Whitney Houston & Brother - Abuse Allegation - Dee Dee Warwick

[jobeterob]

https://www.cbc.ca/radio/q/friday-july-6-2018-kevin-macdonald-zadie-smith-and-more-1.4735252/whitney-houston-doc-director-on-metoo-and-bringing-molestation-allegations-to-light-1.4735325

[PeaceNHarmony]

I do look forward to seeing this film. Whitney is a home-girl, born & raised barely 5 miles from me. I think we keep looking for answers ...

[jobeterob]

I see the article says the movie shows some different side of Whitney and the abuse continues to cause trouble for Gary

[Cincinnati_Kid]

Is this the movie directed by Angela Bassett? I believe there is more than one biopic on her life.

[thommg]

Is this the movie directed by Angela Bassett? I believe there is more than one biopic on her life.

This is a documentary that has been authorized by the Whitney Houston estate and has just been released. Angela Bassett's Whitney biopic was a made for TV movie that aired a few years back.

[carlo]

I managed to catch an early press screening of the doc last week and it was tremendously well done, although of course quite sad. The intense build-up to the end of her life really got to me and brought back the deep sadness I experienced when she had passed. It was truthful without being trashy. It did not go into a ton of detail about her various albums, music and awards. It focused more on the human side of Whitney and what she went through. It also covered the social impact of some major career moments, such as her singing the Star Spangled Banner and visiting South Africa during the Bodyguard Tour. The way they were able to piece together different interviews, audio and video clips really made you feel the impact of these historical events in the context of the era.

For those who are hoping for a mostly positive and upbeat documentary, I would kindly suggest to steer-clear of this. You will not enjoy it. It does however provide an honest account of her life and her family, from those who loved and knew her best. Unfortunately she did not live an overwhelmingly positive life. There was a lot of self-destructive behaviour, which is explained by her family history and the abuse. It connected the pieces of the puzzle for me, such as the real reason of why Robyn left in the end. There have been various stories over the years of how this went down, but this documentary finally puts to rest many of those stories. Whitney was always a mysterious woman.

Being a big fan of Whitney, I would have also loved a glowingly positive documentary, but at the same time, I think we needed the truth from the estate in order to finally put all of the controversy and rumours to rest. There are so many different versions of stories out there. This doc will hopefully allow her to finally rest in peace. You will feel sad after watching it, but I also walked away with a deeper love for her. She tried to be so strong for so long and still managed to give us more than we could have ever asked for.

[Cincinnati_Kid]

This is a documentary that has been authorized by the Whitney Houston estate and has just been released. Angela Bassett's Whitney biopic was a made for TV movie that aired a few years back.

Thanks for the heads up.

[Guy]

I managed to catch an early press screening of the doc last week and it was tremendously well done, although of course quite sad. The intense build-up to the end of her life really got to me and brought back the deep sadness I experienced when she had passed. It was truthful without being trashy. It did not go into a ton of detail about her various albums, music and awards. It focused more on the human side of Whitney and what she went through. It also covered the social impact of some major career moments, such as her singing the Star Spangled Banner and visiting South Africa during the Bodyguard Tour. The way they were able to piece together different interviews, audio and video clips really made you feel the impact of these historical events in the context of the era.

For those who are hoping for a mostly positive and upbeat documentary, I would kindly suggest to steer-clear of this. You will not enjoy it. It does however provide an honest account of her life and her family, from those who loved and knew her best. Unfortunately she did not live an overwhelmingly positive life. There was a lot of self-destructive behaviour, which is explained by her family history and the abuse. It connected the pieces of the puzzle for me, such as the real reason of why Robyn left in the end. There have been various stories over the years of how this went down, but this documentary finally puts to rest many of those stories. Whitney was always a mysterious woman.

Being a big fan of Whitney, I would have also loved a glowingly positive documentary, but at the same time, I think we needed the truth from the estate in order to finally put all of the controversy and rumours to rest. There are so many different versions of stories out there. This doc will hopefully allow her to finally rest in peace. You will feel sad after watching it, but I also walked away with a deeper love for her. She tried to be so strong for so long and still managed to give us more than we could have ever asked for.

Some have suggested that her devoutly religious, and anti-gay, family has concocted the story of abuse by Dee Dee. As it is preferable for them to have the public believe that she was abused and this caused sexual confusion, rather than her just being a woman who desired a same-sex relationship. Her "confusion" also takes some heat off the family for being judgmental and disapproving of her relationship with a woman. After all, she wasn't really a lesbian, she was just "confused."

Many people fault her family for her demise because they were unsupportive, burdensome and contemptuous. In the process, it is a final insult to Dee Dee who was ostracized by her family for openly being in same-sex relationships. Dee Dee also had debilitating addiction issues.

Or...it could be just as presented in the documentary. How will we ever know what is true?

[midnightman]

In the film, someone described her as "sexually fluid" and another said she was sexually active with both men and women. In the previous docu, they said she was bisexual.

Her family, as far as I know, are still in denial over a same-sex relationship with Robyn in the film so it doesn't "solve" anything.

Many LGBT folks have been sexually abused, don't mean we're confused.

[luke]

Abuse is abuse. It doesn’t cause sexuality. Whitney was a drug addict because she had the disease of addiction.

[soulster]

I 100% believe Whitney was sexually abused. A lot of sexual abuse victims become drug addicts.

[smallworld]

I think we needed the truth from the estate in order to finally put all of the controversy and rumours to rest.

This is the same estate that put Bobbi Kristina to work in a Houston reality TV show scarcely three months after Whitney's death, correct? I'm a little skeptical about their commitment to truth. Their commitment to making money off Whitney is without question.

[carlo]

This is the same estate that put Bobbi Kristina to work in a Houston reality TV show scarcely three months after Whitney's death, correct? I'm a little skeptical about their commitment to truth. Their commitment to making money off Whitney is without question.

Hmmm that is true. However it would not surprise me if they did the reality show in order to quickly pay off some major debt linked to Whitney's estate. Unfortunately her finances were not in good shape when she passed and while they could have pursued some other project to generate the needed funds, it would have likely taken some extra time, and perhaps they were desperate. But I agree that doing the reality show just did not look good...

[carlo]

Cissy has issued a statement on behalf of herself and Dionne, about the film and the allegations made against Dee Dee. Everything she is saying is very fair and I can't disagree.

https://people.com/music/whitney-houstons-mother-expresses-horror-over-new-claim-the-singer-was-molested-by-dee-dee-warwick/

[soulster]

Cissy has issued a statement on behalf of herself and Dionne, about the film and the allegations made against Dee Dee. Everything she is saying is very fair and I can't disagree.

https://people.com/music/whitney-houstons-mother-expresses-horror-over-new-claim-the-singer-was-molested-by-dee-dee-warwick/

While understandable in this case, denial is a dangerous thing.

[carlo]

While understandable in this case, denial is a dangerous thing.

Yes, sounds like denial for sure. I only think that it is unfortunate that the entire situation could not have been handled better, amongst the various members of the family. Gary admitted he was abused by Dee Dee in the film, and Cissy and Dionne only found out two days before the first screening, likely when they were watching the film for the first time. Sounds like Gary and Pat are not on speaking terms with the rest of them. She doesn't seem to address Gary's confession at all in her statement.

[soulster]

When a famous family tries to show too much unity and harmony, chances are, they are far from it.

[motony]

she says pretty plainly that Dee dee Warwick never babysat her children and named who took care of them.Dee Dee Warwick was "on the road " pretty much too.People doing films ALWAYS have to spice them up but this is really going too far if not true & confirmed.

[Guy]

This is the same estate that put Bobbi Kristina to work in a Houston reality TV show scarcely three months after Whitney's death, correct? I'm a little skeptical about their commitment to truth. Their commitment to making money off Whitney is without question.

Preach! Tell it like it is.

[Roberta75]

While understandable in this case, denial is a dangerous thing.

Much as I love and admire Cissy Houston shes the one who told Oprah Winfrey that shed never accept her daughter Whitney as a lesbian lady. If Whitney had been allowed to have an open and loving relationship she would still be alive today imho. Miss Cissy showed her homophobic side to Oprah and thats not real Christian imo.

[Roberta75]

In the film, someone described her as "sexually fluid" and another said she was sexually active with both men and women. In the previous docu, they said she was bisexual.

Her family, as far as I know, are still in denial over a same-sex relationship with Robyn in the film so it doesn't "solve" anything.

Many LGBT folks have been sexually abused, don't mean we're confused.

Preach midnightman preach.

[midnightman]

Much as I love and admire Cissy Houston shes the one who told Oprah Winfrey that shed never accept her daughter Whitney as a lesbian lady. If Whitney had been allowed to have an open and loving relationship she would still be alive today imho. Miss Cissy showed her homophobic side to Oprah and thats not real Christian imo.

Whitney moved with Robyn immediately after graduation because she and Cissy were at odds if it's true that it was because Cissy cheated on her father though her father had cheated on her as well. Just a mess. And I'm sure she had issues because Robyn was openly gay. But yeah Cissy was one of those old school religious folk...

[soulster]

she says pretty plainly that Dee dee Warwick never babysat her children and named who took care of them.Dee Dee Warwick was "on the road " pretty much too.People doing films ALWAYS have to spice them up but this is really going too far if not true & confirmed.

People also lie to save face.

[soulster]

Much as I love and admire Cissy Houston shes the one who told Oprah Winfrey that shed never accept her daughter Whitney as a lesbian lady. If Whitney had been allowed to have an open and loving relationship she would still be alive today imho. Miss Cissy showed her homophobic side to Oprah and thats not real Christian imo.

We do not know if Whitney was a lesbian or a bi.

[Roberta75]

We do not know if Whitney was a lesbian or a bi.

Lesbian lady or Bisexual lady it wouldnt matter to Cissy because of her church views on same sex relationships which i couldnt be more opposed to.

[soulster]

Lesbian lady or Bisexual lady it wouldnt matter to Cissy because of her church views on same sex relationships which i couldnt be more opposed to.

I have no use for religion, the church, or a lot of so-called christians anyway, so...

[Guy]

It seems improbable that she would confide this to a casual friend but wouldn't tell her husband. If Bobby [[or Robyn) said it, I would believe it.

[Guy]

I still believe that Whitney was the victim of childhood sexual trauma. I only doubt the facts [[and the culprit) as presented by this family.

[jobeterob]

I heard a CBC interview with the Director of this film; I have not seen the film.

The Director said that it was Cissy that was driven to make Whitney a star - not Whitney that was driven to make Whitney a star.

And he said he was not comfortable going to Dionne to ask about her deceased sister but that Whitney's assistant was absolutely adamant that the story of the abuse be told.

I will see if I can find the interview and post it.

[jobeterob]

https://www.cbc.ca/radio/q/friday-july-6-2018-kevin-macdonald-zadie-smith-and-more-1.4735252/whitney-houston-doc-director-on-metoo-and-bringing-molestation-allegations-to-light-1.4735325

The interview is there.

[carlo]

It seems improbable that she would confide this to a casual friend but wouldn't tell her husband. If Bobby [[or Robyn) said it, I would believe it.

Mary Jones wasn't a casual friend.

Bobby was in the documentary but barely featured. He did not want to talk about any of Whitney's drug use or dark past. Robyn has not talked at all since Whitney passed, other than a small/short statement, remembering her friend.

[midnightman]

I heard a CBC interview with the Director of this film; I have not seen the film.

The Director said that it was Cissy that was driven to make Whitney a star - not Whitney that was driven to make Whitney a star.

And he said he was not comfortable going to Dionne to ask about her deceased sister but that Whitney's assistant was absolutely adamant that the story of the abuse be told.

I will see if I can find the interview and post it.

I got Cissy's book, apparently she probably would agree with this in some degree. Cissy was a huge success in gospel and as a rock and roll background vocalist and the Sweet Inspirations were one of the greatest all female vocal groups ever [[it was their version of Ike Turner's "I'm Blue" that Salt N Pepa sampled for "Shoop"), but she could never break through on her own as a pop singer [[she was the original vocalist behind "Midnight Train to Georgia" when it was "Midnight Plane to Houston"). So Whitney begins to sing and Cissy saw herself in Whitney and molded and shaped her to be the greatest vocalist ever [[which is true in retrospect IMHO).

[jobeterob]

Whitney was the voice!

[marv2]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_W3OY7cDZ_8

[rrussi]

I saw the movie! It was Mary Jones who said Whitney told her she was sexually abused by Dee Dee Warwick. She also said Whitney did not want her mother to know. I think her wish to not let Cissy know should have remained. Her brother said he was abused at the age of 9 or 10 by a female, but I did not hear him say who. Either way, I guess this may have been why Dionne was not interviewed for the movie or didn't do an interview for the movie.
And, what was Al Sharpton "boycotting" Whitney??? I don't remember that, but that was ridiculous in my opinion.

[PeaceNHarmony]

I saw the movie! It was Mary Jones who said Whitney told her she was sexually abused by Dee Dee Warwick. She also said Whitney did not want her mother to know. I think her wish to not let Cissy know should have remained. Her brother said he was abused at the age of 9 or 10 by a female, but I did not hear him say who. Either way, I guess this may have been why Dionne was not interviewed for the movie or didn't do an interview for the movie.
And, what was with Ralph Sharpton "boycotting" Whitney??? I don't remember that, but that was ridiculous in my opinion.
The movie is showing near me so I will see it. Did you think it was generally well-made and unbiased?

[rrussi]

Apparently there was a typo "Ralph Sharpton" instead of "Al Sharpton", but it's been corrected. He took out ads in publications to boycott "Whitey" Houston, claiming she's making music for non-blacks. So ridiculous! But people booed her after this at the Soul Train Music Awards and it shows the clip in the film. So I wonder what Al Sharpton thinks about Sarah Vaughn, Nat "King" Cole, Tina Turner, Charley Pride, Diana Ross, Dionne Warwick, Harry Belafonte and on and on....none of them made gospel or R&B records either. That was ridiculous and I wonder how I missed it back then. It was in the 90s.

[midnightman]

I saw the movie! It was Mary Jones who said Whitney told her she was sexually abused by Dee Dee Warwick. She also said Whitney did not want her mother to know. I think her wish to not let Cissy know should have remained. Her brother said he was abused at the age of 9 or 10 by a female, but I did not hear him say who. Either way, I guess this may have been why Dionne was not interviewed for the movie or didn't do an interview for the movie.
And, what was Al Sharpton "boycotting" Whitney??? I don't remember that, but that was ridiculous in my opinion.

Because she was a black woman who had a huge white following and had "turned" on her black audience, which was far from the truth to begin with. This was the same thing aimed at Michael Jackson but he didn't get a huge backlash like Whitney [[maybe because none of the civil rights leaders ever called him a "betrayer"). MJ was at the same Soul Train Awards as Whitney that year and when he received one of those lifetime honors, they all cheered and clapped for him.

[soulster]

And, what was Al Sharpton "boycotting" Whitney??? I don't remember that, but that was ridiculous in my opinion.

It's what is called a false memory created by a nasty rumor. It never happened, folks!

He took out ads in publications to boycott "Whitey" Houston, claiming she's making music for non-blacks. So ridiculous! But people booed her after this at the Soul Train Music Awards and it shows the clip in the film. So I wonder what Al Sharpton thinks about Sarah Vaughn, Nat "King" Cole, Tina Turner, Charley Pride, Diana Ross, Dionne Warwick, Harry Belafonte and on and on....none of them made gospel or R&B records either. That was ridiculous and I wonder how I missed it back then. It was in the 90s.

You missed it because it didn't happen.

People, we are living in an age where people who weren't there, or don't remember second-guess their memories, and fall to false news that is often repeated with absolutely no evidence.

And, now, things are convincingly Photoshopped and otherwise, digitally created to fool people into thinking things happened that never did. These are dangerous times.

People may have booed poor Whitney Houston for not being "Black" enough, But, if you don't remember any Boycotts, or remember Al Sharpton calling for one, it's a good bet that it never happened! And, you know the deal: tell, or hear a lie enough, and people start to believe it without one shred of evidence. It especially works when the lie is placed on a disliked person among a significant portion of the population. We all know how the lies of President Obama being born in Kenya are steadfastly believed by those who hate him, right? Well, enough people hate Al Sharpton to believe that he led a boycott of Whitney Houston.

[Boogiedown]

Doesn't ring true.
I doubt he'd be able to tap into much willing money to be shed toward such a noble "cause".
What would they be chanting?!
"Sound more black! Sound more black!"??? Lol!

[Guy]

Thank you, Soulster.

Almost every issue of "Jet" magazine is available and searchable online at Google books. If Sharpton had called for a black boycott of Houston's music it would have been chronicled in "Jet." It was not because it never happened. My memory is not so bad that I would have forgotten it.

[PeaceNHarmony]

Apparently there was a typo "Ralph Sharpton" instead of "Al Sharpton", but it's been corrected. He took out ads in publications to boycott "Whitey" Houston, claiming she's making music for non-blacks. So ridiculous! But people booed her after this at the Soul Train Music Awards and it shows the clip in the film. So I wonder what Al Sharpton thinks about Sarah Vaughn, Nat "King" Cole, Tina Turner, Charley Pride, Diana Ross, Dionne Warwick, Harry Belafonte and on and on....none of them made gospel or R&B records either. That was ridiculous and I wonder how I missed it back then. It was in the 90s.
Sharpton did a lot of way stoopid sh... stuff. Tawana Brawley, anyone? He's largely reinvented himself and he's done good things, too. But the Whitney boycott was absurd and shameful.

[soulster]

Thank you, Soulster.

Almost every issue of "Jet" magazine is available and searchable online at Google books. If Sharpton had called for a black boycott of Houston's music it would have been chronicled in "Jet." It was not because it never happened. My memory is not so bad that I would have forgotten it.

Same here! I used to read Jet religiously since the mid-70s, and I don't remember Al Sharpton doing any such thing. I do remember Jesse Jackson urging a boycott of Atlantic Records in 1978 over The Rolling Stones "Some Girls" song.

[soulster]

Thank you, Soulster.

Almost every issue of "Jet" magazine is available and searchable online at Google books. If Sharpton had called for a black boycott of Houston's music it would have been chronicled in "Jet." It was not because it never happened. My memory is not so bad that I would have forgotten it.

Same here! I used to read Jet religiously since the mid-70s, and I don't remember Al Sharpton doing any such thing. I do remember Jesse Jackson urging a boycott of Atlantic Records in 1978 over The Rolling Stones "Some Girls" song.

And, i'm still waiting for anyone to turn up some authentic solid proof Sharpton ever called for a boycott of Whitney Houston, or called her "Whitey" Houston.

[midnightman]

Hmm...

Now that I think about it, I don't remember reading anything on JET about it either. So yeah it's indeed completely made up. And I was only 5 when the booing incident happened so I wouldn't remember it anyway but it would've been easily documented if it was.

But why add that in a documentary that is supposed to be full of research???

Whitney actually did perform at the same ceremony where she was booed [[with BeBe & CeCe):


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-XTkHoUSroA

I wonder why they even booed her for Where Do Broken Hearts Go? That's one of the greatest pop/R&B ballads of all time. :/

[sansradio]

So I wonder what Al Sharpton thinks about[...]Tina Turner[...]Dionne Warwick....none of them made gospel or R&B records either.

I have to correct you here: Tina indeed did record a gospel album during the Ike years [[The Gospel According to Ike & Tina) as did Dionne [[two in her case, The Magic of Believing in the '60s and Why We Sing in the aughts).

I'm with the majority of posters here who, being a religious reader of Ebony, Jet and other Johnson Publications since childhood, have never heard Sharpton's name connected with the Whitney backlash. Indeed, he, much like President Obama, has been used as a lightning rod/whipping boy/scapegoat/boogieman for all the ills of the world by misguided people; I need proof.

[reese]

Hmm...

Now that I think about it, I don't remember reading anything on JET about it either. So yeah it's indeed completely made up. And I was only 5 when the booing incident happened so I wouldn't remember it anyway but it would've been easily documented if it was.

But why add that in a documentary that is supposed to be full of research???

Whitney actually did perform at the same ceremony where she was booed [[with BeBe & CeCe):


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-XTkHoUSroA

I wonder why they even booed her for Where Do Broken Hearts Go? That's one of the greatest pop/R&B ballads of all time. :/

This clip is labeled wrong. It is not from the Soul Train Awards, it is from the NAACP Image Awards.

[midnightman]

^ Ah OK, thanks for the correction. Like I said, I was only five so I can't recall if she performed that year or not. But I know she performed on the show at the 1993 awards with her then-husband.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CQW65qE7_d4

[marv2]

Hmm...

Now that I think about it, I don't remember reading anything on JET about it either. So yeah it's indeed completely made up. And I was only 5 when the booing incident happened so I wouldn't remember it anyway but it would've been easily documented if it was.

But why add that in a documentary that is supposed to be full of research???

Whitney actually did perform at the same ceremony where she was booed [[with BeBe & CeCe):


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-XTkHoUSroA

I wonder why they even booed her for Where Do Broken Hearts Go? That's one of the greatest pop/R&B ballads of all time. :/



Totally agree! That was one of the BEST molly fockin' songs period! She was just on overdrive during that time. People were waiting for her to cool off a bit and then she releases "Where Do Broken Hearts Go" a song I do not believe anyone could dislike.

[marv2]

This is how good she was y'all. From 2000 and Arista Records' 25th Anniversary:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UiLpxHO9aJ4

[midnightman]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZRfy9Ii3n2I

[midnightman]

Totally agree! That was one of the BEST molly fockin' songs period! She was just on overdrive during that time. People were waiting for her to cool off a bit and then she releases "Where Do Broken Hearts Go" a song I do not believe anyone could dislike.

I mean it was just strange. She was breaking down barriers for black artists, especially black female artists, during a racially tense time in the 1980s, and yet she gets booed? For what? Because she constantly dominated the charts? I don't know how some folks can be so fickle smh


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jrl86U__Im0

[marv2]

I mean it was just strange. She was breaking down barriers for black artists, especially black female artists, during a racially tense time in the 1980s, and yet she gets booed? For what? Because she constantly dominated the charts? I don't know how some folks can be so fickle smh


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jrl86U__Im0

I was in the demographic that the record companies were catering to in the 80s.
Young and with money. Yep, I was a yuppie and Whitney Houston was MADE for yuppies with the type of music she was producing. I don't recall the 80s really being a racially tense time in particular having grown up in the 60s. The 80s were all about excess, everything was BIG aka the Big 80s. Everyone wanted everything and they wanted it NOW!

By the time Whitney came around in the 80s any barriers I was aware of were already broken down years earlier. What she did was hit you with 100% pure voice, pure talent, packaged in a high fashion model package! Those that booed her were full of shit, fake ghetto thugs. Yeah I said it. They were the ones that promoted black women as video, hoochie whores, where as Whitney presented pure class. They were jealous and they were scared of what Whitney represented. She proved that she didn't have to bend over and shake her ass to sell millions of records. Those punks that booed her wanted to take black culture back as in backwards and we weren't going. It hurt Whitney's feelings [[but not her bank account) because she knew she was down, Hell she was from Newark, NJ!

[reese]

^ Ah OK, thanks for the correction. Like I said, I was only five so I can't recall if she performed that year or not. But I know she performed on the show at the 1993 awards with her then-husband.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CQW65qE7_d4

Yes, Whitney performed three times at the Soul Train Awards over the years.

She performed YOU GIVE GOOD LOVE at the first ceremony in 1987.

In 1994, she opened the show with QUEEN OF THE NIGHT / I'M EVERY WOMAN. Then she was honored with the Sammy Davis Entertainer of the Year Award and later, this performance with Bobby.

The last time she appeared was in 1999. She sang ITS NOT RIGHT BUT ITS OKAY and also sang SO AMAZING [[with El DeBarge, Johnny Gill, and Kenny Lattimore) for a Luther Vandross, who was receiving the Quincy Jones award.

[rrussi]

i have to correct you here: Tina indeed did record a gospel album during the ike years [[the gospel according to ike & tina) as did dionne [[two in her case, the magic of believing in the '60s and why we sing in the aughts).

I'm with the majority of posters here who, being a religious reader of ebony, jet and other johnson publications since childhood, have never heard sharpton's name connected with the whitney backlash. Indeed, he, much like president obama, has been used as a lightning rod/whipping boy/scapegoat/boogieman for all the ills of the world by misguided people; i need proof.
but neither tina turner or dionne warwick were known for the gospel recordings! Their big hits were all pop & rock! As I stated, I don't remember Sharpton's boycott either, but they did show a publication ad he supposedly took out boycotting her as well as the booing of her at the Soul Train Music Awards. I would think if it's made up he could sue over this being in the documentary. Either way, it's ridiculous!

[smallworld]

I know shoulder pads were trendy in the 1980s but why does BeBe Winans look like he's dressed for football practice under that blazer?

Joni Mitchell couldn't look less thrilled to be waving that light around onstage towards the end of the performance.

[rrussi]

I thought I had responded, but now don't see it. I know Tina as well as Dionne made those lps, but they weren't hits and that's not the music they are known for.

[midnightman]

but neither tina turner or dionne warwick were known for the gospel recordings! Their big hits were all pop & rock! As I stated, I don't remember Sharpton's boycott either, but they did show a publication ad he supposedly took out boycotting her as well as the booing of her at the Soul Train Music Awards. I would think if it's made up he could sue over this being in the documentary. Either way, it's ridiculous!

Hmm... I'm guessing that's how the docu got it?

[midnightman]

I was in the demographic that the record companies were catering to in the 80s.
Young and with money. Yep, I was a yuppie and Whitney Houston was MADE for yuppies with the type of music she was producing. I don't recall the 80s really being a racially tense time in particular having grown up in the 60s. The 80s were all about excess, everything was BIG aka the Big 80s. Everyone wanted everything and they wanted it NOW!

By the time Whitney came around in the 80s any barriers I was aware of were already broken down years earlier. What she did was hit you with 100% pure voice, pure talent, packaged in a high fashion model package! Those that booed her were full of shit, fake ghetto thugs. Yeah I said it. They were the ones that promoted black women as video, hoochie whores, where as Whitney presented pure class. They were jealous and they were scared of what Whitney represented. She proved that she didn't have to bend over and shake her ass to sell millions of records. Those punks that booed her wanted to take black culture back as in backwards and we weren't going. It hurt Whitney's feelings [[but not her bank account) because she knew she was down, Hell she was from Newark, NJ!

Well it WAS 1989, the year hip-hop and new jack swing had become more prevalent in R&B music. So yeah, Whitney's brand of ballads and dance pop were not gonna be favored by that audience, which is still strange. This WAS the year of Bobby Brown after all.

By the early '90s, all that concern about Whitney being "too white" was over and black folks went back to fully embracing her again. 1989 was just a weird year.

[marv2]

Well it WAS 1989, the year hip-hop and new jack swing had become more prevalent in R&B music. So yeah, Whitney's brand of ballads and dance pop were not gonna be favored by that audience, which is still strange. This WAS the year of Bobby Brown after all.

By the early '90s, all that concern about Whitney being "too white" was over and black folks went back to fully embracing her again. 1989 was just a weird year.


I had never stop liking Whitney Houston and her music. She outlasted all of those artists that booed her. Maybe not in life,but her music will live on for years after all of them have been long forgotten!

[soulster]

Well it WAS 1989, the year hip-hop and new jack swing had become more prevalent in R&B music. So yeah, Whitney's brand of ballads and dance pop were not gonna be favored by that audience, which is still strange. This WAS the year of Bobby Brown after all.

By the early '90s, all that concern about Whitney being "too white" was over and black folks went back to fully embracing her again. 1989 was just a weird year.

I was in my mid-20s in the late 80s/early 90s. I would indeed remember any real backlash against Houston. I remember a bit of rumbling that she was groomed for White people, but didn't Motown do the same thing in the 60s?

There was racial tension during the 80s, but it usually came in the form of opposition to Jesse Jackson running for president under the Rainbow Coalition. He had the right idea, but not only was the time too soon, but he only targeted Black people, very different from what Barrack Obama did over 30 years later.

The other bit of racial turbulence in the 80s came in the form of the gang culture, and White America's spotlighting of the "urban" problem, namely drugs, unwed pregnancies, and the gang culture that rap music helped bring into the 90s.

Where music is concerned, there were racial problems when MTV refused to play music videos by Black artists. Among other problems, Blacks accused the record industry, and many Black artists, of "whitewashing" the music to make it palatable to White audiences. A degree of this was indeed true, and an issue that helped the rise of hip-hop. Even Dick Griffey, owner of one of the Black music record labels, commissioned his staff writers to come up with a pop hit for Shalamar in 1983. That song was "Dead Giveaway". There are many examples of this in the 80s, but it is interesting to note that at least one label did not resort to this, and that was Clarence Avant's Tabu Records, home of The SOS Band, Alexander O'Neal, and Cherrelle. Rick James said he wrote "Super Freak" "so White people would have something to dance to.". And, he was one of the main Black artists complaining that MTV wouldn't play his video for the song. It would take Walter Yetnikoff, head of CBS, to coerce the music video channel to play Michael Jackson, or he would take off of the label's videos off the channel. That would have hurt MTV bigtime, as CBS had the lion's share of videos at the time. No Journey, now Men At Work, no Slade, no Adam Ant, no Judas Priest, no Bonnie Tyler, no Ozzy Osbourne, no Cyndi Lauper, no Billy Joel, no Teena Marie [[well, they wouldn't have played her anyway)...yup, they would have hurt! But, I digress...

Here comes squeaky-clean Whitney, fresh out of the Clive Davis factory. Build the Black audience with the first album produced by the likes of Jermaine Jackson and Kashif, then hit 'em hard with a Narada Michael Walden-produced blockbuster album. BTW, NMW was doing fairly good as a jazz/R&B artist on Atlantic Records during the 70s and early 80s. He started out as a jazz/fusion drummer. I'm sure that at some point, the good corporate executives convinced him to make some hit records, and that he did. In 1980, he had a hit single "I Should've Loved Ya", a song molded by the still-hot band Chic. After the disappointing sales of the second Chic-produced album "Love Somebody Today", Sister Sledge was given, or chose to work with Narada Michael Walden for their "All American Girls" album from 1981. The album was pure pop heaven, expertly produced and calculated to warm the hearts of pop fans the world over, and to restore them to the "We Are Family" glory days of just two years ago. But, the album flopped, probably because he pushed Black people doing pop music on a public that wasn't quite ready for it yet. Black women can be included in the American dream in Ronald Reagan's America? Message right, time wrong. [[And, yes, i'm getting back to the duo-topic.) Black people doing pop music in the 80s sometimes word, but it was largely a vain effort. The message eventually got through that if you just make the music from your heart, they will come. Don't worry about targeting an audience, just make the music the best you can. And, that's what I think they did with Whitney. It's just that her image wasn't working for the increasingly angry Black populous who felt that Black concerns and Black culture were being ignored and gradually stripped away. Let's not forget the heat Bo Derek took for sporting dreadlocks in the movie "10". Cultural appropriation, anyone? How about "reverse" cultural appropriation?

Yup, Jody Watley, Karyn White, Neneh Cherry, even Janet Jackson, were seen as more "Black". They had the image and the music. Well, Karyn White had the music, anyway. And, there were more than a few people who thought Paula Abdul was Black. Poor Whitney, she starred with Kevin Costner and blew out our eardrums shrieking an old Dolly Parton song.

Now, anyone wanna talk about Mariah Carey? :) Interestingly, she didn't suffer the Black" thang.

[Guy]

Joni Mitchell couldn't look less thrilled to be waving that light around onstage towards the end of the performance.

LOL. Joni did look underwhelmed. But she's always prided herself on having cross-cultural appeal [[and she does) so I am not surprised to see her there.

[Guy]

I think the Whitney backlash was due to the the fact that she was so conspicuously marketed for crossover success. Her song selection was very "pop" with all of the rough edges polished away. Clive Davis notoriously sent her back to the studio to re-record vocal takes he deemed "too black." There was an awareness in the industry and among her black fanbase that her music and image was meticulously groomed to be less black so as to be more palatable to pop radio and white record buyers.

Also, she was successful at a time when Anita Baker and Janet Jackson were also enjoying success with music that was more rooted in soul/jazz/funk music styles. So the decision to maximize her crossover appeal at the expense of her Gospel/R&B roots was personally offensive to some black fans.

As noted by other posters, she was just the latest in a line of hugely successful black performers who blacks resented because of their assimilationist aspirations -- Sammy Davis Jr., Eartha Kitt, Nat King Cole, Johnny Mathis, Diana Ross, etc.

[sansradio]

I thought I had responded, but now don't see it. I know Tina as well as Dionne made those lps, but they weren't hits and that's not the music they are known for.

That I will not dispute, but you initially said they never did. Cheers.

[soulster]

I think the Whitney backlash was due to the the fact that she was so conspicuously marketed for crossover success. Her song selection was very "pop" with all of the rough edges polished away. Clive Davis notoriously sent her back to the studio to re-record vocal takes he deemed "too black." There was an awareness in the industry and among her black fanbase that her music and image was meticulously groomed to be less black so as to be more palatable to pop radio and white record buyers.

Clive Davis isn't known for his expertise in R&B music. He was usually pretty wise to back off the R&B signees to his labels. But, in the case of Whitney Houston, I think he had intentions of marketing her as a pop artist all along.


As noted by other posters, she was just the latest in a line of hugely successful black performers who blacks resented because of their assimilationist aspirations -- Sammy Davis Jr., Eartha Kitt, Nat King Cole, Johnny Mathis, Diana Ross, etc.

Sammy Davis Jr.? he was part of the rat pack. he didn't have an R&B bone in his body. He didn't have to assimilate, but Frank, Dean, and Peter had to do was force White 'Merica to accept him as an equal or they didn't get any of them.

[Guy]

Sammy Davis Jr.? he was part of the rat pack. he didn't have an R&B bone in his body. He didn't have to assimilate, but Frank, Dean, and Peter had to do was force White 'Merica to accept him as an equal or they didn't get any of them.

Nothing to do with R&B. Sammy Davis Jr. was a black superstar who was very successful and acclaimed by the majority culture. He started as part of an act with his father and uncle on the "chitlin' circuit" -- playing to black audiences -- but later enjoyed huge mainstream celebrity. When his success with the majority culture was at its peak he was plagued by criticism from black media and black audiences that he was a sell-out -- a.k.a. "too white". Like the other artists I cited.

Whitney was not the first, just one in a line of black performers who suffered that criticism.

[soulster]

Nothing to do with R&B. Sammy Davis Jr. was a black superstar who was very successful and acclaimed by the majority culture. He started as part of an act with his father and uncle on the "chitlin' circuit" -- playing to black audiences -- but later enjoyed huge mainstream celebrity. When his success with the majority culture was at its peak he was plagued by criticism from black media and black audiences that he was a sell-out -- a.k.a. "too white". Like the other artists I cited.



I'm talking about when he was coming up in the 50s. His friends had to force Whites to accept him.

[midnightman]

Soulster is right about Clive wanting to make Whitney a pop star. Clive caught Whitney at the right time [[she was 19 when Arista signed her; enough time to mold her into the crossover legend she became).

The other black female divas he signed like Phyllis Hyman and Angela Bofill got with Arista when both had established R&B audiences and were also much older when they got with Clive so they were too earthy to be molded into pop stars. Dionne and Aretha were already legends with established careers [[Dionne had a bit of that pop sheen but not enough to return her to her '60s megastardom during the Bacharach/David years).

Whitney at 19, 20 years old was perfect for Clive to mold her before she got established so she was a pop artist from day one in a sense.

[soulster]

The other black female divas he signed like Phyllis Hyman and Angela Bofill got with Arista when both had established R&B audiences and were also much older when they got with Clive so they were too earthy to be molded into pop stars.


Angela Bofill was originally on the GRP label [[Grusin/Rosen Productions) along with Tom Browne. The GRP label was distributed by Arista. In 1983, GRP was sold to Arista, and Clive Davis took on Browne and Bofill. Tom Browne's music didn't change much, but Clive paired Bofill with that up and coming pop diva svengali Narada Michael Walden! The result was "Too Tough" in 1983. I guess Sister Sledge's "All American Girls" made an impression on Davis.

Funny, after the letdown of Sister Sledge's "All American Girls", despite it being a blockbuster album with something for everyone, the sisters went on to produce themselves for their 1982 "The Sisters" album, then turned to George Duke for the "Betcha Say That To All The Girls" album in '83. George Duke had a hit with Stanley Clarke called "Sweet Baby" that crossed over. That same year, he also did an album with Denise Williams, who had always been a pop artist, but was pushed by the label to go strictly R&B, and wound up with several producers on top of that. She was finally able to attain her pop status just once with the next year's "Let's Hear It For The Boy", but lightning didn't strike twice.

Anyway, Clive Davis understands pop music. That, he is good at. R&B? Not so much. Thankfully, we was wise enough to know that you have to at least let Black artists build up a Black base first, then take them pop, which is what he did with Ray Parker Jr. and Whitney Houston. As mentioned before, Dionne Warwick was always a pop singer, so he wisely paired her with Barry Manilow for her 1979 comeback on Arista. It helped that the second single from that S/T "Dionne" album had a substantial R&B hit single "Deja Vu".

Phyllis Hyman was absorbed from the Arista purchase of Buddah Records. She had a fantastic hit single "You Know How To Love Me" in 1980, a duet with Michael Henderson in 1981, all in the midst of having become a drug addict after her divorce, and problems with Arista. She committed suicide after a spotty career during the remainder of the 80s, and the 90s. She was found in a hotel room before a concert in 1995, and left a suicide note.

I'm almost certain Clive Davis helped Aretha Franklin get her shit together when she signed to Arista in 1980, and her career was resurrected almost immediately, after having been lost at Atlantic for years during the disco era. All of the people who were with her at Atlantic during her heyday had moved on. Arif Mardin had worked his magic with Average White Band, Bee Gees, and was with Chaka Khan in 1980. Jerry Wexler had semi-retired from the business, but Produced Bob Dylan in 1979.

[rrussi]

I remember Jerry Wexler came out of retirement at some point to work with Etta James.
Clive Davis is interviewed in the Whitney documentary.
I think the disco era really hurt a lot of artists that didn't make music anything like disco music.

[jobeterob]

In one of the early clips, I didn't even hear any booing.

In the Director's interview, I'm sure he talks about the abuse of Gary as being by Dee Dee Warwick as well.

[pghmusiclover]

Clive did no favors to either Angela Bofill or Phyllis Hyman — I’ve heard Phyllis had no love for Clive. Thankfully she returned to making soulful albums for Philadelphia International after leaving Arista, though sadly she could not overcome whatever personal demons haunted her.

[soulster]

Clive did no favors to either Angela Bofill or Phyllis Hyman — I’ve heard Phyllis had no love for Clive. Thankfully she returned to making soulful albums for Philadelphia International after leaving Arista, though sadly she could not overcome whatever personal demons haunted her.

The other problem is that by 1980, the PIR label was nothing but a shell with the same name of the label it used to be in the 70s. It may as well have not existed at that point.

[midnightman]

Clive DID revive Aretha's fortunes after she signed with Arista. Who's Zoomin' Who and the Aretha '86 album were actually my introductions to her. As for Phyllis, I recalled the Living All Alone and Prime of My Life albums being the most successful albums of her career that for a time revived the fortunes in PIR, which had seen better days from its 70s heyday, it couldn't help Patti LaBelle despite having the hit "If Only You Knew" on PIR and she had to go to MCA to finally get the crossover pop success she had always longed for since starting her career with the Bluebelles.

I do believe Phyllis' drug habits definitely hurt her chances to have a better career at Arista though. Also the demons that she had going on with her definitely made her difficult to work with so I'm surprised Gamble & Huff managed to successfully produce her before she died!

Angela was the complete opposite of Phyllis in terms of drug use [[she never tried drugs) and, like Phyllis, was an underrated vocalist with a strong R&B/jazz fan base. Clive tried hard to make her a dance pop diva [[Too Tough aside, I don't think her voice was made for dance music though Too Tough was a huge dance hit for her when it came out; she preferred ballads). Also, Angela was not a fan of touring so that didn't help her career either.

Once Whitney came in, Phyllis was gone [[she was dumped from the label after Goddess of Love flopped; GOL came out the same year Whitney signed with Arista) and Angela soon left as well.

[soulster]

Clive DID revive Aretha's fortunes after she signed with Arista. Who's Zoomin' Who and the Aretha '86 album were actually my introductions to her.


Wow! Really? You must be young, dude!

[marv2]

Wow! Really? You must be young, dude!

I do find that amazing! LOL!!!!!

[midnightman]

Wow! Really? You must be young, dude!

Hahaha yeah you hit the nail on the donkey there. ;)