Mary Wilson.........

[mowsville]

Hi guys...Reflections :The Supremes Legacy~ have just posted a clip of Mary Wilson singing "You Danced My Heart Around The Stars" saying that the song was produced by Gus Dudgeon plus a few others and that they had never seen the light of day but they will do very soon...is Mary's solo album getting not only a release at last but an expanded release at that...any info anyone?????

[reese]

In an earlier post, that Facebook page said that Mary had given the four unreleased Dudgeon masters to Sweet Feet Music, the same company that released her recent TIME TO MOVE ON. Supposedly something might be released between the summer and fall of this year.

[marv2]

This is great. One of the co-writers of the song, talented poet and spoken word artist, Stevie Kalinich contacted me about a year ago and explained that he and Ken Hirsch wrote the song especially for Mary and .....wow! Did she ever do it justice!

[marv2]

In an earlier post, that Facebook page said that Mary had given the four unreleased Dudgeon masters to Sweet Feet Music, the same company that released her recent TIME TO MOVE ON. Supposedly something might be released between the summer and fall of this year.

I am very excited and curious as to what they will do to those songs.

[marv2]

It would be great if they could also formally release one of the more recent remixes of "Red Hot".

[marv2]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mypa4-NNMUk

[longtimefan]

Hi guys...Reflections :The Supremes Legacy~ have just posted a clip of Mary Wilson singing "You Danced My Heart Around The Stars" saying that the song was produced by Gus Dudgeon plus a few others and that they had never seen the light of day but they will do very soon...is Mary's solo album getting not only a release at last but an expanded release at that...any info anyone?????

“You Danced My Heart Around the Stars” was released on CD in 2015 [[“California Feeling 2”).

“Pick Up The Pieces” was released in the 80s on a Motown Compilation CD titled “Motown Year By Year 1980.”

[johnny_raven]

“You Danced My Heart Around the Stars” was released on CD in 2015 [[“California Feeling 2”).

“Pick Up The Pieces” was released in the 80s on a Motown Compilation CD titled “Motown Year By Year 1980.”

And "You're The Light That Guides My Way" was released on Soul Survivors 2 in 1998.

[marv2]

"Midnight Dancer" was released as a single in Europe.

[jobeterob]

Still will be nice if these songs get some more exposure; many people don't know them. And we are kind of at the now or never stage with all the Motown artists ageing.

[sup_fan]

was Pick Up The Pieces ever officially released in the US as a single? I thought only Red Hot was released

[sup_fan]

haha - hit submit too soon :)

the MW album is not her best work but not terrible either. the four Gus tracks though are excellent an a sad, missed opportunity. can only imagine if where released and part of a second album

after Mary left the group in June 77, what sparked the legal battle? was she still under contract to Motown as a supreme? if she was no longer in the group, was she in the process of renegotiating her contract to be a solo artist on the label?

[blackguy69]

If I’m correct, both Mary and Cindy were under contract as the Supremes til spring 1978. The lawsuit started when the South American tour wasn’t cancelled and Scherrie and Susaye was going. Promoters were threatening to sue Mary. She asked them to come back but they said without Pedro. She asked Lynda but she wanted too much money. That’s when Cindy came on board and they found Debbie Sharpe. I’m guessing Motown didn’t like what Mary did and threatened to sue. And Mary countered. Plus Mary was 7 months pregnant with Pedro jr.

[marv2]

If I’m correct, both Mary and Cindy were under contract as the Supremes til spring 1978. The lawsuit started when the South American tour wasn’t cancelled and Scherrie and Susaye was going. Promoters were threatening to sue Mary. She asked them to come back but they said without Pedro. She asked Lynda but she wanted too much money. That’s when Cindy came on board and they found Debbie Sharpe. I’m guessing Motown didn’t like what Mary did and threatened to sue. And Mary countered. Plus Mary was 7 months pregnant with Pedro jr.

Cindy Birdsong was under contract through the end of 1977. Mary was officially finished with the Supremes as of June 12, 1977. She was still signed to Motown as single artist [[until she found out that it was inactive). Scherrie and Susaye were also still signed to Motown as "Supremes". The lawsuit of Wilson v Motown had nothing to do with the South American Tour, but with the fact that Motown had taken advantage of Mary Wilson [[Florence Ballard and Diana Ross) by signing them illegally as they were all underage and had no legal representation prior to contract signing [[Mary's mother couldn't even read or write). That violated California labor laws for starters. There were a lot of other things involved in this lawsuit including the fact that Motown had illegally "replaced" Mary on some Supremes recordings between 1968-69, which according to her contract they could not due if she was not ill and available to record. etc,etc. Mary had strong case. Motown settled with her by offering her a new solo contract. Motown never threaten to sue Mary at that time.

[blackguy69]

Mary herself said she and Cindy were still under contact as the supremes

[blackguy69]

And I know the lawsuit has nothing to do with the tour.

[marv2]

And I know the lawsuit has nothing to do with the tour.

So what do you think about her Gus Dudgeon tracks finally being released?

[Roberta75]

So what do you think about her Gus Dudgeon tracks finally being released?

In an earlier post, that Facebook page said that Mary had given the four unreleased Dudgeon masters to Sweet Feet Music, the same company that released her recent TIME TO MOVE ON. Supposedly something might be released between the summer and fall of this year.

[luke]

I think one of the big points of the lawsuit was conflict of interest per Motown recording her and having managed her/ the Supremes , right?

[marv2]

I think one of the big points of the lawsuit was conflict of interest per Motown recording her and having managed her/ the Supremes , right?

Exactly. They, Motown use to negotiate Mary and the Supremes contracts for them.....with themselves! LOL!!!!

[jobeterob]

Here is the Facebook post:


Sweet Feet Music
Like Page
February 19 at 1:46pm
Mary Wilson and Sweet feet Music had a great time at The Nikko . Get ready for A RED HOT summer and fall. Mary gave me THE MASTERS of FOUR RARE unreleased tracks , giving them a good listen and then off to JCK Music for Digital Remastering .
Keep it sweet . #BeSupreme

[sup_fan]

i understand Mary's suit against Motown and what it entailed. but my assumption is that her RESPONDED to a lawsuit from motown with her suit. was motown's lawsuit about her S American tour as a Supreme? what was the legal action motown was bringing against her, considering she was a signed artist on the roster.

[gman]

Mary performed all 4 of those songs on a UK TV show called Black Stage I think...the performances are youtube....You Danced My Heart is a masterpiece....Love Talk and Save Me are also nice songs...I am a CCR fan and find Mary's Green River horrible and unlistenable. It strips Linda Ronstadt for her version of Tumblin' Dice of my "Worst Cover Ever" trophy.

[marv2]

i understand Mary's suit against Motown and what it entailed. but my assumption is that her RESPONDED to a lawsuit from motown with her suit. was motown's lawsuit about her S American tour as a Supreme? what was the legal action motown was bringing against her, considering she was a signed artist on the roster.


No Mary Wilson's lawsuit was not a counter suit to one Motown brought against her. Motown did not file a suit against Mary. In regards to that South American tour in the Summer of 1977, I believe you are referring to something you may have read about Motown might consider suing club owners for billing Mary's act as "The Supremes". Motown did not sue them. Mary's lawsuit in 1978 was for the reasons I mentioned above.

[marv2]

Mary performed all 4 of those songs on a UK TV show called Black Stage I think...the performances are youtube....You Danced My Heart is a masterpiece....Love Talk and Save Me are also nice songs...I am a CCR fan and find Mary's Green River horrible and unlistenable. It strips Linda Ronstadt for her version of Tumblin' Dice of my "Worst Cover Ever" trophy.

I liked "Green River" but I do not like how she performed it on that show. I like how she did it on other shows and I like the audio recording just fine.

[marv2]

I think Sweet Feet could really do a great job of updating "Save Me". I would also think it would be a good idea to have Mary re-record parts of the song to update it.

[sup_fan]

No Mary Wilson's lawsuit was not a counter suit to one Motown brought against her. Motown did not file a suit against Mary. In regards to that South American tour in the Summer of 1977, I believe you are referring to something you may have read about Motown might consider suing club owners for billing Mary's act as "The Supremes". Motown did not sue them. Mary's lawsuit in 1978 was for the reasons I mentioned above.

ah gotcha! id read online something about Motown suing mary following the SA tour, which I thought strange. I would understand if there were conflicts between Scherrie/Susaye and Motown and mary over this.

Mary's suit was a strong one, with a lot of important issues addressed in it. But one has to wonder if she should or shouldn't have launched it. Was Motown in summer of 77 doing anything to move mary into a solo career? was there any activity with producers? Seems like she should have clearly understood that if she filed such as grievance it would all but destroy any hope of a future successful career. And even if the did offer a solo contract, she should have been more than savvy enough with Motown's behavior to realize any solo work would simply be token at best. that they'd never really promote or develop her as an artist.

[sup_fan]

Mary performed all 4 of those songs on a UK TV show called Black Stage I think...the performances are youtube....You Danced My Heart is a masterpiece....Love Talk and Save Me are also nice songs...I am a CCR fan and find Mary's Green River horrible and unlistenable. It strips Linda Ronstadt for her version of Tumblin' Dice of my "Worst Cover Ever" trophy.

all four songs are strong. You Danced is absolutely a masterpiece. she should simply amazing and it's one of the best performances ever [[prior or since) that mary has waxed. this should have been her "Ain't No Mountain" IMO

Save Me is my next favorite and she sounds great here too. this would have been a strong follow up to the lead single of You Danced.

[thanxal]

all four songs are strong. You Danced is absolutely a masterpiece. she should simply amazing and it's one of the best performances ever [[prior or since) that mary has waxed. this should have been her "Ain't No Mountain" IMO

Save Me is my next favorite and she sounds great here too. this would have been a strong follow up to the lead single of You Danced.
I do hope the plan is to reisssue MW solo with these songs added as bonus tracks. I’ve been listening to mp3 rips from vinyl of her solo album for too long!

[Circa 1824]

You danced my heart around the Stars is the most awkward and ridiculous song title ever, besides Buttered Popcorn. Mary’s vocal was ...... well .... unpleasant.

[marv2]

ah gotcha! id read online something about Motown suing mary following the SA tour, which I thought strange. I would understand if there were conflicts between Scherrie/Susaye and Motown and mary over this.

Mary's suit was a strong one, with a lot of important issues addressed in it. But one has to wonder if she should or shouldn't have launched it. Was Motown in summer of 77 doing anything to move mary into a solo career? was there any activity with producers? Seems like she should have clearly understood that if she filed such as grievance it would all but destroy any hope of a future successful career. And even if the did offer a solo contract, she should have been more than savvy enough with Motown's behavior to realize any solo work would simply be token at best. that they'd never really promote or develop her as an artist.

Motown knew Mary Wilson was leaving the Supremes to go solo in 1977. It made the news around the World, so they knew. After the album that was to be produced by Marvin Gaye never materialized, Motown did not have any concrete recording plans set up for Wilson in '77 as far as I know. She was almost forced to do what she did. Remember, they screwed her out of full ownership of the Supremes name in 1974. Mary also learned to act from a stance of strength rather than just emotion knowing what happened to Florence Ballard. Still she came out triumphant. That Motown no longer exists and she's got her next show to do here in 2018! LOL! I love it!

[motony]

I'll be seeing Mary along with Martha Reeves tomorrow in Daytona Beach.

[marv2]

I'll be seeing Mary along with Martha Reeves tomorrow in Daytona Beach.

I know you will enjoy it. Two of my favorite ladies!

[helga]

Too bad Universal did not get their hands on these tapes. I would have preferred to have seen these four tracks released with her 1979 solo album, but I suppose Mary was waiting on Universal to finally green light a solo collection and we all know how it's been with Motown releases lately...

[gman]

Red Hot grew on me, but only after I saw Mary perform it live....first in 1985. Then I got the 12" and that arrangement is much closer to the live version she was doing. She really worked the song live and I missed it when she cut it from her shows. A Song For You/ How Lucky Can You Get were also stand outs of her live performances. As far as Supremes songs go....Reflections, Stoned Love and Someday We'll Be Together were my favorites. Incidentally, these were performed in full and not part of a fast paced medley. As much as I love the group in all units, the live shows with the speedy arrangements and the overuse of medleys in general were an annoyance and always left me with a feeling of..."What if..."

[garyr]

I am a CCR fan and find Mary's Green River horrible and unlistenable. It strips Linda Ronstadt for her version of Tumblin' Dice of my "Worst Cover Ever" trophy.

Worst cover ever is the Rita Coolidge version of "The Way You Do The Things You Do". She sucks all the life out of this joyful, upbeat classic written by Smokey for the Temps. To add insult to injury she leaves out the best line in the song, "The way you stole my heart you know you coulda been a cool crook".

[aarondillon2011@gmail.com]

Im def buying when it comes out. I know people criticize her voice but I love Marys voice :-)

[marv2]

Im def buying when it comes out. I know people criticize her voice but I love Marys voice :-)

I love it too. She can sing for me anytime.

[marybrewster]

I've read and reread the post from Sweet Feet Music; unless I'm missing something, is everyone just assuming it's the Gus tracks? This was never mentioned outside of the fact that it's four unreleased tracks. I suppose it's easy to connect A and B, but is it possible that it's four other tracks?

[marv2]

I've read and reread the post from Sweet Feet Music; unless I'm missing something, is everyone just assuming it's the Gus tracks? This was never mentioned outside of the fact that it's four unreleased tracks. I suppose it's easy to connect A and B, but is it possible that it's four other tracks?

Her Atlantic Records demos were great as well. If those are cleaned up and released I'd be just as happy.

[TheMotownManiac]

Cindy Birdsong was under contract through the end of 1977. Mary was officially finished with the Supremes as of June 12, 1977. She was still signed to Motown as single artist [[until she found out that it was inactive). Scherrie and Susaye were also still signed to Motown as "Supremes". The lawsuit of Wilson v Motown had nothing to do with the South American Tour, but with the fact that Motown had taken advantage of Mary Wilson [[Florence Ballard and Diana Ross) by signing them illegally as they were all underage and had no legal representation prior to contract signing [[Mary's mother couldn't even read or write). That violated California labor laws for starters. There were a lot of other things involved in this lawsuit including the fact that Motown had illegally "replaced" Mary on some Supremes recordings between 1968-69, which according to her contract they could not due if she was not ill and available to record. etc,etc. Mary had strong case. Motown settled with her by offering her a new solo contract. Motown never threaten to sue Mary at that time.

marv, you need some correcting.
‘First, there is no contract law anywhere requiring legal representation. Period.

Second, no child labor laws were broken as there was no labor involved [[recording as an artist is not labor - also every kid under age 14-16, depending on the state, who had recorded would be in violation.) their parents/guardians were required for this reason. It is not Motown fault Johnnie Mae was illiterate - reading tests are not required to sign contracts how was Motown supposed to know she was illiterate and why would the onos not be on Mary to correct the situation with someone who could read? You can’t blame Motown for everything.

Third, how on earth would a Michigan contract signed in 1961 in Violate a s law in California? DMF signed new contracts, also in Michigan, as adults, in 1965.

‘’Fourth, as Motown owned The Supremes, and had total control of the group, how could they be violating anything replacing Mary in ‘68&69? What about the dozens of tracks before and after without Mary on them?

Mary did not gave a strong case, she didn’t have ANY case at all. Motown only settled with offering that joke solo contract to avoid legal fees. If Mary had a lick of sense, she would never, ever have trusted Motown to have her best interest at heart when she wasn’t even allowed to lead the group for a single night. They chose a neophyte Supreme with not one show under her belt to to the chore for ailing Jean. Maybe Pedro had already shopped Mary around and found no takers, so a deal with Motown was better than no deal at all.

Where do you get this stuff?

[TheMotownManiac]

I’m so jealous! How was the show? How long were their sets? Did they sing together at all? What did they sing?

[TheMotownManiac]

Motown knew Mary Wilson was leaving the Supremes to go solo in 1977. It made the news around the World, so they knew. After the album that was to be produced by Marvin Gaye never materialized, Motown did not have any concrete recording plans set up for Wilson in '77 as far as I know. She was almost forced to do what she did. Remember, they screwed her out of full ownership of the Supremes name in 1974. Mary also learned to act from a stance of strength rather than just emotion knowing what happened to Florence Ballard. Still she came out triumphant. That Motown no longer exists and she's got her next show to do here in 2018! LOL! I love it!

Marv,

You bring a lot to this group, but child, how you do go on forgetting yourself!

mary was never screwed out of full ownership of the name as she had zero right to it in the first place. If she had, she would, at best, own a fourth with Diana, Barbara And Flo the others. If the name had been an asset, that asset would have been shared 4 ways at its inception, and since no one signed away their right to that asset when leaving the group, their ownership would have remained intact after they left. This naive assumption that Mary owned the name because she held on the longest is, at best, just plain wishful thinking.

‘‘Stance Of strength??????” Where? When? She had nothing and got nothing. I don’t agree that Mary learned a damn thing from Flo’s plight: she, like Flo agreed to terms she later regretted and, worse, exactly like Flo, allowed her know-nothing hubby to helm her career with disasterous results. Mary followed Flo’s footsteps right into oblivion. If she hadn’t dumped cowardly wife beating Pedro and taken over her career herself, she’d probably still be in oblivion - but she fought, adjusted, blossomed and succeeded all without the help of Pedro and Motown [[although Motown was an essential element to her career boosting books.)

[TheMotownManiac]

You danced my heart around the Stars is the most awkward and ridiculous song title ever, besides Buttered Popcorn. Mary’s vocal was ...... well .... unpleasant.
I disagree completely. The title, while hardly trendy or clever, IS romantic. I think Mary’s vocal is excellent. Her read doesn’t break any new ground for innovation, but she’s quite strong and unusually radio friendly. I think, had it been released in 1975, it would have been certified gold and given Mary a big boost. It was a little sappy for 1980, but I’ll get it was written years before.

[marv2]

marv, you need some correcting.
‘First, there is no contract law anywhere requiring legal representation. Period.

Second, no child labor laws were broken as there was no labor involved [[recording as an artist is not labor - also every kid under age 14-16, depending on the state, who had recorded would be in violation.) their parents/guardians were required for this reason. It is not Motown fault Johnnie Mae was illiterate - reading tests are not required to sign contracts how was Motown supposed to know she was illiterate and why would the onos not be on Mary to correct the situation with someone who could read? You can’t blame Motown for everything.

Third, how on earth would a Michigan contract signed in 1961 in Violate a s law in California? DMF signed new contracts, also in Michigan, as adults, in 1965.

‘’Fourth, as Motown owned The Supremes, and had total control of the group, how could they be violating anything replacing Mary in ‘68&69? What about the dozens of tracks before and after without Mary on them?

Mary did not gave a strong case, she didn’t have ANY case at all. Motown only settled with offering that joke solo contract to avoid legal fees. If Mary had a lick of sense, she would never, ever have trusted Motown to have her best interest at heart when she wasn’t even allowed to lead the group for a single night. They chose a neophyte Supreme with not one show under her belt to to the chore for ailing Jean. Maybe Pedro had already shopped Mary around and found no takers, so a deal with Motown was better than no deal at all.

Where do you get this stuff?

I am just sharing the facts. You cannot sign underage people to contracts. Everything I said is true and factual. Thanks.

[TheMotownManiac]

You better check with a lawyer - The Olson Twins had contracts. So did Jackie Coogan, so did Mc Cauly Culkin. Any child performer is under contract or they would be no reason to pay them. The Supremes were still in high school when they signed, they were not signed to do labor, but to record solely for Motown. And not in California.

In any case, they re-signed in 1965 as adults with basically the same bs so they had no reason to complain about the first one if they signed up for more of the same. At some point, the blame, if blame there be, needs to be on those agreeing to the terms.

[Roberta75]

I am just sharing the facts. You cannot sign underage people to contracts. Everything I said is true and factual. Thanks.

Your facts are wrong again. Gary Coleman and Miley Cyrus and Mayim Bialik and every kid thats been a regular on any TV sitcom or TV shows been signed to a contract.

[midnightman]

If the Supremes had chose to leave Motown in 1965, they could've done what Mary Wells did when she left. Mary signed as a 17-year-old. When her contract expired in 1964 after she turned 21, she hired a lawyer who told her that she could argue her contract with Motown was "invalid" because she was a minor at the time and that was how she got out of it. I believe Berry had the contract rules to change afterwards because he didn't wanna have any of his artists argue about contracts [[that didn't quite work with Stevie since he hired one of the smartest attorneys in the business, Vigoda, to have things go in Stevie's favor rather than Motown's).

Then again, the Supremes, when they renewed their contract in 1965, could've hired lawyers who told them "look, girls, your group's name is important, you need to make sure you get it trademarked so Mr. Gordy don't do nothing with that name". I'm sure that's how Otis and Melvin got "The Temptations" trademarked because how else were they gonna exist in the industry with Motown controlling their name?

They controlled the Marvelettes'. The Four Tops were the Four Tops BEFORE signing with Motown. I think Martha and the original Vandellas eventually got their name back in their possession [[not to mention a chunk of performing royalties they were probably denied when the group dissolved in 1972) after suing Motown in 1983 and 1989 [[Martha sued first and the original Vandellas - Rosalind and Annette - sued after; which probably explains why Martha didn't join Mary in the streaming bill push, just speculating).

But I think like the Marvelettes, the Supremes were LOYAL to Berry Gordy so they didn't question nothing. And since they were one of THE biggest acts of the '60s, they were wined and dined more than the other Motown acts who lived on crumbs compared to them save for Marvin [[who had the Gordy connections by technicality due to who he married), The Tempts and the Tops.

Also, when you start a group at 14, 15 years old, you're too naive. All you wanna do is sing. Education goes out the window since you're so determined to be a superstar. I mean, the Supremes each achieved their status before they were mature enough to understand what was really going on. They were all fresh out of high school when they made chart history. Just 20, 21 years old. Basically CHILD PRODIGIES. They bought into the "we are family" hype that the company told them so of course they weren't gonna question Motown about royalties or name possession or any kind of artistic control. Flo could've but she was going through so much, all she can do is rant and fight. Mary and Diana were so used to the good life and all of that [[by their own admissions), they couldn't really see how much people played them.

They each found out too late that they were being taken advantage of. Flo couldn't leave the label to use her Supremes connections to help out her post-Supremes career, Diana left with only $250,000 in her possession [[and she had three kids to support when she left) and had to invest in real estate and become a producer/executive producer of her concert shows, TV specials and albums and Mary basically had to do whatever she had to do to make sure she kept the finances right [[as far as I know, unlike Flo, she nor Diana never had to file bankruptcy and after Mary cut her husband Pedro out of the picture, she turned everything around for her).

I still wonder if Mary is still fighting to retain the Supremes name for her, the estate of Florence and Diana since if the name belongs to any of the members, it's those three.

And to note, they could've gotten control of things while still in Michigan rather than before they and the company relocated to California.

[TheMotownManiac]

Mary has given up on the name, which is why she went to plan B: Truth in Music. The Temptations made up their name and so they owned it. Motown employee made up The Supremes so Motown owns it. There’s nothing to discuss, sadly. I wish it were theirs. People have to stop blaming Motown for things their artists agreed to and later regretted. I love Mary but she does play the victim card well. I admire that she fights back as well. This streaming thing she’s doing is amazing - not exactly selfless, but so what? History may just honor her mightily for her work on behalf of artists. She will deserve it. It’s a commonality that could possibly even get her and Diana speaking.

[midnightman]

Oh yeah. I forgot Janie Bradford gave them the name...

And someone renamed the Marvelettes.

I guess I'm still in that belief that Flo named the Supremes when she didn't.

[sup_fan]

They chose a neophyte Supreme with not one show under her belt to to the chore for ailing Jean.

I believe part of the reason they asked Lynda to do the lead duties is 1) vocally she could handle them and 2) all of the orchestra charts were in a key that required a soprano lead voice. As much as I love Cindy, she would not have been able to step in for Jean even though she too is a soprano. Cindy had rarely sung ANY leads so it would have been out of the question for her to do an entire show. Mary probably could have pulled it off, more or less, except that she's an alto and would have required them completely transcribing all of the music which wasn't realistic.

[sup_fan]

If the Supremes had chose to leave Motown in 1965, they could've done what Mary Wells did when she left. Mary signed as a 17-year-old. When her contract expired in 1964 after she turned 21, she hired a lawyer who told her that she could argue her contract with Motown was "invalid" because she was a minor at the time and that was how she got out of it. I believe Berry had the contract rules to change afterwards because he didn't wanna have any of his artists argue about contracts [[that didn't quite work with Stevie since he hired one of the smartest attorneys in the business, Vigoda, to have things go in Stevie's favor rather than Motown's).

Then again, the Supremes, when they renewed their contract in 1965, could've hired lawyers who told them "look, girls, your group's name is important, you need to make sure you get it trademarked so Mr. Gordy don't do nothing with that name". I'm sure that's how Otis and Melvin got "The Temptations" trademarked because how else were they gonna exist in the industry with Motown controlling their name?

They controlled the Marvelettes'. The Four Tops were the Four Tops BEFORE signing with Motown. I think Martha and the original Vandellas eventually got their name back in their possession [[not to mention a chunk of performing royalties they were probably denied when the group dissolved in 1972) after suing Motown in 1983 and 1989 [[Martha sued first and the original Vandellas - Rosalind and Annette - sued after; which probably explains why Martha didn't join Mary in the streaming bill push, just speculating).

But I think like the Marvelettes, the Supremes were LOYAL to Berry Gordy so they didn't question nothing. And since they were one of THE biggest acts of the '60s, they were wined and dined more than the other Motown acts who lived on crumbs compared to them save for Marvin [[who had the Gordy connections by technicality due to who he married), The Tempts and the Tops.

Also, when you start a group at 14, 15 years old, you're too naive. All you wanna do is sing. Education goes out the window since you're so determined to be a superstar. I mean, the Supremes each achieved their status before they were mature enough to understand what was really going on. They were all fresh out of high school when they made chart history. Just 20, 21 years old. Basically CHILD PRODIGIES. They bought into the "we are family" hype that the company told them so of course they weren't gonna question Motown about royalties or name possession or any kind of artistic control. Flo could've but she was going through so much, all she can do is rant and fight. Mary and Diana were so used to the good life and all of that [[by their own admissions), they couldn't really see how much people played them.

They each found out too late that they were being taken advantage of. Flo couldn't leave the label to use her Supremes connections to help out her post-Supremes career, Diana left with only $250,000 in her possession [[and she had three kids to support when she left) and had to invest in real estate and become a producer/executive producer of her concert shows, TV specials and albums and Mary basically had to do whatever she had to do to make sure she kept the finances right [[as far as I know, unlike Flo, she nor Diana never had to file bankruptcy and after Mary cut her husband Pedro out of the picture, she turned everything around for her).

I still wonder if Mary is still fighting to retain the Supremes name for her, the estate of Florence and Diana since if the name belongs to any of the members, it's those three.

And to note, they could've gotten control of things while still in Michigan rather than before they and the company relocated to California.

Mary addresses much of this in her books:

1. the girls were young when they signed and therefore had to have a parent or guardian sign the contracts. being minors, they're not legally allowed to sign a contract on their own.
2. the Mary Wells example did exactly the opposite of what you propose - it clearly showed that Motown was the place to be and if you left, you could easily go under like Mary Wells did
3. during the Supreme's peak period [[64 - late 60s) they were getting everything they could possibly want. True, if they were savvy negotiators they could have pulled a stunt like HDH and tried to hold out for a better deal. But you're correct in that they were loyal to Gordy and Motown. they wanted to stay.
4. Motown PR dept fooled them too - the world was under the assumption that the Sups were rolling in dough and multi-millionaires. and that every song they released sold millions. Motown helped to develop this image by having limos everywhere, first class accommodations, furs, designer clothes, etc. Sometimes Gordy just gave the girls gifts. sometimes they were billed.
5. the supremes went from nothing to everything - it's hardly unique to the girls that they didn't save their money. to go from the gutter to glitter is very captivating and when you have the supposed ability to spend endlessly, most people do. human nature
6. the temps got their name in the 70s when they were leaving due to Smokey's intervention. the Supremes would never have been able to take their name because of connection to Diana Ross and Motown would never let another label have access to any of that legacy.

[sup_fan]

Mary has given up on the name, which is why she went to plan B: Truth in Music. The Temptations made up their name and so they owned it. Motown employee made up The Supremes so Motown owns it. There’s nothing to discuss, sadly. I wish it were theirs. People have to stop blaming Motown for things their artists agreed to and later regretted. I love Mary but she does play the victim card well. I admire that she fights back as well. This streaming thing she’s doing is amazing - not exactly selfless, but so what? History may just honor her mightily for her work on behalf of artists. She will deserve it. It’s a commonality that could possibly even get her and Diana speaking.

The Supremes is a trademarked name just like any product - crest, Palmolive, Coke Cola, Netflix, United Airlines, etc. There are clear steps to applying for trademark and ownership of a product name. According to Mary's book, Motown had actually NOT done that until they discovered her attempts in the mid 70s. and then according to her book, they colluded with her lawyer to have the papers sent to them vs her.

I've always wondered if mary had made the application and been granted it if she really would have ownership of it. quite possible that she would have. But I wonder if the fact that she signed multiple contracts with Motown where it states that MOTOWN owned the name and the group would have allowed for Motown to contest her application and ownership. they certainly would have tried

[TheMotownManiac]

The Tempts, Tops, Pips owned their names cuz they arrived or invented them. I do think, that when Ross left the Supremes, had she and Mary been on better terms, they might have been able to wrangle the name or a portion thereof. But since they were barely speaking, it’s a moot point.

[marv2]

Mary has given up on the name, which is why she went to plan B: Truth in Music. The Temptations made up their name and so they owned it. Motown employee made up The Supremes so Motown owns it. There’s nothing to discuss, sadly. I wish it were theirs. People have to stop blaming Motown for things their artists agreed to and later regretted. I love Mary but she does play the victim card well. I admire that she fights back as well. This streaming thing she’s doing is amazing - not exactly selfless, but so what? History may just honor her mightily for her work on behalf of artists. She will deserve it. It’s a commonality that could possibly even get her and Diana speaking.

You're just making stuff up aren't you? First of all. When Berry Gordy sold Motown in 1988 to MCA and Boston Ventures, he also sold the name "The Supremes" along with the recording company. In 1990 Berry Gordy and Mary Wilson met and Mr. Gordy presented Mary with a check in the six figures and it was not in the low six figures as her proceeds from the sell of the name "The Supremes". She had held 50% ownership, but could not do much with it until Motown and the name were sold!

The Temptations did not originally own their name [[btw, Billy Mitchell and Mickey Stevenson helped them come up with the name "The Temptations". After they left Motown with the help of Smokey Robinson, then Otis Williams and Melvin Franklin trademarked the name. They did not own it during their hit making days.

That "Motown employee" you referred to was Janie, Janie Bradford and she did not make up the name "The Supremes" she simply put it, along with several other potential names in a hat and Florence Ballard chose the name "The Supremes". They did not have to settle on that name, but Florence liked it and that was that! Motown did not trademark that name until they started to see the hitmaking potential of the group! Their owning it had nothing whatsoever with Janie putting it in a hat! Geez! LOL!!!!

[luke]

And as I understand it the courts have often given original members of groups the ability to use the groups name as the original members have used it over the years for their livelihood and became de facto owners of the name. If Mary hadn’t been pressured to continue to spend millions to fight for the name she probably would have eventually won the name in court, especially these days when singers right are coming to the forefront.

[TheMotownManiac]

You're just making stuff up aren't you? First of all. When Berry Gordy sold Motown in 1988 to MCA and Boston Ventures, he also sold the name "The Supremes" along with the recording company. In 1990 Berry Gordy and Mary Wilson met and Mr. Gordy presented Mary with a check in the six figures and it was not in the low six figures as her proceeds from the sell of the name "The Supremes". She had held 50% ownership, but could not do much with it until Motown and the name were sold!

The Temptations did not originally own their name [[btw, Billy Mitchell and Mickey Stevenson helped them come up with the name "The Temptations". After they left Motown with the help of Smokey Robinson, then Otis Williams and Melvin Franklin trademarked the name. They did not own it during their hit making days.

That "Motown employee" you referred to was Janie, Janie Bradford and she did not make up the name "The Supremes" she simply put it, along with several other potential names in a hat and Florence Ballard chose the name "The Supremes". They did not have to settle on that name, but Florence liked it and that was that! Motown did not trademark that name until they started to see the hitmaking potential of the group! Their owning it had nothing whatsoever with Janie putting it in hat! Geez! LOL!!!!

I am making things up? LOL

From Supreme Faith:

Now that we are approaching the millennium, I have decided to tell my side of the truth about my ongoing fights over the ownership of the name of that Supremes. The creativity that made the Supremes famous at Motown had been for filling in the 60s and the 70s. I love the old company and had much success with them throughout the years. However, they have been more of the source of all my legal battles using my trademark application to get ownership of the name Supremes. Though I have given up the fight with Motown over ownership I will not give up the fight for the Goodwill and the legacy of the Supremes, a legacy that I, Florence, and Diana created and I have spent a lifetime maintaining. As the only original member I still own that legacy one that no one can take away from me. In the 1990s I made a conscious decision to get on with my life and concentrate on my art my business and my children. I wanted to be free of the negative energy and to recoup the millions of dollars I spent on litigation in the previous 20 years.

After all the drama of the 70s and the 80s I had decided that enough was enough I picked up the phone and called Barry Gordy in 1990. He was happy I wanted to resolve all of our problems. He agreed that it was time to put the past behind us. We set up a meeting for the settlement. This was after Motown was sold the MCA records. After learning that Motown had been sold to MCA records, I recall that I had been given 50% of the name Supremes if were ever sold. So coming to this meeting I expected to get some profits from the sale of the name Supremes. But when I asked Barry about my 50 percent he said, “we just sold as a package deal along with everything else in the company. The name was included for the token payment of one dollar. So you don’t get anything. “I thought to myself I’ve been screwed again!”

I got my info from Mary, her book, and two interviews. That info is in direct contrast with yours. Someone is making things up. It was you that announced that diana ross was broke having given all of her money to Bernie Madoff and losing it all.

[Roberta75]

I am making things up? LOL

I got my info from Mary, her book, and two interviews. That info is in direct contrast with yours. Someone is making things up. It was you that announced that diana ross was broke having given all of her money to Bernie Madoff and losing it all.

LOL. I remember that lie about Diane Ross and Bernie Madoff. Marv never could produce a lick of evidennce because he made it up.

[midnightman]

Huh? Diana never had any dealings with Madoff? The hell?

Wow. Mary really thought she would own 50% of the Supremes name with Motown? Am I reading it correctly, Maniac? Wow...

See what I mean? I just wish the women did learn how this business really is... these kids came into an industry that took advantage of them. I'm glad Diana and Mary eventually made profit out of their hard work eventually but man...

[marv2]

I am making things up? LOL

From Supreme Faith:

Now that we are approaching the millennium, I have decided to tell my side of the truth about my ongoing fights over the ownership of the name of that Supremes. The creativity that made the Supremes famous at Motown had been for filling in the 60s and the 70s. I love the old company and had much success with them throughout the years. However, they have been more of the source of all my legal battles using my trademark application to get ownership of the name Supremes. Though I have given up the fight with Motown over ownership I will not give up the fight for the Goodwill and the legacy of the Supremes, a legacy that I, Florence, and Diana created and I have spent a lifetime maintaining. As the only original member I still own that legacy one that no one can take away from me. In the 1990s I made a conscious decision to get on with my life and concentrate on my art my business and my children. I wanted to be free of the negative energy and to recoup the millions of dollars I spent on litigation in the previous 20 years.

After all the drama of the 70s and the 80s I had decided that enough was enough I picked up the phone and called Barry Gordy in 1990. He was happy I wanted to resolve all of our problems. He agreed that it was time to put the past behind us. We set up a meeting for the settlement. This was after Motown was sold the MCA records. After learning that Motown had been sold to MCA records, I recall that I had been given 50% of the name Supremes if were ever sold. So coming to this meeting I expected to get some profits from the sale of the name Supremes. But when I asked Barry about my 50 percent he said, “we just sold as a package deal along with everything else in the company. The name was included for the token payment of one dollar. So you don’t get anything. “I thought to myself I’ve been screwed again!”

I got my info from Mary, her book, and two interviews. That info is in direct contrast with yours. Someone is making things up. It was you that announced that diana ross was broke having given all of her money to Bernie Madoff and losing it all.

Yeah you're making stuff up. Mary got a NICE settlement from the sale of the name along with Motown and she was very happy about it at the time as I remember. She so happy she went on BET and said so! I have not read Mary's book since the early 90s, but what you posted is what I said above except for that "So you don't get anything". She got something....a big something!

[marv2]

I am making things up? LOL

From Supreme Faith:

Now that we are approaching the millennium, I have decided to tell my side of the truth about my ongoing fights over the ownership of the name of that Supremes. The creativity that made the Supremes famous at Motown had been for filling in the 60s and the 70s. I love the old company and had much success with them throughout the years. However, they have been more of the source of all my legal battles using my trademark application to get ownership of the name Supremes. Though I have given up the fight with Motown over ownership I will not give up the fight for the Goodwill and the legacy of the Supremes, a legacy that I, Florence, and Diana created and I have spent a lifetime maintaining. As the only original member I still own that legacy one that no one can take away from me. In the 1990s I made a conscious decision to get on with my life and concentrate on my art my business and my children. I wanted to be free of the negative energy and to recoup the millions of dollars I spent on litigation in the previous 20 years.

After all the drama of the 70s and the 80s I had decided that enough was enough I picked up the phone and called Barry Gordy in 1990. He was happy I wanted to resolve all of our problems. He agreed that it was time to put the past behind us. We set up a meeting for the settlement. This was after Motown was sold the MCA records. After learning that Motown had been sold to MCA records, I recall that I had been given 50% of the name Supremes if were ever sold. So coming to this meeting I expected to get some profits from the sale of the name Supremes. But when I asked Barry about my 50 percent he said, “we just sold as a package deal along with everything else in the company. The name was included for the token payment of one dollar. So you don’t get anything. “I thought to myself I’ve been screwed again!”

I got my info from Mary, her book, and two interviews. That info is in direct contrast with yours. Someone is making things up. It was you that announced that diana ross was broke having given all of her money to Bernie Madoff and losing it all.

Diana Ross gave ALL of her money to Bernie Madoff? Wow, I didn't know that. Then she is as dumb as everyone has always said. I have heard that she had some dealings with him that went south on her and Ouch! Did it hurt! LOL!!!!!

[Roberta75]

Huh? Diana never had any dealings with Madoff? The hell?

Wow. Mary really thought she would own 50% of the Supremes name with Motown? Am I reading it correctly, Maniac? Wow...

See what I mean? I just wish the women did learn how this business really is... these kids came into an industry that took advantage of them. I'm glad Diana and Mary eventually made profit out of their hard work eventually but man...

There isnt a shred of evidence to prove that Diane Ross gave a dime to Bernie Madoff. Her number one obsesser made that lie up.

[Roberta75]

Diana Ross gave ALL of her money to Bernie Madoff? Wow, I didn't know that. Then she is as dumb as everyone has always said. I have heard that she had some dealings with him that went south on her and Ouch! Did it hurt! LOL!!!!!

No you and only you made up the lie about Diane having dealings with Bernie Madoff.

[TheMotownManiac]

Diana Ross gave ALL of her money to Bernie Madoff? Wow, I didn't know that. Then she is as dumb as everyone has always said. I have heard that she had some dealings with him that went south on her and Ouch! Did it hurt! LOL!!!!!

Marv, it disappoints me that you didn’t thank me for giving you the correct info about the name dealings since you had so much to say about it in an authoritarian manner. I would think you would find the truth interesting at least since it is so far from what you had said.

As far as Ross/Madoff, I don’t know how much it was, cuz I got the info from you, and you stated “she was broke because she got greedy and gave all her money to him to invest and lost it all.” That info, like the hundreds of thousands that Mary got for the name, came from you. LOL!!!!!!!

[midnightman]

Jesus Christ...

[TheMotownManiac]

I believe part of the reason they asked Lynda to do the lead duties is 1) vocally she could handle them and 2) all of the orchestra charts were in a key that required a soprano lead voice. As much as I love Cindy, she would not have been able to step in for Jean even though she too is a soprano. Cindy had rarely sung ANY leads so it would have been out of the question for her to do an entire show. Mary probably could have pulled it off, more or less, except that she's an alto and would have required them completely transcribing all of the music which wasn't realistic.

its true the charts would have been an issue for Mary, but they could have blown through it well enough. But if you listen to her ‘79 show or watch her in interviews, she’s not prepared in 72 to address the audience well enough yet. She became adept in the 80s and is now an old pro. Cindy just didn’t have the chops or presence to lead anything. Her slight voice had very little personality. Lynda had the most commercial voice of the three, and was by far the most eloquent speaker. She proved that on Flip Wilson, I believe. Plus, if you listen to what’s out there of the show, she nails it!

[sup_fan]

its true the charts would have been an issue for Mary, but they could have blown through it well enough. But if you listen to her ‘79 show or watch her in interviews, she’s not prepared in 72 to address the audience well enough yet. She became adept in the 80s and is now an old pro. Cindy just didn’t have the chops or presence to lead anything. Her slight voice had very little personality. Lynda had the most commercial voice of the three, and was by far the most eloquent speaker. She proved that on Flip Wilson, I believe. Plus, if you listen to what’s out there of the show, she nails it!
Completely agree! I think the lineup of MLC could have been an interesting one! Frankly I like their blend a bit better than MJL. I think J and L both have unique voices and hard to blend w. m and C are perfect together and allow whatever lead singer to shine

[marv2]

The Supremes is a trademarked name just like any product - crest, Palmolive, Coke Cola, Netflix, United Airlines, etc. There are clear steps to applying for trademark and ownership of a product name. According to Mary's book, Motown had actually NOT done that until they discovered her attempts in the mid 70s. and then according to her book, they colluded with her lawyer to have the papers sent to them vs her.

I've always wondered if mary had made the application and been granted it if she really would have ownership of it. quite possible that she would have. But I wonder if the fact that she signed multiple contracts with Motown where it states that MOTOWN owned the name and the group would have allowed for Motown to contest her application and ownership. they certainly would have tried

Exactly!..............

[marv2]

Jesus Christ...



I know right? LOL!!!!!!!

[luke]

What exactly has Motown done with the name?? I don’t see any more Supremes white bread being marketed!

[thanxal]

What exactly has Motown done with the name?? I don’t see any more Supremes white bread being marketed!
1400414005140061400714008140091401014011

[Albator]

No you and only you made up the lie about Diane having dealings with Bernie Madoff.
If Diana had been in trouble because of Madoof, she would have gotten away with her usual glamour! She doesn't know how else to do it. :D

[TheMotownManiac]

What exactly has Motown done with the name?? I don’t see any more Supremes white bread being marketed!

Im guessing that they are more about protecting the legacy than exploiting it. The Supremes is their premium brand and don’t want a bunch of erstwhile groupings Of nobodies going out and destroying the legacy. They would probably liscence5 the name to Ross for another RTL or Mary for a 70s grouping, but that would prolly be it. They also try to Protect the world from phony rip off covers killing themselves as the Supremes stealing sales away from the original recordings. I know some of that goes on anyway and I feel sorry for the people who get ripped off thinking that getting an original when they’re not.

[midnightman]

Yeah. You can say Motown has definitely protected the Supremes' name from being stolen off like the Marvelettes' were. I'm still not over that!

[lakeside]

What exactly has Motown done with the name?? I don’t see any more Supremes white bread being marketed!
Now Luke, you know darn well Motown passed the torch to Shantel Baker!
http://soulfuldetroit.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=4074&stc=1&d=1325371661

[marv2]

Now Luke, you know darn well Motown passed the torch to Shantel Baker!
http://soulfuldetroit.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=4074&stc=1&d=1325371661

LOL!!!! "You got wait!, you gotta give and take take...." LOL!

[luke]

Sorry Lakeside. I was in denial. Supreme Shantel! Being a Baker she is now making that Supreme bread

[luke]

I don’t know that Motown did a damn thing about groups like SOS etc. Mary tried. As Diana didn’t want the name except for RTL it just seems spiteful not to give it to Mary.

[marv2]

I don’t know that Motown did a damn thing about groups like SOS etc. Mary tried. As Diana didn’t want the name except for RTL it just seems spiteful not to give it to Mary.


I agree. She is the one that put the most into it.

[gman]

There was a male vocal group in the 50's named The Supremes who issued several records.
The name must not have been trademarked / the group dissolved when it came time to rename The Primettes.

[marv2]

There was a male vocal group in the 50's named The Supremes who issued several records.
The name must not have been trademarked / the group dissolved when it came time to rename The Primettes.

Also the some of the male group members of Ruby and the Romantics of "Our Day Will Come" fame were once called "The Supremes".

[marybrewster]

Here is the Facebook post:


Sweet Feet Music
Like Page
February 19 at 1:46pm
Mary Wilson and Sweet feet Music had a great time at The Nikko . Get ready for A RED HOT summer and fall. Mary gave me THE MASTERS of FOUR RARE unreleased tracks , giving them a good listen and then off to JCK Music for Digital Remastering .
Keep it sweet . #BeSupreme

Red Hot summer and fall is beginning to look like a "Nathan Jones" lyric.

#imstillwaiting [[oops)

[luke]

George and Andy explained the Red Hot album and Mary’s Gus tracks situations and I still don’t understand it! Not their fault!

[mysterysinger]

yeah - or we could send this thread to DRATS.

[nathanj06]

If the Supremes had chose to leave Motown in 1965, they could've done what Mary Wells did when she left. Mary signed as a 17-year-old. When her contract expired in 1964 after she turned 21, she hired a lawyer who told her that she could argue her contract with Motown was "invalid" because she was a minor at the time and that was how she got out of it. I believe Berry had the contract rules to change afterwards because he didn't wanna have any of his artists argue about contracts [[that didn't quite work with Stevie since he hired one of the smartest attorneys in the business, Vigoda, to have things go in Stevie's favor rather than Motown's).

Then again, the Supremes, when they renewed their contract in 1965, could've hired lawyers who told them "look, girls, your group's name is important, you need to make sure you get it trademarked so Mr. Gordy don't do nothing with that name". I'm sure that's how Otis and Melvin got "The Temptations" trademarked because how else were they gonna exist in the industry with Motown controlling their name?

They controlled the Marvelettes'. The Four Tops were the Four Tops BEFORE signing with Motown. I think Martha and the original Vandellas eventually got their name back in their possession [[not to mention a chunk of performing royalties they were probably denied when the group dissolved in 1972) after suing Motown in 1983 and 1989 [[Martha sued first and the original Vandellas - Rosalind and Annette - sued after; which probably explains why Martha didn't join Mary in the streaming bill push, just speculating).

But I think like the Marvelettes, the Supremes were LOYAL to Berry Gordy so they didn't question nothing. And since they were one of THE biggest acts of the '60s, they were wined and dined more than the other Motown acts who lived on crumbs compared to them save for Marvin [[who had the Gordy connections by technicality due to who he married), The Tempts and the Tops.

Also, when you start a group at 14, 15 years old, you're too naive. All you wanna do is sing. Education goes out the window since you're so determined to be a superstar. I mean, the Supremes each achieved their status before they were mature enough to understand what was really going on. They were all fresh out of high school when they made chart history. Just 20, 21 years old. Basically CHILD PRODIGIES. They bought into the "we are family" hype that the company told them so of course they weren't gonna question Motown about royalties or name possession or any kind of artistic control. Flo could've but she was going through so much, all she can do is rant and fight. Mary and Diana were so used to the good life and all of that [[by their own admissions), they couldn't really see how much people played them.

They each found out too late that they were being taken advantage of. Flo couldn't leave the label to use her Supremes connections to help out her post-Supremes career, Diana left with only $250,000 in her possession [[and she had three kids to support when she left) and had to invest in real estate and become a producer/executive producer of her concert shows, TV specials and albums and Mary basically had to do whatever she had to do to make sure she kept the finances right [[as far as I know, unlike Flo, she nor Diana never had to file bankruptcy and after Mary cut her husband Pedro out of the picture, she turned everything around for her).

I still wonder if Mary is still fighting to retain the Supremes name for her, the estate of Florence and Diana since if the name belongs to any of the members, it's those three.

And to note, they could've gotten control of things while still in Michigan rather than before they and the company relocated to California.

Diana didn't have any children until the birth of Rhonda in 1971.

[blackguy69]

Diana didn't have any children until the birth of Rhonda in 1971.midnight was referring to when she left in 81. 100,000 from the group and the rest from her solo material