If Florence had stayed...

[luke]

I sure can hear her singing Stoned Love!

[MarvinDK]

Oh she would have sounded wonderful on it.

However, everything that she would have recorded at Motown would have been better than with ABC...

[Circa 1824]

Jean was a much more talented and skilled singer than Flo.

[jim aka jtigre99]

I think Florence was a good singer but her problems would have continued to cause problems in the group. It may have made Diana Ross leave earlier perhaps in 1967-68 because the unit was starting to break down because of the tensions. I can only ponder then if Motown would have supported a new group of Supremes then with Florence in the lead with Mary and somebody else. I don't think they would have.

[jobucats]

I think Florence was a good singer but her problems would have continued to cause problems in the group. It may have made Diana Ross leave earlier perhaps in 1967-68 because the unit was starting to break down because of the tensions. I can only ponder then if Motown would have supported a new group of Supremes then with Florence in the lead with Mary and somebody else. I don't think they would have.

jim, that is one of the most intelligent comments I've ever read regarding the Florence/Supremes scenarios. I have nothing else to add. Thank you.

[luke]

Just saying she would have sounded great on Stoned Love.

[jim aka jtigre99]

Just saying she would have sounded great on Stoned Love.
I think she would have done a credible job on Stoned Love. Jean really owns this song and Mary, Scherrie and Lynda have all done credible jobs singing it as I am sure Florence would have.

[sup_fan]

Flo had an entirely different style of singing than Jean. Flo's voice is much thicker and heavier. I think she would have done better with a much heavier r&b sound. more in line with what Glady's was doing. the Frank Wilson material for the 70 Sups was ethereal and light, even though the productions were big.

I think Clay MacMurray and his "soap opera soul" would have been a better match

As for the future of the group, I don't know what all would have happened. Flo had a lot of emotional demons and so it's possible she would have still crumbled. I don't know that Flo remaining in the group would have changed much of the course for the DRATS. Cindy really didn't do a whole lot other than fill the 3rd slot - certainly no fault of hers though. Berry was looking for a period of time to groom Diana, expand her horizons and more firmly establish her as a mega star. Flo's departure really didn't have that major of an impact on their records - she already wasn't on You Can't Hurry Love and rumor has it she wasn't on Reflections either. HDH's departure and the changing musical scene is what really lead to the DRATS chart irregularity.

[marv2]

Flo had an entirely different style of singing than Jean. Flo's voice is much thicker and heavier. I think she would have done better with a much heavier r&b sound. more in line with what Glady's was doing. the Frank Wilson material for the 70 Sups was ethereal and light, even though the productions were big.

I think Clay MacMurray and his "soap opera soul" would have been a better match

As for the future of the group, I don't know what all would have happened. Flo had a lot of emotional demons and so it's possible she would have still crumbled. I don't know that Flo remaining in the group would have changed much of the course for the DRATS. Cindy really didn't do a whole lot other than fill the 3rd slot - certainly no fault of hers though. Berry was looking for a period of time to groom Diana, expand her horizons and more firmly establish her as a mega star. Flo's departure really didn't have that major of an impact on their records - she already wasn't on You Can't Hurry Love and rumor has it she wasn't on Reflections either. HDH's departure and the changing musical scene is what really lead to the DRATS chart irregularity.

I disagree. They didn't have many hits after Florence left. Some would say that was due to HDH also leaving. Then that would mean that Diana Ross was not as essential to them getting hit after hit as her fans like to believe. They had nothing but flops with Diane on lead prior to HDH taking them on.

[marv2]

I sure can hear her singing Stoned Love!


I would have loved to hear Flo sing "Somethings You Never Get Used To". I wonder how Flo and Mary would have sounded on "Touch". I also thing Johnny Bristol would have done an excellent job producing Flo on lead and as a solo artist.

[jobeterob]

A flop by Diana sold more than the biggest hit of the 70s Supremes

A major hit by Diana sold more than the entire 70s Supremes entire outputs - especially their albums

[marv2]

A flop by Diana sold more than the biggest hit of the 70s Supremes

A major hit by Diana sold more than the entire 70s Supremes entire outputs - especially their albums

That is mainly because her boyfriend put the full force of the company behind her records in promoting them. I highly doubt he would have promoted records by Florence Ballard.

[marv2]

I think Florence was a good singer but her problems would have continued to cause problems in the group. It may have made Diana Ross leave earlier perhaps in 1967-68 because the unit was starting to break down because of the tensions. I can only ponder then if Motown would have supported a new group of Supremes then with Florence in the lead with Mary and somebody else. I don't think they would have.

No Mr. Gordy or Motown would have done that. He made it clear that all of his attention was focused on Diane.

[marv2]

Jean was a much more talented and skilled singer than Flo.

She was an extremely much better vocalist than Diana Ross. He should have put his money on her. It would have gone a lot further......

[sup_fan]

I disagree. They didn't have many hits after Florence left. Some would say that was due to HDH also leaving. Then that would mean that Diana Ross was not as essential to them getting hit after hit as her fans like to believe. They had nothing but flops with Diane on lead prior to HDH taking them on.

true - their chart activity was definitely not as strong as the DMF era. but they moved into bigger clubs, did the tv specials, commanded a higher concert fee, etc. It is too bad that more care wasn't placed on their vinyl output rather than the pabulum we got

HDH's departure really dealt the girls a blow. but even if they'd stayed, I'm not sure how they would have combated the explosion of other musical styles and forms that emerged in the later 60s. the harder-edged acid rock and San Fran sounds, the heavier r&b music, etc.

[marv2]

true - their chart activity was definitely not as strong as the DMF era. but they moved into bigger clubs, did the tv specials, commanded a higher concert fee, etc. It is too bad that more care wasn't placed on their vinyl output rather than the pabulum we got

HDH's departure really dealt the girls a blow. but even if they'd stayed, I'm not sure how they would have combated the explosion of other musical styles and forms that emerged in the later 60s. the harder-edged acid rock and San Fran sounds, the heavier r&b music, etc.

One way they could have sustained interest in them would been to switch up leads from time to time similar to what the O'Jays did in the 70s.

[luke]

Yes and apparently HDH was considering this per a previous post, especially if the fans tired of the usual. The Supremes was so successful because of Florence ,Mary, Diana and HDH.

[sup_fan]

problem is though that by 67 Berry wasn't interested in the Supremes outside of a launching pad for Diana. The idea of expanding the group's versatility and style to incorporate multi-leads would never have occurred during the DRATS era. Look at how under-utilized M and C were in TCB and especially in GIT? for Christ's sake - in TCB Cindy couldn't even sing her 1 line of Mrs Robinson without Diana joining in. Certainly wasn't because she sounded weak or bad. I have a bootlet of the Mrs Robinson segment with each girl singing separately and they sound great.

Once Jean joined, they did start sharing more but I do agree they should have done more with it and earlier in the MJC era. Of course that would have required them to find something for mary to sing other than that damned Can't Take My Eyes Off Of You lolol ;)

[BigAl]

HDH... even if they'd stayed, I'm not sure how they would have combated the explosion of other musical styles and forms that emerged in the later 60s. the harder-edged acid rock and San Fran sounds, the heavier r&b music, etc.
Correct, I'd say.
HDH's Hot Wax/Invictus stuff wasn't that different from their Motown stuff. With a few notable exceptions, I really felt most of it was inferior to their Hitsville output. Perhaps, had DRATS recorded, say, "Band of Gold," it might have charted, but I cannot imagine their doing any other post-HDH numbers with any success. That style was becoming dated and HDH were really just riding the tail-end of it before it ran its course. Likewise, the glitz-and-glamour shtick which all but defined DRATS was becoming hackneyed as well. Eventually, it all died not with a bang but a whimper.

[TheMotownManiac]

One way they could have sustained interest in them would been to switch up leads from time to time similar to what the O'Jays did in the 70s.
That would’ve been a good idea if they had group members that could handle leads but they didn’t. I think it’s been proven that mary wilson and Cindy Birdsong did not have voices that would sell records…… Certainly Marie had opportunities… No one in the industry has ever shown any interest in promoting mary wilson as a radio artist…… There’s a reason for that.

[Roberta75]

No Mr. Gordy or Motown would have done that. He made it clear that all of his attention was focused on Diane.

Diane Diane Diane Diane Diane Diane Diane Diane Diane Diane Diane
Diane Diane Diane Diane Diane Diane Diane Diane Diane Diane Diane
Diane Diane Diane Diane Diane Diane Diane Diane Diane Diane Diane
Diane Diane Diane Diane Diane Diane Diane Diane Diane Diane Diane
DIANE

Shes always on your mind. LOL

[TheMotownManiac]

I would have loved to hear Flo sing "Somethings You Never Get Used To". I wonder how Flo and Mary would have sounded on "Touch". I also thing Johnny Bristol would have done an excellent job producing Flo on lead and as a solo artist.

Out of the many combinations I have put through my mind, I admit I have never thought of Flo on something she never get used to… And I agree she might have done a wonderful job on it.

[TheMotownManiac]

I disagree. They didn't have many hits after Florence left. Some would say that was due to HDH also leaving. Then that would mean that Diana Ross was not as essential to them getting hit after hit as her fans like to believe. They had nothing but flops with Diane on lead prior to HDH taking them on.

Record sales and historians credit Diana With selling the Supremes. If you’re axiom about HDH is correct, then Levi and Martha were not essential to their groups getting hits either… As they suffered much worse And never saw the top 10 again after HDH left. DR&TS Sold tons more singles and albums then the other groups did after HDH left

[sup_fan]

back to the initial topic of the thread

had flo stayed in the group, I think we all agree she would have been lead after Diana left. to be honest, I don't think flo had the juice at the point to lead a group. as Mary has said, being a lead singer is different than singing lead on a song or two. it requires an onstage persona and presence. perhaps as they were prepping D to go solo, they would have started doing more with Flo to prepare her. but maybe not

had she taken over the group and with Mary still there, I wonder if they could have made a more abrupt image change. with two original members, maybe there would have been enough continuity with the group and they could have. Could they have gone into a more r&b concept and image without losing all of their pop base?

[midnightman]

I think Florence was a good singer but her problems would have continued to cause problems in the group. It may have made Diana Ross leave earlier perhaps in 1967-68 because the unit was starting to break down because of the tensions. I can only ponder then if Motown would have supported a new group of Supremes then with Florence in the lead with Mary and somebody else. I don't think they would have.

Yeah. And Florence's voice wasn't like what it was when she first joined Motown. Like if you check her solo material, I doubt she could've hit the notes Jean hit in Stoned Love. It was made for Jean. I just can't see Flo doing it. Flo had a rougher R&B quality that resembled Etta James more than a Motowner. I'm sorry. Flo was a good singer and definitely contributed to the legacy of the Supremes with her own inimitable style but let's not get ahead of ourselves. I'm sure she would've done a decent job though and had she lived past February 1976 and made her comeback and was asked to do it, she could've if she wanted to [[solo). Like in a disco version or whatever. But it would've been in a different pitch obviously.

[midnightman]

true - their chart activity was definitely not as strong as the DMF era. but they moved into bigger clubs, did the tv specials, commanded a higher concert fee, etc. It is too bad that more care wasn't placed on their vinyl output rather than the pabulum we got

HDH's departure really dealt the girls a blow. but even if they'd stayed, I'm not sure how they would have combated the explosion of other musical styles and forms that emerged in the later 60s. the harder-edged acid rock and San Fran sounds, the heavier r&b music, etc.

Once Aretha Franklin and Janis Joplin took over the airwaves, that was it for the Supremes as the leading ladies of pop and soul. They had become more of a living legend than the real actual group they used to resemble when it was just Diana, Mary and Flo.

[floyjoy678]

I don't think the group would have lasted much longer if Flo stayed. I feel they would have been giving their farewell show by early '68 if she did.

I do think Flo very much had the potential to be a star but she needed to take care of herself and she didn't. I really believe Motown had plans to market the group individually [[Back in my arms again, more hits cover) but Flo began missing shows as early as June '65. I remember reading an article of Mary and Diana doing a press conference in Atlantic City in the summer of '65 and they said Flo was visiting family. I think Gordy saw Flo's and, to a lesser extent, Mary's unreliability during this time and decided to focus primarily on Diana.

[midnightman]

back to the initial topic of the thread

had flo stayed in the group, I think we all agree she would have been lead after Diana left. to be honest, I don't think flo had the juice at the point to lead a group. as Mary has said, being a lead singer is different than singing lead on a song or two. it requires an onstage persona and presence. perhaps as they were prepping D to go solo, they would have started doing more with Flo to prepare her. but maybe not

had she taken over the group and with Mary still there, I wonder if they could have made a more abrupt image change. with two original members, maybe there would have been enough continuity with the group and they could have. Could they have gone into a more r&b concept and image without losing all of their pop base?

As a REAL Supremes fan, I'm just gonna keep it real: Florence NEVER wanted to be a "lead singer". Her thing was group unity. All for one and one for all. We have to remember the group was put together. It wasn't something they just decided to do. The group was formed because Milton Jenkins wanted a girl group equivalent to the Primes [[Eddie, Paul, Kel Osborne and Wiley Walker or whatever that last man's name was lol). Florence simply just wanted to be a singer and be famous like Jackie Wilson was. Jackie was a lot of Detroiters' goal [[Mary and Diana included) into being professional singers from Detroit because before Jackie, not too many Detroit musicians became big time. That's why when someone wanted to be a famous pop star, they were told "are you crazy? No one breaks out of Detroit as a singer! You might as well get a job in the auto plant in Ford."

All Florence wanted to do was just to be a singer and be famous, even if it was just in Detroit [[as Mary said in "Unsung", "our whole world was Detroit"). When they finally became the IT group of not only Motown or R&B but of the SIXTIES itself, that was too much for someone who grew up as a humble, down-to-earth kid who was one of fifteen growing up in various Detroit ghettos before settling in the Brewster Projects.

As Unsung showed, Florence was already struggling to deal with the aftermath of being raped at sixteen which led to the constant mood swingings as the group got bigger and bigger. At one point, when Unsung played Florence's interview with Peter Benjaminson, she said that the seeds of the Supremes splintering started early after they began to get famous forcing all three members to be in separate hotel rooms and said the only time they saw each other would be onstage, saying, "so it seems like we were splitting in that matter" and that was before it occurred to Motown that, "you know what, we should make Diana the star". But of course it took a while for that to foster since until 1967, it was all about the group and not a sole member.

Mary's thing was if Diana was gonna leave as she was rumored to in 1966, she and Flo could find another member and that member could've sung lead and then Flo and Mary could've argued for more vocal leads if they wanted to since usually when a label assigns a member to lead vocal status that it'll be harder for the other members to call for lead parts... if THAT was the case.

But IMHO, Flo was facing mental pressure and stress and not to mention the alcohol, I don't think she would've survived even if Diana had left first. Being in the Supremes had become toxic for her by 1966 and her unpredictable mood swings meant trouble for Berry, who didn't handle it right.

But so was Wanda Rogers, who also had substance issues. Difference between Flo and Wanda was Wanda was the lead vocalist of the Marvelettes. Flo wasn't the Supremes' lead singer so it was easier for Berry to wash his hands of a member he felt would not be good for the group's image and the Supremes were the queens of pop music and the nightclub circuit. Flo was crying out for help and no one, not even her band mates [[that includes Mary), didn't listen.

I think in the end, Florence just wanted to be with Diana and Mary forever and when that seemed like an impossibility, she lashed out and decided "forget it, I rather leave" and that's what happened.

So I don't know if she would've stayed long either even if Motown decided to make Diana a soloist in 1967.

[midnightman]

I don't think the group would have lasted much longer if Flo stayed. I feel they would have been giving their farewell show by early '68 if she did.

I do think Flo very much had the potential to be a star but she needed to take care of herself and she didn't. I really believe Motown had plans to market the group individually [[Back in my arms again, more hits cover) but Flo began missing shows as early as June '65. I remember reading an article of Mary and Diana doing a press conference in Atlantic City in the summer of '65 and they said Flo was visiting family. I think Gordy saw Flo's and, to a lesser extent, Mary's unreliability during this time and decided to focus primarily on Diana.

As evident by the More Hits cover, I think it was clear Motown had plans to have each member branch out. Florence's issues definitely played a factor into why those plans fizzled and they only focused on Diana because she basically just obeyed Berry while the others, Flo MAINLY, began arguing against doing it. As Unsung stated, Flo wanted to go home more than go out on the road.

[BayouMotownMan]

It's kinda humorous to speculate on all this stuff. Berry Gordy was a smart man and knew the gamble on Ross would pay off.

By 1966 it was obvious Flo would eventually leave or have to be replaced. Likewise for Jean Terrell, after the first year she gradually became miserable with the pressures and doing most of the work but Mary and Cindy getting more than she. Neither Flo nor Jean ever attempted to come back after leaving. Jean worked in the FLOs in the late 80s but their work load was significantly less than what the Supremes had been.

Berry Gordy shaped and molded Diane Ross. Together they created DIANA ROSS. He was relentless on her, often abusive. But she gave him results. No way would Flo or Jean tolerated this.

[aarondillon2011@gmail.com]

Personally I think things would have been a LOT better [[still not perfect) if Mary and Florence would have got a lead or 2 per album as well as live shows [[besides People and Can't Take My Eyes Off You). That alone may have kept Florence with the group though I bet there still may have been some issues.

[marv2]

Yes and apparently HDH was considering this per a previous post, especially if the fans tired of the usual. The Supremes was so successful because of Florence ,Mary, Diana and HDH.

I know the Holland Bros. worked with the Supremes again in the 70s and with Mary in the 2000s [[yeah I know the album is still unreleased), but haven't they ever worked with Diana Ross again?

[marv2]

problem is though that by 67 Berry wasn't interested in the Supremes outside of a launching pad for Diana. The idea of expanding the group's versatility and style to incorporate multi-leads would never have occurred during the DRATS era. Look at how under-utilized M and C were in TCB and especially in GIT? for Christ's sake - in TCB Cindy couldn't even sing her 1 line of Mrs Robinson without Diana joining in. Certainly wasn't because she sounded weak or bad. I have a bootlet of the Mrs Robinson segment with each girl singing separately and they sound great.

Once Jean joined, they did start sharing more but I do agree they should have done more with it and earlier in the MJC era. Of course that would have required them to find something for mary to sing other than that damned Can't Take My Eyes Off Of You lolol ;)

Yeah, I'll admit, I got tired of her singing that song "Can't Take My Eyes Off of You" LOL! Still it is a nice thought, to imagine if they had become a bit more diversified.

[marv2]

back to the initial topic of the thread

had flo stayed in the group, I think we all agree she would have been lead after Diana left. to be honest, I don't think flo had the juice at the point to lead a group. as Mary has said, being a lead singer is different than singing lead on a song or two. it requires an onstage persona and presence. perhaps as they were prepping D to go solo, they would have started doing more with Flo to prepare her. but maybe not

had she taken over the group and with Mary still there, I wonder if they could have made a more abrupt image change. with two original members, maybe there would have been enough continuity with the group and they could have. Could they have gone into a more r&b concept and image without losing all of their pop base?

I think they could have gone more R&B. By the late 60s, Aretha had proven that Soul/R&B was popular across the board. If Flo and Mr. Gordy had a better working relationship, it could have happened.

[marv2]

Once Aretha Franklin and Janis Joplin took over the airwaves, that was it for the Supremes as the leading ladies of pop and soul. They had become more of a living legend than the real actual group they used to resemble when it was just Diana, Mary and Flo.

That's true. People had begun to look at them as a show biz institution and we know what that means LOL! Supper clubs and Vegas. The Bob Hope Specials and hanging out with Sammy Davis Jr. and the like. Not what the younger set could really get into.

[marv2]

Personally I think things would have been a LOT better [[still not perfect) if Mary and Florence would have got a lead or 2 per album as well as live shows [[besides People and Can't Take My Eyes Off You). That alone may have kept Florence with the group though I bet there still may have been some issues.

The issues would have been, Diana did not like to share according to what I have read. Still that would have been great and made them more of a group again.

[marv2]

I don't think the group would have lasted much longer if Flo stayed. I feel they would have been giving their farewell show by early '68 if she did.

I do think Flo very much had the potential to be a star but she needed to take care of herself and she didn't. I really believe Motown had plans to market the group individually [[Back in my arms again, more hits cover) but Flo began missing shows as early as June '65. I remember reading an article of Mary and Diana doing a press conference in Atlantic City in the summer of '65 and they said Flo was visiting family. I think Gordy saw Flo's and, to a lesser extent, Mary's unreliability during this time and decided to focus primarily on Diana.

She, Flo was a young woman with a lot of talent ,ambition and dreams just like the other two. When she started to see that she was not going to get to live up to her full potential that is when she started acting out. She had no real power in the company, so she did the only things she knew how to do. Understand? She wanted it as much as anyone else, but she wasn't going to get the chance in her own group!

[sansradio]

I know the Holland Bros. worked with the Supremes again in the 70s and with Mary in the 2000s [[yeah I know the album is still unreleased), but haven't they ever worked with Diana Ross again?

Yes. “We Can Never Light...” was by the Hollands, IIRC.

[PeaceNHarmony]

Sad to say Florence's voice is over-rated. As a lead, with or without Supremes, I doubt Florence would have had much of a career.

[thanxal]

Sad to say Florence's voice is over-rated. As a lead, with or without Supremes, I doubt Florence would have had much of a career.
Totally disagree with you here. Compare Diana and Florence when they started. Flo was miles ahead. Had she had the attention, who knows where she could have gone.

[midnightman]

Her voice during the Motown years was incredible.

But the ABC recordings, clearly something was amiss. Especially considering the material and the voice she delivered, she didn't seem like she was into the songs ABC gave her. :/

But I don't think her voice stood out considering other stronger singers there like Gladys and Martha. Flo could've easily done a Wanda Rogers thing where she turned a pop song into something more earthy and sultry, which was Wanda's talent and seemed to be Flo's too. They both were able to be diverse like that when they were both in Motown.

[luke]

Look how far Diana Ross came. Flo then could have become the next Aretha/ Barbara/Bette Midler [[comedy).

[marv2]

Yes. “We Can Never Light...” was by the Hollands, IIRC.

Really, ok. Thanks.

[marv2]

Sad to say Florence's voice is over-rated. As a lead, with or without Supremes, I doubt Florence would have had much of a career.

I have to disagree. Flo was a SINGER! She could belt one out. I loved her voice. There was never anything written especially for her to sing other than her background harmony parts. She stood out even then!

[marv2]

Totally disagree with you here. Compare Diana and Florence when they started. Flo was miles ahead. Had she had the attention, who knows where she could have gone.

You can't get some people to understand that. The writers were not directed to write anything for Florence's voice. When she did get a tiny little chance, she tore it up like with the Christmas songs and Sam Cooke's "Ain't That Good News"!

[marv2]

Her voice during the Motown years was incredible.

But the ABC recordings, clearly something was amiss. Especially considering the material and the voice she delivered, she didn't seem like she was into the songs ABC gave her. :/

But I don't think her voice stood out considering other stronger singers there like Gladys and Martha. Flo could've easily done a Wanda Rogers thing where she turned a pop song into something more earthy and sultry, which was Wanda's talent and seemed to be Flo's too. They both were able to be diverse like that when they were both in Motown.

It also didn't help that she was 8 months pregnant during those ABC recording sessions. Coincidentally, Mary Wilson was in the advance stages of pregnancy when she recorded her solo album for Motown and you could tell from the gasps and heavy breathing on some of her songs.

[midnightman]

Yes. “We Can Never Light...” was by the Hollands, IIRC.

If the Holland brothers were working in the '80s [[I don't know if they were), Mary could've hooked up with them then instead of going to Motorcity.

[marybrewster]

Flo Ballard was a singer, but not lead singer material. She could have never, ever been successful as a replacement for Diana in the Supremes.

The fact is also that Flo was clumsy: look at any clip and she's rarely as tight as Diana or Mary. Some have it, some don't. That's just a reality: Flo was not a dancer. Even Mary has said Flo had a difficult time with choreography.

Flo would have also looked ridiculous in the costumes 1967-1970. Cindy brought a glamour to the group that wasn't there when Flo was a member.

What Flo should have done when she left the group was strike while the iron was hot: become a teacher, perhaps a vocal coach. A manager to young talent. Written an autobiography. Became a game show panalist. Retried and focused on being a Mom. Anything but that dreaded ABC release.

[Bluebrock]

That would’ve been a good idea if they had group members that could handle leads but they didn’t. I think it’s been proven that mary wilson and Cindy Birdsong did not have voices that would sell records…… Certainly Marie had opportunities… No one in the industry has ever shown any interest in promoting mary wilson as a radio artist…… There’s a reason for that.
Yes there is a reason for that. Mary Wilson's voice was never going to sell large amounts of records. Neither was Cindy's. They were outstanding backing vocalists, which in itself is not an easy thing to do, but as regards lead vocalists - forget it.
People can drone on forever about all these so called lost opportunities for Mary's solo recording career, but the truth of the matter is that no record company had sufficient confidence in her ability to sell records, therefore the deals failed to materialise. Her voice was far more suitable to singing torch songs in supper clubs. She was never going to find a large enough audience to become a "radio" voice.

[Bluebrock]

It also didn't help that she was 8 months pregnant during those ABC recording sessions. Coincidentally, Mary Wilson was in the advance stages of pregnancy when she recorded her solo album for Motown and you could tell from the gasps and heavy breathing on some of her songs.
Yes you can. People [[myself included) have criticised the poor quality of her vocals on that album , but we do have to take into account her pregnancy. It would have been better for all concerned had they waited six months to record the album. It would still have flopped because the material was generally of a sub standard quality, but at least Mary would have sounded a little less strained.

[marv2]

Flo Ballard was a singer, but not lead singer material. She could have never, ever been successful as a replacement for Diana in the Supremes.

The fact is also that Flo was clumsy: look at any clip and she's rarely as tight as Diana or Mary. Some have it, some don't. That's just a reality: Flo was not a dancer. Even Mary has said Flo had a difficult time with choreography.

Flo would have also looked ridiculous in the costumes 1967-1970. Cindy brought a glamour to the group that wasn't there when Flo was a member.

What Flo should have done when she left the group was strike while the iron was hot: become a teacher, perhaps a vocal coach. A manager to young talent. Written an autobiography. Became a game show panalist. Retried and focused on being a Mom. Anything but that dreaded ABC release.

I disagree. Florence Ballard was a lead singer and everyone that was at Motown at that time would agree with me. She was not groomed to be the lead singer of The Supremes once they hit, but she was definitely a lead singer and a good one. She did far more dancing as a background singer than Diane did as the lead. She also had a more powerful, melodic voice! Add to that, she had the physical attributes of a Hollywood starlet. She drew attention even in the background.

[BigAl]

I disagree. Florence Ballard was a lead singer and everyone that was at Motown at that time would agree with me. She was not groomed to be the lead singer of The Supremes once they hit, but she was definitely a lead singer and a good one. She did far more dancing as a background singer than Diane did as the lead. She also had a more powerful, melodic voice! Add to that, she had the physical attributes of a Hollywood starlet. She drew attention even in the background.

Flo had the pipes, as we know, but her recorded performances were uneven, mostly due to the material she was given. Numbers like "Buttered Popcorn," "Save Me a Star," and "Ain't That Good News" served her well, but [[in my opinion) her couple of Christmas numbers sounded forced and a bit shrill, and, except for her last notes in "People," she sounded rather unsure of herself there. Now, of course, she could have been coached just a little and given material better suited to her voice, but her voice and style weren't going to cross the group over, and that was Gordy's objective. I do understand that Diane definitely needed to sing the leads on the singles toward that objective. Her voice was exactly what was needed for Top Forty success. My main complaint was always that Florence and Mary were so regrettably under-utilized on album cuts and in live performance. To give them more leads in those areas would not have diminished Diane's visibility, or the group's and her later solo success, but this wasn't on her agenda, or on Gordy's either. Had Flo still been on board when Diane split, I suspect she still would not have been selected as lead and someone else would have been recruited. The stylistic change would have been too extreme for the general public to accept. By the time she was dismissed, she was a defeated woman and, probably, only professional intervention could have gotten her back on track, and apparently that just didn't happen. By the time she got a something of a second wind it was too little, too late.

[sup_fan]

I don't believe anyone on here is saying Flo [[or even Mary) was a BAD singer. All three of the girls were untrained when they arrived at Motown. None of them had formal training in technique, breath control and support, intonation, etc. Most their training consisted of school choir and then trial and error with the Primettes.

All three girls had potential but not necessarily in the same genre or areas. Diana was pop. Flo was soul and Mary was more jazzy. Training and coaching would certainly have helped Flo be more accurate in her recordings - her version of People is barely listenable as her intonation is for shit. Her phrasing and vowel placement in Silent Night and O Holy Night are also questionable. However her approach to Good News and Manhattan is really quite nice. So she had the potential. But she needed to be developed

Diana certainly received considerable opportunity to test and hone her singing. I'm sure we all agree her early tunes are whiny and very nasal. Frankly she's singing as a soprano but really should have been an alto or maybe sop 2. But if you listen to even her earliest songs, her phrasing is FAR superior to either F or M. how Diana handled the lyric was truly impressive, especially for a teenager. That's one of the elements Diana had - an incredible ability to convey the message of a song.

[PeaceNHarmony]

I don't believe anyone on here is saying Flo [[or even Mary) was a BAD singer. All three of the girls were untrained when they arrived at Motown. None of them had formal training in technique, breath control and support, intonation, etc. Most their training consisted of school choir and then trial and error with the Primettes.

All three girls had potential but not necessarily in the same genre or areas. Diana was pop. Flo was soul and Mary was more jazzy. Training and coaching would certainly have helped Flo be more accurate in her recordings - her version of People is barely listenable as her intonation is for shit. Her phrasing and vowel placement in Silent Night and O Holy Night are also questionable. However her approach to Good News and Manhattan is really quite nice. So she had the potential. But she needed to be developed

Diana certainly received considerable opportunity to test and hone her singing. I'm sure we all agree her early tunes are whiny and very nasal. Frankly she's singing as a soprano but really should have been an alto or maybe sop 2. But if you listen to even her earliest songs, her phrasing is FAR superior to either F or M. how Diana handled the lyric was truly impressive, especially for a teenager. That's one of the elements Diana had - an incredible ability to convey the message of a song.

And even if someone were to say that Florence was a 'bad' singer [[which I would certainly never say) it would be that person's rightful opinion. We don't all have to ascribe to every half-century old urban myth, particularly those that traffic in conspiracy and victimization. I agree completely with your assessment of the three singers.

[thanxal]

And even if someone were to say that Florence was a 'bad' singer [[which I would certainly never say) it would be that person's rightful opinion. We don't all have to ascribe to every half-century old urban myth, particularly those that traffic in conspiracy and victimization.

You are correct on the last bit. I've found the ignore feature to be my best friend on this site.

And I think Sup_fan is correct that Florence and Mary may have been better at different genres. I just don't agree that Flo would not have been a good lead. She had all the elements needed, but they weren't developed. I know many people think Diana just woke up into the role of lead singer, but there was A LOT of hard work, coaching, and development behind her rise. Every great singer had a great vocal coach at some point.

I do think Flo would have been better suited for the 70s soul sound shift and perhaps could have gone quite far, with or without the Supremes.

[dvus7]

It's kinda humorous to speculate on all this stuff. Berry Gordy was a smart man and knew the gamble on Ross would pay off.

By 1966 it was obvious Flo would eventually leave or have to be replaced. Likewise for Jean Terrell, after the first year she gradually became miserable with the pressures and doing most of the work but Mary and Cindy getting more than she. Neither Flo nor Jean ever attempted to come back after leaving. Jean worked in the FLOs in the late 80s but their work load was significantly less than what the Supremes had been.

Berry Gordy shaped and molded Diane Ross. Together they created DIANA ROSS. He was relentless on her, often abusive. But she gave him results. No way would Flo or Jean tolerated this.

Thank you.... Let's not forget about throwing the drink in BG's face...she was a thru piece!!!

[midnightman]

I don't believe anyone on here is saying Flo [[or even Mary) was a BAD singer. All three of the girls were untrained when they arrived at Motown. None of them had formal training in technique, breath control and support, intonation, etc. Most their training consisted of school choir and then trial and error with the Primettes.

All three girls had potential but not necessarily in the same genre or areas. Diana was pop. Flo was soul and Mary was more jazzy. Training and coaching would certainly have helped Flo be more accurate in her recordings - her version of People is barely listenable as her intonation is for shit. Her phrasing and vowel placement in Silent Night and O Holy Night are also questionable. However her approach to Good News and Manhattan is really quite nice. So she had the potential. But she needed to be developed

Diana certainly received considerable opportunity to test and hone her singing. I'm sure we all agree her early tunes are whiny and very nasal. Frankly she's singing as a soprano but really should have been an alto or maybe sop 2. But if you listen to even her earliest songs, her phrasing is FAR superior to either F or M. how Diana handled the lyric was truly impressive, especially for a teenager. That's one of the elements Diana had - an incredible ability to convey the message of a song.

One thing that stood out when Maxine Powell talked of the Motown acts she worked with was that it was Diana that was the "hardest-working" one of them all [[and that includes Mary and Flo). Like when I hear People, Flo sounds fine but then when Diana sings her little part, you can kinda see how the vocal training paid off for her. As Marvin Gaye later said, Diana could outdo you in anything [[or something to that effect; I know he praised her talent a lot in the Divided Soul book even as he admitted he was being ridiculous during the D&M sessions).

Flo and Mary had better voices but for some reason it never was utilized right. My guess is that most of the Motown acts who weren't called to do the leads didn't think it was necessary to do so. Maybe that's why F & M probably didn't get many leads because they weren't coached harder vocally. I have to wonder how vocal lessons were with the three of them. They definitely had the vocal harmony parts DOWN PAT and probably had the best three-part vocal harmonies of the girl groups prior to the ascent of the Pointer Sisters and the Emotions [[though I feel the Clark Sisters had the best vocal harmonies of any girl group in history; that said, they were gospel and there were five of them at one point versus just three for the Supremes). The Three Degrees couldn't match them [[IMHO they were Supremes wannabes).

I wonder why Milton Jenkins didn't vocally train them hard enough. Maxine said it best: the Supremes were all diamonds in the rough. So how come Diana learn to get better but the others stayed the way they were? I think if they had matched Diana in how to deliver a song, maybe... JUST MAYBE, Flo and Mary could've took over on lead when Diana left.

[midnightman]

Thank you.... Let's not forget about throwing the drink in BG's face...she was a thru piece!!!

HAHA I love that. She didn't take no mess... ugh, I just wish she was here. I think she would've had the same triumphant story Bettye LaVette had if she lived and we would be talking about her new blues record or whatever. RIP FLO!

[marv2]

One thing that stood out when Maxine Powell talked of the Motown acts she worked with was that it was Diana that was the "hardest-working" one of them all [[and that includes Mary and Flo). Like when I hear People, Flo sounds fine but then when Diana sings her little part, you can kinda see how the vocal training paid off for her. As Marvin Gaye later said, Diana could outdo you in anything [[or something to that effect; I know he praised her talent a lot in the Divided Soul book even as he admitted he was being ridiculous during the D&M sessions).

Flo and Mary had better voices but for some reason it never was utilized right. My guess is that most of the Motown acts who weren't called to do the leads didn't think it was necessary to do so. Maybe that's why F & M probably didn't get many leads because they weren't coached harder vocally. I have to wonder how vocal lessons were with the three of them. They definitely had the vocal harmony parts DOWN PAT and probably had the best three-part vocal harmonies of the girl groups prior to the ascent of the Pointer Sisters and the Emotions [[though I feel the Clark Sisters had the best vocal harmonies of any girl group in history; that said, they were gospel and there were five of them at one point versus just three for the Supremes). The Three Degrees couldn't match them [[IMHO they were Supremes wannabes).

I wonder why Milton Jenkins didn't vocally train them hard enough. Maxine said it best: the Supremes were all diamonds in the rough. So how come Diana learn to get better but the others stayed the way they were? I think if they had matched Diana in how to deliver a song, maybe... JUST MAYBE, Flo and Mary could've took over on lead when Diana left.

Milton was a hustler. He wasn't no vocal coach! LOL! I can hear him doubling over laughing at that.

[dvus7]

Milton was a hustler. He wasn't no vocal coach! LOL! I hear him doubling over laughing at that.

Did you know Milton Jenkins, too???LOL!!!

[marv2]

Did you know Milton Jenkins, too???LOL!!!

I did not KNOW Milton....someone real close to me and family did though.

[midnightman]

Did you know Milton Jenkins, too???LOL!!!

He knows the guy who created the Statue of Liberty. :)

[BayouMotownMan]

I know the Holland Bros. worked with the Supremes again in the 70s and with Mary in the 2000s [[yeah I know the album is still unreleased), but haven't they ever worked with Diana Ross again?

Yes, they did tracks on Ross in 1977 and 78 as I recall, only one, We Can Never Light That Old Flame Again was issued.

Also when HDH was inducted into the RR HOF, it was Ross who presented them, not Mary Wilson

[floyjoy678]

I think Flo's lead vocal on both versions of Makes No Difference Now and People, shows the potential she had as a lead singer. Had both her and Mary took all the extra time in practicing, vocal coaching, etc. like Diana did I have no doubt that they, especially Flo, would have had their potential bloom.

[blackguy69]

I think Flo's lead vocal on both versions of Makes No Difference Now and People, shows the potential she had as a lead singer. Had both her and Mary took all the extra time in practicing, vocal coaching, etc. like Diana did I have no doubt that they, especially Flo, would have had their potential bloom.that would be true in theory but since it wasn’t offered to them, they had to work with what they had

[marv2]

He knows the guy who created the Statue of Liberty. :)

Who would that be?

[Roberta75]

he knows the guy who created the statue of liberty. :)

lolololololololol

[jobeterob]

I thought he was the Statue of Liberty

[Philles/Motown Gary]

Yes, they did tracks on Ross in 1977 and 78 as I recall, only one, We Can Never Light That Old Flame Again was issued.

H-D-H also produced Diana's previously unreleased "Fire Don't Burn" which finally saw the light of day on the Expanded CD edition of "Diana" [[1980 Chic-produced album) Disc 2, Track 2.

[franjoy56]

I doubt that Stone Love Sold almost 2 million copies up the ladder to the roof sold over 800,000 how can Forever Came Today some things you never get used to the composer or no matter what sign you are be put up against those great records none of them made the top 20

[captainjames]

There is only one song I would have like to hear Flo sing and that is "Once In The Morning" from the dreaded Jimmy Webb album. I think she would given it a good run. Now as far as Flor returning....no ....nawda... Nope. There were several opportunities for Flo to return and either Flo, Mary or Motown said no or never considered.

[milven]

Flo Ballard was a singer, but not lead singer material. She could have never, ever been successful as a replacement for Diana in the Supremes.

The fact is also that Flo was clumsy: look at any clip and she's rarely as tight as Diana or Mary. Some have it, some don't. That's just a reality: Flo was not a dancer. Even Mary has said Flo had a difficult time with choreography.

Flo would have also looked ridiculous in the costumes 1967-1970. Cindy brought a glamour to the group that wasn't there when Flo was a member.

What Flo should have done when she left the group was strike while the iron was hot: become a teacher, perhaps a vocal coach. A manager to young talent. Written an autobiography. Became a game show panalist. Retried and focused on being a Mom. Anything but that dreaded ABC release.

I don't think either Mary or Flo could have replaced Diana. Mary admitted that she did not have the confidence, and neither Mary or Flo had the ambition and drive that Diana had. Add to that Flo's troubles , which today would be easy to diagnose and correct with medication.

Anyhow, I think that Jean was the perfect choice for the Supremes. They continued to give us some great music and performances.

I'm a little late, but I hope you enjoyed your special day today. Have a Happy

[midnightman]

Lol yeah.

Flo was totally against joining the Supremes even after Diana left. She wanted to move on.

That's what people don't get. Flo was TIRED of them. Not of the history they made, or their [[splintered) bond, or that, just the business. Flo wanted nothing to do with returning to the past. She was a forward thinking person and before her death, she had definitely gained her confidence back, it sounds.

[TheMotownManiac]

She was an extremely much better vocalist than Diana Ross. He should have put his money on her. It would have gone a lot further......
He tried to, but she resisted doing things the way he wanted. The company was still behind that group but they didn’t pay off. A&M tried Jean also with a similar result. She wasn’t star material and the industry knew it. She could sing, but there are millions of great singers wowing churches and theaters across North America - that doesn’t make them stars. The public decides who is a star when presented with each new comer.

[midnightman]

I mean we see what happens sometimes when labels sign artists who have big powerful voices. Not everyone can blow up like an Aretha or Tina or Whitney or even Gladys and Patti. The Flos, Brenda Holloways, Jennifer Hollidays and such were never gonna be as big as their counterparts because either their labels didn't care much for them or it was wasted potential or a bit of both.

Also it helps if you have a real good team behind you. FLO JUST DID NOT HAVE THAT.

[TheMotownManiac]

back to the initial topic of the thread

had flo stayed in the group, I think we all agree she would have been lead after Diana left. to be honest, I don't think flo had the juice at the point to lead a group. as Mary has said, being a lead singer is different than singing lead on a song or two. it requires an onstage persona and presence. perhaps as they were prepping D to go solo, they would have started doing more with Flo to prepare her. but maybe not

had she taken over the group and with Mary still there, I wonder if they could have made a more abrupt image change. with two original members, maybe there would have been enough continuity with the group and they could have. Could they have gone into a more r&b concept and image without losing all of their pop base?

i do not think Flo would have been the lead if she stayed. Motown would still want an articulate, classy, versatile pop songstress to appeal to their fans - and the club audiences that gave them months and months or work each year. Flo was too ghetto to lead the group, but, she easily could have played a bigger role onstage with funny patter and a rollicking tune or two....if she and Gordy got along.

No way was BG going to have the leader of his flagship group Addressing crowds at The Waldorf with grammar like, “I had me a few drinks”..... I loved Flo to death, but let’s be real here. She never graduated and it showed. Gordy had grammar beaten into the J5 before they were allowed to speak to anyone outside the company.

Flo had had a big voice and amazing stage presence - in the bg- We don’t know how’d she behave as the lead - an entirely different ballgame.

[franjoy56]

This is very interesting and as much as i loved hearing flo on lead. Long gone lover aint that good news and rocking the bg on baby love and come see about me in particular. I have to agree with motownmaniac. Flo needed people behind her like diana had and lets face it diana had charisma as smokey said.

[marv2]

I doubt that Stone Love Sold almost 2 million copies up the ladder to the roof sold over 800,000 how can Forever Came Today some things you never get used to the composer or no matter what sign you are be put up against those great records none of them made the top 20

Oh those were great records. They brought the Supremes back to life with the public , especially the young record buyers.

[marv2]

This is very interesting and as much as i loved hearing flo on lead. Long gone lover aint that good news and rocking the bg on baby love and come see about me in particular. I have to agree with motownmaniac. Flo needed people behind her like diana had and lets face it diana had charisma as smokey said.

Don't forget on Marvin Gaye's "Can I Get A Witness" I hear Flo above all the rest.

[Circa 1824]

Florence could hit the notes, but the singing quality and phrasing was quite amateurish.

[TheMotownManiac]

Yes you can. People [[myself included) have criticised the poor quality of her vocals on that album , but we do have to take into account her pregnancy. It would have been better for all concerned had they waited six months to record the album. It would still have flopped because the material was generally of a sub standard quality, but at least Mary would have sounded a little less strained.

i’m sorry, but I have NO patience for Flo or Mary recording their debut albums while compromised by pregnancy. It was idiotic of Flo to get pregnant when she did, and stoooopid of both of them to not be at their best at the most important sessions of their careers. I loved Flo to death but she didn’t have a lick of sense when it came to her career. Everything she did was wrong and her album makes me cringe. Flo couldn’t take care of herself before she became a mother, what Maricopa supposed to take place after she gave birth to twins that was going to allow her to become a mother of twins and launch a career?????? The same stupidity that signed that awful contract with her attorney separating her from Motown. She was stupid, but to this very day I still watch her videos, Cherish the memories I have of seeing her alive,and love her very very very very much.

I can’t believe people are speculating that flow or Mary could’ve led the Supremes after diana ross. They couldn’t have because the berry Gordy would never have allowed it. They didn’t have the chops and everyone at Motown knew it. No one at the company had any interest in promoting Mary as a solo artist… Just like every other record company: no interest whatsoever. Why people blame Motown I don’t know..... i’m proud of Mary now for the career that she has and for embracing what she does so very well. I do not think that Flo wood ever been able to have the career that Mary has…… Mary is smart Mary is a survivor Mary is cunning. Flo had a big heart and a big voice and absolutely no common sense whatsoever when it came to a career.

[TheMotownManiac]

Don't forget on Marvin Gaye's "Can I Get A Witness" I hear Flo above all the rest.
So she’s loud. So what?

[midnightman]

What's with this singing loud business?

You know who else sang real loud in the back on a Marvin Gaye recording?

Martha Reeves of Martha & The Vandellas.

So we were saying?

How did Martha get to be a star while Flo had to be a star but singing in the background?

I mean, I guess Martha and Wanda of the Marvelettes actually had more patience than Florence Ballard to make something out of their careers that they were able to live their dreams being stars while Flo was relegated to the backgrounds.

Maybe it's because they had "it" factors and Flo...didn't?

[TheMotownManiac]

I don't believe anyone on here is saying Flo [[or even Mary) was a BAD singer. All three of the girls were untrained when they arrived at Motown. None of them had formal training in technique, breath control and support, intonation, etc. Most their training consisted of school choir and then trial and error with the Primettes.

All three girls had potential but not necessarily in the same genre or areas. Diana was pop. Flo was soul and Mary was more jazzy. Training and coaching would certainly have helped Flo be more accurate in her recordings - her version of People is barely listenable as her intonation is for shit. Her phrasing and vowel placement in Silent Night and O Holy Night are also questionable. However her approach to Good News and Manhattan is really quite nice. So she had the potential. But she needed to be developed

Diana certainly received considerable opportunity to test and hone her singing. I'm sure we all agree her early tunes are whiny and very nasal. Frankly she's singing as a soprano but really should have been an alto or maybe sop 2. But if you listen to even her earliest songs, her phrasing is FAR superior to either F or M. how Diana handled the lyric was truly impressive, especially for a teenager. That's one of the elements Diana had - an incredible ability to convey the message of a song.

i love your assessment of Diana’s early work - the sound is whiny and nasal, but her phrasing is amazing - listening to meet the Supremes and hearing her handle several styles with terrific understanding of the beat, lyric and writers intent is a marvelous natural talent she had and still does. Flo plugged into Good News well, but I never felt on one thing she sang that she knew what the lyric meant. I do think Flo was a bad vocalist and I do not believe that can be taught. Mary adapted but she always had promise from their first single.

[jim aka jtigre99]

I always felt that Diana had the most distinctive voice and that Mary also had a distinctive voice, as well. Florence certainly sang well but even in some recordings her pitch and phrasing are not on par with Diana and Mary. I always felt when Mary hired Scherrie she found someone who had the strength of Florence, which Mary always admired, but also stage presence and the ability to sing a song and sell it. That said, there was no one in the Supremes who wasn't a great singer. I always felt that each of them could have had careers singing or acting apart from the Supremes which could have been tied to their own individual strengths. Unfortunately, being tied to the group has some preconceived notions on what they would sound like as a soloist. I love all of the former Supremes.

[midnightman]

That's true, Jim... each Supreme did bring something special.

[Motown Eddie]

Her voice during the Motown years was incredible.

But the ABC recordings, clearly something was amiss. Especially considering the material and the voice she delivered, she didn't seem like she was into the songs ABC gave her. :/

But I don't think her voice stood out considering other stronger singers there like Gladys and Martha. Flo could've easily done a Wanda Rogers thing where she turned a pop song into something more earthy and sultry, which was Wanda's talent and seemed to be Flo's too. They both were able to be diverse like that when they were both in Motown.

I suggest that when Flo Ballard left The Supremes & Motown for ABC, she did not get the top-notch songs [[except for 'Love Ain't Love' & 'Forever Faithfull') nor a sympathetic producer that could consistently tap into her talents as a singer. She also did not get much of a chance since she was dropped by ABC Records after her first two singles for them flopped.

And while I would've loved to hear Flo singing lead vocals on songs like 'Stoned Love', I feel that there's no way that BG would've made her the lead singer of The Supremes [[or let her sing lead on any of the singles) after the friction between them during the group's peak years.

[midnightman]

I suggest that when Flo Ballard left The Supremes & Motown for ABC, she did not get the top-notch songs [[except for 'Love Ain't Love' & 'Forever Faithfull') nor a sympathetic producer that could consistently tap into her talents as a singer. She also did not get much of a chance since she was dropped by ABC Records after her first two singles for them flopped.

And while I would've loved to hear Flo singing lead vocals on songs like 'Stoned Love', I feel that there's no way that BG would've made her the lead singer of The Supremes [[or let her sing lead on any of the singles) after the friction between them during the group's peak years.


Right. It was NEVER gonna happen...

[marv2]

What's with this singing loud business?

You know who else sang real loud in the back on a Marvin Gaye recording?

Martha Reeves of Martha & The Vandellas.

So we were saying?

How did Martha get to be a star while Flo had to be a star but singing in the background?

I mean, I guess Martha and Wanda of the Marvelettes actually had more patience than Florence Ballard to make something out of their careers that they were able to live their dreams being stars while Flo was relegated to the backgrounds.

Maybe it's because they had "it" factors and Flo...didn't?

Are you kidding me? You must be kidding me? Florence Ballard was the founder of the most successful female vocal group in the history of the World. She, they were some the biggest stars on the planet in the sixties. Why try to downplay that like it was some trivia accomplishment?
As much as I love Martha Reeves and I love the Marvelettes........none of them reached the heights that Florence Ballard did with the Supremes. People are still talking about her after she's left this World over 40 years ago. It is also true that there are people out there that liked her much more than Diana Ross. All three of the original members of the Supremes had the "IT"factor, but not all three were given the opportunity for solo success. Why is that fact so hard for you and some others to comprehend? I know you cannot be this dumb. I believe you just like to keep shit going even if it means slamming the late, great Florence Ballard. People are still going to hate, dislike or not even care about Diane. I mention her because I know what the motivation is behind you guys always downgrading every Motown artist other than Diana Ross. If she was so great she would have gotten a hit in the last 35 years. It's gotten tired and it's been stupid since day one!

[luke]

Well said Marv. Even Miss Ross has stated “Florence had a beautiful voice.” Florence’s charisma helped propel them to the top, much less her voice which hit those glorious notes!

[floyjoy678]

Flo and Mary definitely had charisma and phenomenal stage presence but they lost it along the way, Mary much earlier than Flo did. In those TV appearances from '64-65 [[Shindig, Hullabaloo, Ready Steady Go), I'd say Flo had a great stage presence and a confidence about her. But then the Copa happened and that's when it seems she started to slowly losing it and just began going through the motions.

[midnightman]

Flo and Mary definitely had charisma and phenomenal stage presence but they lost it along the way, Mary much earlier than Flo did. In those TV appearances from '64-65 [[Shindig, Hullabaloo, Ready Steady Go), I'd say Flo had a great stage presence and a confidence about her. But then the Copa happened and that's when it seems she started to slowly losing it and just began going through the motions.

Yeah, as talked about, when Flo was on TV, you can definitely see her shine onstage. You can easily see why her charm helped to make the Supremes' live show great in those early hit making years.

Think by the Copa, Flo got worn out by the schedule and also, her demons probably came at her at once and that made being professional hard to do for her. Ugh, so tragic. :/

[TheMotownManiac]

There seems to be a thought among a few members that all anyone needs is grooming and they as well could lead the USA’S biggest group, become a solo super star or conquer any area of show business they desire.
“If only Diane and Berry would have........”
Well, Diana had very little to say about the show content at all. Certainly not who got leads. I’ve read several places that it took an act of Congress to get Mary her solo spot[[s) in the show and that only happened at the insistence of Gil and Diana because she needed to rest her voice. She may have been a spotlight hog, I don’t know. But she wouldn’t have given her People spot to Mary if she was against it. And you notice, in Mary’s book, when she mentioned Flo losing People at The Copa, she led readers to believe it was out of the act period. Not just temporary and, surprise, surprise - not that SHE would be singing a solo in it. If folks wonder why Diana wants nothing to do with her, I’m sure this is just one of dozens of reasons. It’s why I take her books with a grain of salt. Mary is a fun and very kind person, but her agenda with Diana is issue laden.

I believe Berry kept them out if the spotlight because he saw no value in it and nothing more - not hidden, jealousy ravaged agendas. He simply didn’t care for their voices. Neither would ever lead the group while he was running things. Motown chose to cancel shows that let Mary lead in the 70s - yet let Lynda lead on her first show with no rehearsal- and Diana was long gone by then...... this was not some evil, mean spirited decision to ruin lives. It was business - pure and simple. Had either woman hone on to another label and been big hits, i’d Be dead wrong. But, there was no interest in developing either. Maybe Berry, Motown and the industry knew something we didn’t?

[TheMotownManiac]

Are you kidding me? You must be kidding me? Florence Ballard was the founder of the most successful female vocal group in the history of the World. She, they were some the biggest stars on the planet in the sixties. Why try to downplay that like it was some trivia accomplishment?
As much as I love Martha Reeves and I love the Marvelettes........none of them reached the heights that Florence Ballard did with the Supremes. People are still talking about her after she's left this World over 40 years ago. It is also true that there are people out there that liked her much more than Diana Ross. All three of the original members of the Supremes had the "IT"factor, but not all three were given the opportunity for solo success. Why is that fact so hard for you and some others to comprehend? I know you cannot be this dumb. I believe you just like to keep shit going even if it means slamming the late, great Florence Ballard. People are still going to hate, dislike or not even care about Diane. I mention her because I know what the motivation is behind you guys always downgrading every Motown artist other than Diana Ross. If she was so great she would have gotten a hit in the last 35 years. It's gotten tired and it's been stupid since day one!
YOU are getting tired. No one is downgrading any Motown artist here. No one is downgrading Tammi, Jean, Brenda, Martha, Gladys1, Gladys2, Wanda, Syreeta, Mary, Lynda or Mable John. Stop making stuff up. No one is saying Flo had a bad voice. We are saying she was a poor vocal-IST. look it up. I think everyone here has stated how popular she was and a very great visual aid to the group. You are making this into a “.......VS Diana thing” and it’s not. You don’t like Ross, that’s fine. Millions do. All three did not have The it factor because Mary’s voice is not commercial at all and Flo was not a pop singer. That was The it Berry wanted and sold to humongous success. Berry spent a fortune on Chris Clark and couldn’t launch her. Mary and Flo had the exact same chance Diana did in 1960 - one was chosen. That WAS their chance. They were featured in their shows and any label could have been knocked out by their ability and lured them away like Mary Wells. They had their chances but no one believed in them. Geez, if only I had been developed, I could have been the next Tom Jones or Elton John - instead I got a degree at Souther Illinois University. It’s just not fair! No one saw it in me and we all should be given equal chances even if no one wants to invest time and money in us.

In Your way way of thinking: Kathy Dalton could be Janis Joplin, Edye Gorme could be Babs, Deanna Durban could Judy Garland........all they needed was the same chance.

[vgalindo]

YOU are getting tired. No one is downgrading any Motown artist here. No one is downgrading Tammi, Jean, Brenda, Martha, Gladys1, Gladys2, Wanda, Syreeta, Mary, Lynda or Mable John. Stop making stuff up. No one is saying Flo had a bad voice. We are saying she was a poor vocal-IST. look it up. I think everyone here has stated how popular she was and a very great visual aid to the group. You are making this into a “.......VS Diana thing” and it’s not. You don’t like Ross, that’s fine. Millions do. All three did not have The it factor because Mary’s voice is not commercial at all and Flo was not a pop singer. That was The it Berry wanted and sold to humongous success. Berry spent a fortune on Chris Clark and couldn’t launch her. Mary and Flo had the exact same chance Diana did in 1960 - one was chosen. That WAS their chance. They were featured in their shows and any label could have been knocked out by their ability and lured them away like Mary Wells. They had their chances but no one believed in them. Geez, if only I had been developed, I could have been the next Tom Jones or Elton John - instead I got a degree at Souther Illinois University. It’s just not fair! No one saw it in me and we all should be given equal chances even if no one wants to invest time and money in us.

In Your way way of thinking: Kathy Dalton could be Janis Joplin, Edye Gorme could be Babs, Deanna Durban could Judy Garland........all they needed was the same chance.
Thank you MotownManiac. I agree 💯💯

[TheMotownManiac]

Well said Marv. Even Miss Ross has stated “Florence had a beautiful voice.” Florence’s charisma helped propel them to the top, much less her voice which hit those glorious notes!
This is the last great Flo appearance - she’s adorable! Nov ‘66

https://youtu.be/hCcUq03mtxU

she didn’t need to sing lead - she brought so much to the group just BEING!

[midnightman]

Flo had flair and style. That's why she was important to the Supremes. She was an all around talent. Period. I mean if Flo didn't have anything, why would she have been in the Primettes? Same with Mary and Diana. This is why if you're living in a glasshouse, don't throw stones. Don't do that. We all said Flo had a really good voice but it wasn't good enough for any leads. Or as a soloist. And we said if she had more vocal training, she would've been better than she was. THAT'S IT. Some folks just look at "Flo" and "bad" and think it's hating. Sad.

[midnightman]

@MotownManiac, and Mary taking over for People is NOW well documented. She's seen singing it during their Asia tour and at the Roostertail Lounge that same year. If Diana was hogging the spotlight that much, you'd think she be ranting that neither Flo or Mary should lead. Diana was being dragged left and right to the studios singing lead and worked to death so much she suffered from anorexia nervosa due to her being picked as the lead singer, meaning even if she thought Mary or Flo could sing lead on some songs [[heck, during the making of their make-or-break record, Where Did Our Love Go, Diana didn't even wanna sing WDOLG and got into a cursing, scolding argument with HDH over it and probably said "Mary should sing this, I can't sing this!"). I mean, we never got to hear her side of the story! Everyone else either talks about her or talk about the other members. The expose that "People" was never a DR song after the Copa in '66, makes you wonder what other stories are told that turn out to be something someone from Radar Online or the National Enquirer can claim happen.

All to defame one of the most successful black entertainers in history all because Florence didn't get more leads when it wasn't called for her to get them because everything was in Diana Ross' lap and not Florence's.

[honest man]

Florence Ballard And Mary Wilson where excellent background singers to a iconic lead singer Diana Ross,nothing more,nothing less,NOW GET BACK TO YOUR MICROPHONES,

[BigAl]

To my thinking, the act's incredible success was truly a convergence of talents: right time, right place, right players. It would be interesting to conjecture how things might have played out had Betty or Barbara remained with the group, but I digress. Had there been no Gordy with faith and foresight, had there been no HDH, had there been no Maxine Powell, who knows what might have happened? Had there been no Supremes it's possible there might have been no Diana Ross. Although she had a thin voice, she had the astounding drive and a mentor/ally in Gordy, with superior vocal support from Flo and Mary, and, possibly more than anything else, material and production from HDH. As for Flo and Mary, it's probable that neither possessed the indefatigable drive to rise to the very top, so they needed Diane and she needed them. Had she begun as a solo she might not have taken flight. Eventually her ambition outgrew the group, which happens all the time with groups. Had JMC burst upon the scene, as a professionally assembled group rather than one which grew more organically and had established name recognition and a following, even their material might not have done as well as it did. No one operates in a vacuum.

[midnightman]

I'm sure to this day Diana thanks the Supremes for helping her be who she became. In fact, I think she HAS said that dozens of times. It's like when Tina Turner acknowledges Ike Turner's influence, yet people trash her because she became more successful than him after she left him following their final violent fight. Or when MJ always said if it wasn't for his brothers and Joe, he wouldn't have been able to do what he did later on. People who really spite someone who became that iconic think they would just simply forget where they came from. No they didn't. Far from it.

[captainjames]

Thank you MotownManiac. I agree 💯💯

Ditto
I am glad someone finally said it. The "People" crap was just a lie.

[blackguy69]

Actually it sounds to me that some people on here are try hard to prove that Diana didn’t hog the spotlight pointing out that Flo and Mary[[taking over the last verse from Diana)sang people in late 66. Now I’m not saying that Diana did but out of the songs that the group sang and Diana lead on all of them and the one that she didn’t, the other 2 had to share, it doesn’t exactly show Diana willing to give up the spotlight.

[arr&bee]

Uhh oh,hide all breakables,get those small kids and pets outta here..there's an earthquake comin!!

[khansperac]

Actually it sounds to me that some people on here are try hard to prove that Diana didn’t hog the spotlight pointing out that Flo and Mary[[taking over the last verse from Diana)sang people in late 66. Now I’m not saying that Diana did but out of the songs that the group sang and Diana lead on all of them and the one that she didn’t, the other 2 had to share, it doesn’t exactly show Diana willing to give up the spotlight.

It sounds to me that some members are simply pointing out the lie. Its not hard to prove at all once you see the video- the song was still in the act, and with Mary singing lead.

[blackguy69]

I’ve seen it. My impression was it switched up. Sometimes it was Diana, sometimes it was Mary. One thing is for sure, by the Copa show in 67 it wasn’t in the act

[midnightman]

Actually it sounds to me that some people on here are try hard to prove that Diana didn’t hog the spotlight pointing out that Flo and Mary[[taking over the last verse from Diana)sang people in late 66. Now I’m not saying that Diana did but out of the songs that the group sang and Diana lead on all of them and the one that she didn’t, the other 2 had to share, it doesn’t exactly show Diana willing to give up the spotlight.

Didn't Mary have another solo in the song? No one's arguing that Diana was a hogger but I don't think at that point she had control over who sang what. Ask Berry Gordy and the HDH team [[and those who worked with the Supremes who are still among the living) why Mary and Flo didn't have more leads in the studio and on stage. Shouldn't be hard to do, right? It's really not Diana's to answer. I mean, yeah, Diana wasn't gonna give up the spotlight, it was something she had wanted from the age of 12 so of course. In fact, I think some here knew that Diana was more determined. We all can agree with that, right?

Still don't think Flo and Mary were that confident vocally and like I said, Flo never wanted to be a lead singer anyway, she just wanted to be in the Supremes forever no matter what it took and it just wasn't gonna work with because their ambitions were not the same: Mary and Flo probably want things to remain the same [[and FLO more so than Mary because Mary was going along with the Motown machine more), but Diana had visions that Flo simply didn't share. We're just dealing with facts.

So, to clarify, yeah, we know where Diana was at but it almost came at a price for her as much as it came a price for Flo hoping the group unity would always be there. As her cousin on Unsung said, "things had changed and she hadn't changed".

[blackguy69]

You’re thinking of enjoy yourself from the first Copa show.

[rod_rick]

Ditto
I am glad someone finally said it. The "People" crap was just a lie.

Yep a lie to sell books. Remember Mary was told they needed more dirt. I believe it was easier to say that People was snatched from Flo than to tell the Berry was Rhonda's dad.

As far as singing lead for Flo and Mary had they gotten the training and developed as Diana they would had made wonderful lead vocalist. Remember Martha Reeves was older and singing in clubs. HDH took Diana out of the vocal rafters and developed what we now know as her signature sound and style. To Mary's credit she did very well on her early leads i.e. Pretty Baby, Baby Don't Go, and The Tears. Someone thought thought he had something way back then.

[Jimi LaLumia]

Diana was a 'hogger'? lol..what did that make Gladys Knight, Levi Stubbs, Martha Reeves, Smokey Robinson etc? I rreally think there are some people here who were bullied and think of themselves as Flo or Mary.. how about thinking how difficult it was to become Diana Ross, a black female [[double whammy) in the 1960's, rising to such incredible heights in the hateful racist 1960's, and dragging the rest of Motown along with her..get over yourselves, people...lol

[marv2]

Actually it sounds to me that some people on here are try hard to prove that Diana didn’t hog the spotlight pointing out that Flo and Mary[[taking over the last verse from Diana)sang people in late 66. Now I’m not saying that Diana did but out of the songs that the group sang and Diana lead on all of them and the one that she didn’t, the other 2 had to share, it doesn’t exactly show Diana willing to give up the spotlight.

It is a well known fact.....she did not like to share!

[Jimi LaLumia]

and Gladys, Levi, Martha, Smokey etc? were they 'hoggers'?..for the crime of being what's called a 'lead singer'?...lol..

[arr&bee]

In the case of-gladys-smokey-martha.it was already established,but with the supremes in the beginning they thought of themselves as co-leads...at least two of em did,hehe!

[vgalindo]

and Gladys, Levi, Martha, Smokey etc? were they 'hoggers'?..for the crime of being what's called a 'lead singer'?...lol..
Thank you Jimi LaLumia. Others get a pass or an excuse for why they sang all the leads! But oh no not Diana Ross she didn't like to share. But Gladys and Martha loved to share leads!!! LOL

[Jimi LaLumia]

then why, in the beginning, on the all flops "Meet The Supremes' album was Ross already the dominant voice, the person on the mic talking/hosting at all those early no hits Supremes shows when no one knew how things would turn out for the girls? why did Flo and Mary allow that when there was no success and they allowed everything to rest on the shoulders of DR with no objections, same as the WDOLG album before they knew what was going to happen? give it a rest kids..

[blackguy69]

Marv you should not comment. But to answer the question at hand that has been asked too many times to count, as arr&bee has stated, the Supremes was set up as a group not a lead and backups. And since none of us were there,how do we know Flo or Mary didn’t protest to sing more leads. If they were rotating leads prior to them getting there and all three had recorded leads early on, do you think they would just be quiet.

[marv2]

In the case of-gladys-smokey-martha.it was already established,but with the supremes in the beginning they thought of themselves as co-leads...at least two of em did,hehe!

BANG! You get it!

[marv2]

Marv you should not comment. But to answer the question at hand that has been asked too many times to count, as arr&bee has stated, the Supremes was set up as a group not a lead and backups. And since none of us were there,how do we know Flo or Mary didn’t protest to sing more leads. If they were rotating leads prior to them getting there and all three had recorded leads early on, do you think they would just be quiet.

I should not comment? I've been a member of this forum probably longer than anyone else on this thread. I have also contributed to this forum in more ways than I can count. I'll comment if I want to!

[marv2]

Marv you should not comment. But to answer the question at hand that has been asked too many times to count, as arr&bee has stated, the Supremes was set up as a group not a lead and backups. And since none of us were there,how do we know Flo or Mary didn’t protest to sing more leads. If they were rotating leads prior to them getting there and all three had recorded leads early on, do you think they would just be quiet.

They did protest. They first tried to discuss it with Diane and then later on Mary would "discuss it" with Mr. Gordy. They did not want to mess up any "formula", but they did want to be able to sing lead on some of the album tracks and more in concert.

[Jimi LaLumia]

I'm sure that if Mary [[or Flo) had protested to sing more leads, we would have read about it in that BOOK!..you know, the 'exile' book...

[blackguy69]

Ok we’ve gotten way off topic and it’s starting to be the same bull we argue about constantly. And since none of us was there to confirm or deny the events at hand. All we have is our opinions.

[arr&bee]

Let me step in if i may,look berry gordy should get all the credit[or the blame if you wish]for the supremes success,if he had not heard something in the[nasally sound]of the skinny one with the big eyes we would'nt be here discussing it,or fighting over it or whatever it is that happens here,i'm out!!

[vgalindo]

BANG! You get it!

What does that have to do with it? Same old excuses. If you look at it that way then I guess you can say Gladys-Smokey-Martha were more selfish than Diana if they were like from the very beginning. At least Diana shared in the beginning. Why didn't Martha, Smokey, and Gladys share in the beginning? Because of their eggos and they were the stars! Diana Ross isn't the only superstar who didn't want the spotlight!

[captainjames]

What does that have to do with it? Same old excuses. If you look at it that way then I guess you can say Gladys-Smokey-Martha were more selfish than Diana if they were like from the very beginning. At least Diana shared in the beginning. Why didn't Martha, Smokey, and Gladys share in the beginning? Because of their eggos and they were the stars! Diana Ross isn't the only superstar who didn't want the spotlight!

Wasn't the Pips just the Pips before they were Gladys Knight and The Pips and the same for the Miracles ?

[vgalindo]

Wasn't the Pips just the Pips before they were Gladys Knight and The Pips and the same for the Miracles ?

Yes they were. Also Gladys and Smokey both left their groups and didn't get any flack for it. SMDH

[blackguy69]

If the supremes were marketed like the vandellas or the miracles or the four tops or Gladys and the pips then the argument would change. But since the girls were marketed as individuals, it leads us to the discussion at hand.

[blackguy69]

But it was always Gladys and the pips from day one. even when she left and came back it went right back to Gladys and the pips. and it

[midnightman]

Wasn't the Pips just the Pips before they were Gladys Knight and The Pips and the same for the Miracles ?

They were from 1952 until 1961. Like Berry did for the Supremes, Bobby Robinson suggested the Pips add Gladys' name on top of theirs. When Gladys left following her marriage to Jimmy Newman, the other Pips toured on their own as just the Pips until Gladys reunited with them in 1964.

The Miracles actually had their moniker changed first. They were still "The Miracles" when they began to hit the pop mainstream with the Going to a Go-Go album and released the singles but the album cover listed them as Smokey Robinson and The Miracles.

A good two years before Motown decided to add Diana's name in front of the Supremes [[it was first as The Supremes WITH Diana Ross before it switched to Diana Ross & The Supremes the night Flo stuck her stomach out while drunk during one of the performances following her birthday).

Originally the Vandellas were gonna be just that until Berry or someone suggested Martha's first name should be up there. I also think Phil Spector added Ronnie Spector's first name in front of the Ronettes after Be My Baby became popular.

[midnightman]

But it was always Gladys and the pips from day one. even when she left and came back it went right back to Gladys and the pips. and it

No it wasn't.

When the Pips made their recording debut on Brunswick in 1957, they went as simply The Pips. Gladys' name was NOT put in front:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eWJM4_0dEPA

This came out before anyone knew what a Primette or Supreme or Temptation or Miracle [[who were now going as that in the same year the Pips' debut record came out) was.

Also, the big scandal way before the Supremes were the Famous Flames. Initially when they formed, James Brown's name wasn't put in front of their name. It was first the Flames, then Little Richard's manager suggested they add "Famous" there to promote themselves better. After "Please Please Please" came out on Federal Records in 1956, James hired Ben Bart, who suggested the group become JAMES BROWN with the Famous Flames, that led to each and every member including Bobby Byrd walking out and leaving the group in protest. And James later had it that every record, including those he recorded solo or with his band [[starting roughly around 1959 or 1960) to be categorized as a James Brown and the Famous Flames recording even without the actual vocalists on it. That led many to think The Famous Flames was the name of his band [[which was easy to miscategorize because JB treated them like they were working FOR him rather than WITH him).

It took MANY years to be corrected and the 2012 Rock and Roll Hall of Fame committee finally fixed this glaring mistake. Like James blew up huge, but he was simply a lead singer of a group when songs like Please, Please, Please, Try Me, I'll Go Crazy and Oh Baby Don't You Weep were hits.

You can say Ike Turner did the reverse with Tina Turner, only adding his name because he wanted to assert control despite the fact it was Tina, and not Ike, that was singing lead on virtually every I&TT song that came out in their 16-year career.

But somehow what happened with the Supremes and Motown later on is supposed to be a unique thing. It's only unique because the group members whose name wasn't "Diana" had something to say about it. Berry felt the group's image couldn't last as a trio because one of the original members' hearts was not in it anymore after realizing that Motown was no longer the "family-oriented" company it was when they joined and had become a business that pretty much owned each and every act and put them under a salary, which was less than what every other act was getting paid.

I mean if we're gonna keep it real, let's get every fact right.

[midnightman]

Yes they were. Also Gladys and Smokey both left their groups and didn't get any flack for it. SMDH

With Gladys, it was understandable because she had stayed with them for nearly 40 years [[though I did read that William Guest felt some type of way about it).

But Smokey's tenure in the Miracles was as long as Diana's in the Supremes so yeah, makes you wonder. If Smoke had had his way, he'd left by the time 1970 hit had Tears of a Clown not been popular. I'm sure Pete, Ronnie and Bill felt some type of way about it but they didn't air their dirty laundry in the street...

[midnightman]

What does that have to do with it? Same old excuses. If you look at it that way then I guess you can say Gladys-Smokey-Martha were more selfish than Diana if they were like from the very beginning. At least Diana shared in the beginning. Why didn't Martha, Smokey, and Gladys share in the beginning? Because of their eggos and they were the stars! Diana Ross isn't the only superstar who didn't want the spotlight!

James Brown didn't think of the Famous Flames as anything but in his way of superstardom. No one talks of how much he hogged the spotlight. At one point, he got into a beef with Joe Tex over being "Soul Brother No. 1", had an intense rivalry with Wilson Pickett, who also rubbed it in James' face that he had the better vocals, and tried to bully Solomon Burke into giving him his trademark crown and cape and call him "the true king of soul". Solomon wouldn't do any of that but agreed to be in the show and got paid by James.

We know how Aretha Franklin got jealous of every female artist that started to get a little fame, from Gladys to Patti to Natalie to Whitney to...DIANA lol

One woman from the most successful girl group of all time decides she wants the spotlight and she's the devil...

Also someone said "Berry deserves the credit for the Supremes". Uh DUH, he deserves credit for each and every single one who hit it big in the early Motown years. That's like mentioning that Brian Epstein made the Beatles who they were or Allen Klein made the Rolling Stones. Or Kenny Gamble & Leon Huff made stars out of the O'Jays, Billy Paul and the Three Degrees. Or Joe Jackson making the Jackson 5.

That's like saying when an apple falls from a tree and hits you in the head, you know it's gonna hurt you.

[blackguy69]

In the miracles case even before the name change was made they were still refereed Smokey Robinson and the Miracles as far back as 63

[midnightman]

I'm sure that if Mary [[or Flo) had protested to sing more leads, we would have read about it in that BOOK!..you know, the 'exile' book...

Don't seem like they did much protesting about songs. Think Flo's thing was she wanted a break. Unsung mentioned how she felt overworked by 1966 and was tired of having to perform. The Supremes protesting about leads didn't really happen until after both Florence and Diana were gone... but I ain't one to gossip so you ain't heard that from me.

[midnightman]

In the miracles case even before the name change was made they were still refereed Smokey Robinson and the Miracles as far back as 63

So if that is true, then why was no one making a fuss about that? Back as far as 1963, huh?

[blackguy69]

that question should be asked to the other Supreme fans. You can repeat over and over how come such and such group do this but so and so gets flack. I really don’t know, repeating it over and over again isn’t going to change anyone’s mind. It’s just one of those y.

[blackguy69]

My personal opinion is it’s all about the marketing.

[captainjames]

The Miracles, The Pips, and The Supremes is what I remember. A good marketing tool is to bring the lead singer's name out front. I get that all too well. I have often wonder what would have happen if Diana left in 65-67 and what would have become of the Super Dooper Supremes.

Also when Barbara Martin was interviewed for the box set why couldn't Barbara Martin be interviewed by the person doing the interview ? Why did Mary do the interview for her and then bring back what she said ? All so very odd and mysterious to me.

At any rate it is what it is.......................Draw your own conclusions..........

[midnightman]

^ Wait Mary interviewed her? WHAT?

[captainjames]

^ Wait Mary interviewed her? WHAT?

Yes she did and its all so very one sided.

[blackguy69]

You’re reading too deep into it

[TheMotownManiac]

The Supremes Seemed to have 3 leads when they came to Motown, but Berry was only interested in Diana and told them so. They could have left, quit or refused but they didn’t. They agreed, became the biggest American group and crabbed about it. I’m not blaming anyone, we all make our choices, but it’s ignorant to blame Diana for Berry’s decision. How can she be hogging what was given to her? Did she want to share? Who knows. Did it matter if she did? Would Berry give leads away in his #1 group if he didn’t want to? It’s all so sophomoric to blame Diana for taking the leads given - that simply was the program. Period. And it worked beyond anyone’s wildest dream and created history.

[TheMotownManiac]

I’ve seen it. My impression was it switched up. Sometimes it was Diana, sometimes it was Mary. One thing is for sure, by the Copa show in 67 it wasn’t in the act
It was in the act in St. Louis in early 67. I thought Flo sang it all, but I might be remembering incorrectly. I know Diana was not on it because I recall vividly the look on her face as Flo sang - she seemed proud or something....happy maybe - but she was never in the main spotlight on that song. There pink and blue spotlights and `Flo was in a white light. I know I saw Mary sing it with Flo in 1966. I don’t ever recall Diana singing on it, but she might have in 1965…… I think I would remember back, but I just don’t remember her ever singing it. I was shocked when I first heard the recording of it and diana was singing with Flo.

[TheMotownManiac]

Yep a lie to sell books. Remember Mary was told they needed more dirt. I believe it was easier to say that People was snatched from Flo than to tell the Berry was Rhonda's dad.



While I believe that the publisher wanted as much dirt in the book as possible, I do not believe for one second that they would’ve been unhappy with the truth. like a lot of things in her book, I think this excuse is a large truck load of Horse manure.

Just because someone asks you to lie, doesn’t mean you have to lie. There was no reason to lie about people, there was no reason to lie about Florence on the Tonight Show, there was no reason to lie about the use of the Andantes, or to lie about interrupting flow during that interview which wound up on 25th anniversary… When it was actually Mary that interrupt ed Flo - there was anything wrong With that, but she used it as an example if Diana interrupting Flo, when it was really Mary. I feel that Mary was very disingenuous with her book, but, pretending not to understand why diana was upset with her after it’s release, is the most disingenuous thing anyone has ever said ever. Period! “ what did I ever do to her? “ she wailed outside of Spragga when she wasn’t invited to the party…… LOL

[midnightman]

Mary interrupted Flo on the Tonight Show?

[Insert Qaadir's "OKAY now catch the TEA on that".gif]

[midnightman]

It was in the act in St. Louis in early 67. I thought Flo sang it all, but I might be remembering incorrectly. I know Diana was not on it because I recall vividly the look on her face as Flo sang - she seemed proud or something....happy maybe - but she was never in the main spotlight on that song. There pink and blue spotlights and `Flo was in a white light. I know I saw Mary sing it with Flo in 1966. I don’t ever recall Diana singing on it, but she might have in 1965…… I think I would remember back, but I just don’t remember her ever singing it. I was shocked when I first heard the recording of it and diana was singing with Flo.

Now that makes things way more interesting...

[jim aka jtigre99]

This thread has become something else other than if Florence had stayed in the Supremes and how someone felt that she would have been good on "Stoned Love". Like I stated, with the inner tensions had Florence stayed, gordy would have pulled Diana Ross out sooner and probably discontinued the Supremes. had they got a third member with Florence and Mary, he would have given them even less attention than the 1970's Supremes because the company just didn't have the resources and Gordy would have made it his mission to prove he felt Diana Ross was irreplaceable. That aside, all of the members of the Supremes were talented and gave the group their own look and sound and I celebrate all of them and their talents.

[TheMotownManiac]

Mary interrupted Flo on the Tonight Show?

[Insert Qaadir's "OKAY now catch the TEA on that".gif]

no, Mary interrupted Flo during an interview on 25rh anniversary ...but in her book, she says Diana interrupted her.

In her book, Mary says that after Diana announced there was standings on the Tonight Show, that Flo monopolized the conversation after that and giving funny and honest answers to all of Johnny Carson‘s questions. However, now that we have that video, nothing could be further from the truth. I’m sure there are some true things In Mary’s books, but in her zeal to badmouth Diana, she resorts to lying.

It’s the same thing with the people story…….She purposely lead people to believe that glow had had her baby taken away from her which is not true and she neglected to state the fact that she was singing solos on it for at least two years. The way she tells the story versus the way it really happened is pure unadulterated Falsehood. That’s why I question a lot of the things in Mary’s books, because so much has been proven to be omitted or not true or misleading. And in my opinion there’s no excuse for it as it is clear just exactly what her agenda was.

[Jimi LaLumia]

and as we've mentioned before how she forgot to mention things like the interest free loan from DR that kept her from losing her house! did you see that in the book? I didn't!! lol

[midnightman]

no, Mary interrupted Flo during an interview on 25rh anniversary ...but in her book, she says Diana interrupted her.

In her book, Mary says that after Diana announced there was standings on the Tonight Show, that Flo monopolized the conversation after that and giving funny and honest answers to all of Johnny Carson‘s questions. However, now that we have that video, nothing could be further from the truth. I’m sure there are some true things In Mary’s books, but in her zeal to badmouth Diana, she resorts to lying.

It’s the same thing with the people story…….She purposely lead people to believe that glow had had her baby taken away from her which is not true and she neglected to state the fact that she was singing solos on it for at least two years. The way she tells the story versus the way it really happened is pure unadulterated Falsehood. That’s why I question a lot of the things in Mary’s books, because so much has been proven to be omitted or not true or misleading. And in my opinion there’s no excuse for it as it is clear just exactly what her agenda was.

Yikes... not cool. Not cool at all. And Mary wonders why she and Diana ain't close now... :/

[marv2]

and as we've mentioned before how she forgot to mention things like the interest free loan from DR that kept her from losing her house! did you see that in the book? I didn't!! lol

I can't see what everyone else wrote because they are on ignore. I know this has nothing to do with the topic of this thread. First of all, I believe you are referring to Mary Wilson. That $30,000 loan Diane made to Mary in 1981 after Mary's divorce was paid back within a year INCLUDING INTEREST!. Mary Wilson wrote about that in detail in her book "Supreme Faith: Someday We'll Be Together" pub. 1990 Harper Collins. Everyone that read the book knows it. Now what else Supremely monumental happened in 1981? Yep, Diane signed a recording deal with RCA for $20 million. That $30,000 including interest payments was chump change especially after all Mary Wilson has done for Diana Ross in the past.......!

Whoever said Mary did not mention that is lying and needs to stop lying all the time. How else do you think we even know about the loan? Mary wrote about it in her book! Lying for the sake of lying just damages the person's overall reputation when they lie. They become known as "the liar", so stop lying all the time.

[marv2]

Yikes... not cool. Not cool at all. And Mary wonders why she and Diana ain't close now... :/

You should be quite full of it by now, because you eat up everything and anything......hehehehehehe!

[ralpht]

If you guys want my opinion on this matter, I think the thread is silly. Who knows what would happen if so and so stayed in a group or who was responsible for what. Its the music business. Get over it.

[midnightman]

^ And that's pretty much all there is to that.

[TheMotownManiac]

I can't see what everyone else wrote because they are on ignore. I know this has nothing to do with the topic of this thread. First of all, I believe you are referring to Mary Wilson. That $30,000 loan Diane made to Mary in 1981 after Mary's divorce was paid back within a year INCLUDING INTEREST!. Mary Wilson wrote about that in detail in her book "Supreme Faith: Someday We'll Be Together" pub. 1990 Harper Collins. Everyone that read the book knows it. Now what else Supremely monumental happened in 1981? Yep, Diane signed a recording deal with RCA for $20 million. That $30,000 including interest payments was chump change especially after all Mary Wilson has done for Diana Ross in the past.......!

Whoever said Mary did not mention that is lying and needs to stop lying all the time. How else do you think we even know about the loan? Mary wrote about it in her book! Lying for the sake of lying just damages the person's overall reputation when they lie. They become known as "the liar", so stop lying all the time.

You are correct that Mary said she paid it back with interest as requested. Personal loans of that size need to charge minimal interest or the IRS gets involved. It was chump change and I’m sure no biggie, but she had just been ripped off pretty good, so she was being more careful. Mary did very little for Diana that I can think of. What were you referring to?

as for lying, .....////

[TheMotownManiac]

However, if Flo HAD stayed, it would be because she was OK and the group would have been as or more popular. I do not think Flo on any of the records that the on Dantes did would’ve changed the fortunes of those records, but it would’ve been so wonderful to have her there. Then, after January 14, 1970, the addition of Jhené to row would not have been such a shock to the system and I think the new group would have fared much better . Flo didn’t have to sing any leads, and maybe she would’ve had one here in there, just having her in the group improved it so much. She was immensely popular and without question the most popular background singer in the history of pop music that I can think of…… No one even comes close! She would’ve been adorable in the green swirl dresses, the butterfly downs, the pleated sleeves ......If Flo had stayed, the group would’ve been more popular in the 60s and the 70s…… No matter what her participation was. By the time mary got her hair together which was 1968, the two of them would’ve been dynamite of epic proportion’s.

[Jimi LaLumia]

in the 1960's, it was all about RADIO, a record was a hit or it wasn't...and RADIO didn't care about all of the above, if it did, all those Andantes backed Diana Ross records released as Supremes wouldn't have gone to #1..

[jobucats]

However, if Flo HAD stayed, it would be because she was OK and the group would have been as or more popular. I do not think Flo on any of the records that the on Dantes did would’ve changed the fortunes of those records, but it would’ve been so wonderful to have her there. Then, after January 14, 1970, the addition of Jhené to row would not have been such a shock to the system and I think the new group would have fared much better . Flo didn’t have to sing any leads, and maybe she would’ve had one here in there, just having her in the group improved it so much. She was immensely popular and without question the most popular background singer in the history of pop music that I can think of…… No one even comes close! She would’ve been adorable in the green swirl dresses, the butterfly downs, the pleated sleeves ......If Flo had stayed, the group would’ve been more popular in the 60s and the 70s…… No matter what her participation was. By the time mary got her hair together which was 1968, the two of them would’ve been dynamite of epic proportion’s.

In your thinking [[and this is not a negative indictment by me), was Florence being "without question the most popular background singer in the history of pop music" true back in the sixties or is it true based on what happened to her that folk found out about her tragic death? Living back in the 60s, other than from Supreme fans, I don't recall there being a lot of buzz in the popular music realm about either Mary or Florence as individuals.

[TheMotownManiac]

You are quite right - radio didn’t care that Flo left - only I did! What I was saying is that there was some small amount of drop off in interest in the group cuz Flo was gone but that after Ross left, The 70s Supremes would not have seemed so unfamiliar if Jean was the only new member. Flo was beloved by a large part of the core fans - the casual fans didn’t care who it was - but let’s face it: Cindy, sweet as she is, didn’t have one-tenth the charisma Flo had - Mary was not in Flo’s league either, but she developed after Flo left. I think the story of JMF would have been much happier for all concerned - including the fans - if Flo had stayed. The revolving door syndrome was no myth, many/most fans could look at the Right On cover all day and not see The Supremes. Flo would have been a huge help in that dept. their box office problems, IMO, would not have been so bad so fast.

Again, no one cared who was in the bg, as long as it was assumed it was Real Supremes. The sound meant nothing. Two of their biggest had no Supremes in the bg, used different personnel, and both went platinum. It did matter however when casual fans didn’t recognize members no matter how good they were.

[midnightman]

I wonder how other groups' fans feel about us lol

They must think "man these Supremes fans are bananas."

[Jimi LaLumia]

we ARE! and I adored Diana, Mary and Flo and rooted for all three and all their projects during and after the group...but the attacks[[baseless attacks I might add) on the figurehead of 1960's Motown [[yes, HER) are not something I will quietly abide by..plus it gives me the chance to point out that if DR hadn't been DR, Motown Records wouldn't have been Motown Records, at least not on the scale that it reached because of HER!!

[midnightman]

we ARE! and I adored Diana, Mary and Flo and rooted for all three and all their projects during and after the group...but the attacks[[baseless attacks I might add) on the figurehead of 1960's Motown [[yes, HER) are not something I will quietly abide by..plus it gives me the chance to point out that if DR hadn't been DR, Motown Records wouldn't have been Motown Records, at least not on the scale that it reached because of HER!!

I don't understand how it's still controversial to say Diana Ross contributed to the majority of Motown Records' successes. But I see how many successful black women who get to the TOP as she did [[like Whitney Houston and Janet Jackson) get the ultimate disrespect. So I guess I'm not surprised. Especially when it's YOUR OWN PEOPLE waiting to tear you down because they feel you "left them".

[PeaceNHarmony]

I don't understand how it's still controversial to say Diana Ross contributed to the majority of Motown Records' successes. But I see how many successful black women who get to the TOP as she did [[like Whitney Houston and Janet Jackson) get the ultimate disrespect. So I guess I'm not surprised. Especially when it's YOUR OWN PEOPLE waiting to tear you down because they feel you "left them".
A sad conundrum indeed. I always remember Dionne's statement 'When I look in the mirror I know who I am' when questioned about her 'Blackness'.

[PeaceNHarmony]

I mostly agree with 'It's the music business, get over it'. But for real? If Florence Ballard had returned to The Supremes at any time after Diana left there would have been a brief resurgence of interest before the ultimate disbandment. Diana was the voice and the face of the Supremes. Get over it.

[TheMotownManiac]

In your thinking [[and this is not a negative indictment by me), was Florence being "without question the most popular background singer in the history of pop music" true back in the sixties or is it true based on what happened to her that folk found out about her tragic death? Living back in the 60s, other than from Supreme fans, I don't recall there being a lot of buzz in the popular music realm about either Mary or Florence as individuals.

Excellent question! Among Supremes fans, many loved Flo enough to mention her. No one ever mentioned [[to me) Mary or any of the other bg singers in girl groups. Or boy groups for that matter. As the years rolled on and I got to know many fans, the ones that mentioned a bg singer in a positive manner, like 95% of it was Flo, a few liked Cindy and Marv prefers Mary. Of course, some liked them all and many only liked Diana. This is in no way meant as a slam to Mary, because they were all wonderful…… But, she just didn’t shine as bright as Flo Who just seem to have that something extra. In the scheme of things, she wasn’t that popular I guess, because, aside from the real true fans, there was very little hubbub about it when she left. Personally, I was horrified and never appreciated Cindy until I met her - and even then it was a tough sell. Once Diana left, I realized they weren’t really The Supremes anymore in name only - so then, Cindy was a welcome member. Mary benefitted a great deal by Flo’s departure as she really outshined Cindy and upped her game a great deal.

[midnightman]

A sad conundrum indeed. I always remember Dionne's statement 'When I look in the mirror I know who I am' when questioned about her 'Blackness'.

Yeah. Whitney had the same issue after she got booed at the Soul Train Awards in 1989. And, if I'm not mistaken, so did Donna Summer and Beyonce [[before she began her "woke" era in the post-era Obama America). Like the more successful you get and you start to get involved in being a crossover artist, some who knew you from jump street think you're "not hip" anymore because you've made it well for yourself. It's a sad putdown. Trying to exist in two worlds if you're in the entertainment industry is tough.

[RanRan79]

I was avoiding this thread like the plague. Lol Glad I did but I'm going to throw my two cents in and dip. I think it's obvious that a lot of the Mary/Flo fans just refuse to bring themselves to the factual conclusion that Diana Ross was a bigger component to the success of the Supremes than Mary and Florence. On top of that, some of them seem to have internalized any gripes that Mary and Flo had in regards to Diana Ross and the internal problems of the group, as if what happened to the girls, happened to the fan. Weird.

On the other hand, many Diana fans hate the fact that Florence and Mary can never be relegated to nameless, faceless, voiceless, background singers for Diana. They were never marketed that way [[honestly, not even during the DRATS era, though it was clear which singer was being pushed), and me thinks it's hard for some to recognize that, while true that Diana was the BIG piece of the Supreme pie, she didn't- and couldn't- do it alone. Nothing provokes their annoyance quite like RTL, a situation that drummed home the fact that the larger public was more interested in the combo of Diana and Mary [[and Cindy) than they were Diana with faceless, nameless, voiceless Supremes. [[Not that I feel that way about Scherrie and Lynda, but the general public feels that way.)

The Supremes were successful because of the three singers. The three women were equally important human beings above all else. One went on to superstardom, another carved out her own place in music with sheer determination and hard work, while another rode the wave of life, rising to triumph, dipping into despair, and slowly climbing her way back up until the life was cut short. But the three of them together left behind some of the greatest music ever.

I wish the actual threads about the music itself received so many passionate responses. But I guess the music isn't an interesting as the drama.:rolleyes:

[Jimi LaLumia]

'though it was clear which singer was being pushed'...lol..really?
she was the LEAD SINGER..like Martha Reeves, Gladys Knight, Levi Stubbs, Smokey Robinson, etc....LEAD SINGER...period... such silly statements,was Beyonce pushed in Destiny's Child?...no, she was the LEAD SINGER...get over it!!!

[RanRan79]

'though it was clear which singer was being pushed'...lol..really?
she was the LEAD SINGER..like Martha Reeves, Gladys Knight, Levi Stubbs, Smokey Robinson, etc....LEAD SINGER...period... such silly statements,was Beyonce pushed in Destiny's Child?...no, she was the LEAD SINGER...get over it!!!

Are you stupid or something? Lets revisit my comment just in case you are a bit on the slow side and not the idiot your comment makes you appear. I said "On the other hand, many Diana fans hate the fact that Florence and Mary can never be relegated to nameless, faceless, voiceless, background singers for Diana. They were never marketed that way [[honestly, not even during the DRATS era, though it was clear which singer was being pushed)..."

Diana was the lead singer of the Supremes just like Michael was [[mostly) the lead singer of the J5, but both groups were marketed as a...get this...a group. Both groups had that one attraction [[Diana, Michael) but as a collective each member was her/his own star. The Supremes were the Supremes to the world from 1964-1967. When the name was changed to Diana Ross and the Supremes, "it was clear which singer was being pushed".

Diana, Gordy and other higher ups at Motown have been very forthcoming over the years regarding what the purpose of the DRATS era was all about: they were readying Diana for her well deserved super stardom. You know, she was being pushed. Are you arguing just to argue or were you really confused by what I was saying?

[blackguy69]

Ran I said it before it was about the marketing but some just don’t get it.

[RanRan79]

Ran I said it before it was about the marketing but some just don’t get it.

I don't think that's the part he didn't get. In fact, I suspect he got exactly what I was saying but chose to reply by taking something I said and trying to frame it as though I was saying something else in order to get his argument. It's hard for people like Jimi and Marv to wrap their heads around fans of the Supremes and Diana Ross who actually LOVE the various Supremes and Diana Ross. It's almost funny how various posts of mine get criticized for being anti Mary/Flo and/or anti Diana Ross. How is this even possible?:rolleyes: Some of these folks belong in an asylum.

[blackguy69]

I guess because everyone had their favorites that they hate to see anything negative said about them. That being said, I never understood how emotional some people are about their favorite stars. It’s almost like an obsession.

[midnightman]

Like I said, Ran, we Supremes fans are a peculiar bunch. LOL

[jobucats]

All these "my Supreme is better than your Supreme" middle school games remind me of a certain leader who, in order to try to elevate his worth and persona, feels the need to negatively blast his predescessor.

[midnightman]

All these "my Supreme is better than your Supreme" middle school games remind me of a certain leader who, in order to try to elevate his worth and persona, feels the need to negatively blast his predescessor.

Ooh, good point!

[WaitingWatchingLookingForAChance]

IF Florence Had Stayed...The Supremes would still have eventually become a "C" group all the same. Florence would not have been offered the lead spot, because The Motown Way would not have allowed it. Jean would still have been brought into the group, because Berry would still have been reasoning the same way: we need a fresh start and a new lead singer.

He would still have chosen Jean, still have had second thoughts- especially with Florence in the group. If he could not bear one Strong Woman who stood up to him, he would gone into heart-failure thinking about the prospect of having TWO Strong Women in the group [[recall that he wanted to can Jean because she didn't fall so easily into the whatever-Berry-says-is-ok-with-me mind trip.)

Think about how delicious THAT would have been; Two Strong Women, the new lead singer being a twin, attitude-wise to the already established original member. The halls of Motown would have been echoing with cries of "Here Come The Flo Twins!" OR "Here Come Berry's Number One and Number Two headaches- WATCHOUT!" This would have been said, of course, with a certain twisted pleasure and immense respect for two women who didn't kowtow to anybody, Dammit!

Berry would then propose to have Syreeta join the group which still would have backfired like a bad acid trip; Florence in no way would have stood for another set up where the lead singer had Berry's undivided attention.

IF FLORENCE HAD STAYED... Jean would have been the lead and pretty much everything would have played out exactly as it did. The only difference is that we would have heard Florence's voice in the background much more prominently than in the years before, and that would have been refreshing. Still, because all things were still happening The Motown Way, Florence would not have been offered any more or less opportunities to sing lead. OR, if she were given leads, they would have buried on the albums with no radio exposure. We would have listened to them and thought, "Florence sounds good on this! If they had put that out, it WOULD HAVE BEEN A HIT!"

But we all know The Motown Way would not have had it happen that way if Florence had stayed.

[ralpht]

Like I mentioned earlier, this thread is rather idiotic and I see cracks beginning to appear. Therefore, I'm stopping it. I'll leave it up for a while.