Another Elgins Thought

[daviddesper]

There has been frequent discussion about why this group never achieved a higher level of success, so here is a different take on that question.....if they HAD made it big, is it possible that Motown might then have passed on the chance to bring Gladys and her Pips into the fold? Might there have been the opinion that one mixed group with a female lead was enough?

[bradsupremes]

I don’t think so. Gladys is one of the greatest soul singers of all-time. Saundra Mallett and the Elgins had nothing on Gladys and the Pips. I have a hard time believing Motown would want to pass on them. Then again, Motown initially passed on the 5th Dimension [[although I’ve heard different stories Motown actually did want to sign them, but Marc Gordon took them and Jimmy Webb with him when he left for Johnny Rivers’ label).

The Elgins recorded some great stuff, but I don’t think they had that special quality to be huge. They were missing that extra something that the other artists had. Gladys and the Pips were already established performers and when they entered into the fold in 1966 and Motown saw what they could do in the studio and on stage, they were done with the Elgins.

[kenneth]

I'm a huge Gladys Knight fan, but I do think Saundra Mallett was a very underrated gem of a singer with such a moody quality to her voice. I think her voice sounds instantly unique which to me is so critical for a singer. I'm sure there were lots of better singers at Motown but I don't think anyone sounded like her.

But what a fun comparison to be able to make. Both were great singers.

[WaitingWatchingLookingForAChance]

I don’t think so. Gladys is one of the greatest soul singers of all-time. Saundra Mallett and the Elgins had nothing on Gladys and the Pips. I have a hard time believing Motown would want to pass on them.

The Elgins recorded some great stuff, but I don’t think they had that special quality to be huge. They were missing that extra something that the other artists had. Gladys and the Pips were already established performers and when they entered into the fold in 1966 and Motown saw what they could do in the studio and on stage, they were done with the Elgins.

I think you summed it up pretty well. I love the Elgins, but like you said, they were not a household name. Also, Gladys Knight and The Pips had an excellent reputation as great visual performers. It seems they also may have had a good rapport with their audiences and DJs. If I recall, it wasn't due to Motown's initial promotion of the record but because of DJS and the fans of Gladys Knight and The Pips.

[WaitingWatchingLookingForAChance]

There has been frequent discussion about why this group never achieved a higher level of success, so here is a different take on that question.....if they HAD made it big, is it possible that Motown might then have passed on the chance to bring Gladys and her Pips into the fold? Might there have been the opinion that one mixed group with a female lead was enough?

I have a feeling that had the Elgins broke bigger than they did, Motown still would have signed Gladys and The Pips. Motown was flooded with female solo singers and male solo singers but that didn't stop them from signing even more. Marvin was a big success as a solo male star, yet Motown signed Edwin Starr and Chuck Jackson- probably in hopes of striking gold another time. Motown was forever looking for new talent and when they saw someone with that "IT" factor, they went for it.

[Quinn]

I think it was a matter of Motown having too many talented acts and not enough time. Sandra was a solo act who came to the company in the early days and so did the guys as The Downbeats. With so much going on,but with concern for them both management brought them together as The Elgins. Merge them,make them one act and see what happens.

Most people don't seem to see in addition is that their success came about through persistence and reluctance. One of the guys in the group was a driver who often drove the Hollands around town and would always ask them to write a song for them. Being that they were low on the pecking order HDH wasn't enthusiastic about working with them,but relented. "Darling Baby" became a surprise hit as the flip to "Put Yourself In My Place". Then came "Heaven Must Have Sent You" the following year and that was basically it.

So in my estimation a group that Motown put on the shelf brought in some unexpected money. It was company policy to attempt to follow up every hit which they did and got a little more money. But given that the group was a low priority management figured at some point they would fade. They rolled the dice with little promotion, hoping to get a seven or eleven and wound up with two of the latter. When they could no longer score with the group on sheer luck the company put them back where they wanted them anyway. Motown gambled with less effort until the chips were gone,"Hey, their 5 minutes is up". The songs that they were given were B minus,what I like to call "Piano Bench" material,it just worked for a minute.

That's what I believe was the case leaving Gladys & The Pips completely out of it. It was a matter of persistence, reluctance and luck. The simple flip of a record,getting a surprise hit and letting the chips fall wherever after that.

[marv2]

There has been frequent discussion about why this group never achieved a higher level of success, so here is a different take on that question.....if they HAD made it big, is it possible that Motown might then have passed on the chance to bring Gladys and her Pips into the fold? Might there have been the opinion that one mixed group with a female lead was enough?

I am almost certain that once Gladys Knight and the Pips joined Motown it was a consideration to push one and not the other. I like the Elgins, but Gladys and the Pips were far more polished, had already had a few hits and were fairly well known around the country. When Gladys and the Pips hit in 1967, the Elgins broke up.

[bradsupremes]

Most people don't seem to see in addition is that their success came about through persistence and reluctance. One of the guys in the group was a driver who often drove the Hollands around town and would always ask them to write a song for them. Being that they were low on the pecking order HDH wasn't enthusiastic about working with them,but relented. "Darling Baby" became a surprise hit as the flip to "Put Yourself In My Place". Then came "Heaven Must Have Sent You" the following year and that was basically it.

It should be noted none of those tracks mentioned were written for the Elgins. They were written and cut for the Supremes, but then reassigned to the Elgins as a way to give them something. In a odd twist, “Going Down For The Third Time” was written for the Elgins but got reassigned to the Supremes.

[kenneth]

It should be noted none of those tracks mentioned were written for the Elgins. They were written and cut for the Supremes, but then reassigned to the Elgins as a way to give them something. In a odd twist, “Going Down For The Third Time” was written for the Elgins but got reassigned to the Supremes.

So the Supremes' versions were cut earlier than the Elgins' versions? I didn't realize that.

I'm not sure I've heard the Sups' version of "Darling Baby." When did it finally come out?

[bradsupremes]

So the Supremes' versions were cut earlier than the Elgins' versions? I didn't realize that.

I'm not sure I've heard the Sups' version of "Darling Baby." When did it finally come out?

Those three Elgins tracks were all originally cut for the Supremes, but the tracks got reassigned to the Elgins so there are no Supremes vocals recorded. A new track for "Put Yourself In My Place" was cut in 1966 and that ended up on A' Go-Go. HDH cut "Heaven Must Have Sent You" in 1967 and that version received Supremes vocals.

[paul_nixon]

So the Supremes' versions were cut earlier than the Elgins' versions? I didn't realize that.

I'm not sure I've heard the Sups' version of "Darling Baby." When did it finally come out?

DRATS never recorded a version - this is just the way Motown went about things the track was assigned to them but was then re-assigned to the Elgins who recorded the only vocal on this song. In actual fact the track was reassigned to the Downbeats in the paperwork. There also appears to have been an alternate vocal.

[kenneth]

DRATS never recorded a version - this is just the way Motown went about things the track was assigned to them but was then re-assigned to the Elgins who recorded the only vocal on this song. In actual fact the track was reassigned to the Downbeats in the paperwork. There also appears to have been an alternate vocal.

Oh right. Thanks Paul.

[mysterysinger]

Good thread, but it's a bit like saying that Motown had The Marvelettes so why would they need The Supremes or Martha & The Vandellas.

Motown also had The Monitors but tended to be more of a male lead [[and created some beautiful sounds).

[bradsupremes]

Good thread, but it's a bit like saying that Motown had The Marvelettes so why would they need The Supremes or Martha & The Vandellas.

Motown also had The Monitors but tended to be more of a male lead [[and created some beautiful sounds).

I don't know what it was, but Motown had a big problem with having a vast catalog of artists and never giving any of them the attention they deserved. It may be one of the reason why lots of artists were bitter toward Motown after they left. They were promised all sorts of things only for things to turn up empty-handed. The top acts got all the promotion and attention and you had lesser-known groups with great songs but failed to crack the charts.

Motown had no problem with promoting multiple guy artists [[solo & group). When it came to the female artists, it seemed like they could only focus on one at a time. First Mary Wells, then the Supremes which shifted to Diana Ross. I tend to think Berry Gordy was so laser focused on Diana's solo career and success that the other female artists like Brenda, Kim, and Tammi didn't get the promotion they deserved. All three of them could have been huge stars if given the push.

I sometimes wonder if Motown didn't know what to do with mixed groups. It wasn't something new to music. If you look at the doo-wop era, you had the Platters, Ruby & the Romantics, etc. Did Motown know how to classify them? If they had a female lead vocalists like the Elgins or Gladys & the Pips, they tend to be grouped with the female artists. If they had a male lead singer like the Monitors, they got grouped with the male artists.

I brought this up in another thread, but it makes me wonder about the 5th Dimension's audition for Motown. It's been said Motown passed on them, but I have a hard time believing Motown would pass up their dynamic harmonies. They would pass up the 5th Dimension, yet sign Little Lisa? I mean, really? I don't know if it was because they were didn't have a set lead singer as they would trade-off leads between Billy Davis Jr., Marilyn McCoo, Florence LaRue, and sometimes Ron Townson that Motown didn't know how they would market them so they passed. Or they thought since they had Gladys & the Pips, the Elgins and the Monitors that they had enough mixed groups? Then again I heard several stories that Motown actually did want to sign them, but since Marc Gordon was their manager and he was leaving Motown that he took them with him when he left. I heard he also convinced Jimmy Webb to go with him as well to Johnny Rivers' Soul City Records.

[marv2]

Good thread, but it's a bit like saying that Motown had The Marvelettes so why would they need The Supremes or Martha & The Vandellas.

Motown also had The Monitors but tended to be more of a male lead [[and created some beautiful sounds).

The Supremes were there at Motown before those other groups. What you are saying here is exactly what "someone" also thought, which why and how she became Berry Gordy's secretary......... LOL!

[RanRan79]

There has been frequent discussion about why this group never achieved a higher level of success, so here is a different take on that question.....if they HAD made it big, is it possible that Motown might then have passed on the chance to bring Gladys and her Pips into the fold? Might there have been the opinion that one mixed group with a female lead was enough?

Doubtful. There was no novelty in mixed groups, so there shouldn't have been any hesitation about signing multiple ones. There were already dozens of male artists, female artists, male groups, and female groups signed to the label, so I don't see why the mixed groups would've been any different.

[RanRan79]

I don't know what it was, but Motown had a big problem with having a vast catalog of artists and never giving any of them the attention they deserved.

I don't know that Motown had any more of a problem with that than any other record label. I think they all subscribed to the thought of sign as many artists as possible and increase the odds of having signed artists who can make the label a buttload of money. Perhaps Motown has a brighter light shone upon it because it was a smaller label and in such a short period of time Motown appears to have had more hit making artists on the roster than just about anyone else. [[I don't know that to be fact, so if someone can correct me or add to my statement, I'd appreciate it.)

But I do think Motown made promises it knew it couldn't keep. And IMO there is something unethical about signing artists to contracts that the artist can't get out of, despite the fact that they've been recorded, charged for sessions, and either had one or two releases or none at all. No artist signs with a label for bragging rights alone [["I'm a Motown recording artist!"). They want their records released, promoted, pushed and sold and there were times when Motown didn't do those things.

[motony]

many many years ago questions were asked about why Motown signed artists that they really didn't intend to promote or so it seemed and the question answered by someone from the company basically was it was better to have those under contract then to be in competetion with.I can't remember if it was in a Billboard Magazine or an actual book, but it did make sense because it is Show Business with the emphasis on Business.

[WaitingWatchingLookingForAChance]

many many years ago questions were asked about why Motown signed artists that they really didn't intend to promote or so it seemed and the question answered by someone from the company basically was it was better to have those under contract then to be in competetion with.I can't remember if it was in a Billboard Magazine or an actual book, but it did make sense because it is Show Business with the emphasis on Business.

Wasn't that the reasoning behind J.J. Barnes being signed to Motown? Motown didn't take every Golden World artist, just a few, and I'm fairly sure I read a few times that J.J. was signed because he tended to sound a lot like Marvin Gaye. Rather than have him compete with Marvin/Motown, he signed to the label. Too bad his talent was wasted there.

[WaitingWatchingLookingForAChance]

I brought this up in another thread, but it makes me wonder about the 5th Dimension's audition for Motown. It's been said Motown passed on them, but I have a hard time believing Motown would pass up their dynamic harmonies. ... I don't know if it was because they were didn't have a set lead singer as they would trade-off leads between Billy Davis Jr., Marilyn McCoo, Florence LaRue, and sometimes Ron Townson that Motown didn't know how they would market them so they passed. Or they thought since they had Gladys & the Pips, the Elgins and the Monitors that they had enough mixed groups? Then again I heard several stories that Motown actually did want to sign them, but since Marc Gordon was their manager and he was leaving Motown that he took them with him when he left. I heard he also convinced Jimmy Webb to go with him as well to Johnny Rivers' Soul City Records.

In the end, I think it was a blessing of sorts that the 5th Dimension was not signed to Motown. Listening to their albums, there is no way in the world any of their amazing work would have happened at Motown. Motown had a certain way of recording and it worked insanely well, but it wasn't the best way for everyone. I think the group would have been recorded and packaged like all the rest of the Motown stable: Lead and background vocals. Maybe a few rare sessions allowing for their chorale style singing but probably nowhere near what they were given at Soul City. And that would have been a shame.

[Quinn]

many many years ago questions were asked about why Motown signed artists that they really didn't intend to promote or so it seemed and the question answered by someone from the company basically was it was better to have those under contract then to be in competetion with.I can't remember if it was in a Billboard Magazine or an actual book, but it did make sense because it is Show Business with the emphasis on Business. I agree with your point on the competition factor and many other things played a part. If I had to state beyond that from my own observation I think it would come down to the infamous "Write Off". They are and were common practice in the record industry as well in the business landscape period. Many situations in Motown history come to mind like the signing of Frances Nero. Although granted one single with music tracks recorded over a year prior to laying her vocals nothing else was done. Then when she complained about an obvious lack of interest Berry Gordy convinced her to stay for another six months or so. I think that speaks volumes about a hidden agenda.

The MOR artists were also pawns used to familiarize their audiences with the Motown brand and to make DJ's more receptive to their "other" records. More exposure and great tax write off's to boot. If you study the history of the music business you'll see this consistently. Gamble & Huff did it to Archie Bell & The Drells much to his chagrin. By 1967, Berry Gordy's financial advisors tried to get him to cut his roster down,but I suppose it paid in some way to keep them around. Those artists could mean money for the company in the future with unreleased masters too. Look at what Universal are able to do today due to B.G.'s practices even though he probably doesn't reap much of a benefit. Chuck Jackson got there at the wrong time and just missed the boat in my opinion.

Much can be said, but I guess that this is what it comes down to.

[marv2]

many many years ago questions were asked about why Motown signed artists that they really didn't intend to promote or so it seemed and the question answered by someone from the company basically was it was better to have those under contract then to be in competetion with.I can't remember if it was in a Billboard Magazine or an actual book, but it did make sense because it is Show Business with the emphasis on Business.

I read that too. You had artists leave Motown very frustrated because of that practice.

[marv2]

Wasn't that the reasoning behind J.J. Barnes being signed to Motown? Motown didn't take every Golden World artist, just a few, and I'm fairly sure I read a few times that J.J. was signed because he tended to sound a lot like Marvin Gaye. Rather than have him compete with Marvin/Motown, he signed to the label. Too bad his talent was wasted there.

According to J.J. that was the case. He said they would use him as a threat to Marvin Gaye whenever Marvin would get into one of his moods where he did not want to record something.

[WaitingWatchingLookingForAChance]

According to J.J. that was the case. He said they would use him as a threat to Marvin Gaye whenever Marvin would get into one of his moods where he did not want to record something.

I thought I had read something like that. Thanks for confirming that I hadn't imagined it!

[marv2]

I thought I had read something like that. Thanks for confirming that I hadn't imagined it!

You're welcome. J.J. Barnes said it in an interview.

[WaitingWatchingLookingForAChance]

https://youtu.be/xSQQaMiK0HE

I know it's fruitless dwelling on the "what ifs" of life, but when I heard this song on the Anthology collection, it got me wondering how the Elgins' career may have turned out if they had gone with the Dean/Weatherspoon team. Jimmy Ruffin's career was only really ignited once he recorded their "What Becomes Of The Broken Hearted." In the end, his career pretty much ran lukewarm in the States after that monster hit, but still, at least it gave him recognition. I like how The Elgins sound on this Dean/Weatherspoon song and maybe they could have given the group somewhat of an identity as their songs tended to be VERY vivid, nearly mythological tales of love and heartbreak.

https://youtu.be/xSQQaMiK0HE