Oh, No! Here's another Supremes' question

[jobucats]

Being that I have been such a Supremes fan since the beginning, I feel embarassed to ask this question. We know they made their first Sullivan appearance in December of 1964 with "Come See About Me." When [[or at least what song ) was their next appearance on the show. I am thinking it was "My World is Empty Without You" around February of 1966. My source books are not available right now. I ask because if it was "My World is Empty," that would mean that they didn't appear at all in 1965. We know they appeared many times between 1966-1969 [[DMF,C).

[marv2]

They did appear in 1965 and performed "You're Nobody, Till Somebody Loves You".

[marv2]

Here is that appearance:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cb2nQop-42g

[bradsupremes]

If I'm not mistaken, they were suppose to perform "Nothing But Heartaches" too, but due to time constraints it was cut in favor of Gordy wanting to showcase the ladies' versatility.

[marv2]

If I'm not mistaken, they were suppose to perform "Nothing But Heartaches" too, but due to time constraints it was cut in favor of Gordy wanting to showcase the ladies' versatility.

I don't know. I do remember that the Supremes were on TV almost every week, sometimes twice in a week on one show or another in '65.

[Fourtopsbiggestfan]

Berry Gordy is ridiculous. Should've done NOTHING BUT HEARTACHES. They couldn't do many standards well. Only the Tops could.

[midnightman]

^ Uh oh watch your back, you're not supposed to say the Supremes can't do standards well here... lol

[kenneth]

Hoping not to start a thing - LOL - but I love the way they do "You're Nobody..." even more since I've heard the previously unreleased versions. I think they added a lot of verve to the song and the presentation of it in their act was a lot of fun to watch.

[daviddh]

i am not a big fan of standards , but I do like some. I do think the Supremes did well with their standards. I like the Sing rogers and hart lp.
I do think that Berry forcing them to sing a standard instead of their recent single cost them as NBH only made number 11, not that its a flop, I think had they performed their song it could have moved higher up the chart,... I actually like it and it remains a favorite of mine.

[jobucats]

They did appear in 1965 and performed "You're Nobody, Till Somebody Loves You". Thank you marv2. Although I've seen this performance many times, I had forgotten when it was performed due to the fact that I always associated a hit single to be performed along with a standard. As others are posting, this was quite a calibrated risk, in my opinion, to be able to do one song and you do a standard. All in all, however, apparently it worked because the Supremes continued to rise in popularity and record sales.

[jobucats]

^ Uh oh watch your back, you're not supposed to say the Supremes can't do standards well here... lol


That's right. You can't say that. "Jesus, build a fence around me right now." LOL

[jobucats]

Here is that appearance:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cb2nQop-42g Oh, how they evolved from those innocent sweet girls next door [[December 1964 "Come See About Me) to these sophisticated, glamorous women less than a year later!!!

[reese]

i am not a big fan of standards , but I do like some. I do think the Supremes did well with their standards. I like the Sing rogers and hart lp.
I do think that Berry forcing them to sing a standard instead of their recent single cost them as NBH only made number 11, not that its a flop, I think had they performed their song it could have moved higher up the chart,... I actually like it and it remains a favorite of mine.

By the time of this October 1965 appearance, NOTHING BUT HEARTACHES had already peaked and was probably falling down the chart. Even though it is has been written that HEARTACHES was ditched in favor of NOBODY, IMO, it is more likely that it was I HEAR A SYMPHONY that was ditched, as it had just been released.

[lockhartgary]

I am not a big fan of standards but I do think that the Supremes did an admirable job with standards.

The Four Tops were made for standards, true. But I also think the Tempts did fine as well.

[kenneth]

Oh, how they evolved from those innocent sweet girls next door [[December 1964 "Come See About Me) to these sophisticated, glamorous women less than a year later!!!

It is amazing when you think how young they were at the time, and especially how Diane could sing standards with as much authority as she did. I think the "Rodgers and Hart" album is pleasant but not outstanding, but on "You're Nobody...," the Sam Cooke album, and some other such tracks, I think she truly excelled.

[marv2]

I am not a big fan of standards but I do think that the Supremes did an admirable job with standards.

The Four Tops were made for standards, true. But I also think the Tempts did fine as well.

Yet it was only Marvin Gaye who originally wanted to do only standards type material. Go figure.

[midnightman]

i am not a big fan of standards , but I do like some. I do think the Supremes did well with their standards. I like the Sing rogers and hart lp.
I do think that Berry forcing them to sing a standard instead of their recent single cost them as NBH only made number 11, not that its a flop, I think had they performed their song it could have moved higher up the chart,... I actually like it and it remains a favorite of mine.

Them doing the standards on Ed Sullivan probably played a part in why NBH peaked when it did... but then again, maybe we wouldn't have had I Hear a Symphony?

[midnightman]

Yet it was only Marvin Gaye who originally wanted to do only standards type material. Go figure.

And that was when Motown was still a startup company. You have to admire someone having guts like that to say "I wanna be a standards artist". At the age of just 21, no less [[same ages the Supremes were when they started doing standards; well 20-21 technically since they recorded songs like People a year before so Motown was indeed preparing them for the white nightclub circuit)...

The Four Tops recorded a lot of standards and jazz material before signing with Motown.

[daviddh]

funny how 3 of my favs, Heartaches, My World Is Empty, Itching In My Heart, seem to be the 3 that got the least pr of all their hits.

[midnightman]

^ I'm still mad about MWIE and Itching being as low as it was. ESPECIALLY Itching!!! LOVE THAT SONG!

[marv2]

funny how 3 of my favs, Heartaches, My World Is Empty, Itching In My Heart, seem to be the 3 that got the least pr of all their hits.

They all were big hits with Nothing But Heartaches barely missing the Top Ten at a #11 position. They are also probably more popular with Supremes/Motown fans than say "Baby Love".

[midnightman]

Then what was keeping NBH from reaching the top ten, if not #1? And why did they not release Mother Dear [[another one of my Supremes favs)?

[luckyluckyme]

By the time of this October 1965 appearance, NOTHING BUT HEARTACHES had already peaked and was probably falling down the chart. Even though it is has been written that HEARTACHES was ditched in favor of NOBODY, IMO, it is more likely that it was I HEAR A SYMPHONY that was ditched, as it had just been released.

In Mary Wilson's itinerary in 'Dreamgirl My Life As A Supreme', Mary lists the October 10, 1965 performance as being ''I Hear A Symphony'' and "You're Nobody 'til Somebody Loves You". Although Mary' list has a number of inaccuracies, she may well be right here as to which 2 songs were scheduled, although only the 2nd was actually performed.

[George Solomon]

Many years ago someone who worked for the Sullivan Show told me they cut Nothing But Heartaches but looking at the facts now, he could have been mistaken. Since I Hear A Symphony was released on Oct 6 and the girls appeared on Sullivan on the 10th, it would have made sense to debut the song on the program. They did however perform it for the first time on Oct 18 on Hullabaloo. I believe the first appearance with Come See About Me was also supposed to be two songs.

[BigAl]

My recollection is that they performed "I Hear A Symphony" first, and later in the show they did "You're Nobody." I could almost swear to this.

[marv2]

Then what was keeping NBH from reaching the top ten, if not #1? And why did they not release Mother Dear [[another one of my Supremes favs)?

I don't know. I was only like 5 or6 years old at the time. LOL!!!!

[BigAl]

Then what was keeping NBH from reaching the top ten, if not #1? And why did they not release Mother Dear [[another one of my Supremes favs)?

"Nothing But heartaches" was generally regarded as being too derivative of its predecessor, "Back in My Arms Again," and it's opined that this is what probably kept it from topping the charts.

"Mother Dear" was test-played regionally [[as was "Honey Boy" — at least where I was living) and apparently neither was deemed hit-worthy. They even performed "Mother Dear" on a couple of variety shows, I suppose to test audience response. It probably was a good thing neither song became a single, since both were pretty formulaic HDH tunes. Decent hooks but on the whole rather unimaginative. The lyrics were very juvenile, and there had been enough of this by that time. This left the way clear for the more mature "I Hear A Symphony."

[reese]

I believe the first appearance with Come See About Me was also supposed to be two songs.

In an interview, Diana confirmed that they were supposed to sing two songs on the first Sullivan appearance. She said she felt bad and wondered if maybe they took one of the songs out because she didn't sing strong enough at rehearsal. But she said that often the Sullivan producers would ask new acts to prepare two songs but would then cut one out by airtime.

[Fourtopsbiggestfan]

Mother Dear is fantastic. Poor decisions as usual.

[TheMotownManiac]

As usual??? Really??? They only changed musical and cultural history forever with those usual bad decisions. Did they make mistakes? Yes. Do I agree with every decision of the 200 billion decisions they had to make? No. But geez........ give them a break.

As as for Mother Dear? No way would that have hit. It’s a mamby-pamby lyric with a decent enough track, but standard HDH fare at best. Even Honey Boy would have fared better - top ten perhaps IMHO - because I think it might have clicked well with the preteen and teen girl demo.

‘’Brilliant decision: wait for a smash instead of taking chances and hold out for the fastest rising single in Ross history, I Hear A Symphony. 39-12-6-1.

i think Nothing But Heartaches suffered a bit from lack of TV exposure, the album hitting and siphoning sales from 45s and, as mentioned, it was slightly derivative of its predecessor. Also, the melody of the verse is practically nonexistent.

Another interesting tidbit for NBH’s ”poor showing” - Motown had trouble with its singles that summer. Only one top ten between Back In My Arms Again and I Hear A Symphony.

[Circa 1824]

Oh, how they evolved from those innocent sweet girls next door [[December 1964 "Come See About Me) to these sophisticated, glamorous women less than a year later!!!

In my opinion, this was not Diana's strongest performance of You're Nobody Until Circa Loves You. The camera went too quickly to Flo's spoken line, which showed everyone it was planned. Also, why the hell did she talk about shopping? Did she go off script?

But, the Hullabaloo performance rocked.

I never liked Mother Dear, and was shocked to recently learn it was almost a single release. Diana's vocal was great, but the backup vocals were horrible - shrill and unpleasant. It would have stalled at number 32

[marybrewster]

If this performance was October 10, 1965, perhaps the push for the "Somebody" performance was in preparation for "At the Copa" LP being released a few weeks later?

[Levi Stubbs Tears]

They did appear in 1965 and performed "You're Nobody, Till Somebody Loves You".

and - according to Mary's book - I Hear A Symphony [[both on October 10).

During a chunk of 1965 of course, they had been in Europe & The UK doing 'The Sounds of Motown' special as well as touring.

[marv2]

and - according to Mary's book - I Hear A Symphony [[both on October 10).

During a chunk of 1965 of course, they had been in Europe & The UK doing 'The Sounds of Motown' special as well as touring.

The also appeared on many America television programs in 1965.

[imakicola]

The also appeared on many America television programs in 1965.

Does anybody have the complete list of Ed Sullivan performances?

This is what I have in my head, in the order that I have in my head!
Does anyone have any corrections for me? I put slashes to designate when more than one performance is from the same show!

Come See About Me
You’re Nobody ‘Till Somebody Loves You
My World is Empty Without You Babe / Somewhere
Love is Like an Itchin’ In My Heart / More
You Can’t Hurry Love / I Hear a Symphony Medley
Medley of Hits / My Favorite Things [[pink gowns...when was this?)
You Keep Me Hanging On
Love is Here and Now You’re Gone
Reflections
The Happening / Millie Rose Mame Medley
In and Out of Love / Green Sleeves
Forever Came Today / Fats Waller Medley
Always / Irving Berling Medley
I’m Losing You Medley with The Temptations
Love Child [[first time)
Funny Girl Medley [[when was this?)
Love Child [[pink clothes) / I’m Living in Shame / Cornet Man [[was this the same show?)
I Get a Kick Out of You
I’m Living in Shame / You’re Nobody ‘Till Somebody Loves You / Impossible Dream / No Matter What Sign You Are
Someday We’ll Be Together
Up the Ladder to the Roof / If My Friends Could See Me Now

[reese]

Does anybody have the complete list of Ed Sullivan performances?

This is what I have in my head, in the order that I have in my head!
Does anyone have any corrections for me? I put slashes to designate when more than one performance is from the same show!

Come See About Me
You’re Nobody ‘Till Somebody Loves You
My World is Empty Without You Babe / Somewhere
Love is Like an Itchin’ In My Heart / More
You Can’t Hurry Love / I Hear a Symphony Medley
Medley of Hits / My Favorite Things [[pink gowns...when was this?)
You Keep Me Hanging On
Love is Here and Now You’re Gone
Reflections
The Happening / Millie Rose Mame Medley
In and Out of Love / Green Sleeves
Forever Came Today / Fats Waller Medley
Always / Irving Berling Medley
I’m Losing You Medley with The Temptations
Love Child [[first time)
Funny Girl Medley [[when was this?)
Love Child [[pink clothes) / I’m Living in Shame / Cornet Man [[was this the same show?)
I Get a Kick Out of You
I’m Living in Shame / You’re Nobody ‘Till Somebody Loves You / Impossible Dream / No Matter What Sign You Are
Someday We’ll Be Together
Up the Ladder to the Roof / If My Friends Could See Me Now

Your list is basically complete, based on what I've seen on Supremes/Sullivan compilations I have had.

a) Medley of Hits / My Favorite Things [[pink gowns...when was this?) Christmas 1966

b) You Keep Me Hangin' On, and Reflections were only performed on Sullivan as part of medleys.

c) Love Is Here was never performed on Sullivan.

d) In and Out of Love / Green Sleeves and the medley with The Temptations are from the same show

e) Love Child [[first time) and Funny Girl Medley are from the same show, September 1968.

f) Love Child [[pink clothes) / I’m Living in Shame / I Get a Kick Out of You are from the same show.

g) Cornet Man is from a Bob Hope special

h) You’re Nobody ‘Till Somebody Loves You / Impossible Dream / No Matter What Sign You Are are from the same show

i) A hits medley and Someday We'll Be Together are from the same show [[Diana's final appearance).

[marv2]

Does anybody have the complete list of Ed Sullivan performances?

This is what I have in my head, in the order that I have in my head!
Does anyone have any corrections for me? I put slashes to designate when more than one performance is from the same show!

Come See About Me
You’re Nobody ‘Till Somebody Loves You
My World is Empty Without You Babe / Somewhere
Love is Like an Itchin’ In My Heart / More
You Can’t Hurry Love / I Hear a Symphony Medley
Medley of Hits / My Favorite Things [[pink gowns...when was this?)
You Keep Me Hanging On
Love is Here and Now You’re Gone
Reflections
The Happening / Millie Rose Mame Medley
In and Out of Love / Green Sleeves
Forever Came Today / Fats Waller Medley
Always / Irving Berling Medley
I’m Losing You Medley with The Temptations
Love Child [[first time)
Funny Girl Medley [[when was this?)
Love Child [[pink clothes) / I’m Living in Shame / Cornet Man [[was this the same show?)
I Get a Kick Out of You
I’m Living in Shame / You’re Nobody ‘Till Somebody Loves You / Impossible Dream / No Matter What Sign You Are
Someday We’ll Be Together
Up the Ladder to the Roof / If My Friends Could See Me Now

I don't remember them making separate appearances to perform:

You Keep Me Hanging On
Love is Here and Now You’re Gone
Reflections

[sup_fan]

I don't remember them making separate appearances to perform:

You Keep Me Hanging On
Love is Here and Now You’re Gone
Reflections

correct - they didn't launch or support every single with a Sullivan appearance.

YKMHO - launched on the Hollywood Palace video while also doing Somewhere and What Now My Love [[with Herb Alpert). It was then used in both hits medleys on Sullivan and Andy williams

LIHANYG - launched on Andy Williams show. they also did a revised medley [[from the Sullivan medley) of their greatest hits. then they did Let There Be Love with Andy

Reflections - launched on Hollywood Palace and was cindy's TV debut. Also did sounds of the city with Sammy Davis Jr. Reflections was also performed in full on Tennessee Ernie Ford special

[imakicola]

Oh wow! Thank you! Let’s see if I got this straight [[revising from my original post):


COME SEE ABOUT ME
[[Supremes’ debut on Sullivan, blue gowns broadcast in black and white, but corrected to pink in later broadcasts)


YOU’RE NOBODY ‘TILL SOMEBODY [[first)
[[Purple gowns)


MY WORLD IS EMPTY / SOMEWHERE
[[Pale pink gowns)


LOVE IS LIKE AN ITCHING / MORE
[[Yellow gowns)


YOU CAN’T HURRY LOVE / SYMPHONY MELODY
[[Silver glittery gowns in front of colored oval window panes)


FIRST MEDLEY OF HITS / FAVORITE THINGS
[[Christmas show, pink gowns)


THE HAPPENING / MILLIE ROSE MAME
[[Yellow gowns followed by medley costumes, Florence Ballard’s final performance on Sullivan)


IN AND OUT OF LOVE / GREEN SLEEVES / TEMPTATIONS MEDLEY
[[Translucent nightgowns, then weird Green Sleeves outfit, then flashy Temptations medley outfits, Cindy Birdsong’s debut on Sullivan)
In and Out of Love / Green Sleeves / Temptations Medley [[Cindy Birdsong’s debut)


FOREVER CAME TODAY / FATS WALLER MEDLEY
[[Black gowns, then medley costumes)


ALWAYS / IRVING BERLING MEDLEY
[[Black and white gowns, followed by white gowns, featuring Ethel Merman)


LOVE CHILD [[first) / FUNNY GIRL MEDLEY
[[Love Child outfit, followed by white gowns)


LOVE CHILD [[second) / LIVING IN SHAME [[first) / GET A KICK
[[Pink outfits, followed by tuxedos)


LIVING IN SHAME [[second) / YOU’RE NOBODY ‘TILL SOMEBODY LOVES YOU [[second) / IMPOSSIBLE DREAM / NO MATTER WHAT SIGN YOU ARE
[[Glittery outfits, followed by No Matter What Sign You Are outfits)
This seems like a lot of performances in one show. Am I confusing the “Living in Shame” with another performance from maybe Hollywood Palace or something?


FINAL HITS MEDLEY / SOMEDAY WE’LL BE TOGETHER
[[Yellow outfits with Mary’s voices catching in Diana’s mic toward the end, Diana Ross’s final performance on Sullivan)


UP THE LADDER TO THE ROOF / IF MY FRIENDS COULD SEE ME NOW
[[Red glittery outfits, Jean Terrell’s final performance)

[sup_fan]

they only did Shame that one time on Sullivan. for that later Sullivan performance it was You're Nobody and Impossible Dream in the gold gowns. and then No Matter is those silver spangled jumpsuits

in the final Diana performance there are a few more "fun facts"
*this was shortly after Cindy's release from the hospital following her kidnapping ordeal. if you look closely at her face and in the close up during Love Child, you can see that the makeup doesn't fully conceal the bruising
*as M and C do their circle around Diana in the Symphony closing of the medley, Cindy slightly stumbles on Diana's mic chord
*Diana's mystery mic - this one is good lol ;) watch the top of her mike during the medley up through Love Child when they cut to M and C. then when they go back to Diana the top is gone!! was it a quick snack? did it fall off? did she rip it off and throw it at the producers? lolol who knows. I've wondered if they taped 2 versions of the medley and that was a cut between the two and she used 2 different mics for the two versions.

some other Sullivan folk-lore with the Sups

*the "Diana ross will be fired for this" comment before their debut of Love Child was supposedly because they weren't quite back on stage and ready after changing from their white gowns from the Funny Girl medley. they had to pause the broadcast slightly and Ed made that joke

*Ed loved the girls, especially Diana. several times he'd make comments after they performed like "they're great!" A few years ago I posted a bunch of their clips on YouTube including the Fats Waller one. I left Ed's comment in at the very end. he also often promoted their Copa appearances

*there are pics of their rehearsal of the Thou Swell medley. originally they were going to wear medieval princess costumes. pics show M and C in these testing them. fortunately the opted not to do this for broadcast

*I believe the Come See About Me clip was originally broadcast in both color and b&w. but only the b&w survives

*You Can't Hurry Love - you can see Diana glance down as she's walking during the first verse. she slightly went over her "mark" and the glance down is to see where her tape is. she shifts slightly over to in to continue the verse. this allowed her to be perfectly lined up between M and F for the camera angle when they sing the second chorus and she walks towards them

*of course you've probably seen the earring fall off during YCHL. at the very end of song when they're bowing and before they walk across stage to do Symphony medley, she throws the earring off stage

*Itching in my heart - Mary wasn't anticipating Diana shouting "Go Mary!" during the dance break. watch her facial expression lol

*lots of angst has been made about how Diana would cover the girls' faces - Cindy has been quoted saying this, Tony Turner made a stink about it. out of every tv performance I've seen, the only time this really happens is at end of Funny Girl medley. there are a few times where maybe someone is a little blocked by an end pose/arms up. but this is the only time ive seen hands in front of faces

*Diana trips during I Get A Kick Out Of You

*for Forever Came Today, since M and C didn't record the original, they didn't know the background vocals. and we all know how hard it is to figure out what they're saying. so rather than try to figure it out, they just did the Ahhh's during the broadcast.

*Always/Irving Berlin night - there's a scene after the various performances are done when the entire cast present Irving with his birthday cake. the 3 sups are there in the brocade cream break-away gowns they'd worn on the Tennessee Ernie Ford special. I think the whole cast sings together to Irving

[midnightman]

I noticed that too. I watched virtually all the Supremes clips and except the one you mentioned, she never flailed her arms around the others' faces... but I guess when something is part of a folk legend [[or just plain lying gossip "tea"), the lie gets repeated so much that people believe it.

I also saw Mary's response to Diana during "Itching" like "girl we didn't rehearse this, what you doin'?" LOL

[Boogiedown]

FINAL HITS MEDLEY / SOMEDAY WE’LL BE TOGETHER
[[Yellow outfits with Mary’s voices catching in Diana’s mic toward the end, Diana Ross’s final performance on Sullivan)


UP THE LADDER TO THE ROOF / IF MY FRIENDS COULD SEE ME NOW
[[Red glittery outfits, Jean Terrell’s final performance)

I didn't realize The Supremes had performed a version of that song ! Any way to hear it ??

[luckyluckyme]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WD36RkTweLA

[reese]

in the final Diana performance there are a few more "fun facts"
*this was shortly after Cindy's release from the hospital following her kidnapping ordeal. if you look closely at her face and in the close up during Love Child, you can see that the makeup doesn't fully conceal the bruising
*as M and C do their circle around Diana in the Symphony closing of the medley, Cindy slightly stumbles on Diana's mic chord
*Diana's mystery mic - this one is good lol ;) watch the top of her mike during the medley up through Love Child when they cut to M and C. then when they go back to Diana the top is gone!! was it a quick snack? did it fall off? did she rip it off and throw it at the producers? lolol who knows. I've wondered if they taped 2 versions of the medley and that was a cut between the two and she used 2 different mics for the two versions.

*lots of angst has been made about how Diana would cover the girls' faces - Cindy has been quoted saying this, Tony Turner made a stink about it. out of every tv performance I've seen, the only time this really happens is at end of Funny Girl medley. there are a few times where maybe someone is a little blocked by an end pose/arms up. but this is the only time ive seen hands in front of faces



Re the final performance, after viewing it a number of times, I think it was done at least twice, and not live in front of a studio audience. The mike switch couldn't have happened on live tv, plus the applause sounds canned.

Re Diana covering the girls' faces, it is amazing that it has taken on a life of its own. Cindy is even quoted as saying as she moved to the left, Diana's hand moved to the left to keep blocking, LOL. I would love to see that, but I'm doubtful it even exists.

Tony Turner went totally overboard with his description of the girls' performance of MY WORLD IS EMPTY WITHOUT YOU. He has Diana constantly fussing with a lock of hair on her wig, and purposely blocking out Mary and Flo by putting her arms up in a big V. If you watch the performance, this is so totally untrue. Diana is to the extreme left on the other girls, so how could she block out both of their faces? Not to mention that she never touches her hair once! Too funny.

Also, in his book, Eric Burdon relates an experience he had when his group, the Animals, appeared on a Sullivan episode with the Supremes. He claims he saw Sullivan screaming at the girls backstage, reducing them to tears. None of the girls has ever commented on this incident. If it is true, I wonder what made Ed so angry?

[jobucats]

Thanks to everyone for your input regarding the Supremes performances on the Sullivan show. My favorite and most entertaining performance was the "Millie, Rose, & Mame" medley. As many of us have stated before, listening and watching the Supremes' renditions of standards and showtunes was our first, serious exposure and attention to that genre of music.

[marv2]

Re the final performance, after viewing it a number of times, I think it was done at least twice, and not live in front of a studio audience. The mike switch couldn't have happened on live tv, plus the applause sounds canned.

Re Diana covering the girls' faces, it is amazing that it has taken on a life of its own. Cindy is even quoted as saying as she moved to the left, Diana's hand moved to the left to keep blocking, LOL. I would love to see that, but I'm doubtful it even exists.





Here it is:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zqPTkdYzgc

[sup_fan]

Re the final performance, after viewing it a number of times, I think it was done at least twice, and not live in front of a studio audience. The mike switch couldn't have happened on live tv, plus the applause sounds canned.

Re Diana covering the girls' faces, it is amazing that it has taken on a life of its own. Cindy is even quoted as saying as she moved to the left, Diana's hand moved to the left to keep blocking, LOL. I would love to see that, but I'm doubtful it even exists.

Tony Turner went totally overboard with his description of the girls' performance of MY WORLD IS EMPTY WITHOUT YOU. He has Diana constantly fussing with a lock of hair on her wig, and purposely blocking out Mary and Flo by putting her arms up in a big V. If you watch the performance, this is so totally untrue. Diana is to the extreme left on the other girls, so how could she block out both of their faces? Not to mention that she never touches her hair once! Too funny.

Also, in his book, Eric Burdon relates an experience he had when his group, the Animals, appeared on a Sullivan episode with the Supremes. He claims he saw Sullivan screaming at the girls backstage, reducing them to tears. None of the girls has ever commented on this incident. If it is true, I wonder what made Ed so angry?

I’ve never heard of story like this. Perhaps he got the girl groups mixed up and it was someone else. Everyone has said how ed lived the girls. He’s visit them backstage at some of their NYC shows

[marv2]

I’ve never heard of story like this. Perhaps he got the girl groups mixed up and it was someone else. Everyone has said how ed lived the girls. He’s visit them backstage at some of their NYC shows

Just like Reese is doubtful the putting hands over the faces of the other Supremes video exists [[it does just look above), this story about Ed Sullivan could be true. It could of happened the time Florence jumped on Diane and kicked her ass in the dressing room.

[reese]

I’ve never heard of story like this. Perhaps he got the girl groups mixed up and it was someone else. Everyone has said how ed lived the girls. He’s visit them backstage at some of their NYC shows

Eric could very well be wrong and/or confused. I looked at an Ed Sullivan show episode guide and I don't see an instance where the Animals and the Supremes appear on the same episode.

[sup_fan]

the "flo beating up diana" story is another interesting one. Randy mentions it in Call Her Miss Ross but then omits it in his later book. And it's not in his earlier Diana book either. I know Tony brings it up, but that's a less than trustworthy source.

[marv2]

the "flo beating up diana" story is another interesting one. Randy mentions it in Call Her Miss Ross but then omits it in his later book. And it's not in his earlier Diana book either. I know Tony brings it up, but that's a less than trustworthy source.

She beat her up at Ed Sullivan's and that was not the only time.

[marybrewster]

sup_fan:

To add to your list, towards the end of the "In and Out of Love" performance, you'll see Cindy starting to sing Diana's lead; watch her face as she catches her mistake.

[marybrewster]

Also in the 1st "Love Child" performance, Diana flubs at least twice: with the line "Don't think that I don't need ya" then a few seconds later she says "wearing" instead of "bearing".

[luckyluckyme]

marv2,

Thank you for posting the Ed Sullivan Funny Girl Medley video as a means of demonstrating your point. It allowed me to watch anew with critical eyes. And not knowing all the specifics of how cameramen work, I noticed a few things:

For the medley Mary & Cindy are on camera for the majority of the video, featured either alongside Diana, in the forefront with Diana behind them, or with the camera focused solely on them. They are off camera while their background vocals are heard for the first moments of 'Don't Rain On My Parade' and the first half of 'People'. Plenty of screen time in my estimation. For a grand total of 7 seconds out of a 389 second video, part of their faces are blocked at the final notes of the medley by Diana's dramatic hand gestures. I suspect by this point no one is trying to guess who is behind Diana's raised arms. I really don't get what all this fuss is about; 7 short seconds really aren't that significant when viewing the whole picture . Your point doesn't seem to have the force you had hoped it would by presenting this video as evidence.
Do you have any other videos that you can post where the upraised arms & hands of Diana blocked Mary and Cindy's face for a considerable portion of the performance and not for a few paltry seconds. That might help convince me that this is a substantial issue to be considered and not the nitpicking that it now comes across as when viewed with a critical eye.

[marv2]

marv2,

Thank you for posting the Ed Sullivan Funny Girl Medley video as a means of demonstrating your point. It allowed me to watch anew with critical eyes. And not knowing all the specifics of how cameramen work, I noticed a few things:

For the medley Mary & Cindy are on camera for the majority of the video, featured either alongside Diana, in the forefront with Diana behind them, or with the camera focused solely on them. They are off camera while their background vocals are heard for the first moments of 'Don't Rain On My Parade' and the first half of 'People'. Plenty of screen time in my estimation. For a grand total of 7 seconds out of a 689 second video, part of their faces are blocked at the final notes of the medley by Diana's dramatic hand gestures. I suspect by this point no one is trying to guess who is behind Diana's raised arms. I really don't get what all this fuss is about; 7 short seconds really aren't that significant when viewing the whole picture . Your point doesn't seem to have the force you had hoped it would by presenting this video as evidence.
Do you have any other videos that you can post where the upraised arms & hands of Diana blocked Mary and Cindy's face for a considerable portion of the performance and not for a few paltry seconds. That might help convince me that this is a substantial issue to be considered and not the nitpicking that it now comes across as when viewed with a critical eye.

Luckyluckyme, thank you but it was not me that made a fuss about this. It was the Supremes themselves that it was an issue. I was kid when I saw all these Ed Sullivan Show performances and I am sure I did not know or did not care that they were all not getting along perfectly at the time. I posted the video because Reese sounded it like it was something all made up or impossible to have occurred. I posted this particular one to show that yes, it can and did occur. How often it happened I do not know.

[RanRan79]

She beat her up at Ed Sullivan's and that was not the only time.

But Florence said they never had any physical fights. Are you suggesting that she is a liar? Mary never wrote about any Flo/Diana fight in either of her books, even though Mary writes about the time she and Diana had a fight in the early days. And the only legitimate mention of any physical altercation between Florence and Diana [[I do not consider Tony Turner a legitimate source) appears in Call Her Miss Ross, and JRandy doesn't quote anyone about the fight. In fact, there isn't a source for the information in the bibliography for that anecdote either. The fact that he didn't bother to put such an obvious big deal moment in his latest Diana book, nor Mary Wilson didn't bother to mention it in hers, and Florence actually saying they never had any fights, suggests to me this fight business may be more Supremes myth. Except when faced with obvious evidence to the contrary, I always take the word of the people involved over anything else. Florence said it didn't happen and I believe her. But if you can provide a credible source to the contrary, I might join you in calling Florence Ballard a liar.

[sup_fan]

Also in the 1st "Love Child" performance, Diana flubs at least twice: with the line "Don't think that I don't need ya" then a few seconds later she says "wearing" instead of "bearing".

And there’s the fly around Diana’s head towards end of Love Child lol

[marv2]

But Florence said they never had any physical fights. Are you suggesting that she is a liar? Mary never wrote about any Flo/Diana fight in either of her books, even though Mary writes about the time she and Diana had a fight in the early days. And the only legitimate mention of any physical altercation between Florence and Diana [[I do not consider Tony Turner a legitimate source) appears in Call Her Miss Ross, and JRandy doesn't quote anyone about the fight. In fact, there isn't a source for the information in the bibliography for that anecdote either. The fact that he didn't bother to put such an obvious big deal moment in his latest Diana book, nor Mary Wilson didn't bother to mention it in hers, and Florence actually saying they never had any fights, suggests to me this fight business may be more Supremes myth. Except when faced with obvious evidence to the contrary, I always take the word of the people involved over anything else. Florence said it didn't happen and I believe her. But if you can provide a credible source to the contrary, I might join you in calling Florence Ballard a liar.

I don't know where or who she said that to, but she did[[have fights)! All of them had fights. Don't let me get started with the Temptations either LOL! There were more people at Motown involved in physical fights than not.

[marv2]

But Florence said they never had any physical fights. Are you suggesting that she is a liar? Mary never wrote about any Flo/Diana fight in either of her books, even though Mary writes about the time she and Diana had a fight in the early days. And the only legitimate mention of any physical altercation between Florence and Diana [[I do not consider Tony Turner a legitimate source) appears in Call Her Miss Ross, and JRandy doesn't quote anyone about the fight. In fact, there isn't a source for the information in the bibliography for that anecdote either. The fact that he didn't bother to put such an obvious big deal moment in his latest Diana book, nor Mary Wilson didn't bother to mention it in hers, and Florence actually saying they never had any fights, suggests to me this fight business may be more Supremes myth. Except when faced with obvious evidence to the contrary, I always take the word of the people involved over anything else. Florence said it didn't happen and I believe her. But if you can provide a credible source to the contrary, I might join you in calling Florence Ballard a liar.

Diana Ross said in an interview with the CBC [[Canadian Broadcasting Co.), that Florence left the Supremes because she was tired of traveling and wanted to settle down and open an antiques shop........................................LOL!

[marv2]

But Florence said they never had any physical fights. Are you suggesting that she is a liar? Mary never wrote about any Flo/Diana fight in either of her books, even though Mary writes about the time she and Diana had a fight in the early days. And the only legitimate mention of any physical altercation between Florence and Diana [[I do not consider Tony Turner a legitimate source) appears in Call Her Miss Ross, and JRandy doesn't quote anyone about the fight. In fact, there isn't a source for the information in the bibliography for that anecdote either. The fact that he didn't bother to put such an obvious big deal moment in his latest Diana book, nor Mary Wilson didn't bother to mention it in hers, and Florence actually saying they never had any fights, suggests to me this fight business may be more Supremes myth. Except when faced with obvious evidence to the contrary, I always take the word of the people involved over anything else. Florence said it didn't happen and I believe her. But if you can provide a credible source to the contrary, I might join you in calling Florence Ballard a liar.

On the Claude Francois Show in 1968, he asked the ages of each of the Supremes. Mary Wilson said "23", Diana Ross said "23" and Cindy Birdsong said "23 also"! LOL!!!!

[marv2]

But Florence said they never had any physical fights. Are you suggesting that she is a liar? Mary never wrote about any Flo/Diana fight in either of her books, even though Mary writes about the time she and Diana had a fight in the early days. And the only legitimate mention of any physical altercation between Florence and Diana [[I do not consider Tony Turner a legitimate source) appears in Call Her Miss Ross, and JRandy doesn't quote anyone about the fight. In fact, there isn't a source for the information in the bibliography for that anecdote either. The fact that he didn't bother to put such an obvious big deal moment in his latest Diana book, nor Mary Wilson didn't bother to mention it in hers, and Florence actually saying they never had any fights, suggests to me this fight business may be more Supremes myth. Except when faced with obvious evidence to the contrary, I always take the word of the people involved over anything else. Florence said it didn't happen and I believe her. But if you can provide a credible source to the contrary, I might join you in calling Florence Ballard a liar.

Mary also didn't put that Diana had gotten pregnant by Berry Gordy in either of her books.

[marv2]

There were a lot of things Mary did not put in her books because she knew that some people would not be able to handle it.

[milven]

Here it is:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zqPTkdYzgc





Is this a bit silly? At the end of the video, the three ladies are actually singing as a group rather, than as lead and two background singers. As a group, they are standing shoulder to shoulder. [[Nice to see them that way) Because of the choreography, Diana has to be about a foot in front of Mary and Cindy because if not, when all three of them extend their arms, they would be pushing each other out of the way. There are only two other options to allow all three to raise their arms at the conclusion. Diana could stand one foot back and the girls could cover Diana's face. Or they could split the group and have Cindy stand at stage right, Mary stand at stage left, and Diana stand at center stage. Then they could all raise their hands to their hearts content and no one's face would be covered.

Much of this also has to do with camera angles. There is a video of Jean, Mary and Lynda singing Bad Weather. When Jean takes her mike off the stand and moves from stage left position to center position, the camera angle has her blocking Lynda, almost as if she is standing in front of her. But she isn't. She is simply moving to the middle of the group, which is obvious as you continue to watch the video after camera angle is straight forward.

Conclusion: Much Ado About Nothing


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mzZXYmSop5Q

[marv2]

Is this a bit silly? At the end of the video, the three ladies are actually singing as a group rather, than as lead and two background singers. As a group, they are standing shoulder to shoulder. [[Nice to see them that way) Because of the choreography, Diana has to be about a foot in front of Mary and Cindy because if not, when all three of them extend their arms, they would be pushing each other out of the way. There are only two other options to allow all three to raise their arms at the conclusion. Diana could stand one foot back and the girls could cover Diana's face. Or they could split the group and have Cindy stand at stage right, Mary stand at stage left, and Diana stand at center stage. Then they could all raise their hands to their hearts content and no one's face would be covered.

Much of this also has to do with camera angles. There is a video of Jean, Mary and Lynda singing Bad Weather. When Jean takes her mike off the stand and moves from stage left position to center position, the camera angle has her blocking Lynda, almost as if she is standing in front of her. But she isn't. She is simply moving to the middle of the group, which is obvious as you continue to watch the video after camera angle is straight forward.

Conclusion: Much Ado About Nothing


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mzZXYmSop5Q

I don't know why Cindy Birdsong made an issue out of it.

[bradsupremes]

*I believe the Come See About Me clip was originally broadcast in both color and b&w. but only the b&w survives

CBS didn't air any of their regularly scheduled broadcasts in color until September 1965. The Ed Sullivan Show was black & white up to the fall of 1965 when it switched over to color. The first Supremes performance in color on Sullivan was "You're Nobody Till Somebody Loves You."

[marv2]

CBS didn't air any of their regularly scheduled broadcasts in color until September 1965. The Ed Sullivan Show was black & white up to the fall of 1965 when it switched over to color. The first Supremes performance in color on Sullivan was "You're Nobody Till Somebody Loves You."

Unfortunately, we were still watching the show in black and white at my house. Dang! LOL!!!

[imakicola]

I know Mary’s account is controversial, and some people say it isn’t true or accurate. Either way, I’m so so happy she wrote the book. It’s one side of a four person story, and I got to find out SO MUCH MORE about the Supremes than I ever would have known!

As for Diana covering the girls’ faces, wasnk’t It Oprah that made that rumor popular by saying directly to Diana on her show?

[marv2]

I know Mary’s account is controversial, and some people say it isn’t true or accurate. Either way, I’m so so happy she wrote the book. It’s one side of a four person story, and I got to find out SO MUCH MORE about the Supremes than I ever would have known!

As for Diana covering the girls’ faces, wasnk’t It Oprah that made that rumor popular by saying directly to Diana on her show?

Mary's book was true.

[RanRan79]

I don't where or who she said that to, but she did! All of them had fights. Don't let me get started with the Temptations either LOL! There were more people at Motown involved in physical fights than not.

Maybe I'm stupid- and in this case if you honestly feel that's true, you have my permission to go there without me coming for you:p- but how is it that you can state with such certainty that a fight between Flo and Diana happened? You've stated countless times that during the time in question you were a small child. Now if you saw them throwing hands, then I understand your declaration. But if you're assuming they had a fight because "everybody" at Motown had fights, I don't understand how you can come to that conclusion. Where are the eyewitnesses? Who are they? And who believes for one moment that Gordy would have ever stood for Florence beating up on his precious Diana? You can't have the lead singer of the world's most famous female group onstage or on television black, blue and scratched up. Gordy would have flipped. And none of the principals- Gordy, Flo, Diana or Mary- mention Florence physically attacking anyone as a reason for the problems in the group. All of that leads me to believe that a physical fight between these two women was first reported to add drama to a story where the drama was already exaggerated and subsequently repeated because, well quite frankly, people love the image of two Black women physically fighting each other. Until Gordy, Diana or Mary or a legit eyewitness says this happened [[I hate to go here but...) FAKE NEWS.

[RanRan79]

Mary also didn't put that Diana had gotten pregnant by Berry Gordy in either of her books.

Because she was smart enough to know that she would have been destroyed for doing that. Mary has her faults but she would never have hurt a child on purpose. So why would she have aired that child's business in a book that's supposed to be about Mary? I fail to understand why you mentioned it.

[marv2]

Maybe I'm stupid- and in this case if you honestly feel that's true, you have my permission to go there without me coming for you:p- but how is it that you can state with such certainty that a fight between Flo and Diana happened? You've stated countless times that during the time in question you were a small child. Now if you saw them throwing hands, then I understand your declaration. But if you're assuming they had a fight because "everybody" at Motown had fights, I don't understand how you can come to that conclusion. Where are the eyewitnesses? Who are they? And who believes for one moment that Gordy would have ever stood for Florence beating up on his precious Diana? You can't have the lead singer of the world's most famous female group onstage or on television black, blue and scratched up. Gordy would have flipped. And none of the principals- Gordy, Flo, Diana or Mary- mention Florence physically attacking anyone as a reason for the problems in the group. All of that leads me to believe that a physical fight between these two women was first reported to add drama to a story where the drama was already exaggerated and subsequently repeated because, well quite frankly, people love the image of two Black women physically fighting each other. Until Gordy, Diana or Mary or a legit eyewitness says this happened [[I hate to go here but...) FAKE NEWS.

Whatever! This is not court case. It all happened. LOL!

[captainjames]

wow so much Hype about nothing.

[RanRan79]

There were a lot of things Mary did not put in her books because she knew that some people would not be able to handle it.

I'm sure Mary also didn't put a lot of things in her books about herself because she couldn't handle it. Besides, Mary's books were supposed to be about herself. If she spent most pages of both books talking about other people's business she would have had some hard questions to answer about why she would do that. Mary is a smart woman.

[marv2]

Because she was smart enough to know that she would have been destroyed for doing that. Mary has her faults but she would never have hurt a child on purpose. So why would she have aired that child's business in a book that's supposed to be about Mary? I fail to understand why you mentioned it.

I mentioned it for a couple of reasons. One as an example of Mary Wilson that including everything that happened in her book. Secondly, if wrote her book just to hurt Diana Ross as so many of Ross' fans assume, she would have wrote about Diane getting pregnant by Berry Gordy one month before she got married. Mary would not have been destroyed LOL! There were people at Motown that wanted her to go much further than she did. She didn't because she wasn't trying to hurt anyone. You would be surprised at who those people were........!

[RanRan79]

Mary's book was true.

Not everything. Thanks to the internet and video sharing we know that to be true.

[marv2]

I'm sure Mary also didn't put a lot of things in her books about herself because she couldn't handle it. Besides, Mary's books were supposed to be about herself. If she spent most pages of both books talking about other people's business she would have had some hard questions to answer about why she would do that. Mary is a smart woman.

I think she would have been sued if she lied.

[RanRan79]

Whatever! This is not court case. It all happened. LOL!

Good grief Marv, you still can't say how you know. LOL Okay, it's not a court case, but when you say something and can't [[or won't) back it up you lose credibility. That's alright, I love you anyway.:o But I see you.

[RanRan79]

I mentioned it for a couple of reasons. One as an example of Mary Wilson that including everything that happened in her book. Secondly, if wrote her book just to hurt Diana Ross as so many of Ross' fans assume, she would have wrote about Diane getting pregnant by Berry Gordy one month before she got married. Mary would not have been destroyed LOL! There were people at Motown that wanted her to go much further than she did. She didn't because she wasn't trying to hurt anyone. You would be surprised at who those people were........!

I wouldn't be surprised, just like I'm not surprised by the people at Motown who call Mary a liar. That's life. What we know to be true is this: there's Mary's side, Diana's side, Gordy's side, Flo's side and the truth. And they all tell some truths and they all have their perspectives which drive what's true and what's not. But none of their mouths are a prayer book, as my grandmother would say. Are you willing to bet your life on the word of Mary Wilson?

[marv2]

Good grief Marv, you still can't say how you know. LOL Okay, it's not a court case, but when you say something and can't [[or won't) back it up you lose credibility. That's alright, I love you anyway.:o But I see you.

No I can't out of respect for people that were around and shared many things with me over the years. I wished I cared about proving things to you.....but unfortunately I don't. I'll say what I've always said. I am about the truth. I have no reason to lie about this stuff. I don't even dare talk about most of the stuff I know LOL!!!!

[marv2]

I wouldn't be surprised, just like I'm not surprised by the people at Motown who call Mary a liar. That's life. What we know to be true is this: there's Mary's side, Diana's side, Gordy's side, Flo's side and the truth. And they all tell some truths and they all have their perspectives which drive what's true and what's not. But none of their mouths are a prayer book, as my grandmother would say. Are you willing to bet your life on the word of Mary Wilson?

Mr. Gordy's has said that his "Motown the Musical" is the true story. Ahemmmmm hehehehehehehe!

[marv2]

I wouldn't be surprised, just like I'm not surprised by the people at Motown who call Mary a liar. That's life. What we know to be true is this: there's Mary's side, Diana's side, Gordy's side, Flo's side and the truth. And they all tell some truths and they all have their perspectives which drive what's true and what's not. But none of their mouths are a prayer book, as my grandmother would say. Are you willing to bet your life on the word of Mary Wilson?

Diana wrote this great, big book called Sparrow. I guess that was her side of things. LOL!!!!

[RanRan79]

I think she would have been sued if she lied.

Not necessarily. The stuff Mary wrote about was life shit, if it happened. They were young people doing dumb shit. No one is gonna sue about that nonsense. When Tony Turner planned to write that Gordy molested him, that's the type of stuff you sue over, which is exactly what Gordy threatened to do and of course we have yet to get that third book from Turner.

If famous people sued about everything that was written or said about them, they would spend their careers in court, including Mary Wilson who has had some very unsavory things said about her in various books. Mary and Diana seem to be unbothered by the things written or said about them. Only the fans seem to give a shit.

[robb_k]

14074
I'm surprised they didn't sing "Baby Love" on Ed Sullivan. It seemed like they performed that song on hundreds of TV shows.

[marv2]

14074
I'm surprised they didn't sing "Baby Love" on Ed Sullivan. It seemed like they performed that song on hundreds of TV shows.

That is interesting when you think of it. "Baby Love" was a very popular hit and would have definitely fit Sullivan's clean cut family friendly format.

[RanRan79]

No I can't out of respect for people that were around and shared many things with me over the years. I wished I cared about proving things to you.....but unfortunately I don't. I'll say what I've always said. I am about the truth. I have no reason to lie about this stuff. I don't even dare talk about most of the stuff I know LOL!!!!

Yup, I assumed this post was coming. There's nothing left for me to say. You don't realize it, but you have just proven my point. Time to move on...

[RanRan79]

Mr. Gordy's has said that his "Motown the Musical" is the true story. Ahemmmmm hehehehehehehe!

He's free to believe that. I'm sure there are some truths to it, just like there are probably some falsehoods. [[I haven't seen it.) Again, that's life. If you wrote a book about your life I'm sure you would claim it was the truth. And I bet there would be some folks who know you who would remember some of what you write differently than you do. It's not rocket science.

[RanRan79]

Diana wrote this great, big book called Sparrow. I guess that was her side of things. LOL!!!!

No guessing about it. It was her side of things. Whose side was she going to give? Mary's? Lol

[RanRan79]

14074
I'm surprised they didn't sing "Baby Love" on Ed Sullivan. It seemed like they performed that song on hundreds of TV shows.

It was probably the other song they had scheduled, which was cut, on that first appearance.

[johnjeb]

Eric could very well be wrong and/or confused. I looked at an Ed Sullivan show episode guide and I don't see an instance where the Animals and the Supremes appear on the same episode.

Just checked IMDb to review The Animals TV appearances for the latter part of the 1960s.

Of their 5 Sullivan appearances listed the only female group listed on one of the shows was The McGuire Sisters. They were on Shindig! a couple of times. The female group listed was, of course, The Blossoms. They appeared on Where The Action Is and the female group on that show was The Shangri-Las. I also checked their appearances on Mike Douglas but there was no listing of any female groups on the same shows.

I didn't check all their TV appearances listed and I didn't think of checking for solo female vocalists with background singers who may have performed on the same show [[although I can't think of any who would have BG singers with them other than Aretha).

Here is the IMDb link [[you have to scroll down to "SELF"):

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1135151/

[TomatoTom123]

Maybe I'm stupid- and in this case if you honestly feel that's true, you have my permission to go there without me coming for you:p- but how is it that you can state with such certainty that a fight between Flo and Diana happened? You've stated countless times that during the time in question you were a small child. Now if you saw them throwing hands, then I understand your declaration. But if you're assuming they had a fight because "everybody" at Motown had fights, I don't understand how you can come to that conclusion. Where are the eyewitnesses? Who are they? And who believes for one moment that Gordy would have ever stood for Florence beating up on his precious Diana? You can't have the lead singer of the world's most famous female group onstage or on television black, blue and scratched up. Gordy would have flipped. And none of the principals- Gordy, Flo, Diana or Mary- mention Florence physically attacking anyone as a reason for the problems in the group. All of that leads me to believe that a physical fight between these two women was first reported to add drama to a story where the drama was already exaggerated and subsequently repeated because, well quite frankly, people love the image of two Black women physically fighting each other. Until Gordy, Diana or Mary or a legit eyewitness says this happened [[I hate to go here but...) FAKE NEWS.


Whatever! This is not court case. It all happened. LOL!

HOLY MOLY RanRan can you not just accept that Marv is right and move on? I honestly don't know what's up with you today. We all know that Marv is the truth, I mean, wtf do you actually want from him? Evidence? Factual information? Geez. You know, I didn't want to go there but I actually find your behaviour in this thread quite unfitting of an SDF member. Shame on you. :p

[sup_fan]

It was probably the other song they had scheduled, which was cut, on that first appearance.

I’ve always wondered what the cut song was. Anyone With a Heart, I am woman. Maybe people? Or lovelight.

[midnightman]

14074
I'm surprised they didn't sing "Baby Love" on Ed Sullivan. It seemed like they performed that song on hundreds of TV shows.

Baby Love must've been rehearsed for the first appearance but was scrapped.

[reese]

I’ve always wondered what the cut song was. Anyone With a Heart, I am woman. Maybe people? Or lovelight.

I wouldn't be surprised if it was I AM WOMAN or PEOPLE, although the latter might have been too long.

Listening closely to the FAREWELL album, Diana mentions that they performed I AM WOMAN on the Steve Allen show. Too bad the clip hasn't surfaced as of yet.

[captainjames]

HOLY MOLY RanRan can you not just accept that Marv is right and move on? I honestly don't know what's up with you today. We all know that Marv is the truth, I mean, wtf do you actually want from him? Evidence? Factual information? Geez. You know, I didn't want to go there but I actually find your behaviour in this thread quite unfitting of an SDF member. Shame on you. :p

Diana wrote another book which she decided to pull but I think it will see the light of day. Also I get the impression from those that knew Diana back in the 50's and the 60's will tell you she was not going to take a beat down without you leaving with some marks or you knowing she was there. Honestly, I don't think there was ever any physical fights with Flo and Diana especially when Flo said there weren't.

If memory serves me right Mary first try at her book was sent back because it was not hot enough.

[midnightman]

^ Yeah I read that too. Apparently the details weren't "juicy" for publication. And yeah Flo & Diana never had no drag down fights. If Flo claimed there were no fights between them, why deny her claim? It came from her mouth!

[TheMotownManiac]

1) I do believe Flo May have attacked Diana physically and, sadly, if true, is grounds for dismissal right there. She was taking speed to lose weight and it can make you nuts. Plus, she might have been angry doing YCHL when she wasn’t on the single. Who knows?

2)The hands over the face thing, to me, is absurd. There’s no reason to do it, except to be bitchy, as it achieves nothing. But, maybe she was being bitchy - as, They all were at times [[per Cindy.)

3) There are other pregnancies besides Rhonda that Mary could have, but didn’t mention in her book. Tijuana, anyone?

4) There are outright lies, fabrications and heavy handed, one-sided agenda-filled reminisinces in both of Mary’s books that have been discussed and proven in this very forum. Martha also has 3 versions of the origin of Vandellas’ name - plus, she states that after WDOLG, HDH never worked with her group again. There are lots of things people write in books that may not be true, that other people want to believe. I don’t know of any falsehoods in Ross’ Book, but there’s not a lot of anything in her book period
. I tend to believe most things unless it seems fishy or is disproven.

[midnightman]

Flo was taking speed?! WOW...

Motown really didn't take care of their artists, did they? But yeah, I think when Flo got messed up with chemicals, it made her a different person. They talked about it on Unsung.

People need to be reminded the Supremes were just 20, 21 years old when they suddenly became an internationally known act, of course they're gonna be immature at times...

From that '73 Supremes clip, there definitely seems to still be some drama associated with them. :/

[milven]

Diana wrote another book which she decided to pull but I think it will see the light of day.....

If memory serves me right Mary first try at her book was sent back because it was not hot enough.

I remember pre-ordering Diana's book on Amazon, but it's release date was changed and then cancelled. Just my opinion, but I don't Diana was in a good place when it was decided to write this book. She had second thoughts about it after her health improved and decided not to go negative. The book was never released. Diana continued her successful career with concerts and receiving prestigious awards

As for Mary, as you said, she did not have enough dirt in her book, and it was sent back to her for revisions. When she went on TV shows to promote the book, naturally, the interviewers were only interested in what she said about Diana - things that probably were added to the book during the revision. But, in the interviews, Mary tried to put a good spin on it making excuses or giving reasons why Diana did or said something. It was kind of aggravating to watch these interviews because I figured as long as she wrote it, own it and discuss it in the same way that you did in the book.

But with the passage of time, I can see that Mary did not want to go negative on Diana and probably did it because of the publishers demands - and perhaps because of her financial situtation at the time.

And Diana has never gone negative on Mary except the follow-up interview with Barbara Walters after Mary's interview the night before.

So maybe there still is a bond between the two ladies, even though they now lead different lives and do not socialize with each other.

Maybe it is just us, the fans, who have the problem

[thanxal]

Maybe it is just us, the fans, who have the problem
Spot on, Milven.

[RanRan79]

HOLY MOLY RanRan can you not just accept that Marv is right and move on? I honestly don't know what's up with you today. We all know that Marv is the truth, I mean, wtf do you actually want from him? Evidence? Factual information? Geez. You know, I didn't want to go there but I actually find your behaviour in this thread quite unfitting of an SDF member. Shame on you. :p

Thank you Tom for putting me in my place! I don't know what I was thinking. In my naivete I just assumed that if you make a claim you should be able to back it up. Marv has definitely taught me that this is unnecessary at best, and downright disrespectful to be asked of it, at worst. I now know better.

Btw, Mary Wilson was in Elvis' bathroom when his body was found. When questioned by police she claimed that she thought it was Tom Jones' bathroom. To keep her name out of the papers, she slept with the cops. Today she refuses to answer questions regarding the whole thing and completely omitted the entire episode from both of her books.;)

[RanRan79]

Diana wrote another book which she decided to pull but I think it will see the light of day. Also I get the impression from those that knew Diana back in the 50's and the 60's will tell you she was not going to take a beat down without you leaving with some marks or you knowing she was there. Honestly, I don't think there was ever any physical fights with Flo and Diana especially when Flo said there weren't.

If memory serves me right Mary first try at her book was sent back because it was not hot enough.

Its interesting to me that Mary's descriptions of Diana's physical altercations [[or almost physical) are of a young woman who wasn't afraid to throw hands. Yet Patti Labelle describes a scared punk, shaking in her boots over an outfit. And Martha Reeves describes a scary girl running to the phone to call Mr. Gordy. Something aint adding up. Diana just don't seem to me like the type who was scared of too many people.

Anybody else question the validity of Bettye Lavette's claim that Sharon Holland beat Diana up in a ballroom full of people? Why was this the first we've heard of it? Why is every other account of Diana and Sharon, including Mary's, is that there was a confrontation and soon after Diana left that woman's husband alone, but nothing about an actual fight?

[RanRan79]

1) I do believe Flo May have attacked Diana physically and, sadly, if true, is grounds for dismissal right there. She was taking speed to lose weight and it can make you nuts.

But that's one of the reasons I used to back up my opinion that there never was a fight because it surely would have been grounds for dismissal and at no time was this ever mentioned as a reason for firing Florence. No doubt Flo threatened to put her foot up Diana's ass [[and some other folks asses too) but I just don't believe it ever happened.

[midnightman]

Milven is absolutely right.

[RanRan79]

Flo was taking speed?! WOW...

Motown really didn't take care of their artists, did they?

At that time "speed" was any number of drugs that were prescribed for weight loss. Women all over the country were taken them and they were viewed as harmless. No one at Motown would've thought anything of Florence's use of them. I suspect many of the women at Motown probably used them. Women then, as now, had to deal with so much regarding body image. Its a shame.

[TomatoTom123]

Thank you Tom for putting me in my place! I don't know what I was thinking. In my naivete I just assumed that if you make a claim you should be able to back it up. Marv has definitely taught me that this is unnecessary at best, and downright disrespectful to be asked of it, at worst. I now know better.

Btw, Mary Wilson was in Elvis' bathroom when his body was found. When questioned by police she claimed that she thought it was Tom Jones' bathroom. To keep her name out of the papers, she slept with the cops. Today she refuses to answer questions regarding the whole thing and completely omitted the entire episode from both of her books.;)

AH! Finally some sense out of you RanRan! None of that "evidence" or "back up your claims" nonsense. Phew. I have to say your constant desire for "facts" and the so-called "truth", whatever that is, was becoming particularly grating.

And of course if you want the real story, which I couldn't even possibly begin to tell you here, I, as the unborn foetus friend, saw it all first hand. And, as unlikely as it may seem, I was actually there on the night of Elvis' death as you describe. I tell you RanRan most people wouldn't believe what went down that night. It was like an episode of Fargo. But real. :rolleyes:

[marv2]

Btw, Mary Wilson was in Elvis' bathroom when his body was found. When questioned by police she claimed that she thought it was Tom Jones' bathroom. To keep her name out of the papers, she slept with the cops. Today she refuses to answer questions regarding the whole thing and completely omitted the entire episode from both of her books.;)

No she wasn't . Elvis died in August 1977, Mary was winding up her tour of South America with Cindy Birdsong and Debbie Sharpe. Then they all went back to Los Angeles.

[captainjames]

LOL
you guys are nuts....
my only point is whats the point of mentioning something that no one else knows if you cant tell where you heard that information. Flo said it didn't happen so the only other person who would know for sure would be Diana. Unless of course it happen on the corner of Woodward where everyone passing by that day saw it.

[TomatoTom123]

No she wasn't . Elvis died in August 1977, Mary was winding up her tour of South America with Cindy Birdsong and Debbie Sharpe. Then they all went back to Los Angeles.

Thanks for the info Marv :rolleyes:

[milven]

I love your sarcasm RanRan79, even if there are some do not get it :)

[Bluebrock]

Thank you Tom for putting me in my place! I don't know what I was thinking. In my naivete I just assumed that if you make a claim you should be able to back it up. Marv has definitely taught me that this is unnecessary at best, and downright disrespectful to be asked of it, at worst. I now know better.

Btw, Mary Wilson was in Elvis' bathroom when his body was found. When questioned by police she claimed that she thought it was Tom Jones' bathroom. To keep her name out of the papers, she slept with the cops. Today she refuses to answer questions regarding the whole thing and completely omitted the entire episode from both of her books.;)
Ha ha. You guys are too much. I love the bantering between TomatoTom123 and yourself, but how dare either of you question Marv's version of the truth. How can you even dare to question the integrity of such a balanced and unbiased individual? You can quit the discussion. Marv is the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. Case closed. Amen to that!

[imakicola]

People keep mentioning CINDY BIRDSONG’S version of events. When did Cindy ever really say anything ever about bitchiness of people!?!

[RanRan79]

AH! Finally some sense out of you RanRan! None of that "evidence" or "back up your claims" nonsense. Phew. I have to say your constant desire for "facts" and the so-called "truth", whatever that is, was becoming particularly grating.

And of course if you want the real story, which I couldn't even possibly begin to tell you here, I, as the unborn foetus friend, saw it all first hand. And, as unlikely as it may seem, I was actually there on the night of Elvis' death as you describe. I tell you RanRan most people wouldn't believe what went down that night. It was like an episode of Fargo. But real. :rolleyes:

Oh I can believe it. Somebody told me- I can't say who told me out of respect for them- about all of things that went on that night. It was the same person who told me about Mary being there. There's so much more I could say about it but it would just upset too many people here.

[RanRan79]

No she wasn't . Elvis died in August 1977, Mary was winding up her tour of South America with Cindy Birdsong and Debbie Sharpe. Then they all went back to Los Angeles.

Look, I'm just telling you what I know. Mary wasn't in no South America. I know what really went down and you can believe what you want. I've talked to people and none of them are liars.

[RanRan79]

LOL
you guys are nuts....
my only point is whats the point of mentioning something that no one else knows if you cant tell where you heard that information. Flo said it didn't happen so the only other person who would know for sure would be Diana. Unless of course it happen on the corner of Woodward where everyone passing by that day saw it.

Exactly. Which is a tell tale sign that the person spreading the information made it up. If you genuinely have respect for someone and don't wish to put their name on something they said, one would keep said information to him/herself.

[RanRan79]

I love your sarcasm RanRan79, even if there are some do not get it :)

What is this sarcasm you speak of?:cool:

[TomatoTom123]

Oh I can believe it. Somebody told me- I can't say who told me out of respect for them- about all of things that went on that night. It was the same person who told me about Mary being there. There's so much more I could say about it but it would just upset too many people here.

I completely understand RanRan. Sometimes I wish I cared about proving things to those who choose not to believe, but unfortunately for them, I don't. Much like you, I am all about the truth and if you don't believe me, well.........

[TheMotownManiac]

I remember pre-ordering Diana's book on Amazon, but it's release date was changed and then cancelled. Just my opinion, but I don't Diana was in a good place when it was decided to write this book. She had second thoughts about it after her health improved and decided not to go negative. The book was never released. Diana continued her successful career with concerts and receiving prestigious awards

As for Mary, as you said, she did not have enough dirt in her book, and it was sent back to her for revisions. When she went on TV shows to promote the book, naturally, the interviewers were only interested in what she said about Diana - things that probably were added to the book during the revision. But, in the interviews, Mary tried to put a good spin on it making excuses or giving reasons why Diana did or said something. It was kind of aggravating to watch these interviews because I figured as long as she wrote it, own it and discuss it in the same way that you did in the book.

But with the passage of time, I can see that Mary did not want to go negative on Diana and probably did it because of the publishers demands - and perhaps because of her financial situtation at the time.

And Diana has never gone negative on Mary except the follow-up interview with Barbara Walters after Mary's interview the night before.

So maybe there still is a bond between the two ladies, even though they now lead different lives and do not socialize with each other.

Maybe it is just us, the fans, who have the problem

oh, please....Mary spent all this time dissing Ross, but then said stuff like, “but I love her - she’d my sister and you don’t always approve of everything they do - even if it rhymes with witch.” She knew exactly what was in the book and how it would be received and she played it perfectly. “Yes, Diane did stab the Lindbergh baby in the heart, but I’m not judging my sister, I’m just telling what happened. I don’t want people to think less of her.”

[TheMotownManiac]

But that's one of the reasons I used to back up my opinion that there never was a fight because it surely would have been grounds for dismissal and at no time was this ever mentioned as a reason for firing Florence. No doubt Flo threatened to put her foot up Diana's ass [[and some other folks asses too) but I just don't believe it ever happened.

i see your point, but I still think there was a physical issue - I don’t know of course, and believe me, I’ve tried to gingerly find out from both Mary and Cindy, but it’s too nosey and gossipy to outright ask - even for me! Flo was getting bigger and taking diet pills and that stuff effects your mood. Mix that with tension, exhaustion, anger and her other issues, it could happen - and even if it did, Flo was still too important to kick out. You don’t change a winning formula unless you absolutely have to. Ask Coke. I’ve heard that Diana was quite the Tom-boy Back In the day.......


I believe the Sharon Holland story also.

[TheMotownManiac]

At that time "speed" was any number of drugs that were prescribed for weight loss. Women all over the country were taken them and they were viewed as harmless. No one at Motown would've thought anything of Florence's use of them. I suspect many of the women at Motown probably used them. Women then, as now, had to deal with so much regarding body image. Its a shame.

very true....and Flo was in the world spotlight....... it might not have mattered as much if the gowns didn’t have to fit. Plus, people didn’t think of booze having calories back then - so it’s possible Flo was wondering where the fain was coming from.

[TheMotownManiac]

Thank you Tom for putting me in my place! I don't know what I was thinking. In my naivete I just assumed that if you make a claim you should be able to back it up. Marv has definitely taught me that this is unnecessary at best, and downright disrespectful to be asked of it, at worst. I now know better.

Btw, Mary Wilson was in Elvis' bathroom when his body was found. When questioned by police she claimed that she thought it was Tom Jones' bathroom. To keep her name out of the papers, she slept with the cops. Today she refuses to answer questions regarding the whole thing and completely omitted the entire episode from both of her books.;)

priceless.

[TomatoTom123]

Look, I'm just telling you what I know. Mary wasn't in no South America. I know what really went down and you can believe what you want. I've talked to people and none of them are liars.

South America? Oh please. It is common knowledge that after the Elvis incident Mary fled the USA to live in the Middle East. By 1978 she was an active player in the Iranian Revolution. It was thanks in part to her efforts as a revolutionary that 2,500 years of rule by the Persian monarchy came to an end. We all know this.

Now I could say more but for fear of further destabilising the politico-religious situation in the Middle East I have to stop. In fact I've probably said too much already. But this is all true and that's that! And don't even get me started about Diana and the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan, quite frankly that's too much for an internet forum post.

[marv2]

South America? Oh please. It is common knowledge that after the Elvis incident Mary fled the USA to live in the Middle East. By 1978 she was an active player in the Iranian Revolution. It was thanks in part to her efforts as a revolutionary that 2,500 years of rule by the Persian monarchy came to an end. We all know this.

Now I could say more but for fear of further destabilising the politico-religious situation in the Middle East I have to stop. In fact I've probably said too much already. But this is all true and that's that! And don't even get me started about Diana and the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan, quite frankly that's too much for an internet forum post.

No, no, no! You have it wrong. After Elvis died on the toilet at his house [[which Mary Wilson nor anyone else had anything to do with. He was hooked on drugs....) Mary was waiting to deliver her baby and begin putting together her solo act. She began auditioning back up singers in September 1977. By 1978 Mary was on tour in the U.K. and playing the London Palladium with Kaaren Ragland and Karen Jackson as her background singers. I was in college and all the cool Iranian students I had met and became friends with, had to leave and go home to Iran.

Mary did not start touring in the Middle East until late 1983 with Robin Alexander and Karen Jackson, along with Jerome Spearman and Duke Billingslea who were in her band at the time. They played Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, Egypt etc,etc. So yes, you have your information all wrong when it comes to Mary Wilson and I don't mean just the dates!

[Boogiedown]

hee hee hee

[RanRan79]

We know the truth about Mary. She was there. Somebody told me. Those are the facts.

[TheMotownManiac]

Of course that rumor has been going around for years and years, but I’m still not 100% buying it as fact....I’m just glad that Mary didn’t OD with him. But what would she have been doing in Tennessee? He was about to go on tour - maybe he was auditioning bg singers.