No Vandellas solos at all?

[luke]

Ive always wondered if there has ever been even a few words sung solo by any of the Vandellas, other than Martha. Have three been? Many members of Motown groups got at least some solo opportunitites but apparently not the Vandellas. I wonder why.

[gman]

I know Lois cut a few solo tracks for Ian Levine's Motorcity project.
But I believe your question concerns the groups time while on Gordy.

[Quinn]

Ive always wondered if there has ever been even a few words sung solo by any of the Vandellas, other than Martha. Have three been? Many members of Motown groups got at least some solo opportunitites but apparently not the Vandellas. I wonder why.Yes,I believe it was only once and in the very early days. At one point there were four Vandellas.Gloria Jean Williamson,who left before they could hit the big time sang lead on a 45."You'll Never Cherish a Love So True[[till you lose it)" b/w "There He Is [[at my door). It was released under the name The Vells. This is the only time I know of that Martha Reeves didn't sing lead on their records.

[marv2]

Seems like I remember Roz doing something.

[marv2]

Martha said something to the effect that they were not a group or it was her group.

[bradsupremes]

Martha said something to the effect that they were not a group or it was her group.

I never understood Martha's view of this. Even today, Martha has some strange perspective that she's essentially the only one that mattered because it wasn't really about the group. I feel Martha always wanted to be a solo artist, but never had the confidence so she relied on a group.

As much flak people give Diana for being selfish and wanting to hog the spotlight, she still viewed herself as a member of a group. We heard solos or brief vocal spots from Mary & Cindy even up to Diana's departure. In the Farewell show, Mary had two solos!

Does anyone think Martha would have shared the spotlight to allow Roz, Betty or Lois have a chance to sing lead? It goes back to where Martha viewed herself and the Vandellas. To Martha, the Vandellas were background vocalists. There was no reason as to why they should sing lead. I heard stories that even today Martha refuses to won't allow her sisters to sign anything unless she signs it first, etc.

[Philles/Motown Gary]

I never got the impression that Martha was selfish nor was she trying to hog the spotlight in any way at all. She revealed in her book, "Dancing In The Street: Confessions Of A Motown Diva", that, unlike the other Motown group members who were under contract to Motown itself, the Vandellas were under contract to her. It was surprising, for sure, but there was nothing negative implied regarding any of The Vandellas. In fact, Martha spoke highly of each and every Vandella member until internal troubles within the group flared up, which usually happened within all groups from time to time -- not just Motown. I may be wrong, but in the 50+ years that I've been loving Martha & The Vandellas and Motown, I've never perceived Martha as being anything more than one of Motown's finest singers who had the courage to stand up to Berry when she felt that injustice had been done regarding royalties or the like.

[Jimi LaLumia]

Gordy didn't like groups; don't forget he wanted Levi's name out in front of the Four Tops as well, but Levi said no; Gordy liked show biz type figures [[Doris Day! Jackie Wilson! ) but in the 60's, groups were 'in', solo stars were not, so he masked his stars in groups, Smokey and the Miracles, Gladys & the Pips, Michael & The Jacksons,Martha & the Vandellas, Diana and the Supremes, until those solo stars could be liberated from 'group' bondage [[which Martha was happy to do when she signed with MCA), which is why all the endless nonsense about Ross is so ridiculous but seems to serve as a hobby for some

[luke]

I believe Roz and Annette have both refuted that and have said they most certainly were signed to Motown. Martha seems all over the place per the Vandellas. She seemed to go through a stage when she would seemingly minimize their contribution ...” if the world knew how many people were actually Vandellas...”, then later very specifically mentioning them all by name. You’d think to help the ladies feel positive they’d at least get some stage patter, a few solo lines a la the Pips, the Supremes, the Marvelettes...Just curious.

[blackguy69]

The only vandella I ever heard sing was Sandra. She did sing lead on one of the versions of we got a honey love. But she was with the velvettes when she did it.

Her version:
https://youtu.be/3ajCPpLp8og

[marv2]

Martha Reeves demanded that all of the Vandellas be inducted into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. I remember the ceremony when all of them thanked her. By the way, Martha began her career as a solo artist singing in Detroit nightclubs under the name "Martha Lavelle".

[reese]

I never understood Martha's view of this. Even today, Martha has some strange perspective that she's essentially the only one that mattered because it wasn't really about the group. I feel Martha always wanted to be a solo artist, but never had the confidence so she relied on a group.

As much flak people give Diana for being selfish and wanting to hog the spotlight, she still viewed herself as a member of a group. We heard solos or brief vocal spots from Mary & Cindy even up to Diana's departure. In the Farewell show, Mary had two solos!

Does anyone think Martha would have shared the spotlight to allow Roz, Betty or Lois have a chance to sing lead? It goes back to where Martha viewed herself and the Vandellas. To Martha, the Vandellas were background vocalists. There was no reason as to why they should sing lead. I heard stories that even today Martha refuses to won't allow her sisters to sign anything unless she signs it first, etc.

From what I've read in various books, interviews, and liner notes, the Del-Phis [[the group with Gloria, Rosalind, Annette, and Martha) had broken up and Martha was working as a solo under the name, Martha Lavalle. This was when Mickey Stevenson saw her and gave her a card to come to Motown. Instead of getting an audition, she became the A&R secretary.

The girls only got back together when background singers were needed for Marvin Gaye and Martha called in her old group mates to do it. Somewhere in this same period, to satisfy union rules, Martha stepped in for Mary Wells on I'LL HAVE TO LET HIM GO and impressed Berry. After that, Berry offered them a contract to which Martha was very enthusiastic, but she wrote that the other girls said they would consider it. Even though they had recorded two sides with Gloria as lead, she quit at that point, and the remaining three signed. Berry put Martha's name in the group in case one of the other girls quit.

I suppose Martha would have been just as happy to be a solo artist if Motown would have given her an audition and a contract instead of the A&R secretary position. I do recall an interview where she said having the Vandellas was more of a need of hers in needing companionship on the road as opposed to needing serious background singers.

[bradsupremes]

I don’t believe the Vandellas became contractual to Martha until Lois stepped in which is why it confuses me how Martha could have such control to have Betty and later Roz fired. Wouldn’t that be something Motown/Gordy be in control of? Diana didn’t have the power to tell Motown she wanted Florence fired, but rather took a group meeting/decision with Gordy.

Martha certainly goes hot and cold in regards to her relationship with the Vandellas. Today I think things are rather cold between Martha and Roz & Annette especially due to Roz & Annette touring as the Original Vandellas.

[floyjoy678]

I think regarding Martha having the power to fire Betty and Roz, my opinion is that it all came down to the fact that the public probably didn't know who either of them were. The Supremes were a bigger act and Florence was known so there was probably a lot more careful consideration to showing Flo the door.

The Vandellas took a brief break beginning in 1969 and when Martha was ready to regroup I believe she had someone at Motown inform Roz that she was no longer needed in the group. Betty's firing was a bit more direct from Martha and was an impulse decision.

[luckyluckyme]

Doesn't Betty Kelly get a few short moments in the spotlight, called out & playfully chastised by Martha [[You call that sangin?) during the closing medley of the 20 Grand Performance released on Gordy 925?

[thommg]

I think regarding Martha having the power to fire Betty and Roz, my opinion is that it all came down to the fact that the public probably didn't know who either of them were. The Supremes were a bigger act and Florence was known so there was probably a lot more careful consideration to showing Flo the door.


The difference between Marta & The Vandellas and the Supremes is that all three Supremes had their names on album covers, the posters with Greatest Hits, and even mentioned in a hit song. I don't recall the Vandellas listed on any album covers, just Martha.

[luke]

That’s kind of the point

[luke]

I agree brad with a lot of what you said but Diana certainly wanted Flo out and the meeting was pretty much a formality.

[luckyluckyme]

The difference between Marta & The Vandellas and the Supremes is that all three Supremes had their names on album covers, the posters with Greatest Hits, and even mentioned in a hit song. I don't recall the Vandellas listed on any album covers, just Martha.

The back cover of the Heatwave album acknowledges soprano, Rosalyn Ashford & alto Annette Beard; Dance Party's back cover identifies Martha, Rosaly & Betty Kelly as the girls who make up the explosive Martha & the Vandellas; Martha, Lois & Sandra are each pictured individually & named on the back cover of Sugar n' Spice; On Black Magic, Martha, Lois, & Sandra are identified by name & zodiac sign.

[blackguy69]

The back cover of the Heatwave album acknowledges soprano, Rosalyn Ashford & alto Annette Beard; Dance Party's back cover identifies Martha, Rosaly & Betty Kelly as the girls who make up the explosive Martha & the Vandellas; Martha, Lois & Sandra are each pictured individually & named on the back cover of Sugar n' Spice; On Black Magic, Martha, Lois, & Sandra are identified by name & zodiac sign.
I think he meant the supremes were promoted as individuals where the vandellas weren’t. The marvelettes were named on the back of the sophisticated soul album but was pretty unknown

[mysterysinger]

Then there was Saundra Mallett...


https://motownjunkies.co.uk/2010/08/24/208/

[marv2]

Then there was Saundra Mallett...


https://motownjunkies.co.uk/2010/08/24/208/

Thanks Mysterysinger

[reese]

Then there was Saundra Mallett...


https://motownjunkies.co.uk/2010/08/24/208/

Martha wasn't on this recording and in an interview with IN THE BASEMENT, sounded a bit miffed that Rosalind and Annette did it without her.

[blueskies]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGsd2hAvGc8

The Del-Phi's

[PeaceNHarmony]

Interesting that ... one Motown lead singer ... gets crucified 50+ years later for not yielding solos to other members but another lead singer is viewed as blameless. Same with lead singer's name coming before the group name. Always adjudicated as being a ... 'different' .... situation. But the concept of logic never seems to apply here, does it?

[marv2]

Interesting that ... one Motown lead singer ... gets crucified 50+ years later for not yielding solos to other members but another lead singer is viewed as blameless. Same with lead singer's name coming before the group name. Always adjudicated as being a ... 'different' .... situation. But the concept of logic never seems to apply here, does it?

Martha Reeves was not sleeping with the boss Berry Gordy to get their records released over others.

[jobeterob]

The Supremes, because Diana Ross had an instantly recognizable voice and became a major star, attract attention to minute detail that no other Motown group did.

[marv2]

The Supremes, because Diana Ross had an instantly recognizable voice and became a major star, attract attention to minute detail that no other Motown group did.

She was sleeping with the boss and in the lingo of Millennials, she was "thuggin' for tracks" even way back then. That benefited the Supremes and they have admitted it over the years.

[danman869]

The Vandellas did have stage patter at The Copa in '68. There were a few [[clearly rehearsed) stage lines tossed back and forth to lead into "Honey Chile" between Martha, Roz, and Lois. I'd bet there was more, too, if we could ever hear the entire performance. Plus, as someone noted, there's the "teasing" of Betty [["you call that sangin'?!) on the "M&TV Live!" album. Especially at a venue like The Copa, Motown groups [[male or female) were probably expected to have an act that contained a bit of stage patter and whatnot. If it worked for The Supremes...

[thommg]

Interesting that ... one Motown lead singer ... gets crucified 50+ years later for not yielding solos to other members but another lead singer is viewed as blameless. Same with lead singer's name coming before the group name. Always adjudicated as being a ... 'different' .... situation. But the concept of logic never seems to apply here, does it?

It was always Martha & The Vandellas, but it wasn't always Diana Ross and the Supremes. And I don't think most of the fans crucify Diana for not giving anyone else lead time. Most of just enjoyed the times when a lead went to Flo or Mary.

[Philles/Motown Gary]

The only vandella I ever heard sing was Sandra. She did sing lead on one of the versions of we got a honey love. But she was with the velvettes when she did it.

Her version:
https://youtu.be/3ajCPpLp8og

Hearing Sandra's lead-vocal voice was a first for me, too, blackguy69. I actually like it a lot! Her phrasing on certain lyrics throughout were amazingly professional. If I were hearing "[[We've Got) Honey Love" being sung for the first time ever, I would love Sandy's version, but in my head and my heart, that song will always belong to Martha. Thanks for sharing Sandy's version. If you should come across any more Motown tracks by her, please bring 'em on!

[Jimi LaLumia]

Chris Clark was sleepin with the boss, and that worked out well for this world famous superstar didn't it? lol..and the endless line of other superstars who were sleeping with the boss.. Berry Gordy called the shots at Motown, period, and Gordy wanted Florence outta The Supremes due to her endless attacks on him and his decisions regarding the group... Happy New Year!! lol

[Circa 1824]

Drummers never play the guitar. Violinists never play the saxophone. Backup gals should never sing lead. The world loves the lead star or they would not be the “lead star.” Almost no one gave two hoots about the revolving gals who stood six feet behind the star.

[blackguy69]

Hold up folks before world war 100 breaks out. This isn’t about Diana or any of the supremes so don’t add them to this conversation.

[PeaceNHarmony]

Chris Clark was sleepin with the boss, and that worked out well for this world famous superstar didn't it? lol..and the endless line of other superstars who were sleeping with the boss.. Berry Gordy called the shots at Motown, period, and Gordy wanted Florence outta The Supremes due to her endless attacks on him and his decisions regarding the group... Happy New Year!! lol
Right? ... some slept with the boss; some slept with everybody else ... so be it! Another way to look at it: those who hate/d Barack Obama had to resort to lies about him being from Kenya beacuse they could not find real faults with him; likewise those who hate Chris Clark, Martha Reeves, etc have to resort to lies about them. All of a kind.

[marv2]

Chris Clark was sleepin with the boss, and that worked out well for this world famous superstar didn't it? lol..and the endless line of other superstars who were sleeping with the boss.. Berry Gordy called the shots at Motown, period, and Gordy wanted Florence outta The Supremes due to her endless attacks on him and his decisions regarding the group... Happy New Year!! lol

Diane must have threw in the "extras". Berry tried to date Flo once....she said no! Happy New Year!

[blackguy69]

Marv you fell right into the trap lol. People this thread isn’t about Diana. Things have been civil here. Don’t mess it up

[jobeterob]

Drummers never play the guitar. Violinists never play the saxophone. Backup gals should never sing lead. The world loves the lead star or they would not be the “lead star.” Almost no one gave two hoots about the revolving gals who stood six feet behind the star.

Very true ......

[smallworld]

Backup gals should never sing lead. The world loves the lead star or they would not be the “lead star.”

Wasn't Dionne Warwick a back up gal before Burt Bacharach picked her out to demo tracks for him?

Wasn't Whitney Houston a back up gal for her mother before being given some featured spots etc.?

I'd much rather listen to a Lisa Fischer set than a Mick Jagger one. I don't begrudge the latter his success but I don't think the former not becoming a name makes her "lesser" than the headliner.

[Philles/Motown Gary]

Almost no one gave two hoots about the revolving gals who stood six feet behind the star.
Circa1824, I wouldn't go quite that far. I agree that many back-up singers aren't qualified to sing lead, but the back-up singers were equally important to me as the lead vocalist. Back in the 60s, I grew up with Philles and Motown. Those groups were like family to me. Whenever there was a personnel change with a group, I sensed an immediate loss [[temporary, of course, but, nonetheless, a loss). I think a lot of Motown fans here would agree with that.

[blackguy69]

Wasn't Dionne Warwick a back up gal before Burt Bacharach picked her out to demo tracks for him?

Wasn't Whitney Houston a back up gal for her mother before being given some featured spots etc.?

I'd much rather listen to a Lisa Fischer set than a Mick Jagger one. I don't begrudge the latter his success but I don't think the former not becoming a name makes her "lesser" than the headliner.katy Perry, Gwen Stefani, Mariah Carey, Mary J.blige were all back up gals before going big. Luther and Elton were backup guys

[Jimi LaLumia]

the 'extras"..LOL..love it, Marv... Happy New Year!

[Jimi LaLumia]

a lot of people can be back up singers..not everyone has the show biz bug to be an attention holding front person.. I love Miss Warwick for example but she was never exactly an electrifying performer..vocalist, absolutely..on stage dazzle? not so much..

[luke]

Very true PMG. Call and response singing is an integral part of many R and b records and is one factor why they are so powerful! As is stated in 20 feet from stardom those singers are so integral to the music.

[PeaceNHarmony]

The sleeping with thing is over-rated anyway. Did anyone buy a record because s/he slept with, say, Tom Jones?

[blueskies]

Then there are groups where all the singers are lead singers....
i.e. The Pointer Sisters....and did it damn well.

[thanxal]

The sleeping with thing is over-rated anyway. Did anyone buy a record because s/he slept with, say, Tom Jones?
PNH - I only buy records based on who they slept with. It adds to the musical ambiance. Happy 2018. Looks a lot like 2017, 2016, 2015, 2014, you get my drift.

[marv2]

PNH - I only buy records based on who they slept with. It adds to the musical ambiance. Happy 2018. Looks a lot like 2017, 2016, 2015, 2014, you get my drift.

You buy records based on the ability to hear and buy them. Sleeping with the boss can get them recorded, released and promoted........

[PeaceNHarmony]

PNH - I only buy records based on who they slept with. It adds to the musical ambiance. Happy 2018. Looks a lot like 2017, 2016, 2015, 2014, you get my drift.
LOVE it! Wait till I spill the beans; we'll all go broke! :o

[thanxal]

You buy records based on the ability to hear and buy them. Sleeping with the boss can get them recorded, released and promoted........
Is that the only way, Marv?

[marv2]

Is that the only way, Marv?

No, but that was the way Diana Ross did it. She said she became Berry Gordy's secretary, but she couldn't type. She said that she had to "make him remember that they were there.....". She said........ LOL!

[thanxal]

No, but that was the way Diana Ross did it. She said she became Berry Gordy's secretary, but she couldn't type. She said that she had to "make him remember that they were there.....". She said........ LOL!
Lol! Stay obsessed Marv. It makes you you.

[thanxal]

LOVE it! Wait till I spill the beans; we'll all go broke! :o
Now that, I'll wait to read!!!!

[marv2]

Lol! Stay obsessed Marv. It make you you.

and you stay blessed. Happy New Year.

[thanxal]

and you stay blessed. Happy New Year.
You too Marv. I wish you a wonderful 2018.

[luke]

Speaking of 2018, how about a resolution to not go after each other personally? Good for you Marv...what did Michelle O say..you go high...

[thanxal]

Speaking of 2018, how about a resolution to not go after each other personally? Good for you Marv...what did Michelle O say..you go high...
Who was going after someone? I thought we were having a pleasant conversation.

[blackguy69]

Who was going after someone? I thought we were having a pleasant conversation.l think he means in general.

[thanxal]

l think he means in general.
ok. Thanks.

[RanRan79]

I never believed Martha's claims that she employed all of the Vandellas. It defies logic in my mind that Annette, Roz and Betty weren't signed to Motown. If that were the case, why did Annette, Roz and Betty sue Motown for royalties instead of Martha, if she were in fact their employer, not Motown? By the time Annette left the group, Martha and the Vandellas were one of the top acts at the label. I find it hard to believe that she left without Motown being involved in her exit and in her replacement, Betty. Knowing how serious Gordy was about his money makers at the time, as well as his obvious belief that the female groups he signed to his label were incapable of making executive decisions [[unlike the way he allowed his male groups to make decisions for themselves), he would have sanctioned every move, including dismissing the Vandellas altogether if he thought Martha could make it on her own. I'm sure that Martha wanting to be rid of Betty also was a company decision, as the group was still a hit making entity at the time. By the time Roz exited, its not a stretch for me to think that Lois and Sandy may very well have been employed by Martha rather than Motown.

[RanRan79]

You buy records based on the ability to hear and buy them. Sleeping with the boss can get them recorded, released and promoted........

Marv you have a point. A relationship with the boss- be it sexual or family or friend- can certainly aid in advancement in one way or another. But as already been pointed out, it doesn't work to everyone's advantage. Also in the case of Diana Ross, the myth that she slept with Gordy in order for the Supremes to reach the big time, just doesn't make sense. For one, by the time Diana and Gordy admit that they began a sexual relationship, and also in line with the timeline of people like Mary Wilson and Florence Ballard who recalled when it began, the Supremes were already the hottest American musical entity of the 60s. Weren't they five number one hits in already? I would have to go back and research but I think they began seeing each other somewhere around the first Copa appearance, no? It was definitely 1965 though. By that point Diana Ross, with the Supremes, had been recorded, released and promoted since 1961. Diana may have had a magical coochie, but I doubt it was powerful enough for Gordy to turn at least five songs into number one records just from the mere thought that he might get a piece of that action. The Supremes had numerous hit records because only an idiot would have failed to realize the goldmine that was the Supremes.

[sup_fan]

to get back on topic - i am a bit surprised that the Vandellas didn't, on occasion, have a trade off line or something in a song. Similar to how the Marvelettes did the chorus of Too Many Fish In the Sea. I too have read though that Martha really did view the girls as 1) basic, competent vocal backup and 2) companionship while on the road

Was Motown and Berry thinking MRATV where done when Martha had her breakdown in 68 or 69? with that, her other personal problems and then the baby, was wondering if motown figured she was out of the picture. but then she came back. seems like Nat Res and Black Magic were really more just sentimental efforts of motown reluctantly releasing things.

[blackguy69]

I never believed Martha's claims that she employed all of the Vandellas. It defies logic in my mind that Annette, Roz and Betty weren't signed to Motown. If that were the case, why did Annette, Roz and Betty sue Motown for royalties instead of Martha, if she were in fact their employer, not Motown? By the time Annette left the group, Martha and the Vandellas were one of the top acts at the label. I find it hard to believe that she left without Motown being involved in her exit and in her replacement, Betty. Knowing how serious Gordy was about his money makers at the time, as well as his obvious belief that the female groups he signed to his label were incapable of making executive decisions [[unlike the way he allowed his male groups to make decisions for themselves), he would have sanctioned every move, including dismissing the Vandellas altogether if he thought Martha could make it on her own. I'm sure that Martha wanting to be rid of Betty also was a company decision, as the group was still a hit making entity at the time. By the time Roz exited, its not a stretch for me to think that Lois and Sandy may very well have been employed by Martha rather than Motown.

I’m more inclined to believe only Lois was employed by Martha since Sandra was already at Motown by the time she came on board. Plus I though Motown had to have a contract if they were to ever record. If Lois and Sandra never recorded then I would assume Martha just employed them. But who knows

[RanRan79]

I'm assuming that it's Annette that sings the "oh, oh, oh" parts by herself on "Tears On My Pillow". And while she wasn't acting as a Vandella during the session, Roz's studio Marvelette appearance on "Silly Boy", she can be heard doing one of the "lover's lane" lines.

[mwmr]

I'm assuming that it's Annette that sings the "oh, oh, oh" parts by herself on "Tears On My Pillow". And while she wasn't acting as a Vandella during the session, Roz's studio Marvelette appearance on "Silly Boy", she can be heard doing one of the "lover's lane" lines.

I think it was simply the line up of that particular group
a lead singer and 2 back up singers
every group has a different line up/make up
there’sno law saying all members of a group have to have a solo

[RanRan79]

I think it was simply the line up of that particular group
a lead singer and 2 back up singers
every group has a different line up/make up
there’sno law saying all members of a group have to have a solo

No such law exists. However, at Motown most of the top groups shared lead [[Supremes, Tempts, Tops, Miracles, Marvelettes...even the Velvelettes), if only on occasion, and that makes the issue of no Vandellas leads a good topic of conversation.

[Boogiedown]

It was always Martha & The Vandellas, but it wasn't always Diana Ross and the Supremes. And I don't think most of the fans crucify Diana for not giving anyone else lead time. Most of just enjoyed the times when a lead went to Flo or Mary.

I like this point . Unlike Martha and The Vs' , at first it was a group of girls equally called The Supremes. That's a different dynamic.
Also even after Diana went "solo" she always had back up singers supporting her in concert [[and on recordings) then and ever since . They just weren't any longer called "The Supremes". Any one pay any particular attention to these gals names over the years? :rolleyes::confused:

[temptationsfan500]

That's what I love about The Temptations. No man was larger or more important than the group.

[Jimi LaLumia]

someone should have told David Ruffin that info; I recall that he wanted the group re named David Ruffin & The Temptations

[RanRan79]

I wonder what would have happened if the guys had decided they didn't want Otis in the group any more?

[blackguy69]

someone should have told David Ruffin that info; I recall that he wanted the group re named David Ruffin & The Temptations
And you saw how that played out.

[marv2]

I wonder what would have happened if the guys had decided they didn't want Otis in the group any more?

They would have got their ass beat. Otis hits the hardest. LOL!

[Jimi LaLumia]

the difference is that if Gordy wanted Ruffin's name out there, on records and marquees, it would have been..Ruffin, wanting it because of what had recently happened with Ross,was just not in a position to make that happen.. it was Gordy's company..

[marv2]

the difference is that if Gordy wanted Ruffin's name out there, on records and marquees, it would have been..Ruffin, wanting it because of what had recently happened with Ross,was just not in a position to make that happen.. it was Gordy's company..

He did not change the Marvelettes or the Jackson Five's names either.

[bradsupremes]

Didn’t Gordy want to put Levi Stubbs’s name out front of the Four Tops and Stubbs refused?

[marv2]

Didn’t Gordy want to put Levi Stubbs’s name out front of the Four Tops and Stubbs refused?

No, what he wanted to do was to pull Levi out of the group to portray the role of Louis McKay in the film "The Lady Sings the Blues". That would have meant the Four Tops would have to give up nearly a year of engagements. Levi declined the part and Billy Dee Williams was selected.

[Fullfillingnessfirstfinale]

Well I am thankful for that threat, to read all the different opinions. In my opinion it´s very clear: Martha and The Vandellas, is a group to have Martha Reeves in the spotlight, The Vandellas were only the backround singers and a part of them are The Andantes, they mixed and changed. For me the Marvelettes and The Supremes were group acts, and later Diana Ross was promoted by Gordy as a solo artist. Personally in my opinion Martha Reeves and The Vandellas have there most lies in the vocals, that is only a Martha Reeves projekt !

[midnightman]

Yes,I believe it was only once and in the very early days. At one point there were four Vandellas.Gloria Jean Williamson,who left before they could hit the big time sang lead on a 45."You'll Never Cherish a Love So True[[till you lose it)" b/w "There He Is [[at my door). It was released under the name The Vells. This is the only time I know of that Martha Reeves didn't sing lead on their records.

Well Gloria was the original lead singer when they were The Vells before she left and Martha took her place and then it became Martha & The Vandellas... there are two recordings of There He Is, one with Gloria and one that Martha re-recorded a couple years later.

When the group started in 1957, it was Gloria, Roz and Annette. Martha didn't join them until 1960 and before then she was trying to become a soloist. When the group started doing background vocals for Marvin, Gloria was with 'em. Once they signed with Motown's Gordy imprint, Gloria left and it became Martha, Roz and Annette until 1964 when Betty Kelly replaced Annette.

[midnightman]

Drummers never play the guitar. Violinists never play the saxophone. Backup gals should never sing lead. The world loves the lead star or they would not be the “lead star.” Almost no one gave two hoots about the revolving gals who stood six feet behind the star.

The group only "revolved" because there was chaos behind the scenes, Circa. The "classic" Vandellas lineups were Annette and Roz [[and Betty after Annette left). Least to us Motown fans, they are. But to casual listeners, they only name Martha because her name was in front. But we're not gonna sit here and diminish the other Vandellas' roles. We're not doing that today in 2018.

[midnightman]

I wonder what would have happened if the guys had decided they didn't want Otis in the group any more?

Otis was the de-facto leader so even if they wanted to, they couldn't. And THEY KNEW THAT. Eddie knew and Paul knew. David was the only one who TRIED it and Berry had to tell them "no bruh, it's Otis and Melvin's group."

[midnightman]

Didn’t Gordy want to put Levi Stubbs’s name out front of the Four Tops and Stubbs refused?

He did and Levi didn't want it. And he also wanted Levi to be a soloist, he refused too. He was like "I've been in this group for 12, 13 years, these are my homeboys, nah man."

Of ALL the Motown groups, the Four Tops remained loyal to each other.

[midnightman]

I never believed Martha's claims that she employed all of the Vandellas. It defies logic in my mind that Annette, Roz and Betty weren't signed to Motown. If that were the case, why did Annette, Roz and Betty sue Motown for royalties instead of Martha, if she were in fact their employer, not Motown? By the time Annette left the group, Martha and the Vandellas were one of the top acts at the label. I find it hard to believe that she left without Motown being involved in her exit and in her replacement, Betty. Knowing how serious Gordy was about his money makers at the time, as well as his obvious belief that the female groups he signed to his label were incapable of making executive decisions [[unlike the way he allowed his male groups to make decisions for themselves), he would have sanctioned every move, including dismissing the Vandellas altogether if he thought Martha could make it on her own. I'm sure that Martha wanting to be rid of Betty also was a company decision, as the group was still a hit making entity at the time. By the time Roz exited, its not a stretch for me to think that Lois and Sandy may very well have been employed by Martha rather than Motown.

When did Martha have her breakdown? 1968, right?

I think the group known as Martha and the Vandellas was OVER by then [[and this was after the group added Martha's last name to the full moniker). While they continued to perform when Martha came back from her breakdown, they were just a group in name only. MOST of MR&TV's post-breakdown recordings featured just Martha and probably the Andantes or Syreeta Wright or Ashford & Simpson or whoever until 1972 when the contract finally ran out.

In fact, some of the releases were OLDER recordings that Martha sung by herself [[I Gotta Let You Go being one of them; No One There, the LAST release from MR&TV's sounded way older too).

But the GROUP was over by 1968. IMHO. Like the Marvelettes were technically over that same year and by that point, only Wanda was singing on the tracks [[post-1968 after Anne Bogan).

Ask why the Marvelettes didn't have any of its singers' name in front of the group, because each one of them could sing lead on a track [[though mainly it was Gladys and Wanda). Plus Wanda was too beset by drug abuse and alcoholism to focus on her career [[much like Martha was after 1966).

[RanRan79]

Otis was the de-facto leader so even if they wanted to, they couldn't. And THEY KNEW THAT. Eddie knew and Paul knew. David was the only one who TRIED it and Berry had to tell them "no bruh, it's Otis and Melvin's group."

I get that, but lets be real: had Eddie and Paul and David gotten together and said they wanted Otis gone, other than taking it to the street, what recourse did Otis have? Sure he was the de-facto leader, but what did that really mean exactly? The Tempts were comprised of two factions, Eddie and Paul vs Otis and Melvin. Where the name Temptations are concerned, all of them were together for the start of this thing, except for David who came later. How is it that Otis held more weight than Eddie and Paul? Did Berry really care that much about what Otis [[or Melvin) thought? I don't think so. I think Otis would've found himself out on his ass. I think the only reasons David didn't get what he wanted [[his name out front) is for two reasons:

1) Gordy and company viewed Eddie as a lead singer who would not/ could not be relegated to background singer position.

2) David had a self destructive personality. Had David had a "succeed at all costs" mindset like Diana Ross, and if Eddie wasn't respected for his lead singing capabilities, I think Gordy would have been more than happy to turn the Tempts into the David Ruffin show.

[RanRan79]

Ask why the Marvelettes didn't have any of its singers' name in front of the group, because each one of them could sing lead on a track [[though mainly it was Gladys and Wanda). Plus Wanda was too beset by drug abuse and alcoholism to focus on her career [[much like Martha was after 1966).

The Marvelettes didn't go that way because the two lead singer situation was prior to 1967. By the time Gordy started changing everybody's names, Gladys was gone. As you point out, Wanda had drug and alcohol problems, but also by the time of 1967-68, the Marvelettes had slipped so far down the Motown totem pole that some folks probably forgot they were there at all, thus Motown really didn't give a shit about singling anyone out. Names ending in "ettes" seems so dated at that point, that I have to wonder if a shot of life could've been given to the group by renaming it something else at this point? New name, new start, especially for Wanda?

[TheMotownManiac]

I agree brad with a lot of what you said but Diana certainly wanted Flo out and the meeting was pretty much a formality.
Mary and Berry wanted Flo out as well. Flo found that out the hard way at the meeting. As any employer would say, there’s just so much you can take from an employee. Their non-comfority not only causes harm to the group, but undermines the authority of the entire organization. No one hated Flo. No one WANTED her gone. They wanted the behavior to go, and the only way was to lose the behavior. Mary told me Flo was hostile to Berry and things were hot and cold with Diana. If it’s true that Flo was taking prescription diet pills, they can definitely change and exaggerate moods. It may have contributed to Flo’s inability to cope in an acceptable manner. After the meeting, Flo wasn’t speaking to Diana or Mary or Berry and that certainly wasn’t going to go on too long.

Not or being privy to the whole inside story, it’s easy to say what ‘should have been done.’ Personally, I’d have given Flo a few months off, used Marlene Barrow or rented Cindy to see if maybe Flo could get it together. Removing a popular group member, I’m sure, was not Taken lightly. But Gordy seems to me like quite a little Hitler, drunk with power, and once his ego was challenged, there could be only one result. Plus, Diana looks to me like she was just hanging by a thread emotionally as well. The tension had to be relieved as the group might stand losing Flo, but not Diana.

[RanRan79]

Mary and Berry wanted Flo out as well. Flo found that out the hard way at the meeting. As any employer would say, there’s just so much you can take from an employee. Their non-comfority not only causes harm to the group, but undermines the authority of the entire organization. No one hated Flo. No one WANTED her gone. They wanted the behavior to go, and the only way was to lose the behavior. Mary told me Flo was hostile to Berry and things were hot and cold with Diana. If it’s true that Flo was taking prescription diet pills, they can definitely change and exaggerate moods. It may have contributed to Flo’s inability to cope in an acceptable manner. After the meeting, Flo wasn’t speaking to Diana or Mary or Berry and that certainly wasn’t going to go on too long.

Not or being privy to the whole inside story, it’s easy to say what ‘should have been done.’ Personally, I’d have given Flo a few months off, used Marlene Barrow or rented Cindy to see if maybe Flo could get it together. Removing a popular group member, I’m sure, was not Taken lightly. But Gordy seems to me like quite a little Hitler, drunk with power, and once his ego was challenged, there could be only one result. Plus, Diana looks to me like she was just hanging by a thread emotionally as well. The tension had to be relieved as the group might stand losing Flo, but not Diana.

I agree with just about all of that. As I said in another thread some months ago, if any one of us in Soulful Detroit were to ever walk into our jobs participating in Flo's shenanigans, we'd be out on our asses. And most of us would agree that it would be unacceptable behavior. Why does Flo get a pass? I'm the biggest Flo fan there is [[as far as I'm concerned) and in every way that matters I give her the full credit she deserves. But she aint Jesus. She aint perfect. She was a flawed human being, as were everyone else in this cast of characters. Florence made her own bed and then had to lie in it. The most unfortunate thing is that she died so young and after a years long period of bad decisions and bad luck, so we never get to see her emerge from the consequences of her youthful antics like most of the rest of us got the chance to do.

But calling Flo on her shit doesn't mean that Gordy, Ross and Wilson's shoes were clean either. It's just that Gordy held all the power, Ross had some power, and Flo and Mary had none. Mary kept her job because she towed the line and sided with the powerful against the weak.

[midnightman]

The Marvelettes didn't go that way because the two lead singer situation was prior to 1967. By the time Gordy started changing everybody's names, Gladys was gone. As you point out, Wanda had drug and alcohol problems, but also by the time of 1967-68, the Marvelettes had slipped so far down the Motown totem pole that some folks probably forgot they were there at all, thus Motown really didn't give a shit about singling anyone out. Names ending in "ettes" seems so dated at that point, that I have to wonder if a shot of life could've been given to the group by renaming it something else at this point? New name, new start, especially for Wanda?

Yeah, Motown 1967 onwards was different from the Motown BEFORE 1967.

[midnightman]

I get that, but lets be real: had Eddie and Paul and David gotten together and said they wanted Otis gone, other than taking it to the street, what recourse did Otis have? Sure he was the de-facto leader, but what did that really mean exactly? The Tempts were comprised of two factions, Eddie and Paul vs Otis and Melvin. Where the name Temptations are concerned, all of them were together for the start of this thing, except for David who came later. How is it that Otis held more weight than Eddie and Paul? Did Berry really care that much about what Otis [[or Melvin) thought? I don't think so. I think Otis would've found himself out on his ass. I think the only reasons David didn't get what he wanted [[his name out front) is for two reasons:

1) Gordy and company viewed Eddie as a lead singer who would not/ could not be relegated to background singer position.

2) David had a self destructive personality. Had David had a "succeed at all costs" mindset like Diana Ross, and if Eddie wasn't respected for his lead singing capabilities, I think Gordy would have been more than happy to turn the Tempts into the David Ruffin show.

Well at that time, I'm sure Eddie could've argued that if he wanted Otis to go, he could've. But Eddie was quite loyal to the group until it got too much for him. So it's a what-if situation with that. If that makes sense.

[midnightman]

Jesus, it's like any other Motown story involving another Motown legend, the Supremes got to be interjected into it!!!

God forbid if I make a Marvin Gaye topic, discussing his years of being bipolar, and suddenly what happened backstage at a Supremes concert in nineteen sixty-John Brown-six is brought up lol

[RanRan79]

Jesus, it's like any other Motown story involving another Motown legend, the Supremes got to be interjected into it!!!

God forbid if I make a Marvin Gaye topic, discussing his years of being bipolar, and suddenly what happened backstage at a Supremes concert in nineteen sixty-John Brown-six is brought up lol

For my part, I was just following the posts and responding to what has already been written. I'll leave the topic of the Supremes out of any future posts in this thread and keep the focus on the Vandellas. But I also have to agree with you; someone always brings them up and half the time I'm left wondering what was the point? In some cases I think it's someone hoping to derail the conversation. Ya know, that weird psychotic thing that goes on around here sometimes.

[midnightman]

^ Right. The conversation was about MARTHA AND THE VANDELLAS.

I mean, I wonder is it hard for some folks to keep the Supremes' name out of their mouths and try to be like "#TeamDiana" or "#TeamMary". That's some f*ck sh*t lol

[captainjames]

There are no Vandella solos.... Martha was the s^&*[[ period !!!!
also didn't Tony Turner say he slept with Berry Gordy ?....nobody recorded him.
peace

[luke]

Is this Vandella Lois? https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=yUM3mk2zY_c

[midnightman]

No such law exists. However, at Motown most of the top groups shared lead [[Supremes, Tempts, Tops, Miracles, Marvelettes...even the Velvelettes), if only on occasion, and that makes the issue of no Vandellas leads a good topic of conversation.

That's quite unique though. Like every other group in Motown AT LEAST, the other member[[s) had a lead or shared lead, either on a single or on an album track.

Yet in NEITHER of the NINE [[I think?) studio albums [[not counting the "Live" album that had Betty Kelly, I think, doing Respect), Annette, Roz, Betty, Lois and/or Sandra never had a lead vocal and in "I Can't Dance [[To That Music You're Playing)", they brought in Syreeta Wright to sing the chorus!

Also, DIDN'T Martha sue Motown first for royalties before the other Vandellas [[Annette, Betty and Roz; save for Lois who worked with Martha mainly) did? I could've sworn she had sued them after the Motown 25 special [[where she was only given a minute long performance alongside Mary Wells?).

[midnightman]

There are no Vandella solos.... Martha was the s^&*[[ period !!!!
also didn't Tony Turner say he slept with Berry Gordy ?....nobody recorded him.
peace

Tony's a messy queen. I wouldn't trust a word he says or writes. He also implicated both Marvin and Eddie K were gay lol :rolleyes: But enough about that boy lmao

[TheMotownManiac]

There are some who feel that Solos were somehow owed, deserved, fair or given out like special treats. This is a business and Solos were only invested in if those involved expected a profit from it. There are many fine bg voices that would never make a dime as Solos - like Cindy for example. I believe The Vandellas that I’ve heard fit in that category. Mary, as a pop singer does as well. You gotta have a lot to make a career, but a voice people enjoy is one of them. Sandra’s voice? No, thanks. Mary and Flo had nice voices for a solo spot, but most of the bg voices I hear, don’t.

And I don’t think it matters with the inception of the group was, any group going to Motown was going to do what Motown told them where they were going to be there. Simple as that. They were free to leave if they wanted out.

I think Otis was the final say in the group because technically I believe Paul and Eddie joined his group. I may be wrong about that, but I don’t think so.

[midnightman]

^ Since we're going OT lol, yeah Eddie and Paul JOINED Otis and Melvin's group [[though credit to the naming of the Temptations belong to Otis and Paul).

[RanRan79]

That's quite unique though. Like every other group in Motown AT LEAST, the other member[[s) had a lead or shared lead, either on a single or on an album track.

Yet in NEITHER of the NINE [[I think?) studio albums [[not counting the "Live" album that had Betty Kelly, I think, doing Respect), Annette, Roz, Betty, Lois and/or Sandra never had a lead vocal and in "I Can't Dance [[To That Music You're Playing)", they brought in Syreeta Wright to sing the chorus!

Also, DIDN'T Martha sue Motown first for royalties before the other Vandellas [[Annette, Betty and Roz; save for Lois who worked with Martha mainly) did? I could've sworn she had sued them after the Motown 25 special [[where she was only given a minute long performance alongside Mary Wells?).

Yes I believe Martha sued Motown first. Being unfamiliar with the details, I can only speculate that Martha sued on her own behalf, the Vandellas be damned. Lol Which I guess is why they had to sue on their own a few years later. [[I so badly want to insert a reference to another Motown girl group here, but Midnight I don't want you to get mad at me and kick me out the thread.:p)

[midnightman]

Yes I believe Martha sued Motown first. Being unfamiliar with the details, I can only speculate that Martha sued on her own behalf, the Vandellas be damned. Lol Which I guess is why they had to sue on their own a few years later. [[I so badly want to insert a reference to another Motown girl group here, but Midnight I don't want you to get mad at me and kick me out the thread.:p)

Hahaha you cool but yeah we have to stay on topic though lol

It always attracts the usual suspects. :p

[RanRan79]

There are some who feel that Solos were somehow owed, deserved, fair or given out like special treats.

Actually that's exactly how many leads were handled in the business. Some were owed, some were deserved, some were distributed fairly, and I'm going to assume that in the case of group members whose voices left something to be desired to my ears, leads were apparently handed out as special treats.

It seems like most of the Motown groups were comprised of people who were more than capable of sharing lead vocals, including that group Midnight doesn't want me to mention. [[HA!) And to a lot of people if you can sing lead, you should sing lead, and it seems like Motown had a similar opinion, even when there was a designated sole lead singer.

When it comes to who should and shouldn't sing lead, it really is very much an opinion based issue. Maniac may think none of the Vandellas fit the criteria for good soloists, but someone standing next to him may have the opposite opinion. IMO there have been people throughout the history of recorded music who vocally suck but somehow were able to carve out a career. That's why discussing group lead singers is a worthy topic.

I think in the Vandellas case, none of them recording a studio lead probably had nothing to do with anyone at Motown not feeling any of them were capable of handling such a task, but had everything to do with the way the act was structured: Martha Reeves and her background singers the Vandellas. Martha may join the girls to sing backup in the studio for another act, but Martha wasn't going to sing background to one of her own background singers.

[sup_fan]

I agree that the Vandellas were there to provide vocal backup for Martha. she herself has stated that they were not a "group" like the Supremes or Temptations, with a shared artistic vision of what they wanted to pursue and convey. it's not to say that the Vandellas weren't talented or necessary. It's like in an orchestra - 99% of the time the primary melody is being played by something like the 1st Violins or the flutes or something. rarely is it the violas or the contrabassoon. Sure there are passage, or in some cases songs, where they carry it. But they provide the inner tones and melodies. Essential to the overall

So this is very similar to Mary Wilson's comment about how all three of the Supremes were part of the whole [[yes I'm mentioning the Sups, but only because mary has been quoted in many interviews discussing this). But they were also a group and [[supposedly) partnering together on style, concepts to record, direction, etc. The Vandellas mostly just followed Martha's direction. Frankly from what I've heard, that's how things were with the DRATS and also once Scherrie joined the Sups. mary pretty much ran the group as she wanted in the later 70s

one thing that's curious is how Motown approached the FEMALE backing vocals as being far more expendable than the male. or maybe I'm just not as familiar with the men's recordings. but no one really seemed to care if the backgrounds on Sup, Van or Marvelettes was by group members or not. so long as it was female voices. But did Smokey ever record the Miracles without the three guys? did the Temps do any without their members? perhaps some groups went after a bigger sound and had additional voices on top of theirs. But I find it interesting that Smokey never replaced Pete, Bobby or Roger but never thought twice about replacing Mary and Cindy or Kathryn and Ann/Gladys.

[midnightman]

AFAIK, the Miracles never had any other singer besides themselves in all of their songs with one obvious exception [[Mickey's Monkey, which included MR&TV's in it) and the Temptations only used the Andantes once IIRC [[It's Growing). And no one really knew the Four Tops prior to their Motown arrival so no one pitched a fit over the Andantes being used in their music.

I read somewhere the way MR&TV's came together is after they reformed to sing with Marvin, Berry or Martha felt that Martha had the potential to be the next female star of Motown [[while Mary Wells was still in Motown; and after Martha replaced her on I Have to Let Him Go, Berry decided to sign her) and she insisted her friends Annette, Roz and Gloria join her. I'm guessing the way the contract was set up [[with Martha's name in front), Gloria felt some type of way since she had done leads when they were The Vels and decided to leave the music industry for good while Annette and Roz went along with it.

So maybe that's why they seem unique in Motown groups in that they were only formed to help boost Martha and Martha only.

[kenneth]

@sup_fan, it's an interesting question. But I think it's partially answered by the fact that most pop records of the time have female backing vocals vs. male. And even the male groups like 4 Tops and the Tempts might still have a female backup group along with their own members. So I think in this, as well as in many other endeavors, the females were just viewed as more "expendable" or at least "interchangeable."

[jboy88]

In an effort to bring the thread back on topic, Betty and Roz do have brief solos on “Spellbound” from the L&F anthology of the same name [[which after years of searching was finally able to secure at a decent price)! IMO, their vocals weren’t anything to write home about.

I guess Berry and Co., figured it was less complicated to keep Martha out in front, rather than go through the hassle of putting Betty, Roz, and Annette through excessive vocal training. Not to mention the search for suitable material.

[lockhartgary]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B4opkt3bBfc&index=1&list=RDB4opkt3bBfc

[kenneth]

It's interesting when you think about it, that Martha had her name in front of a group longer than anyone else at Motown that I can think of! I mean, it went from "Martha" to "Martha Reeves" but still, it was longer than Smokey or Diane, by several years, I daresay.

[midnightman]

^ Martha & the Vandellas signed with Motown under that name in 1962.
The Miracles changed their name to Smokey & the Miracles in 1965 [[but the moniker wasn't official until 1966 on singles; they started calling them that on albums starting with Going to a Go-Go).
The most popular group in this forum [[lol) changed their name in 1967.

So yeah, there you have it.

[midnightman]

Also, what's never brought up is in this forum is Martha was also the first front person of a group to sing songs WITHOUT their band mates.

Like none of the Vandellas were on My Baby Loves Me, it was just Martha, the Four Tops and the Andantes, from 1966.

Even with Spellbound, it was much more on in keeping with the background melody than being up front. Also Martha has one of the greatest voices in music history, I think that was another reason why the other girls didn't really "get their shine" so to speak. But maybe they were just comfortable just BEING in the background and never had issues or fights about singing leads on some songs because there was some SORT of understanding?

But I guess we'll never know.

[kenneth]

@midnightman, so many intriguing questions. You know with all the folks on this forum who seem to know some of our Motown family, I wish we could do some interviews with some of these people. I know in the past several years, Darlene Love and other "backup" singers have received more credit, thanks to the recent film and other things. But I wish someone on SDF who has access to Rosalind, Betty, or others would do an interview and post it. I'd do it in a heartbeat if I knew any of them! Would be so interesting to ask for how they prepared, how much time they toured vs. recorded, how Martha [[or Diane!) had so much time to record so many tracks, even if the backing vocals were prerecorded. So many things I'd love to know.

[luke]

I’ve chatted by email with Betty and Roz. You could probably reach them on Facebook. They seem quite friendly and open.

[kenneth]

I’ve chatted by email with Betty and Roz. You could probably reach them on Facebook. They seem quite friendly and open.

Wow, really? Thanks luke.

[midnightman]

@midnightman, so many intriguing questions. You know with all the folks on this forum who seem to know some of our Motown family, I wish we could do some interviews with some of these people. I know in the past several years, Darlene Love and other "backup" singers have received more credit, thanks to the recent film and other things. But I wish someone on SDF who has access to Rosalind, Betty, or others would do an interview and post it. I'd do it in a heartbeat if I knew any of them! Would be so interesting to ask for how they prepared, how much time they toured vs. recorded, how Martha [[or Diane!) had so much time to record so many tracks, even if the backing vocals were prerecorded. So many things I'd love to know.

That would be interesting for the original Vandellas to discuss this more. They could use YouTube as a platform to discuss things. It's been 50 plus years. It would be great for them to reveal what was going on behind the scenes. I know Betty probably can't do it but I hope Annette and Roz does soon. I know they did one interview with Thomas Meros [[I think that's his name) but I hope they talk more about what went on behind the scenes, I'm real interested about that.

I know Martha had talked about issues with Betty in her book [[don't recall her saying she had issues with Annette and Roz but Roz WAS told to leave in '69 so who knows what was up with THAT!).

[TheMotownManiac]

Also, what's never brought up is in this forum is Martha was also the first front person of a group to sing songs WITHOUT their band mates.

Like none of the Vandellas were on My Baby Loves Me, it was just Martha, the Four Tops and the Andantes, from 1966.

Even with Spellbound, it was much more on in keeping with the background melody than being up front. Also Martha has one of the greatest voices in music history, I think that was another reason why the other girls didn't really "get their shine" so to speak. But maybe they were just comfortable just BEING in the background and never had issues or fights about singing leads on some songs because there was some SORT of understanding?

But I guess we'll never know.

actually, Diana was the first front person of a group to sing songs without her band mates. There are songs on CW&P with and without them, Flo &Mary are not on the Stop! Single [[per George and Andy) and the entire Christmas album has no Mary or Flo - in ‘65 so that’s at least a year earlier. To me, it’s of little consequence as I believe producers use the voices - lead, bg whatever - that they think will make the most profit for them and I respect their decisions even if I don’t always agree. I love The Andantes, but would have preferred Mary and Flo on most of Merry Christmas. I like their sound better, but sometimes it needs a boost for effect. They are more youthful and unique sounding. The Vandellas, on the other hand, have a plain, rather mundane sound to me; give me a The A’s anytime over them.

[sup_fan]

actually, Diana was the first front person of a group to sing songs without her band mates. There are songs on CW&P with and without them, Flo &Mary are not on the Stop! Single [[per George and Andy) and the entire Christmas album has no Mary or Flo - in ‘65 so that’s at least a year earlier. To me, it’s of little consequence as I believe producers use the voices - lead, bg whatever - that they think will make the most profit for them and I respect their decisions even if I don’t always agree. I love The Andantes, but would have preferred Mary and Flo on most of Merry Christmas. I like their sound better, but sometimes it needs a boost for effect. They are more youthful and unique sounding. The Vandellas, on the other hand, have a plain, rather mundane sound to me; give me a The A’s anytime over them.

Actually F and M are on all of CwP it’s just that the andantes were added in addition. But there are no tracks without m and f. And I believe m and f are still on stop but the andantes were added and r higher in the mix and therefore more prominent.

The first released Diana only track are the Christmas ones. Then on Symphony is Yesterday [[solo) and any girl in love [[w andantes). Then on a go go Boots is solo, YCHL is Mary and Marlene. Put yourself in my place is andantes and I think as is Come and get these memories

On sing hdh andantes are added to Love Is Here and Going Down. I think it’s only andantes on there’s no stopping

[TheMotownManiac]

George and Andy said very clearly there were O N L Y Andantes on the Stop 45 mix. Louvain said she sang it with them, but she wasn’t aware there was a take without her. Someone here stated that there are a lot of C W tracks with The A’s - I believe it was Andy. Some are unrealeased - so far. Bottom line, Ross was the first front woman only.

[midnightman]

FSR, I just don't believe Louvain...

But I guess it builds on that myth...

I thought we agreed not to discuss that group in this thread. [[mad sideeyes LOL)

NOTE: I'm only joking [[halfway). :)

[floyjoy678]

Louvaine also said that Flo is on Stop! Not sure about Mary. If there's any group out of all the girl groups that used the Andantes to the extreme it was the marvelettes. I'd say they're on about 75% of their recordings.

[luke]

As I recall George indicated Andantes MAY be on Stop in the name of Love WITH Mary and Flo.

[blackguy69]

This is steering off topic again lol

[midnightman]

If gifs were allowed, I'd bring a gif of someone looking sideways at some posters... lol

My warning fell on deaf ears. WHY! LOL

[Fullfillingnessfirstfinale]

Louvaine also said that Flo is on Stop! Not sure about Mary. If there's any group out of all the girl groups that used the Andantes to the extreme it was the marvelettes. I'd say they're on about 75% of their recordings.

The early Marvelettes songs until the pink album are without the andantes, maybe first songs were "Don´t mess with bill" and "Danger"

On the other hand The Vandellas uses the Andantes very often too, on all the albums "Sugar´n´spiece", "Natural", "Black magic" and on "Watchout" too, so I think one of the last really Vandellas album could be "Dance Party" and it was 1964.

I can´t believe that Motown uses only the Andantes for Supremes Hits before 1967, because the group was the best selling female vocal group, I think they added The Andantes

[RanRan79]

I guess Berry and Co., figured it was less complicated to keep Martha out in front, rather than go through the hassle of putting Betty, Roz, and Annette through excessive vocal training. Not to mention the search for suitable material.

Or Berry and Co. thought of Rosalind, Annette, and later Betty, as nothing more than background singers to Martha Reeves. I think the truth is that they weren't viewed as a traditional group the way the other groups at the label were seen and thus their story is slightly different.

[RanRan79]

actually, Diana was the first front person of a group to sing songs without her band mates. There are songs on CW&P with and without them, Flo &Mary are not on the Stop! Single [[per George and Andy) and the entire Christmas album has no Mary or Flo - in ‘65 so that’s at least a year earlier. To me, it’s of little consequence as I believe producers use the voices - lead, bg whatever - that they think will make the most profit for them and I respect their decisions even if I don’t always agree. I love The Andantes, but would have preferred Mary and Flo on most of Merry Christmas. I like their sound better, but sometimes it needs a boost for effect. They are more youthful and unique sounding. The Vandellas, on the other hand, have a plain, rather mundane sound to me; give me a The A’s anytime over them.

Sorry Midnight, but if no one else is going to adhere to your no Supremes rule in this thread then I refuse to be bound by it as well. You can meet me out back if it's that serious though.:p

Maniac, I'm assuming from the various posts that appear in regards to Flo and Mary's participation in the "Stop!" single that the issue is debatable. Personally I think it's possible Flo and Mary aren't there and also possible that they are. It's not one of my favorites anyway, so I really don't care. However, Flo and Mary are on every cut during the C&W sessions except "Baby Doll", which was a late addition to the album, recorded during the 1964 sessions for the album, not the early 1963 sessions. Every other cut is Diana, Florence and Mary, some cuts just the three of them, other cuts with other voices "added" in [[and I don't know if anyone has ever confirmed that those additional voices belong to the Andantes).

Seems to me that Midnight's declaration of Martha being the first of the lead singers to do a song without official group members is almost correct. To my ears there isn't a Vandella to be found on "To Think You'd Hurt Me" which was recorded in either late 62 or early 63 and obviously intended for some kind of release. However, there is a demo version of "I Want a Guy" with only Diana Ross on the recording. This might qualify her for having the title, but with the song obviously never being intended for release, probably shouldn't count.

[RanRan79]

I can´t believe that Motown uses only the Andantes for Supremes Hits before 1967, because the group was the best selling female vocal group, I think they added The Andantes

When it came to the Supremes, HDH seemed to overwhelmingly favor Flo and Mary on their recordings rather than the Andantes, which makes the scenario of no Flo and Mary on "Stop" a little surprising, if that's indeed the case.

[sup_fan]

Sorry Midnight, but if no one else is going to adhere to your no Supremes rule in this thread then I refuse to be bound by it as well. You can meet me out back if it's that serious though.:p

Maniac, I'm assuming from the various posts that appear in regards to Flo and Mary's participation in the "Stop!" single that the issue is debatable. Personally I think it's possible Flo and Mary aren't there and also possible that they are. It's not one of my favorites anyway, so I really don't care. However, Flo and Mary are on every cut during the C&W sessions except "Baby Doll", which was a late addition to the album, recorded during the 1964 sessions for the album, not the early 1963 sessions. Every other cut is Diana, Florence and Mary, some cuts just the three of them, other cuts with other voices "added" in [[and I don't know if anyone has ever confirmed that those additional voices belong to the Andantes).

Seems to me that Midnight's declaration of Martha being the first of the lead singers to do a song without official group members is almost correct. To my ears there isn't a Vandella to be found on "To Think You'd Hurt Me" which was recorded in either late 62 or early 63 and obviously intended for some kind of release. However, there is a demo version of "I Want a Guy" with only Diana Ross on the recording. This might qualify her for having the title, but with the song obviously never being intended for release, probably shouldn't count.

i'm pretty sure that's Flo and Mary on Baby Doll, sure sounds like Flo when they hit that high note and her vibrato. Now there might be more Andantes than M and F but i think they're on it. Also on the "Walking, Walking, Walking" part it sounds like them too.

As for that alt version of I Want A Guy, i'm wondering if it's simply incomplete or a demo. i'm assuming at that point in time they were doing different tracks for leads and backgrounds.

[RanRan79]

i'm pretty sure that's Flo and Mary on Baby Doll, sure sounds like Flo when they hit that high note and her vibrato. Now there might be more Andantes than M and F but i think they're on it. Also on the "Walking, Walking, Walking" part it sounds like them too.

I just listened to it, which for the record I'm mad about because I hate that song. Lol Here's my new assessment: after Diana begins the song singing "Oh baby doll, ooh baby doll, he's my baby doll", those "oohs" you hear sound like they may very well belong to Flo and Mary. But when Diana sings "you know I'm gonna love him forever", those oohs suddenly become Andantes and the Andantes are the only ones singing background [[including "walking, walking, walking", though I will admit that there's a chance the "walking" is Flo and Mary) for the rest of the song until the very end when the Andantes do those very high "baby doll" repeats and it sounds like Flo and Mary return for the toned down "baby doll" repeats.

So I'll amend my initial declaration to include that "Baby Doll" is mostly the Andantes, thus concluding that Flo and Mary are indeed on every cut on the C&W album.


As for that alt version of I Want A Guy, i'm wondering if it's simply incomplete or a demo. i'm assuming at that point in time they were doing different tracks for leads and backgrounds.

I think it's a demo. I'm under the impression that during those early days of 1960-62, the leads and backgrounds were recorded together, not separately. Plus the musical accompaniment is so stripped down. I think Gordy was trying to get an idea of what the song might shape up to be.

[midnightman]

Or Berry and Co. thought of Rosalind, Annette, and later Betty, as nothing more than background singers to Martha Reeves. I think the truth is that they weren't viewed as a traditional group the way the other groups at the label were seen and thus their story is slightly different.

It does seem that way. The Marvelettes, Miracles, the most famous group in the world [[lol), the Temptations and the Four Tops were all tight with a plan in place when they joined Motown.

Martha and the Vandellas is probably the ONE group in that label of that era that you can say Berry actually put together in MOTOWN.

[sup_fan]

based on the various Motown history books, Berry was desperately in search of the "elusive female star." one that could appeal to black and white audiences, be mistress of ceremonies, cover all genres of music, etc etc. He tried to sign Freda Payne, was having some success with Mary Wells. perhaps he was experimenting and wanted to keep exploring who that perfect fit would be. berry has said that he always loved Martha's soulfulness and how she put everything into her singing.

not to be crude but maybe Berry sort of saw the women at Motown as a buffet lol. sample the talents of this one, that one, try another dish. see which really fit most perfectly with his dream of cross-over success.

People have theorized what might have happened had Mary stayed with Motown. would the Sups and Diana still have gotten the push? I think so. I think berry was exploding options and Martha was another one. he saw many things in her that he liked. but then also saw that she was quite opinionated and not as pliable as he might have liked. so she was one of his many choices. the Vandellas were just along for the ride.

[midnightman]

I think this was discussed when Martha had her Headliners and Legends special.

Martha was so determined to be a star that like many music-minded Detroit residents of that era that she would've done anything. I think when she first started, she wanted to be a Della Reese-like artist?

But since there were no solo female stars [[at that time) to emerge from Detroit [[well until Aretha later that year proved everyone wrong after signing with Columbia and initially became a nightclub star prior to her artistic breakthrough with Atlantic in the late '60s), they had to join groups.

And we know Martha was William Stevenson's secretary only because Martha showed up to an audition earlier than she was supposed to [[that's how hungry she was lmao).

As Martha tells it, she was called to do session work for Marvin and she got her friends [[her story lol) Annette, Roz and Gloria on there since they had done session work in the past for other Detroit artists in different labels [[not to mention cutting their own records as the Vels). Berry loved them together and told them to be a group.

I'm forgetting what they said on H&L that made the former Vels to Martha and the Vandellas [[because they weren't a group anymore when Martha called them to do Stubborn Kind of Fellow) but that led Gloria out and Annette and Roz went along because Berry figured Martha was the next one after Mary and Mary by then had blown up with The One Who Really Loves You, You Beat Me to the Punch and Two Lovers [[MW sold more records in Motown at the time than Marvin, the Marvelettes and the Miracles at the time).

Mary leaving Motown opening door to the "famous group in the entire world not named the Beatles or the Rolling Stones or the Beach Boys" [[lol) is a myth since they were already on the rise when Mary left.

BUT you can argue Mary cutting out of a studio session to record I Have to Let Him Go led to the rise of Martha even if it wasn't a hit.

But yeah, Martha was pretty much someone who knew what she wanted and she wasn't gonna let a man tell her what to do. Mary Wells was the same way.

[floyjoy678]

I am sometimes a bit surprised Rosalind didn't at least get a small feature over her years in the group, like a duet with Martha or something. She was the most consistent Vandella, though us die hard fans probably are the only ones who realized it.

I wish there was more footage of the original line up out there. They had such a great sound and presentation, it's a shame it ended so quickly. Annette had a strong alto and when she left the group's sound suffered. Like when Flo left the Supremes...just kidding! Just kidding...

Seriously though, I always thought Betty and Rosalind weren't in sync with each other often and their harmony wasn't so tight which is why a male singer was often in the background with them on the recordings to balance the sound out.

[TheMotownManiac]

Sorry Midnight, but if no one else is going to adhere to your no Supremes rule in this thread then I refuse to be bound by it as well. You can meet me out back if it's that serious though.:p

Maniac, I'm assuming from the various posts that appear in regards to Flo and Mary's participation in the "Stop!" single that the issue is debatable. Personally I think it's possible Flo and Mary aren't there and also possible that they are. It's not one of my favorites anyway, so I really don't care. However, Flo and Mary are on every cut during the C&W sessions except "Baby Doll", which was a late addition to the album, recorded during the 1964 sessions for the album, not the early 1963 sessions. Every other cut is Diana, Florence and Mary, some cuts just the three of them, other cuts with other voices "added" in [[and I don't know if anyone has ever confirmed that those additional voices belong to the Andantes).

Seems to me that Midnight's declaration of Martha being the first of the lead singers to do a song without official group members is almost correct. To my ears there isn't a Vandella to be found on "To Think You'd Hurt Me" which was recorded in either late 62 or early 63 and obviously intended for some kind of release. However, there is a demo version of "I Want a Guy" with only Diana Ross on the recording. This might qualify her for having the title, but with the song obviously never being intended for release, probably shouldn't count.

andy and George were quite clear it was only Andantes on the 45 mix and that Mary and Flo were added for the Stereo mix of the album. It’s my least fave of the #1s, so I don’t care either, but I appreciate and trust George and Andy 100% a few members had catatonic fits and threw shade for days over it, but it doesn’t change what is.

I ‘I hear Andantes in Back In My Arms Again and others including CW&P, but it’s conjecture. A&G are, to me, proof of Stop. I do find it fascinating who got used where and why. I heard that there are a lot of tracks from CW&P in the can with only Andantes.......so that’s interesting.

i don’t consider To Think You’d Hurt Me as counting as it was not released and we have no idea what the final result would have been.

[midnightman]

I am sometimes a bit surprised Rosalind didn't at least get a small feature over her years in the group, like a duet with Martha or something. She was the most consistent Vandella, though us die hard fans probably are the only ones who realized it.

I wish there was more footage of the original line up out there. They had such a great sound and presentation, it's a shame it ended so quickly. Annette had a strong alto and when she left the group's sound suffered. Like when Flo left the Supremes...just kidding! Just kidding...

Seriously though, I always thought Betty and Rosalind weren't in sync with each other often and their harmony wasn't so tight which is why a male singer was often in the background with them on the recordings to balance the sound out.

Weren't there rumors Betty only replaced Annette because they favored each other?

[marv2]

Weren't there rumors Betty only replaced Annette because they favored each other?

No! Betty replaced Annette because she had gotten pregnant.

[RanRan79]

andy and George were quite clear it was only Andantes on the 45 mix and that Mary and Flo were added for the Stereo mix of the album. It’s my least fave of the #1s, so I don’t care either, but I appreciate and trust George and Andy 100% a few members had catatonic fits and threw shade for days over it, but it doesn’t change what is.

I ‘I hear Andantes in Back In My Arms Again and others including CW&P, but it’s conjecture. A&G are, to me, proof of Stop. I do find it fascinating who got used where and why. I heard that there are a lot of tracks from CW&P in the can with only Andantes.......so that’s interesting.

i don’t consider To Think You’d Hurt Me as counting as it was not released and we have no idea what the final result would have been.

I don't hear anyone other than Flo and Mary on "Back". Take a listen to this Funk Bros/Flo/Mary only "Back In My Arms Again" and tell me if you hear more than two voices.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zOKO3BkDm3s

As for C&W, I was under the impression that we had gotten all of the session cuts, but it would be interesting to know that there are vaulted versions of the songs with just Diana and the Andantes.

"To Think You Would Hurt Me" was completed and released in 1963 on Martha and the Vandellas' first album. "I Want a Guy" demo was the one that was never released [[or intended for release). Did you mix them up?

[RanRan79]

Weren't there rumors Betty only replaced Annette because they favored each other?

Doubtful as I don't think either woman looks anything alike.

[floyjoy678]

Weren't there rumors Betty only replaced Annette because they favored each other?

Yes that is true, in fact Martha even writes about it in her book but she says that she did not choose Betty for that reason when it came down to it. However I don't see the resemblance between the two at all.

[kenneth]

Weren't there rumors Betty only replaced Annette because they favored each other?

In one of the early books about Motown, maybe it was Benjaminson's, Cindy Birdsong was referred to as a "Flo lookalike." I never thought they looked anything alike though physically they were similar in height/figure I think. As if hardcore fans who knew the backup singers well would ever be fooled anyway...!

[RanRan79]

Yes that is true, in fact Martha even writes about it in her book but she says that she did not choose Betty for that reason when it came down to it. However I don't see the resemblance between the two at all.

It's been eons since I read Martha's book so this factoid escaped me. For the life of me I don't get how anyone could see a resemblance between the two.

[midnightman]

No! Betty replaced Annette because she had gotten pregnant.

I know that part! I'm just wondering if they just found Betty because she didn't look too different from Annette? There's always another reason, Marv.

[midnightman]

Yes that is true, in fact Martha even writes about it in her book but she says that she did not choose Betty for that reason when it came down to it. However I don't see the resemblance between the two at all.

How was she picked? I don't have her book so that's why I ask.

[RanRan79]

In one of the early books about Motown, maybe it was Benjaminson's, Cindy Birdsong was referred to as a "Flo lookalike." I never thought they looked anything alike though physically they were similar in height/figure I think. As if hardcore fans who knew the backup singers well would ever be fooled anyway...!

Cindy has always been referred to as a Flo lookalike. When you look at their faces, clearly they are two different women with different facial features. But they had a similar body type and shape and complexion. I think Gordy wanted to make sure that the transition from Florence to a new girl as it related to the physical appearance of the group was as smooth as possible. He never would have gotten Sarah Dash to take Flo's place, despite Sarah being the stronger singer between she and Cindy. That kind of physical change would have been too in your face.

[marv2]

I know that part! I'm just wondering if they just found Betty because she didn't look too different from Annette? There's always another reason, Marv.

I know both of them. They do not look anything alike. They are not even the same height. .

[motony]

Betty Kelly was already friends with Martha & Roz and she could wear Annettes' stage clothes with little adjustment. I think all the groups records sounded the best when it was the actual groups on the record. I don't like "perfection", I like "real". So what if the Marvelettes were not "harmonius" they were real & GREAT LIVE, and to me LIVE is where it counts. Motown was a business & they wanted those groups on the road making money, that's why around '66 they only wanted to fly the lead singer back to Detroit to record. They had flown Martha Roz & Annette back for the Heatwave LP, as they were really out there continually on the road at that time.

[RanRan79]

Betty Kelly was already friends with Martha & Roz and she could wear Annettes' stage clothes with little adjustment. I think all the groups records sounded the best when it was the actual groups on the record. I don't like "perfection", I like "real". So what if the Marvelettes were not "harmonius" they were real & GREAT LIVE, and to me LIVE is where it counts. Motown was a business & they wanted those groups on the road making money, that's why around '66 they only wanted to fly the lead singer back to Detroit to record. They had flown Martha Roz & Annette back for the Heatwave LP, as they were really out there continually on the road at that time.

If one doesn't care about harmony then a "so what" in regards to a group that wasn't good at it makes sense. However, I am a huge fan of vocal group harmonies- which is why I love doowop so much- so the fact that the Marvelettes sound to me as if they lag behind their labelmates is a point worth pointing out. I'm sure Motown loved the fact that the Marvelettes were crowd pleasers, but don't get it twisted, Motown loved record selling even more.

[TheMotownManiac]

based on the various Motown history books, Berry was desperately in search of the "elusive female star." one that could appeal to black and white audiences, be mistress of ceremonies, cover all genres of music, etc etc. He tried to sign Freda Payne, was having some success with Mary Wells. perhaps he was experimenting and wanted to keep exploring who that perfect fit would be. berry has said that he always loved Martha's soulfulness and how she put everything into her singing.

not to be crude but maybe Berry sort of saw the women at Motown as a buffet lol. sample the talents of this one, that one, try another dish. see which really fit most perfectly with his dream of cross-over success.

People have theorized what might have happened had Mary stayed with Motown. would the Sups and Diana still have gotten the push? I think so. I think berry was exploding options and Martha was another one. he saw many things in her that he liked. but then also saw that she was quite opinionated and not as pliable as he might have liked. so she was one of his many choices. the Vandellas were just along for the ride.

i don’t think Berry ever thought of Martha as his cross-over possibility. Her voice was too soulful, she had no stage presence or real style and with the better distribution in 1963 for albums, she sold very poorly with her first two, and not impressive with her others. General audiences were not responding to her sound enough to buy an album. Queen Mary, on the other hand, went top 50 with her Two Lovers album, while Heat Wave peaked at 125. I think Berry would still have worked with Queen Mary while working the same as he did with The Supremes. Once the WDOLG album took off out if the gate, and Liverpool outselling everything else on the label, he knew he had found his person. Mary, great as she was, didn’t have ‘it’

Martha certainly developed into an entertainer, but she was quite plain for years. That Ed Sullivan clip and Ready Steady Go pretty much tell the story. She could always sing, however - and how!

[Circa 1824]

Diana and Martha professionally lived on different sides of the tracks. [[They still do.). It was obvious to Berry and everyone else.

[motony]

LOL, Motown did NOT promote the Supremes until it was factual that Mary Wells had left the company. Rock N Roll albums did not sell well [[besides Elvis, Ricky Nelson ect) until 1964 and the Beatles. 45's were KING and the backbone of the Rock/Soul Music Business. Ask anybody that worked at Motown in early 60's, Diana Ross wanted to be Mary Wells.Next to Mary, Martha was the best female singer they had. An like Mary Wells, Martha Reeves ALWAYS [[at Motown) knew how to work a stage and had great rappor & charisma all before Mrs. Powell came on board.

[RanRan79]

i don’t think Berry ever thought of Martha as his cross-over possibility. Her voice was too soulful, she had no stage presence or real style and with the better distribution in 1963 for albums, she sold very poorly with her first two, and not impressive with her others. General audiences were not responding to her sound enough to buy an album. Queen Mary, on the other hand, went top 50 with her Two Lovers album, while Heat Wave peaked at 125. I think Berry would still have worked with Queen Mary while working the same as he did with The Supremes. Once the WDOLG album took off out if the gate, and Liverpool outselling everything else on the label, he knew he had found his person. Mary, great as she was, didn’t have ‘it’

Martha certainly developed into an entertainer, but she was quite plain for years. That Ed Sullivan clip and Ready Steady Go pretty much tell the story. She could always sing, however - and how!

I agree here. Martha is great on record, vocally great live, but watching her perform she just didn't have the performance personality. Personally I don't think Mary Wells had it either, but vocally there was something there that Gordy thought could help him reach the other side. Diana, Brenda, Wanda, Gladys K, I think this is where he should have placed his bets.

[RanRan79]

LOL, Motown did NOT promote the Supremes until it was factual that Mary Wells had left the company. Rock N Roll albums did not sell well [[besides Elvis, Ricky Nelson ect) until 1964 and the Beatles. 45's were KING and the backbone of the Rock/Soul Music Business. Ask anybody that worked at Motown in early 60's, Diana Ross wanted to be Mary Wells.Next to Mary, Martha was the best female singer they had. An like Mary Wells, Martha Reeves ALWAYS [[at Motown) knew how to work a stage and had great rappor & charisma all before Mrs. Powell came on board.

Motown had been promoting the Supremes since they signed to the label in 1961. Mary Wells leaving or staying wasn't going to have any bearing on them reaching their destiny. The public heard "Where Did Our Love Go", loved it and the rest is history. They were destined to be stars, just like the Temptations, and Gordy knew it, that's why he kept both groups on the roster despite years worth of records that didn't knock the public out.

[midnightman]

Betty Kelly was already friends with Martha & Roz and she could wear Annettes' stage clothes with little adjustment. I think all the groups records sounded the best when it was the actual groups on the record. I don't like "perfection", I like "real". So what if the Marvelettes were not "harmonius" they were real & GREAT LIVE, and to me LIVE is where it counts. Motown was a business & they wanted those groups on the road making money, that's why around '66 they only wanted to fly the lead singer back to Detroit to record. They had flown Martha Roz & Annette back for the Heatwave LP, as they were really out there continually on the road at that time.

Thanks. Makes perfect sense. I had to look at pics of Annette and Betty and y'all are right, they looked nothing alike.

[marv2]

LOL, Motown did NOT promote the Supremes until it was factual that Mary Wells had left the company. Rock N Roll albums did not sell well [[besides Elvis, Ricky Nelson ect) until 1964 and the Beatles. 45's were KING and the backbone of the Rock/Soul Music Business. Ask anybody that worked at Motown in early 60's, Diana Ross wanted to be Mary Wells.Next to Mary, Martha was the best female singer they had. An like Mary Wells, Martha Reeves ALWAYS [[at Motown) knew how to work a stage and had great rappor & charisma all before Mrs. Powell came on board.

That is true. Martha learned from watching Della Reese. She even sounded like Della with her stage patter back in the early days of the Motortown Revue.

[midnightman]

Motown had been promoting the Supremes since they signed to the label in 1961. Mary Wells leaving or staying wasn't going to have any bearing on them reaching their destiny. The public heard "Where Did Our Love Go", loved it and the rest is history. They were destined to be stars, just like the Temptations, and Gordy knew it, that's why he kept both groups on the roster despite years worth of records that didn't knock the public out.

They were the first all female group signed to Motown so it was obvious they were trying hard to get a hit out of them before finally striking gold at the end of 1963 [[but the same can be said of ALL the acts they signed). When did Motown hire Cholly Atkins and Maxine Powell? 1964, right? By that point, the Marvelettes, Mary Wells and Martha and the Vandellas were already popular.

[marv2]

I agree here. Martha is great on record, vocally great live, but watching her perform she just didn't have the performance personality. Personally I don't think Mary Wells had it either, but vocally there was something there that Gordy thought could help him reach the other side. Diana, Brenda, Wanda, Gladys K, I think this is where he should have placed his bets.

Mary Wells would burn up a stage. My parents and aunts use to go see her:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H3wSdxJXCxo

[midnightman]

When I saw the Motown 40 documentary, they said Mary & the Marvelettes were "too rock and roll" for what they were trying to achieve [[I know a few Marvelettes talked about how when they took the stage, they used to "sweat it up" and there were photos that showed it).

But I love that clip of Mary performing Bye Bye Baby, she was one hell of a performer.

[marv2]

They were the first all female group signed to Motown so it was obvious they were trying hard to get a hit out of them before finally striking gold at the end of 1963 [[but the same can be said of ALL the acts they signed). When did Motown hire Cholly Atkins and Maxine Powell? 1964, right? By that point, the Marvelettes, Mary Wells and Martha and the Vandellas were already popular.

Also keep in mind that the revenue acts like the Miracles, Marvelette and Mary Wells allowed Motown to establish Artist Development. Those early acts like the Contours had to make up their own stage acts from scratch!

[marv2]

Mary Wells was the total package at that time. This is from after she left Motown:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9vRu8cqHB3M

[marv2]

They were singing LIVE!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6uYINIxRvHs

[midnightman]

Also keep in mind that the revenue acts like the Miracles, Marvelette and Mary Wells allowed Motown to establish Artist Development. Those early acts like the Contours had to make up their own stage acts from scratch!

That IS true! I didn't even think of it. Marvin too. Those four were the early big stars of Motown [[funny how their names all started with "M").

The Contours were the only Motown act to do what James Brown and 'em were doing. Berry didn't want that lmao [[that used to bother James lol)

[marv2]

That IS true! I didn't even think of it. Marvin too. Those four were the early big stars of Motown [[funny how their names all started with "M").

The Contours were the only Motown act to do what James Brown and 'em were doing. Berry didn't want that lmao [[that used to bother James lol)

Those acts were the ones making money for Motown allowing to "groom" their future acts with Artist Development training,etc . The Contours did come off rough but all of them were rough [[in more ways than you could imagine LOL!). So when people compare them to acts like the Supremes later on, just know that the Supremes were also rough on stage in the beginning.

[midnightman]

Yeah, all of them were "diamonds in the rough" as Maxine called them.

[marv2]

Yeah, all of them were "diamonds in the rough" as Maxine called them.

She was right. I miss her and Mrs. Esther Gordy Edwards a lot! Mrs. Edwards was like a grandmother to me. The sweetest lady ever!

[reese]

How was she picked? I don't have her book so that's why I ask.

In an interview with A TOUCH OF CLASSIC SOUL, Betty said she was called to a meeting by Berry Gordy's secretary. When she arrived, Martha and Rosalind were sitting outside his office. When she spoke with Berry, it hit her that she was going to be pulled out of the Velevelettes and put into the Vandellas for a trial. She talked it over with Velvelette Cal Gill, who encouraged her to go for it. Betty went on to address the rumor that she was chosen to replace Annette because they looked alike by saying that they didn't but she thought Berry was looking for a similar skin tone and height, so that the change wouldn't be noticed too much.

In her book, Martha tells a totally different story. She wrote that the Velvelettes had broken up and Betty let her overhear her telling someone else that she was no longer in in the group. As Annette was leaving, Martha asked would she consider being a Vandella, and Betty responded that she didn't know, as she was considering going back to Kalamazoo because of her living conditions. Martha offered to let Betty stay at her house until she made enough money to get her own place. Betty thought it over and joined the group.

[RanRan79]

Mary Wells would burn up a stage. My parents and aunts use to go see her:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H3wSdxJXCxo

You're right. I haven't seen this in so long. Forgot all about it. I can definitely see why Gordy put his eggs in her basket.

[RanRan79]

They were singing LIVE!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6uYINIxRvHs

Again, they sound great, but no surprise that Gordy didn't bet the farm on Martha.

[midnightman]

In an interview with A TOUCH OF CLASSIC SOUL, Betty said she was called to a meeting by Berry Gordy's secretary. When she arrived, Martha and Rosalind were sitting outside his office. When she spoke with Berry, it hit her that she was going to be pulled out of the Velevelettes and put into the Vandellas for a trial. She talked it over with Velvelette Cal Gill, who encouraged her to go for it. Betty went on to address the rumor that she was chosen to replace Annette because they looked alike by saying that they didn't but she thought Berry was looking for a similar skin tone and height, so that the change wouldn't be noticed too much.

In her book, Martha tells a totally different story. She wrote that the Velvelettes had broken up and Betty let her overhear her telling someone else that she was no longer in in the group. As Annette was leaving, Martha asked would she consider being a Vandella, and Betty responded that she didn't know, as she was considering going back to Kalamazoo because of her living conditions. Martha offered to let Betty stay at her house until she made enough money to get her own place. Betty thought it over and joined the group.

Thanks. :)

Martha & Betty have VERY different stories!

[TheMotownManiac]

LOL, Motown did NOT promote the Supremes until it was factual that Mary Wells had left the company. Rock N Roll albums did not sell well [[besides Elvis, Ricky Nelson ect) until 1964 and the Beatles. 45's were KING and the backbone of the Rock/Soul Music Business. Ask anybody that worked at Motown in early 60's, Diana Ross wanted to be Mary Wells.Next to Mary, Martha was the best female singer they had. An like Mary Wells, Martha Reeves ALWAYS [[at Motown) knew how to work a stage and had great rappor & charisma all before Mrs. Powell came on board.

I think Motown was always promoting them because he knew she had something. They had a lot of records that did nothing, but he kept on. And let’s face it, WDOLG wasn’t even #1 yet before he flew them home to record follow ups. Baby Love hadn’t hit yet and they already were doing Liverpool.

‘’Actually, Motown had two successful albums in 1963. Released in May, Stevie went to #1, released in early January, Queen Mary to #49. By fall of ‘63, I think Heat Wave should have done better and, it turns out, it was an indication of the general appeal of Marthas voice because she’d never have a hit studio album - despite hit singles on them. Watch Out! Was a big disappointment with two top tens at the height of their popularity. The following fall, their live album was a bomb, outsold even by Jr Walker.

As for Marthas stage abilities, it’s all opinion. Please send me a link to one engaging performance on tv before Mike Douglas in 69. I love Martha, and prefer her to Mary, but she didn’t have it to go big and many tried.