“Bad Weather”

[longtimefan]

With the recent interest in two Stevie unreleased Supremes’ tracks [[and without being highly critical), I wonder what SDF fans think about BAD WEATHER? Let’s discuss this actual released track, not the girls’ personalities and relationships. I am curious to learn how fans feel about this release. I have some definite opinions, but I will hold back for now. :-)

Strengths?

Weaknesses?

[jobeterob]

To me, it just plodded along, no significant highs, no hooks, just kind of a shuffle. I have always thought it just helped move along the decline of the Supremes. It was surprising coming out of Stevie Wonder.

But then Pops We Love You came out of Diana, Marvin, Smokey and Stevie. And it too was another nice song that went nowhere.

[Circa 1824]

Pops had awesome vocals by all, especially Diana. But, the song needed something it didn’t have. I don’t know what could have helped it. Was Diana close to Pops?

[luckyluckyme]

I find this quite interesting [[and tremendously overpriced)

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Bible-signed-BERRY-GORDY-SR-DIANA-ROSS-SILBERSTEIN-Motown-Detroit-1976-gift-rare-/332501198876?

[luckyluckyme]

Maybe.....

13916

[reese]

I liked BW from the first time I heard it. I think Jean's phrasing on it is great. And the instrumental track is well-done, it sort of reminds me of Al Green.

[luckyluckyme]

Was Diana close to Pops?

And again....

13917

[luckyluckyme]

Getting back to the original topic, I prefer the extended version on the Supremes Box Set.

[RanRan79]

I love it. I think it's a great song. Should have been a hit.

[sup_fan]

I love it. I think it's a great song. Should have been a hit.

lord Ran - we just keep bumping heads lololol

actually I do like it but I like it more for what it SHOULD have been rather what it was. my issues are:
1. it's not very hummable or singable - Jean ad libs too much and strays from the melody line too much. Just like the stories of recording Ladder and Frank telling her to keep it more simple, she should have done that more here too.

2. not the strongest of hooks - I think this really hurt the song. it's an amazing backing track and groove. Lynda's vocals on the chorus are more of a hook than Jean's because jean's really jump all over the place. perhaps just a little simplification of jean's lead melody on the choruses would have helped give it a bit more oomph. make it more a hook and a melody that sticks in your head more

3. lack of group - all three girls do a fine job. this isn't a criticism of that. but I don't think stevie had the background in record GROUP material. he did syreeta, himself. but listen again to Ladder. see how M and C really participate in the overall song much more than just background vocals? or the call and response in Come See ABout Me? or the group interactions in many of the Floy Joy songs? or how they're Momma warning about love in you Can't Hurry Love?

I think if jean had stuck a bit closer to the melody in the first few choruses [[then go soulful at the end and outro), more group interaction and a bit stronger lead line for the chorus, it would be an A+

[marv2]

With the recent interest in two Stevie unreleased Supremes’ tracks [[and without being highly critical), I wonder what SDF fans think about BAD WEATHER? Let’s discuss this actual released track, not the girls’ personalities and relationships. I am curious to learn how fans feel about this release. I have some definite opinions, but I will hold back for now. :-)

Strengths?

Weaknesses?

"Bad Weather" is a great, Soul/Dance record that had what I consider the perfect groove for what was out there in 1973. The Supremes and Stevie got funky with it!

[marv2]

I liked BW from the first time I heard it. I think Jean's phrasing on it is great. And the instrumental track is well-done, it sort of reminds me of Al Green.

Exactly! It had a sound that reminded me of what Al Green, the Chi-Lites and others were doing at the time.

[gman]

Looks like Jean really enjoyed and believed in the song. Her live delivery of BW was always spirited and she seemed to enjoy bouncing her way thru it. I think one of the problems was it didn't sound at all like a Motown record. It sounded like a Stax production. The brass overpowers everything else about the track, and it took me awhile to enjoy it for what it was....I also couldn't find the 45 anywhere when it was released. I didn't get it till mid '74

[Circa 1824]

I think BW starts out strong. But, the vocal fade at the end is a bit painful to hear, and this leads me not to want to hear it again.

[longtimefan]

Getting back to the original topic, I prefer the extended version on the Supremes Box Set.

Hmmmm... Interesting. I’ll check it out!

[marv2]

Looks like Jean really enjoyed and believed in the song. Her live delivery of BW was always spirited and she seemed to enjoy bouncing her way thru it. I think one of the problems was it didn't sound at all like a Motown record. It sounded like a Stax production. The brass overpowers everything else about the track, and it took me awhile to enjoy it for what it was....I also couldn't find the 45 anywhere when it was released. I didn't get it till mid '74

Yeah but by 1973, there really was no "Motown Sound". Stevie Wonder wrote and produced it just like he did his own 1973 recordings. Marvin Gaye's "Let's Get it On" from 1973 was not the Motown Sound either.

[midnightman]

Getting back to the original topic, I prefer the extended version on the Supremes Box Set.

Me too.

But as far as the Supremes go, it wasn't "The Supremes" [[plus what made the group special was they always were putting their all: leads and backgrounds, and that was sorely missing in Bad Weather where Jean's mic was louder than Mary's and Lynda's) so no one outside the more devoted members of their fan base was gonna buy it... but either way, the label just wasn't gonna get out of their necks to promote it.

TBF, they probably released it too early. Imagine if they had waited until 1974 or 1975, it would've easily been a disco hit. I'm sure it was a favorite at David Mancuso's Loft nightclub in NYC.

[gman]

they were in need of a hit...a big hit. it was too much of a change. Imagine if Dancing Machine was given to the Supremes? they needed something more along that sound.

[Jimi LaLumia]

who cares? It was a major flop, no hooks to speak of,the instrumentation did indeed plod along and actually sounded 'sour' and off..very upsetting as I did want to see the Jean lineup keep going..

[Thornton]

To me the only "weakness" with this song was the shortness of the fade. The extended fade on GH&RC is my favorite because you can hear the group letting loose a little more, making the song end on a more satisfying note. I do think that this song, just like "I Guess I'll Miss the Man" sounded better live.

[marv2]

Just a little reminder of just how great this song,"Bad Weather" was/is. I was listening to "Soul Radio" during those years and this one absolutely ranked with what was popular that year:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mzZXYmSop5Q

[luke]

The song doesn’t rally tell a story. Cacophony of sounds.

[marv2]

The song doesn’t rally tell a story. Cacophony of sounds.

The story I get from the song is her relationship has changed with her man. They don't talk things out anymore like they use to, so now she is fearing the worse.........they are going to run into some "Bad Weather". Just look the rain, its coming baby. LOL!

[Circa 1824]

And again....

13917

who else is in that pic? Billy Dee?

[midnightman]

I'm gonna have to agree with Luke here lol

It's TOO simple. It was obvious lyrics weren't the most important part of the song.

[144man]

I'm biased in its favour because I saw them sing it live in London on its release even though I didn't get one of the whistles that were distributed to the audience for our participation.

[daviddh]

I like the box set version but it took me a long time to like it. I think it was over produced. vocals were good but something wasn't working for me

[marybrewster]

Just my two cents: for me, I think the failure of "Bad Weather" was less about the material itself, and more about the image of the Supremes. In three short years, they'd gone through three lineup changes [[Diana left in 70, Cindy left in 72) yet they were still "hanging on" to the sequins. They needed a new look. Jean is soulful on BW but it's hard to get down in a 40 pound beaded dress, as what they wore on the Bob Hope Special.

Other performances of the time include "Soul Train" where they performed FLOY JOY in the silver pantsuits from the Andy Williams Special [[three years earlier) and another performance of BW in the pink pantsuits from Glen Campbell [[also three years earlier). As their sound evolved into something more soulful, so should have the moves and the costumes.

[Jimi LaLumia]

pant suits aren't visible when a record is playing on the radio; tv appearances were for the older folks who were expected to keep seeing them in posh nightclubs that the kids weren't going to; "Bad Weather" had a showcase on the ultra popular Soul Train with the Stevie Wonder seal of approval from Motown, and still couldn't get out of the 'train station'....Bad Record..

[marv2]

pant suits aren't visible when a record is playing on the radio; tv appearances were for the older folks who were expected to keep seeing them in posh nightclubs that the kids weren't going to; "Bad Weather" had a showcase on the ultra popular Soul Train with the Stevie Wonder seal of approval from Motown, and still couldn't get out of the 'train station'....Bad Record..

It was a great record that many radio stations in America never received. It was also nearly impossible to find a copy of it in stores.

[Jimi LaLumia]

we stocked it in Sam Goody ,Lake Grove, I was record dept. manager there and we played it in store a lot because I did want the Jean/Mary/Lynda lineup to succeed.. I love ya, Marv you know that, but to me, it was a non event of a record, and after the Soul train appearance, if people really wanted the record, stores would have reacted accordingly ..there were so many better choices for single selection.. the same holds true for whoever thought "I Guess I'll Miss The Man' was supposed to be a Supremes single..maybe a Jean solo single for 'middle of the road' radio.. aim the conspiracy angle at whoever was picking the singles to be released..

[marv2]

we stocked it in Sam Goody ,Lake Grove, I was record dept. manager there and we played it in store a lot because I did want the Jean/Mary/Lynda lineup to succeed.. I love ya, Marv you know that, but to me, it was a non event of a record, and after the Soul train appearance, if people really wanted the record, stores would have reacted accordingly ..there were so many better choices for single selection.. the same holds true for whoever thought "I Guess I'll Miss The Man' was supposed to be a Supremes single..maybe a Jean solo single for 'middle of the road' radio.. aim the conspiracy angle at whoever was picking the singles to be released..

Yeah you see but that's way out on the Island. I couldn't find a copy in the city anywhere. I bet it was never played on the radio on L.I. either. Jimi, I again have to respectfully disagree. "Bad Weather" was a great record and it fit the sound at the time which why Stevie Wonder got even more pissed than the Supremes did when it did not become a huge hit! "I Guess I'll Miss the Man" probably did better on the A/C charts. I can't remember what single preceded it, but it was a vvvveerry mellow song kind of like what Olivia Newton John was putting out around that time.

[midnightman]

marybrewster hit the nail on the head: the Supremes' image was still one of glamour rather than the earthy funkiness of the song. They didn't change with the times like the Temptations did. When compared to the Tempts, Four Tops and even Labelle [[who was more ahead of their time than other R&B groups in terms of wardrobe), the Supremes were still stuck in the '60s image wise. That definitely hurt them. The sad thing about the Supremes especially during the Jean years was they had ability to grow beyond what they had done when Diana, Cindy and Florence were in the group but didn't.

[marv2]

LaBelle was weird looking in the way they dressed on stage. Nobody dressed like that in normal life. They did it because they wanted the very needed attention dressing like space cadets would bring them. The Supremes was still the most successful female group for the entire decade of the seventies if you go by the number of hits placed on the Billboard Hot 100. There was nothing wrong with the way the Supremes dressed in the 70s. The Three Degrees dressed very similar during those years. None of that shit played a role in the group getting hit records. It was harder and harder to find their records and in those days when you called the radio stations request lines, they did not have promo copies of the singles for some reason.

[captainjames]

It was just not a good record and it was worse when sung live. The looked fine and beautiful on stage but the song was just painful to listen to. At one point I thought maybe they should have used thunder instead of the whistle but it just tanked for me. However, I bought it and was able to find it everywhere. Now at times I often wondered what could have happen if Mary had took the lead on this.

[Motown Eddie]

While I still like The Supremes' "Bad Weather", I agree with other posters who feel that the song didn't have strong enough hooks to be a major hit record [[it would've worked better as an LP cut or B-side though). I also feel that Motown should've had the group do another LP with either Frank Wilson or Smokey Robinson to get the group back to the top of the charts [[and they needed something big after the failures of "I Guess I'll Miss The Man" and the Sings Jimmy Webb LP). Also agree with other posts that The Supremes needed to try a "new look" in the mid '70s after all the years of elaborate gowns & sequins.

[Bluebrock]

Getting back to the original topic, I prefer the extended version on the Supremes Box Set.
Me too, but i always loved this song although i appear to be in the minority with fellow fans. Not too keen on the whistles but otherwise a real favourite of mine and probably in my top 20 all time favourite Supremes songs.

[Bluebrock]

It was just not a good record and it was worse when sung live. The looked fine and beautiful on stage but the song was just painful to listen to. At one point I thought maybe they should have used thunder instead of the whistle but it just tanked for me. However, I bought it and was able to find it everywhere. Now at times I often wondered what could have happen if Mary had took the lead on this.
I don't think Mary was capable of singing this. Maybe Lynda could have made a decent job of it but i think it works just fine with Jean singing it.

[Bluebrock]

I'm biased in its favour because I saw them sing it live in London on its release even though I didn't get one of the whistles that were distributed to the audience for our participation.
I remember it getting lots of airplay on radio 1 here in the UK and they performed it live on Top Of The Pops . Everything pointed towards it restoring the girls to the top 20 after the Jimmy Webb disaster, but it stalled in the mid 30's which was much better than it did back in the USA but still a major disappointment.

[DJMoch]

I absolutely love Bad Weather, especially the version that appeared on the Supremes box set. But that version's fade-out and fade-in at the end irritates me no end -- I hate when songs do that! I would love a proper version of the song with no fade [[and maybe even made even longer, I'm one for extended versions, LOL). Hell, if I ever got my hands on the multitracks, I would definitely take a stab at that one! ;)

[Edgar]

"Bad Weather" is my favorite Supremes song. Maybe because it marked the moment I first entered a gay discotheque in Old San Juan [[Puerto Rico). I still remember the crowd's joy every time it was played. We all jumped to it as a single unit, wonderful!!! As a matter of fact, it reached #1 in the radio charts. But apart from the effect it had in my life, I think it is a great song, with covers by Melissa Manchester and Mathilde Santing [[which is incredibly good). I love the horns, which seem to be mocking the melodrama Jean is describing. Here's a little review I wrote for the site Rate Your Music: «"Bad Weather" is a masterpiece of popular music. The typical story of a love affair drifting along a wrong path is given new breath by funky horn arrangements, strong lead performance and beautiful background vocals. While the trumpets propel you to avoid falling into any kind of "bad weather", the chorus of the second strophe has an angelic air as the voices substitute strings and they turn the complete song into a rite, an invocation, a plea against the regretful moments of love. The disco whistle, the innuendo in Terrell's voice and the joyful backings by Wilson and Laurence, all hint at reconciliation. Great song & production.»

[marv2]

It was just not a good record and it was worse when sung live. The looked fine and beautiful on stage but the song was just painful to listen to. At one point I thought maybe they should have used thunder instead of the whistle but it just tanked for me. However, I bought it and was able to find it everywhere. Now at times I often wondered what could have happen if Mary had took the lead on this.

Quick, name 5 other records from the Spring of 1973.

[marv2]

"Bad Weather" is my favorite Supremes song. Maybe because it marked the moment I first entered a gay discotheque in Old San Juan [[Puerto Rico). I still remember the crowd's joy every time it was played. We all jumped to it as a single unit, wonderful!!! As a matter of fact, it reached #1 in the radio charts. But apart from the effect it had in my life, I think it is a great song, with covers by Melissa Manchester and Mathilde Santing [[which is incredibly good). I love the horns, which seem to be mocking the melodrama Jean is describing. Here's a little review I wrote for the site Rate Your Music: «"Bad Weather" is a masterpiece of popular music. The typical story of a love affair drifting along a wrong path is given new breath by funky horn arrangements, strong lead performance and beautiful background vocals. While the trumpets propel you to avoid falling into any kind of "bad weather", the chorus of the second strophe has an angelic air as the voices substitute strings and they turn the complete song into a rite, an invocation, a plea against the regretful moments of love. The disco whistle, the innuendo in Terrell's voice and the joyful backings by Wilson and Laurence, all hint at reconciliation. Great song & production.»

Finally! An intelligent review of a great record, "Bad Weather". Thank you Edgar.

[marv2]

I absolutely love Bad Weather, especially the version that appeared on the Supremes box set. But that version's fade-out and fade-in at the end irritates me no end -- I hate when songs do that! I would love a proper version of the song with no fade [[and maybe even made even longer, I'm one for extended versions, LOL). Hell, if I ever got my hands on the multitracks, I would definitely take a stab at that one! ;)

DJMoch, here is an extended version of "Bad Weather" what do you think of it? What changes would you make if you could? I would pump up the background vocals in the part where they are isolated:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MkZ7nSQCyRA&spfreload=10

[marv2]

1973. "Bad Weather" had a similar groove to the Spinners "One of a Kind Love Affair", Al Green's "I'm Still in Love With You" and the Chi-Lites "Stone Out of My Mind". To name a few. All of which were very popular at the time:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zCatHYRwsoA

[marv2]

The Spinners "One of Kind Love Affair" from 1973:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_jDR3KSllTQ&spfreload=10

[marv2]

Al Green's "I'm Still In Love With You" from 1972:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9jQtBTQwY6s&spfreload=10

[Sotosound]

This was a big change for The Supremes. They went from old-style Smokey production to cutting edge Stevie production where double-tracked horns don’t even sound like horns.

But, for me, that aspect was just about bringing The Supremes up to date.

If I put my pop sensibility hat on then the difference between this track and, say, “Floy Joy” is that “Floy Joy” hits you with the hook straight away [[Bid o bebop Floy Floy Floy, Floy Joy) whereas “Bad Weather” takes you through an intro of interesting but not very poppy chord changes, then a verse wherein we have a few [[very few) notes under lots of words and some ordinary chord changes, finally followed by the chorus, which is the strongest part of the track. However, by then, non-Motown afficianados - pop fans in the UK - will have lost interest.

Great track for me, and it was in stereo, but as a pop single it didn’t play well enough to its audience. I didn’t see that in 1973. Back then, it was just sad that it wasn’t a big hit. 45 years later I can see what happened. Shame that we don’t have time travel.

[jim aka jtigre99]

I think that Bad Weather was a good song. Jean Terrell was certainly a soulful singer and Stevie Wonder was quoted as saying he wanted to develop her vocals where he felt she excelled. It was on the cusp of the disco era and you can hear it being a predecessor to the upcoming sound but it also had Jean's riffs and the Stevie Wonder sound which almost made it seem like they were working against each other and that it never really took off into the stratosphere like it should have. It certainly was more appealing to the younger record buying public than I Guess I'll Miss The Man. I don't think Bad Weather would have put them back on top but it surely should have been a top 40 pop hit, doing much better than the #83 or 85 that it did. When you listen to Jean's solo album you can hear the realization of what this song started as her sound. I have read a number of articles that list Bad Weather as an overlooked start to the disco era. That may be true. However, with Jean as lead vocalist the group's sound was more soulful and as the producers explored that I think Motown didn't support them as they used to and the general public was more used to a certain sound from them, the public didn't seem to want the group to evolve. Bad Weather was a good song, it did sometimes seem to stall in places and really didn't have a strong hook to pull you in. But I did like the song very much.

[marv2]

This was a big change for The Supremes. They went from old-style Smokey production to cutting edge Stevie production where double-tracked horns don’t even sound like horns.

But, for me, that aspect was just about bringing The Supremes up to date.

If I put my pop sensibility hat on then the difference between this track and, say, “Floy Joy” is that “Floy Joy” hits you with the hook straight away [[Bid o bebop Floy Floy Floy, Floy Joy) whereas “Bad Weather” takes you through an intro of interesting but not very poppy chord changes, then a verse wherein we have a few [[very few) notes under lots of words and some ordinary chord changes, finally followed by the chorus, which is the strongest part of the track. However, by then, non-Motown afficianados - pop fans in the UK - will have lost interest.

Great track for me, and it was in stereo, but as a pop single it didn’t play well enough to its audience. I didn’t see that in 1973. Back then, it was just sad that it wasn’t a big hit. 45 years later I can see what happened. Shame that we don’t have time travel.

Interesting perspective. Much appreciated. Thanks Sotosound.

[marv2]

I think that Bad Weather was a good song. Jean Terrell was certainly a soulful singer and Stevie Wonder was quoted as saying he wanted to develop her vocals where he felt she excelled. It was on the cusp of the disco era and you can hear it being a predecessor to the upcoming sound but it also had Jean's riffs and the Stevie Wonder sound which almost made it seem like they were working against each other and that it never really took off into the stratosphere like it should have. It certainly was more appealing to the younger record buying public than I Guess I'll Miss The Man. I don't think Bad Weather would have put them back on top but it surely should have been a top 40 pop hit, doing much better than the #83 or 85 that it did. When you listen to Jean's solo album you can hear the realization of what this song started as her sound. I have read a number of articles that list Bad Weather as an overlooked start to the disco era. That may be true. However, with Jean as lead vocalist the group's sound was more soulful and as the producers explored that I think Motown didn't support them as they used to and the general public was more used to a certain sound from them, the public didn't seem to want the group to evolve. Bad Weather was a good song, it did sometimes seem to stall in places and really didn't have a strong hook to pull you in. But I did like the song very much.

Jim, that is something some don't understand. This was SOUL music, not the Pop type music Motown and the Supremes were producing back in the 60s. If you did not particularly care for Soul music, you would not like this new sound from the Supremes and Stevie, but you cannot say that it was a bad record/song. It was perfectly align with that sound that was popular with Soul music fans in 1973!

[jobeterob]

Bad Weather was a nice song just not a single-a shuffle plod with no excitement for radio

At the time, the supremes lost their vision; their leadership was weak and directionless. Motown still bought the single full page ads in billboard and cashbox. But the group was beginning it’s death throes

If it had Otis Williams style leadership, would it have survived?

[marv2]

Bad Weather was a nice song just not a single-a shuffle plod with no excitement for radio

At the time, the supremes lost their vision; their leadership was weak and directionless. Motown still bought the single full page ads in billboard and cashbox. But the group was beginning it’s death throes

If it had Otis Williams style leadership, would it have survived?

That doesn't even make sense. Record buyers [[which were mostly teenagers and young adults at that time) did not read industry publications.

[midnightman]

I don't think Mary was capable of singing this. Maybe Lynda could have made a decent job of it but i think it works just fine with Jean singing it.

Mary shines on ballads, standards and jazz material. But on pop/funk/disco material, I think her voice is too, what's the word, sultry and sophisticated, for it? You can tell when she sings BW live. It never fits her like I Am Changing fits her for example.

Here's the extended version btw:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RPETym5HsSY

Notice Mary's laughter at the end of this. :)

[TomatoTom123]

WOAH there are a lot of opinions on this song... and I’m still waiting for longtimefan to chip in with his :p

Personally I looooooove it, and from my 40-odd-years-later-perspective it still [[lol, like I was there) sounds absolutely wonderful and joyous. It is, quite simply, a lot of fun. [[And damn I even love the whistles :p)

It’s probably not the most sophisticated or elegant song in the Supremes catalog, but if you ever want any of that go and listen to "My World Is Empty Without You" and depress yourself the hell out instead :)

I think it should have been a hit... why not? Fun, funky, danceable... what’s not to like?

And I totally agree with Emile...


I absolutely love Bad Weather, especially the version that appeared on the Supremes box set. But that version's fade-out and fade-in at the end irritates me no end -- I hate when songs do that! I would love a proper version of the song with no fade [[and maybe even made even longer, I'm one for extended versions, LOL). Hell, if I ever got my hands on the multitracks, I would definitely take a stab at that one! ;)

... that extended mix is so excellent to have but I do kinda hate how it fades out and in again! I too would love another extended mix. :)

And, interesting what Soto says...


This was a big change for The Supremes. They went from old-style Smokey production to cutting edge Stevie production where double-tracked horns don’t even sound like horns.

But, for me, that aspect was just about bringing The Supremes up to date.

If I put my pop sensibility hat on then the difference between this track and, say, “Floy Joy” is that “Floy Joy” hits you with the hook straight away [[Bid o bebop Floy Floy Floy, Floy Joy) whereas “Bad Weather” takes you through an intro of interesting but not very poppy chord changes, then a verse wherein we have a few [[very few) notes under lots of words and some ordinary chord changes, finally followed by the chorus, which is the strongest part of the track. However, by then, non-Motown afficianados - pop fans in the UK - will have lost interest.

Great track for me, and it was in stereo, but as a pop single it didn’t play well enough to its audience. I didn’t see that in 1973. Back then, it was just sad that it wasn’t a big hit. 45 years later I can see what happened. Shame that we don’t have time travel.

... because it was actually something of a hit here in the UK, making #37... which is not bad at all. I have actually heard it played on the radio recently too!

[Boogiedown]

1973. "Bad Weather" had a similar groove to the Chi-Lites "Stone Out of My Mind". :


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zCatHYRwsoA

that's a good comparison . The two would have sounded good back to back in a club.

[gman]

Perhaps if it had some of Stevie's trademark Clavinet either in the beginning [[or one of the breaks) it would have been obvious he was involved, and got some immediate radio play it would have did better?

[gman]

Am listening to the box set version now....great fidelity and doesn't it sound just a shade slower in the first part? I have that box set tucked away somewhere in protective plastic. I sold the necklace years ago on Ebay.

[marv2]

Perhaps if it had some of Stevie's trademark Clavinet either in the beginning [[or one of the breaks) it would have been obvious he was involved, and got some immediate radio play it would have did better?

No, because many stations never received the record from Motown to play.

[Bluebrock]

WOAH there are a lot of opinions on this song... and I’m still waiting for longtimefan to chip in with his :p

Personally I looooooove it, and from my 40-odd-years-later-perspective it still [[lol, like I was there) sounds absolutely wonderful and joyous. It is, quite simply, a lot of fun. [[And damn I even love the whistles :p)

It’s probably not the most sophisticated or elegant song in the Supremes catalog, but if you ever want any of that go and listen to "My World Is Empty Without You" and depress yourself the hell out instead :)

I think it should have been a hit... why not? Fun, funky, danceable... what’s not to like?

And I totally agree with Emile...



... that extended mix is so excellent to have but I do kinda hate how it fades out and in again! I too would love another extended mix. :)

And, interesting what Soto says...



... because it was actually something of a hit here in the UK, making #37... which is not bad at all. I have actually heard it played on the radio recently too!
Ken Bruce played it on his mid morning radio 2 show recently. He get 6-7 million listeners each day so it is good to know that people who were too young at the time can get to hear it on National Radio 45 years later!

[daviddh]

I thought Up The Ladder , Stoned Love, Nathan and Floy Joy were good soulful yet pop sounding trax. Stoned Love just sparkled that Motown sound and was a tremendous return to form.
although I like Bad Weather, I didn't love it. it did grow on me and I do like it now. but I still feel something was missing. I always wanted a remix of this song. Gonna Let My Heart was a great dance track but BW does not make me feel like I want to get up a boogie. it is classic Stevie and I like the lyrics and the vocals. it just seems to chug along. if we het another MOTOWN REMIXED collection this would be my choice for a remix

[Edgar]

I tell you, I danced to it on its day, and it was a wonderful dance track, before Donna came up with her sighs and Travolta, with his choreography. It was pure tribal dance without rules or blocking the steps, lol, and if you danced to it following Jean's lead you'd simultaneously reach something like and orgasmic climax. I do not judge the track from the perspective of the "Supremes legacy" because that would mean adding some criteria [[the 60s, Diana Ross, the Ballard tragedy, all the #1s, etcetera) that have little to do with the production as it is, a funky, joyous, proto-disco song that delivered, at least, in the dance floor.

[Jimi LaLumia]

Radio went cold on this edition of the Supremes after "Automatically Sunshine" failed to make it past second base; everything thereafter went by the wayside: Top 40 radio is fickle like that..and after the death knell that was "I Guess I'll Miss The Man' [[should have been "Tossin And Turnin'") , nobody at radio was taking Supremes singles seriously, sad to report, and I was 'working overtime" [[to namedrop another Motown flop) to make these records happen, but they were non hit radio material.. and it's done, so what else is there to say..

[marv2]

I tell you, I danced to it on its day, and it was a wonderful dance track, before Donna came up with her sighs and Travolta, with his choreography. It was pure tribal dance without rules or blocking the steps, lol, and if you danced to it following Jean's lead you'd simultaneously reach something like and orgasmic climax. I do not judge the track from the perspective of the "Supremes legacy" because that would mean adding some criteria [[the 60s, Diana Ross, the Ballard tragedy, all the #1s, etcetera) that have little to do with the production as it is, a funky, joyous, proto-disco song that delivered, at least, in the dance floor.

I really like your description of this record and it's affect on you. LOL!!!!

[Jimi LaLumia]

and if old man Gordy didn't want the record to happen it would have been shelved like so many tracks that are only now seeing the light of day: BG would not have wasted money on full page trade ads,manufacturing and shipping [[to warehouses like Sam Goody's in Maspeth Queens which shipped the record to all the Goody's stores, including the flagship Rock Plaza store in mid town Manhattan,and allowing a tarnish to show up on golden boy Stevie Wonder's track record at the time..and booking all those mentioned tv appearances, including Soul train.

[marv2]

Radio went cold on this edition of the Supremes after "Automatically Sunshine" failed to make it past second base; everything thereafter went by the wayside: Top 40 radio is fickle like that..and after the death knell that was "I Guess I'll Miss The Man' [[should have been "Tossin And Turnin'") , nobody at radio was taking Supremes singles seriously, sad to report, and I was 'working overtime" [[to namedrop another Motown flop) to make these records happen, but they were non hit radio material.. and it's done, so what else is there to say..

Well being that I was still in the Detroit area during that time, all the Supremes releases were still popular, although you had a hard time hearing them on radio. Whenever you called, they would tell you that they never received the single "Bad Weather". I only heard "I Guess I'll Miss the Man" on A/C or MOR radio a couple of times. Those were not the stations I listened to regularly back then. There is not much to say, it was now so very long ago.

[marv2]

and if old man Gordy didn't want the record to happen it would have been shelved like so many tracks that are only now seeing the light of day: BG would not have wasted money on full page trade ads,manufacturing and shipping [[to warehouses like Sam Goody's in Maspeth Queens which shipped the record to all the Goody's stores, including the flagship Rock Plaza store in mid town Manhattan,and allowing a tarnish to show up on golden boy Stevie Wonder's track record at the time..and booking all those mentioned tv appearances, including Soul train.

Maspeth Jimi? "Bad Weather" could have only been shipped from So. Jamaica, Queens! hehehehehehehehe!!!!

[Edgar]

A few opinions are not related to the good music I enjoyed then and still do to this day whenever I listen to "BW" [[it's permanently in a couple of playlists in my car). So I prefer to keep alive the memory of how good those times were and how "Bad Weather" -in spite of its title- was a part of it.

[Jimi LaLumia]

bottom line if you enjoyed the record, God Bless, that's all that counts, but if you play it against the JMC hits,"Ladder" "Stoned", "River Deep" , "Nathan" or "Floy", the energy and the hooks are just not there..I wish it had been otherwise..

[Roberta75]

and if old man Gordy didn't want the record to happen it would have been shelved like so many tracks that are only now seeing the light of day: BG would not have wasted money on full page trade ads,manufacturing and shipping [[to warehouses like Sam Goody's in Maspeth Queens which shipped the record to all the Goody's stores, including the flagship Rock Plaza store in mid town Manhattan,and allowing a tarnish to show up on golden boy Stevie Wonder's track record at the time..and booking all those mentioned tv appearances, including Soul train.

Gordy was a businessman and if Bad Weather had any hope at being a hit hed have made sure it was in the stores. That old tired "Motown never promoted it" line was debunked when we everyone had gotten access to YouTube and saw the dozens and dozens of times the 70s Supremes was on the TV. If Gordy wanted to stop them he had the power to block them from apearing on television. The people werent that interested in buying they records anymore and it didnt help that they wore gowns from the DMC and DMF era in TV and stage imo.

[midnightman]

Bad Weather definitely was promoted everywhere. In 1973, Berry Gordy was still trying to get a hit from the Supremes. It was clear things had changed for the group. Explain how they went on a hit streak between 1970-1972 and then by the end of the latter year, it turned the opposite way? After a decade of hits, people had moved on. So yeah, that is a good point.

[marv2]

Bad Weather definitely was promoted everywhere. In 1973, Berry Gordy was still trying to get a hit from the Supremes. It was clear things had changed for the group. Explain how they went on a hit streak between 1970-1972 and then by the end of the latter year, it turned the opposite way? After a decade of hits, people had moved on. So yeah, that is a good point.

It was definitely promoted everywhere? In what country? It was not promoted here in the U.S.

[BayouMotownMan]

There was so much hype before the record came out, I couldn't wait to hear. When I finally did I was so disappointed. I still rarely listen to it.

Jean didn't sound good on the recorded version. Live, she nailed it. For whatever reason Jean wasn't sounding good on her last recordings for Motown. The Jimmy Webb lp, BW, Soft Daze, Love Train, she just didn't have that warmth that was there for the Touch sessions.

[Roberta75]

It was definitely promoted everywhere? In what country? It was not promoted here in the U.S.

Three National US TV shows = PROMOTION.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H1qXCBlnoY8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9EwNHAHRq8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mzZXYmSop5Q

[blackguy69]

We’ve covered this before. Yes we know they did it on tv 4 times but was it on dj’s playlist on local radio stations across the country. Tv appearances are great but if it ain’t being played on the radio it ain’t goin nowhere.

[midnightman]

Radio stations had more autonomy than they do now. If they decided not to play a song back in the day, they just wouldn't.

What went well on TV doesn't mean radio was gonna eat it up. TV was probably enough for the chart placement they did get but that's it.

And it seems, as I said earlier, besides from the loyalists, not many jumped on this song.

[Jimi LaLumia]

Hit radio was not and is not obligated to play records just because they are released.. The Supremes singles, as previously stated, had already gone cold,same as Martha, The 4 Tops, Gladys just before she went to Buddah Records etc...if people who saw the song on those tv stations called radio to hear it, radio would have played it.. one or three die hard fans for any artist don't make a flop into a hit..Ross went through similar cold periods with single releases in the 70's,it was not exclusive to The Supremes

[jobeterob]

And now Ross going through another hot period 40 years after Bad Weather came to the Supremes

[Roberta75]

We’ve covered this before. Yes we know they did it on tv 4 times but was it on dj’s playlist on local radio stations across the country. Tv appearances are great but if it ain’t being played on the radio it ain’t goin nowhere.

if it had been a better song the TV appearances wouldve helped.

[jobeterob]

if it had been a better song the TV appearances wouldve helped.

And when an artist goes dead at radio nothing can help; in 1973, the Supremes died as Mary’s books said; they continued in death throes TIL they stopped when they went out with a whimper

The truth is they all tried, but only Diana had a career that was successful

[bradsupremes]

The Supremes had a chance to hit again in 1976 with "I'm Gonna Let My Heart Do The Walking." It was climbing the charts, but Motown stopped it from going higher. According to Scherrie Payne, a Motown executive asked top radio stations and DJs in the country to stop playing "Do The Walking" and insisted they push "Love Hangover" instead. After all, both songs were released the same day. With the 5th Dimension's "Love Hangover" on the charts, of course Motown would want to push Diana's version to reach the top, but it was at the expense of a Supremes single that was a clear number one hit.

[luke]

Mary does a great job on this in concert and gets a rousing reception. I think Stevie should have moved Mary and Lynda more up front with their rauscous vocals and can’t you just hear Stevie singing this!

[marv2]

Mary does a great job on this in concert and gets a rousing reception. I think Stevie should have moved Mary and Lynda more up front with their rauscous vocals and can’t you just hear Stevie singing this!

I would have love to hear Stevie sing this with them. Yes, I love Mary's performance of the song in concert now.

[marv2]

The Supremes had a chance to hit again in 1976 with "I'm Gonna Let My Heart Do The Walking." It was climbing the charts, but Motown stopped it from going higher. According to Scherrie Payne, a Motown executive asked top radio stations and DJs in the country to stop playing "Do The Walking" and insisted they push "Love Hangover" instead. After all, both songs were released the same day. With the 5th Dimension's "Love Hangover" on the charts, of course Motown would want to push Diana's version to reach the top, but it was at the expense of a Supremes single that was a clear number one hit.

Brad, that is exactly what I heard. Scherrie Payne explained it herself in detail. "I'm Gonna Let My Heart Do the Walking" was far more interesting record vocally and instrumentally.

[marv2]

We’ve covered this before. Yes we know they did it on tv 4 times but was it on dj’s playlist on local radio stations across the country. Tv appearances are great but if it ain’t being played on the radio it ain’t goin nowhere.

Stations did not receive promo copies of the record, so it was not played or promoted on the radio. You may have noticed by now that no one responding to this thread has mentioned hearing "Bad Weather" on the radio. Hmmmm.......

[BayouMotownMan]

It's interesting to point out here that the various Supremes fan clubs, all together there were thousands of members. Randy T assembled a list of radio stations coast to coast with mailing addresses and phone numbers. We bombarded these stations with letters and phone calls. Nothing helped. Looking back the radio programmers probably realized we were the same people writing the same letters over and over again. I was successful in getting the local AM station with the most power to at least audition the record again. And again it got vetoed. Bad Weather simply wasn't radio friendly. Even the soul stations down south didn't play it. It, like the Jimmy Webb lp, simply wasn't Supreme. It may as well have been a whole new group. Motown DID do some promotion on the song if only to appease Stevie who was their hottest artist now. It was mixed and issued a second time in May. A third extended mix was readied in June but Jean announced she was fed up. It was simply the wrong choice for a Supremes single.

[sup_fan]

It's interesting to point out here that the various Supremes fan clubs, all together there were thousands of members. Randy T assembled a list of radio stations coast to coast with mailing addresses and phone numbers. We bombarded these stations with letters and phone calls. Nothing helped. Looking back the radio programmers probably realized we were the same people writing the same letters over and over again. I was successful in getting the local AM station with the most power to at least audition the record again. And again it got vetoed. Bad Weather simply wasn't radio friendly. Even the soul stations down south didn't play it. It, like the Jimmy Webb lp, simply wasn't Supreme. It may as well have been a whole new group. Motown DID do some promotion on the song if only to appease Stevie who was their hottest artist now. It was mixed and issued a second time in May. A third extended mix was readied in June but Jean announced she was fed up. It was simply the wrong choice for a Supremes single.

Bayou - do you think if the Jimmy Webb lp hadn't been issued and they'd gone straight from Floy Joy to the Stevie project it would have helped? do you think the Webb project permanently damaged their recording reputation?

[sup_fan]

so we've all pretty much chimed in with our thoughts on the record. and most of us are in agreement that the Webb project was misguided.

So what should the girls have looked into doing? if the Stevie project wasn't "supreme-sounding" what might have been an alternative concept, producer or sound that would have been better?

Given all of the "promises kept" tracks, most of those don't strike me as groundbreaking. i'm surprised at the volume of covers too. After Frank left, at least the Smokey tracks were a different approach and sound. some have said they felt these were too light weight.

So the question remains - who should the girls have worked with post-Frank and/or post-Smokey?

[blackguy69]

Maybe norm Whitfield or Willie hutch

[BayouMotownMan]

Bayou - do you think if the Jimmy Webb lp hadn't been issued and they'd gone straight from Floy Joy to the Stevie project it would have helped? do you think the Webb project permanently damaged their recording reputation?

Yes I think it did. They chose a time to experiment when they were in decline. You do this when you are hot. They had other choices. Thom Bell actually flew into LA to meet with Gordy about doing an lp on The Supremes. Also Frank Wilson wanted them back. I'd say any of these two possibilities would have been a better choice.

[blackguy69]

I was also thinking Ashford and Simpson

[TheMotownManiac]

Stations did not receive promo copies of the record, so it was not played or promoted on the radio. You may have noticed by now that no one responding to this thread has mentioned hearing "Bad Weather" on the radio. Hmmmm.......
no one heard it because it stunk. Jeans vocal is so irrrrrritating that I can just imaging programming directors pulling the needle off 30 seconds into it and tossing it. Even The UK who made hits out of US flops like Surrender And Automatically Sunshine couldn’t save this Turkey. This BS about radio not getting it is fake news. Motown didn’t even control the promo launches - it was all done for them. WHY would Motown go to the trouble of issuing a single on a desperate group that it made money off of and then not send it to radio? THAT, is what releasing a single IS: sending it to radio. Why do I gave a red vinyl promo copy of BW with radio codes on it if it hadn’t gone to radio? This absurd BS has to be stopped in any serious discussion. In 3 years The Supremes had gone from being an A act to a B minus act. Motown had lost Gladys, Tops, Spinners, Martha with no replacements. They could ill afford to lose The Supremes. Stevie Wonder was no fool, he’d have known if it hadn’t been sent out. What he didn’t realize is that while HE could sell that record, Jeans great voice was not suited to it. For every few die hards on this list that likes it, there were millions plugging their ears at the noise. R&B radio couldn’t even move it and they had to play it because it got enough points to chart.

It it just was a terrible record for radio back then, nice try, valiant, but terrible. In Mary‘s book, she complains to Diana that Motown is not promoting her singles. She states that bad weather has been out for months and not gotten any promotion. Oddly, almost 2 months after it’s release, it charts briefly for one week. That says to me that diana said something to Barry about getting that song played, and an effort was made, but you cannot expect radio stations to play a song they think is so terrible that it will make people turn off their channel. They just will not do that. Had. There been a good response to whatever play if Was getting, and people were running out and buying it and the manager from those record stores they didn’t have it, it would have made noise and got up the chart. That’s how records become hits. But everyone I know absolutely Hated it and wondered how it ever even got released because it was so terrible!

This business of crying the lack of promotion every single time something associated with Mary doesn’t hit, is an old old old old joke that wasn’t very funny the first time. If it took you two years to find bad weather in a store, You should’ve come to Illinois or Ohio it was all the stores…… Collecting dust.

[BayouMotownMan]

no one heard it because it stunk. Jeans vocal is so irrrrrritating that I can just imaging programming directors pulling the needle off 30 seconds into it and tossing it. Even The UK who made hits out of US flops like Surrender And Automatically Sunshine couldn’t save this Turkey. This BS about radio not getting it is fake news. Motown didn’t even control the promo launches - it was all done for them. WHY would Motown go to the trouble of issuing a single on a desperate group that it made money off of and then not send it to radio? THAT, is what releasing a single IS: sending it to radio. Why do I gave a red vinyl promo copy of BW with radio codes on it if it hadn’t gone to radio? This absurd BS has to be stopped in any serious discussion. In 3 years The Supremes had gone from being an A act to a B minus act. Motown had lost Gladys, Tops, Spinners, Martha with no replacements. They could ill afford to lose The Supremes. Stevie Wonder was no fool, he’d have known if it hadn’t been sent out. What he didn’t realize is that while HE could sell that record, Jeans great voice was not suited to it. For every few die hards on this list that likes it, there were millions plugging their ears at the noise. R&B radio couldn’t even move it and they had to play it because it got enough points to chart.

It it just was a terrible record for radio back then, nice try, valiant, but terrible. In Mary‘s book, she complains to Diana that Motown is not promoting her singles. She states that bad weather has been out for months and not gotten any promotion. Oddly, almost 2 months after it’s release, it charts briefly for one week. That says to me that diana said something to Barry about getting that song played, and an effort was made, but you cannot expect radio stations to play a song they think is so terrible that it will make people turn off their channel. They just will not do that. Had. There been a good response to whatever play if Was getting, and people were running out and buying it and the manager from those record stores they didn’t have it, it would have made noise and got up the chart. That’s how records become hits. But everyone I know absolutely Hated it and wondered how it ever even got released because it was so terrible!

This business of crying the lack of promotion every single time something associated with Mary doesn’t hit, is an old old old old joke that wasn’t very funny the first time. If it took you two years to find bad weather in a store, You should’ve come to Illinois or Ohio it was all the stores…… Collecting dust.


I SERIOUSLY doubt that Diana said anything to Gordy about promoting a Supremes single. They were her toughest competitor at Motown and in the years prior to this were more successful than she.

[luckyluckyme]

.......... They had other choices. Thom Bell actually flew into LA to meet with Gordy about doing an lp on The Supremes. Also Frank Wilson wanted them back. I'd say any of these two possibilities would have been a better choice.

I'm curious. Perhaps this was addressed somewhere and I missed it. Just what happened between Frank Wilson & the Supremes after the Touch album?
Mary Wilson wrote that he basically stopped coming around. I realize that his focus shifted to working on Eddie Kendricks solo career at that time. Frank's desire? Eddie's request? Motown directive?
But you state that Frank Wilson wanted them back.
I'm obviously missing something or am unable to read between the lines.
Answer what you can, if you choose. Perhaps there are sensitive issues here best left unsaid.?

[TheMotownManiac]

I SERIOUSLY doubt that Diana said anything to Gordy about promoting a Supremes single. They were her toughest competitor at Motown and in the years prior to this were more successful than she.
In March of ‘73, Diana had a smash movie, #1 album, Oscar nomination and sellout dates. The Supremes were coming off a flop album, no real top 40 action for over a year [[and Floy Joy was hardly a smash - it’s two years back to Nathan), had lost their gig in Vegas, were playing B venues and were no competition for anyone. At first, yes. But I’ve never bought into that Mary fable of JMC VS Diana and vice versa. I think Berry thought Diana could do no wrong and after the wow success of Lady, the last thing he or she was worried about was if The Supremes had a hit. Diana was a movie star. She had transcended the pop singer category - much to everyone’s surprise. I do not believe that Diana wished for the demise of The Supremes or bore them ill will. I know that Mary was quite competitive that way as she, often enough would mention what Diane was doing and did not expect Lady to be a success - if Anyone was worried about competition, after the Touch flop, Motown wouldn’t have asked Smokey to do an album and release it when nothing new was going out to radio on Diana for over two years. I think it’s all BS - Berry loved money. Period.

‘’However, WTF do I know? Maybe it was just a coincidence that two months after the release of bad weather, and shortly after mary spoke to Diana about it, that it chartered. The bottom line is, it still stunk. And went to nowhere. Seeing the girls doing it on television could have, like in the case of missing you, sparked interest in sales and made climb up the chart. It didn’t. I know that there are some people here that like the song, and 45 years later it’s much easier on that years then it was what it was first assaulting your drums. However just because some people like a song doesn’t make it radio friendly. I like the song Sleepin- I think she does a great vocal on it, it’s very well produced and an interesting and original concept…… But I also think it was insane to release it as a single…….Who would want to hear that while they’re driving in their car? No one, it seems. Do you think Motown promoted it? Is that what kept it from going to number one? Hardly. Although some radio stations obviously gave it a shot, the dismal response made them bail on it quickly…… There’s nothing to do with the quality of the track like it or not… It was just a stupid thing to release to the radio. A program director’s job is to decide what songs the public is going to want to hear when they’re listening to that station, and conversely, what song is the public will change stations if they hear a song they don’t like. Sleeping and bad weather belong in that category…… Ridiculous shots for radio. I actually love Stevie‘s track, I think the lyric is mundane in there’s nothing really good or bad about it in my Pinyan, but jeans vocal is absolutely horrendous. She did it well live, however. I heard it several times in addition to TV.

[TheMotownManiac]

Yes I think it did. They chose a time to experiment when they were in decline. You do this when you are hot. They had other choices. Thom Bell actually flew into LA to meet with Gordy about doing an lp on The Supremes. Also Frank Wilson wanted them back. I'd say any of these two possibilities would have been a better choice.
i had no idea Thom Bell was interested - that would have been my choice in a heartbeat. Wow, why didn’t I think of that???? Frank Wilson was good, but, he was hardly hitting it out if the park on the girls. They needed a number one smash, Stoned Love was big - but not enough to sustain a career on. Look at the mileage Diana got off ANMHE - one giant hit in 3 years sustained her. When Jean was keeping it simple, she was perfect for radio. Her oversinging and endless riffs were not for radio. She could out sing Roberta Flack by a mile, but Roberta had the vocal style Jean lacked.

[sup_fan]

Yes I think it did. They chose a time to experiment when they were in decline. You do this when you are hot. They had other choices. Thom Bell actually flew into LA to meet with Gordy about doing an lp on The Supremes. Also Frank Wilson wanted them back. I'd say any of these two possibilities would have been a better choice.

wow! that would have been very interested to have Thom and the girls! and too back Frank didn't get back with them sooner than when they did Love Train. were there any other Frank productions with the MLJ lineup? i do think he was the best producer to work with Jean. they really seemed to click

[sup_fan]

one thing that's puzzled me [[and maybe i'm taking to modern of an outlook on it) is that why in the 70s the supremes didn't have more voice in what they would record or what they would release. Sure i get it during the 60s - they were young AND berry was managing every step of Diana's career. but by the 70s i would have thought Mary at least would have had a bit more voice in the direction of things. maybe not releases but certainly of their concert material. which by late 72 was questionable at best. Seems like she really took things over post Jean and Lynda. wonder what might have happened had they done this together while Jean was in the group

or maybe that was part of the problem - with the conflicts between M and J, maybe they just couldn't take a unified direction on the group. I do also wonder if Mary wasn't instrumental in the lack of updating of their style and approach. She's said herself that she loved the glamour and glitz. maybe she was a significant part of the reluctance to become more in tune with the times

[midnightman]

Maybe Mary was still stuck in the '60s and was wishing Berry do more. I think Jean was more advanced and progressive in her thoughts and wanted to confront Motown about getting them better material [[and more financial stability) and that led to a lot of her and Mary getting into conflict because Mary was more old-school in her handling of Motown but before had to be the middle piece of the originals so she was comfortable in that spot but once other members replaced them, she no longer had that comfort zone and probably was uncomfortable talking with Berry. Remember, the Temptations by comparison were more independent in how they handled Berry and sometimes did their own thing in spite of Berry whereas the Supremes basically looked to Berry to handle everything.

It sucks that Mary and Jean weren't more united and unified because if they were, the Supremes could've lasted longer than 1977...

[marv2]

Maybe Mary was still stuck in the '60s and was wishing Berry do more. I think Jean was more advanced and progressive in her thoughts and wanted to confront Motown about getting them better material [[and more financial stability) and that led to a lot of her and Mary getting into conflict because Mary was more old-school in her handling of Motown but before had to be the middle piece of the originals so she was comfortable in that spot but once other members replaced them, she no longer had that comfort zone and probably was uncomfortable talking with Berry. Remember, the Temptations by comparison were more independent in how they handled Berry and sometimes did their own thing in spite of Berry whereas the Supremes basically looked to Berry to handle everything.

It sucks that Mary and Jean weren't more united and unified because if they were, the Supremes could've lasted longer than 1977...

That would be all well and good, but Berry was not running the show at that time. Ewart Abner was the President of Motown's Record Division when all of this was going on. It was on his watch that several of Motown's most established acts left the label. Oh sure, some, like Mary Wilson could have gone directly to Mr. Gordy, but all he would have done was tell them to talk with Mr. Abner. That is how it was.

[TheMotownManiac]

one thing that's puzzled me [[and maybe i'm taking to modern of an outlook on it) is that why in the 70s the supremes didn't have more voice in what they would record or what they would release. Sure i get it during the 60s - they were young AND berry was managing every step of Diana's career. but by the 70s i would have thought Mary at least would have had a bit more voice in the direction of things. maybe not releases but certainly of their concert material. which by late 72 was questionable at best. Seems like she really took things over post Jean and Lynda. wonder what might have happened had they done this together while Jean was in the group

or maybe that was part of the problem - with the conflicts between M and J, maybe they just couldn't take a unified direction on the group. I do also wonder if Mary wasn't instrumental in the lack of updating of their style and approach. She's said herself that she loved the glamour and glitz. maybe she was a significant part of the reluctance to become more in tune with the times

I think Berry had little respect for Mary or her opinions. Anyway, I doubt that she had the vision to lead the group. She certainly wasn’t able to when Pedro took over. Lynda was the most savvy of the lot, and had she stayed, things might have improved. What they needed was a manager with vision and they didn’t have it. Certainly Berry had no idea how to appeal to the 70s market - he was a rock n roller era dude. It’s sad cuz we all wanted our 2-For-1 stock split as promised, as evidenced by discussing what ifs for 5 decades later. TCB dresses in the sandbox says a lot. They should have refused and Jean should have refused to wear DR&TS gowns as identifiable as the green swirls, not to mention they were so hopelessly out of date. What were they thinking? Those gowns were brilliant 1968 pop art - not 1972 funk or granola. Geesh. No vision at all.

Gladys was a wise musician and business savvy. They needed someone like her to ask the tough questions, but I’m guessing maybe both Jean and Lynda did and that’s why they split. They knew they were not making any real money.

[BayouMotownMan]

It was Motown who removed Frank Wilson from producing The Supremes.

Typically at Motown, when a producer got a hit on an act, that producer would continue working exclusively with that act until the hits stopped. That is how Smokey lost the Temptations to Norman Whitfield. It's also how Whitfield lost The Temptations in 1974. The hits dried up.

It was obvious to Ewart Abner and company that the failure of the Touch lp and single meant that a new producer was needed on The Supremes. Smokey was no longer touring with the Miracles and preferred working with the female artists at Motown. The Marvelettes split up earlier in 1971, so Suzanne dePasse asked Smokey to try something on The Supremes while other producers, including Clay McMurray, Ashford & Simpson and Bobby Taylor did productions on the Supremes. This was the foundation for the material that could have been used for the Promises Kept lp.

Floy Joy was a big enough hit record for the ladies to maintain their performance fee. The Floy Joy album sold better than the last two Frank Wilson lps and all of the Four Tops duet albums. Logically, another Smokey album would have been the wiser decision. But the groups' manager Wayne Weisbart got Jimmy Webb interested in doing an lp on the ladies. They embraced the idea because, Jean especially, wanted to do more serious music. And this was the rope they used to hang themselves.

The Jimmy Webb lp came out at the same time as Lady Sings. Everything was riding on Diana's movie so all promotion was given to her. Gordy could have lost Motown if that movie bombed. He was not interested in a new sound for The Supremes. Around this time his established artists like the 4 Tops, Gladys & The Pips, Ashford & Simpson and The Spinners vacated Motown. They could see the trend and knew they were on board a musical Titanic. In hind site, Jean was probably right that the group sign with ABC, change the name to something recognizable like Supreme Ladies. They'd have had a fighting chance.

[jobeterob]

The early 70's were the era of the singer/songwriter - Carole King, Jim Croce, James Taylor and of course Stevie, Marvin, Smokey and Diana in the movies.

The Supremes in the old glitter gowns seemed so out of date especially with some of what they kept in their live act.

[BayouMotownMan]

That was my complaint, the club act. I attended Jean and Lynda's last performance as Supremes at Magic Mountain in Cal. They did full length versions of Stoned Love and Bad Weather and a quick medley of Jean's other hits. No Diana Ross hits were in the act. They did a 10 min version of Tossin and Turnin and equally as long on Love Train. I never could understand why each grouping of Supremes, with all these major hit records, were doing half the show with non-Supremes hits.

[luke]

I doubt a move to ABC would have worked. The Dixie Cups, Crystals And Flo all sank when they went to that label Which did not really have a stellar record with a lot of R&B acts. Atlantic may have been a great move though. Were any labels besides ABC interested?

[BayouMotownMan]

I doubt a move to ABC would have worked. The Dixie Cups, Crystals And Flo all sank when they went to that label Which did not really have a stellar record with a lot of R&B acts. Atlantic may have been a great move though. Were any labels besides ABC interested?

Yes but those acts had not risen to the legendary status of the Supremes. The 4 Tops went to ABC with stellar results.

[midnightman]

I doubt a move to ABC would have worked. The Dixie Cups, Crystals And Flo all sank when they went to that label Which did not really have a stellar record with a lot of R&B acts. Atlantic may have been a great move though. Were any labels besides ABC interested?

We're talking about the Supremes. It was different for Florence because she wasn't allowed to use her Supremes connection to get the promo [[the fact that her solo material was unfocused and badly produced was another reason Flo never really got her shine post-Supremes).

The Four Tops managed to score hits because they were big enough to still get ahead. I think it has to do with how business savvy you are and the Four Tops were the oldest Motown group in terms of age [[all of them were doggone near 40 when they signed with ABC in 1972 while two of the Supremes post DR were just 28).

And I don't think Mary was thinking of the future at the time or how to make sure they manage to leave the label with their name intact [[Motown never owned the Four Tops' name and Otis & Melvin were able to retain usage of the Temptations name before they left for Atlantic in 1977).

And like BMM just said, the Supremes were already legends by 1973. They could've found a way [[at least Mary anyway since she was the only original remaining at that point) to get back ownership of the name and move on with a label and get renewed push like the Tops did [[their last Motown recordings were duds but they revived themselves after the ABC move).

[marv2]

We're talking about the Supremes. It was different for Florence because she wasn't allowed to use her Supremes connection to get the promo [[the fact that her solo material was unfocused and badly produced was another reason Flo never really got her shine post-Supremes).



The Supremes would have not been allowed to use the name "The Supremes" or even say they were the Supremes had they left. That's why Mary decided to stay and fight with Motown.

[luke]

Exactly. Mary was quite smart not to leave. Mary Wells? The Temptations on Atlantic? And they had their names!

[sup_fan]

I think in some ways Mary was realistic enough to know that there's NO way motown or berry would allow any part of the Diana Ross story to be outside of his purview and control. The group had been a stepping stone for his goal of launching Diana and it had accomplished that goal. but he certainly wasn't going to allow any other record company to benefit from it. To have the group go to ABC or another label and in any way or form use "Supremes/Supreme" would have been in violation of the usage rights.

what surprises me the most is that by 73 mary had been in this career for 13+ years and frankly i find it rather incredulous that she knew so little of the the business side of her profession. She was nearly 30 yrs old. And she had seen Flo crumble and lose it all. Maybe fear was driving her more than anything else at this time. Fear that if they left motown she'd be throwing it all away too. She did at least know enough to realize she had to play by their rules to some degree. And i'm thinking that's why she stayed with motown. she didn't have any alternatives really.

[midnightman]

For Mary [[and to an extent, Diana), Motown was home to them and Mary couldn't see an alternative because of that, one. Two, she was probably not trustworthy of many people. Like Flo, she had try to keep the focus on the group and when that fell apart, maybe Mary just decided to deal. But I still think she should've learned how to survive because this business is easy to chew you up and spit you out. How you almost 30 and you can't get a hit after ten years of getting nothing BUT hits? Performing can only go so far until the only gigs you can get are clubs.

Motown sold Mary on that family thing and she probably didn't bother to check with Berry about that until it was too late.

[RanRan79]

Dumbest move Mary made was staying at Motown because she didn't want to lose the name Supremes. One has to wonder if she had left with Jean and Lynda and forged a new path, if it would have made for an easier transition when Mary decided to embark on a solo career. Those years of non hits after Jean left did no favors for Mary's solo start.

[milven]

The Supremes would have not been allowed to use the name "The Supremes" or even say they were the Supremes had they left. That's why Mary decided to stay and fight with Motown.

Some groups have left their names behind, and still found success.

Patti Labelle and the Bluebells reinvented themselves as LaBelle.
The Moments became Ray Goodman & Brown.
Jefferson Airplane became Jefferson Starship and then Starship.

I believe that when the Temps left for Atlantic, they were given the choice to either leave their name behind or take it and leave any future royalties from their catalogue behind.

Someone here can confirm this or correct me.

Some who left Motown continued to succeed without Motown [[Diana, 4 Tops, Marvin Gaye, Gladys Knight & the Pips)

[marv2]

Some groups have left their names behind, and still found success.

Patti Labelle and the Bluebells reinvented themselves as LaBelle.
The Moments became Ray Goodman & Brown.
Jefferson Airplane became Jefferson Starship and then Starship.

I believe that when the Temps left for Atlantic, they were given the choice to either leave their name behind or take it and leave any future royalties from their catalogue behind.

Someone here can confirm this or correct me.

Some who left Motown continued to succeed without Motown [[Diana, 4 Tops, Marvin Gaye, Gladys Knight & the Pips)

I understand what you are saying, but none of those names were as big as "The Supremes". Their name was in the realm of "Elvis", "The Beatles", "Sinatra" etc,etc.

[marv2]

Dumbest move Mary made was staying at Motown because she didn't want to lose the name Supremes. One has to wonder if she had left with Jean and Lynda and forged a new path, if it would have made for an easier transition when Mary decided to embark on a solo career. Those years of non hits after Jean left did no favors for Mary's solo start.

In Mary's defense [[naturally....) by her staying and continued association with "The Supremes", she has been able to continue work all over the World today.

[RanRan79]

In Mary's defense [[naturally....) by her staying and continued association with "The Supremes", she has been able to continue work all over the World today.

Yeah, but Mary only uses the name Supremes because she has been unsuccessful at carving out a career separate and apart from the name. Had Mary left Motown and been successful as a group or as a solo, she would not have to bill herself as Mary Wilson of the Supremes. With hindsight it was a good idea that she stuck it out because we know how the story eventually played out. But in my mind there was an alternate story here, one where Mary Wilson doesn't need the name Supremes to sell herself. She wasted years in the Supremes. It was a dying group when Jean left. Mary is an underrated talent. She had the goods to succeed but never caught the breaks. I think even at this point she doesn't need to use the name. People know who Mary is, especially around the business. She could probably book quality gigs by picking up the phone and calling around her damn self. Lol Mary has always been a social butterfly.

[RanRan79]

Looking back, it seems like one of Mary's biggest problems was that she didn't want to take risks. Even going back to the Flo and Diana days. Mary is said to have often kept her mouth closed because she didn't want to rock the boat. Imagine how different the Supremes' story could have played out if Mary had decided to be as vocal as Flo about the bullshit going on. Gordy could get away with replacing one member of the group. Not even he was dumb enough to believe he could get rid of them both. Someone else mentioned here that Mary may have played it safe even with the group's image in the 70s while Jean and Lynda might have been thinking in a new direction. It's sad that a woman so young would not have decided to step out on faith and see where the wind took her. I may be in the minority around here but I will always believe Mary Wilson is one of the talented ones who had the goods to deliver something great if given the chance. I realize often she wasn't given the chance, but it also appears she didn't often take the chance either.

[midnightman]

I agree with RanRan...

[sup_fan]

mary could have had the chance to truly lead the Supremes when Diana left. or she could have done something like the 50/50 split as she did with Scherrie. it was a time when the group was doing a complete revamp. to emerge as a multi-lead ensemble would have been accepted by the public. And frankly Gordy really probably didn't give a shit one way or the other. I think he [[and all of us probably agree) that had mary tried to take over the entire lead position, the group would not have lasted as long as it did. Jean was a natural talent and added a fresh new sound to the group. And they did a nice job of reinventing their sound and approach - certainly M and C were far more featured. But they could have done even more. as ran said, by the mid 70s there really wasn't much collateral value to the group name other than their glorious history.

I think they could have expanded their concert approach and image. Sure when they did Vegas they could use their cabaret act. But for more of the tv and other stage appearances, they could have evolved more into something more contemporary. Less of the giggling school girls. I remember hearing an interview [[I think was on the Mike Douglas show, or maybe Merv) where the host comments on their having sold 50+ million records and mary said she wasn't sure of the exact amount. He said something like If I had sold that many I'd be counting them every day. Mary said they go shopping every day - not a very intelligent answer.

[RanRan79]

I've always wondered if the decision to include "Can't Take My Eyes Off of You" during the DRATS period in the live show and even on television was Gordy's way of testing the waters for how the group would either sound, look or how the public would respond with Mary as lead. I agree that Mary as total lead doesn't work, not when Diana left. The number one reason being Mary's own admission that she wasn't ready. Let's be real, anyone stepping into Diana's shoes was going to have to bring their A game. Jean did that because Jean was confident in her vocal skills. Mary has admitted that she often wasn't as confident, and I believe it shows in her approach to "Can't Take" at the time. I think the early 70s were good training for Mary as a lead singer. Her vocal on "Can't Take" from the Japan live album in 73 may be Mary's finest live vocal IMO during her Supremes years. She sounds confident and doing things with her voice I don't think we had yet heard from her. The audience reaction suggests they too were very pleased with what they heard. I think either leaving the label with Jean and Lynda or going solo when Jean and Lynda left, in 1973 Mary was in a good place to get it started. She looked great, sounded great, the keys were there, she just couldn't find the car. Lol

[blackguy69]

mary could have had the chance to truly lead the Supremes when Diana left. or she could have done something like the 50/50 split as she did with Scherrie. it was a time when the group was doing a complete revamp. to emerge as a multi-lead ensemble would have been accepted by the public. And frankly Gordy really probably didn't give a shit one way or the other. I think he [[and all of us probably agree) that had mary tried to take over the entire lead position, the group would not have lasted as long as it did. Jean was a natural talent and added a fresh new sound to the group. And they did a nice job of reinventing their sound and approach - certainly M and C were far more featured. But they could have done even more. as ran said, by the mid 70s there really wasn't much collateral value to the group name other than their glorious history.

I think they could have expanded their concert approach and image. Sure when they did Vegas they could use their cabaret act. But for more of the tv and other stage appearances, they could have evolved more into something more contemporary. Less of the giggling school girls. I remember hearing an interview [[I think was on the Mike Douglas show, or maybe Merv) where the host comments on their having sold 50+ million records and mary said she wasn't sure of the exact amount. He said something like If I had sold that many I'd be counting them every day. Mary said they go shopping every day - not a very intelligent answer.
That was on marv right after up the ladder came out

[rod_rick]

Yeah, but Mary only uses the name Supremes because she has been unsuccessful at carving out a career separate and apart from the name. Had Mary left Motown and been successful as a group or as a solo, she would not have to bill herself as Mary Wilson of the Supremes. With hindsight it was a good idea that she stuck it out because we know how the story eventually played out. But in my mind there was an alternate story here, one where Mary Wilson doesn't need the name Supremes to sell herself. She wasted years in the Supremes. It was a dying group when Jean left. Mary is an underrated talent. She had the goods to succeed but never caught the breaks. I think even at this point she doesn't need to use the name. People know who Mary is, especially around the business. She could probably book quality gigs by picking up the phone and calling around her damn self. Lol Mary has always been a social butterfly.

I think Mary's confidence as a lead vocalist was shot by 1970. She should have eased her back into the forefront by taking on a few more leads instead of a few lines here and there and her solo Can't Take My Eyes Off Of You. I always felt sh had the goods but didn't capitalize on them until it was a bit too late.
As for her not leaving Motown and the Supreme name I think that would have cost Mary being in charge of the group with Lynda and Jean having more of a say how things would be run. You have to admit the name Supreme has served them all well, Diana included.
It's also ironic how Jean and Lynda wanted to give up the name in the 70's came back to use it in the 80's, just saying.

[sup_fan]

Mary's statement that there's a significant difference between being a lead singer and singing lead is very appropriate. by no means am I saying mary isn't talented or a great singer. I think she is both. but to be "mistress of ceremonies" is a very different responsibility.

[TheMotownManiac]

It was Motown who removed Frank Wilson from producing The Supremes.

Typically at Motown, when a producer got a hit on an act, that producer would continue working exclusively with that act until the hits stopped. That is how Smokey lost the Temptations to Norman Whitfield. It's also how Whitfield lost The Temptations in 1974. The hits dried up.

It was obvious to Ewart Abner and company that the failure of the Touch lp and single meant that a new producer was needed on The Supremes. Smokey was no longer touring with the Miracles and preferred working with the female artists at Motown. The Marvelettes split up earlier in 1971, so Suzanne dePasse asked Smokey to try something on The Supremes while other producers, including Clay McMurray, Ashford & Simpson and Bobby Taylor did productions on the Supremes. This was the foundation for the material that could have been used for the Promises Kept lp.

Floy Joy was a big enough hit record for the ladies to maintain their performance fee. The Floy Joy album sold better than the last two Frank Wilson lps and all of the Four Tops duet albums. Logically, another Smokey album would have been the wiser decision. But the groups' manager Wayne Weisbart got Jimmy Webb interested in doing an lp on the ladies. They embraced the idea because, Jean especially, wanted to do more serious music. And this was the rope they used to hang themselves.

The Jimmy Webb lp came out at the same time as Lady Sings. Everything was riding on Diana's movie so all promotion was given to her. Gordy could have lost Motown if that movie bombed. He was not interested in a new sound for The Supremes. Around this time his established artists like the 4 Tops, Gladys & The Pips, Ashford & Simpson and The Spinners vacated Motown. They could see the trend and knew they were on board a musical Titanic. In hind site, Jean was probably right that the group sign with ABC, change the name to something recognizable like Supreme Ladies. They'd have had a fighting chance.

Floy Joy was not enough to sustain their performance fees. By the time it had fallen off the chart, The Supremes had slipped enough to lose Vegas, open for the starting to slip Temptations and play rooms that seat 300-400. At more popular prices. They were not able just to get a tour of one nighters as headliners anymore. It’s sad.

i also do not believe that Lady promotion had any effect on Jimmy Webb. There wasn’t even a single for almost 3 months and having the #1 movie in the country for 5 weeks is promotion enough. It’s not like the soundtrack was getting radio play. What promotion went out on it? The album climbed to number one as more and more people saw it. It didn’t hit number one until after The Oscars. I seriously doubt Jimmy Webb was sacrificed to sell the soundtrack. Personally, I like the Webb album, but it had no commercial appeal and the cover is the worst in history. Jean does some terrific work, but to what end? The only track that had a chance was Tossin and Turning .......and even that needed some work.

Im thrilled with your Thom Bell info - what a killer idea - any info on why it didn’t happen? Clearly Berry was interested in the group if he was taking meetings with producers for them. There goes that theory of him wanting the group to fail.

[midnightman]

By '74, the Supremes were headlining at Disneyland...

Definitely a fall from grace. And it could've been avoided. And then hiring Pedro made things worse. :/

Like mentioned, Berry did try to bring back renewed interest to the Supremes but the public really had moved on... a shame considering all the talent they had, they could've really shined brighter than they did in the '70s.

[TheMotownManiac]

We're talking about the Supremes. It was different for Florence because she wasn't allowed to use her Supremes connection to get the promo [[the fact that her solo material was unfocused and badly produced was another reason Flo never really got her shine post-Supremes).

The Four Tops managed to score hits because they were big enough to still get ahead. I think it has to do with how business savvy you are and the Four Tops were the oldest Motown group in terms of age [[all of them were doggone near 40 when they signed with ABC in 1972 while two of the Supremes post DR were just 28).

And I don't think Mary was thinking of the future at the time or how to make sure they manage to leave the label with their name intact [[Motown never owned the Four Tops' name and Otis & Melvin were able to retain usage of the Temptations name before they left for Atlantic in 1977).

And like BMM just said, the Supremes were already legends by 1973. They could've found a way [[at least Mary anyway since she was the only original remaining at that point) to get back ownership of the name and move on with a label and get renewed push like the Tops did [[their last Motown recordings were duds but they revived themselves after the ABC move).

There is no way that Barry Gordy was ever going to allow the name of the Supremes to be used outside of the company…….There’s nothing that Mary could have done and Lord knows she tried as hard as any human could possibly try.

[TheMotownManiac]

By '74, the Supremes were headlining at Disneyland...

Definitely a fall from grace. And it could've been avoided. And then hiring Pedro made things worse. :/

Like mentioned, Berry did try to bring back renewed interest to the Supremes but the public really had moved on... a shame considering all the talent they had, they could've really shined brighter than they did in the '70s.

I never believe that A name is Dead until people stop trying. Certainly it is true that the public and move Don and really had no interest in this group of strangers that was once the Supremes, however, the right music would’ve made all the difference in the world. No one knew who Labelle was, no one knew who Honeycone wise, no one knew who Freda Payne was until they had music to put them on The map. The very same could be said for the Supremes. Had they been given don’t leave me this way, It would’ve hit just as big as it did with Thelma Houston, and the story of the Supremes might be a lot different. Tina turner went 10 years between hits and went on to become the biggest thing in the world… It all has to do with the music and star quality. It’s true That the 70s Supremes lacked star quality, But Jean was developing and had someone worked with Scherrie and the group… A couple hip stylists and a manager that knew what he was doing without an agenda to push mary forward, they could’ve built don’t leave me this way into a future. I think that’s why berry Gordy never gave up on them.

[sup_fan]

I would love to see what the supremes annual marketing and promotional budgets were starting in the DRATS era and continuing into the 70s. Motown was a company and so there was a set allocation of the overall annual budget towards promotion, marketing and so forth. I wonder if the % allocated to the girls started to decline due to 1) diminishing sales and 2) Lady sings the blues.

if you look at their early 70s work, there was definitely more money being spent on the lps themselves - Right On had a tear-away poster, New Ways had intricate die-cuts and a gatefold cover, Mag 7 had a gatefold, Touch had an entire promotional interview version of the LP released to DJ's.

I remember years ago seeing a press kit for the MJL lineup on ebay. it was that moth-image release, around the time of Jimmy Webb. unfortunately it ended up going for hundreds of $ and I bailed once I couldn't afford it any more. so someone else won. but it included the press releases and a variety of PR and marketing materials.

So in the 70s, what was the promotion dept doing for the girls?

-did they issue materials to major record stores and chains with promotional window packages, posters, displays, etc?

-Did the girls regularly perform and do promo work at the major radio and dj conventions around the US?

-did they did as many on-air radio interviews and promo work at the radio stations?

-why would they release a single in early July when there was limited tv exposure? they would have taped Sonny and Cher and Flip around then but the air dates were months later. releases should have been better timed with ability to promote live on tv

[RanRan79]

Sup fan you have very valid questions. I'd love for folks who were around then to provide some answers.

[gman]

When Jean arrived, the most recognizable gowns were only 2 years old...true, perhaps
in the Scherrie era it may have been time retire them, but the die hard fans loved the glitz. Bad Weather and the Webb LP see to be the "Fish" in the groups discography...you either love it or hate it.

It was obvious that with Cindy's return...a very recognizable face back in the line up, and Scherrie's inclusion....which brought a new updated sound and energy, the group was primed for a new audience and return to the charts. It was WAY TOO LONG without new product available in the stores to quickly achieve this. The audience that should have been pulled in by Scherrie's TV debut on the very popular Sonny & Cher Show and enticed by the very noticeable change [[including a rare, "new group" image boosting 3 way split lead vocal) had nothing to buy and support the group for 2 years.

"I'm Gonna Let My Heart Do The Walking" should have been issued in a 12" extended format....great song, right time, strong market. Like "Stoned Love" the 7" started
with a sloppy, what sounded like needle drop. "High Energy" should have been released as a single once "I'm Gonna Let My Heart Do The Walking" started to drop. Having the LP's title track become more familiar to the pubic would have pumped up the sales for what was the groups best and most up to date sounding & marketable album in years.

[Thornton]

When Jean arrived, the most recognizable gowns were only 2 years old...true, perhaps
in the Scherrie era it may have been time retire them, but the die hard fans loved the glitz. Bad Weather and the Webb LP see to be the "Fish" in the groups discography...you either love it or hate it.

It was obvious that with Cindy's return...a very recognizable face back in the line up, and Scherrie's inclusion....which brought a new updated sound and energy, the group was primed for a new audience and return to the charts. It was WAY TOO LONG without new product available in the stores to quickly achieve this. The audience that should have been pulled in by Scherrie's TV debut on the very popular Sonny & Cher Show and enticed by the very noticeable change [[including a rare, "new group" image boosting 3 way split lead vocal) had nothing to buy and support the group for 2 years.

"I'm Gonna Let My Heart Do The Walking" should have been issued in a 12" extended format....great song, right time, strong market. Like "Stoned Love" the 7" started
with a sloppy, what sounded like needle drop. "High Energy" should have been released as a single once "I'm Gonna Let My Heart Do The Walking" started to drop. Having the LP's title track become more familiar to the pubic would have pumped up the sales for what was the groups best and most up to date sounding & marketable album in years.

All good points. I like all the material JML produced, but it is controversial. They could have had a sweet live act [[I have my own dream set list), and included familiar cover songs by performing material from the Jimmy Webb album beyond just "Tossin' & Turnin'". I think it's also fair to consider what the personal lives of each member might have been like. We certainly know about Mary, who I think was trying to make the best decisions, even though the old songs and gowns were pretty cringe worthy.

As far as MSC, I think even if they could have gotten "It's All Been Said Before" out as a single in late 1974 that could have helped them. Put "The Shoop, Shoop Song" on the B-Side and you have two songs they could perform on television. As always, easy for me to say now all these years later not being in the thick of it.

[gman]

As a pre LP single in '74 it may have worked...and maybe push You Turn Me Around to AC stations...I think He's My Man was the best bet for pushing the LP...and Color My World Blue & Shoop would have worked well as singles.

[marv2]

As a pre LP single in '74 it may have worked...and maybe push You Turn Me Around to AC stations...I think He's My Man was the best bet for pushing the LP...and Color My World Blue & Shoop would have worked well as singles.

I like all of those songs too.

[bradsupremes]

As far as MSC, I think even if they could have gotten "It's All Been Said Before" out as a single in late 1974 that could have helped them. Put "The Shoop, Shoop Song" on the B-Side and you have two songs they could perform on television. As always, easy for me to say now all these years later not being in the thick of it.

I never understood the draw of "It's All Been Said Before." It's a good song, but it doesn't grab you. I always thought "The Sha-La Bandit" would have made a great single. I'm rather surprised it didn't get released on the Supremes '75 LP.

[gman]

That entire Lp sounded a lot fresher in the Spring of '75 than it does today...but much of what was out then also sounds aged...IABSB had a hook, and the strings coupled with the beat and Scherrie's belty vocal [[one of her beltiest I think) make it have at the time cross appeal.

[sup_fan]

there was more than enough material with the SMC lineup to do a couple of albums. They could have quickly done an album with It's All been Said, Shoop and the Ivey sessions [[Color my world, you can't stop a girl, etc). it would have been a solid pop album and I think very contemporary. Push that out in late 74 and do It's all been said as lead single and then Color as the follow up. Then in fall 75 do a disco album around the HDH tracks, He's My Man and the others.

[marv2]

I never understood the draw of "It's All Been Said Before." It's a good song, but it doesn't grab you. I always thought "The Sha-La Bandit" would have made a great single. I'm rather surprised it didn't get released on the Supremes '75 LP.

This would have been a perfect release as a single in say 1974:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9wVwIri6kE&spfreload=10

[marv2]

That entire Lp sounded a lot fresher in the Spring of '75 than it does today...but much of what was out then also sounds aged...IABSB had a hook, and the strings coupled with the beat and Scherrie's belty vocal [[one of her beltiest I think) make it have at the time cross appeal.

I did not care for "It's All Been Said Before" as much as I did "He's My Man" and "Color My World Blue". It just seem to march and march forward with zero changes and a non memorable chorus/hook or whatever you call it.

[Boogiedown]

"I'm Gonna Let My Heart Do The Walking" should have been issued in a 12" extended format....great song, right time, strong market. Like "Stoned Love" the 7" started
with a sloppy, what sounded like needle drop. "High Energy" should have been released as a single once "I'm Gonna Let My Heart Do The Walking" started to drop. Having the LP's title track become more familiar to the pubic would have pumped up the sales for what was the groups best and most up to date sounding & marketable album in years.

Yep! A 12" with a longer version would have gone a long ways into making this a hotter club property. Overall Motown was sorely lacking at fully utilizing their disco product and working the disco market . That's a shame because they produced some of the best. I don't know if they ever even had a disco dept. within their organization ?

[Boogiedown]

A big problem with BAD WEATHER is its internal conflict of concept. It makes no sense for the girls to be vocally upbeat , shimmering and half-stepping, and smiling ear to ear as Jean sings like a well-fed canary lyrics that are lamenting a flailing relationship with a doubtful future --- to a dance beat .:rolleyes:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mzZXYmSop5Q

[Bluebrock]

I never understood the draw of "It's All Been Said Before." It's a good song, but it doesn't grab you. I always thought "The Sha-La Bandit" would have made a great single. I'm rather surprised it didn't get released on the Supremes '75 LP.
I always loved it but thought it was too short. It faded out around 30 seconds before it should have done. It had a great hook and Scherrie was on fire vocally.Both this and "he's my man" had the potential to be major hit singles. When HMM flopped in both the usa and uk i knew it was all over for the Supremes.

[Bluebrock]

This would have been a perfect release as a single in say 1974:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9wVwIri6kE&spfreload=10
A beautiful tune for sure, and my personal favorite on the album.

[Thornton]

I never understood the draw of "It's All Been Said Before." It's a good song, but it doesn't grab you. I always thought "The Sha-La Bandit" would have made a great single. I'm rather surprised it didn't get released on the Supremes '75 LP.

It's not my favorite song either, but since it was one of the first songs MSC recorded together, it could have been put out prior to the '75 LP and "He's My Man". I paired it with "The Shoop, Shoop Song" since I believe both songs had the same producer. Both songs have 60's nostalgia, especially the latter, and that may have worked for the group in the mid-70's. I wasn't around so can't say what would have been popular.

[Thornton]

I always loved it but thought it was too short. It faded out around 30 seconds before it should have done. It had a great hook and Scherrie was on fire vocally.Both this and "he's my man" had the potential to be major hit singles. When HMM flopped in both the usa and uk i knew it was all over for the Supremes.

I overlooked "It's All Been Said Before" as a potential single for many years because it is so short, and the fade is too long. If they ever do a 70's Lost & Found I would love an extended version of the song.

[sup_fan]

another issue is that M and Pedro were determined to have her featured more heavily as the lead. so they wanted something like He's Me Man which showcased her more prominently as the single. Out of her dance leads on Sup 75, I think He's My Man is the strongest [[her ballads were excellent as usual) but I think there should have been more scherrie on the verses. Mary does an ok job but not an amazing job. when scherrie gets going towards the end, she blows it away. But you need something earlier in the piece to really grab listeners' attention. Mary just doesn't really do it. her leads on the verses are just too dull and low key. and this is a dance track - should be setting you on fire.

[marv2]

It's not my favorite song either, but since it was one of the first songs MSC recorded together, it could have been put out prior to the '75 LP and "He's My Man". I paired it with "The Shoop, Shoop Song" since I believe both songs had the same producer. Both songs have 60's nostalgia, especially the latter, and that may have worked for the group in the mid-70's. I wasn't around so can't say what would have been popular.

I was around and it would have been popular. I never could understand why everyone else could get their records recorded, released and radio back in 1974 except the Supremes. Even reading Mary's book about the situation still does not settle it for me.

[marv2]

another issue is that M and Pedro were determined to have her featured more heavily as the lead. so they wanted something like He's Me Man which showcased her more prominently as the single. Out of her dance leads on Sup 75, I think He's My Man is the strongest [[her ballads were excellent as usual) but I think there should have been more scherrie on the verses. Mary does an ok job but not an amazing job. when scherrie gets going towards the end, she blows it away. But you need something earlier in the piece to really grab listeners' attention. Mary just doesn't really do it. her leads on the verses are just too dull and low key. and this is a dance track - should be setting you on fire.

That [[featuring Mary Wilson more) started before she met Pedro Ferrer. Both Mary and Smokey Robinson concluded as far back as 1971 that since it looked like Mary was the only dedicated member, that her voice needed to be featured more for continuity. Most people were hearing Scherrie Payne for the first time once she joined the Supremes and who knew how long she would be there.

[sup_fan]

yeah I remember now hearing that too. but I remember hearing that Motown wasn't as in favor of it. And actually mary had been assuming more leading vocals throughout the 70s. so it wasn't a total surprise that she emerged on Sup 75 with half the leads. she had a 1/3 or more on Floy Joy [[lead on I Keep It Hid, co lead on FJ and AS, shared lead on Bitter/Sweet)

and I liked that she was taking on more. I think it definitely added a great dimension to the group. I just think He's My Man was a weaker song due to poorer lyrics. Not the worst in the Sup catalog but not the best by any means. The backing track is very strong. And this was to be a debut single for the new group. in order to make a mark, they needed everything at 100%. the lyrics are boarderline novelty and Mary's lead just isn't that amazing. maybe scherrie could have done the bulk of the verses and M and C joining in/trading off with some lead parts in the verses and chorus. Some more of Scherrie's firepower might have given it that extra oomph it needed. Of course without real heavy Motown promotion, it would still only gone so far. But they did a ton of tv with it and got quite a bit of buzz. I just think it's too goofy of a song to stage a comeback from

[Jimi LaLumia]

"It's All Been Said.." was the perfect early 70's 'plastic pop' single in the vein of "Love Grows Where My RoseMary Goes", "My Baby Loves Lovin" etc it would have been the "Where Did Our Love Go" for the 3rd incarnation of The Supremes, who top 40 always considered a pop group..stupid move, one of many stupid moves...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LyHxGhS9XqA

[daviddh]

i liked the Supremes 75 lp but still cant believe Bend A Little and Can WE Love Again were left off. I like Sha La Bandit as well.....Color My World Blue is a gem.love it

[Bluebrock]

another issue is that M and Pedro were determined to have her featured more heavily as the lead. so they wanted something like He's Me Man which showcased her more prominently as the single. Out of her dance leads on Sup 75, I think He's My Man is the strongest [[her ballads were excellent as usual) but I think there should have been more scherrie on the verses. Mary does an ok job but not an amazing job. when scherrie gets going towards the end, she blows it away. But you need something earlier in the piece to really grab listeners' attention. Mary just doesn't really do it. her leads on the verses are just too dull and low key. and this is a dance track - should be setting you on fire.
I agree. Scherrie should have done more of the vocals. She blows Mary away when she comes in. Mary's vocals on here are merely okay, nothing more. Maybe that was what held the song back. A stronger lead vocal could perhaps have lifted the whole song and given it even more commercial potential.

[Bluebrock]

"It's All Been Said.." was the perfect early 70's 'plastic pop' single in the vein of "Love Grows Where My RoseMary Goes", "My Baby Loves Lovin" etc it would have been the "Where Did Our Love Go" for the 3rd incarnation of The Supremes, who top 40 always considered a pop group..stupid move, one of many stupid moves...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LyHxGhS9XqA
Totally agree Jimi. It's commercial potential was just amazing, but it was too short.

[Bluebrock]

i liked the Supremes 75 lp but still cant believe Bend A Little and Can WE Love Again were left off. I like Sha La Bandit as well.....Color My World Blue is a gem.love it
I loved this album but there were a couple of clunkers on there. The dreary "where is it i belong" has got to be the dullest and most lifeless song the Supremes ever recorded. It just goes nowhere. The chorus should have been better rather than just repeating the same few words. Awful song. I also thought This is why i believe in you was too fast and frantic. Great vocals by Scherrie but better songs were left off the album.

[sup_fan]

I loved this album but there were a couple of clunkers on there. The dreary "where is it i belong" has got to be the dullest and most lifeless song the Supremes ever recorded. It just goes nowhere. The chorus should have been better rather than just repeating the same few words. Awful song. I also thought This is why i believe in you was too fast and frantic. Great vocals by Scherrie but better songs were left off the album.

I like many of the tracks but many i find pretty useless. the Ivey Woodford tracks are among my favorites. most of the disco tracks [[he's my man, where do i go) are pretty generic to me. not bad songs but nothing special. could have been sung by any group and therefore the don't strike me as "supreme." And i agree about Where Is It I belong - horrible.

[midnightman]

The delay in releases further led to the Supremes' decline.

[daviddh]

totally agree, I liked that Mary was given more to do but Scherrie was a powerhouse. I think if she did the entire lead, maybe......wonder if there is a version with Scherrie singing the entire lead.

[gman]

The delay in releases further led to the Supremes' decline.
I agree! ...it's all been said before...LOL!

[TheMotownManiac]

After all this chat, I brought a 70s Supremes mix tape to play at aerobics this morning. From what I could tell, all had at least heard of the Supremes and more than half thought it was “Diana Ross’ first group”. Their fave tracks: River Deep, Floy Joy and Tossin and Turnin. They also liked He’s My Man [[but some didn’t like Mary’s voice) and It’s All Been Said Before - HOWEVER both latter songs were too hard to understand a lot of the words. Although How they passed over my faves like UpThe Ladder, Stoned Love and Nathan, I Don’t know. But everyone dug the sound of HMM and IABSB. No one said they hated or disliked any of the others except a few didn’t really like bad weather.

Im convinced that had they released IABSB that it might worked better than HMM because it had a great sound in the bars and got a lot of play. It might have broken through in car radios if it got play. It really elevated the mood at aerobics more than any other. The Supremes hadn’t been in the top ten for 4 years and were basically off the map for two - that’s had to come back from for anyone. Martha couldn’t score with Bless You.

Yes, it’s too short, but HDH could have made it longer for the single, but even as it is, it was fun and unique.

Maybe, after the poor showing of the album, Motown felt it wasn’t worth trying. With the limited TV exposure it had, it still charted much worse than Jimmy Webb - so it’s not like the world was dying for a new album from the girls. The Tonight Show and Soul Train were enough to boost a strong product but in this case, didn’t seem to. Motown was having a crappy year and needed to sell something.

[sup_fan]

the tonight show performed did NOTHING to help album sales. that ranks up there as one of the worst live performances i've ever seen of the group. the band [[which isn't really their fault of course) sounds hideous and too brassy, mary's vocals are weak, scherrie misses a note or two, the choreography is a mess and how the heck do they expect to do any sort of dance moves in those Scarlett O'Hara dresses? i don't dislike the dresses but they're totally out of place for a disco number. or at least for the intricate choreography they were trying to do

[gman]

the '75 LP did get to #25 on the RnB chart....but even Touch got to #6 on the same chart.

[TheMotownManiac]

You’re 100% spot on - but at least millions knew there was a new Supremes album and didn’t seem to care. This is one major reason why they failed: many of their tv appearances were more of a hinderance than a help. It seems the more tv they did, the more they slipped. I loved those tonight show gowns, but how ludicrous to To a dance song in them LOL... They were clueless obviously as to how to present themselves and Mary, hogging the spotlight without singing lead, is incorrigible. I don’t buy Mary’s lack of confidence thing at all, I never heard a bad vocal from her live from 1966 People to 2017. She always handled the songs well, it’s her voice that a lot of folks don’t relate to. As a stylist, I’ve liked just about everything she’s ever, ever done.

[TheMotownManiac]

the '75 LP did get to #25 on the RnB chart....but even Touch got to #6 on the same chart.
25 is a disgrace for The Supremes on R&B chart, but ANOTHER new face and a returning face just made the identity of the group less familiar. They were now The Supremes in name only and it was just too late to put a group of strangers on TV or on album covers and expect the public to relate to them at all. They so needed a knock out record or TV appearance, they had the talent, but so did a thousand other groups.

[gman]

just a side note..MSS also did the Wanderama kids TV show on a Sunday morning. I believe it was a regional show, I saw it in '77 NY and I think thy lipsynched Driving Wheel, Let Yourself Go and Come Into My Life.

[TheMotownManiac]

I love this forum! Thank you! I’ve never heard of the show, but will put feelers out. Was it a local show or network or syndicated do you know?

[Jimi LaLumia]

wonderrama[[ not wander..lol)was on Channel 5 in NY then Metromedia before it became part of the Fox entertainmnt network

[sup_fan]

just a side note..MSS also did the Wanderama kids TV show on a Sunday morning. I believe it was a regional show, I saw it in '77 NY and I think thy lipsynched Driving Wheel, Let Yourself Go and Come Into My Life.

Wow!! That’s a new one. Wish more of these rare clips would come forward

[gman]

thanks Jim! I was trying to think of the host earlier but couldn't...now, hours later without even trying I'm sure the first was Sonny Fox and the 2nd was Bob McAllister. [[they used to sing "Doe's anybody here have an Artvok?") LOL!

[marv2]

just a side note..MSS also did the Wanderama kids TV show on a Sunday morning. I believe it was a regional show, I saw it in '77 NY and I think thy lipsynched Driving Wheel, Let Yourself Go and Come Into My Life.

MSS also appeared on Detroit's "The Scene" dance show in 1976. They were in Detroit celebrating the Supremes 15th Anniversary. They performed "I'm Gonna Let My Heart Do the Walking" and "You're What's Missing In My Life" along with being interviewed by Nat Morris.

[daviddh]

just a point, the Supremes had been off the charts for almost 2 years and were now back with a new lead singer.they had a new sound.
the younger fans didn't really know them that well. they knew the 60s supremes more or less, they needed to reach out to the younger record buying kids to get airplay. the older fans were still around but now split with the group and Diana solo.
what people also fail to realize is that Diana struggled in the 70s as well. it wasn't until Lady Sings that she began to really gain ground but then even she was off the charts again for almost 2 years, until Theme from Mahogany.
I do recall that Scherrie was under contract with another label and had to wait 1 year to record with the Supremes and a contract with the Supremes had expired and they had to wait until the new contracts were signed to record a new album. I think Motown was hoping Mary would give up.
also Berry offered to manage the group twice, once with Jean in the group and then again with Scherrie , Mary Wilson turned him down both times, but yet complained Motown didn't do enough for them. strange to me ,..and this seems to be a pattern that would repeat it self later.
I think Its All Been Said should have been the first single in 1974.totally agree
Color My World Blue is the highlight of the album.
Hes My Man should have had more Scherrie on lead but we all know how it turned out.
now I am not attacking Mary, I like her on the ballads, but not the disco leads as much but as an original I was glad to see her do more ,but not at the groups expense. I think her leads on Floy Joy were right and gave a nice edge to the songs as there were times , just to much Jean.....
bottom line ,I think some forget how Diana had songs and albums that failed or didn't do as well.

[blackguy69]

just a point, the Supremes had been off the charts for almost 2 years and were now back with a new lead singer.they had a new sound.
the younger fans didn't really know them that well. they knew the 60s supremes more or less, they needed to reach out to the younger record buying kids to get airplay. the older fans were still around but now split with the group and Diana solo.
what people also fail to realize is that Diana struggled in the 70s as well. it wasn't until Lady Sings that she began to really gain ground but then even she was off the charts again for almost 2 years, until Theme from Mahogany.
I do recall that Scherrie was under contract with another label and had to wait 1 year to record with the Supremes and a contract with the Supremes had expired and they had to wait until the new contracts were signed to record a new album. I think Motown was hoping Mary would give up.
also Berry offered to manage the group twice, once with Jean in the group and then again with Scherrie , Mary Wilson turned him down both times, but yet complained Motown didn't do enough for them. strange to me ,..and this seems to be a pattern that would repeat it self later.
I think Its All Been Said should have been the first single in 1974.totally agree
Color My World Blue is the highlight of the album.
Hes My Man should have had more Scherrie on lead but we all know how it turned out.
now I am not attacking Mary, I like her on the ballads, but not the disco leads as much but as an original I was glad to see her do more ,but not at the groups expense. I think her leads on Floy Joy were right and gave a nice edge to the songs as there were times , just to much Jean.....
bottom line ,I think some forget how Diana had songs and albums that failed or didn't do as well.
Actually Motown managed them til 75

[marv2]

The Supremes were an expensive act to present to the public. They required songwriters, producers, musicians, dress designers, choreographers, hair and make-up people, publicists, booking agents, stage managers, etc, etc.

Consider another group that had become very popular at that time in the mid-70s, Rufus. Just as an example. They wrote some, if not most of their own material, they wore their own clothes on stage and television. They played their own music and there was no real choreography to deal with. There were many more "self contained groups" coming onto the music scene in the 70s that did not require so much manpower to get to them in front of the public.

[gman]

And all of it was billed against the groups royalty roll....maybe we should consider that when we think of the old gowns issue. I am also guessing that there were at least 2 changes...perhaps one "classic" gown and one new one per performance?

[kenneth]

I was too young when the Supremes were in their heyday with Diane, though I bought most of their albums as oldies. I started really listening to and buying records in the early 70s. I heard and loved the Jean Terrell led tracks but didn't buy the albums when they were first out. I was only about 10-12 at that time. The first Supremes album I bought when it first came out was "Supremes [['75)" and I really liked it.

I was aware that there was a new lead singer but really didn't care much about the comings and goings. I just liked "He's My Man," and pretty much the entire album. I think I've also mentioned before that I actually thought the album cover pictured 2 different lineups. To me, Cindy is easily recognizable on the cover but the back photo looks nothing like her. I was convinced at the time it was a different singer. Cindy is so distinctive looking, especially around the eyes, that for some reason the back cover photo looks retouched or something; I just don't see Cindy when I look at that photo!

To me this version of the group, this lineup, just seemed younger and hipper than even the Terrell led version. They dressed younger. They weren't as often seen [[at least on TV) in the gowns but sometimes appeared in slacks or pant suits. To me the old clips of Diane and the others in their gowns just seemed kind of quaint and matronly, at least to my young eyes.

I did love the '75 album, but I guess by then the group had pretty much run its course. I think Suzanne de Passe said it best in an article or perhaps one of Mary's books, when she said, as with any group, they eventually run out of steam and it's seldom to do with lack of talent or musicality. The Supremes certainly had a great run, and while after Diane there may have been no standout superstar, in my opinion adding the 3 singers together the M-S-S lineup had the most talent of all the lineups but ultimately [[and ironically) were the least successful. This seems to kind of bear out what de Passe had stated.

But they had a great run and how fortunate that they left behind so much great music.

[midnightman]

I guess I'd be playing against the two sides of the coin when I mention that not that many of Motown's "legacy" acts [[as Diana/The Supremes were starting to be in 1970) could survive the Jackson 5's onslaught on the charts? And that they had to make adjustments to continue to compete during the early to mid-70s?

[gman]

Plus, in addition to the '69- '72 period being the era of the songwriter performer, there were a superfluous amount of one hit wonders who had very very big hits. Between the first issue of Time Life's "Sounds of the 70's" and Rhino's "Have A Nice Day" series I was able to toss over 200 well played singles.

[Bluebrock]

totally agree, I liked that Mary was given more to do but Scherrie was a powerhouse. I think if she did the entire lead, maybe......wonder if there is a version with Scherrie singing the entire lead.
David - you need to clear some of your inbox. I couldn't reply to your recent message buddy.

[marv2]

Plus, in addition to the '69- '72 period being the era of the songwriter performer, there were a superfluous amount of one hit wonders who had very very big hits. Between the first issue of Time Life's "Sounds of the 70's" and Rhino's "Have A Nice Day" series I was able to toss over 200 well played singles.

There was a LOT of music out there in the 70s. I listen to the radio all the time. So many acts ,so many good songs. It was not at all like today.

[kenneth]

Plus, in addition to the '69- '72 period being the era of the songwriter performer, there were a superfluous amount of one hit wonders who had very very big hits. Between the first issue of Time Life's "Sounds of the 70's" and Rhino's "Have A Nice Day" series I was able to toss over 200 well played singles.

I love the "Have a Nice Day" series, all 26 [[?) volumes of it. What a fun set that is. Every once in a while I work my way through all the volumes. Lots of great songs and yes, many one hit wonders!

I don't have the Time Life series you mention but I have another one which is "Love in the 70s" or something like that, also a fun set.

At the time a lot of the music was too "mild" for me - I was probably only listening to disco [[!) at the time - but I love it all now. That's happened to me so often. Groups like the Carpenters, Debby Boone, all these singers I considered too "unhip," now I love them. Go figure!

[midnightman]

Yeah the singer-songwriter era was in full swing so songs that were cultivated by writers and producers to non-songwriting acts lost its luster for a time [[at least until disco arrived).