My characterization of the debate wasn't reflective of your post, just others I've read NUMEROUS times here.

midnightman
08-02-2018, 03:18 PM
Are you replying to me? I agree with you that $100k was patently unfair.
My characterization of the debate wasn't reflective of your post, just others I've read NUMEROUS times here.

Nah lol
That was to sup_fan :)
But yeah I know you and I are in agreement. :D

sup_fan
08-02-2018, 03:35 PM
Nah I'm not saying Motown was evil, I just know that as a group member, she should've gotten more. She was worth more than $100,000. Which was really the point I was trying to get to but I said it all wrong and that's why you thought I was erring in fact. I do know $100,000 was a lot of money, just that she was a member of, as Ran said, the second biggest group of the entire '60s. That would be like if John Lennon had left the Beatles and got replaced and all he got out of it was $200,000 or whatever that means in British pounds, you see what I'm saying? Maybe "robbed" is the wrong word but you get what I'm trying to say, right?

oh i completely agree that worth doesn't necessary equate to compensation. clearly motown knew she was worth more as Berry and everyone tried to deal with the situation for so long. The idea of firing a Supreme was unthinkable until it finally just became too risky to keep her. Gordy knew that the 3 girls were all talented entertainers and to get rid of one could really compromise the appeal and success of the overall

The group most certainly generated a huge amount of money for motown. much much more than what was paid or contractually owed to the girls. that's why they put up with Flo's fighting. the success of the company depended on the continued success of the supremes.

but when you're terminated, you're not going to be given extras, perks, bonuses. they're going to limit what they have to do to end the situation. they tried offering just $15K [[which is truly outlandish) and then Flo came back and negotiated a better settlement. i'm frankly a little surprised motown didn't try to enforce that she signed the first agreement but maybe their lawyers advised that would most likely not hold up in court if Flo sued.

sup_fan
08-02-2018, 03:36 PM
Nah lol
That was to sup_fan :)
But yeah I know you and I are in agreement. :D

and just for the record - i enjoy all of the fan dialog here. the sharing of differing opinions and thoughts :)

please don't read my posts as attacks or anything negative

thanxal
08-02-2018, 04:13 PM
but when you're terminated, you're not going to be given extras, perks, bonuses. they're going to limit what they have to do to end the situation.

Also a true statement.

Do also consider that many employers, however, "push" their employees to quit or into behavior that warrants firing them. In the modern hellscape of American labor laws, lax as they are, this means the employee doesn't get unemployment compensation. How many of us have been in jobs so bad the employer forced us out? I have. I don't know if this was Flo's situation, but I can certainly empathize were it so.

midnightman
08-02-2018, 06:49 PM
and just for the record - i enjoy all of the fan dialog here. the sharing of differing opinions and thoughts :)

please don't read my posts as attacks or anything negative

Haha no I won't ever read them like that. I'm enjoying this discussion too with everyone in here. :)

midnightman
08-02-2018, 06:50 PM
oh i completely agree that worth doesn't necessary equate to compensation. clearly motown knew she was worth more as Berry and everyone tried to deal with the situation for so long. The idea of firing a Supreme was unthinkable until it finally just became too risky to keep her. Gordy knew that the 3 girls were all talented entertainers and to get rid of one could really compromise the appeal and success of the overall

The group most certainly generated a huge amount of money for motown. much much more than what was paid or contractually owed to the girls. that's why they put up with Flo's fighting. the success of the company depended on the continued success of the supremes.

but when you're terminated, you're not going to be given extras, perks, bonuses. they're going to limit what they have to do to end the situation. they tried offering just $15K [[which is truly outlandish) and then Flo came back and negotiated a better settlement. i'm frankly a little surprised motown didn't try to enforce that she signed the first agreement but maybe their lawyers advised that would most likely not hold up in court if Flo sued.

OK I understand what you mean now... I see why they settled the way they did then!

marv2
08-02-2018, 08:04 PM
Also a true statement.

Do also consider that many employers, however, "push" their employees to quit or into behavior that warrants firing them. In the modern hellscape of American labor laws, lax as they are, this means the employee doesn't get unemployment compensation. How many of us have been in jobs so bad the employer forced us out? I have. I don't know if this was Flo's situation, but I can certainly empathize were it so.

Oh they made it tough for her. "Flo, you're too fat!", "Flo, you're drunk, go home..", "Flo, you're singing flat" yada, yada, yada. They tried it on her, but she wouldn't quit. She had to be fired. Had she quit, she would have lost most of any legal grounds she may have had. If she had the proper lawyer, Motown would had to cough up a whole lot more than the total $175,000 they offered her. Florence Ballard NEVER received an proper accounting of what she earned while at Motown. This all smells bad because she was left with Motown holding all of the power when they sent that snake Michael Roshkind to meet her that day at Northland in Southfiedl!

marv2
08-02-2018, 08:06 PM
Also a true statement.

Do also consider that many employers, however, "push" their employees to quit or into behavior that warrants firing them. In the modern hellscape of American labor laws, lax as they are, this means the employee doesn't get unemployment compensation. How many of us have been in jobs so bad the employer forced us out? I have. I don't know if this was Flo's situation, but I can certainly empathize were it so.

That is what happens to lots of people here in New York being that it is a "Right to Work" State.

marv2
08-02-2018, 08:10 PM
It may have been a lot in 1967 but she was part of the Supremes, which is what I'm trying to say here. You mean 10 number one singles and a few number one albums not to mention the top 10s in between and earning Motown more money than other artists could ever imagine and she only walked away with that much. I'm just trying to say she got robbed of more money. That's all.

They each got something like $6,000 -7,000 for a million selling album! That is peanuts even by 1960s standards!

BayouMotownMan
08-02-2018, 09:39 PM
They each got something like $6,000 -7,000 for a million selling album! That is peanuts even by 1960s standards!

Inaccurate again, they had to SPLIT THREE WAYS that amount.

The amount of royalties each Supreme received was negligible. By the time costs of unreleased and/or unsuccessful recordings were charged against them it kept them in a negative balance. Also they had to pay for Mrs Powell, Cholly Atkins and an assortment of other musician charges as well as studio time. Add to that the purchases of homes, cars, jewelry and clothing and this kept the balance of what Motown owed them in the negative.

The Supremes made the bulk of their monies for personal appearances, tv shows, and endorsements.

marv2
08-02-2018, 10:53 PM
Inaccurate again, they had to SPLIT THREE WAYS that amount.

The amount of royalties each Supreme received was negligible. By the time costs of unreleased and/or unsuccessful recordings were charged against them it kept them in a negative balance. Also they had to pay for Mrs Powell, Cholly Atkins and an assortment of other musician charges as well as studio time. Add to that the purchases of homes, cars, jewelry and clothing and this kept the balance of what Motown owed them in the negative.

The Supremes made the bulk of their monies for personal appearances, tv shows, and endorsements.

Alright look, I'm not here to argue with someone that never knows what he is talking about. You have to get what little bits I and perhaps some others give you! Trust me, I'll never give it all up here or anywhere else. So to humor you. Go here and listen closely at 7:58 in this interview. This is also not the first time I've heard these numbers. Like I said earlier, most of the stuff you think you know is wrong!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fw1p896hQvs&t=454s

PeaceNHarmony
08-03-2018, 05:48 AM
Well, if autopsy didn't settle the issues once and for all I'm sure the upcoming, all-star, big budget movie will.

milven
08-03-2018, 07:38 AM
Hey Marv, Not criticizing your post, but I had to chuckle at one line of your text. It seems Trumpese Speak is catching and we are are starting to speak it.


... Like I said earlier, most of the stuff you think you know is wrong!


Donald said something similar at one of his many rallies to his base this week

" Don't Believe What You See And Read" Donald Trump

milven
08-03-2018, 08:01 AM
...Go here and listen closely at 7:58 in this interview. This is also not the first time I've heard these numbers....

In your video reference, Mary said that when the group disbanded in 1970, she got 100,000. Did Diana get the same amount? What about Cindy? Also, I believed that the group disbanded in 1977. Did Motown regard the Supremes after 1970 as a new group and start a new set of bookeeping or is that when Mary's Supremes Inc. took over? So much of the Supremes 1970's history is confusing to me. I always considered them a continuing group with changing members

TheMotownManiac
08-03-2018, 08:11 AM
If your point is that it would've been a wise decision on Gordy's part to separate them due to the friction, there is no argument against that. Set aside the fact [[my opinion anyway) that Gordy was the cause of the friction in the first place, if he was really about helping the situation, why give one girl a dressing room over the others? Surely he would've been smart enough to know that while this may stop some of the before and after show bickering, it would not put an end to it in general and would only increase it, since young women have a tendency to be jealous when another woman seems to be getting more of something than she. [[And ladies I realize I'm generalizing so I'll take my chastisements as they come.) If Gordy wanted to ease the tension then why not give all three girls their own dressing room? That's the argument I'm making. I don't see how anyone can argue that giving one girl her own anything vs the other two makes any sense when the folks in charge should be doing everything they can to make the ship run as smoothly as possible. There is no smooth sailing when you have three young ladies and one is getting special treatment. 1966, 1776, 2016...no matter the year, young women that age tend to react to the situation in the same way. Gordy knew that.

I agree that giving them each their own room would have been the best option, but i’ll Bet Flo wouldn’t have wanted it that way until she stopped talking to Mary in early ‘67. I used to do a lot of theater and the dressing room was a fun place to get charged up before the show. Had I always been the star, maybe i’d Have wanted less hub bub around me, but I didn’t feel that way with the few leads I had. I was acting though, not trying to work an audience with my charm - I dunno, had I been Ross and in conflict with either girl or both, I’d have wanted to get my shit together before the show without the negs.

I agree Gordyvwas a shake, and After losing Mary Wells, was wise to keep the goose laying the golden eggs in his own hen house - and away from the other, influential chickens. I admire his work a lot, but he was rotten. All three girls deserved much better from him - yes, Flo was wrong to act out. There’s no excuse, if your boss is a creep, shut the fuck up about it until you are off work. It’s unprofessional to bring bad vibes to work - period. A Go Go only made things worse for a Flo as she’s not on half of it, Mary got a lead and it went to #1 - so I’m sure her feelings were hurt learning that she wasn’t needed on their highest charting album. It’s all so sad. Such a sweet girl - trampled by An avoricious visionary.

Roberta75
08-03-2018, 08:36 AM
Well, if autopsy didn't settle the issues once and for all I'm sure the upcoming, all-star, big budget movie will.

LOL. I wouldnt hold your breath for that one coming to theaters anytime soon.

Roberta75
08-03-2018, 08:38 AM
Alright look, I'm not here to argue with someone that never knows what he is talking about. You have to get what little bits I and perhaps some others give you! Trust me, I'll never give it all up here or anywhere else. So to humor you. Go here and listen closely at 7:58 in this interview. This is also not the first time I've heard these numbers. Like I said earlier, most of the stuff you think you know is wrong!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fw1p896hQvs&t=454s

The gospel according to St Mary Wilson. LOL

RanRan79
08-03-2018, 09:10 AM
They were the MOST famous group in the world. Maybe you were thinking of that other group from the UK? Nope. They were bugs compared to our girls!

[P.S. LOL in case its not obvious].

Ha! Well, most sources do note that for a time the Supremes rivaled the Beatles in popularity. That's no small feat. The Supremes were some badd girls.

thanxal
08-03-2018, 09:28 AM
Ha! Well, most sources do note that for a time the Supremes rivaled the Beatles in popularity. That's no small feat. The Supremes were some badd girls.
Never heard of these beetles of which you speak. FAKE NOOOS FAKE NOOOS FAKE NOOOS.

RanRan79
08-03-2018, 09:28 AM
There was a reason why Berry Gordy didn't pull Diana from the group as early as 1966 when tensions were rising. He knew if he did that he would alienate the fan base. The fans still saw them as a group, regardless of what was going on behind the scenes.

Her voice was always up front but the exposure of her name and her image as the focal point was done over time.

By 1969 it was basically a given that she was leaving, even before there was an official announcement. Motown started booking solo gigs even before she left. I believe two of them were her appearances on "Rowan & Martin's Laugh-In" and the Dinah Shore television special, "Like Hep".

While I do think Gordy may have considered the fans, I think ultimately he knew what should have been apparent to everyone else: Diana was not a solo act. Love me some Ross as I do, I watch her as a Supreme during that time period and nothing about her screams that she'd be someone that people would fall over themselves wanting to see alone at that point. She was the something extra in a singing group; a something extra that was so extra that it seems a lot folks either loved her or hated her for it. Doesn't seem like there was much room for indifference to what she brought to the table. You mention image, and that's the key. When the DRATS era entered, Diana Ross became something else entirely. Aside from her name now being out front, as a performer she seemed to jump right out ahead of the competition soon as Flo left. She was cultivating the Ross enchantment. Vocally Diana was great, but it was the total package that pushed her ahead of the pack when she finally did go solo. And yet even after two years of having her name and image pushed ahead of the Supremes, after doing solo spots without the girls, after recording hit singles with no other Supremes on them, and with a publicity campaign to announce her exit from the group, she still debuted to a half filled venue. After all of that, half filled? In 1970? Wow. I imagine Diana Ross, solo artist, in 1966/67 would have probably at least filled half a house, but I think if she were ever going to be the DIANA ROSS that she would eventually become, she would've endured a few years of so-so success before fulfilling her destiny. And I believe Gordy knew that. There may have been a contemplation of the question "can Diane make it as a solo artist", but I doubt if it was ever given any real consideration in 1966.

RanRan79
08-03-2018, 09:35 AM
i wonder if her family was also HUGELY responsible for her demise. their inability to provide any real guidance or sound advice surely played a major role in her decisions, both good and bad. there have been multiple sources that have states they elevated their own personal lots via her fame, that they always had demands for money which she always gave, that their advice consisted of 'don't you let The Man push you around' and not really balanced on how to handle the issues of fame and corporate politics.


I think it's unfair to put any blame on her family. They may have asked Flo for a lot, and that would be no surprise. Probably 90 percent of celebrities' family members ask for a lot. But any "advice" she was getting was most certainly coming from information that Florence was relaying about her experience. And while I tend to side with Flo's side of the story on some of the behind the scenes antics, it was her side of the story, and so would surely be biased somehow. Personally, if my sister were to tell me of things going on at her job that was unfair and down right cruel from her POV, my advice to her would also be don't let anyone push her around. And Flo shouldn't have allowed herself to be pushed around. Her biggest downfall was that she self medicated, which never allows a person to make great decisions, and I find it hard to believe that her family told her to do that.

thanxal
08-03-2018, 09:42 AM
And Flo shouldn't have allowed herself to be pushed around. Her biggest downfall was that she self medicated, which never allows a person to make great decisions, and I find it hard to believe that her family told her to do that.

But do also remember that she suffered from an untreated rape in an era where women and African Americans were second or third class citizens. Compound those three factors alone and it is amazing to me she was still able to accomplish all she did. Americans [[not you in particular RR) tend to blame individuals for structural violence, expecting that an individual has the resources, information, and ability to act against large structural forces [[of violence in this case). Its why libertarianism is such quackery.

RanRan79
08-03-2018, 09:49 AM
Mary also makes the point that success makes you overlook things. had DMF signed to another label, i think it's very safe to say the story of the Sups would be drastically different. the relationship berry had with all 3 girls and especially diana, the perfect alignment between he and hers vision for cross-over success, the combo of HDH and Sups, motowns visions [[which they also subsidized for the artists) of Artist Development, the motown concept of Quality Control. all of these are intangibles that were absolutely essential to the Supremes recording success.

so in light of all of these, it's hard to say if they were all that robbed. what price would you associate for having practically total exclusive access to the talents of HDH and receiving their undivided attention to craft not 1, not 2, not 10 but dozens of amazing songs for you?

what about the benefit of having Berry's personal guidance with your career management? most of the other artists actually site his preoccupation with the Sups as a detriment to their own careers. So the sups benefited from that.

the costs of artist development, designing their major and groundbreaking live appearances at the copa?

plus there's all of the costs they WERE billed for - gowns, stage makeup, recording sessions, photo shoots, etc.

and don't forget they spend their money lavishly

so at the end of the day, by mid 67 if all Flo had in her accounts was $700K, i'm not so sure that's really inaccurate or that she was robbed.

Now this I have a problem with. You can't do me wrong in any aspect but follow it up with "but all the other things I did for you...". Nah, that doesn't fly with me. The Supremes had benefits that most artists at the time- at any time actually- could only dream about. But can't the same be said of Motown? What other record label had a Supremes? Would Motown be Motown without the Supremes? The Supremes were making Motown money, not really the other way around. I'd be surprised to learn that Gordy was dipping into his personal bank account [[as income from his job as the boss of Motown) to pay for anything once the Supremes hit their stride. All those plane rides, the costumes, Cholly and Maurice and Gil and the band, the meals, the recording sessions, the photo shoots, were no doubt being paid for via "Where Did Our Love Go" and "The Happening", and every hit in between, not to mention the money commanded for appearances and performances.

So sure, everything that happened allowed Mary to command attention for 50 years off the strength of being a Supreme alone, and while Flo isn't around to reap any benefits, the fact that she is still remembered at all, more than 50 years after leaving the group, speaks to the advantage of being a Supreme. [[Diana Ross obviously has had a long and successful career after leaving the group, but obviously even that owes something to the years she put in the Supremes.) But that doesn't erase the underhandedness of the contractual/business situation. How do you negotiate a contract with yourself? That should've been enough to void any contract the girls signed. Motown was dirty, I don't care what kind of way that pie is sliced.

RanRan79
08-03-2018, 09:51 AM
and just for the record - i enjoy all of the fan dialog here. the sharing of differing opinions and thoughts :)

please don't read my posts as attacks or anything negative

I don't think anyone could ever accuse you of attacks Sup.

RanRan79
08-03-2018, 09:53 AM
Also a true statement.

Do also consider that many employers, however, "push" their employees to quit or into behavior that warrants firing them. In the modern hellscape of American labor laws, lax as they are, this means the employee doesn't get unemployment compensation. How many of us have been in jobs so bad the employer forced us out? I have. I don't know if this was Flo's situation, but I can certainly empathize were it so.

You betcha. It happens all of the time. And just how nasty is it to require that someone not receive future royalties on the work they put in? Had Flo had quality legal counsel I'd like to think she would have been informed on what a bad idea that was.

RanRan79
08-03-2018, 09:57 AM
Inaccurate again, they had to SPLIT THREE WAYS that amount.

The amount of royalties each Supreme received was negligible. By the time costs of unreleased and/or unsuccessful recordings were charged against them it kept them in a negative balance. Also they had to pay for Mrs Powell, Cholly Atkins and an assortment of other musician charges as well as studio time. Add to that the purchases of homes, cars, jewelry and clothing and this kept the balance of what Motown owed them in the negative.

The Supremes made the bulk of their monies for personal appearances, tv shows, and endorsements.

In some ways the Supremes seemed to be in a glorified, Hollywood version of the sharecropping system. The plantation owner provides all of the things that the sharecropper needs [[including clothes) and then when the crop comes in, charges all of those things back to the farmer, who is often left in a debt situation because the crop [[supposedly) never amounts to the coverage of the items charged against the farmer. Obviously the Supremes were living better than any sharecropper ever did, but their financial situation is eerily similar.

RanRan79
08-03-2018, 10:02 AM
Never heard of these beetles of which you speak. FAKE NOOOS FAKE NOOOS FAKE NOOOS.

I'm getting the feeling that you're not a fan of the bugs, huh? LOL [[Me either, btw. Great songwriters they were, though.)

marv2
08-03-2018, 10:08 AM
Hey Marv, Not criticizing your post, but I had to chuckle at one line of your text. It seems Trumpese Speak is catching and we are are starting to speak it.


Donald said something similar at one of his many rallies to his base this week

" Don't Believe What You See And Read" Donald Trump


OMG! He is rubbing off on me! Back you mean media, you fake news purveyors! Go now! Go Now! LOL!

RanRan79
08-03-2018, 10:08 AM
But do also remember that she suffered from an untreated rape in an era where women and African Americans were second or third class citizens. Compound those three factors alone and it is amazing to me she was still able to accomplish all she did. Americans [[not you in particular RR) tend to blame individuals for structural violence, expecting that an individual has the resources, information, and ability to act against large structural forces [[of violence in this case). Its why libertarianism is such quackery.

Yeah, I think I mentioned in another thread that it seems like the changes in the group in 1966 played off of what she might have been dealing with in regards to the rape: betrayal, mistrust, an overbearing male. I understand why she self medicated, I just wish she hadn't. By all accounts Flo was always outspoken and not easily pushed around, but never has anyone spoken of her behavior being out of control until this point. So had she sought psych help [[which was a rarity in those days for anyone, but especially a young Black woman) rather than turn to alcohol, one has to wonder how differently would she have handled everything. And of course in addition to the alcohol, she was also on the diet pills which has a known side effect for erratic behavior, so how might that have changed the scenario? All what ifs that can never be accurately answered, but still interesting to ponder.

marv2
08-03-2018, 10:16 AM
Well, if autopsy didn't settle the issues once and for all I'm sure the upcoming, all-star, big budget movie will.

Oh it's never going to be over. If there is still this much interest after 42 years, then it will not end! After they finally get to the truth, there will be post mortems to discuss why it happened . How people can be so rotten to other people.........

sup_fan
08-03-2018, 10:22 AM
OK I understand what you mean now... I see why they settled the way they did then!

and of course i'm just speculating. piecing together bits of the story from one book on motown or the sups with another. frankly anyone's guess is fair game

marv2
08-03-2018, 10:26 AM
In your video reference, Mary said that when the group disbanded in 1970, she got 100,000. Did Diana get the same amount? What about Cindy? Also, I believed that the group disbanded in 1977. Did Motown regard the Supremes after 1970 as a new group and start a new set of bookeeping or is that when Mary's Supremes Inc. took over? So much of the Supremes 1970's history is confusing to me. I always considered them a continuing group with changing members

That is a lot of questions there. LOL! Here are just a few answers. Mary was referring to "Diana Ross & the Supremes" disbanding in 1970. She and Diana received $ 100,000 from the Supremes joint account [[so much for all of those stocks and bonds Motown was supposed to be buying managing for them.....). From the joint account, they had given Florence Ballard an additional $5,000 as a part of her settlement. The Supremes did disband in 1977 [[June 12, 1977). Motown did not regard The Supremes as a new group, despite all the "New Supremes" PR they put out there. Mary Wilson, however did regard them as a new group. She and Cindy were still long term contracted employees of Motown and Jean Terrell was signed individually as a Supreme. They had to start new book keeping, new accounts because starting in 1970 Mary and Cindy received royalties, while Jean Terrell was on salary to start. Mary's Supremes Inc. took over in late 1973, early '74. Don't be confused. That's what they were a continuing, established group with changing members.

sup_fan
08-03-2018, 10:32 AM
Now this I have a problem with. You can't do me wrong in any aspect but follow it up with "but all the other things I did for you...". Nah, that doesn't fly with me. The Supremes had benefits that most artists at the time- at any time actually- could only dream about. But can't the same be said of Motown? What other record label had a Supremes? Would Motown be Motown without the Supremes? The Supremes were making Motown money, not really the other way around. I'd be surprised to learn that Gordy was dipping into his personal bank account [[as income from his job as the boss of Motown) to pay for anything once the Supremes hit their stride. All those plane rides, the costumes, Cholly and Maurice and Gil and the band, the meals, the recording sessions, the photo shoots, were no doubt being paid for via "Where Did Our Love Go" and "The Happening", and every hit in between, not to mention the money commanded for appearances and performances.

So sure, everything that happened allowed Mary to command attention for 50 years off the strength of being a Supreme alone, and while Flo isn't around to reap any benefits, the fact that she is still remembered at all, more than 50 years after leaving the group, speaks to the advantage of being a Supreme. [[Diana Ross obviously has had a long and successful career after leaving the group, but obviously even that owes something to the years she put in the Supremes.) But that doesn't erase the underhandedness of the contractual/business situation. How do you negotiate a contract with yourself? That should've been enough to void any contract the girls signed. Motown was dirty, I don't care what kind of way that pie is sliced.

compensation isn't only about the actual pay check. that's how companies of higher stature or of a more marque brand get away with paying less. you're getting the intangible benefit of adding a top pedigree brand to your resume.

same with the supremes. no other record company was offering the level of care and management as motown. some of that was billed to them but much wasn't. at other companies they'd have had to source all of that Artist Development on their own and pay out of pocket. Gladys and Pips did with Cholly prior to coming to motown.

now i still agree that their royalty rate wasn't as high as it should be. given their position as THE SUPREMES they certainly should have been paid more too. but their contracts were what they were.

midnightman
08-03-2018, 10:55 AM
Yeah, I think I mentioned in another thread that it seems like the changes in the group in 1966 played off of what she might have been dealing with in regards to the rape: betrayal, mistrust, an overbearing male. I understand why she self medicated, I just wish she hadn't. By all accounts Flo was always outspoken and not easily pushed around, but never has anyone spoken of her behavior being out of control until this point. So had she sought psych help [[which was a rarity in those days for anyone, but especially a young Black woman) rather than turn to alcohol, one has to wonder how differently would she have handled everything. And of course in addition to the alcohol, she was also on the diet pills which has a known side effect for erratic behavior, so how might that have changed the scenario? All what ifs that can never be accurately answered, but still interesting to ponder.

Florence definitely have to deal with a lot. And yes treatment in those days were VERY primitive compared to now!

midnightman
08-03-2018, 11:06 AM
While I do think Gordy may have considered the fans, I think ultimately he knew what should have been apparent to everyone else: Diana was not a solo act. Love me some Ross as I do, I watch her as a Supreme during that time period and nothing about her screams that she'd be someone that people would fall over themselves wanting to see alone at that point. She was the something extra in a singing group; a something extra that was so extra that it seems a lot folks either loved her or hated her for it. Doesn't seem like there was much room for indifference to what she brought to the table. You mention image, and that's the key. When the DRATS era entered, Diana Ross became something else entirely. Aside from her name now being out front, as a performer she seemed to jump right out ahead of the competition soon as Flo left. She was cultivating the Ross enchantment. Vocally Diana was great, but it was the total package that pushed her ahead of the pack when she finally did go solo. And yet even after two years of having her name and image pushed ahead of the Supremes, after doing solo spots without the girls, after recording hit singles with no other Supremes on them, and with a publicity campaign to announce her exit from the group, she still debuted to a half filled venue. After all of that, half filled? In 1970? Wow. I imagine Diana Ross, solo artist, in 1966/67 would have probably at least filled half a house, but I think if she were ever going to be the DIANA ROSS that she would eventually become, she would've endured a few years of so-so success before fulfilling her destiny. And I believe Gordy knew that. There may have been a contemplation of the question "can Diane make it as a solo artist", but I doubt if it was ever given any real consideration in 1966.

Gives you a lot to ponder. I'm guessing the public DIDN'T want a solo Diana Ross at all. People back then really had this thing about groups and that if a member left to become a soloist and that group was like REAL popular, it would feel like a betrayal of some sorts. The Beatles went through that during the same time Motown was pushing Diana in front. John Lennon and George Harrison had side projects before they split. When Lennon released his first solo album, instead of releasing it under his name, he released it as Plastic Ono Band and had his wife Yoko record a solo album with him. Paul and George also released solo albums in 1970 and among those three, George's proved to be the most successful [[All Things Must Pass) but people kept begging for a Beatles reunion because for them, it was odd that arguably the most successful recording group in music history would be apart.

I imagine for The Supremes, it was the same. No one was here for Florence's efforts, Diana performed to half-filled audiences and when Mary released her solo efforts, she was shrugged off. Diana had to work twice as hard to prove herself as a soloist especially since Motown was putting all that money to try to boost her up as the black Streisand. By 1972, that transition from star to superstar finally took heed. 1972-73 was really when Diana Ross became DIANA ROSS IMHO.

Nowadays if a group broke up, people who were fans of this member or that member CAN'T WAIT for their solo projects to come out but that wasn't true in 1966.

midnightman
08-03-2018, 11:15 AM
You betcha. It happens all of the time. And just how nasty is it to require that someone not receive future royalties on the work they put in? Had Flo had quality legal counsel I'd like to think she would have been informed on what a bad idea that was.

At that point in her life, Florence just wanted to move on. She didn't even think of legal matters like that. She was still practically a kid when she was forced out of the group [[at age 24) so I don't think she knew anything about how royalties work. But then again, I doubt most of the artists who signed with Motown knew anything about business. All they knew is they could either sing, perform and/or write and that was enough for them to want to get into the business. No one was thinking they were signing their rights away to anything, be it their group name or any future royalties or signed away any chance they had in owning their own copyrights. I mean even the writers had to sell their works to JOBETE instead of setting up their own publishing companies! But of course Motown wasn't the first label where that mess was going on. Motown did their best to look after their artists when they signed though, true, but they sure weren't gonna be there for their future.

It took years for any act [[AFTER Mary Wells of course) who signed with Motown to fight for rights [[like the Temptations fighting to keep their name in their control, Stevie Wonder negotiations that led Stevie to own his post-1970 material, Marvin to be allowed to produce himself, Teena Marie suing Motown to continue to get royalties from Motown after wanting to join another label; i.e., the Brockert Initiative, etc.).

So imagine how three girls from the projects felt when they realized that all the stuff they were getting were not gonna continue when they did finally leave Motown and had to make it on their own; two of them made it out just fine [[especially ONE of the two) while the other unfortunately couldn't make that transition.

PeaceNHarmony
08-03-2018, 12:05 PM
LOL. I wouldnt hold your breath for that one coming to theaters anytime soon.
Why. Ms. Roberta! You SHOCK me with your cynicism! Surely this will be the first joint venture between Spike Lee and Steven Spielberg and sweep every award in next year's awards season. Or, not. IF, that is, Lee and Spielberg can possibly top the sheer magnificence of the utterly transcendent and redefining 'Autopsy'. :o

Roberta75
08-03-2018, 12:12 PM
Why. Ms. Roberta! You SHOCK me with your cynicism! Surely this will be the first joint venture between Spike Lee and Steven Spielberg and sweep every award in next year's awards season. Or, not.

If you want to know what a real sh*t show looks like read this article on the proposed Blondie movie that was a pure con job. Peter Benjaminsen got played like fiddle. A Flo Ballard movie has about as much chance of happening as a movie based on Mary Wilsons Dreamgirl. Sadly most of todays generation thinks the Dreamgirl movie styarring Jenifer Hudson and Beyonce is the REAL story of the Supremes.

Read this please it tells what a mess the Blondie movie was before it got canned.

https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-news/the-lost-supreme-and-a-classic-hollywood-con-75016/

PeaceNHarmony
08-03-2018, 12:28 PM
If you want to know what a real sh*t show looks like read this article on the proposed Blondie movie that was a pure con job. Peter Benjaminsen got played like fiddle. A Flo Ballard movie has about as much chance of happening as a movie based on Mary Wilsons Dreamgirl. Sadly most of todays generation thinks the Dreamgirl movie styarring Jenifer Hudson and Beyonce is the REAL story of the Supremes.

Read this please it tells what a mess the Blondie movie was before it got canned.

https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-news/the-lost-supreme-and-a-classic-hollywood-con-75016/
That's a very interesting article, though a sad one. If handled correctly [[as if ...) a Ballard movie could be a good cautionary piece, as Florence is emblematic of so many talented people who are given the world on a silver platter then lose it all. But most of us know that those who are waiting for an FB film are really just looking for another excuse to portray Florence as a victim of Mary Wilson, Berry Gordy, and the always-fickle record buying public.. You be well, Ms. Roberta!

BayouMotownMan
08-03-2018, 01:12 PM
[QUOTE=marv2;473179]Alright look, I'm not here to argue with someone that never knows what he is talking about. You have to get what little bits I and perhaps some others give you! Trust me, I'll never give it all up here or anywhere else. So to humor you. Go here and listen closely at 7:58 in this interview. This is also not the first time I've heard these numbers. Like I said earlier, most of the stuff you think you know is wrong!

Well Marv I have asked this of you before and never got an answer and I fully expect not to get one this time. What are you credentials?

How many books on Motown have your participated in?
How many articles on Motown have you written?
How many interviews with Motown staff have you done?
How many CD compilations have you participated in?
How many times have you been interviewed on a Motown subject?

aarondillon2011@gmail.com
08-03-2018, 01:18 PM
Also a true statement.

Do also consider that many employers, however, "push" their employees to quit or into behavior that warrants firing them. In the modern hellscape of American labor laws, lax as they are, this means the employee doesn't get unemployment compensation. How many of us have been in jobs so bad the employer forced us out? I have. I don't know if this was Flo's situation, but I can certainly empathize were it so.

This is very true. Something I have endured many times. Nothing warrants bad behavior when the person goes out of their way to do it, but when other employees, managers, supervisors are pushing buttons, antagonizing someone, harassing, purposely giving that employee a hard time you have to be a person to speak up and put a stop to it. I personally also know what it is like to not have anyone else on your side and stick up for me. It's a tuff situation. As far as Florence is concerned, there were many instances that happened in the Supremes, and have been documented, where she had every right to speak up and some situations that may have gone too far. When someone has power over you, where they think they can talk to you and treat you anyway they want. It
's a disgusting and degrading situation and totally unacceptable whether you are singer, actor or regular blue-collar worker in a factory.

Roberta75
08-03-2018, 01:23 PM
That's a very interesting article, though a sad one. If handled correctly [[as if ...) a Ballard movie could be a good cautionary piece, as Florence is emblematic of so many talented people who are given the world on a silver platter then lose it all. But most of us know that those who are waiting for an FB film are really just looking for another excuse to portray Florence as a victim of Mary Wilson, Berry Gordy, and the always-fickle record buying public.. You be well, Ms. Roberta!

Thank you dear, you be well too.

vgalindo
08-03-2018, 01:24 PM
If you want to know what a real sh*t show looks like read this article on the proposed Blondie movie that was a pure con job. Peter Benjaminsen got played like fiddle. A Flo Ballard movie has about as much chance of happening as a movie based on Mary Wilsons Dreamgirl. Sadly most of todays generation thinks the Dreamgirl movie styarring Jenifer Hudson and Beyonce is the REAL story of the Supremes.

Read this please it tells what a mess the Blondie movie was before it got canned.

https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-news/the-lost-supreme-and-a-classic-hollywood-con-75016/
Wow. Thank you Roberta. That was a very interesting read.

PeaceNHarmony
08-03-2018, 01:26 PM
This is very true. Something I have endured many times. Nothing warrants bad behavior when the person goes out of their way to do it, but when other employees, managers, supervisors are pushing buttons, antagonizing someone, harassing, purposely giving that employee a hard time you have to be a person to speak up and put a stop to it. I personally also know what it is like to not have anyone else on your side and stick up for me. It's a tuff situation. As far as Florence is concerned, there were many instances that happened in the Supremes, and have been documented, where she had every right to speak up and some situations that may have gone too far. When someone has power over you, where they think they can talk to you and treat you anyway they want. It
's a disgusting and degrading situation and totally unacceptable whether you are singer, actor or regular blue-collar worker in a factory.

And unfortunately, sometimes a popular co-worker needs to be let go because s/he is simply not contributing at the required level of commitment.

PeaceNHarmony
08-03-2018, 01:37 PM
Wow. Thank you Roberta. That was a very interesting read.
Sure was. There's lots of tax-loss chicanery in showbiz [[best expressed in satirical fashion in Mel Brooks' 'The Producers') and it's not uncommon for a shyster to 'option' a screenplay [[for which there is little to no chance of actual production), write expenses against the optioned screenplay, then declare the project as a tax deduction when no viable commitments can be found to produce the project.

Roberta75
08-03-2018, 03:17 PM
Wow. Thank you Roberta. That was a very interesting read.

Welcome dear.

midnightman
08-03-2018, 05:27 PM
If you want to know what a real sh*t show looks like read this article on the proposed Blondie movie that was a pure con job. Peter Benjaminsen got played like fiddle. A Flo Ballard movie has about as much chance of happening as a movie based on Mary Wilsons Dreamgirl. Sadly most of todays generation thinks the Dreamgirl movie styarring Jenifer Hudson and Beyonce is the REAL story of the Supremes.

Read this please it tells what a mess the Blondie movie was before it got canned.

https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-news/the-lost-supreme-and-a-classic-hollywood-con-75016/

Stunning thing about this is Peter supposedly put more trust in this con artist than he did with Faith Evans and anyone else who saw through the con artist's scheme.

At the end, he was like "well there goes any chance of my book being a movie". WELP!

thanxal
08-03-2018, 08:56 PM
I'm getting the feeling that you're not a fan of the bugs, huh? LOL [[Me either, btw. Great songwriters they were, though.)
I just think the Supremes were better. That’s all.

thanxal
08-03-2018, 09:02 PM
If you want to know what a real sh*t show looks like read this article on the proposed Blondie movie that was a pure con job. Peter Benjaminsen got played like fiddle. A Flo Ballard movie has about as much chance of happening as a movie based on Mary Wilsons Dreamgirl. Sadly most of todays generation thinks the Dreamgirl movie styarring Jenifer Hudson and Beyonce is the REAL story of the Supremes.

Read this please it tells what a mess the Blondie movie was before it got canned.

https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-news/the-lost-supreme-and-a-classic-hollywood-con-75016/

Thank you Roberta. I’ve heard bit and pieces of that story but never realized how bad the actual events were. Wow!

Roberta75
08-03-2018, 10:09 PM
Thank you Roberta. I’ve heard bit and pieces of that story but never realized how bad the actual events were. Wow!

And thats only Benjaminsens version of the events. Im sure Faith Evans has another real interesting version.

midnightman
08-04-2018, 12:12 AM
I wanna get Faith's version of events my darn self. I don't trust Peter for some reason.

vgalindo
08-04-2018, 02:51 AM
I wanna get Faith's version of events my darn self. I don't trust Peter for some reason.
I know what you mean. Same here.

Roberta75
08-04-2018, 03:41 AM
I wanna get Faith's version of events my darn self. I don't trust Peter for some reason.

Me neither. And I dont think theres much left on the 80 hours of interviews with Flo he claims to have or hed have released. Them by now. I think the 24 or 32 minutes hes already released have the most sallacious stuff on them imo.

Roberta75
08-04-2018, 03:44 AM
[QUOTE=marv2;473179]Alright look, I'm not here to argue with someone that never knows what he is talking about. You have to get what little bits I and perhaps some others give you! Trust me, I'll never give it all up here or anywhere else. So to humor you. Go here and listen closely at 7:58 in this interview. This is also not the first time I've heard these numbers. Like I said earlier, most of the stuff you think you know is wrong!

Well Marv I have asked this of you before and never got an answer and I fully expect not to get one this time. What are you credentials?

How many books on Motown have your participated in?
How many articles on Motown have you written?
How many interviews with Motown staff have you done?
How many CD compilations have you participated in?
How many times have you been interviewed on a Motown subject?

You ain't getting an answer this time either dear cause the answer is a big fat zero. LOL

TheMotownManiac
08-04-2018, 07:59 AM
Oh they made it tough for her. "Flo, you're too fat!", "Flo, you're drunk, go home..", "Flo, you're singing flat" yada, yada, yada. They tried it on her, but she wouldn't quit. She had to be fired. Had she quit, she would have lost most of any legal grounds she may have had. If she had the proper lawyer, Motown would had to cough up a whole lot more than the total $175,000 they offered her. Florence Ballard NEVER received an proper accounting of what she earned while at Motown. This all smells bad because she was left with Motown holding all of the power when they sent that snake Michael Roshkind to meet her that day at Northland in Southfiedl!

But Flo WAS fat, WAS drunk, WAS a mess. Quitting would not have affected her position if she had a lick of sense or at least chose a good attorney. It’s not Motown’s fault she screwed herself with bad choices. Mike Roshkind advised Flo NOT to take this deal. She was sad, depressed and over it when she left Vegas, but it took over 7 months to iron out her deal and she had time to think it out. She knew she didn’t get what she had earned, but did nothing about it. I can see Mary and Diana not rocking the boat, but The ship had sailed for Flo - she’d have been a hero if she had taken Motown to task. She felt betrayed by Diana and Mary but she put herself in the position to be hurt by them - and vice verse. No way did Diana and Mary want Flo to leave - but eventually they had no choice. I loved Flo a great deal and found her replacement sickening for years, but geez, look at it objectively: she was missing shows, personal appearances and recording dates - then was angry when she wasn’t on them. Folks who act out at work wind up not working there, period. I wish to heaven Flo would have demanded an accounting - she’d have had her million [[s) after all. I do not blame Motown for Flo’s financial woes. Yes, they were crooks - but she shoulda called them on it.

midnightman
08-04-2018, 11:22 AM
Me neither. And I dont think theres much left on the 80 hours of interviews with Flo he claims to have or hed have released. Them by now. I think the 24 or 32 minutes hes already released have the most sallacious stuff on them imo.

If there were 80 hours, most of it wasn't "juicy" enough. But even in those minutes she released, it wasn't as trashy as one would expect. Flo just explain matter-of-factly what went on. It seems like such a non-event, really.

midnightman
08-04-2018, 11:26 AM
But Flo WAS fat, WAS drunk, WAS a mess. Quitting would not have affected her position if she had a lick of sense or at least chose a good attorney. It’s not Motown’s fault she screwed herself with bad choices. Mike Roshkind advised Flo NOT to take this deal. She was sad, depressed and over it when she left Vegas, but it took over 7 months to iron out her deal and she had time to think it out. She knew she didn’t get what she had earned, but did nothing about it. I can see Mary and Diana not rocking the boat, but The ship had sailed for Flo - she’d have been a hero if she had taken Motown to task. She felt betrayed by Diana and Mary but she put herself in the position to be hurt by them - and vice verse. No way did Diana and Mary want Flo to leave - but eventually they had no choice. I loved Flo a great deal and found her replacement sickening for years, but geez, look at it objectively: she was missing shows, personal appearances and recording dates - then was angry when she wasn’t on them. Folks who act out at work wind up not working there, period. I wish to heaven Flo would have demanded an accounting - she’d have had her million [[s) after all. I do not blame Motown for Flo’s financial woes. Yes, they were crooks - but she shoulda called them on it.

Seven months were definitely long enough for Flo to renegotiate but she didn't. Marvin Gaye had better business sense by comparison! That's the saddest part. Flo, to me, doesn't seem like too much of a confrontational person [[unless she was drunk and she was in a very dark mood) so I can see why she didn't confront Motown with the deal she eventually settled with...

Even Mary and her cousin admitted that Flo played a large role in why things turned out the way it did for her in the Supremes on Unsung.

marv2
08-04-2018, 11:42 AM
Seven months were definitely long enough for Flo to renegotiate but she didn't. Marvin Gaye had better business sense by comparison! That's the saddest part. Flo, to me, doesn't seem like too much of a confrontational person [[unless she was drunk and she was in a very dark mood) so I can see why she didn't confront Motown with the deal she eventually settled with...

Even Mary and her cousin admitted that Flo played a large role in why things turned out the way it did for her in the Supremes on Unsung.

Florence was not a business person. Florence was a great singer that came out of the Detroit ghetto with an 11th grade education. Oh she could be plenty confrontational on a different level other than legally fighting a corporation. I know that none of them truly understood the real difference between great money and ok money. Berry Gordy knew this too and took advantage of the fact they all came from poor, working families. When you got nothing, a little something goes a long way. It wasn't until Jean Terrell came along, did nay of the Supremes question why they were being paid so little from the millions they were generating for the company.

Even Mary and her cousin admitted that Flo played a large role in why things turned out the way it did for her in the Supremes on Unsung.


This is why this program and "The Supremes Breaking the Band" are important. They reversed what was said and presented in the Unsung episode on Florence Ballard which was a fluff piece and anyone that knows Florence's story could tell immediately. Also, it is now clear that Peter Benjaminson has not released ALL of his taped interviews with Florence Ballard. I'd like to hear the complete, unedited, raw interview. I am also now wondering if there is more that has not been released from the interview she did with Dave Dials of WXYZ Channel 7 in Detroit.

Roberta75
08-04-2018, 01:08 PM
Florence was not a business person. Florence was a great singer that came out of the Detroit ghetto with an 11th grade education. Oh she could be plenty confrontational on a different level other than legally fighting a corporation. I know that none of them truly understood the real difference between great money and ok money. Berry Gordy knew this too and took advantage of the fact they all came from poor, working families. When you got nothing, a little something goes a long way. It wasn't until Jean Terrell came along, did nay of the Supremes question why they were being paid so little from the millions they were generating for the company.

Even Mary and her cousin admitted that Flo played a large role in why things turned out the way it did for her in the Supremes on Unsung.


This is why this program and "The Supremes Breaking the Band" are important. They reversed what was said and presented in the Unsung episode on Florence Ballard which was a fluff piece and anyone that knows Florence's story could tell immediately. Also, it is now clear that Peter Benjaminson has not released ALL of his taped interviews with Florence Ballard. I'd like to hear the complete, unedited, raw interview. I am also now wondering if there is more that has not been released from the interview she did with Dave Dials of WXYZ Channel 7 in Detroit.

If there was anything at all in Peter Benjaminsens taped interview he would have realesed them by know. I dont believe theres anything there in those tapes edited or unedited. Nobody but a few crooked hacks was interested in his book or tapes which is why the film he was peddling was a sham. We all know your not thinking of poor victimized Florence your just praying for more dirt on your lifes obbsession Diane Ross. Theres no movie coming all the books have been written and most people who remember and care for Florence are old. You seriously think that Breaking the Band and Autopsy were good balanced shows? They were thrown cheaply together with real cheesy reenactments and a road manager who ended by saying he LOVED Flo and Mary and DIANE. Mary Wilson probably got scale [[$1,000) for appearing. You were the one promoting that insane woman CD Mitchells ranting and raving youtube video that trashed Diana hour an hour. You even kissed CD Mitchells as* in the comments section. LOLOLOLOLOLOL https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NNqGRU5d_3E&t=159s

TheMotownManiac
08-04-2018, 05:18 PM
That nut case is a scream! We’ve had many laughs at the BS and faux class of the crazed woman. It amazes me that anyone with a tenth of a brain would buy her rhetoric. Lol. Sad and touching, honey.

midnightman
08-04-2018, 06:41 PM
Henry Gibson: "She was mad when she was let go but at the end, she knew she was the reason why she was let go from the group."

Henry: "Berry was running a well oiled machine [[The Supremes). He would've been a fool to let Florence ruin it."


HIS WORDS.

And he was her closest cousin...

Mary even said that she and Diana tried to help Florence out during this time Berry told her to get it together.

Seems when it's something that doesn't put the blame on Diana, people don't wanna hear it.

Also I'm not even giving that video any of my minutes... just ranting and telling half-truths...

marv2
08-04-2018, 09:55 PM
Henry Gibson: "She was mad when she was let go but at the end, she knew she was the reason why she was let go from the group."

Henry: "Berry was running a well oiled machine [[The Supremes). He would've been a fool to let Florence ruin it."


HIS WORDS.

And he was her closest cousin...

Mary even said that she and Diana tried to help Florence out during this time Berry told her to get it together.

Seems when it's something that doesn't put the blame on Diana, people don't wanna hear it.

Also I'm not even giving that video any of my minutes... just ranting and telling half-truths...

I go with what Florence said about what was happening to her.......not what Henry Gibson her cousin or of "Laugh In" fame says! Everyone in Detroit knows that Diana Ross stabbed Florence and Mary in the back. Now people all over the World know. What a couple of her hardcore fans chose to believe doesn't matter to anyone. Berry Gordy used her and after witnessing her ruthlessness, would never marry her!

blackguy69
08-04-2018, 10:24 PM
Everyone here is beating a dead horse. How long are you going to keep lapping around without a conclusion.

marybrewster
08-04-2018, 10:54 PM
All I can add is that Peter B has certainly gotten his $$$'s worth out of those Flo Ballard interviews. A book, articles, TV shows, and almost a movie. I wonder how much kickback he's given to the Ballard Estate.

Roberta75
08-04-2018, 10:54 PM
I go with what Florence said about what was happening to her.......not what Henry Gibson her cousin or of "Laugh In" fame says! Everyone in Detroit knows that Diana Ross stabbed Florence and Mary in the back. Now people all over the World know. What a couple of her hardcore fans chose to believe doesn't matter to anyone. Berry Gordy used her and after witnessing her ruthlessness, would never marry her!

"People all over the world" LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL. You really think those bad produced on a dime shows on an obscure cable channel are gonna get a huge global audience. The delusional nonsense that you post here is laughable and real pitiful. Hehehehehehehehehehehehehehehe

midnightman
08-04-2018, 11:09 PM
All I can add is that Peter B has certainly gotten his $$$'s worth out of those Flo Ballard interviews. A book, articles, TV shows, and almost a movie. I wonder how much kickback he's given to the Ballard Estate.

My guess is NONE. I feel sorry for Florence's kids. They're ALWAYS getting ripped off!

Jimi LaLumia
08-05-2018, 11:46 AM
Miss Ross takes good care of the Ballard kids from what I understand..

milven
08-05-2018, 12:23 PM
Miss Ross takes good care of the Ballard kids from what I understand..

Well , that's nice, but these "children" are middle aged adults now. Somewhere along the way, they should have found or been given the tools to take care of themselves. At this point, they should no longer be regarded as victumns.

marybrewster
08-05-2018, 12:29 PM
By all means, these "girls" are grandmothers. Hardly the children they're remembered to be.

midnightman
08-05-2018, 12:30 PM
Just looked up Flo's Wikipedia: Nichole and Michelle are 50 and Lisa is 47. They have kids and grandkids now.

marv2
08-05-2018, 01:45 PM
Well , that's nice, but these "children" are middle aged adults now. Somewhere along the way, they should have found or been given the tools to take care of themselves. At this point, they should no longer be regarded as victumns.

Nicole's son is a rapper with several videos of his work up on Youtube.

marv2
08-05-2018, 01:47 PM
Just looked up Flo's Wikipedia: Nichole and Michelle are 50 and Lisa is 47. They have kids and grandkids now.

Time flies doesn't it?

woodward
08-05-2018, 02:17 PM
Here is the Autopsy that was aired on television. The station that aired it is not commonly available to many people.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qGfqBXN82xA

marv2
08-05-2018, 02:31 PM
Here is the Autopsy that was aired on television. The station that aired it is not commonly available to many people.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qGfqBXN82xA

Thank you Woodward! We don't get Reelz on our cable system.

Roberta75
08-05-2018, 04:15 PM
https://soulfuldetroit.com/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by woodward https://soulfuldetroit.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png [[https://soulfuldetroit.com/showthread.php?p=473857#post473857)
Here is the Autopsy that was aired on television. The station that aired it is not commonly available to many people.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qGfqBXN82xA


Thank you Woodward! We don't get Reelz on our cable system.

Reelz isnt on your cable or on most cable systems but yesterday you were predicting it would be seen globally and a new generation would find out how Diane and Berry "supposedly" stabbed Florence in the back. LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL You cant even keep your own tall tales straight. Heheheheheheheheh

PeaceNHarmony
08-05-2018, 07:33 PM
https://soulfuldetroit.com/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by woodward https://soulfuldetroit.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png [[https://soulfuldetroit.com/showthread.php?p=473857#post473857)
Here is the Autopsy that was aired on television. The station that aired it is not commonly available to many people.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qGfqBXN82xA



Reelz isnt on your cable or on most cable systems but yesterday you were predicting it would be seen globally and a new generation would find out how Diane and Berry "supposedly" stabbed Florence in the back. LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL You cant even keep your own tall tales straight. Heheheheheheheheh

That comment seems to have someone I've blocked but it seems kinda Trumpy in its twisted logic! [['I didn't meet, but if I did meet, which I did, I did not collude, which is not even a crime even if I did, which maybe I did but HILLARY CLINTON!)

PeaceNHarmony
08-05-2018, 07:35 PM
Miss Ross takes good care of the Ballard kids from what I understand..
I do think it's commonly well understand that our Miss Ross is the most generous of Motowners so I would not be surprised at this.

midnightman
08-05-2018, 07:43 PM
Thanks Roberta for the docu.

I noticed the first mistake: August 1975?!?!

It was August 1974!!! The fact it started with that, you know it's gonna be all wrong! WTH!?! I may have erred that Magic Mountain was AT Disneyland, but they messed up far worst!

Disrespect to Flo!

Also 1957 being the date of her rape incident when it was 1960??? JFC...

One surprise is she had a boyfriend prior to Tommy. Marrying Roger Pearson could've changed things too.

PeaceNHarmony
08-05-2018, 07:57 PM
I wonder if the show made mention that rumour has it that Mary fought a floated-Flo return to the Supremes idea due to her own insecurity, knowing that Flo was so much more popular than Mary? It was similar to the way Mary poisoned Cindy out of RTL.

marv2
08-05-2018, 08:02 PM
I wonder if the show made mention that rumour has it that Mary fought a floated-Flo return to the Supremes idea due to her own insecurity, knowing that Flo was so much more popular than Mary? It was similar to the way Mary poisoned Cindy out of RTL.

You're grasping! Florence could not come back to the Supremes whether Mary Wilson wanted it or not. The Supremes were still signed to Motown and Berry Gordy still owned Motown! There was no way he was letting Florence Ballard back in! Get out of Dodge with that mess..........LOL!

midnightman
08-05-2018, 08:23 PM
I loved also how they examined tabloid theories before coming to the conclusion that her death was from an un-diagnosed disease that wasn't hereditary resulting in how the autopsy determined it was coronary thrombosis that took her out at just 32 years old. They really thought that brown substance was suspicious? Jesus. And they keep repeating 5'11 [[least the doctor is), but she looked shorter than that!

RanRan79
08-06-2018, 10:11 AM
I imagine for The Supremes, it was the same. No one was here for Florence's efforts, Diana performed to half-filled audiences and when Mary released her solo efforts, she was shrugged off.

Well the three of them entered into solo careers under different circumstances. Flo had the unfortunate situation of not being able to capitalize off of her time as a Supreme. While diehard fans knew each of the girls' names, the general public did not, not even Diana's until the group's name change. Flo also debuted with what most people think was never going to be a hit record. Couple that with the fact that her solo career in nearly every way was mismanaged and it's no surprise that she didn't come out of the gate taking the music world by storm.

I think Mary would have had a better showing- bad album and all- had Motown been behind her. Also Mary seemed to suffer from mismanagement also, even being stunted by her own inability to see the possibilities. I still believe perhaps the number one career mistake Mary made was that she didn't use Dreamgirl to capitalize on a recording career. She probably would've gotten at least a top 20 hit on anything just from the djs spinning her single off of the publicity from the book.

On the other hand, when Diana hit the scene she might as well have had a full military backing. She had the whole Motown machine- and Mr. Motown himself- behind her, basically two years of a solo test run [[as a Supreme) and still people weren't paying her much attention. Thankfully A&S had the genius idea to rework "Aint No Mountain High Enough" to fit Ross and the rest is history.

RanRan79
08-06-2018, 10:23 AM
I don't trust Peter for some reason.

Neither do I. He's a sensationalist, not someone interested in the whole truth. When his Flo book came out, I asked him why didn't he include the information about Diana trying to save Flo's house. He asked me what evidence is there that this happened and I told him the truth, that the only info I had about it was from JRandyT's book in which it is claimed that the canceled check existed. His response to me was that if I could produce that check he'd add it to a future update of the book. It was at that point that I knew what I was dealing with. Now, is there a check for Flo's home from Diana? Was there ever? I don't know. At this point it's hearsay and really only ever mentioned by JRandyT. Not saying he made it up, it could have been told to him, just saying that's where the information comes from. But Peter included lots of things in his book that was hearsay, so I could only wonder what made this particular hearsay less worthy of being included than any other? Well of course the answer to that is that if you suggest that Diana tried to help Flo, she doesn't look so much like the evil bitch he wanted to portray. Clearly that was the angle he was going for, the "look what Diana did to Florence" angle. There was even a passage in the book in which he accused Diana of taking a swipe at Flo's family about them only taking from Flo and not giving anything back, when in fact it was Mary who wrote that in her second book. I'm forever grateful that Benjaminson wrote the book and got it published, but he aint shit in my book. Just another someone using an angle to make some cash. I prefer a book written by someone with no skin in the game but only interested in the truth.

RanRan79
08-06-2018, 10:25 AM
Me neither. And I dont think theres much left on the 80 hours of interviews with Flo he claims to have or hed have released. Them by now. I think the 24 or 32 minutes hes already released have the most sallacious stuff on them imo.

Peter did say there was some things on the tapes that Flo said about other artists that he didn't want to release as some of the people were still alive. I never understood what difference that made. Of the things Flo said about Gordy, Ross and Wilson, who are all still alive, why should anyone else have been off limits? Salacious or not, I still would love to hear the full interview, although I suspect we never will as we might hear things about Diana that aren't all so negative.

RanRan79
08-06-2018, 10:31 AM
Seems when it's something that doesn't put the blame on Diana, people don't wanna hear it.

And that's the problem. That and the fact that, for some others, if there is blame to put on Diana, they don't want to hear it. The Supremes were human. There was enough blame about what was going on to go around. Flo was a victim but she wasn't innocent. Diana damn sure was innocent, but she wasn't evil either. But it seems like folks prefer to join the Flo Victim Club [[also known as the Diana Bitch Club) or the Diana Naturally Rose To Her Position Club [[also known as the Flo Wasn't Nothing More Than An Ooh Ahh'er Who Should Have Been Glad To Do Even That Club).

RanRan79
08-06-2018, 10:32 AM
My guess is NONE. I feel sorry for Florence's kids. They're ALWAYS getting ripped off!

I think a portion of the profits did go to the girls. How big a portion I don't know, but according to Benjaminson the girls received profits from the book.

RanRan79
08-06-2018, 10:37 AM
Well , that's nice, but these "children" are middle aged adults now. Somewhere along the way, they should have found or been given the tools to take care of themselves. At this point, they should no longer be regarded as victumns.

I don't believe Diana does anything for them unless they ask. A couple years ago Lisa mentioned on Facebook that she actually hadn't been in contact with Diana for a few years. Those women seem to be standing on their own. What wouldn't surprise me is that if the girls need Diana- or Mary- for anything, that the two women do what they can. It would come as no surprise to me that if Diana or Mary weren't around and Flo was still here that she would do what she could for Diana and Mary's children. But Diana taking care of Flo's children is nothing more than feeding into a negative narrative of Flo's children while trying to uplift Diana in the process. I call bullshit. [[Not on you Milven, but the comment you responded to.)

RanRan79
08-06-2018, 10:40 AM
One surprise is she had a boyfriend prior to Tommy. Marrying Roger Pearson could've changed things too.

Florence had several boyfriends prior to Tommy. I've never believed Pearson was anything more than a friend and fan.

PeaceNHarmony
08-06-2018, 11:08 AM
I have a great idea! The Gaye family can finance a Florence movie with the $ they will from law suits, then when the movie is completed they can sue the film makers! ;)

midnightman
08-06-2018, 12:09 PM
Florence had several boyfriends prior to Tommy. I've never believed Pearson was anything more than a friend and fan.

Yeah, when I saw the show, he definitely sound more fanboy-ish.

midnightman
08-06-2018, 12:12 PM
And that's the problem. That and the fact that, for some others, if there is blame to put on Diana, they don't want to hear it. The Supremes were human. There was enough blame about what was going on to go around. Flo was a victim but she wasn't innocent. Diana damn sure was innocent, but she wasn't evil either. But it seems like folks prefer to join the Flo Victim Club [[also known as the Diana Bitch Club) or the Diana Naturally Rose To Her Position Club [[also known as the Flo Wasn't Nothing More Than An Ooh Ahh'er Who Should Have Been Glad To Do Even That Club).

Yeah, like I said, the Supremes were very young women just learning about things so naturally they would clash even if it was over little stuff. And they were far from the only act to deal with issues while they were still green to the business they had agreed to get into. Diana, Flo and Mary were wide-eyed kids who probably thought that what they did was right at the time.

midnightman
08-06-2018, 12:14 PM
Peter did say there was some things on the tapes that Flo said about other artists that he didn't want to release as some of the people were still alive. I never understood what difference that made. Of the things Flo said about Gordy, Ross and Wilson, who are all still alive, why should anyone else have been off limits? Salacious or not, I still would love to hear the full interview, although I suspect we never will as we might hear things about Diana that aren't all so negative.

Now that's interesting! Why did he leave those out? What were they aimed at? I wonder if she had something negative to say about Mary Wells since that was another subject Peter made into a biography. Or Smokey. Or whatever. I did noticed more audio from the Autopsy show but it seemed all of it was aimed at Berry, who is still pretty much alive at 89.

sup_fan
08-06-2018, 12:18 PM
I don't believe Diana does anything for them unless they ask. A couple years ago Lisa mentioned on Facebook that she actually hadn't been in contact with Diana for a few years. Those women seem to be standing on their own. What wouldn't surprise me is that if the girls need Diana- or Mary- for anything, that the two women do what they can. It would come as no surprise to me that if Diana or Mary weren't around and Flo was still here that she would do what she could for Diana and Mary's children. But Diana taking care of Flo's children is nothing more than feeding into a negative narrative of Flo's children while trying to uplift Diana in the process. I call bullshit. [[Not on you Milven, but the comment you responded to.)

memory is cloudy here but i believe Diana recently covered the medical expenses for one of the girls. i dont know if it was cancer, an operation or what now. but i believe she paid for everything

Diana has been generous with them over the years but they are adults and should be able to support themselves. She established trusts for them upon Flo's death. now whether or not they've been able to really benefit from that money, i don't know. They seem to have made their lives and are living them.

midnightman
08-06-2018, 12:31 PM
They might be living comfortably in Detroit now?

I know at one point one of them had to apply for welfare though so it may not be all of them?

Jimi LaLumia
08-06-2018, 12:35 PM
at the end of the day, Florence Ballard, God love her, destroyed Florence Ballard..no one forced her to smoke, no one forced her to drink, no one forced her to put on weight etc. we all have disappointments in life, big and small, and how we react is the choice/choices we make.. period..

midnightman
08-06-2018, 12:58 PM
Well her bouts with depression were pretty well known but she was really trying in the last year and a half of her life. She really was!

She didn't know she was killing herself. :[[

reese
08-06-2018, 01:43 PM
memory is cloudy here but i believe Diana recently covered the medical expenses for one of the girls. i dont know if it was cancer, an operation or what now. but i believe she paid for everything

Diana has been generous with them over the years but they are adults and should be able to support themselves. She established trusts for them upon Flo's death. now whether or not they've been able to really benefit from that money, i don't know. They seem to have made their lives and are living them.

According to J. Randy's last book, one of the twins had a benign brain tumor. The morning of the surgery, Diana called and prayed with her. Then she offered to pay her medical expenses, which she did.

The youngest daughter, Lisa, has a Facebook page. At one point, someone wrote something not so nice about Diana. Lisa said that she respected the person's opinion, but loved Diana and concentrated on how Diana treated she and her sisters.

RanRan79
08-06-2018, 02:31 PM
They might be living comfortably in Detroit now?

I know at one point one of them had to apply for welfare though so it may not be all of them?

I think during the interview they did with Inside Edition[[?) around 2007, all of them stated they were receiving assistance. Lots of people have to turn to welfare to make ends meet. When you consider the possibilities of how much Flo's music makes in royalties, it sucks that her children are not reaping those benefits, no matter how "small" the benefits are now. The royalties certainly weren't always small. But Flo's girls seem to be doing okay. They probably have a lot of their mother in them, falling down but finding a way to bounce back.

Roberta75
08-06-2018, 03:12 PM
I think during the interview they did with Inside Edition[[?) around 2007, all of them stated they were receiving assistance. Lots of people have to turn to welfare to make ends meet. When you consider the possibilities of how much Flo's music makes in royalties, it sucks that her children are not reaping those benefits, no matter how "small" the benefits are now. The royalties certainly weren't always small. But Flo's girls seem to be doing okay. They probably have a lot of their mother in them, falling down but finding a way to bounce back.

Lisa has a real good job at an automotive affiliatted company in Detroit which I wont name to respect her privacy. Lisa is doing real well and just saw Mary in Detroit at the River concert and saw Diana at Chene Park in the fall of 2106. Lisa loves both Diana and Mary.

midnightman
08-06-2018, 03:34 PM
Cool to hear about Lisa!

midnightman
08-06-2018, 03:36 PM
I think during the interview they did with Inside Edition[[?) around 2007, all of them stated they were receiving assistance. Lots of people have to turn to welfare to make ends meet. When you consider the possibilities of how much Flo's music makes in royalties, it sucks that her children are not reaping those benefits, no matter how "small" the benefits are now. The royalties certainly weren't always small. But Flo's girls seem to be doing okay. They probably have a lot of their mother in them, falling down but finding a way to bounce back.

Right. They all do seem to be doing well regardless.

TheMotownManiac
08-06-2018, 04:15 PM
I wonder if the show made mention that rumour has it that Mary fought a floated-Flo return to the Supremes idea due to her own insecurity, knowing that Flo was so much more popular than Mary? It was similar to the way Mary poisoned Cindy out of RTL.

I never heard that, but I doubt that Mary wanted Flo back anyway. Mary was trying to be the star of the group and adding Flo would kill that idea. I don’t think Gordy would let a Flo back in unless she was totally clean and together - plus able to raise her kids and tour. Lotsa ifs here. She could have replaced Lynda, but even if she did come back - she wasn’t gonna be the lead. It would have helped the group a great deal if she did cone back as, next to Diana, she was by far the fave of all Supremes.