Cindy Birdsong - Till the Boat Sails Away [[1976)

[marv2]

Here Cindy Birdsong takes a shot at "Till the Boat Sails Away" originally recorded by the Supremes with Mary Wilson singing lead. Scherrie Payne is doing the background on this recording:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vl-TSjt5jOg

[Circa 1824]

Here Cindy Birdsong takes a shot at "Till the Boat Sails Away" originally recorded by the Supremes with Mary Wilson singing lead. Scherrie Payne is doing the background on this recording:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vl-TSjt5jOg

Love ya Cindy, but u r not a singer. You are a lady and pretty face.

[captainjames]

Love Cindy
Hate this song

[midnightman]

Like I said in the "He's My Man" thread, no one knew what to do with most of the Supremes with songs in the later years and Cindy is a PERFECT example. Much love to Cindy but no.

[George Solomon]

This was recorded at J. Randy Taraborrelli's house on a Karaoke machine in the mid eighties just for fun one night when Scherrie and Cindy were over...

[marv2]

I don't think it is bad at all even for an impromptu recording.

[Boogiedown]

This was recorded at J. Randy Taraborrelli's house on a Karaoke machine in the mid eighties just for fun one night when Scherrie and Cindy were over...

tape must've warped.

[Circa 1824]

I don't think it is bad at all even for an impromptu recording.

From the same ears that likes Wilson’s “singing.”

[Bluebrock]

Love ya Cindy, but u r not a singer. You are a lady and pretty face.
It's a bit of a dull song to start with, but Cindy is no great shakes as a lead singer. Mary's voice was better suited to it, but i could happily have managed without it on the otherwise strong "high energy" album.

[daviddh]

just a thought Cindy didn't have training to be lead, she was used to singing ohh baby ohh baby etc but perhaps some training vocally she may have found her own voice as MW did.

[sup_fan]

Also background singing isn’t just something anyone can do. Sometimes people r a bit dismissive of it but it isn’t simply singing ooh ahhh. One of the most important components is blend. Providing a substantial and beautiful foundation for the lead melody. Plus there harmonies. It often involves more complex intervals and jumps than the lead

In one book someone described m and f as providing a lush velvet backdrop for diamond Diana to sparkle upon. That’s actually a tough role to accomplish

[marv2]

Also background singing isn’t just something anyone can do. Sometimes people r a bit dismissive of it but it isn’t simply singing ooh ahhh. One of the most important components is blend. Providing a substantial and beautiful foundation for the lead melody. Plus there harmonies. It often involves more complex intervals and jumps than the lead

In one book someone described m and f as providing a lush velvet backdrop for diamond Diana to sparkle upon. That’s actually a tough role to accomplish

You are right. It is not easy creating intricate harmonies and at the same time performing all that choreography the Supremes were known for over the years.

Another thing. This is just one song and one recording.
I think we all know that Cindy Birdsong could sing, this may not show her off at her best, but there are many singers that made some recordings that were less than stellar.

[kenneth]

Here Cindy Birdsong takes a shot at "Till the Boat Sails Away" originally recorded by the Supremes with Mary Wilson singing lead. Scherrie Payne is doing the background on this recording:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vl-TSjt5jOg

I actually like it. It's odd, because in the background I can rarely pick Cindy out yet hearing her sing lead, her voice is very unique. I think a lot more would find it pleasing if it wasn't a distorted wobbly cassette transfer. But I think her voice has a nice quality.

By the way, that pose with the girls in the red dresses is the one where I simply can hardly recognize Cindy. It's from the back cover of "Supremes '75." They seem to have air brushed away her beautiful and unique quality of her eyes. She kind of has "Bette Davis eyes," [[usually), IMHO.

[drlorne]

Twenty Feet from Stardom was a documentary that portrayed many "background" singers.
I agree with the above comments that they provided important aspects to the music. Cindy was a Supreme for a long time and if she didn't have the voice, she 1) wouldn't have been hired from and 2) wouldn't have kept the job, there were lots of other talented singers around.
Not everyone has to be the lead.
Lorne

[lakeside]

The song is a clunker regardless who sings it. Background singers sing background for a reason...and many do a fine job, as Cindy did. Some are able to come forward and sing lead, some not so well. You have groups like The Pointer Sisters who all sang lead.

[luke]

For using a karaoke machine in someone’s house Cindy did a great job. Her harmonies with Mary on Stoned Love etc were stellar. I don’t get all the criticism. Berry said she was a great singer when she auditioned. She has a lovely pure voice that also has power e.g. Time to break Down, Up the Ladder etc etc

[marv2]

Here she displays some of her vocal power:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v6TBp7JvoXs

[Bluebrock]

Also background singing isn’t just something anyone can do. Sometimes people r a bit dismissive of it but it isn’t simply singing ooh ahhh. One of the most important components is blend. Providing a substantial and beautiful foundation for the lead melody. Plus there harmonies. It often involves more complex intervals and jumps than the lead

In one book someone described m and f as providing a lush velvet backdrop for diamond Diana to sparkle upon. That’s actually a tough role to accomplish
I do agree that it takes a certain talent to sing background vocals. Cindy and Mary did the job supremely, pardon the play on words, but did not have that certain star quality to be lead singer.

[luke]

Thanks Marv. That certainly was a Cindy Birdsong we never got to hear.

[marv2]

Thanks Marv. That certainly was a Cindy Birdsong we never got to hear.

You're welcome Luke. Had she gotten the opportunities earlier, she could have developed into a show stopper. But alas she had morals and did not want to play the casting couch game some others did to get ahead.............

[Roberta75]

You're welcome Luke. Had she gotten the opportunities earlier, she could have developed into a show stopper. But alas she had morals and did not want to play the casting couch game some others did to get ahead.............

Oh my im shocked. what a real nasty business the music business is.

[midnightman]

just a thought Cindy didn't have training to be lead, she was used to singing ohh baby ohh baby etc but perhaps some training vocally she may have found her own voice as MW did.

I mean she started her career singing in the background of this equally legendary lady:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JdJ29N-stQw

Not only Patti but also Nona Hendryx's and Sarah Dash's vocals were so loud you could hardly hear Cindy!

And then after Diana, she had to deal with Jean Terrell and Scherrie Payne's own impeccable vocals...

Why is anyone shocked?

Four powerful singers [[and in the cases of Diana and Patti, greater personalities), come on now.

[marv2]

I mean she started her career singing in the background of this equally legendary lady:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JdJ29N-stQw

Not only Patti but also Nona Hendryx's and Sarah Dash's vocals were so loud you could hardly hear Cindy!

And then after Diana, she had to deal with Jean Terrell and Scherrie Payne's own impeccable vocals...

Why is anyone shocked?

Four powerful singers [[and in the cases of Diana and Patti, greater personalities), come on now.

There's nothing to argue about. If Cindy were not a good singer, how in the heck was she a member of two of the greatest girl groups in history? Berry Gordy would not have let her into his top group and kept her at Motown for approx. 10 years!

[gman]

Cindy's voice blended well with Mary's, Scherrie's and Jean's...her voice is a "team player" and she has a very smooth sound. She was more suited to adding flourishes than being a lead singer....her wonderful and recognizable stage presence, and her comfortable in the background style was a major asset and attraction to the Supremes. She remains [[Flo included) my favorite Supreme in the soprano slot.

[rod_rick]

There's nothing to argue about. If Cindy were not a good singer, how in the heck was she a member of two of the greatest girl groups in history? Berry Gordy would not have let her into his top group and kept her at Motown for approx. 10 years!

Let me add this to your post Marv if I may. Cindy was SELECTED to join the Bluebelles and the Supremes if she were not a good singer she would not have been chosen. Cindy's recording of her single Dancing Room and Ready For You along with the PTL clip is a better representation of Cindy's voice.

[marv2]

Let me add this to your post Marv if I may. Cindy was SELECTED to join the Bluebelles and the Supremes if she were not a good singer she would not have been chosen. Cindy's recording of her single Dancing Room and Ready For You along with the PTL clip is a better representation of Cindy's voice.

Thank you Rod_rick. You stated the facts better than I could.

[RanRan79]

Who said Cindy couldn't sing? Of course she could sing. Patti Labelle talks about Cindy's audition for the Bluebelles in her book. And there was no way Gordy was putting anyone in Flo Ballard's place who couldn't hold her own. IMO Cindy's natural singing talent shouldn't even be up for debate. What is debatable is whether or not Cindy was a lead singer, and IMO she was not. Some voices are blessed to bring a beauty to backup, while others are blessed to be able to carry a song. Cindy couldn't carry a song- at least not in her group days- and I think it's evident that even her producers and groupmates thought the same since every woman she has sung with has had a lead while in the group [[whether in the studio or live) except for her. [[And I'm not talking about a verse here or there, as I know Cindy was given at least that.) Sarah Dash described Cindy's singing as "monotone". That right there tells me all I need to know about how the others may have felt about Cindy taking over a whole song.

[longtimefan]

Who said Cindy couldn't sing? Of course she could sing. Patti Labelle talks about Cindy's audition for the Bluebelles in her book. And there was no way Gordy was putting anyone in Flo Ballard's place who couldn't hold her own. IMO Cindy's natural singing talent shouldn't even be up for debate. What is debatable is whether or not Cindy was a lead singer, and IMO she was not. Some voices are blessed to bring a beauty to backup, while others are blessed to be able to carry a song. Cindy couldn't carry a song- at least not in her group days- and I think it's evident that even her producers and groupmates thought the same since every woman she has sung with has had a lead while in the group [[whether in the studio or live) except for her. [[And I'm not talking about a verse here or there, as I know Cindy was given at least that.) Sarah Dash described Cindy's singing as "monotone". That right there tells me all I need to know about how the others may have felt about Cindy taking over a whole song.

Your response is right on insofar as “of course she [[Cindy) could sing.”

I am curious about the attribution of Sarah’s remark about Cindy. Sarah is a very spiritual and loving person. When was she quoted? It just doesn’t “sound like” her. Perhaps the context would be helpful. Thanks!

[luke]

I have never seen that quote documented. And Sarah and Nona and Patti were not happy with Cindy for a long time back in the day. Cindy was not going to get a lead when Diana had star billing and then she began to get some solos when Mary became de facto leader as times were changing in all groups and Cindy sure could do leads..if they let her.

[longtimefan]

I have never seen that quote documented. And Sarah and Nona and Patti were not happy with Cindy for a long time back in the day. Cindy was not going to get a lead when Diana had star billing and then she began to get some solos when Mary became de facto leader as times were changing in all groups and Cindy sure could do leads..if they let her.

Good posting, Luke. I remain curious about Sarah’s “quote.” Maybe it was when she was very young. That just doesn’t sound like Sarah’s spirit. No big deal...just curious.

[reese]

Good posting, Luke. I remain curious about Sarah’s “quote.” Maybe it was when she was very young. That just doesn’t sound like Sarah’s spirit. No big deal...just curious.

Sarah said this during a Patti documentary. There are three that I know of: one on A&E, another on BET Journeys in Black, and yet another on Lifetime Portrait. I'm not sure which one.

[longtimefan]

Sarah said this during a Patti documentary. There are three that I know of: one on A&E, another on BET Journeys in Black, and yet another on Lifetime Portrait. I'm not sure which one.

Thank you, reece!

[luke]

I have seen one or more of those documentaries and she didn’t say it in what I saw. Doesn’t sound like a real appropriate thing to say.

[midnightman]

I don't know if any of y'all have posted the song but "Can I Speak to You Before You Go to Hollywood" was partly about Cindy:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fxl9SA2caRo

From what Patti has said, it took her 15 years or so before she and Cindy talked again. Cindy mentioned on Patti's Intimate Portrait that Cindy and Patti eventually made up at a Patti performance around '84.

[midnightman]

Who said Cindy couldn't sing? Of course she could sing. Patti Labelle talks about Cindy's audition for the Bluebelles in her book. And there was no way Gordy was putting anyone in Flo Ballard's place who couldn't hold her own. IMO Cindy's natural singing talent shouldn't even be up for debate. What is debatable is whether or not Cindy was a lead singer, and IMO she was not. Some voices are blessed to bring a beauty to backup, while others are blessed to be able to carry a song. Cindy couldn't carry a song- at least not in her group days- and I think it's evident that even her producers and groupmates thought the same since every woman she has sung with has had a lead while in the group [[whether in the studio or live) except for her. [[And I'm not talking about a verse here or there, as I know Cindy was given at least that.) Sarah Dash described Cindy's singing as "monotone". That right there tells me all I need to know about how the others may have felt about Cindy taking over a whole song.

Cindy had a good voice. A very decent good one. But not enough where it was like "she can be THAT girl". I like Cindy's voice but it wasn't powerful as Patti's or identifiable as Diana's. And she accepted her place in the background.

Why is "she wasn't vocally as great as Patti" now considered a controversial thing in these parts? Supremes stuff makes us all lunatics, I guess lol

[midnightman]

Let me add this to your post Marv if I may. Cindy was SELECTED to join the Bluebelles and the Supremes if she were not a good singer she would not have been chosen. Cindy's recording of her single Dancing Room and Ready For You along with the PTL clip is a better representation of Cindy's voice.

No one said she was randomly picked lol

Patti and Cindy were HOMEGIRLS... why wouldn't she pick her to start the Bluebelles? But it was clear even from early on who the nucleus of the Bluebelles are and to this day, many are still amazed that Cindy Birdsong, known as an ex-Supreme, also sang with Patti LaBelle. Few still know that. Cindy could sing but she didn't have the lead singer voice. Simple as that. No one here doubted she could sing lol

[reese]

No one said she was randomly picked lol

Patti and Cindy were HOMEGIRLS... why wouldn't she pick her to start the Bluebelles? But it was clear even from early on who the nucleus of the Bluebelles are and to this day, many are still amazed that Cindy Birdsong, known as an ex-Supreme, also sang with Patti LaBelle. Few still know that. Cindy could sing but she didn't have the lead singer voice. Simple as that. No one here doubted she could sing lol

Cindy wasn't an original member of the group. She replaced Sundray Tucker, when Sundray's parents pulled her out of the group instead of allowing her to leave school, as the others did.

[midnightman]

Cindy wasn't an original member of the group. She replaced Sundray Tucker, when Sundray's parents pulled her out of the group instead of allowing her to leave school, as the others did.

DOH! You're right, she was. I forgot Sundray was an original member. Now that I recall, Cindy was like in her early 20s [[21-22) when Patti asked her to join after Sundray, who was around 14, had to leave because her parents wanted her at school and not on the road... think Cindy was working as a nurse or applying to be one.

[reese]

Thank you, reece!

No problem.

I pulled out my dvds and found Sarah's quote. It is in the BET JOURNEYS IN BLACK profile on Patti. She was talking about the beginnings of the group, and she said:

"Patti's voice was very clear and bell-like. Nona had sort of a husky alto. Cindy had the, not to discredit her sound in any way, but she had sort of the monotone voice. And I had a high voice."

"We were unique at the time, as four women in the industry. Because we could take songs like YOU'LL NEVER WALK ALONE and sing them. You had to have voices to sing like that."

[reese]

I don't know if any of y'all have posted the song but "Can I Speak to You Before You Go to Hollywood" was partly about Cindy:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fxl9SA2caRo

From what Patti has said, it took her 15 years or so before she and Cindy talked again. Cindy mentioned on Patti's Intimate Portrait that Cindy and Patti eventually made up at a Patti performance around '84.

I remember talking about this song to some fans at one of the Labelle reunion concerts. I thought it was obviously about Cindy, but they insisted it was about Elton John.

[longtimefan]

No problem.

I pulled out my dvds and found Sarah's quote. It is in the BET JOURNEYS IN BLACK profile on Patti. She was talking about the beginnings of the group, and she said:

"Patti's voice was very clear and bell-like. Nona had sort of a husky alto. Cindy had the, not to discredit her sound in any way, but she had sort of the monotone voice. And I had a high voice."

"We were unique at the time, as four women in the industry. Because we could take songs like YOU'LL NEVER WALK ALONE and sing them. You had to have voices to sing like that."

Thank you, reece. As I mentioned above, the context DOES make a difference. The original post simply stated that Sarah said Cindy’s “singing was monotone,” thus conveying a negative message. Please note than in the full quote, Sarah said, “not to discredit her in any way....”.

I took the time to ask and reply to this posting not in defense of Cindy [[who needs no defense), but rather to ponder Sarah’s abbreviated definition of Cindy. As I noted, that simply is not the Sarah that we know. She is kind and spiritual.

[RanRan79]

Thank you Reece for locating the information. I would never have recalled the exact documentary, remembering only that it was something done around the late 90s/early 2000s. If you hadn't, I would have been called all kinds of liars by folks around here. So I thank you for saving me from that fate.

[RanRan79]

Why is "she wasn't vocally as great as Patti" now considered a controversial thing in these parts? Supremes stuff makes us all lunatics, I guess lol

Greatness is in the ear of the beholder. But why is everything an argument around here? If someone thinks Cindy could've been one of the great divas of song, they are entitled to that opinion. It can't be debunked. Maybe she could've. I don't think she could, and it appears that some others don't either, but it's all just opinions based on what every individual hears when they listen to Cindy sing. I dig opposing view points, particularly where art, such as music, is concerned because there really is no right or wrong, just every man or woman's perspective. But you used the word "lunatic" and I think its appropriate label for some around here.

[RanRan79]

Thank you, reece. As I mentioned above, the context DOES make a difference. The original post simply stated that Sarah said Cindy’s “singing was monotone,” thus conveying a negative message. Please note than in the full quote, Sarah said, “not to discredit her in any way....”.

I took the time to ask and reply to this posting not in defense of Cindy [[who needs no defense), but rather to ponder Sarah’s abbreviated definition of Cindy. As I noted, that simply is not the Sarah that we know. She is kind and spiritual.

Correct yourself please. My post didn't convey "a negative message", you read negativity into it. At no point in my post about Cindy's lead singing capabilities was I ever negative about her or her voice. I simply stated my opinion that as talented as she was, she was not a lead singer. And then to provide sources for my opinion- other than what I think when I hear Cindy sing- I used the fact that she is the one Bluebelle and the one Supreme who didn't get a lead in the studio or on stage [[excluding the seconds long lines she was thrown in a song or two and the verse she had on "Sha La Bandit" in which she is clearly not a real focal point of the song), suggesting to me that none of the men or women who produced either group, or managed either group, thought highly of her lead singing capabilities. I also used Sarah's description of Cindy's voice as "monotone" [[unchanging in pitch; without intonation or expressiveness) to suggest that this was the view of Cindy's group members, again hypothesizing that there was a viewpoint that Cindy was incapable of tackling the lead of an entire song. If you read into that I was suggesting that Sarah thought Cindy couldn't sing or some such other negative nonsense, well I can't do anything about the way you comprehend things. I don't see how the context of Sarah's statement in full [[thanks again Reece) takes at all away from the way I used Sarah's statement in my post, nor does the entirety of what was stated or simply stating "monotone" take away from Sarah's kindness or spirituality. I agree with Sarah: listening to Cindy's voice, she does sound rather "one notish"...monotone. Although clearly Cindy has a beautiful singing voice.

[RanRan79]

I have never seen that quote documented. And Sarah and Nona and Patti were not happy with Cindy for a long time back in the day. Cindy was not going to get a lead when Diana had star billing and then she began to get some solos when Mary became de facto leader as times were changing in all groups and Cindy sure could do leads..if they let her.

But Mary got a lead when Diana had star billing, and that's my point. Gordy thought highly enough of Mary's lead singing to give her not only a featured spot in the live shows during the DRATS period, but also recording her in the studio and performing the song live on television during primetime. If Gordy had a similar view of Cindy's voice, she might have gotten one too, but she didn't. And even when Jean came in and the group was supposed to be a "group" again, Cindy still didn't get a lead to herself. So whether it was the Diana Ross show or the Jean Terrell show, nobody thought to give Cindy a song to herself. Personally I think that says a lot about the opinions regarding Cindy's lead ability.

[longtimefan]

Correct yourself please. My post didn't convey "a negative message", you read negativity into it. At no point in my post about Cindy's lead singing capabilities was I ever negative about her or her voice. I simply stated my opinion that as talented as she was, she was not a lead singer. And then to provide sources for my opinion- other than what I think when I hear Cindy sing- I used the fact that she is the one Bluebelle and the one Supreme who didn't get a lead in the studio or on stage [[excluding the seconds long lines she was thrown in a song or two and the verse she had on "Sha La Bandit" in which she is clearly not a real focal point of the song), suggesting to me that none of the men or women who produced either group, or managed either group, thought highly of her lead singing capabilities. I also used Sarah's description of Cindy's voice as "monotone" [[unchanging in pitch; without intonation or expressiveness) to suggest that this was the view of Cindy's group members, again hypothesizing that there was a viewpoint that Cindy was incapable of tackling the lead of an entire song. If you read into that I was suggesting that Sarah thought Cindy couldn't sing or some such other negative nonsense, well I can't do anything about the way you comprehend things. I don't see how the context of Sarah's statement in full [[thanks again Reece) takes at all away from the way I used Sarah's statement in my post, nor does the entirety of what was stated or simply stating "monotone" take away from Sarah's kindness or spirituality. I agree with Sarah: listening to Cindy's voice, she does sound rather "one notish"...monotone. Although clearly Cindy has a beautiful singing voice.

Sorry for the misunderstanding, RanRan. I actually complimented you on your post and thanked you. I don’t believe I said you were negative about Cindy. I actually voiced my query about Sarah’s quote, noting that without context, it did not sound like her spirit.

Here’s my post: “Your response is right on insofar as “of course she [[Cindy) could sing.” I am curious about the attribution of Sarah’s remark about Cindy. Sarah is a very spiritual and loving person. When was she quoted? It just doesn’t “sound like” her. Perhaps the context would be helpful. Thanks!”

Additionally, I later noted that “Sarah said Cindy’s singing was monotone, thus conveying a negative message.” That is not saying that your post conveyed a negative message. [[“Your response was right on.”)

Thank you for pointing out that I needed to correct myself and not present negative nonsense. I hope this helps clarify what I thought I intended.

[marv2]

DOH! You're right, she was. I forgot Sundray was an original member. Now that I recall, Cindy was like in her early 20s [[21-22) when Patti asked her to join after Sundray, who was around 14, had to leave because her parents wanted her at school and not on the road... think Cindy was working as a nurse or applying to be one.


Cindy was an original member of the Bluebelles. She was not an original member of the Ordettes, the group Patti had after Cindy's family moved back to Jersey. Cindy replaced Sundray Tucker in the Ordettes. This all was before they joined up with Nona and Sarah.

[TheMotownManiac]

I think Cindy sounds fine and like she is having a good time with good friends at a party. This wasn’t intended for Top 40.

[RanRan79]

Sorry for the misunderstanding, RanRan. I actually complimented you on your post and thanked you. I don’t believe I said you were negative about Cindy. I actually voiced my query about Sarah’s quote, noting that without context, it did not sound like her spirit.

Here’s my post: “Your response is right on insofar as “of course she [[Cindy) could sing.” I am curious about the attribution of Sarah’s remark about Cindy. Sarah is a very spiritual and loving person. When was she quoted? It just doesn’t “sound like” her. Perhaps the context would be helpful. Thanks!”

Additionally, I later noted that “Sarah said Cindy’s singing was monotone, thus conveying a negative message.” That is not saying that your post conveyed a negative message. [[“Your response was right on.”)

Thank you for pointing out that I needed to correct myself and not present negative nonsense. I hope this helps clarify what I thought I intended.

Your comment "The original post simply stated that Sarah said Cindy’s 'singing was monotone,' thus conveying a negative message" seemed to suggest that the original post- my words- were attributing something negative to Sarah's statement out of context. If that is not what you meant, then there is no problem here. But that's how I took it, that you seemed to think there was something negative in my mention of that, or that Sarah could've been negative in her mentioning of it. I want to make sure that you understand that was not my intention at all. I hope I don't have the reputation around here for taking things out of context and using them to kick up drama, the way some others do around here. And especially where sweet Cindy is concerned, I never desire to take shots at someone who it seems nobody has a bad thing to say about. So my apologizes also if I didn't comprehend your message correctly. Misunderstandings happen and I'm glad we can get back on track. Sorry again.

[gman]

Cindy's voice blends well live...the performances of the National Anthem are good examples of this....as far as leads go, her part in ALL I WANT was great....she rode the word packed lyrics well....and I like her part in Sha La Bandit too, That was a great 3 part lead. Her voice might not stand out as an individual voice when combined [[like Flo's) , but it did give a nice gentle top to the backgrounds. And her performance of the Gospel song featured earlier in this thread is wonderful. Her lead voice developed enough by that time to warrant notice.

[sup_fan]

But Mary got a lead when Diana had star billing, and that's my point. Gordy thought highly enough of Mary's lead singing to give her not only a featured spot in the live shows during the DRATS period, but also recording her in the studio and performing the song live on television during primetime. If Gordy had a similar view of Cindy's voice, she might have gotten one too, but she didn't. And even when Jean came in and the group was supposed to be a "group" again, Cindy still didn't get a lead to herself. So whether it was the Diana Ross show or the Jean Terrell show, nobody thought to give Cindy a song to herself. Personally I think that says a lot about the opinions regarding Cindy's lead ability.

yes and no

when Cindy joined in mid 67, I believe everyone was thinking it was sort of trial period. I'm not sure if her royalties kicked in after a probation period or not. and they were trying to keep things low key. But mid 68, they were turning 100% of focus to Diana, as we know. I feel the little bit of solo work mary got was just sort of bones thrown her way. it's really just 1 spotlight on occasion, except the farewell set.

I do agree with your thoughts in the case of Mrs Robinson in TCB and that's how it was originally taped. but then for the broadcast D and C sang the line together!! odd!! it was about hardly 10 words

when Jean came on, it did shift and quite a bit. both M and C get the trade off lines in Ladder, in the live version of Everybody, both M and C have a lead line. In the Brother Love medley from Tom Jones, M and C have lines. In the recording of Bridge over Troubled Water all three share lead. In Something on Tom Campbell, Cindy actually had the echo call outs, not mary. Another shared lead on Flip Wilson and in live shows with Love the One You're With. And if you listen to the bootlegs of concerts, she had more speaking parts.

now it is still definitely the 3rd position in the group during the Jean years. but a much larger third position than DRATS

[marv2]

yes and no

when Cindy joined in mid 67, I believe everyone was thinking it was sort of trial period. I'm not sure if her royalties kicked in after a probation period or not. and they were trying to keep things low key. But mid 68, they were turning 100% of focus to Diana, as we know. I feel the little bit of solo work mary got was just sort of bones thrown her way. it's really just 1 spotlight on occasion, except the farewell set.

I do agree with your thoughts in the case of Mrs Robinson in TCB and that's how it was originally taped. but then for the broadcast D and C sang the line together!! odd!! it was about hardly 10 words

when Jean came on, it did shift and quite a bit. both M and C get the trade off lines in Ladder, in the live version of Everybody, both M and C have a lead line. In the Brother Love medley from Tom Jones, M and C have lines. In the recording of Bridge over Troubled Water all three share lead. In Something on Tom Campbell, Cindy actually had the echo call outs, not mary. Another shared lead on Flip Wilson and in live shows with Love the One You're With. And if you listen to the bootlegs of concerts, she had more speaking parts.

now it is still definitely the 3rd position in the group during the Jean years. but a much larger third position than DRATS

Cindy does a great job on the Supremes version of "Love Train" in concerts.

[sup_fan]

Cindy was an excellent 2nd soprano. Typically that's the middle voice and rarely does it carry the melody. I think the JMC lineup and even the MCS lineup worked better, vocally and harmonically, than the DMC lineup. both D and C have ranges better suited for the middle than the top. S and J have higher voices and can carry those pitches better.

Cindy brought a sexiness. I think she really did sort of provide a Marilyn Monroe element. she was voluptuous, had those bedroom eyes, a bit of breathy-ness to her tone. combine this with M's firecracker personality and then Diana's razzmatazz and it's a strong combo.

Jean always strikes me as a bit of either on or off. not vocally cuz she was ALWAYS on there. but personality. sometimes she has this cute, slightly shy persona but still came across as the lead singer. other times she seems really awkward, nervous and a bit withdrawn. when she was on and combined with Mary firecracker and sexy Cindy, it's very powerful

I adore Cindy's lead lines in Bridge Over Troubled Water. it's beautifully soft, warm and sincere. In something like Auto Sunshine where she does a few of the ad libs like Hey and Baby, her tone and sexiness comes through. even in something so simple.

[luke]

Very good analysis sup. When I saw JMC in Atlantic City, Cindy came out first on EGTRTL and sang the entire first verse and chorus, then Mary came out and sang the next and then Jean came out...

[sup_fan]

oh that's right Marv. I haven't listened to the MSC Love Train in quite a while. forgot about that one. And of course there's the All I Want tv clip, the shared and group leads on Sha La and Give Out. the Dream sequence

question to the group on He's My Man

on the Dinah show where they're in the purple sequin tops and lip syncing, as they get towards the end [[after the bridge), they each seem to take a line. Looks like Cindy is singing the second line of "Being in his arms..." And they seem to do this on the Tonight Show too.

is that how it's recorded? did each do a little line?

[sup_fan]

I always wished they did Bridge Over Troubled Water live in their show, sharing the leads. I like the lp version but it's rather overproduced. sooooooo much going on.

I know that this wasn't exactly the style then but I think if they did it very acoustic. Maybe it's a point in the show where the dim the lights. the girls could either stand in a line or maybe gracefully sit on stools. just simple spots on them and only a minimal band. guitar, maybe just a little drum and bass. at least to start. really show off their beautiful leads and 3-part harmony. then after the bridge, they could bring up the volume and all.

[RanRan79]

yes and no

when Cindy joined in mid 67, I believe everyone was thinking it was sort of trial period. I'm not sure if her royalties kicked in after a probation period or not. and they were trying to keep things low key. But mid 68, they were turning 100% of focus to Diana, as we know. I feel the little bit of solo work mary got was just sort of bones thrown her way. it's really just 1 spotlight on occasion, except the farewell set.

I do agree with your thoughts in the case of Mrs Robinson in TCB and that's how it was originally taped. but then for the broadcast D and C sang the line together!! odd!! it was about hardly 10 words

when Jean came on, it did shift and quite a bit. both M and C get the trade off lines in Ladder, in the live version of Everybody, both M and C have a lead line. In the Brother Love medley from Tom Jones, M and C have lines. In the recording of Bridge over Troubled Water all three share lead. In Something on Tom Campbell, Cindy actually had the echo call outs, not mary. Another shared lead on Flip Wilson and in live shows with Love the One You're With. And if you listen to the bootlegs of concerts, she had more speaking parts.

now it is still definitely the 3rd position in the group during the Jean years. but a much larger third position than DRATS

I have to go here Sup: yes and no.:p

When Cindy joined the Supremes in July 1967, no one thought it was a trial period. Cindy's "trial basis" was in April 1967 and I've maintained that had it not been for Cindy being under contract to Atlantic and the Bluebelles, Flo would have never been brought back. Luckily for Florence- and Supremes fans- Cindy could not legally become a Supreme until Gordy took care of the legal break from her other record label and group. This allowed Florence back in until she was out again. By the time of the official firing in July, Cindy was good to go and she stepped into Flo's shoes for what I'm sure Gordy and company thought would be the duration of Diana's time with the group. Florence was never coming back and everyone [[in the Supremes camp) knew it.

[[I sometimes wonder though, what would Gordy have done with Cindy if Florence had come back from the brief "firing" in April and cleaned up her act, not giving Gordy a reason to fire her again? Perhaps Cindy would've become a Marvelette when Gladys left? [[I don't know when Gladys left exactly.) Or maybe she would've eventually ended up replacing Roz in the Vandellas? Just something to ponder.)

As for Mary, of course she got thrown a bone, but she never would've gotten that if she wasn't viewed as someone who could carry the lead of a song. These were Gordy's precious Supremes. He didn't do anything unless he thought it was beneficial to the group, bone or no bone.

During the 70s, Cindy got a bit more lead work, but never a whole song. And IMO Cindy was a great background singer and she was a good enough lead singer to do a few lead lines or even given a verse here or there. But I keep going back to this: it seems like no one thought she was capable of carrying a whole song to herself, and so she didn't. Clearly by the time she performed "My Tribute [[To God Be the Glory)", she seemed to have found the type of song [[and arrangement) that showed off the beauty of her voice so well. But could she have tackled any of the Supremes stuff as well as the Supreme [[any Supreme) who sang lead on any particular song? I don't think so and again my suspicion is that the producers and Bluebelles/Supremes didn't either.

[RanRan79]

Cindy does a great job on the Supremes version of "Love Train" in concerts.

My favorite "lead" Cindy moment is when she's belting her part on "Let the Sunshine In" at the Farewell show. She showed she had some lungs.

[RanRan79]

Cindy was an excellent 2nd soprano. Typically that's the middle voice and rarely does it carry the melody. I think the JMC lineup and even the MCS lineup worked better, vocally and harmonically, than the DMC lineup. both D and C have ranges better suited for the middle than the top. S and J have higher voices and can carry those pitches better.

Cindy brought a sexiness. I think she really did sort of provide a Marilyn Monroe element. she was voluptuous, had those bedroom eyes, a bit of breathy-ness to her tone. combine this with M's firecracker personality and then Diana's razzmatazz and it's a strong combo.

Jean always strikes me as a bit of either on or off. not vocally cuz she was ALWAYS on there. but personality. sometimes she has this cute, slightly shy persona but still came across as the lead singer. other times she seems really awkward, nervous and a bit withdrawn. when she was on and combined with Mary firecracker and sexy Cindy, it's very powerful

I adore Cindy's lead lines in Bridge Over Troubled Water. it's beautifully soft, warm and sincere. In something like Auto Sunshine where she does a few of the ad libs like Hey and Baby, her tone and sexiness comes through. even in something so simple.

I agree with most of this. Cindy was a grown, sexy woman, which I think worked well with ushering the Supremes into a more mature period. The Supremes when Flo was on her way out was certainly not the Supremes of the TAMI Show or that first appearance on Ed Sullivan, but even becoming more glitzy and glamorous, they still came across as "the girls". With Cindy in, the group seems to mature overnight. DRATS was definitely a different show than the Supremes had been. Cindy was a better dancer than Florence, which worked well with the increasingly more elaborate group routines the ladies were doing now. She was physically a beautiful woman. A great replacement for the great Flo Ballard.

[RanRan79]

I always wished they did Bridge Over Troubled Water live in their show, sharing the leads. I like the lp version but it's rather overproduced. sooooooo much going on.

I know that this wasn't exactly the style then but I think if they did it very acoustic. Maybe it's a point in the show where the dim the lights. the girls could either stand in a line or maybe gracefully sit on stools. just simple spots on them and only a minimal band. guitar, maybe just a little drum and bass. at least to start. really show off their beautiful leads and 3-part harmony. then after the bridge, they could bring up the volume and all.

I absolutely hate the Supremes' version, but an acoustic live version would have probably worked very well. Jean, Mary and Cindy had a real nice blend that I like.

[luke]

I don’t think Cindy had any solo lines on recorded Version of He’s My Man.

[sup_fan]

hahaha Ran - we seem to disagree on almost everything lol

I like their BOTW but agree it's heavy handed. but then again, so is the entire album. that's a crapload going on in Stoned Love, Time to Break Down, Together we can make, etc. So while not my fav rendition of the song, I do like and think it fits the mood of the lp. the production flows with the rest of the tracks and it echos the "higher ideal about mankind" theme that the girls were working with at this time

I don't know that Cindy was actually on probation but I thought I remember previous posts saying that starting with Cindy, each new member was on a period where they were salaried. some period of time before they began earning royalties. Also if the public had not accepted Cindy, I'm guessing Diana's solo debut would have been moved up considerably. I doubt they would have tried another 3rd singer.

I do agree with your comments about the change in the persona of the group. yes with DMF it's like these were your sisters. girls living a glamorous life and still accessible. by the time of DRATS they were STARS!! they were women now

[sup_fan]

I also agree that Cindy never really got a whole song of her own until the Dream Sequence. and so they never really looked for a song for her that truly suited her ability and style. out of all of the MJC lps, I think the Floy Joy set was the best suited to her. perhaps she could have done full lead on Wisdom of Time or another song that was soft.

I do think the duet approach between M and J is a bit odd. two women singing together reminds me more of Lilith Fair or Indigo Girls lolol. I would have preferred more 3 part leads. even if cindy got the lesser amount. Giving her a line or some parts would have added some magic to FJ, Touch, and others. I don't really count her minimal lead lines in the conclusion of Touch.

[midnightman]

yes and no

when Cindy joined in mid 67, I believe everyone was thinking it was sort of trial period. I'm not sure if her royalties kicked in after a probation period or not. and they were trying to keep things low key. But mid 68, they were turning 100% of focus to Diana, as we know. I feel the little bit of solo work mary got was just sort of bones thrown her way. it's really just 1 spotlight on occasion, except the farewell set.

I do agree with your thoughts in the case of Mrs Robinson in TCB and that's how it was originally taped. but then for the broadcast D and C sang the line together!! odd!! it was about hardly 10 words

when Jean came on, it did shift and quite a bit. both M and C get the trade off lines in Ladder, in the live version of Everybody, both M and C have a lead line. In the Brother Love medley from Tom Jones, M and C have lines. In the recording of Bridge over Troubled Water all three share lead. In Something on Tom Campbell, Cindy actually had the echo call outs, not mary. Another shared lead on Flip Wilson and in live shows with Love the One You're With. And if you listen to the bootlegs of concerts, she had more speaking parts.

now it is still definitely the 3rd position in the group during the Jean years. but a much larger third position than DRATS

That was not a trial period. Motown was being sneaky about it... Diana and Mary didn't know Flo was gonna leave and Patti, Nona and Sarah were under the impression Cindy was still gonna be a member.

So both sets were equally shocked. No it wasn't a trial period. FLO thought when she returned that May [[after Cindy did some performance dates), that it was a trial period and only after her birthday party [[and before the performance that fateful July) did she realize she was gonna be permanently replaced and that's why she did what she did.

If it was a trial period, Flo wouldn't have done what she did. I guarantee it! I had to defend my girl Flo for a minute lol

[midnightman]

Cindy was an original member of the Bluebelles. She was not an original member of the Ordettes, the group Patti had after Cindy's family moved back to Jersey. Cindy replaced Sundray Tucker in the Ordettes. This all was before they joined up with Nona and Sarah.

I need to buy Patti's book then. That'll give me a good idea of what happened with which but Sundray wasn't an original Ordette either. The original Ordettes were Patti, Jean Brown, Yvonne Hogen and Johnnie Dawson. Sundray replaced Dawson and then when the other two [[Brown and Hogen) left, Nona and Sarah came. The Ordettes just simply changed their name to the Bluebelles.

[marv2]

I need to buy Patti's book then. That'll give me a good idea of what happened with which but Sundray wasn't an original Ordette either. The original Ordettes were Patti, Jean Brown, Yvonne Hogen and Johnnie Dawson. Sundray replaced Dawson and then when the other two [[Brown and Hogen) left, Nona and Sarah came. The Ordettes just simply changed their name to the Bluebelles.

Jean Brown went to my church when I lived in Philly.

[sup_fan]

it is an interesting question about the Flo/Cindy situation. If Flo had not rebelled in Vegas, would she have stayed? or was it just a matter of time? was gordy done and ready to move on?

Given her problems, I wonder if she could have handle things through 70. assuming everything that happened in the DRATS would occur, I think she would have snapped. the issue of being totally looked over regarding Love Child, the chaos behind TCB and all, the continuing diminishing of the girls' role, etc.

[midnightman]

it is an interesting question about the Flo/Cindy situation. If Flo had not rebelled in Vegas, would she have stayed? or was it just a matter of time? was gordy done and ready to move on?

Given her problems, I wonder if she could have handle things through 70. assuming everything that happened in the DRATS would occur, I think she would have snapped. the issue of being totally looked over regarding Love Child, the chaos behind TCB and all, the continuing diminishing of the girls' role, etc.

I mean I do think she would've eventually exploded had it not been for Vegas but I think she was through. Berry wasn't trying to hear her and she was pissed at Diana and [[especially) Mary for not standing up for her enough.

But I think she was suffering from serious depression and alcohol was only messing her up even more. It's hard though. Maybe it was fate? I wish it wasn't. God, what a woman. RIP Flo. But when Cindy did join, she did what she had to do and I commend her for being a Supreme as long as she did and having fun with it [[as she seems to be having fun with that song posted).

[marv2]

it is an interesting question about the Flo/Cindy situation. If Flo had not rebelled in Vegas, would she have stayed? or was it just a matter of time? was gordy done and ready to move on?

Given her problems, I wonder if she could have handle things through 70. assuming everything that happened in the DRATS would occur, I think she would have snapped. the issue of being totally looked over regarding Love Child, the chaos behind TCB and all, the continuing diminishing of the girls' role, etc.

Flo would not have stood for the "plans' Mr. Gordy had for Diane while using the Supremes as a springboard. There is no way!

[Roberta75]

Flo would not have stood for the "plans' Mr. Gordy had for Diane while using the Supremes as a springboard. There is no way!

Flo told this?

[midnightman]

None of us were there to see what was going on but it's clear all Flo wanted was to return to what the Supremes used to be and when she realized it wasn't, she lashed out. THAT much is true.

[RanRan79]

hahaha Ran - we seem to disagree on almost everything lol


That's alright Sup. We're just exchanging ideas and different perspectives. I enjoy reading your thoughts, among others like Midnight and a bunch of the others. I love that we can share our difference of opinion [[barring any misunderstandings) and still remain respectful.

[RanRan79]

That was not a trial period. Motown was being sneaky about it... Diana and Mary didn't know Flo was gonna leave and Patti, Nona and Sarah were under the impression Cindy was still gonna be a member.

So both sets were equally shocked. No it wasn't a trial period. FLO thought when she returned that May [[after Cindy did some performance dates), that it was a trial period and only after her birthday party [[and before the performance that fateful July) did she realize she was gonna be permanently replaced and that's why she did what she did.

If it was a trial period, Flo wouldn't have done what she did. I guarantee it! I had to defend my girl Flo for a minute lol

Diana and Mary agreed on Flo leaving. They knew Gordy wanted her out and they approved that message. Flo said at a certain point she was aware that Cindy Birdsong was hanging around the camp, studying her. Flo was no dummy, she knew what Gordy was working toward. I think that's what caused her to lash out. My hypothesis is that Gordy would have never gotten rid of Flo if she had cleaned up her act and kept it up. As much of a dick as he was, getting rid of Florence was a last resort because she was a popular member of the group. Cindy was an insurance policy. It's unfortunate for Flo that she allowed Gordy a reason to use it.

But there was no shock on Diana and Mary's part. They were as guilty as Gordy was in kicking Florence out.

[RanRan79]

I mean I do think she would've eventually exploded had it not been for Vegas but I think she was through. Berry wasn't trying to hear her and she was pissed at Diana and [[especially) Mary for not standing up for her enough.

But I think she was suffering from serious depression and alcohol was only messing her up even more. It's hard though. Maybe it was fate? I wish it wasn't. God, what a woman. RIP Flo. But when Cindy did join, she did what she had to do and I commend her for being a Supreme as long as she did and having fun with it [[as she seems to be having fun with that song posted).

Florence had some serious mental issues that were exacerbated by the situation she was in. She was a young woman who did not yet have the knowledge to use the tools she would have needed [[like keeping a level head) to cope with what was going on in the group. In a perfect world, Diana and Mary would have rallied around Florence, telling Gordy to back off and ease up a bit. Unfortunately both women were in their own worlds, looking after their own self interests, and were very young themselves, lacking some of the tools needed to successfully deal with their issues. What happened to Florence is life. She took some hits, got knocked down, got back up again, got knocked down again, got back up and unfortunately died so young. Both Diana and Mary and Berry and RanRan79 and Midnightman and Sup fan, etc., have taken our fair share of hits and gotten back up. Luckily for us [[hopefully) our stories aren't cut off so quickly. Diana and Mary have lived long lives full of more successes than punches at this point. Had Florence lived I think we'd say the same about her. What happened in the Supremes and her welfare years would only be a blip in her story.

[RanRan79]

Flo would not have stood for the "plans' Mr. Gordy had for Diane while using the Supremes as a springboard. There is no way!

She said she told Gordy she wouldn't stand in Diana's way but she wouldn't leave the group. Flo didn't want to be a member of Diana Ross' Supremes, but I think if Gordy had been more man than asshole he could have gotten Florence on board, especially if she were to have the chance to step into the lead singer role after Diana left.

[RanRan79]

None of us were there to see what was going on but it's clear all Flo wanted was to return to what the Supremes used to be and when she realized it wasn't, she lashed out. THAT much is true.

After she left, when asked if she would return to the group, she said if she ever did the name would have to go back to just the Supremes. So yeah, it's a safe bet that she wasn't feeling the changes.

[reese]

I need to buy Patti's book then. That'll give me a good idea of what happened with which but Sundray wasn't an original Ordette either. The original Ordettes were Patti, Jean Brown, Yvonne Hogen and Johnnie Dawson. Sundray replaced Dawson and then when the other two [[Brown and Hogen) left, Nona and Sarah came. The Ordettes just simply changed their name to the Bluebelles.

There have been some old articles and books that said Patti and Cindy sang together in the Ordettes before merging with Nona and Sarah who were with the Del Capris. But that's not the way Patti tells it. She wrote that Cindy came in to audition for the spot vacated by Sundray, singing IT COULD HAPPEN TO YOU. Patti, Nona, and Sarah, as well as their manager Bernard Montague were impressed and that's how she joined the group.

Not long after that, Harold Robinson produced a record on the Starlets under the name "the Bluebelles": I SOLD MY HEART TO THE JUNKMAN. However, the Starlets were under contract to another label. Once JUNKMAN began hitting, Robinson needed a girl group to promote the record. Patti, Nona, Cindy, and Sarah came in, and Robinson felt Patti was "too dark and too plain," in her words. But when she sang, he changed his mind, even later renaming her Patti LaBelle, French for "the beautiful." At that point, the girls became the Bluebelles.

JUNKMAN became a Top 20 pop hit that the girls didn't even record [[although they later did their own version on their first album). Patti's name was added to the billing once the girls found out there was already another Bluebelles in the performers' union.

[marv2]

There have been some old articles and books that said Patti and Cindy sang together in the Ordettes before merging with Nona and Sarah who were with the Del Capris. But that's not the way Patti tells it. She wrote that Cindy came in to audition for the spot vacated by Sundray, singing IT COULD HAPPEN TO YOU. Patti, Nona, and Sarah, as well as their manager Bernard Montague were impressed and that's how she joined the group.

Not long after that, Harold Robinson produced a record on the Starlets under the name "the Bluebelles": I SOLD MY HEART TO THE JUNKMAN. However, the Starlets were under contract to another label. Once JUNKMAN began hitting, Robinson needed a girl group to promote the record. Patti, Nona, Cindy, and Sarah came in, and Robinson felt Patti was "too dark and too plain," in her words. But when she sang, he changed his mind, even later renaming her Patti LaBelle, French for "the beautiful." At that point, the girls became the Bluebelles.

JUNKMAN became a Top 20 pop hit that the girls didn't even record [[although they later did their own version on their first album). Patti's name was added to the billing once the girls found out there was already another Bluebelles in the performers' union.

I remember I won a radio contest years ago when I gave the answer to a question "I Sold My Heart to the Junkman"! I forgot was now. I know it was tickets to something.

[luke]

I thought the Starlets were recorded in Chicago and Robinson was sued for saying it was the Bluebelles

[waynesville]

Slightly surprised that no-one on this thread has mentioned Cindy's gorgeous spoken part on The Wisdom Of Time..,

[sup_fan]

Slightly surprised that no-one on this thread has mentioned Cindy's gorgeous spoken part on The Wisdom Of Time..,

I've thought Cindy could have handled the full lead on this tune

[sup_fan]

Diana and Mary agreed on Flo leaving. They knew Gordy wanted her out and they approved that message. Flo said at a certain point she was aware that Cindy Birdsong was hanging around the camp, studying her. Flo was no dummy, she knew what Gordy was working toward. I think that's what caused her to lash out. My hypothesis is that Gordy would have never gotten rid of Flo if she had cleaned up her act and kept it up. As much of a dick as he was, getting rid of Florence was a last resort because she was a popular member of the group. Cindy was an insurance policy. It's unfortunate for Flo that she allowed Gordy a reason to use it.

But there was no shock on Diana and Mary's part. They were as guilty as Gordy was in kicking Florence out.

sure they agreed but at that point in the situation, they really didn't have any other choice. Flo was ruining it for everyone. Both M and D were under the same stresses as Flo - they had to constantly be on the road, constantly rehearsing, constantly meeting press and public. and they still managed to get on the stage for performances, show up for interviews, be on time for rehearsals and recordings. Both women have said how insanely stressful this period was. they were working like dogs and Flo wasn't really being asked to do anything more than they were.

There have been stories from Cholly posts on here about HIS viewpoint of the matter. he stated that both girls loved Flo and really tried to help her. they didn't want her out of the group and didn't act subversively to maliciously oust her. For a long while they really tried to cover for her. But then at some point they had to start thinking about themselves. they'd worked so hard and why should they throw it away just because Flo couldn't [[or wouldn't) get it together. they were kids so it's somewhat understandable that they didn't think to get her some psychological care. that's an obvious solution today but not in 65 and 66.

M and D were put in a position of either allowing their career to be limited and potentially ended by Flo's behavior or saying ok - enough here. either step up or step out. I think they chose the right answer

[midnightman]

Slightly surprised that no-one on this thread has mentioned Cindy's gorgeous spoken part on The Wisdom Of Time..,

I wonder what would've happened had she been allowed to sing lead on it? Might've been really good... [[I say the same thing about Marvin doing the intro to Harvey & the Moonglows' song, Twelve Months of the Year, and being allowed full lead on that; both songs missed opportunities for both).

[midnightman]

sure they agreed but at that point in the situation, they really didn't have any other choice. Flo was ruining it for everyone. Both M and D were under the same stresses as Flo - they had to constantly be on the road, constantly rehearsing, constantly meeting press and public. and they still managed to get on the stage for performances, show up for interviews, be on time for rehearsals and recordings. Both women have said how insanely stressful this period was. they were working like dogs and Flo wasn't really being asked to do anything more than they were.

There have been stories from Cholly posts on here about HIS viewpoint of the matter. he stated that both girls loved Flo and really tried to help her. they didn't want her out of the group and didn't act subversively to maliciously oust her. For a long while they really tried to cover for her. But then at some point they had to start thinking about themselves. they'd worked so hard and why should they throw it away just because Flo couldn't [[or wouldn't) get it together. they were kids so it's somewhat understandable that they didn't think to get her some psychological care. that's an obvious solution today but not in 65 and 66.

M and D were put in a position of either allowing their career to be limited and potentially ended by Flo's behavior or saying ok - enough here. either step up or step out. I think they chose the right answer

I have to sadly agree with this. It's a complex thing. But yeah, Mary & Diana eventually both realized covering for Flo would've been hurting what they had accomplished. Flo's demons took over after 1966. :[[

[luke]

Flo was also treated very badly. Let’s not forget that.

[marv2]

sure they agreed but at that point in the situation, they really didn't have any other choice. Flo was ruining it for everyone. Both M and D were under the same stresses as Flo - they had to constantly be on the road, constantly rehearsing, constantly meeting press and public. and they still managed to get on the stage for performances, show up for interviews, be on time for rehearsals and recordings. Both women have said how insanely stressful this period was. they were working like dogs and Flo wasn't really being asked to do anything more than they were.

There have been stories from Cholly posts on here about HIS viewpoint of the matter. he stated that both girls loved Flo and really tried to help her. they didn't want her out of the group and didn't act subversively to maliciously oust her. For a long while they really tried to cover for her. But then at some point they had to start thinking about themselves. they'd worked so hard and why should they throw it away just because Flo couldn't [[or wouldn't) get it together. they were kids so it's somewhat understandable that they didn't think to get her some psychological care. that's an obvious solution today but not in 65 and 66.

M and D were put in a position of either allowing their career to be limited and potentially ended by Flo's behavior or saying ok - enough here. either step up or step out. I think they chose the right answer


I am sorry but this is not true. It has been documented by those who were eyewitness to many of the events that occurred with Florence that Diana Ross routinely called Mr. Gordy from the road to inform him of Florence's drinking and anything else she did not like or approve of. She, along with Mr. Gordy were constantly complaining to Florence about being overweight when she was actually a normal size for a grown woman. Those are just two things they used against her. The failure to have had counseling and treatment for the rape did not help matters either.

[marv2]

Flo was also treated very badly. Let’s not forget that.

Exactly! There were instances where she was not even told when and where they would be interviewed or when important meetings were held. According to Mabel John who was there at the very beginning and who the Primettes/early Supremes provided background for, that Mary and Florence loved Diane but that she also knew that they hated her as well for the way she treated them! You have to tell the whole story.

[honest man]

I am sorry but this is not true. It has been documented by those who were eyewitness to many of the events that occurred with Florence that Diana Ross routinely called Mr. Gordy from the road to inform him of Florence's drinking and anything else she did not like or approve of. She, along with Mr. Gordy were constantly complaining to Florence about being overweight when she was actually a normal size for a grown woman. Those are just two things they used against her. The failure to have had counseling and treatment for the rape did not help matters either.YES AND SHE WAS RIGHT TO DO SO,THE BACKGROUND SINGER WAS RUINING IT FOR THEM,AND MOTOWN Berry Gordy done well to keep her as long as he did,she thought she was untouchable,and he had to let her know he was the boss and she was an employee like the rest of his staff,jesus why do we keep talking same shit every few months on here,crap.

[honest man]

Flo would not have stood for the "plans' Mr. Gordy had for Diane while using the Supremes as a springboard. There is no way!OMG how many times do you have to be told,that was part of the reason she was sacked along with bad behaviour,being pissed.lazy etc she had it coming to her especially throwing ale over her boss deserves to be sacked in itself,lastly she was a background singer and there was a queue from NY To Memphis ready to step in her shoes,no sympathy whatsoever she was trouble,and had to go.get the message,finally.

[honest man]

Back to subject Cindy was-is my fave background singer out of all Supremes incarnations,love her ,she was a perfect choice.cheers,

[sup_fan]

I am sorry but this is not true. It has been documented by those who were eyewitness to many of the events that occurred with Florence that Diana Ross routinely called Mr. Gordy from the road to inform him of Florence's drinking and anything else she did not like or approve of. She, along with Mr. Gordy were constantly complaining to Florence about being overweight when she was actually a normal size for a grown woman. Those are just two things they used against her. The failure to have had counseling and treatment for the rape did not help matters either.

I'm not saying that Diana [[and even mary) didn't have some culpability in all of this. of course they did. And yes, Diana had a uniquely close relationship with Berry and so the two of them were in constant communication. But there have been posts on here from people that interviewed and knew Cholly, Gil and others that were part of the organization. they clearly state that Diana was not conspiring against Flo, that both M and D were upset with how the situation was deteriorating and tried best the could to correct things. maybe Diana came to the conclusion ahead of Mary of "ok - let's either fix this or move on"

[luke]

And she was reminded she didn’t graduate from high school and criticized for being lazy when she had pneumonia.

[marv2]

And she was reminded she didn’t graduate from high school and criticized for being lazy when she had pneumonia.

I remember that too. She was always being threaten that she was going to be "exposed".

[RanRan79]

Midnight, do your damn job and get everybody back on topic.:p It's becoming another episode of that tired ass show The Supremes Wars. Even a troll has surfaced. Good grief.

[sup_fan]

Midnight, do your damn job and get everybody back on topic.:p It's becoming another episode of that tired ass show The Supremes Wars. Even a troll has surfaced. Good grief.

lololol!! exactly

Well the topic was Cindy and her Boat Floating Down Stream. I think we've pretty well addressed that topic lol:

1. the song, regardless of who sings it, sort of sucks lol
2. this was recorded via a karaoke machine at Randy's house so it's not necessarily an accurate portrayal of Cindy's singing capabilities.
3. During Cindy's years with the Sups, she had limited lead vocal exposure. especially in the DRATS era. but as the 70s progressed, her role within the group expanded

;)

[marv2]

I am not sorry I started this thread. I have people on ignore that have been there going on 2 years so they do not exist anymore to me on this forum.

[RanRan79]

I am not sorry I started this thread. I have people on ignore that have been there going on 2 years so they do not exist anymore to me on this forum.

You did a good thing starting the thread, that's not the problem. The problem is that its veered off into nonsense. Time to steer it back in place. Sup fan has summed the important stuff up in the post above yours. Cindy Birdsong has certainly blessed us with her talents over the years. Hope she's doing well.

[midnightman]

Wasn't she suffering health wise a while back? I know there was a post somewhere saying "pray for Cindy" or something like that. :/

But I hope for her sake that she's okay. :[[

[midnightman]

Midnight, do your damn job and get everybody back on topic.:p It's becoming another episode of that tired ass show The Supremes Wars. Even a troll has surfaced. Good grief.

LOL alright alright. I will. :)

Let's go back on the song, folks. PRONTO! :p

But I agree, let's all go back on topic... or at least keep it on Cindy at least if we go a bit "off topic"...

[TheMotownManiac]

Flo would not have stood for the "plans' Mr. Gordy had for Diane while using the Supremes as a springboard. There is no way!

Flo had no choice about it if she wanted to stay in the group. Nor Mary. It was what it was and it worked out perfectly. Diana’s stardom and star power fueled the group to its heights - especially impressive considering some of the crappy records they had after HDH split. All of their best TV work was after Flo split. Ross left the group with a platinum single, tons of press and in the hands of top producer Frank Wilson. Gil did their act, Cholly worked them, everything was in place as good as could be. Mary wanted a new start and got one. There was no reason not to do what Berry did. He’s been vilified for dumping JMC - but he can’t be blamed for not wanting to work with Jean. Flo wasn’t well enough to remain in the group no matter how it was billed. It’s sad, because she was so wonderful, but, not essential as it turned out.

[daviddh]

just a few points, the Mamas and Papas fired Michelle from the group and replaced her, and when the group went on tour the fans did not receive her replacement well and the tour was a disaster. soon Michelle was back.
BG knew this and with the possible departure of FB, he knew that the Supremes could suffer a similar backlash.
also in 1967, Reflections was going to be the last supremes single. the drama had gone one for to long and now Florence was out. the original plan was to bring Flo back and do a farewell tour , thus the double Greatest hits album sept 67 which was going to include Reflections,.. but was at the last minute replaced with another HDH song.
what ever went wrong ,Flo was not coming back and the farewell tour idea ditched but Motown had little faith that the supremes could overcome their double loss of FB and now HDH. Ross decided to stay to fulfill her contract out of loyalty possibly to MW, and perhaps by this time Cindy may have earned her stripes and the group reborn as DRATS.
I am not a fan of the cindy track. it doesn't fit her.

[jim aka jtigre99]

Cindy's voice blended very well with Mary in the background and they had beautiful harmony with Jean and, especially, Scherrie. This song was just Cindy singing in Randy's Living room with some friends. A singer would sing quite differently in that situation as opposed to being in the studio or a concert. The song was much better suited for Mary's vocals even if Cindy had recorded an actual lead performance. I, for one, love all of her contributions as a Supreme. She managed a perfect visual and harmonic background blend with Mary. During her time with the group, Mary was a much stronger lead singer [[IN MY OPINION) than Cindy was. Still, this was just some friends singing a song at home and not a professional recording where someone would use their voice to its fullest advantage. It was nice enough, though, just like Cindy.

[RanRan79]

just a few points, the Mamas and Papas fired Michelle from the group and replaced her, and when the group went on tour the fans did not receive her replacement well and the tour was a disaster. soon Michelle was back.
BG knew this and with the possible departure of FB, he knew that the Supremes could suffer a similar backlash.
also in 1967, Reflections was going to be the last supremes single. the drama had gone one for to long and now Florence was out. the original plan was to bring Flo back and do a farewell tour , thus the double Greatest hits album sept 67 which was going to include Reflections,.. but was at the last minute replaced with another HDH song.
what ever went wrong ,Flo was not coming back and the farewell tour idea ditched but Motown had little faith that the supremes could overcome their double loss of FB and now HDH. Ross decided to stay to fulfill her contract out of loyalty possibly to MW, and perhaps by this time Cindy may have earned her stripes and the group reborn as DRATS.
I am not a fan of the cindy track. it doesn't fit her.

David, can you source this information? In all my Supremes "research" your scenario here is the first I've heard of it. Thanks.

[daviddh]

the Mamas and Papas info is from their own documentary video. the info on the Supremes Greatest Hits info was released in the reissue of GOLD cd a few years ago. I think. I am fairly sure Reflections was replaced with Standing At the Crossroads Of Love.
there was no plans originally of a Reflections lp as the Greatest Hits lp was released instead but perhaps if Florence had stayed ,....but then the lp was released in march 1968. but with Cindy on the cover art.
also in the Motown 40 special they talk about the Supremes break up with Florence and discuss that Motown felt the supremes would never recover the loss Of HDH and they felt BG was concerned regarding the departure of Ballard.
the management of Motown felt the Supremes were done. the plan was to do a farewell tour. as time went on Cindy apparently fit in and Ross stayed to complete her contract out with the group, but you can see the changed from 1968 forward with Diana even more out front vocally

[sup_fan]

the Mamas and Papas info is from their own documentary video. the info on the Supremes Greatest Hits info was released in the reissue of GOLD cd a few years ago. I think. I am fairly sure Reflections was replaced with Standing At the Crossroads Of Love.
there was no plans originally of a Reflections lp as the Greatest Hits lp was released instead but perhaps if Florence had stayed ,....but then the lp was released in march 1968. but with Cindy on the cover art.
also in the Motown 40 special they talk about the Supremes break up with Florence and discuss that Motown felt the supremes would never recover the loss Of HDH and they felt BG was concerned regarding the departure of Ballard.
the management of Motown felt the Supremes were done. the plan was to do a farewell tour. as time went on Cindy apparently fit in and Ross stayed to complete her contract out with the group, but you can see the changed from 1968 forward with Diana even more out front vocally

Yes it’s true Reflections was going to be on Greatest Hits. But it was such a big single they pulled it as they figured it could carry its own lp

And there were rumors Diana was going solo in late 66. That YKMHO would be the final Sups single

But I’ve never heard of any significant plans to do a farewell tour after Greatest Hits. Perhaps if Flos replacement wasn’t accepted by the public and they went ahead and pulled Diana solo they might have done something but in none of the many books I’ve read have they ever discussed this

[RanRan79]

the info on the Supremes Greatest Hits info was released in the reissue of GOLD cd a few years ago. I think. I am fairly sure Reflections was replaced with Standing At the Crossroads Of Love.
there was no plans originally of a Reflections lp as the Greatest Hits lp was released instead but perhaps if Florence had stayed ,....but then the lp was released in march 1968. but with Cindy on the cover art.
also in the Motown 40 special they talk about the Supremes break up with Florence and discuss that Motown felt the supremes would never recover the loss Of HDH and they felt BG was concerned regarding the departure of Ballard.
the management of Motown felt the Supremes were done. the plan was to do a farewell tour. as time went on Cindy apparently fit in and Ross stayed to complete her contract out with the group, but you can see the changed from 1968 forward with Diana even more out front vocally

Thank you brother. I appreciate you sourcing your claims.

[TheMotownManiac]

Some of this doesn’t make sense to me, for example:

A) I don’t think Diana’s contract was Any kind of consideration… Why would it be? She was still under contract to Motown and Bdry Gordy was making all the decisions anyway.

B) I never heard that reflections was supposed to be on greatest hits, what I have read all though I can’t remember where, is that greatest hits were supposed to come out in the summer but they couldn’t do it because they didn’t know for sure what was going to happen with Flo. The story I have always heard is that the album was pressed and ready to go in June, and that is why Flo’s Picture and name remain all over the project went by it’s eventual release several months later, she had been officially replaced by Cindy. And that is why the happening is not on any album because it was supposed to be released on the greatest hits it while it was still popular. I do not believe that Motown ever intended for to smash singles to not appear on their own album. It doesn’t make any sense at all from a marketing standpoint when you consider how the Supremes singles drove album sales.

C) I don’t know why they would be considering a farewell tour because so many of their contracts were signed in advance with the clubs in New York LA Vegas and Miami, not to mention all the other future contracts that would’ve been signed, it would’ve been quite a while until I to her like that could’ve been arranged… And even when there was time to plan a farewell tour when she did leave, they didn’t do it.

D) I am also skeptical that Motown was certain that they were going to replace Florence because not only is she all over the greatest hits package, but they never even made an announcement to the public into the fans in any kind of big way. You had to root out information in Soul Magazine or just sit there and wonder what happened to Florence? It never made sense to me, and still does not, that they performed the thoroughly modern Millie medley on at sullivan in May, when they should have done Thou Swell to support the new album. I don’t think Florence was around long enough to learn the new routine for it, so they took something new that was already in the act and did it on sullivan instead.

[daviddh]

the farewell tour probably would have included dates already on the books.
regarding her contract, I think the idea was to launch Diana as a solo in 1968 . in some way Love Child is a Diana solo