Who are the Marvelettes on the cover of IN FULL BLOOM - Tamla 288

[woodward]

Does anyone know specifically the name of the 3 Marvelettes on the cover
of IN FULL BLOOM, Tamla 288?

Thanks.

[lakeside]

Ann Bogan, Wanda Rogers, Katherine Anderson [[L to R).
http://www.recordsbymail.com/uploads/9-2-14-1/392379.jpg

[lakeside]

In Full Bloom
http://stonewallrebellion.org/images/songs_8/h_marvelettes.jpg

[Pandakins]

I bought that album on ebay a few months ago and really loved it. I followed up by buying 'Pink', 'Return' and 'Sophisticated'. I think 'Bloom' is my second favourite after 'Pink'. Most recently I've bought the book that was issued in 2004. I love the 2 tracks that Ann did. I've been into Motown for years but didn't know much about Marvelettes

[luke]

Katherine does look a little like Gladys in the top pic...from that right angle

[arr&bee]

I love that cover photo,and i love the marvelettes too.

[franjoy56]

Last night katherine schaffner was on stage eith a new trio of marvelettes @t the beacon and she sang lead on pls mr postman.

[marv2]

Last night katherine schaffner was on stage eith a new trio of marvelettes @t the beacon and she sang lead on pls mr postman.

Oh that must have been great! I didn't know they were coming to NYC.

[Fullfillingnessfirstfinale]

Does anyone know specifically the name of the 3 Marvelettes on the cover
of IN FULL BLOOM, Tamla 288?

Thanks.

I think Ann Bogan is in the middle because she forgot her wig during the photo session, so you have Wanda, Ann and Kat

[mysterysinger]

I think Ann Bogan is in the middle because she forgot her wig during the photo session, so you have Wanda, Ann and Kat

No that's wrong, Wanda is in the middle on the front cover of "In Full Bloom".

Here is Wanda.

14368

[lakeside]

No that's wrong, Wanda is in the middle on the front cover of "In Full Bloom".



14368
Here is Wanda.

Yes, that's correct. But, in the second pic, Ann is in the middle, if that's the pic
that fulfilling was referring to.

[kenneth]

I always thought what was interesting about this cover is that the Marvelettes were dressed in contemporary casual outfits instead of gowns such as on their previously released album "Sophisticated Soul" and many other of the girl group albums from the period. I also think Ann, with her natural, lent a more up to date look to the group instead of the usual wigs such as worn by Wanda and Katherine.

If you compare this to the other girl groups at Motown around the same time [[1969-70), the Supremes [[except for the "Love Child" cover) were still begowned as usual, as were the Vandellas on their recent "Sugar and Spice" album, though the Vandellas too donned contemporary outfits for "Natural Resources." This seemed a way to try and make the girl groups more modern in a sense though interestingly enough it seems the Supremes were kind of the last ones to get on board.

But "Full Bloom" really is a great cover and really shows on the album how the Marvelettes had evolved over the years. To me, the album's mood doesn't vary enough from song to song, but the songs are well done and the arrangements are flawless.

[mysterysinger]

Here is Wanda.

Yes, that's correct. But, in the second pic, Ann is in the middle, if that's the pic
that fulfilling was referring to.

Woodward asked for "the name of the 3 Marvelettes on the cover of IN FULL BLOOM, Tamla 288" as you quoted. The second photo is a red herring as it doesn't appear on the cover of IFB - neither front nor back - beautiful though it is. Those were the days.

[kenneth]

I bought that album on ebay a few months ago and really loved it. I followed up by buying 'Pink', 'Return' and 'Sophisticated'. I think 'Bloom' is my second favourite after 'Pink'. Most recently I've bought the book that was issued in 2004. I love the 2 tracks that Ann did. I've been into Motown for years but didn't know much about Marvelettes

It's so fun to see new listeners comment on the Marvelettes and other groups that we love on the forum. It's interesting hearing the perspective from new listeners.

If the Pink album is your favorite and "Full Bloom" your second favorite, then you should definitely invest in both of the "Forever" box sets. Although the Pink album really ushered in the second phase of the Marvelettes' career, with Wanda singing lead instead of Gladys, I think the song selection on this one [[and even on "Sophisticated Soul") really represent earlier Motown, while "Full Bloom" and "Return" more reflect the direction the company was going in with its girl groups. To me, the Marvelettes went from a pretty traditional girl group sound [[maybe the most traditional of all the Motown girls) to a very sophisticated and more integrated sound, still soulful but smoother and with more emphasis on orchestral type arrangements rather than aggressive vocals.

As an example, 2 of their last few singles, "That's How Heartaches are Made" and "Marionette" have almost a cinematic quality to the arrangements. "Heartaches" has a beautiful reading by Wanda, and she truly sounds heartbroken. "Marionette" has that wonderful instrumentation such as that "ticky tacky" percussion during the chorus which so sounds like a puppet dancing. Just brilliant and beautiful use of the Detroit Symphony strings on these numbers.

Please keep listening and tell us what other discoveries you find amongst these gems!

[lakeside]

The Pink Album is probably my favorite Marvelettes album. I 'sort of' like the final LP...
The Return of The Marvelettes...or more accurately, The Return of Wanda Rogers. In Full Bloom and Sophisticated Soul were up there, too. I was sad to see The Marvelettes end...but, at least we have some great music left 'Forever'.

[daviddesper]

In Full Bloom is probably my favorite Motown album cover of all time. But I guess none of us knew, or at least I didn't, that they were on their way out at the time and that there would be no more hits. As for Pink and SS, I considered the music quality of those two to be pretty much even steven.

One thing I will give Motown credit for.....in its heyday, they put out music as fast as they could possibly swing it, whereas today, you can be a top-selling artist, yet your fans are lucky to get an album every five years.

[sup_fan]

the Pink album is a stellar set. great cover, perfect lineup of songs. and there are some with the actual Marvelettes doing the singing!

i too like SS. another great set.

Full Bloom is a bit less perfect IMO. it is quite good but i agree with an earlier comment that they might have adjusted the song list a bit. I love Ann's track but it's a bit out of place. sort of random. perhaps if she shared lead on another track or two and had another song like this it might have flowed a bit better

isn't the back cover art simply a black and white printing of the front color pic? that's not usually a good sign. going for the cheap with an album graphic doesn't bode well for it's promotional budget.

[WaitingWatchingLookingForAChance]

isn't the back cover art simply a black and white printing of the front color pic? that's not usually a good sign. going for the cheap with an album graphic doesn't bode well for it's promotional budget.

That was more or less common practice at Motown and other record companies for quite a few years. A black and white graphic on the rear cover. So I don't think it had to do with trying to be cheap with that album. If anything, that was one of Motown's most striking album covers I've ever seen. I actually like that black and white monochrome effect with that photo. It's somewhat striking and dramatic IMHO.

[WaitingWatchingLookingForAChance]

One thing I will give Motown credit for.....in its heyday, they put out music as fast as they could possibly swing it, whereas today, you can be a top-selling artist, yet your fans are lucky to get an album every five years.

And what's more, even when Motown was putting out albums as fast as they could, for the most part, they were of high caliber material. This "Full Bloom" album was a major surprise to me when I got it because all I had been reading for years was how Motown stashed the group on the back burner. First, seeing the cover, I thought it was astonishingly beautiful and then, listening to the music, I thought in no way did it sound like "factory-seconds". Motown may not have been pushing the group to the fullest, but they certainly were good at giving them quality material and releases.

[Philles/Motown Gary]

And what's more, even when Motown was putting out albums as fast as they could, for the most part, they were of high caliber material. This "Full Bloom" album was a major surprise to me when I got it because all I had been reading for years was how Motown stashed the group on the back burner. First, seeing the cover, I thought it was astonishingly beautiful and then, listening to the music, I thought in no way did it sound like "factory-seconds". Motown may not have been pushing the group to the fullest, but they certainly were good at giving them quality material and releases.
I couldn't agree more, WaitingWatching. The Marvelettes last five albums [["Greatest Hits," "The Pink Album", "Sophisticated Soul", "In Full Boom", and "Return of") are not only my favorite Marvelettes albums, they're among my all-time favorite Motown albums in general. Motown provided the ladies with top-notch material as well as top-notch production. Getting each of their new albums as they were released was a real thrill for me. Musically speaking, Motown did right by The Marvelettes all the way.

[westgrandboulevard]

The 'In Full Bloom' album was released in September 1969.


Just as an overview - and with thanks to DFTMC - the completion date for each track is:


Seeing Is Believing - March 7 1969
Sunshine Days - March 12 1969
That's How Heartaches Are Made - May 3 1969
The Truth's Outside My Door - April 23 1969
I Have Someone [[Who Loves Me Too) - April 24 1968
Uptown - November 22 1968


At Last I See Love As It Really Is - June 28 1967
Now Is The Time For Love - August 22 1967
Too Many Tears, Too Many Times - September 29 1965
Rainy Mourning - November 4 1966
Everybody Knows [[But You) - January 11 1969
Love Silent, Love Deep - August 22 1967

[CoolKatz]

In Full Bloom is a great late 60's Album. It really shows haw the group blossomed into full grown women.

[Fullfillingnessfirstfinale]

In Full Bloom is a great late 60's Album. It really shows haw the group blossomed into full grown women.

I think so too, it´s a Motown masterpiece. I think we can see the development from the Pink album, Sophisticated Soul and finally In Full Bloom.

I say it again and again and it´s sad too, but I think if Ann Bogan would become the new lead singer of the group, maybe there was an realistic way into the 70´s

[gordy_hunk]

Many thanks to Lakeside for identifying the three of the Marvelettes on the front cover. It is strange, but I've never managed to learn who was a member of the Marvelettes, when, and who sang lead on any of their records [[singles or LP).

I've always thought that they were such a massively underrated group, and I remember having bought this LP [[long, long after it had been issued), I was taken with some of the tracks [[in particular "seeing is believing", the incredible "that's how heartaches are made"). Of course I didn't realise at the time, that in the UK, we'd never have another 'new' Marvelettes LP issued [["The Return Of The Marvelettes" was never issued here).

As Lakeside [[and others) are knowledgeable about the group, are you able to indicate who sang lead on which track?

[CoolKatz]

Many thanks to Lakeside for identifying the three of the Marvelettes on the front cover. It is strange, but I've never managed to learn who was a member of the Marvelettes, when, and who sang lead on any of their records [[singles or LP).



I've always thought that they were such a massively underrated group, and I remember having bought this LP [[long, long after it had been issued), I was taken with some of the tracks [[in particular "seeing is believing", the incredible "that's how heartaches are made"). Of course I didn't realise at the time, that in the UK, we'd never have another 'new' Marvelettes LP issued [["The Return Of The Marvelettes" was never issued here).

As Lakeside [[and others) are knowledgeable about the group, are you able to indicate who sang lead on which track?

On the In Full Bloom album, Wanda sang lead on all except "Everybody Knows But You"which was lead by Ann

[westgrandboulevard]

Yes, Wanda is leading, and with The Andantes on most tracks, with Ann and The Andantes on 'Everybody Knows [[But You)'.

Difficult to be absolutely sure on all details, and others may have differing views, but the exceptions with the background voices would seem to be on the following tracks:

'Uptown' - The Andantes take the high background harmonies. The lower notes, sung in unison, would usually have been all The Marvelettes. While it does sound like Wanda, Gladys and Katherine here, Gladys reportedly left the group approximately a year before 'Uptown' was completed. It could be Wanda and Katherine, maybe with an additional singer - or maybe other session singers altogether.

'At Last I See Love As It Really Is' - The Andantes are the high harmony voices, and The Marvelettes are singing in unison on the chorus, mixed low under The Andantes' voices.

'Now Is The Time For Love' - same as the above track, with Marvelettes and Andantes voices blended.

'Rainy Mourning' - Wanda on lead, and also on background vocals, with Gladys and Katherine. No Andantes on this track.

'Love Silent, Love Deep' - The Marvelettes background vocals are again mixed down under The Andantes, although far more prominent on

"....he loves me silent
he loves me deep
he makes me strong
yeah, he makes me sweet
we walk together, hand in hand..."
[[then The Andantes, only : 'though we don't speak, we understand')

[jsmith]

The Marvelettes in Hull...
14390

[marv2]

What a great picture! Thanks JSmith

[Fullfillingnessfirstfinale]

What a great picture! Thanks JSmith

Yes that´s true, fantastic picture of the group.

Maybe someone knows who sang on all Ann Bogan tracks:

Everybody knows - Ann Bogan and The Andantes
I´m gonna hold on long as I can - here it could be Ann Bogan with The Marvelettes and The Andantes, could it be right ?
Breakin´ through - Ann Bogan with.....
Why don´t you do it - Ann Bogan with...

It would be great can somebody comploeted !

Thanks a lot

[westgrandboulevard]

Hi Fullfillingnessfirstfinale [[your member name's even longer than mine lol)


After Gladys Horton left The Marvelettes, it seems session singers were then always used for background work, instead of any Marvelettes.

'I'm Gonna Hold Long As I Can' [[originally assigned to Brenda Holloway) was recorded after Gladys had left, so would be Ann and session singers, and who certainly sound like The Andantes.

Same with 'Breakthru [[I've Got My Freedom)', which was originally assigned to Gladys Knight & The Pips. Session singers sound like The Andantes, but could possibly include Ann herself?

'Why'd You Do It' [[also first assigned to GK&P) : session singers don't sound like The Andantes at all, but could still include Ann?

[Fullfillingnessfirstfinale]

Thank you very much Westgrandboulevard for that information. It seems to me that Ann sings only with the Marvelettes together as a backround singer. Maybe the group members weren´t not agreed that Ann took over lead vocals or was it a coincidence ?

[westgrandboulevard]

FFF....It could well be that Wanda, and especially Katherine, were actually in agreement for Ann to sing some lead vocals?

Wanda had shared leads with Gladys before, and Katherine had never sung leads. It would have been to their benefit, if they were still interested in keeping the group going?

I'm only just guessing Ann did some background work. Far more likely her voice was simply dubbed onto a band track as a lead, followed by extra instrumentation and then the background voices, using other session singers [[like The Andantes), were added later.

By the time Ann was being featured as a Marvelette, it seems the group was being promoted more in recordings than in live appearances. Many of the tracks being released had been recorded quite some time earlier, and not all of them featured any Marvelettes as background voices.

I don't think there were many bookings at that time, and Ann's talents were used just for recording some leads, and for promotional pics, in an attempt to revitalise the group?

And was Ann ever asked to participate on the tracks used for the 'Return of The Marvelettes' album, I wonder? Probably not, and neither, I think, was Katherine..as she did not want to be featured on the cover....

[motony]

No, Wanda, Kat & Ann did LIVE shows. Ann did lead on the prior Gladys leads. They also did some LIVE shows in Germany at US bases. Harvey Fuqua is who brought Ann to Kat & Wandas' attention to replace Gladys.

[snakepit]

The Marvelettes in Hull...
14390

In Hull? With that sunshine and blue sky? ��

[kenneth]

And was Ann ever asked to participate on the tracks used for the 'Return of The Marvelettes' album, I wonder? Probably not, and neither, I think, was Katherine..as she did not want to be featured on the cover....

According to Katherine [[I believe in an interview for Marc Taylor's book), it was actually the reverse. She refused to do the cover because she'd had nothing to do with the music on the album. This would also make more sense, especially if you consider that it started out as a Wanda Rogers solo project and then morphed into a Marvelettes album at the 11th hour. Thinking that way, they likely wouldn't have anticipated needing Katherine's [[or Ann's) involvement until it was decided it should be marketed as a Marvelettes record which was likely late in the process.

[Philles/Motown Gary]

According to Katherine [[I believe in an interview for Marc Taylor's book), it was actually the reverse. She refused to do the cover because she'd had nothing to do with the music on the album. This would also make more sense, especially if you consider that it started out as a Wanda Rogers solo project and then morphed into a Marvelettes album at the 11th hour. Thinking that way, they likely wouldn't have anticipated needing Katherine's [[or Ann's) involvement until it was decided it should be marketed as a Marvelettes record which was likely late in the process.

That's true, Kenny. Katherine considered it a slap in the face that Motown couldn't be bothered with her vocally for the recording of the album, yet had the nerve to request her for a photo session after the fact when they were suddenly in a bind. Can't say I blame her, although, musically speaking, I'm glad they utilized The Andantes for backing vocals.

[motony]

although they used "Uptown" on the "Return..."LP that had been on In Full Bloom which was the Marvelettes on the recording. When I saw Wanda, Gladys & Kat LIVE in 1966, they were GREAT and there were no Andantes "in the wings" so to speak. They had full command of the stage both vocally & physically.

[kenneth]

although they used "Uptown" on the "Return..."LP that had been on In Full Bloom which was the Marvelettes on the recording. When I saw Wanda, Gladys & Kat LIVE in 1966, they were GREAT and there were no Andantes "in the wings" so to speak. They had full command of the stage both vocally & physically.

I really love the backing vocals of the Marvelettes over the Andantes who to me were just too good and too smooth for my liking [[sometimes a bit "syrupy" sounding IMHO). On "Uptown," for example, the backing vocals are less polished sounding but they have a sense of urgency, especially in the chorus "call and response" section, which to me is usually lacking in the Andantes' background.

But I know the Andantes have their fans such as my buddy Gary a few comments up. Obviously, vocally they were flawless. I just think they lacked "identity," which I guess was the point after all.

How I wish, wish, wish we had a live recording of the latter day Marvelettes. I was so disappointed when Keith Hughes said there was nothing in the vault representing any live Marvelettes. It seems incredible that all those years they were touring, that no one ever thought there'd be any value in preserving a few of those performances.

[westgrandboulevard]

Kenneth, I think you misinterpreted what I said but, yes, it is certainly true that Katherine's decision not to be involved in the photo shoot for the cover was a direct consequence of her non-involvement with the 'Return' album.

"..if I wasn't good enough to sing background on some of the songs, then I'm not good enough to do a photo shoot".

That, and other comments in Marc Taylor's book presents a rather bleak account of the latter stages in the career of The Marvelettes.

Unless there were some contractual obligations to be fulfilled, it seems odd that Motown would release an album titled 'The Return Of The Marvelettes', with Wanda as the sole lead voice, considering she was reported to have become unreliable for stage performances and so, presumably, would be unlikely to promote it.

And yes again....it is a great shame there are not more of their live or TV performances available....:[[

[kenneth]

@westgrandbolevard, sorry if I read your post wrong my friend.

[westgrandboulevard]

No problem Kenneth, we're in agreement....

btw...can anyone pinpoint the differences between the alternate mixes on 'Return' of 'That's How Heartaches Are Made', and 'Uptown', and those originally released on the 'In Full Bloom' album- ?

I can usually immediately hear the difference in an 'alternate version'...but not those two.....

[motony]

yes, Kat had alluded to the fact that they[[Motown) had been sued due to bookings that could not go through because of Wandas' problems.I know they had a lot of bookings at colleges & military bases in '67 & '68.

[kenneth]

No problem Kenneth, we're in agreement....

btw...can anyone pinpoint the differences between the alternate mixes on 'Return' of 'That's How Heartaches Are Made', and 'Uptown', and those originally released on the 'In Full Bloom' album- ?

I can usually immediately hear the difference in an 'alternate version'...but not those two.....

I don't hear much difference in "Uptown," but on "Heartaches" the instrumental break using the synthesizer or whatever instrument it is is much more prominent in the mix on the "Return" version, I believe. When the 2nd box set was launched, I had assumed that those two tracks wouldn't be repeated on the set but Keith Hughes or someone else with Hip-O at the time said they felt the different mixes should both be included.

[Philles/Motown Gary]

But I know the Andantes have their fans such as my buddy Gary a few comments up. Obviously, vocally they were flawless. I just think they lacked "identity," which I guess was the point after all.

How I wish, wish, wish we had a live recording of the latter day Marvelettes. I was so disappointed when Keith Hughes said there was nothing in the vault representing any live Marvelettes. It seems incredible that all those years they were touring, that no one ever thought there'd be any value in preserving a few of those performances.

The Andantes' harmonies "lacked identity", you say? Heck, Kenny, I can identify the unique and heavenly blend of Louvain, Jackie, and Marlene within a few glorious notes! They were an integral ingredient of "The Motown Sound".

[westgrandboulevard]

OK Kenneth, will locate the box set and listen.

I remember asking on here some years ago what is being used on 'Heartaches' instrumental break, and I think it was decided that it is an electric guitar, with a wah-wah pedal.

Philles/Motown Gary.....yes, The Andantes had a heavenly sound, and were essential Motown...but the vocal tones of those Marvelettes were just plain, flat out lusty.....I love both groups of ladies...

[kenneth]

OK Kenneth, will locate the box set and listen.

I remember asking on here some years ago what is being used on 'Heartaches' instrumental break, and I think it was decided that it is an electric guitar, with a wah-wah pedal.

Philles/Motown Gary.....yes, The Andantes had a heavenly sound, and were essential Motown...but the vocal tones of those Marvelettes were just plain, flat out lusty.....I love both groups of ladies...

It certainly could be a guitar. I asked Dennis Coffey once on this forum if he played on the "Return" album because I thought some of the guitar licks bore his signature, but he couldn't remember. He was probably so busy back then. I imagine many times they played on songs and had no idea who'd ultimately be laying down the vocals for the tracks.

[WaitingWatchingLookingForAChance]

The Andantes' harmonies "lacked identity", you say? Heck, Kenny, I can identify the unique and heavenly blend of Louvain, Jackie, and Marlene within a few glorious notes! They were an integral ingredient of "The Motown Sound".

I love the Andantes too, but it does get to be very disappointing to not hear the identity of the actual groups on their own records. Yes, they have a Heavenly sound, but when it gets to the point that every group at Motown had the exact same sound going on...

Maybe there are two types of fans- [[A) ones who like and enjoy an authentic group performance, the kind the gives the group a defining identity; and [[B) those who don't worry about who is doing the background, but just enjoy a song as long as everything melds together flawlessly.

I think record companies in general got used to going for the overall sound, feeling the general public didn't care one way or the other who was actually on a record. Phil Spector certainly didn't care if the other Ronettes or Crystals were on a record or not. In fact, he regularly used a battalion of other voices on his records. Only the lead singer mattered.

If anything, I like the recordings that, if they used the Andantes, it was in addition to the Marvelettes' voices. I think Dean and Weatherspoon were good in that regard for the most part. "Young And In Love" is the best example of that approach.

[Philles/Motown Gary]

I love the Andantes too, but it does get to be very disappointing to not hear the identity of the actual groups on their own records. Yes, they have a Heavenly sound, but when it gets to the point that every group at Motown had the exact same sound going on...

Maybe there are two types of fans- [[A) ones who like and enjoy an authentic group performance, the kind the gives the group a defining identity; and [[B) those who don't worry about who is doing the background, but just enjoy a song as long as everything melds together flawlessly.

I think record companies in general got used to going for the overall sound, feeling the general public didn't care one way or the other who was actually on a record. Phil Spector certainly didn't care if the other Ronettes or Crystals were on a record or not. In fact, he regularly used a battalion of other voices on his records. Only the lead singer mattered.

If anything, I like the recordings that, if they used the Andantes, it was in addition to the Marvelettes' voices. I think Dean and Weatherspoon were good in that regard for the most part. "Young And In Love" is the best example of that approach.

You've got a good point there, WaitingWatching. On records like "When You're Young And In Love" [[which, BTW, is one my favorite Marvelettes recordings), you definitely get the best of both worlds -- The Marvelettes AND The Andantes!

[westgrandboulevard]

'Don't Make Hurting Me A Habit' is, for me, another beautiful blend of The Marvelettes and The Andantes, creating a layered, chorale effect where everyone has a valid presence on the recording.

IMO, just in an artistic sense, The Andantes were present to discreetly enhance The Marvelettes sound, not to completely replace them on all recordings. It's quite reasonable to add them to the original voices, when in the business of making records. But then, it always had to be about 'business' and availability of singers, which is understood.

The only track where I feel The Andantes simply were not needed was 'Anything You Wanna Do'....way too prominent, to the point of being really annoying...:rolleyes: [[but just love that sax....)

[CoolKatz]

Hi Fullfillingnessfirstfinale [[your member name's even longer than mine lol)


After Gladys Horton left The Marvelettes, it seems session singers were then always used for background work, instead of any Marvelettes.

'I'm Gonna Hold Long As I Can' [[originally assigned to Brenda Holloway) was recorded after Gladys had left, so would be Ann and session singers, and who certainly sound like The Andantes.

Same with 'Breakthru [[I've Got My Freedom)', which was originally assigned to Gladys Knight & The Pips. Session singers sound like The Andantes, but could possibly include Ann herself?

'Why'd You Do It' [[also first assigned to GK&P) : session singers don't sound like The Andantes at all, but could still include Ann?


I'm pretty sure I hear Wanda and possibly Kat on "Breakthrough". I also hear some additional vocals blending it together

[kenneth]

'Don't Make Hurting Me A Habit' is, for me, another beautiful blend of The Marvelettes and The Andantes, creating a layered, chorale effect where everyone has a valid presence on the recording.

IMO, just in an artistic sense, The Andantes were present to discreetly enhance The Marvelettes sound, not to completely replace them on all recordings. It's quite reasonable to add them to the original voices, when in the business of making records. But then, it always had to be about 'business' and availability of singers, which is understood.

The only track where I feel The Andantes simply were not needed was 'Anything You Wanna Do'....way too prominent, to the point of being really annoying...:rolleyes: [[but just love that sax....)

Were they really using the Andantes as long back as "Anything You Wanna Do?" That was a pretty early B-side as I recall. I didn't think the Andantes came into being until '65 or even '66. Am I wrong?

[reese]

Were they really using the Andantes as long back as "Anything You Wanna Do?" That was a pretty early B-side as I recall. I didn't think the Andantes came into being until '65 or even '66. Am I wrong?

I believe the Andantes were being used at times on all of the girl groups, as early as 1963, maybe earlier. For ANYTHING YOU WANNA DO, I think they are singing the high parts.

[bradsupremes]

I'm pretty sure I hear Wanda and possibly Kat on "Breakthrough". I also hear some additional vocals blending it together

You're right. "Breakthru" is Wanda and Kat with the Andantes added for sweetening. Motown missed out on releasing "Breakthru" has a single. The second I heard it I knew it was a great track and I think it could have done well on the charts.

[westgrandboulevard]

Just as one example, The Andantes are certainly on 'Baby I Need You Loving', completed May 7th 1964.

It would be interesting to know which was the first release on which the voices of The Andantes could be heard. It could easily be 1963....

I think Louvain was the first soprano, had a greater vocal range, and who took the top notes. Marlene was either second soprano or alto, and Jackie was definitely contralto, with her rich, warmer tones.

None of The Marvelettes had a soprano singing voice. They were all altos, though Wanda would often employ a falsetto tone, which wasn't within her natural singing register. Gladys also would occasionally use falsetto, as on 'Little Girl Blue'.

When The Marvelettes were down to three members, being all alto singing voices, it would have been harder for them, without a soprano, to produce three-part harmony as effectively as did The Supremes, or Martha & The Vandellas.

So, whenever The Andantes were used on Marvelettes recordings, theirs are the higher notes heard, very often in three-part harmony, or heavenly 'oooooooo' notes.

One notable exception is 'I'll Keep [[On) Holding On' [[Wanda singing in her natural register) where background voices seem to be The Andantes singing in unison, with mellow alto voices...and effectively replicating The Marvelettes' sound, but with a warmer tone.

[WaitingWatchingLookingForAChance]

You've got a good point there, WaitingWatching. On records like "When You're Young And In Love" [[which, BTW, is one my favorite Marvelettes recordings), you definitely get the best of both worlds -- The Marvelettes AND The Andantes!

Exactly! [[grin!) I love when it's done that way. It's almost like what they do today in music where you've got the artist and they have some "guest artist" on the song too. When Dean/Weatherspoon produced the Marvelettes like on "When You're Young And In Love" and "Now Is The Time For Love", it's kind of like having the group and a "guest group" on the same record. And the way they had the Marvelettes doing their parts and the Andantes doing something different, it's exactly like you said: the best of both worlds! ;)

[WaitingWatchingLookingForAChance]

Were they really using the Andantes as long back as "Anything You Wanna Do?" That was a pretty early B-side as I recall. I didn't think the Andantes came into being until '65 or even '66. Am I wrong?

That, to me, was a good one, because it was a case where The Marvelettes were prominent as well as the Andantes. But as reese said, The Andantes were doing the very high "ahhs and oohs" while the Marvelettes were doing some damn fine harmonizing on the main lyrics.

That one knocked me out because it was the first time I heard the Marvelettes harmonizing in a way that sounded very stylistically sophisticated. To me, if you can focus on what The Marvs were doing, it was not unlike something you would have heard from earlier groups like the 1940's group, The Andrews Sisters. The fact that the girls were harmonizing entire lines together, not just call-and-response, demonstrated that they could be amazingly good if given the chance.

I love the effect of having the Marvelettes and Andantes each doing their thing on this. It gave the record a sound that was nothing at all like what anyone else was doing at Motown, although it does tickle me that the record is almost like a duet [[or a battle of the bands!) between the two groups!

This is the record I always point out when people start talking about the Marvelettes not being able to harmonize.

[WaitingWatchingLookingForAChance]

Just as one example, The Andantes are certainly on 'Baby I Need You Loving', completed May 7th 1964.

It would be interesting to know which was the first release on which the voices of The Andantes could be heard. It could easily be 1963....

I think Louvain was the first soprano, had a greater vocal range, and who took the top notes. Marlene was either second soprano or alto, and Jackie was definitely contralto, with her rich, warmer tones.

None of The Marvelettes had a soprano singing voice. They were all altos, though Wanda would often employ a falsetto tone, which wasn't within her natural singing register. Gladys also would occasionally use falsetto, as on 'Little Girl Blue'.

When The Marvelettes were down to three members, being all alto singing voices, it would have been harder for them, without a soprano, to produce three-part harmony as effectively as did The Supremes, or Martha & The Vandellas.

So, whenever The Andantes were used on Marvelettes recordings, theirs are the higher notes heard, very often in three-part harmony, or heavenly 'oooooooo' notes.

One notable exception is 'I'll Keep [[On) Holding On' [[Wanda singing in her natural register) where background voices seem to be The Andantes singing in unison, with mellow alto voices...and effectively replicating The Marvelettes' sound, but with a warmer tone.

Wow, Westgrand, what an excellent breakdown of the styles of both groups. I had never thought about the sound being influenced by the fact that Katherine, Wanda and Gladys were all alto singers. You brought up something too that I always thought was interesting about "I'll Keep Holding On", the Andantes really do a fantastic job of sounding like you'd expect Katherine and Gladys would have sounded if they had done the backgrounds.

All these great illuminating comments! I wish Soulful Detroit and you guys had been around back in the 80's when I was really getting into Motown. It is VERY difficult to be a teenager of the 80's listening to music of the 60's!

[motony]

I'm not gonna swear on a Bible, but I thought the vocals of "I"ll Keep Holding On" were done in NYC, as the Marvelettes were at the Apollo and Mickey wanted to get it done. The first time I heard of the Andantes were they along with the Love Tones were listed on the Mary Wells 45 "Laughing Boy"., 1963.

[reese]

I'm not gonna swear on a Bible, but I thought the vocals of "I"ll Keep Holding On" were done in NYC, as the Marvelettes were at the Apollo and Mickey wanted to get it done. The first time I heard of the Andantes were they along with the Love Tones were listed on the Mary Wells 45 "Laughing Boy"., 1963.

I do remember reading somewhere that the vocals for both I'LL KEEP HOLDING ON and DANGER HEARTBREAK DEAD AHEAD were done in NYC because Mickey didn't want to wait for the girls to get back to Detroit.

[westgrandboulevard]

Interesting....

DFTMC notes that 'Danger Heartbreak Dead Ahead' was recorded entirely at Hitsville. The 'Forever' box set notes that the band track was recorded May 31 1965 [[assigned to Martha & The Vandellas) and The Marvelettes completed it, June 2 1965.

DFTMC also notes that 'I'll Keep Holding On' was also recorded entirely at Hitsville, completed on April 21 1965.

I've also heard the story that the tape of 'I'll Keep Holding On' was flown out to NYC for vocals.

Not heard the same about 'Danger Heartbreak Dead Ahead'...but if the story is true about 'IKHO', then it could be true about 'DHDA'...except the recording dates don't appear to tally?

In the case of the NYC story being true, I would imagine the band track was recorded at Hitsville, flown out to NYC, and vocals by at least Wanda, if not all the Marvelettes, recorded. btw Wanda's lead vocal is, to me, a revelation. Seldom did she sing with quite such fire and attack.

The notes on the 'Forever' box set are inconclusive [[and generally not as comprehensive as on the 'Forever More' box set), particularly on which date the band track was recorded, and when the lead vocal was recorded, or where.

'Recorded April 5 1965; background vocals April 16; additional or new backgrounds and other overdubs recorded April 21 1965.'

If April 5 1965 was the recording date for both the band track [[definitely Hitsville) and the lead vocal [[which is unlikely?), then the NYC story has to be untrue?

If the recording date of the band track is not known or given, and April 5 1965 is the recording date for the lead vocal [[in NYC?) then it seems the background vocals were not recorded on that same date.

However, the notes do indicate that the background vocals [[be they Marvelettes, Andantes, or possibly both) recorded on April 16 were then replaced on April 21 by the voices of The Andantes.

Anyone here care to check those dates for any errors on my part - and make more sense of them?:)

[reese]

...DFTMC also notes that 'I'll Keep Holding On' was also recorded entirely at Hitsville, completed on April 21 1965.

I've also heard the story that the tape of 'I'll Keep Holding On' was flown out to NYC for vocals.

Not heard the same about 'Danger Heartbreak Dead Ahead'...but if the story is true about 'IKHO', then it could be true about 'DHDA'...except the recording dates don't appear to tally?...

I'd like to correct my earlier post. In the notes for DELIVER: THE SINGLES 1961-1971, it is mentioned that I'LL KEEP HOLDING ON was unusual among Marvelettes songs because it was recorded in New York instead of Detroit. There is a quote from Gladys Horton:

"Mickey Stevenson came to New York and they rented a studio. They wanted to get those songs recorded so bad they couldn't wait for us to get back to Detroit."

I mistakenly thought the other song was HEARTBREAK because Gladys mentioned "songs" plural in her quote, but the notes neglect to mention what the other songs might be.

[jobeterob]

My memory is the Andantes are on Run Run Run - in 1963

[westgrandboulevard]

That one was completed on May 27 1963....and I hear The Andantes on The Marvelettes' 'Tie A String Around Your Finger', completed June 12 1963....

[marv2]

My memory is the Andantes are on Run Run Run - in 1963

They are not on that record. "Run, Run, Run" was recorded by the Supremes with the Four Tops and Holland, Dozier, Holland on the background. Your memory is shot or is severely lying to you..........hehehehehehehehehe!

[Philles/Motown Gary]

As to how early The Andantes started recording as in-house back-up singers with Motown, they appeared live on stage with Kim Weston as early as the Motortown Review [[Vol. 2) LP which was released on Motown in April 1964. Kim even credtited them verbally during her on-stage performance. At age 13, I remember how impressed I was with their fantastic and powerful harmonies.

The Andantes have appeared on Kim's studio recordings from her very first Tamla 45 -- "Love Me All The Way" -- released in June 1963, followed by "Just Loving You" and "Looking For The Right Guy" as well as, I think, every Motown recording that Kim ever made on Tamla as well as her later recordings on the Gordy label [["Take Me In Your Arms", "Helpless", "A Thrill A Moment", etc.).

In 1964, I also remember The Andantes absolutely shining on Eddie Holland's "Just Ain't Enough Love" and "Candy To Me".

From then on, I've been a die-hard Andantes fan.

[Philles/Motown Gary]

Kenny, how could I forget -- In answer to your question, The Andantes were prominently featured on the very first Motown single I ever bought which was Mary Wells "My Guy" in the early summer of 1964. [[Also, see my post just ahead of this one regarding The Andantes' early recordings with Kim Weston.)

[westgrandboulevard]

As Kim Weston's 'Love Me All The Way' was completed on November 19 1962, that now gives an even earlier date for The Andantes to feature on a recording.

Like Philles/Motown Gary, I love 'Just Ain't Enough Love' and 'Candy To Me'.

One of my very favourite Andantes' recordings is Tommy Good's 'Baby I Miss You'. Their harmony on "oh yeahhhh!' at 2.35 and 2.47 is just sublime. You can hear each of their three individual notes, and also their combined harmony note.

Something changed with the Andante harmonies through the following years, and they became subdued, and far less uninhibited and joyful.

I'm not sure, but maybe it wasn't always Louvain, Marlene and Jackie singing together, and that other voices made up the trio, which then changed their sound. Pat Lewis?

[reese]

As Kim Weston's 'Love Me All The Way' was completed on November 19 1962, that now gives an even earlier date for The Andantes to feature on a recording.

Like Philles/Motown Gary, I love 'Just Ain't Enough Love' and 'Candy To Me'.

One of my very favourite Andantes' recordings is Tommy Good's 'Baby I Miss You'. Their harmony on "oh yeahhhh!' at 2.35 and 2.47 is just sublime. You can hear each of their three individual notes, and also their combined harmony note.

Something changed with the Andante harmonies through the following years, and they became subdued, and far less uninhibited and joyful.

I'm not sure, but maybe it wasn't always Louvain, Marlene and Jackie singing together, and that other voices made up the trio, which then changed their sound. Pat Lewis?

In the book GIRL GROUPS by John Clemente, it says that one of the Andantes first assignments was doing the background for Eddie Holland's JAMIE, which I think was late '61 / early '62.

I've also read that Pat Lewis did some background vocals with the Andantes, one of which was the Supremes' MERRY CHRISTMAS album. Pat also was a member of the group when they recorded for Motorcity.

Re other backup vocalists, I always assumed that the Andantes couldn't have done EVERY background vocal. Surely their vocal cords needed a rest.:) But I also recall reading a 70s or 80s article with Michael Lovesmith and he said that his aunts had a group called the Shepherd Sisters and they did a lot of background vocals.

[westgrandboulevard]

...all of which leads me to realise I have yet to buy myself a copy of 'Motown From The Background' biography of The Andantes.

Comments about it from anyone?

[marv2]

I believe Louvain Demps was a part of the Rayber Voices, a group that sang backup on Berry Gordy productions prior to the formation of the Andantes.

[jobucats]

...all of which leads me to realise I have yet to buy myself a copy of 'Motown From The Background' biography of The Andantes.

Comments about it from anyone?

I purchased it and really enjoy it. It's written in a very relaxed style and provides the obvious biography of each of the ladies. It does include a quite a number of reflections of what it was like working at Motown and with its artists. I highly recommend it.

[Philles/Motown Gary]

...all of which leads me to realise I have yet to buy myself a copy of 'Motown From The Background' biography of The Andantes.

Comments about it from anyone?
By all means, westgrand -- get it while the gettin' is good. You won't be sorry. Your only regret will be that the book isn't longer. [[Given that it's The Andantes, could it ever be long enough?!!! Same with The Marvelettes' book -- excellent reading but left me wanting more.)

[captainjames]

Definitely recommend it because of the history that is represented. They were truly unsung TEAM MOTOWN.......and they never said a word.

[westgrandboulevard]

Many thanks for that Jobucats, and Philles/Motown Gary. I will get a copy of The Andantes' book.

Yes, I would say The Marvelettes book is very worthwhile reading, as far as it goes.

I won't say I was disappointed, but one drawback is it doesn't contain the depth of insight into career and recording details as, say, found in the books by Mary and Martha.

In reading it, I started to find it hard to escape the feeling that there may never have been a great depth of interest within the group in what was recorded by them, details of the recordings, live appearances and general anecdotes.

Maybe I missed it but, as a fan and follower of the group, I would have liked to have seen more evidence of pride being shown in the career of The Marvelettes.

Or maybe Katherine, as the spokesperson, feels not so many people would be interested now...and perhaps, after so many years have passed, the memories are simply not there any more. Now that I could well understand....

[kenneth]

I liked Marc Taylor's book about the Marvelettes as well, but I think it suffered from not having the participation/cooperation of Gladys and, sadly, Wanda.

Although I will say Katherine seemed quite balanced and fair in her comments about the group and its decline. Of course by now we all know about Wanda's demons, but Katherine never seemed to have any animosity towards her. But Katherine is indeed a very special person. When her son, Jason 'Tony' Schaffner, was murdered in Detroit, in the obituary all she said about him and the way he died was he "never met a stranger." Obviously, a courageous soul.

The only other thing about the book that I thought was a bit of overkill was how much time was spent analyzing the Marvelettes' singles. I like reading musical critiques, but it seemed he spent more time on the lyrics and story line of the songs.

Finally, how impressive is it that you guys know so well the singers' key and how to recognize the Andantes in the mix! You guys are experts. And how great is it to have such a great, productive thread about a different girl group! [[Now don't start, anybody!)

[westgrandboulevard]

First time I heard 'Tie A String Around Your Finger', I registered voices singing low notes, then high notes.

I remember thinking how good they were....and then, in my naivety, found myself thinking "yes, they're really good. They can all sing high and low, at the same time"...LOL

When it soon dawned on me that this would be impossible, and that there were extra ladies involved, I just started listening out for them......

[westgrandboulevard]

On the subject of Marvelettes' backgrounds....

Carolyn Crawford : Keep Stepping [[Never Look Back)

'Track cut 30 May 1965 and assigned to The Vandellas; Marvelettes dub-in on 2 June 1965; Carolyn Crawford dub-in later the same day on 2 June 1965'

[[source: notes by Paul Nixon, for 'A Cellarful Of Motown! Volume 2')

The Marvelettes may never, as Katherine has said, have done session background work for anyone else, but that has to be the Marvelettes background vocals left on the track, when Carolyn Crawford's lead was dubbed in?

It has always sounded like them, to me, and June 2 1965 was also the date of completion for 'Danger Heartbreak Dead Ahead'...

[gordy_hunk]

On the In Full Bloom album, Wanda sang lead on all except "Everybody Knows But You"which was lead by Ann

Many thanks for the information.

This thread has been one of the most informative I've seen for a long time. Clearly there's an abundance of love for the Marvelettes about the group, as well as a massive amount of knowledge.

I love the photograph jsmith - I never knew that was taken in Kingston Upon Hull.

[westgrandboulevard]

I was assuming that particular photo was a most ingenious, computer generated modification of the original - ?

Or did The Marvelettes, with Ann, really visit Kingston-upon-Hull after all, I wonder....:)

[snakepit]

Did they go to " HULL and back" ?

[westgrandboulevard]

LOL! According to Katherine's comments in Marc Taylor's book about the later years with The Marvelettes, the answer would indeed seem to be "yes".....:rolleyes:

[jobeterob]

I purchased it and really enjoy it. It's written in a very relaxed style and provides the obvious biography of each of the ladies. It does include a quite a number of reflections of what it was like working at Motown and with its artists. I highly recommend it.

Every Motown fan needs to read Motown from the Background - the writing was pretty basic but we all needed to hear what was said

[sup_fan]

i've always thought the Andantes joined the girls on Too Many Fish In the Sea. obviously the four marvelettes share the lead lines. but i think there are session singers doing the 3 or 4 part harmony when they sing "too many fish in the sea, too many fish in the sea." the harmonies are perfect and really balanced. That's not typically how the marvelettes sounded.

[Fullfillingnessfirstfinale]

Just as one example, The Andantes are certainly on 'Baby I Need You Loving', completed May 7th 1964.

It would be interesting to know which was the first release on which the voices of The Andantes could be heard. It could easily be 1963....

I think Louvain was the first soprano, had a greater vocal range, and who took the top notes. Marlene was either second soprano or alto, and Jackie was definitely contralto, with her rich, warmer tones.

None of The Marvelettes had a soprano singing voice. They were all altos, though Wanda would often employ a falsetto tone, which wasn't within her natural singing register. Gladys also would occasionally use falsetto, as on 'Little Girl Blue'.

When The Marvelettes were down to three members, being all alto singing voices, it would have been harder for them, without a soprano, to produce three-part harmony as effectively as did The Supremes, or Martha & The Vandellas.

So, whenever The Andantes were used on Marvelettes recordings, theirs are the higher notes heard, very often in three-part harmony, or heavenly 'oooooooo' notes.

One notable exception is 'I'll Keep [[On) Holding On' [[Wanda singing in her natural register) where background voices seem to be The Andantes singing in unison, with mellow alto voices...and effectively replicating The Marvelettes' sound, but with a warmer tone.

Is that really true, that The Marvelettes had no soprano voices ? I can´t belive it because I never read anything about that fact in the Marvelettes book. I think in the marvelettes book must be documentary that fact !

Well I think in my opinion only The Supremes were a unique group with unique voices from 1962 - 1967. For example The Marvelettes or Martha Reeves and The Vandellas were defined over the lead singer. I have open a new thread after reading that The Marvelettes have no Live recordings in the faults from 1966 - 1969 ! Maybe it was impossible for the group to perform on stage, because of the missing voices or the sound was too bad ?

[reese]

Is that really true, that The Marvelettes had no soprano voices ? I can´t belive it because I never read anything about that fact in the Marvelettes book. I think in the marvelettes book must be documentary that fact !

Well I think in my opinion only The Supremes were a unique group with unique voices from 1962 - 1967. For example The Marvelettes or Martha Reeves and The Vandellas were defined over the lead singer. I have open a new thread after reading that The Marvelettes have no Live recordings in the faults from 1966 - 1969 ! Maybe it was impossible for the group to perform on stage, because of the missing voices or the sound was too bad ?

I don't have the Marvelettes book in front of me, but I thought there was a section that listed the different voices in the group, as to who was a soprano, alto, etc.

Re their onstage ability, maybe they couldn't duplicate the exact sound that the Andantes added to their recordings, but I doubt Motown would have kept the group on the road if they weren't able to perform well on stage.

[westgrandboulevard]

Yes, Reese, it's noted on Page 9 of Mark Taylor's book.

Technically, Katherine was considered to have a mezzo-soprano singing voice [[sometimes known as second soprano), which meant she would have the ability to sing higher notes than many contr[[alto) singers.

The Marvelettes could sing in harmony, and certainly did so on their earlier recordings, and it has to be assumed that Katherine would have sung the top notes.

With the change in members over the years, and who were generally all alto singing voices, it certainly sounds as if the group's harmonies were brought down the scale a little, perhaps to make their sound more mellow?

In that event, Katherine would still sing the top notes, but just not as near the top of her range, and so singing more as if she were a natural alto.

Increasingly, The Marvelettes seemed to be recorded singing more in unison, with The Andantes brought in to harmonise, and singing higher notes, simply to enhance the recordings.

There is nothing unusual about a female group featuring all alto voices, and who can harmonise, but just not at the top end of the singing scale. ...

The Marvelettes were very talented, who not only could sing, but could put on a great, energetic show.

It just seems that, for whatever reasons there may be, their talents did not reach their full potential. And I think that is something we all regret....

[westgrandboulevard]

A few years ago, there was at least one pic [[maybe several?) posted on SD of Wanda, Kat/herine and Ann, on-stage.

Different pic from the one on the back of the cover for 'Best Of The Marvelettes', released in January 1975, here in the UK. I don't think 'Anthology' had an official release here, but I picked up a copy...[[and remember being disappointed there was no booklet:[[).

Can anyone remember the pic[[s), know how to locate them, and post them here- ?

[reese]

I've only seen one photo of Ann on stage with the group. They had on pink dresses, and Kat was in the middle. It looked like they were on stage at the Twenty Grand. It was in the book MOTOWN THE HISTORY by Sharon Davis.

I just saw it during a Google image search. It has a Getty Images stamp on it.

[westgrandboulevard]

Yes, that's indeed the photo on the reverse of the UK 'Best Of' release.

It has [[Hamilton) Bohannon's band sign shown in the background.

The Marvelettes look so good there, really cool and elegant in those long pink gowns....but I guess they had toned down their act towards the end of the '60s.

There's definitely at least one more on-stage pic out there, somewhere......

[sup_fan]

complex harmonies require much more than simply being in the range of a singer. being a soprano, mezzo, alto, etc simply identifies where the center of your range is - where you're able to easily and comfortably hit notes outside of headvoice. being able to shift or jump from a unison line or melody and into harmony requires vocal skill, training and talent. As Gladys mentions in the Marvelettes book, she felt that the group simply didn't have that skill, as opposed to the Supremes. their ability to quickly and accurately record harmonies is probably much of the decision to have them simply sing in unison and then add the andantes.

When the girls were doing their earlier work, it was a more teen-age/girl group sound and approach. the phase has been used that they were "adolescently off key" which was fine for songs like Playboy and Please Mr postman. But as they matured and advanced into more sophisticated songs, that doesn't work as well. Maybe if they had more time to rehearse the material and prepare, they could have done it. but motown was wanting to move fast and it was just easier to have the andantes do it.

[phil]

Yes, that's indeed the photo on the reverse of the UK 'Best Of' release.
.

Here it is :

https://img.discogs.com/WMoFlXsiVNEjDJXQ0vhR3hteKv4=/fit-in/600x594/filters:strip_icc[[):format[[jpeg):mode_rgb[[):qualit y[[90)/discogs-images/R-1824747-1351089353-6261.jpeg.jpg

[kenneth]

Can someone post the front of the Marvelettes Greatest Hits album? I've never seen this LP before. Beautiful photo on the back, have never seen that before either.

[phil]

Here it is Kenneth :

https://img.discogs.com/tmoMBPLpxXT6EN4iVeSzGM_Jxt0=/fit-in/600x576/filters:strip_icc[[):format[[jpeg):mode_rgb[[):qualit y[[90)/discogs-images/R-1824747-1351089326-9339.jpeg.jpg