Diana Ross, The 5th Dimension and "Love Hangover"

[dylan]

In PeaceNHarmony's "'Ain't No Mountain ...' - Vikki Carr?" thread, The 5th Dimension's "Love Hangover" is brought up.
Here's what Lamonte McLemore wrote in his book:
"From Hobo Flats to the 5th Dimension: A Life Fulfilled in Baseball, Photography and Music by LaMonte McLemore as told to Robert Allan-Arno"
[[Copyright © 2014 LaMonte McLemore and Robert Allan-Arno)

----
Like with Earthbound, there are some stories floating around our next song choice, but I'll state here that it was my idea for The 5th Dimension to record Love Hangover" from Diana Ross's album Diana. My heart raced as I said aloud to myself, "Finally, here's that really good dance record I've been dreaming of!" As soon as I heard it on Diana's latest project, I zoomed it over to our manager, Marc, and he agreed it would put us back on the map...

Meanwhile, Miss Ross had released another song [["I Thought It Took A Little Time") as a single from her album. Diana was appearing in London, and my good friend Gil Askey, her conductor- a true gentlemen who we recently lost- called me from overseas and related with shy if not sly amusement, "Hey, man, that song 'Love Hangover' that ya'll did..."
"Yeah, Gil, The 5th Dimension is thrilled with this one," I interrupted.
Gil went on, "Well, Diane called me while catching it on the radio and said, "Good, I told Berry we should release that song as a single... uh damn, now wait a minute, that's not my f-ckin' song!" Even the biggest Urban DJ in the country, Frankie Crocker out of New York's WBLS, had our single of "Hangover" going way up the chart until Diana allegedly told Berry, "Screw my current single! Stop that and put 'Love Hangover' out now! And whatever it takes, squash the 5th Dimension's record!"

So all of a sudden, our single-- one we had just performed on Dick Clark's American Bandstand-- wasn't played. Later, when Florence and I went to see Diane performing her acclaimed one-woman show on Broadway, An Evening With Diana Ross, she spied us in the front row, stopped dead in her tracks, and had the spotlight placed as if we were in a police lineup. As she pointed to a frozen Florence and me from center stage, she snarled with a smile, "Now there's the enemy!" She was trying to be funny... but the lady meant buisness.
----

"From Hobo Flats to the 5th Dimension: A Life Fulfilled in Baseball, Photography and Music by LaMonte McLemore as told to Robert Allan-Arno"

[[Copyright © 2014 LaMonte McLemore and Robert Allan-Arno)

[sup_fan]

hey - if you snag another person's song and basically try to scam if for yourself, then you get what you deserve. It's not like they happened to record their version first and were unfairly squashed by the motown machine.

[marv2]

hey - if you snag another person's song and basically try to scam if for yourself, then you get what you deserve. It's not like they happened to record their version first and were unfairly squashed by the motown machine.

There is so much more to be learned from Lamont's account if you read just a little between the lines. I'm laughing because I told you she was like that! LOL!!! It gives you an idea of how some records either didn't played or got squashed by Motown!

[PeaceNHarmony]

In PeaceNHarmony's "'Ain't No Mountain ...' - Vikki Carr?" thread, The 5th Dimension's "Love Hangover" is brought up.
Here's what Lamonte McLemore wrote in his book:
"From Hobo Flats to the 5th Dimension: A Life Fulfilled in Baseball, Photography and Music by LaMonte McLemore as told to Robert Allan-Arno"
[[Copyright © 2014 LaMonte McLemore and Robert Allan-Arno)

----
Like with Earthbound, there are some stories floating around our next song choice, but I'll state here that it was my idea for The 5th Dimension to record Love Hangover" from Diana Ross's album Diana. My heart raced as I said aloud to myself, "Finally, here's that really good dance record I've been dreaming of!" As soon as I heard it on Diana's latest project, I zoomed it over to our manager, Marc, and he agreed it would put us back on the map...

Meanwhile, Miss Ross had released another song [["I Thought It Took A Little Time") as a single from her album. Diana was appearing in London, and my good friend Gil Askey, her conductor- a true gentlemen who we recently lost- called me from overseas and related with shy if not sly amusement, "Hey, man, that song 'Love Hangover' that ya'll did..."
"Yeah, Gil, The 5th Dimension is thrilled with this one," I interrupted.
Gil went on, "Well, Diane called me while catching it on the radio and said, "Good, I told Berry we should release that song as a single... uh damn, now wait a minute, that's not my f-ckin' song!" Even the biggest Urban DJ in the country, Frankie Crocker out of New York's WBLS, had our single of "Hangover" going way up the chart until Diana allegedly told Berry, "Screw my current single! Stop that and put 'Love Hangover' out now! And whatever it takes, squash the 5th Dimension's record!"

So all of a sudden, our single-- one we had just performed on Dick Clark's American Bandstand-- wasn't played. Later, when Florence and I went to see Diane performing her acclaimed one-woman show on Broadway, An Evening With Diana Ross, she spied us in the front row, stopped dead in her tracks, and had the spotlight placed as if we were in a police lineup. As she pointed to a frozen Florence and me from center stage, she snarled with a smile, "Now there's the enemy!" She was trying to be funny... but the lady meant buisness.
----

"From Hobo Flats to the 5th Dimension: A Life Fulfilled in Baseball, Photography and Music by LaMonte McLemore as told to Robert Allan-Arno"

[[Copyright © 2014 LaMonte McLemore and Robert Allan-Arno)


Old news. We've already read this rather sad and embittered series of quotes by McLemore. Among other ... inconsistencies ... I would bet pretty much anything that Ross never said anything even close to "Screw my current single! Stop that and put 'Love Hangover' out now! And whatever it takes, squash the 5th Dimension's record!". That's a line straight out of a Joan Crawford movie. We've known for decades that Gordy called the shots about what was released and that was one of the major reasons for Diana's departure from Motown. Nice try, McLemore, but a major fail. Shows to go 'ya that 'bitch' is not a female-only character description.

[RanRan79]

Uh...yeah, I'm calling bullshit. I don't think it's a stretch to believe that after "I Thought It Took a Little Time" peaked at whatever position it was destined to reach, that Motown had "Love Hangover"- an obvious hit- poised to be the next release. I also imagine that when Motown learned that the 5th had released their version of what was probably already on the docket as the next Ross single, it went into overdrive to send Diana's "Hangover" out [[the same way Motown did when it learned of the other version of "Come See About Me") because they wouldn't want to risk her version failing because the public had basically already heard the song before. Apparently both singles entered the chart on the same day with the 5th's version stalling at #80. I've listened to both songs. There's a chance that the 5th's version would have done better than #80 if it didn't have to compete with Diana Ross' version. But I don't believe for one single moment that the 5th's version needed to be "squashed" by anyone. One listen to Ross' version and there doesn't seem to be much competition, but of course that's a matter of personal taste and not based on fact. What is a fact is that if a dj had the choice between a Diana Ross record and a 5th Dimension record of the same song in 1976, the 5th would not get a play. Diana wouldn't need to tell anyone to squash anything. Motown wouldn't even need to squash it if they wanted to. The djs knew they would get listeners with a Diana Ross record. Who was really checking for the 5th Dimension? "Love Hangover" by Diana Ross was a no brainer #1. Does anyone think the 5th was hitting number one with their version? I don't. Mr. McLemore's story is funny though, fact or fiction not mattering.

[Albator]

It seems Diana was hurt by this "love hangover" fight. There is an interview in UK, I think, she talks of that. About singer stealing song from another , she said "someone did that to me".

[luke]

I Willl survive??? Hmmmm

[Guy]

Martha Wash once claimed, somewhat bitterly, that Sylvester first recorded "Love Hangover." Almost implying that Ross had scooped Sylvester's version. Is that true? If so, I've never heard his version.

[Roberta75]

I Willl survive??? Hmmmm

Real bad example. Gloria Gaynor recorded it and release in 1978. Diane Ross released her version in 1995 17 years LATER and Billie Jo Spears recorded her version in 1979 and Cecilia Cruz record her Spanish version in 2000. Hmmmmmmm.

[Albator]

Gladys Knight released "the way we were" one year after Barbra's n°1 hit.

I think there were three different "let's go up" at the same time in 83.

[gman]

I think the damaging part was that the 5th really needed a big hit. Billy & Marilyn had gone by this time. The group quickly needed to establish itself as continuing top chart performers, just like the Supremes did after DR left...If LH wasn't already pegged for the next DR single, I Thought It Took A Little Time would have had a longer life. It is an excellent ballard performance. Too bad the stars didn't line up in '75/'76 for 4 major hits in rapid succession [[DYK?. ITITALT, LH and One Love In My Lifetime)...1979/80 did that trick though.

[TheMotownManiac]

What a crock of crap. Ross telling BG what to release? To dump a soaring Michael Masser follow up for a dance track? LOL. I give her props if she did say it, but I don’t believe she’s that savvy and was busy doing her tour and Mahogany premiers and planning her Oscar appearance via sattellite. It was the smart thing to do, and if the group needed a hit, that’s not Ross’ Problem. Remember Nella Dodds? LOL........

more crap: both songs entered the hot 100 at the same time, which is radio gonna play? The original version from a very recent #1 artist, or the copy from a group of has been? I don’t believe Motown quashed anything, but I give them credit if they did!

‘’some people will write ANYTHING to sell books.

[PeaceNHarmony]

What a crock of crap. Ross telling BG what to release? To dump a soaring Michael Masser follow up for a dance track? LOL. I give her props if she did say it, but I don’t believe she’s that savvy and was busy doing her tour and Mahogany premiers and planning her Oscar appearance via sattellite. It was the smart thing to do, and if the group needed a hit, that’s not Ross’ Problem. Remember Nella Dodds? LOL........

more crap: both songs entered the hot 100 at the same time, which is radio gonna play? The original version from a very recent #1 artist, or the copy from a group of has been? I don’t believe Motown quashed anything, but I give them credit if they did!

‘’some people will write ANYTHING to sell books.
Yes, indeed, all around. The verbal statements attributed to Ross are utterly absurd. And, here's a SHOCK - the entertainment business is "sometimes" known for being ... just a little ... competitive. And particularly unfortunate that a Black man would choose to denigrate a successful Black woman decades later to get a little publicity for his bomb of a memoir. From Amazon: Amazon Best Sellers Rank: #427,089 in Books

[TheMotownManiac]

Let’s not forget how many books have been sold denigrating just that one successful black woman. Even Gladys Knight was using that 50 year old “ they kicked us off the tour because diana ross could not stand the competition “ nugget To get attention for her most recent album. That Story has had more performances than South Pacific!

[RanRan79]

To be fair, there is a difference between telling the truth and using old news for some nefarious purpose. Gladys wrote about what she believed happened in her book, which was her right to do [[and IMO it wasn't far fetched). Since that time she has been asked about it. And the last time I saw her mention it, Sway, who's show I am a big fan of, asked her about it and she answered him. She also mentioned what happened when she brought the subject up to Diana when they spoke about it in their adult years. I thought the statement not only showed how classy Gladys is by including information that messy people would have kept to themselves in order to continue to paint Ross in a bad light, but also how Diana has proven that she has become a wise adult by being able to look back and see her own personal growth. As I move through my 30s I'm starting to learn that wisdom is not automatic for people twice my age, as the old adage would have us believe. Kudos to Gladys and Diana.

[marv2]

Let’s not forget how many books have been sold denigrating just that one successful black woman. Even Gladys Knight was using that 50 year old “ they kicked us off the tour because diana ross could not stand the competition “ nugget To get attention for her most recent album. That Story has had more performances than South Pacific!

They weren't making it up and no one got sued! LOL!!!

[TheMotownManiac]

Oh, I believe it’s true for sure - my point is that people use Ross for attention when they can’t generate enough interest about themselves. I most certainly do believe she had Gladys removed pronto!

[Roberta75]

They weren't making it up and no one got sued! LOL!!!

"Originally Posted by marv2 October 2016
I don't even go into most Diana Ross threads on here."

lolololololol

[midnightman]

Berry Gordy/Motown was very competitive with other labels/artists in the same label.

The times that occur when Love Hangover was released in 1976 was very different from NOW.

Back then, you had labels competing with different versions of the same song, sometimes once at a time, which is why a lot of lawsuits happened.

When Marilyn McLeod and Hal Davis first created Love Hangover, they had MARVIN GAYE in mind. But they figured correctly that Marvin wouldn't just sing a song just given to him [[otherwise, he just take it and turn it into something else; or as Smokey Robinson once said "Marvinize it") so they had Diana in mind.

Motown often would have artists using the same song too. The Fifth Dimension were not at their A-game at the time Motown issued their version. At all. This is when Marilyn McCoo and Billy Davis had left them for a splinter career as a duo, singing "You Don't Have to Be a Star to Be In My Show". The Fifth Dimension was yesterday's news and had went from a label that had made them quality material to a label that had no means for them [[Motown).

And that's not to slight Motown because Motown was going through a huge financial mess at the time [[and Berry fighting against the IRS for back tax issues) but the Fifth Dimension entered a Motown that had lost its luster. At this point, the only artists keeping Motown afloat at this time was Marvin, Stevie Wonder and Diana Ross [[and to a smaller degree, Smokey Robinson). The Miracles had just left Motown despite the huge success of Love Machine a year before; the Temptations left that year for Atlantic; the Supremes were on their final legs, etc.

So entering a label that was getting beat by Philadelphia International often and also seeing disco taking over from the pop/R&B/soul sound that Motown helped to perfect a decade before, why does ANYONE in here think the Fifth Dimension had a decent chance to have a hit with this?

Motown put it out on Diana because they felt Diana was not connecting to the record public at that time. They felt she was too adult contemporary and needed to get Diana to a new generation [[disco fans). Motown was smart to put it out on Diana. Diana had a #1 hit the previous year, so they needed to continue the hit machine. It was a smart move looking back 41 years before. The Fifth Dimension had no chance to have a huge hit with it.

I don't know where Lamonte got it that Diana was calling the shots [[she obviously wasn't; her payroll was less than $250,000 when she left Motown in 1981; you'd think if she had that much control then, she'd be paid more, would she not?) but I see he's bitter that the group's obvious last chance to get back to the pop charts got stopped because BERRY and the Motown staff felt their version would not connect.

It was all Berry, I believe. Diana might've complained [[and it's possible she did), but Berry could've said "look Diana, this and that happens and you gotta deal with it". Berry was the one with the power to decide if someone should be in this position or not. If you're gonna blame anyone for why that person's version of that song didn't hit, it would be Berry.

I mean, let's flip it to a male artist doing the same thing. Let's say a group like, uh, the Elgins had recorded "How Sweet It Is", and it was released first and Berry Gordy decided "you know what, Marvin also has recorded this song and we're gonna release his too at the same time" and because he had a much bigger pull than the Elgins, he gets the hit, and then 50 years later, Sandra Edwards writes a book and says "Marvin was sneaky and told Berry to put his version out and he stole our hit". Would you believe it or just shrug it off?

In fact, that's exactly what Gladys Knight implied when Marvin's version of "I Heard It Through the Grapevine" was released [[despite the fact that Marvin's version was recorded before Gladys'). In fact, Gladys alleged that Marvin's version had used the instrumental for another Gladys song, which Marvin laughed off.

No one believed Gladys when she alleged Marvin stole her hit, but we're supposed to believe Diana stole the Fifth Dimension's? I mean if we're gonna call Diana a diva for what happened with Love Hangover, we should call Marvin a diva for what happened with Grapevine.

Just saying.

[TheMotownManiac]

Gladys did 3 interviews in one week and every one asked about it - every time she acted like “oh, how scandalous - you’re going there???” Her tv interview headline was not her new album, the dirt on her son’s restaurants, her career or upcoming dates - it was this 50 year old story that she HAD to have used for bait to get the interview. No way did 3 different interviewees just happen to ask about this all of the sudden. It IS a good story, though. Much like “Mary Wilson talks Supremes Reunion” just to find out it’s not happening. Why not , “Mary Wilson’s 16 Year Album Project Near Completion?’’ You know why. So does Gladys.

[midnightman]

Or like when she brings up that Aretha rolled her eyes at her at the airplane shortly after their version of "Grapevine" became a hit lol

Gladys lives for the old drama haha

She did say that she and Diana made peace years later so there's that.

I love me some Miss Knight now but the truth's the truth. She also claimed she and the Pips were always considered less than other groups but besides from the Temptations, I don't know any other group in the late '60s that was vital to that label as Gladys Knight and the Pips were between 1967 and 1972. In fact, they were the second most popular group as far as CONSISTENT chart success after the Tempts [[with the Supremes - both DR&TS and post-DR - at a close third).

But that's another topic. We're just bringing it up as an example.

[TheMotownManiac]

Berry Gordy/Motown was very competitive with other labels/artists in the same label.

The times that occur when Love Hangover was released in 1976 was very different from NOW.

Back then, you had labels competing with different versions of the same song, sometimes once at a time, which is why a lot of lawsuits happened.

When Marilyn McLeod and Hal Davis first created Love Hangover, they had MARVIN GAYE in mind. But they figured correctly that Marvin wouldn't just sing a song just given to him [[otherwise, he just take it and turn it into something else; or as Smokey Robinson once said "Marvinize it") so they had Diana in mind.

Motown often would have artists using the same song too. The Fifth Dimension were not at their A-game at the time Motown issued their version. At all. This is when Marilyn McCoo and Billy Davis had left them for a splinter career as a duo, singing "You Don't Have to Be a Star to Be In My Show". The Fifth Dimension was yesterday's news and had went from a label that had made them quality material to a label that had no means for them [[Motown).

And that's not to slight Motown because Motown was going through a huge financial mess at the time [[and Berry fighting against the IRS for back tax issues) but the Fifth Dimension entered a Motown that had lost its luster. At this point, the only artists keeping Motown afloat at this time was Marvin, Stevie Wonder and Diana Ross [[and to a smaller degree, Smokey Robinson). The Miracles had just left Motown despite the huge success of Love Machine a year before; the Temptations left that year for Atlantic; the Supremes were on their final legs, etc.

So entering a label that was getting beat by Philadelphia International often and also seeing disco taking over from the pop/R&B/soul sound that Motown helped to perfect a decade before, why does ANYONE in here think the Fifth Dimension had a decent chance to have a hit with this?

Motown put it out on Diana because they felt Diana was not connecting to the record public at that time. They felt she was too adult contemporary and needed to get Diana to a new generation [[disco fans). Motown was smart to put it out on Diana. Diana had a #1 hit the previous year, so they needed to continue the hit machine. It was a smart move looking back 41 years before. The Fifth Dimension had no chance to have a huge hit with it.

I don't know where Lamonte got it that Diana was calling the shots [[she obviously wasn't; her payroll was less than $250,000 when she left Motown in 1981; you'd think if she had that much control then, she'd be paid more, would she not?) but I see he's bitter that the group's obvious last chance to get back to the pop charts got stopped because BERRY and the Motown staff felt their version would not connect.

It was all Berry, I believe. Diana might've complained [[and it's possible she did), but Berry could've said "look Diana, this and that happens and you gotta deal with it". Berry was the one with the power to decide if someone should be in this position or not. If you're gonna blame anyone for why that person's version of that song didn't hit, it would be Berry.

I mean, let's flip it to a male artist doing the same thing. Let's say a group like, uh, the Elgins had recorded "How Sweet It Is", and it was released first and Berry Gordy decided "you know what, Marvin also has recorded this song and we're gonna release his too at the same time" and because he had a much bigger pull than the Elgins, he gets the hit, and then 50 years later, Sandra Edwards writes a book and says "Marvin was sneaky and told Berry to put his version out and he stole our hit". Would you believe it or just shrug it off?

In fact, that's exactly what Gladys Knight implied when Marvin's version of "I Heard It Through the Grapevine" was released [[despite the fact that Marvin's version was recorded before Gladys'). In fact, Gladys alleged that Marvin's version had used the instrumental for another Gladys song, which Marvin laughed off.

No one believed Gladys when she alleged Marvin stole her hit, but we're supposed to believe Diana stole the Fifth Dimension's? I mean if we're gonna call Diana a diva for what happened with Love Hangover, we should call Marvin a diva for what happened with Grapevine.

Just saying.

the 5th Dimension didn’t sign with Motown until 1977 or 78. Love Hangover was issued, I believe, on Bell. All that Gladys Grapevine crap is so petty and tired. Both versions rock, but Marvin’s was bigger - does that take anything away from her huge success? Marvin’s has stood the test of time and 50 years later remains iconic. Gladys’ is basically forgotten - but she has Midnight Train that she gives no credit to Cisco Houston for. Just sayin.......

[TheMotownManiac]

Or like when she brings up that Aretha rolled her eyes at her at the airplane shortly after their version of "Grapevine" became a hit lol

Gladys lives for the old drama haha

She did say that she and Diana made peace years later so there's that.

I love me some Miss Knight now but the truth's the truth. She also claimed she and the Pips were always considered less than other groups but besides from the Temptations, I don't know any other group in the late '60s that was vital to that label as Gladys Knight and the Pips were between 1967 and 1972. In fact, they were the second most popular group as far as CONSISTENT chart success after the Tempts [[with the Supremes - both DR&TS and post-DR - at a close third).

But that's another topic. We're just bringing it up as an example.

she just loves to whine and complain, but what a voice - the best female voice Motown ever had IMO.

[PeaceNHarmony]

Let’s not forget how many books have been sold denigrating just that one successful black woman. Even Gladys Knight was using that 50 year old “ they kicked us off the tour because diana ross could not stand the competition “ nugget To get attention for her most recent album. That Story has had more performances than South Pacific!
Gladys [[and the He-Man Wimmin/Diana-Hatin' Club members here:rolleyes:also 'forget' that Gladys 'stole' MTTG from Cissy Houston. But that does not fit into their narrative, does it?

[RanRan79]

They weren't making it up and no one got sued! LOL!!!

Unless any of us were present, we can't know what is truth and what isn't. Just because a lawsuit isn't brought doesn't mean what was said is true. If your train of thought is along these lines, then am I safe in assuming that you believe all the nasty things Tony Turner wrote about Mary Wilson in his books? Because I have yet to hear Mary threaten a lawsuit. Most of these kinds of books get written and the writers can just about allege anything, especially if they say someone told them. You certainly have extreme cases that do get legal attention, such as when Tony Turner planned to write a book about Berry Gordy molesting him. Pedophilia and immature young adult antics are two very different things.

[midnightman]

And Tony Turner wrote TONS of stories that defamed Mary but she didn't entertain a lawsuit.

Had one story calling her a pampered diva getting into fights with Eddie, David and Martha. Tony was like what Media Take Out is NOW.

[midnightman]

the 5th Dimension didn’t sign with Motown until 1977 or 78. Love Hangover was issued, I believe, on Bell. All that Gladys Grapevine crap is so petty and tired. Both versions rock, but Marvin’s was bigger - does that take anything away from her huge success? Marvin’s has stood the test of time and 50 years later remains iconic. Gladys’ is basically forgotten - but she has Midnight Train that she gives no credit to Cisco Houston for. Just sayin.......

OK, so they were on another label. So that just goes with my first sentence that Motown was in competition with other labels and it wasn't just simple for other labels to use the same song. I had forgotten when 5D joined Motown so thanks for clarifying. So they were on their last legs at Bell when their version of "Hangover" came out. As for Sylvester's version, I don't think it ever came out. It must've been just a performance Martha was talking about since I don't know if he ever did a recording of it.

Then again, everyone wants to claim they recorded a song before Motown touched it. LOL

[RanRan79]

Gladys did 3 interviews in one week and every one asked about it - every time she acted like “oh, how scandalous - you’re going there???” Her tv interview headline was not her new album, the dirt on her son’s restaurants, her career or upcoming dates - it was this 50 year old story that she HAD to have used for bait to get the interview. No way did 3 different interviewees just happen to ask about this all of the sudden. It IS a good story, though. Much like “Mary Wilson talks Supremes Reunion” just to find out it’s not happening. Why not , “Mary Wilson’s 16 Year Album Project Near Completion?’’ You know why. So does Gladys.

Maniac I love ya, but I can't take you seriously at this point. Gladys Knight is a indisputable LEGEND. She does not need Diana Ross to have folks pay attention to her, anymore than Diana would need some other woman in order for folks to pay attention to her. Come on now. You know as well as I do that the interviewer asks a question and the interviewer/producer/network sets the headline. And in today's media, sadly, drama and controversy is what the press/media goes for. And if the story is picked up once, other outlets typically follow with the same line of questioning. That's the nature of the biz. If you expect me to believe that Gladys wakes up in the morning and instructs her people to line up interviews so she can talk about Diana Ross...I can't. I won't. This "everybody hates Diana" stuff from the pro Ross crowd is as weak as the "everybody hates Diana" stuff from the pro Wilson crowd, albeit for a different reason of course.

[midnightman]

^ I don't believe that either lol

I'm with ya, RanRan!

[TheMotownManiac]

Mary was fairly lawsuit happy at the time and I believe she did sing Reflections to her coke pusher for more powder or she would have sued or threatened to. So what? No one writes dirt on themselves - including Diana. She didn’t tell about still seeing Eddie Kendricks after he was married. I give Ross credit for one thing, she didn’t use her book to diss others. Might have been a better read if she had! LOL

[TheMotownManiac]

Maniac I love ya, but I can't take you seriously at this point. Gladys Knight is a indisputable LEGEND. She does not need Diana Ross to have folks pay attention to her, anymore than Diana would need some other woman in order for folks to pay attention to her. Come on now. You know as well as I do that the interviewer asks a question and the interviewer/producer/network sets the headline. And in today's media, sadly, drama and controversy is what the press/media goes for. And if the story is picked up once, other outlets typically follow with the same line of questioning. That's the nature of the biz. If you expect me to believe that Gladys wakes up in the morning and instructs her people to line up interviews so she can talk about Diana Ross...I can't. I won't. This "everybody hates Diana" stuff from the pro Ross crowd is as weak as the "everybody hates Diana" stuff from the pro Wilson crowd, albeit for a different reason of course.
Hey - I’m not pro-ross but I love her. I love Gladys. I do not believe that those three interviewers just happened to bring that topic up when the previous 500 did not. One? Sure. Two??? MAYBE. Three in one week??? NFW!!! But we can disagree, it’s cool.

And I don’t think everyone hates Diana at all. Just a very vocal minority.

[blackguy69]

Hold on everyone we’re getting way off topic.

[johnjeb]

Fifth Dimension's version was released on ABC Records [[I think it was a new label for them) and appeared on the Billboard chart the same week, April 3, 1976, as Diana Ross' version. I had [[or maybe still have) the single. It is very good but not as satisfying as DR's version. I never heard it on the radio, at the time.

I recall reading that 5D's producer spoke to DR's producer about LH to see if Motown would be releasing her version as a single. He was told probably not, seeing that her new single was just released. So 5D recorded LH. I imagine Motown quickly learned about this and made their move. When DR's version was released by Motown, 5D were annoyed saying they would not have gone to the expense of recording their version if they had known Motown had plans to release DR's. They obviously knew who would win that chart battle!

At this point ITITALT was only on the Billboard charts for 3 weeks. It stalled in the third week because LH was released.

I think Motown missed the ball by waiting too long to release ITITALT, once Theme from Mahogany started moving down from the Top 10. It could have been released in early February, as opposed to mid-March. I recall they released the single at the same time as her new album. Had they released the single first and waited, even a month, to release the album maybe ITITALT would have charted at least Top Ten. In addition, to any observers, LH would have definitely looked like DR's next single and there might not have been any attempt to "steal" her song.

I definitely believe Diana Ross could have been very assertive about wanting LH released - NOW! She was probably interested in having a fun uptempo song on the charts, and in her concerts, rather than another ballad, regardless of how lovely the song.

[jobeterob]

Diana had the hits and the career right through to 4 Billboard charts this week

So she's worth writing about in your books and talking about on tv - otherwise no one listens or buys

42 years after one song hit #1 - people write and talk about such an event!!!!

[Boogiedown]

Fifth Dimension's version was released on ABC Records [[I think it was a new label for them) and appeared on the Billboard chart the same week, April 3, 1976, as Diana Ross' version. I had [[or maybe still have) the single. It is very good but not as satisfying as DR's version. I never heard it on the radio, at the time.

I recall reading that 5D's producer spoke to DR's producer about LH to see if Motown would be releasing her version as a single. He was told probably not, seeing that her new single was just released. Do you recall where you read this?? So 5D recorded LH. I imagine Motown quickly learned about this and made their move. When DR's version was released by Motown, 5D were annoyed saying they would not have gone to the expense of recording their version if they had known Motown had plans to release DR's. They obviously knew who would win that chart battle!

At this point ITITALT was only on the Billboard charts for 3 weeks. It stalled in the third week because LH was released.

I think Motown missed the ball by waiting too long to release ITITALT, once Theme from Mahogany started moving down from the Top 10. It could have been released in early February, as opposed to mid-March. I recall they released the single at the same time as her new album. Had they released the single first and waited, even a month, to release the album maybe ITITALT would have charted at least Top Ten. In addition, to any observers, LH would have definitely looked like DR's next single and there might not have been any attempt to "steal" her song.

I definitely believe Diana Ross could have been very assertive about wanting LH released - NOW! She was probably interested in having a fun uptempo song on the charts, and in her concerts, rather than another ballad, regardless of how lovely the song.

This is a good account johnjeb. One thing though, Diana's LP was released in February [[February 10th).

I believe you are correct about the two producers talking to each other , which then lead to this whole fiasco . Hal Davis, who produced Diana's version, and Marc Gordon were close friends from having worked as collaborators with each other for years at Motown in the 1960s. Marc Gordon was now the Fifth Dimension's manager as well as Fifth Dimension member Florence La Rue's husband, so he had doubly heavy stakes in the success of the group. Their first LP [[ Jimmy Webb produced:p) on ABC had bombed and then Billy Davis Jr. and Marilyn McCoo left the group so they were desperately trying to regroup and get a foothold.

Likely Lamonte McLemore did hear LOVE HANGOVER , liked it , commented on it, and Marc Gordon knowing Hal Davis so well, called him about it. Perhaps Motown had given Hal Davis negative feedback about LOVE HANGOVER and so he was of the opinion it would not be a single. They certainly hadn't picked it right out of the box. In this way, Hal Davis may have given the Fifth Dimension the green light to make a run of it with LOVE HANGOVER. Marc Gordon produced this himself which he hadn't been doing for the Fifth Dimension for years.

Trouble is , Diana's album came out in February and the disco DJ's immediately latched on to the seven minute plus version of LOVE HANGOVER found there. It was an instant club smash and at that point Motown couldn't ignore it if they wanted to catch its wave.

[PeaceNHarmony]

Diana had the hits and the career right through to 4 Billboard charts this week

So she's worth writing about in your books and talking about on tv - otherwise no one listens or buys

42 years after one song hit #1 - people write and talk about such an event!!!!
So true. Yet, how else could we have learned that Mary Wilson's drug dealer gave her more blow so she'd stop singing to him? Or something like that. This thread strayed a tad & had lotso' adds by posters I block so ...

[midnightman]

Boogietown's post seems more accurate to WHAT REALLY HAPPENED.

I forgot Motown had such a low opinion of Love Hangover lol [[also Diana thought disco music was great but not something she thought would last; think she said something to the effect she didn't wanna be part of a fad; same with Marvin)

So it seems what really happened with LH was due to Marc Gordon and Hal Davis having this back and forth over which version was gonna be a hit and since Davis claimed to Marc Motown didn't like LH that much, Marc thought he had won.

But then the discos were like "no, we like the DR version!" So I guess the rest is history. Can't deny a hit when you hear it.

So it's neither Diana's nor Berry's fault. The DJs were why LH blew up.

As it should, it's a landmark recording in the history of disco music.

[RanRan79]

Mary was fairly lawsuit happy at the time and I believe she did sing Reflections to her coke pusher for more powder or she would have sued or threatened to. So what? No one writes dirt on themselves - including Diana. She didn’t tell about still seeing Eddie Kendricks after he was married. I give Ross credit for one thing, she didn’t use her book to diss others. Might have been a better read if she had! LOL

I wouldn't trust Tony Turner to tell me what time of day it is, let alone believe a story about an original Supreme singing songs for dope. But Mary didn't sue him, so my question to Marv is does that mean he believes the stories Tony told about Mary? And maybe someone with legal expertise can shed some light here, but aren't these kinds of suits extremely hard to prove? It basically comes down to one person's word against another. Seems pretty common in the entertainment business to let gossipy anecdotes ride as it's not worth the legal fees to fight.

[RanRan79]

Hey - I’m not pro-ross but I love her. I love Gladys. I do not believe that those three interviewers just happened to bring that topic up when the previous 500 did not. One? Sure. Two??? MAYBE. Three in one week??? NFW!!! But we can disagree, it’s cool.

And I don’t think everyone hates Diana at all. Just a very vocal minority.

But that's the thing: it only takes one. That's one of the points I was trying to make. If an interviewer brings up something juicy that captures the public's attention, others will follow suit because they know what will get the views, likes and shares. Now you're saying it's three interviews, but I only saw the one with Sway. What were the others?

[RanRan79]

Diana had the hits and the career right through to 4 Billboard charts this week

So she's worth writing about in your books and talking about on tv - otherwise no one listens or buys

Yeah, if you're Mary Wilson or Martha Reeves. Not if you're Gladys Knight. Gladys is one of the most respected vocalists of all time. And a successful one at that. Her classic hits are spun just as much today as Diana Ross'. She does not need to use anyone's name to garner attention. I saw the woman on The Chew one day. She didn't mention Diana Ross' name once and I don't think anyone in the audience or any of the cooks present were even thinking about Diana. I've only heard Gladys talk about Diana in one interview and I've read her account in her book. Even if there are a handful of other occasions where Gladys has spoken about this incident, when you think about the tons of interviews a legend of Gladys' caliber has done over the last 20 years, I think it's safe to say Gladys doesn't need Ross to make people pay attention to her. I know that Martha Reeves seems to get asked a ton about Diana Ross but as legendary as Martha is, it should come as no surprise that interviewers [[and the public) might be a bit more interested in Diva Drama than they are in Martha remembering her last significant chart hit in 1967 or Martha's tales of traveling back and forth to England over the last 30 years where she seems to be more appreciated than here at home. Sucks, but I get it. Gladys? Come on now. Y'all killing me!:eek:

[reese]

But that's the thing: it only takes one. That's one of the points I was trying to make. If an interviewer brings up something juicy that captures the public's attention, others will follow suit because they know what will get the views, likes and shares. Now you're saying it's three interviews, but I only saw the one with Sway. What were the others?

I recall seeing one on THE INSIDER and one on a show called ENTERTAINMENT 360, I believe. On THE INSIDER, Gladys came off the same as she did with Sway: just telling the story as it happened but ending with how they discussed it at the Legends Ball and that they had to grow up. On the other show, she seemed somewhat angry and didn't come across as warm.

I remember being rather disappointed. THE INSIDER aired right when she was releasing a new single [[JUST A LITTLE). Yet her new release received little mention because they devoted most of the piece to the Diana story. The other appearance came when Gladys was promoting her last album, WHERE MY HEART BELONGS, but the story didn't dominate the appearance.

[midnightman]

Keep the thread on topic, guys.

[johnjeb]

Boogiedown, I do not recall where I read the info about the two producers discussing LH. It probably was around the time the singles were released or within a few years. I'm pretty sure it was an interview with Hal Davis. I probably have it with memorabilia in the attic. Back then I looked at lots of magazines such as Billboard, Goldmine, Soul, R&B World, Jet and anything that featured Motown and its' artists and music.

Thanks for the correction on the album release date. I had the Expanded Edition out to check something else for my post and should have referenced the booklet for that info, as well.

[RanRan79]

I remember being rather disappointed. THE INSIDER aired right when she was releasing a new single [[JUST A LITTLE). Yet her new release received little mention because they devoted most of the piece to the Diana story. The other appearance came when Gladys was promoting her last album, WHERE MY HEART BELONGS, but the story didn't dominate the appearance.

Thanks for your recollection about the other interviews Reese. The above paragraph also illustrates the issue I have with the idea that Gladys Knight would think to use a 1960s issue with Diana Ross for publicity. You have a new release to promote and when the promotion airs, it's all about a 50 year old incident? Gladys has been in the game long enough to know better. If you want people to talk about your music in order to sale a song or an album, you don't suggest to the interviewer to talk about things not connected to the promotion. Gladys is not a newbie nor is she desperate.

[Boogiedown]

Thanks once again
Dylan for transcribing!:cool:




Here's what Lamonte McLemore wrote in his book:
"From Hobo Flats to the 5th Dimension: A Life Fulfilled in Baseball, Photography and Music by LaMonte McLemore as told to Robert Allan-Arno"
[[Copyright © 2014 LaMonte McLemore and Robert Allan-Arno)

----
Like with Earthbound, there are some stories floating around our next song choice, but I'll state here that it was my idea for The 5th Dimension to record Love Hangover" from Diana Ross's album Diana. My heart raced as I said aloud to myself, "Finally, here's that really good dance record I've been dreaming of!" As soon as I heard it on Diana's latest project, I zoomed it over to our manager, Marc, and he agreed it would put us back on the map...

Meanwhile, Miss Ross had released another song [["I Thought It Took A Little Time") as a single from her album. Diana was appearing in London, and my good friend Gil Askey, her conductor- a true gentlemen who we recently lost- called me from overseas and related with shy if not sly amusement, "Hey, man, that song 'Love Hangover' that ya'll did..."
"Yeah, Gil, The 5th Dimension is thrilled with this one," I interrupted.
Gil went on, "Well, Diane called me while catching it on the radio and said, "Good, I told Berry we should release that song as a single... uh damn, now wait a minute, that's not my f-ckin' song!" Even the biggest Urban DJ in the country, Frankie Crocker out of New York's WBLS, had our single of "Hangover" going way up the chart until Diana allegedly told Berry, "Screw my current single! Stop that and put 'Love Hangover' out now! And whatever it takes, squash the 5th Dimension's record!"

So all of a sudden, our single-- one we had just performed on Dick Clark's American Bandstand-- wasn't played. Later, when Florence and I went to see Diane performing her acclaimed one-woman show on Broadway, An Evening With Diana Ross, she spied us in the front row, stopped dead in her tracks, and had the spotlight placed as if we were in a police lineup. As she pointed to a frozen Florence and me from center stage, she snarled with a smile, "Now there's the enemy!" She was trying to be funny... but the lady meant buisness.
----

"From Hobo Flats to the 5th Dimension: A Life Fulfilled in Baseball, Photography and Music by LaMonte McLemore as told to Robert Allan-Arno"

[[Copyright © 2014 LaMonte McLemore and Robert Allan-Arno)



I brought this back up because what struck me most in LaMonte's retelling is his utter disregard that there was something unseemly about ripping off someone else's song . Even if it somehow seemed right at the time , once knowing that Diana wasn't happy about it one bit , you'd think that reflecting now all these years later Lamonte might concede , "ya , that was kind of stanky of us . No matter how much I loved the song at the time , and would have loved to have had a hit with it, it was rightfully an achievement of yours Miss Ross, and I apologize ."

But I don't read anything like that in LaMonte's recounting. He refers to it repeatedly as "our single" and seems to think by getting it released first it had rightfully become their song, and seems annoyed that Diana dared to jump in to claim it as hers.

As far as appearing at Diana's show not too long after, how did he expect to be received? If I were Diana , I'd have taken it a step further and while bright in that spotlight, had them escorted out , saying with that 'snarly smile', "I don't want to risk losing any more of my material. I'm sure you understand" .
lol! :p:p

[gman]

I'm 50/50 on this one....I think the 5th re-recorded Love Hangover for Ian Levine's
project....

[midnightman]

The Fifth Dimension got their own legacy. It seems kinda rude of LaMonte to try to claim Love Hangover LOL

It would've been like the Miracles trying to claim I Heard It Through the Grapevine since they recorded it first haha

[gman]

I'm 50/50 on this one....I think the 5th re-recorded Love Hangover for Ian Levine's
project....

I went into my S&M [[Soul & Motown) CD binder and they did rerecord this for Ian Levine. It is on Motor City Dance Party Vol.5. this was a 1990 5 CD set issued here in the states by Quality...the 5 discs were sold separately.
The notes state Florence LaRue sings the hook that was missing in DR's version.
This 5 CD collection was a good set to get....many of the sets 75 songs are in extended 12" length. This set introduced me to many of the early and lesser known Motown folks.

[milven]

Found a disco 45 long version of Hangover by the 5th on You Tube. Poster said this about the song..

How did this version come about? Well, Diana and Motown were not enthusiastic about disco, thinking it was a passing fad. The focus was to turn her into the black Barbra Streisand and this song did not fit into the plans. She had to be coaxed into recording it with vodka and ended up doing a damn good job! The song was added to her 1976 LP "Diana Ross" probably to give it more texture and show off her versatility. In any case, it was not considered for single release. Then the members of the Fifth Dimension who had recently lost Marilyn McCoo and Billy Davis Jr picked up on the buzz coming from the clubs got over Diana's album track. They went into the studio and recorded their version with the idea that they would fill the need for a single. Florence LaRue handled the lead vocals here. When Motown got wind of that news, they rush released Diana's song and both versions debuted the same week. Everyone knows that Diana reached #1 and the Fifth Dimension, well, it peaked at #80. They never recovered and never had another pop hit. The only way to get the disco version is on the promotional 7" single, and that took me some doing to get my paws on a clean copy on vinyl to digitize. So give it a listen. Back in da day, clubs played both versions to change it up.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e5pl8Q9i_yU

[gman]

I have to say....I never really cared for the fast part of the song. The beginning of DR version I like....it's sultry. I find the disco galloping part very monotonous.

[RanRan79]

I have to say....I never really cared for the fast part of the song. The beginning of DR version I like....it's sultry. I find the disco galloping part very monotonous.

Only in recent years have I started digging the uptempo half of the song. But I've always much preferred the slower part. I can see the appeal of the song as is, but I think she could have had a huge hit with just the slow part extended. She sounds so sexy.

[BayouMotownMan]

Actually part of this story is true.

When Motown issued Diana Ross in 1976, Gordy ordered a remix of I Thought It Took A Little Time as the next single. Since Michael Masser had such a big hit with Mahogany, Gordy usually stuck with a winning producer.

However, the discos quickly jumped on Love Hangover. It became apparent that he chose the wrong single. Then it was discovered that the 5th quickly recorded a copycat. Gordy was too competitive to allow this. Love Hangover was quickly edited and rushed out.

Just as it happened in 1964, Motown issued Baby Love and was holding Come See About Me to follow afterward. But Nella Dodds did a version and it was issued. Gordy rushed out Come See and wound up with two more No. 1 hits. He had the same plan for I Thought and Love Hangover. But interest in the ballad quickly waned and radio simply preferred Hangover.

Diana Ross gave an interview where she chastized the 5th for trying to steal her song. This interview actually got pressed and some copies are out there. I used to have it on a tape.

As Gordy has always done with Diana's competitors, he would sign them to Motown and destroy their careers. Did it to Barbara McNair, Lesley Uggams and Diahann Carroll. The 5th were hungry so they took the Motown contract and Gordy sank them once and for all.

The incident with McLemore and LaRue, I believe it.

[TheMotownManiac]

Barbara McNair, Diahann Carroll and Leslie Uggams were never competition for Diana Ross. Not even an iota. Gordy never sank their careers - how absurd is that? They were not pop stars or record sellers before they came to Motown, and weren’t record sellers AT Motown, and they weren’t AFTER Motown and their careers continued as before they they signed. Carroll got an Oscar nod - and played top clubs with Vic Damone for a decade after Motown - that’s hardly a killed career. None of them were pop stars and were never going to be pop stars. The 5th Dimension wasn’t “competition” to Diana any more than any other act with the low ethic threshold to steal another acts’ song and arrangement. It happens, sure....but you never see quality acts pulling a stunt like that. Nella Dodds? Yes. Streisand, Aretha, Gladys, Donna, Natalie and others all had opportunities to pull this crap and never tried. The 5th’s last records on Bell tanked, they then signed with ABC and went nowhere. Two years after Love Hangover they signed with Motown, released 2 albums that also tanked - the trend began way before Motown and continued after. Gordy destroyed no one’s careers because any act with half a brain who was feeling that way would split like so many acts did. Gladys, J5, Spinners Tops Tempts and others all left for what they hoped were greener pastures. Maybe it works, maybe not, but the career decisions are ultimately decided by the act. If they get bad advice, no one holds a gun to their head to follow it.

[gman]

Perhaps signing Barbara, Diahann, and Leslie was an attempt broaden the labels roster beyond the teen/ young record buying market?...it had been done before. Each of these ladies had a dedicated fan following and were successful live engagement performers, but on a much narrower scale than DR.

[TheMotownManiac]

That’s exactly what I think. He was signing Soupy Sales, Sammy Davis jr, Paul Peterson, Billy Eckstein and countless others hoping to strike a little gold.

While I certainly think he was Diana first in all things, This fable that he was out to destroy careers, to me, is way off base. He insisted Gladys record IIWYW and it wasn’t to kill her career. It wound up being a top ten smash. He was working with Martha in the studio, who he believed in talent-wise, when she was ok to work again. She had barely sold an album in 4 years but there he was in the studio with her, and spending hours mixing what he hoped would hit. Over mixing, yes - but the effort was there. He was hardly trying to kill their careers.

[RanRan79]

While I certainly think he was Diana first in all things, This fable that he was out to destroy careers, to me, is way off base. He insisted Gladys record IIWYW and it wasn’t to kill her career. It wound up being a top ten smash. He was working with Martha in the studio, who he believed in talent-wise, when she was ok to work again. She had barely sold an album in 4 years but there he was in the studio with her, and spending hours mixing what he hoped would hit. Over mixing, yes - but the effort was there. He was hardly trying to kill their careers.

This. The myth of the career killer Gordy just doesn't make any sense. Do I think Gordy has never done some underhanded shit with an artist, of course not. I still suspect that he was one of the many factors that killed Flo Ballard's initial start. Not because he thought she was a threat to the Supremes/Diana Ross or any of that nonsense. But that thing between them was nasty and what I know about people is that they hit their enemies when and where they can. Folks like to talk about something being business not personal, but business turns personal ALL THE TIME. But Gordy had no connection to the ladies Bayou mentions, no real history. Why sign them to kill their careers because they were Ross competition when for every one of those women in question, there were ten others who were "competition", even more so if the other women actually did the same kind of music Diana did. Gordy didn't seem to be on the hunt for every female singer. Again, I'm not buying it.

[BayouMotownMan]

This. The myth of the career killer Gordy just doesn't make any sense. Do I think Gordy has never done some underhanded shit with an artist, of course not. I still suspect that he was one of the many factors that killed Flo Ballard's initial start. Not because he thought she was a threat to the Supremes/Diana Ross or any of that nonsense. But that thing between them was nasty and what I know about people is that they hit their enemies when and where they can. Folks like to talk about something being business not personal, but business turns personal ALL THE TIME. But Gordy had no connection to the ladies Bayou mentions, no real history. Why sign them to kill their careers because they were Ross competition when for every one of those women in question, there were ten others who were "competition", even more so if the other women actually did the same kind of music Diana did. Gordy didn't seem to be on the hunt for every female singer. Again, I'm not buying it.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but I spoke with people on Gordy's payroll who distinctly remember Gordy's divide and conquer approach to business. Remember Gordy was a competitive prize fighter and even a pimp at one time. You don't amass the wealth and success he had enjoyed without a streak of ruthlessness. Diahann Carroll was especially vocal about the failure of her lone Motown lp. And why sign a washed up group like the Fifth Dimension if not to punish? He lost interest in Vandellas, Marvelettes and his flagship female group of Supremes when their sales dropped. Barbara Mitchell of High Inergy told me herself that for years she never understood why Gordy kept her in a recording studio for 7 years when her group only had one hit record and no interest in future product. She was told that Gordy liked a catalogue on his artists if ever they found later success on another label, he could release competitive albums off their new success. He did that to the Tops, Spinners, Pips and even Ross

[Albator]

If Berry Gordy was that competitive he would have tried to kill Donna Summer's career and not some cabaret singers.

[BayouMotownMan]

Donna Summer has her own Berry Gordy, but he did capitalize by giving Diana similar material as Donna Summer [[Love Hangover, Lovin, Livin' Givin)

[RanRan79]

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but I spoke with people on Gordy's payroll who distinctly remember Gordy's divide and conquer approach to business. Remember Gordy was a competitive prize fighter and even a pimp at one time. You don't amass the wealth and success he had enjoyed without a streak of ruthlessness. Diahann Carroll was especially vocal about the failure of her lone Motown lp. And why sign a washed up group like the Fifth Dimension if not to punish? He lost interest in Vandellas, Marvelettes and his flagship female group of Supremes when their sales dropped. Barbara Mitchell of High Inergy told me herself that for years she never understood why Gordy kept her in a recording studio for 7 years when her group only had one hit record and no interest in future product. She was told that Gordy liked a catalogue on his artists if ever they found later success on another label, he could release competitive albums off their new success. He did that to the Tops, Spinners, Pips and even Ross

Didn't High Inergy have a string of albums and singles? I'm going to assume that Gordy kept her in the studio because he hoped to capitalize on her talent. The group already had one hit. If you want to kill their career, why promote the single in the first place? I get that your thoughts on this subject are a result of your interviews, but what they told you just doesn't add up. Who believed Diahann Carroll or Leslie Uggams could compete with the Queen of Motown? I don't believe Gordy ever thought that, nor Ross, nor anybody else on the planet with ears, except for a delusional moment either Ms. Carroll or Ms. Uggams may have had.

[midnightman]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pZ2AjROAnv0

[BayouMotownMan]

Didn't High Inergy have a string of albums and singles? I'm going to assume that Gordy kept her in the studio because he hoped to capitalize on her talent. The group already had one hit. If you want to kill their career, why promote the single in the first place? I get that your thoughts on this subject are a result of your interviews, but what they told you just doesn't add up. Who believed Diahann Carroll or Leslie Uggams could compete with the Queen of Motown? I don't believe Gordy ever thought that, nor Ross, nor anybody else on the planet with ears, except for a delusional moment either Ms. Carroll or Ms. Uggams may have had.

McNair, Carroll and Uggams competed with Ross for club dates, tv appearances, and Gordy had his eye on a movie career for Ross, so they competed there as well. McNair was in Elvis' last movie in 1969, Uggams had her own TV show around that same time and Carroll was a huge success in Julia in the late 60s...all platforms Gordy was eyeing for Ross. Look at the record. McNair had two lps and several singles that failed. When this happens it's harder to get bookings. Carroll had finished Julia when her lp came out on Motown. It tanked. I don't think she ever got another record deal; if she did it was some obscure label. Uggams hit big with Roots when her lp came out. Her lp bombed. This has an adverse affect on a performer.

In the case of High Inergy, Gordy's interest in them was two fold. First of all, he was not interested in another female group as they were headaches to deal with, and his most successful acts at this time were self contained artists. But, Ross was bucking him and refusing material he had intended for her, one of which was Don't Leave Me This Way, the other You Can't Turn Me Off. Vernessa Mitchell remembered she learned that song and Let Me Get Close To You from their first lp by listening to Ross's vocal on those two tracks, both of which Ross didn't like. Secondly, Mary Wilson was giving Gordy headaches with lawsuits and bad press as she desparately tried to get him to support her groupings of Supremes. When he released High Inergy's debut lp and single he promoted them as the New Supremes. This was his way of letting Wilson know her Supremes were gone. She and hubby Pedro Ferrar immediately filed their first lawsuit against Motown and in that suit they objected to High Inergy being billed as the new Supremes. When Ross bombed with The Wiz, she let Gordy relaunch her solo career and was more cooperative, at least for a while. He signed Mary to a solo contract and promptly dropped her after her debut lp failed. So High Inergy had severed their purpose so he was was finished with them.

[daviddh]

i like Dianas version of LH. it's a classic. great vocal.
I do like the 5th D but , I think their version is ok.
I also remember when Diana released her lp the FORCE BEHIND THE POWER, Motown released her song Waiting In The Wings, but it rarely got played and then I was hearing some other female artist version getting played instead of Dianas.

[TomatoTom123]

Kinda relevant... anyone ever listened to Diahann Carroll’s Motown album? Or Leslie Uggams’ LP? What are they like?Any good? Just after opinions. :)

[midnightman]

The alternate version from DR s*it on all them other h-words lmao OKAAAAAAY?! :p

[BayouMotownMan]

Kinda relevant... anyone ever listened to Diahann Carroll’s Motown album? Or Leslie Uggams’ LP? What are they like?Any good? Just after opinions. :)

Carroll's was pretty bad, Uggams maybe a little better. Both were out of touch with the disco trend. McNair's two lps were also rather bland, her voice just didn't fit the Motown sound. These ladies were lounge singers. Uggams had the strongest voice IMHO. Some years ago Universal released a 2 cd set on McNair, her two released albums, an album with Smokey that was never issued plus other vault recordings. Listen to her version of I Know Better. The two Gladys's who recorded this great Whitfield track just sing circles around her.

[midnightman]

Barbara McNair's voice leaves me dry. Can't believe Berry wanted to replace Diana in the Supremes with her [[I think it was Barbara, correct me if I'm wrong).

[Boogiedown]

Only in recent years have I started digging the uptempo half of the song. But I've always much preferred the slower part. I can see the appeal of the song as is, but I think she could have had a huge hit with just the slow part extended. She sounds so sexy.

To be able to appreciate LOVE HANGOVER to its fullest , you would have had to have experienced it via the intended environment it was designed for , a disco dance floor in 1976.

[Boogiedown]

But, Ross was bucking him and refusing material he had intended for her, one of which was Don't Leave Me This Way,

I have never heard of this . Can you provide your source?:)

added: [[ I see wiki makes this claim but they don't provide a source . Just have never heard this before. [[ and I've been around a long time!:rolleyes::p))

[midnightman]

I have never heard of this . Can you provide your source?:)

added: [[ I see wiki makes this claim but they don't provide a source . Just have never heard this before. [[ and I've been around a long time!:rolleyes::p))

And Wikipedia is notorious for having folks just add things on without sources. :p

[luke]

Thelma was supposed to get Do you know where you’re going to, right? She still sings it in her shows

[Boogiedown]

The only way to get the disco version is on the promotional 7" single, and that took me some doing to get my paws on a clean copy on vinyl to digitize. So give it a listen. Back in da day, clubs played both versions to change it up.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e5pl8Q9i_yU

Yes but this was a HUGE mistake by The Fifth Dimension, to correctly create a longer "disco" version , but then only press it on a 7" single . This just when DJs were abandoning 45 playing altogether, preferring the new 12" format for many reasons , sound improvement particularly .
Motown already had a long disco version to use , it was on Diana's album where some DJs had discovered it. I'm amazed Motown pressed it onto a 12" single and promo'd it to the clubs . One of the few disco things they did right . I guess they wanted to make sure even the djs not willing to buy a copy of the album were playing it.

[Boogiedown]

As Gordy has always done with Diana's competitors, he would sign them to Motown and destroy their careers. Did it to Barbara McNair, Lesley Uggams and Diahann Carroll. The 5th were hungry so they took the Motown contract and Gordy sank them once and for all.



Here's what I've concluded.
As I mentioned in my first post in this thread, Marc Gordon and Hal Davis were working partners from way back , very good friends. When The Fifth Dimension were in big trouble career-wise Hal Davis gave Marc Gordon the green light to run with LOVE HANGOVER [[ see original post for more detail) . The same generosity was not felt by Diana Ross who was not consulted in this song-sharing plan.

Marc Gordon was very upset by the final outcome as he sank a lot of time and money into creating LOVE HANGOVER as a way of selling the reformatted group to a weary ABC. LH embarrassingly tanked and no further recordings resulted with ABC.

I'm sure Hal Davis felt terrible about this. And as time passed and it became apparent that The Fifth Dimension were not recovering , I believe Hal Davis went to bat for his old friend with Berry Gordy, probably explaining the entirety of the situation. [[Hal was a hot property, hot off the heels of DON'T LEAVE ME THIS WAY).

In this case, Berry turns out to be a very nice guy. Otherwise it is very odd to me that Motown would want anything to do with this faded group that had so blatantly stolen from them.

How do I know the closeness between Hal Davis and Marc Gordon persevered through this entire fiasco? Because once signed to Motown, Hal Davis contributed to both of the albums The Fifth Dimension recorded there.

Their first Motown single ,an Ashford and Simpson cover, was produced by Hal Davis:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kcZCkxBWTCU

[midnightman]

Thelma was supposed to get Do you know where you’re going to, right? She still sings it in her shows

Yeah that was her song initially.

But I honestly don't know if I can hear the studio version in her voice. Great singer though.

[Jaap]

Thelma Houston's version was released as single in New Zealand in 1973.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_n9KfgjjbU

[TheMotownManiac]

[QUOTE=BayouMotownMan;439463]McNair, Carroll and Uggams competed with Ross for club dates, tv appearances, and Gordy had his eye on a movie career for Ross, so they competed there as well. McNair was in Elvis' last movie in 1969, Uggams had her own TV show around that same time and Carroll was a huge success in Julia in the late 60s...all platforms Gordy was eyeing for Ross. Look at the record. McNair had two lps and several singles that failed. When this happens it's harder to get bookings. Carroll had finished Julia when her lp came out on Motown. It tanked. I don't think she ever got another record deal; if she did it was some obscure label. Uggams hit big with Roots when her lp came out. Her lp bombed. This has an adverse affect on a performer.

Your dates are are all wrong.

Ross wasn’t doing club dates after 1972 when Uggams and Carroll were signed - they couldn’t afford her. She only played Caesar’s Palace at reported the highest salary they only paid to Ross and Sinatra.

Uggams album came out and tanked on Motown two years before Roots. All of her records, on 4 labels, before and after Motown, tanked. I saw her in Blues In The Night and she was superb, but she was never, ever a threat to Ross. Her 1969 TV show was a bomb and yanked before the mid season break. It was replaced by Glen Campbell which became a top 20 hit that year. Additionally, if Gordy saw her as a threat, I doubt that he’d allow The Tempts and Stevie, two of his top acts to appear on her show singing their current huge hits.

Elvis’ final film, Change Of Habit was a giant bomb - peaking at #17 on Variety for a measly 4 weeks on the chart. A bomb by any standard. McNair was a supporting player in a cheapie flick and was light years away from what Gordy had in mind for Ross. Mc Nair had success in Canada with a 70s variety show for a few years that was syndicated in some US markets. Even that couldn’t get her a hit record or album.

Carroll was a very talent chanteuse, not a pop star and wasn’t trying to be one. She had several albums on several labels that never did a thing- Her 1974 Motown stinker was no exception. By that time, Ross was light years from wanting a tv show and even with Julia, [[her self proclaimed ‘white negro) it hit big initially but lost its audience quickly and was cancelled shortly into its third season and ended prematurely in March with virtually no syndication value.

All three of of these women were talented, but posed zero ‘threat’ to Ross....ever. The fact that they had no recording career before and after Motown, I believe, proves this. There was nothing at all to gain by signing and causing additional failure in their recording careers. Ditto the fifth dimension. Personally, with so many of his acts gone and in trouble, I think it made sense to try to work with the 5th. He only had 4 acts in 1977 that were selling [[Ross, Marvin, STevie, Commodores) you can’t run a label with only 4 acts. 4.5 if you count Smokey.

[sansradio]

Thelma Houston's version was released as single in New Zealand in 1973.

Thanks for posting. It also plays briefly in Norman, Is That You? starring Redd Foxx and Pearl Bailey [1976].

[captainjames]

This thread is kinda strange for me.....What I am hearing is how dare she release her record as a single.....

[luckyluckyme]

Barbara McNair's voice leaves me dry. Can't believe Berry wanted to replace Diana in the Supremes with her [[I think it was Barbara, correct me if I'm wrong).

Berry Gordy was considering Barbara Randolph for a position in the Supremes, not Barbara McNair.

[midnightman]

Berry Gordy was considering Barbara Randolph for a position in the Supremes, not Barbara McNair.

I know I was getting the Barbaras mixed up. Thanks!

[luckyluckyme]

[Quote] But, Ross was bucking him and refusing material he had intended for her, one of which was Don't Leave Me This Way, [Quote]
[Quote] I have never heard of this . Can you provide your source?:)[Quote]

In the Diana Ross [[M6-=861S1) Expanded Edition Booklet, George Solomon and Andrew Skurow write
"[[Hal) Davis cut the track [['Don't Leave Me This Way') for Ross- the session tapes have her name across the tape box and session sheet- but it appears she never records vocals. He considers the tune for Motown's newest female signing, Teena Marie, but instead produces it on Thelma Houston, and his choice gives Thelma her only big hit and a Grammy@ award."

[luckyluckyme]

In the "Any Way You Want It" Expanded Edition booklet Thelma Houston recounts the circuitous route by which the song came to be a hit. Suzanne DePasse asks Thelma to consider recording the track if she likes it. After recording it, Thelma takes an acetate to Catch One, an L.A. gay club to test response to it. The club owner, Jewell tells her she has a hit on her hands.
Thelma & Tony Jones [[at Suzanne's insistence) take several tracks to Berry Gordy's Bel Air mansion, saving this song, which they see as the best, for last. Berry Gordy does not see it as having hit potential. Thelma is disappointed, but Suzanne shops the track to newly formed record pools where it wins huge acceptance. In spite of his initial reluctance, Berry Gordy releases it and the rest is history.

[jobeterob]

Oh my Berry was sabotaging Diane’s career way back as early as this

[PeaceNHarmony]

Oh my Berry was sabotaging Diane’s career way back as early as this
Yes! Gordy was sabotaging Ross' career in his down time when he was not sabotaging the career of every other singer on earth in order to promote Ross. Makes sense to me!

[milven]

I love sarcasm and I get my daily dosage every morning by reading SDF :D

[PeaceNHarmony]

I love sarcasm and I get my daily dosage every morning by reading SDF :D
What is this ... 'sarcasm' ... of which you speak? :o

[milven]

:D
It is cheaper than the alternative, right? :D

13962