Did the Shirelles influence the Supremes?

[luke]

I just saw a clip on PBS of the Shirelles. Shirley set off a bit to the side and the others doing a little shimmy while they sang. What do others think? Have never seen a clip of the Chantels back then.

[marv2]

Yes, according to Mary. She was influenced by the Shirelles:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9Ij6MTdNDA

[marv2]

There is a clip of the Chantels from the 1950s from Dick Clark's Saturday Night Beechnut Show on Youtube.

[luke]

Thanks.... I know Mary said she liked the Shirelles but wasn’t clear if their style influenced the Supremes/ Motown presentation of them.

[marv2]

Thanks.... I know Mary said she liked the Shirelles but wasn’t clear if their style influenced the Supremes/ Motown presentation of them.

Mary use to say that she use to think she was "Shirley of the Shirelles" meaning she tried to sound like her when she was very young.

[milven]

Mary use to say that she use to think she was "Shirley of the Shirelles" meaning she tried to sound like her when she was very young.

Mary does a terrific job on WILL YOU STILL LOVE ME TOMORROW. Wish she had not clung so tightly to the Supremes after she went solo and concentrated more on songs like this.

I knew all the Shirelles a century ago back when I MET HIM ON A SUNDAY came out. In later years, got to know Shirley's daughter Chyna [[sp?).

A few years ago, there was a musical about Florence Greenburg and Sceptor Records on Broadway. After one of the performances, Shirley came out and sang some Shirelles songs. I loved the musical but wondered why the Shirelles biggest hit, WILL YOU STILL LOVE ME TOMORROW was not included. I guess Carol King, the writer, was saving it for her own story on Broadway, BEAUTIFUL: THE CAROL KING MUSICAL.

A few uears ago, I saw Beverly Lee, one of the surviving members, at a local art show. I told her that I saw the Broadway show and enjoyed it. Surprisingly, she did not sound that pleased. Turns out that she and the estates of two deceased Shirelles sued for using their likenesses without permission. It caused the show to close early. Sad. There were other great Sceptor/Wand acts featured in the musical.

WILL YOU STILL LOVE ME TOMORROW is one of my all time favorite songs and one of the earliest rock and roll songs to feature strings.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cnPlJxet_ac

[motony]

The Shirelles were a big influence on all the girl groups that came after them.

[luke]

I saw a video on you tube of Shirley singing on stage of that broadway musical after the show.

[sup_fan]

I'd say yes and no. the Shirelles are most definitely a train-blazing group. they certain set the standard for the "traditional girl group" as it was defined in the early 60s. And the Sups certainly tried to emulate this concept too. But frankly it didn't really work for the supremes too much.

The Girl Group era ran from the very late 50s through 63, perhaps almost up to the arrival of the Beatles and the British Invasion. For the most part, the groups sang wholesome cutsie-pie songs, wore simple but attractive feminine outfits, harmonized and were, frankly, a bit interchangeable.

with the first hits, the Sups still projected a youthful image but even their early looks and gowns were more sophisticated by time Where hit. There's that video of them in floor-length red velvet gowns, with big upswept do's. Very different from the images of the Shirelles, Chiffons, etc.

Plus the supremes had so much more showmanship. I don't personally know all that much about what other groups attempted or could handle, but Motown's vision of MOR accessibility and the Sups talent at singing this material was perfectly pair. They were singing Anyone With a Heart and People very early in the shows. And as they advanced, Motown gave them more and more.

[midnightman]

I'm gonna say something unpopular but I think the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame made a mistake inducting the Supremes first before the Shirelles. Sure, the [[original) Supremes broke a lot of barriers to become who they became but it wouldn't have been possible without the Shirelles [[as well as the Chantels, Marvelettes and Chiffons).

[marv2]

I will never buy this "it wouldn't have been possible" way of thinking. People were not opposed to women singing together in groups. They've done that for decades in church and during the early Jazz age. If you have a good sound and song, it really doesn't matter if anyone has done exactly what you're doing before. It's up to the public. The Boswell Sisters became a popular female singing trio in the late 1920s. The Andrew Sisters were the most popular female group of the 1940s. There were many, many other female vocal groups years before the Shirelles, Supremes, Chantels etc.etc,etc.

[luke]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=O-xlEPu9_nQ Isn’t there a Chantel missing or is Arlene blocking her? I may have read one was too young to tour? Though Arlene was pretty young!

[marv2]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=O-xlEPu9_nQ Isn’t there a Chantel missing or is Arlene blocking her? I may have read one was too young to tour? Though Arlene was pretty young!

She is blocking her. Arlene was a big girl and television production was not all that great in those days. I went to college with Michelle Davis of the Bronx, her mother was one of the original Chantels. I can't remember her name or maiden name at the moment.

[marv2]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=O-xlEPu9_nQ Isn’t there a Chantel missing or is Arlene blocking her? I may have read one was too young to tour? Though Arlene was pretty young!

Oh you mean the 5th member? I don't where she was. They all went to Jr. High and H.S. together in the Bronx. St. Anthony Padua which is still there.

[luke]

Really?poor girl!

[luke]

It’s a shame what happened to the Shirelles...I read an interview with Shirley and she said the others would not let her back in group after she had left to have a baby. I guess there are two sides though.

[smallworld]

I agree that the Shirelles should have been inducted first. "Will You Love Me Tomorrow" is one of those hits that heralded a new era of frank lyric writing in popular music, courtesy of Gerry Goffin; building on the foundation of their previous hit "Tonight's the Night", which Shirley co-wrote with the group's chief collaborator, Luther Dixon. "Boys", on the flipside of "... Tomorrow", is as sexually charged as the top side, but showcases a rowdier, simultaneously carefree side of the group. The Shirelles' distinctive blend of sexuality, alternately thoughtful/pensive and cheerful, but never bawdy or blue, was unprecedented. The 1960s was dawning and the Shirelles soundtracked it more than any other girl group of that time.

The irony of the British Invasion seemingly sweeping the Girl Group era aside, was that the Shirelles were inspirational figures to that movement. They didn't just inspire female singers like Dusty Springfield, as might be expected; the male performers also mined their catalogue for material - most famously, The Beatles, via their cover of "Boys" on their debut LP.

The Shirelles are long overdue a major documentary or dramatic film.

[luke]

I agree. They deserve more. Didn’t Mickie do a pretty risqué thing with her dress?!! A lot more than Florence did with her stomach lol

[marv2]

I agree. They deserve more. Didn’t Mickie do a pretty risqué thing with her dress?!! A lot more than Florence did with her stomach lol

Micki did some rather, urr "soulful" ad-libs at times on stage. Did you know that Dionne Warwick was once a temporary member of the Shirelles?

[midnightman]

I agree that the Shirelles should have been inducted first. "Will You Love Me Tomorrow" is one of those hits that heralded a new era of frank lyric writing in popular music, courtesy of Gerry Goffin; building on the foundation of their previous hit "Tonight's the Night", which Shirley co-wrote with the group's chief collaborator, Luther Dixon. "Boys", on the flipside of "... Tomorrow", is as sexually charged as the top side, but showcases a rowdier, simultaneously carefree side of the group. The Shirelles' distinctive blend of sexuality, alternately thoughtful/pensive and cheerful, but never bawdy or blue, was unprecedented. The 1960s was dawning and the Shirelles soundtracked it more than any other girl group of that time.

The irony of the British Invasion seemingly sweeping the Girl Group era aside, was that the Shirelles were inspirational figures to that movement. They didn't just inspire female singers like Dusty Springfield, as might be expected; the male performers also mined their catalogue for material - most famously, The Beatles, via their cover of "Boys" on their debut LP.

The Shirelles are long overdue a major documentary or dramatic film.

Being the first black girl group to accomplish a lot, yeah, they definitely deserve one.

[luke]

I sure did Marv and Dionne never forgot them!

[sup_fan]

much of the girl group era has been marginalized. the groups had such limited control over their content, approach, style and material. so historians have sidelined them a bit. and to be honest, some girl group material was pretty light weight. but you're right in terms of the shirelles and others being trail blazers.

But think of it - even the Supremes have been marginalized when compared to Marvin's work or the beatles or other big bands. the girls didn't produce or write and so their contributions have been viewed as less significant.

[StuBass1]

Very much yes, as the Shirelles and Chiffons set the standard for those "girl groups" of the 60's...The two things that then separated The Supremes from those before, as is often the case, was the professionally delivered stage presence and choregraphy, and in the Supremes case...Holland. Dozier, Holland who set a trend for the style of material and kept a chain of hits and follow ups going throughout the 60's or until they left Motown. What came later was very good in may cases...but not as patented and firmly recognizable as THEIR own style as different writers and producers all tried to get on the gravy train known as The Supremes...

[marv2]

much of the girl group era has been marginalized. the groups had such limited control over their content, approach, style and material. so historians have sidelined them a bit. and to be honest, some girl group material was pretty light weight. but you're right in terms of the shirelles and others being trail blazers.

But think of it - even the Supremes have been marginalized when compared to Marvin's work or the beatles or other big bands. the girls didn't produce or write and so their contributions have been viewed as less significant.

Those other acts didn't do all that choreography and harmonies either. It's all artistry and what you value.

[midnightman]

much of the girl group era has been marginalized. the groups had such limited control over their content, approach, style and material. so historians have sidelined them a bit. and to be honest, some girl group material was pretty light weight. but you're right in terms of the shirelles and others being trail blazers.

But think of it - even the Supremes have been marginalized when compared to Marvin's work or the beatles or other big bands. the girls didn't produce or write and so their contributions have been viewed as less significant.

That is true. Then again, they were in an industry where if they wanted to write and produce, they'd get laughed at. Like, "are you crazy? Women can't write!" Then Carole King and Ellie Greenwich showed everyone wrong. I just wish it extended to the groups.

[RanRan79]

I'm gonna say something unpopular but I think the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame made a mistake inducting the Supremes first before the Shirelles. Sure, the [[original) Supremes broke a lot of barriers to become who they became but it wouldn't have been possible without the Shirelles [[as well as the Chantels, Marvelettes and Chiffons).

The Supremes' impact on music and culture was bigger than that of the Shirelles, and for that I think the Supremes deserved an in before the Shirelles. I'm no Beatles fan at all, but I can't argue against their induction before some other bands who may have come before them, and thus influenced them and others. The Beatles impact on music and the culture in general is indisputable. So as I feel the Supremes.

[marv2]

The same thing happened to the Shirelles that happened to the Marvelettes for a while. There was a guy up in the Bronx that sent out multiple groups of "Shirelles" to perform on the weekends. This was mostly back in the 80s.
The original Shirelles had broken up and each [[Shirley, Doris and Bev) were all leading there own groups of "Shirelles". I know there was a lawsuit, but I can't remember the details at the moment. Beverly ended up with the legal rights to the name however.

[luke]

I believe Doris could also legally use the name on the West coast. Don’t know if they used the Mississippi River as the dividing point!

[marv2]

I believe Doris could also legally use the name on the West coast. Don’t know if they used the Mississippi River as the dividing point!

I don't know, but since Doris has passed away, Beverly and her two keep the name alive. Shirley still performs as well.

[midnightman]

The Supremes' impact on music and culture was bigger than that of the Shirelles, and for that I think the Supremes deserved an in before the Shirelles. I'm no Beatles fan at all, but I can't argue against their induction before some other bands who may have come before them, and thus influenced them and others. The Beatles impact on music and the culture in general is indisputable. So as I feel the Supremes.

No one can argue how big the Supremes' impact was... but we can't forget the other groups that came before them. Most of us do that too often.

[RanRan79]

No one can argue how big the Supremes' impact was... but we can't forget the other groups that came before them. Most of us do that too often.

No we can't forget, and for music lovers like ourselves it's impossible to forget because there's room in our hearts for many musical acts. Unlimited room in my case. But the suggestion that the Shirelles deserved to be in the HOF before the Supremes boils down to impact, and the Supremes have to get that honor first, IMO. Aretha Franklin is the Queen of Soul. Her place in music history is set. Her impact is indisputable. But Ruth Brown and Etta James and others were doing it before the world knew who a Aretha Franklin was. I dig Ruth and I LOVE Etta, but I can not- will not- make a case for either of them getting into the HOF before the Queen.

However, had the Shirelles gotten in before the Supremes it would have been a deserving honor. They really were the girl group of the "rock and roll" era that really first defined the changing music scene.

[luke]

Back to the original question. Surely the Shirelles presentation was a prototype for the Supremes...the ladies little steps and shimmying and Shirley off to the side a little bit. The Chantels didn’t do that. Any Bobettes videos?

[marv2]

Back to the original question. Surely the Shirelles presentation was a prototype for the Supremes...the ladies little steps and shimmying and Shirley off to the side a little bit. The Chantels didn’t do that. Any Bobettes videos?

The Ronettes were on national television before the Supremes, so were the Crystals. The McGuire Sisters?

[luke]

Good point! The Ronettes trendsetters too! I don’t think the Crystals or McGuires did shimmying and steps!

[midnightman]

No we can't forget, and for music lovers like ourselves it's impossible to forget because there's room in our hearts for many musical acts. Unlimited room in my case. But the suggestion that the Shirelles deserved to be in the HOF before the Supremes boils down to impact, and the Supremes have to get that honor first, IMO. Aretha Franklin is the Queen of Soul. Her place in music history is set. Her impact is indisputable. But Ruth Brown and Etta James and others were doing it before the world knew who a Aretha Franklin was. I dig Ruth and I LOVE Etta, but I can not- will not- make a case for either of them getting into the HOF before the Queen.

However, had the Shirelles gotten in before the Supremes it would have been a deserving honor. They really were the girl group of the "rock and roll" era that really first defined the changing music scene.

Oh most definitely. Most definitely...

I think it can be argued the Shirelles peaked before they could have even a bigger impact than they did and the Supremes basically bust down the door the Shirelles were trying to open.

The way the Supremes broke down barriers was actually far more revolutionary in retrospect so I get why they got in first like Aretha. I understand that so well.

[motony]

The Marvelettes, Crystals, Ronettes & Shirelles were great LIVE acts. The Crystals all had great on-stage persona & the Ronettes were like WOW.

[luke]

I didn’t find the Crystals very lively back then but now La La Brooks tears it up!

[arr&bee]

Interesting question,i love the shirelles,but we know how berry was thinking at the start of the supremes career,he would've had em singin like the andrews sisters...if it would've gotten them some hits!